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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1207

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DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-17 22:25:29
November 17 2014 22:24 GMT
#24121
Agree that the patch in August SHOULD trigger a big change in win rates, but this patch was a reversion of the widow mine buff... Zerg players already had experience playing against this. I actually think the combination of the Hellbat buff AND this WM buff was the biggest problem.

But anyway - I was just explaining my reasoning for looking at top players for balance, I don't actually care much to discuss ZvT balance. Of course as time passes, Zergs get better and maybe we just haven't given Z enough time to adapt.

And with LotV coming out soon this is all pretty moot anyway. The only thing that remains relevant is what we use to determine imbalance. I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 17 2014 22:29 GMT
#24122
On November 18 2014 07:24 DinoMight wrote:
Agree that the patch in August SHOULD trigger a big change in win rates, but this patch was a reversion of the widow mine buff... Zerg players already had experience playing against this. I actually think the combination of the Hellbat buff AND this WM buff was the biggest problem.

But anyway - I was just explaining my reasoning for looking at top players for balance, I don't actually care much to discuss ZvT balance. Of course as time passes, Zergs get better and maybe we just haven't given Z enough time to adapt.

And with LotV coming out soon this is all pretty moot anyway. The only thing that remains relevant is what we use to determine imbalance. I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance.

How do you define "top player"?
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
MTAC
Profile Joined May 2013
103 Posts
November 17 2014 23:19 GMT
#24123
I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance.


I don't entirely agree with that, cause imho it might be why we haven't see any real bonjwa (or close to) in SC2 yet.

If each and every time a player may hint toward being the beast Bisu/Boxer and stuff have been in BW, we start patching the game, it may only be detrimental for the game. Cause we're kind of neglecting his personnal skill, as well as the infortunates young premier who happens to play the same race.

However if the top 20 players are all of the same race for an extended period of time, ye it might be imbalanced, but if one guy kills everyone and a few others are inspired by him until meta adapts imo it's okay. We had 20 Toss champion not long ago, previously it was 20 Zerg ones and even before 20 T.

Actually the games looks quite good in terms of balance, may be not perfect, but if changes have to go, it's not time yet.
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
November 17 2014 23:22 GMT
#24124
On November 18 2014 08:19 MTAC wrote:
Show nested quote +
I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance.


I don't entirely agree with that, cause imho it might be why we haven't see any real bonjwa (or close to) in SC2 yet.

If each and every time a player may hint toward being the beast Bisu/Boxer and stuff have been in BW, we start patching the game, it may only be detrimental for the game. Cause we're kind of neglecting his personnal skill, as well as the infortunates young premier who happens to play the same race.

However if the top 20 players are all of the same race for an extended period of time, ye it might be imbalanced, but if one guy kills everyone and a few others are inspired by him until meta adapts imo it's okay. We had 20 Toss champion not long ago, previously it was 20 Zerg ones and even before 20 T.

Actually the games looks quite good in terms of balance, may be not perfect, but if changes have to go, it's not time yet.


There's a difference between bonjwa and top 10. The top 10 players of one race can't all have bonjwa win percentages vs another race.

If Flash was 90% in TvZ but the other top Terrans all had high 70s, low 60s for example, you could conclude that Flash is a Bonjwa.

But when consistently all the top pros of one race are better in a matchup than the top pros of another race you're not really looking at bonjwas anymore you're looking at imbalance.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-18 00:19:55
November 18 2014 00:16 GMT
#24125
I think using top player vs top player solely is bad because typically even top players have bad matchups or styles that clash poorly against others. It's also possible for a player to emerge who is simply outplaying all his opponents.

If you look at mid-late 2012 (the BL-Infestor Era) in a vacuum for example, you see Taeja, MVP, Rain, Parting all performing quite well, and even having good records vs top Zerg's of the time (such as Symbol, Leenock, Life, Stephano ect). This doesn't change my opinion that Zerg was OP at the time, we just saw the very top T's and P's playing more timing / mind game oriented styles and making things happen anyway.

If you look at early Wings too you'll see top Z's and P's winning tournaments and/or having winning records vs top T's (see DRG vs MVP, MMA, MKP for example). In fact really only the Protoss dominated era of early 2014 doesn't show this (basically everyone was losing to P, very few non-P tournaments wins), but we still saw the top few players from other races (and especially those who specialized vP, such as soO, Hyun, Polt, Maru, ect) performing quite well.

edit: In all these cases those players became a rallying cry for those claiming everything was 'okay', and looking back on it we mostly agree those were eras of racial dominance now.
In Somnis Veritas
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
November 20 2014 21:14 GMT
#24126
On November 18 2014 09:16 Pursuit_ wrote:
I think using top player vs top player solely is bad because typically even top players have bad matchups or styles that clash poorly against others. It's also possible for a player to emerge who is simply outplaying all his opponents.

