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On November 11 2014 22:01 pure.Wasted wrote:
In case anyone's curious, the first three Hot6ix groups results are in.
In games: 21:20 for Terran. In series: 7:14 for Zerg.
Obviously we're missing the most important factor, the context of what those games actually looked like. But the numbers alone aren't troubling, at the very least.
Interesting we ended with:
Qualified from Online Qualifier (10)
1 Zerg, 4 Terran , 5 Protoss
Edit: ahh I can see why, theres some pretty low level players there.
I was very surprised Life was able to mindfuck opponents to win blizzcon.
http://aligulac.com/players/5011-Guilty/
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On November 14 2014 02:35 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2014 22:01 pure.Wasted wrote:
In case anyone's curious, the first three Hot6ix groups results are in.
In games: 21:20 for Terran. In series: 7:14 for Zerg.
Obviously we're missing the most important factor, the context of what those games actually looked like. But the numbers alone aren't troubling, at the very least. Interesting we ended with: Qualified from Online Qualifier (10) 1 Zerg, 4 Terran , 5 Protoss Edit: ahh I can see why, theres some pretty low level players there. I was very surprised Life was able to mindfuck opponents to win blizzcon. http://aligulac.com/players/5011-Guilty/
Quickly glanced over the results as well as the overall winrates. All 3matchups were within 50+/-2%.
The top Zergs fell to other top-players from all 3 races, not really anything to see here besides standard deviation.
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On November 14 2014 02:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2014 02:35 sibs wrote:On November 11 2014 22:01 pure.Wasted wrote:
In case anyone's curious, the first three Hot6ix groups results are in.
In games: 21:20 for Terran. In series: 7:14 for Zerg.
Obviously we're missing the most important factor, the context of what those games actually looked like. But the numbers alone aren't troubling, at the very least. Interesting we ended with: Qualified from Online Qualifier (10) 1 Zerg, 4 Terran , 5 Protoss Edit: ahh I can see why, theres some pretty low level players there. I was very surprised Life was able to mindfuck opponents to win blizzcon. http://aligulac.com/players/5011-Guilty/ Quickly glanced over the results as well as the overall winrates. All 3matchups were within 50+/-2%. The top Zergs fell to other top-players from all 3 races, not really anything to see here besides standard deviation.
Yup. Here are the full results:
TvZ: 35-34 in games and 12-21 in series.
ZvP: 27-27.
PvT: 27:22. (45%)
It seems very improbable that with a record in series like that, Zerg should only get 1 player through the qualifiers, but they did. Looking at all the Zergs who had a legitimate chance of qualifying for, say, Ro32 Code S this season, they lost a combined 9 series to Protoss, 5 to fellow Zergs, and 5 to Terran. There were 30 Terrans at this event and 27 Zerg, so the 5 critical ZvZs is actually pretty bad luck, as there were only 4 critical TvTs despite more Terrans in attendance.
Not a lot we can conclude from games we haven't seen, but the numbers are, if nothing else, very encouraging.
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Watching mc vs Taeja was just sad.
MC played superbly. But bio too strong.
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On November 16 2014 05:28 Samx wrote:
Watching mc vs Taeja was just sad.
MC played superbly. But bio too strong.
Yeah, bio is strong when you allin, don't kill your opponent, don't get upgrades other than blink, delay your splash forever (and can't build up a critical mass of it), and consistently trade cost-inefficiently with only a portion of your entire army.
That kind of counterswing pressure is part of an allin like that. You sacrifice tech in exchange for army and gateways, and as a result, Terran is miles ahead in tech. If Terran bio didn't trade efficiently immediately after an attack like that then there would be something wrong. MC didn't kill Taeja, Taeja was left with an advantage in tech and subsequently army, and he pushed it to a win. If he couldn't do that then that would be a sign that Protoss would be OP. An attack that strong has clear weaknesses, and for this, it is namely that you will lose to terran bio until you get splash out. And if you delay it like MC, it doesn't turn out that well.
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On November 16 2014 05:28 Samx wrote:
Watching mc vs Taeja was just sad.
MC played superbly. But bio too strong.
If by "superbly" you mean a failed all-in. Then yes I agree.
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On November 16 2014 07:11 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 05:28 Samx wrote:
Watching mc vs Taeja was just sad.
MC played superbly. But bio too strong. If by "superbly" you mean a failed all-in. Then yes I agree.
The one super-allin he did he won with 
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On November 16 2014 07:13 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 07:11 royalroadweed wrote:On November 16 2014 05:28 Samx wrote:
Watching mc vs Taeja was just sad.
