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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
But anyway - I was just explaining my reasoning for looking at top players for balance, I don't actually care much to discuss ZvT balance. Of course as time passes, Zergs get better and maybe we just haven't given Z enough time to adapt. And with LotV coming out soon this is all pretty moot anyway. The only thing that remains relevant is what we use to determine imbalance. I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 18 2014 07:24 DinoMight wrote: Agree that the patch in August SHOULD trigger a big change in win rates, but this patch was a reversion of the widow mine buff... Zerg players already had experience playing against this. I actually think the combination of the Hellbat buff AND this WM buff was the biggest problem. But anyway - I was just explaining my reasoning for looking at top players for balance, I don't actually care much to discuss ZvT balance. Of course as time passes, Zergs get better and maybe we just haven't given Z enough time to adapt. And with LotV coming out soon this is all pretty moot anyway. The only thing that remains relevant is what we use to determine imbalance. I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance. How do you define "top player"? | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance. I don't entirely agree with that, cause imho it might be why we haven't see any real bonjwa (or close to) in SC2 yet. If each and every time a player may hint toward being the beast Bisu/Boxer and stuff have been in BW, we start patching the game, it may only be detrimental for the game. Cause we're kind of neglecting his personnal skill, as well as the infortunates young premier who happens to play the same race. However if the top 20 players are all of the same race for an extended period of time, ye it might be imbalanced, but if one guy kills everyone and a few others are inspired by him until meta adapts imo it's okay. We had 20 Toss champion not long ago, previously it was 20 Zerg ones and even before 20 T. Actually the games looks quite good in terms of balance, may be not perfect, but if changes have to go, it's not time yet. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 18 2014 08:19 MTAC wrote: I don't entirely agree with that, cause imho it might be why we haven't see any real bonjwa (or close to) in SC2 yet. If each and every time a player may hint toward being the beast Bisu/Boxer and stuff have been in BW, we start patching the game, it may only be detrimental for the game. Cause we're kind of neglecting his personnal skill, as well as the infortunates young premier who happens to play the same race. However if the top 20 players are all of the same race for an extended period of time, ye it might be imbalanced, but if one guy kills everyone and a few others are inspired by him until meta adapts imo it's okay. We had 20 Toss champion not long ago, previously it was 20 Zerg ones and even before 20 T. Actually the games looks quite good in terms of balance, may be not perfect, but if changes have to go, it's not time yet. There's a difference between bonjwa and top 10. The top 10 players of one race can't all have bonjwa win percentages vs another race. If Flash was 90% in TvZ but the other top Terrans all had high 70s, low 60s for example, you could conclude that Flash is a Bonjwa. But when consistently all the top pros of one race are better in a matchup than the top pros of another race you're not really looking at bonjwas anymore you're looking at imbalance. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
If you look at mid-late 2012 (the BL-Infestor Era) in a vacuum for example, you see Taeja, MVP, Rain, Parting all performing quite well, and even having good records vs top Zerg's of the time (such as Symbol, Leenock, Life, Stephano ect). This doesn't change my opinion that Zerg was OP at the time, we just saw the very top T's and P's playing more timing / mind game oriented styles and making things happen anyway. If you look at early Wings too you'll see top Z's and P's winning tournaments and/or having winning records vs top T's (see DRG vs MVP, MMA, MKP for example). In fact really only the Protoss dominated era of early 2014 doesn't show this (basically everyone was losing to P, very few non-P tournaments wins), but we still saw the top few players from other races (and especially those who specialized vP, such as soO, Hyun, Polt, Maru, ect) performing quite well. edit: In all these cases those players became a rallying cry for those claiming everything was 'okay', and looking back on it we mostly agree those were eras of racial dominance now. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On November 18 2014 09:16 Pursuit_ wrote: I think using top player vs top player solely is bad because typically even top players have bad matchups or styles that clash poorly against others. It's also possible for a player to emerge who is simply outplaying all his opponents. If you look at mid-late 2012 (the BL-Infestor Era) in a vacuum for example, you see Taeja, MVP, Rain, Parting all performing quite well, and even having good records vs top Zerg's of the time (such as Symbol, Leenock, Life, Stephano ect). This doesn't change my opinion that Zerg was OP at the time, we just saw the very top T's and P's playing more timing / mind game oriented styles and making things happen anyway. If you look at early Wings too you'll see top Z's and P's winning tournaments and/or having winning records vs top T's (see DRG vs MVP, MMA, MKP for example). In fact really only the Protoss dominated era of early 2014 doesn't show this (basically everyone was losing to P, very few non-P tournaments wins), but we still saw the top few players from other races (and especially those who specialized vP, such as soO, Hyun, Polt, Maru, ect) performing quite well. edit: In all these cases those players became a rallying cry for those claiming everything was 'okay', and looking back on it we mostly agree those were eras of racial dominance now. In fairness, the problem with Broodfestor was not the winrates.... Pillars of the game doing well is definitely proof that the game does not need to be fixed due to the game being unfair to one race or another. Those same pillars can't be used to excuse a state of gameplay that is unwanted. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 21 2014 06:14 Thieving Magpie wrote: In fairness, the problem with Broodfestor was not the winrates.... Pillars of the game doing well is definitely proof that the game does not need to be fixed due to the game being unfair to one race or another. Those same pillars can't be used to excuse a state of gameplay that is unwanted. It was the winrates, nothing else (in TvZ). | ||
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Swisslink
2958 Posts