If you look at mid-late 2012 (the BL-Infestor Era) in a vacuum for example, you see Taeja, MVP, Rain, Parting all performing quite well, and even having good records vs top Zerg's of the time (such as Symbol, Leenock, Life, Stephano ect). This doesn't change my opinion that Zerg was OP at the time, we just saw the very top T's and P's playing more timing / mind game oriented styles and making things happen anyway.

If you look at early Wings too you'll see top Z's and P's winning tournaments and/or having winning records vs top T's (see DRG vs MVP, MMA, MKP for example). In fact really only the Protoss dominated era of early 2014 doesn't show this (basically everyone was losing to P, very few non-P tournaments wins), but we still saw the top few players from other races (and especially those who specialized vP, such as soO, Hyun, Polt, Maru, ect) performing quite well.

edit: In all these cases those players became a rallying cry for those claiming everything was 'okay', and looking back on it we mostly agree those were eras of racial dominance now.


In fairness, the problem with Broodfestor was not the winrates....

Pillars of the game doing well is definitely proof that the game does not need to be fixed due to the game being unfair to one race or another. Those same pillars can't be used to excuse a state of gameplay that is unwanted.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-20 21:20:27
November 20 2014 21:19 GMT
#24127
On November 21 2014 06:14 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2014 09:16 Pursuit_ wrote:
I think using top player vs top player solely is bad because typically even top players have bad matchups or styles that clash poorly against others. It's also possible for a player to emerge who is simply outplaying all his opponents.

If you look at mid-late 2012 (the BL-Infestor Era) in a vacuum for example, you see Taeja, MVP, Rain, Parting all performing quite well, and even having good records vs top Zerg's of the time (such as Symbol, Leenock, Life, Stephano ect). This doesn't change my opinion that Zerg was OP at the time, we just saw the very top T's and P's playing more timing / mind game oriented styles and making things happen anyway.

If you look at early Wings too you'll see top Z's and P's winning tournaments and/or having winning records vs top T's (see DRG vs MVP, MMA, MKP for example). In fact really only the Protoss dominated era of early 2014 doesn't show this (basically everyone was losing to P, very few non-P tournaments wins), but we still saw the top few players from other races (and especially those who specialized vP, such as soO, Hyun, Polt, Maru, ect) performing quite well.

edit: In all these cases those players became a rallying cry for those claiming everything was 'okay', and looking back on it we mostly agree those were eras of racial dominance now.


In fairness, the problem with Broodfestor was not the winrates....

Pillars of the game doing well is definitely proof that the game does not need to be fixed due to the game being unfair to one race or another. Those same pillars can't be used to excuse a state of gameplay that is unwanted.


It was the winrates, nothing else (in TvZ).
Swisslink
Profile Joined March 2011
2953 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-20 22:36:47
November 20 2014 22:35 GMT
#24128
On November 18 2014 07:24 DinoMight wrote:
Agree that the patch in August SHOULD trigger a big change in win rates, but this patch was a reversion of the widow mine buff... Zerg players already had experience playing against this. I actually think the combination of the Hellbat buff AND this WM buff was the biggest problem.

But anyway - I was just explaining my reasoning for looking at top players for balance, I don't actually care much to discuss ZvT balance. Of course as time passes, Zergs get better and maybe we just haven't given Z enough time to adapt.

And with LotV coming out soon this is all pretty moot anyway. The only thing that remains relevant is what we use to determine imbalance. I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance.


+ the Thor change. Which just had a much bigger impact than Blizzard probably anticipated.
They buffed the widow mines back to the state where every Zerg tried to counter the "parade push" with mass mutalisks s and at the same time buffed the hardcounter to Mutalisks to prevent Zerg from going mass mutalisks.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
November 20 2014 23:02 GMT
#24129
On November 21 2014 07:35 Swisslink wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2014 07:24 DinoMight wrote:
Agree that the patch in August SHOULD trigger a big change in win rates, but this patch was a reversion of the widow mine buff... Zerg players already had experience playing against this. I actually think the combination of the Hellbat buff AND this WM buff was the biggest problem.

But anyway - I was just explaining my reasoning for looking at top players for balance, I don't actually care much to discuss ZvT balance. Of course as time passes, Zergs get better and maybe we just haven't given Z enough time to adapt.

And with LotV coming out soon this is all pretty moot anyway. The only thing that remains relevant is what we use to determine imbalance. I stil think top player vs. top player performance is the only way to judge balance.


+ the Thor change. Which just had a much bigger impact than Blizzard probably anticipated.
They buffed the widow mines back to the state where every Zerg tried to counter the "parade push" with mass mutalisks s and at the same time buffed the hardcounter to Mutalisks to prevent Zerg from going mass mutalisks.


