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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote: Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 Agree, zvt so imbalanced that mma actually won a map just cause Life didn't scout at all overdroned and got a shitton of damage done to him by drops. Stim should be removed to balance zvt better. | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
On November 09 2014 18:50 Ghanburighan wrote: This thread is now moot until Lotv. What? There is no better point to discuss the core balance problems in Heart of the Swarm than now. Specially since blizzard is willing to make drastic changes. IMO they are going to the right direction, including some stuff discussed here before. Nerfed warpgates and overcharge allow blizzard to make early protoss units stronger, making the race less dependant on slow tech transitions. Carrier, BCs and Swarmhosts got a new design and now they won't just chill in a deathball. Zerg got splash damage with ranged tech and a way to deal with forcefields. Immortals will not shut down mech TvP. Economy changes makes 3base turtle play not viable. Those are all good changes that must be tweaked and implemented with other changes, but they should pass. | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On November 09 2014 19:48 Superbanana wrote: What? There is no better point to discuss the core balance problems in Heart of the Swarm than now. Specially since blizzard is willing to make drastic changes. IMO they are going to the right direction, including some stuff discussed here before. Nerfed warpgates and overcharge allow blizzard to make early protoss units stronger, making the race less dependant on slow tech transitions. Carrier, BCs and Swarmhosts got a new design and now they won't just chill in a deathball. Zerg got splash damage with ranged tech and a way to deal with forcefields. Immortals will not shut down mech TvP. Economy changes makes 3base turtle play not viable. Those are all good changes that must be tweaked and implemented with other changes, but they should pass. 3 base turtling ain't exactly viable right now either :D. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote: Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 So bitter. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust? SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On November 09 2014 20:32 Charoisaur wrote: People complain about 2 rax and in the meantime life wins blizzcon by banelingbusting nearly every game. If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust? SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? I think people are generally fine with baneling busts, because 1. they are scoutable, 2. can be held relatively effectively with dilligent sim city and 3. because they cost so much in terms of gas. EDIT: Also, once they are made early on, you're almost commited to the attack, in most situations. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 09 2014 20:32 Charoisaur wrote: People complain about 2 rax and in the meantime life wins blizzcon by banelingbusting nearly every game. If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust? SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? TaeJa played: standard proxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatch greedy 3base Life played: standard proxy hatch cheese standard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failed proxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bust MMA played: 2base allin 2base allin 2base allin 2base allin standard Life played: standard baneling bust standard standard baneling bust | ||
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Swisslink
2958 Posts
On November 09 2014 21:04 Big J wrote: TaeJa played: standard proxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatch greedy 3base Life played: standard proxy hatch cheese standard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failed proxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bust MMA played: 2base allin 2base allin 2base allin 2base allin standard Life played: standard baneling bust standard standard baneling bust I'd consider the second game against MMA a "counterbust" as well. I don't know if he really intended to go for the all-in initially or if he just built everything up to defend and thought "oh... well... might just kill him". But yeah, Life didn't play too cheesy imo, he just countered what the Terran did and busted through afterwards to avoid the Terran coming back into the game. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On November 09 2014 21:04 Big J wrote: TaeJa played: standard proxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatch greedy 3base Life played: standard proxy hatch cheese standard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failed proxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bust MMA played: 2base allin 2base allin 2base allin 2base allin standard Life played: standard baneling bust standard standard baneling bust I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote: I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins ^_^ 2rax has had quite the road, and is far from allin nowadays. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote: I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins Half of Life's baneling bust were reactions to bad plays. One was plainly lucky that MMA moved out unsieged in that moment and didn't look on top of that. On top of that most of them we are talking about various builds here, not about "a baneling bust build order". I'm not defending whiners here, but your comment is plainly uneducated. For example the last bust vs TaeJa was hardly allin. It would not have been a good spot if the bust had been defended, but he had 3 mining bases with baneling speed 1-1, 2-2 immidiatly queued up behind, great creep spread. All he was missing was a spire and a few drones. The only baneling bust he did which was a plain Build Order like 11/11 is was the last one against MMA. | ||
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Swisslink
2958 Posts
On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote: I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins Well, if you just use "Baneling Bust" as a general term... every Bio Push is the same as well, right? Doesn't matter if it's a 2-Rax, Marine+Hellbat, Parade Push... everything's the same ! And you said Life won almost all the games with a Baneling Bust; which is kinda true (well... how should you kill a Terran without Banelings? And if you kill him, it's always a Baneling BUST according to your definition), but most of these pushes weren't all-in at all. And therefore the comparison with the 2-Rax is just... not that good. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On November 09 2014 23:56 DinoMight wrote: Life outplayed MMA in every way imaginable. His win had nothing to do with balance. I mean, the single Zergling on Overgrowth to fake that he was just scouting the 3rd IMMEDIATELY before the Baneling bust.. brilliant. It's also so he can avoid walking face first into 6 hellions with all his lings and with a bit of luck (like in that game) hide the lings entirely till the last possible moment. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
On November 09 2014 23:56 DinoMight wrote: Life outplayed MMA in every way imaginable. His win had nothing to do with balance. I mean, the single Zergling on Overgrowth to fake that he was just scouting the 3rd IMMEDIATELY before the Baneling bust.. brilliant. It's not just that. Just EVERYTHING came together for Life. The opponents he had to go through were just insane. If anyone deserved this Blizzcon win, it was him. Only other guy would have been Taeja, but Life got even him and did what freaking soO could not. | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote: I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins But... nobody here complained about 2rax T_T If something, zergs are complaining about standard play, and gladly agree that zerg got those strong all ins to avoid a too standard game. edit, about recent discussion: Life finds a way, low muta count and some strong ling bane timings/busts seens to be a strong way to play the matchup. soO is going for this type of composition but not with Life's mentality, cutting drones and commiting hard. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
On November 10 2014 00:59 Thieving Magpie wrote: Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn  Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On November 10 2014 01:09 Doublemint wrote: And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. Which is why I used the same argument when Maru was the only one winning things earlier this year. | ||
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