On November 18 2014 07:24 DinoMight wrote: Agree that the patch in August SHOULD trigger a big change in win rates, but this patch was a reversion of the widow mine buff... Zerg players already had experience playing against this. I actually think the combination of the Hellbat buff AND this WM buff was the biggest problem. But anyway - I was just explaining my reasoning for looking at top players for balance, I don't actually care much to discuss ZvT balance. Of course as time passes, Zergs get better and maybe we just haven't given Z enough time to adapt. And with LotV coming out soon this is all pretty moot anyway. The only thing that remains relevant is what we use to determine imbalance. I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance. + the Thor change. Which just had a much bigger impact than Blizzard probably anticipated. They buffed the widow mines back to the state where every Zerg tried to counter the "parade push" with mass mutalisks s and at the same time buffed the hardcounter to Mutalisks to prevent Zerg from going mass mutalisks. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 21 2014 07:35 Swisslink wrote: + the Thor change. Which just had a much bigger impact than Blizzard probably anticipated. They buffed the widow mines back to the state where every Zerg tried to counter the "parade push" with mass mutalisks s and at the same time buffed the hardcounter to Mutalisks to prevent Zerg from going mass mutalisks. I'm not sure about the Thor-change being a big impact compared to 2013 bio-play. If you go back through time, Terrans just hadn't evolved Thor usage with the biomine compositions. It's therefore very hard to argue that the Thor-change makes a big difference, or whether just the inclusion of un"buffed" Thors into said biomine compositions would have been an improvement in 2013 already. I think what a lot of people just tend to forget is that the metagame has simply evolved and will always evolve a little. Zergs are better than 2013, so are Terrans. Some of the improvements are purely mechanical, others are strategie improvement which may partly be patch-induced but may have happened anyways if there would have been a need for them. (like the Thor usage only came up because Terrans were struggling with mass mutas after the WM nerf, while mass muta wasn't the most successful style for a long time; or recent 3-3 ultra/ling/bling/muta play is an evolution from the "eternal" 2-2 muta/ling/bling play started by DRG) | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On November 21 2014 08:02 Big J wrote: I think what a lot of people just tend to forget is that the metagame has simply evolved and will always evolve a little. Zergs are better than 2013, so are Terrans. Some of the improvements are purely mechanical, others are strategie improvement which may partly be patch-induced but may have happened anyways if there would have been a need for them. I would like to add that map pools have changed, as well, which often have a bigger impact than we realize. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On November 17 2014 22:26 Nebuchad wrote: And finally, since the whole discussion of 'being so much better that balance isn't a factor' has been applied to basically all the top terrans throughout the history of this forum, you can argue that it's not a player related issue, but a race related issue. It ties in to the whole discussion of 'terran is harder so terran players are more deserving'. So I wouldn't just say it's his 'subjective opinion'. I would add that he's incorrect. I'd wager it has to do with the brokenness of the Marine. Too high of a potential potency cap (or everything else too less) along with their prevalence in games, so non-Marine changes affect certain playstyles less and the bread 'n butter keeps the W/R steadier. For Zerg it's broken macro. For Protoss it's broken luck, both of which are more subject to the meta. | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess... | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote: Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing... How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess... Here's this one tournament where the racial statistics look skewed towards not my race. Imbaimba. I don't have an explanation. Not gonna elaborate on what happened in the games that is unfair. TT please nerf other races so I can feel better on ladder. Low content bullshit post is low content bullshit post. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote: Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing... How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess... You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 21 2014 19:59 Big J wrote: You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol. Well Parting and Zest didn't have any chance. I feel like Toss lacks the tools to defend this kind of play on these kind of maps :/ | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 21 2014 19:59 Big J wrote: You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol. #1 Maru and #2 Innovation and #3 Bbyong? Taking into account all of 2014 that's pretty accurate. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 21 2014 20:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: Well Parting and Zest didn't have any chance. I feel like Toss lacks the tools to defend this kind of play on these kind of maps :/ Be specific. What play on what maps? I haven't seen the games and this all looks like random whine  If 'this kind of play' refers to a (relatively) new style, your arguments are void instantly because you should give at least a month or 2 to figure new 'play' out :s | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 21 2014 20:05 SC2Toastie wrote: Be specific. What play on what maps? I haven't seen the games and this all looks like random whine If 'this kind of play' refers to a (relatively) new style, your arguments are void instantly because you should give at least a month or 2 to figure new 'play' out :s Then you should watch the games. I mean maybe it is whine, but i don't even play Protoss :D I just feel bad for them in TvP, doesn't look managable against multi pronged attacks | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
As a Protoss Widow mines can go to hell though  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 21 2014 20:03 SC2Toastie wrote: #1 Maru and #2 Innovation and #3 Bbyong? Taking into account all of 2014 that's pretty accurate. Yup, that's how I'd rate the top 3 Terrans when talking about their results on top-Korean level. Though Maru and Innovation are interchangable imo. For Protoss it's imo #1 Zest, #2-4 herO, Classic, Rain and then #5-#6 are Parting and sOs. Looking it up, I thought Dear still had stronger results at the start of the year, that's why I said Parting #7, though reconsidering he is #5 or #6 (that IEM WC that sOs won was really stacked). | ||
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