MC played superbly. But bio too strong. If by "superbly" you mean a failed all-in. Then yes I agree. The one super-allin he did he won with
Yes he did. Guess its ok to use that series to bitch about balance then. MC is literally x10 the player taeja is herp derp.
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If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
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On November 16 2014 05:28 Samx wrote:
Watching mc vs Taeja was just sad.
MC played superbly. But bio too strong.
He was actually trading pretty well but lost both games economically
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On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
For game 3 it was all about Taeja's control in the fight. Its not like he just a-moved. Would be interesting to see how many other terrans could win with that push, I'm guessing almost none. Of course, with MC's tech, it all came down to Taeja's control, nothing MC could do really.
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On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good.
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On November 10 2014 21:18 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i think the most frustrating thing about ZvT atm isnt so much its unwinable but thats its very difficult to end the game if terran doesnt want it to
3/3 muta/ling bane can definatley hold its own on creep
but off of creep or trying to push into bases against pre-laid mines? not gona happen
makes it a bit annoying to have suhc a mobile army composition but with no ability to push unless the terran messes up ( ie steps onto creep where you can take a good fight
Yeah exactly, you need to stay patient and keep your advantage, while as soon as Terran gets an advantage vs Zerg he kills you 100%. If you attack and Terran can hold with a limited army/PF/WM/repair, and while you was ahead with superior army, you fail behind and 100% lose.
The only way you can play is defensive, while you limit the number of his base, and you wait until he has no money anymore. Or when he attacks, you trade base, kill his production building, while you sacrify your base, but you massing thousands banelings. If you manage to clean his army even uncost effectivly, he can't rebuild and you have won.
But frontal assault only work if you just clean his army and you rush in his base, before he can rebuild, but you have only a 5-10s window.
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On November 16 2014 18:54 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 21:18 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i think the most frustrating thing about ZvT atm isnt so much its unwinable but thats its very difficult to end the game if terran doesnt want it to
3/3 muta/ling bane can definatley hold its own on creep
but off of creep or trying to push into bases against pre-laid mines? not gona happen
makes it a bit annoying to have suhc a mobile army composition but with no ability to push unless the terran messes up ( ie steps onto creep where you can take a good fight Yeah exactly, you need to stay patient and keep your advantage, while as soon as Terran gets an advantage vs Zerg he kills you 100%. If you attack and Terran can hold with a limited army/PF/WM/repair, and while you was ahead with superior army, you fail behind and 100% lose. The only way you can play is defensive, while you limit the number of his base, and you wait until he has no money anymore. Or when he attacks, you trade base, kill his production building, while you sacrify your base, but you massing thousands banelings. If you manage to clean his army even uncost effectivly, he can't rebuild and you have won. But frontal assault only work if you just clean his army and you rush in his base, before he can rebuild, but you have only a 5-10s window.
3/3 muta ling definitely can't push into terran's base with mine pre-laid, bio with 3/3 upgrade, turrets and thors, but I'm pretty sure the zerg can tech switch to swarm hosts to start seiging the terran in that case? If the game has been even I don't see a problem of zerg slowly switching tech to swarm hosts. Mutas and lings can keep the terran in the base (lings can even free up supply) while you switch tech to swarm hosts.
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On November 16 2014 19:18 Estancia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 18:54 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 10 2014 21:18 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i think the most frustrating thing about ZvT atm isnt so much its unwinable but thats its very difficult to end the game if terran doesnt want it to
3/3 muta/ling bane can definatley hold its own on creep
but off of creep or trying to push into bases against pre-laid mines? not gona happen
makes it a bit annoying to have suhc a mobile army composition but with no ability to push unless the terran messes up ( ie steps onto creep where you can take a good fight Yeah exactly, you need to stay patient and keep your advantage, while as soon as Terran gets an advantage vs Zerg he kills you 100%. If you attack and Terran can hold with a limited army/PF/WM/repair, and while you was ahead with superior army, you fail behind and 100% lose. The only way you can play is defensive, while you limit the number of his base, and you wait until he has no money anymore. Or when he attacks, you trade base, kill his production building, while you sacrify your base, but you massing thousands banelings. If you manage to clean his army even uncost effectivly, he can't rebuild and you have won. But frontal assault only work if you just clean his army and you rush in his base, before he can rebuild, but you have only a 5-10s window. 3/3 muta ling definitely can't push into terran's base with mine pre-laid, bio with 3/3 upgrade, turrets and thors, but I'm pretty sure the zerg can tech switch to swarm hosts to start seiging the terran in that case? If the game has been even I don't see a problem of zerg slowly switching tech to swarm hosts. Mutas and lings can keep the terran in the base (lings can even free up supply) while you switch tech to swarm hosts. same problem as teching to ultras, brood lords or infestors. your mobility suffers and cheap terran drops/runbys shred your economy
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On November 16 2014 19:58 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 19:18 Estancia wrote:On November 16 2014 18:54 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 10 2014 21:18 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i think the most frustrating thing about ZvT atm isnt so much its unwinable but thats its very difficult to end the game if terran doesnt want it to
3/3 muta/ling bane can definatley hold its own on creep
but off of creep or trying to push into bases against pre-laid mines? not gona happen
makes it a bit annoying to have suhc a mobile army composition but with no ability to push unless the terran messes up ( ie steps onto creep where you can take a good fight Yeah exactly, you need to stay patient and keep your advantage, while as soon as Terran gets an advantage vs Zerg he kills you 100%. If you attack and Terran can hold with a limited army/PF/WM/repair, and while you was ahead with superior army, you fail behind and 100% lose. The only way you can play is defensive, while you limit the number of his base, and you wait until he has no money anymore. Or when he attacks, you trade base, kill his production building, while you sacrify your base, but you massing thousands banelings. If you manage to clean his army even uncost effectivly, he can't rebuild and you have won. But frontal assault only work if you just clean his army and you rush in his base, before he can rebuild, but you have only a 5-10s window. 3/3 muta ling definitely can't push into terran's base with mine pre-laid, bio with 3/3 upgrade, turrets and thors, but I'm pretty sure the zerg can tech switch to swarm hosts to start seiging the terran in that case? If the game has been even I don't see a problem of zerg slowly switching tech to swarm hosts. Mutas and lings can keep the terran in the base (lings can even free up supply) while you switch tech to swarm hosts. same problem as teching to ultras, brood lords or infestors. your mobility suffers and cheap terran drops/runbys shred your economy
This is why i always hated the medvac speed boost, you're bottle necked into going muta every single game
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On November 16 2014 20:09 VegaMatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 19:58 brickrd wrote:On November 16 2014 19:18 Estancia wrote:On November 16 2014 18:54 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 10 2014 21:18 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i think the most frustrating thing about ZvT atm isnt so much its unwinable but thats its very difficult to end the game if terran doesnt want it to
3/3 muta/ling bane can definatley hold its own on creep
but off of creep or trying to push into bases against pre-laid mines? not gona happen
makes it a bit annoying to have suhc a mobile army composition but with no ability to push unless the terran messes up ( ie steps onto creep where you can take a good fight Yeah exactly, you need to stay patient and keep your advantage, while as soon as Terran gets an advantage vs Zerg he kills you 100%. If you attack and Terran can hold with a limited army/PF/WM/repair, and while you was ahead with superior army, you fail behind and 100% lose. The only way you can play is defensive, while you limit the number of his base, and you wait until he has no money anymore. Or when he attacks, you trade base, kill his production building, while you sacrify your base, but you massing thousands banelings. If you manage to clean his army even uncost effectivly, he can't rebuild and you have won. But frontal assault only work if you just clean his army and you rush in his base, before he can rebuild, but you have only a 5-10s window. 3/3 muta ling definitely can't push into terran's base with mine pre-laid, bio with 3/3 upgrade, turrets and thors, but I'm pretty sure the zerg can tech switch to swarm hosts to start seiging the terran in that case? If the game has been even I don't see a problem of zerg slowly switching tech to swarm hosts. Mutas and lings can keep the terran in the base (lings can even free up supply) while you switch tech to swarm hosts. same problem as teching to ultras, brood lords or infestors. your mobility suffers and cheap terran drops/runbys shred your economy This is why i always hated the medvac speed boost, you're bottle necked into going muta every single game
yeah. its possible to play defensive with mass ling/bane and/or infestors and/or static defense in the midgame but terran doesn't get weak in the late game and you can't really ever counterpush without ling/bane/muta or roaches which is necessary in the matchup to prevent terran from rallying before you have more banelings
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It's like you haven't seen a high level TvZ in the last couple of months...
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On November 16 2014 20:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
It's like you haven't seen a high level TvZ in the last couple of months...
you mean all those games Z went muta or did all ins? i havent seen many ling bane infestor games (actually none...) or roach hydra recently or ling bane SH pr ling bane hydra or even roach bane (other than all in). so yes its always mutas because bio with medivacs in dropships are that potent. no balance complain there its just boring to watch and play and with buffed thors, mines and hellbat (timings) ling bane muta got even worse.
just hope in lotv this gets fixed and losing bases becomes not that big of a deal as long as you can safe your workers. especially since less minerals per base will mean you cant afford 20 spines/spores per base to be safe from just 2 medivacs with 16 marines.
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On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good.
Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : )
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EPT