I'm not sure about the Thor-change being a big impact compared to 2013 bio-play.
If you go back through time, Terrans just hadn't evolved Thor usage with the biomine compositions. It's therefore very hard to argue that the Thor-change makes a big difference, or whether just the inclusion of un"buffed" Thors into said biomine compositions would have been an improvement in 2013 already.

I think what a lot of people just tend to forget is that the metagame has simply evolved and will always evolve a little. Zergs are better than 2013, so are Terrans. Some of the improvements are purely mechanical, others are strategie improvement which may partly be patch-induced but may have happened anyways if there would have been a need for them. (like the Thor usage only came up because Terrans were struggling with mass mutas after the WM nerf, while mass muta wasn't the most successful style for a long time; or recent 3-3 ultra/ling/bling/muta play is an evolution from the "eternal" 2-2 muta/ling/bling play started by DRG)
CakeSauc3
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1437 Posts
November 20 2014 23:07 GMT
#24130
On November 21 2014 08:02 Big J wrote:
I think what a lot of people just tend to forget is that the metagame has simply evolved and will always evolve a little. Zergs are better than 2013, so are Terrans. Some of the improvements are purely mechanical, others are strategie improvement which may partly be patch-induced but may have happened anyways if there would have been a need for them.


I would like to add that map pools have changed, as well, which often have a bigger impact than we realize.
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-20 23:32:59
November 20 2014 23:31 GMT
#24131
On November 17 2014 22:26 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2014 21:44 RaFox17 wrote:
On November 17 2014 06:05 starslayer wrote:
On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:
On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:
On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.

Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.



can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good.




Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : )



you can be a sarcastic dick all you want but none of those other players come close to teaja and havent won as much as him and have all be up and down, were teaja really hasnt, he has been good forever, mine nerf fine, hellbat nerf fine, buffs fine, doesnt matter the others you named all had a hard times through the year. you can all cry all you want about balance but teaja is other level. you dont get it thats fine

Those are all the players terrans have said to be "outside" balance because they are so freaking good. Funnily no other player has ever been considered to be that good. Yes Taeja is one of the best players of the world but saying that balance does not affect him and people who don´t understand this are just wrong is just your subjective opinion. It´s not a fact.

And finally, since the whole discussion of 'being so much better that balance isn't a factor' has been applied to basically all the top terrans throughout the history of this forum, you can argue that it's not a player related issue, but a race related issue. It ties in to the whole discussion of 'terran is harder so terran players are more deserving'.

So I wouldn't just say it's his 'subjective opinion'. I would add that he's incorrect.


I'd wager it has to do with the brokenness of the Marine. Too high of a potential potency cap (or everything else too less) along with their prevalence in games, so non-Marine changes affect certain playstyles less and the bread 'n butter keeps the W/R steadier.

For Zerg it's broken macro. For Protoss it's broken luck, both of which are more subject to the meta.
The more you know, the less you understand.
Svizcy
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovenia300 Posts
November 21 2014 10:41 GMT
#24132
Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing...
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess...
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-21 10:59:13
November 21 2014 10:58 GMT
#24133
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote:
Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing...
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess...

Here's this one tournament where the racial statistics look skewed towards not my race. Imbaimba. I don't have an explanation. Not gonna elaborate on what happened in the games that is unfair. TT please nerf other races so I can feel better on ladder.

Low content bullshit post is low content bullshit post.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
November 21 2014 10:59 GMT
#24134
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote:
Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing...
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess...

You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 21 2014 11:02 GMT
#24135
On November 21 2014 19:59 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote:
Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing...
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess...

You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol.

Well Parting and Zest didn't have any chance. I feel like Toss lacks the tools to defend this kind of play on these kind of maps :/
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-21 11:03:58
November 21 2014 11:03 GMT
#24136
On November 21 2014 19:59 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote:
Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing...
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess...

You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol.

#1 Maru and #2 Innovation and #3 Bbyong? Taking into account all of 2014 that's pretty accurate.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
November 21 2014 11:05 GMT
#24137
On November 21 2014 20:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2014 19:59 Big J wrote:
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote:
Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing...
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess...

You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol.

Well Parting and Zest didn't have any chance. I feel like Toss lacks the tools to defend this kind of play on these kind of maps :/

Be specific. What play on what maps?

I haven't seen the games and this all looks like random whine
If 'this kind of play' refers to a (relatively) new style, your arguments are void instantly because you should give at least a month or 2 to figure new 'play' out :s
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
November 21 2014 11:08 GMT
#24138
On November 21 2014 20:05 SC2Toastie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2014 20:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On November 21 2014 19:59 Big J wrote:
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote:
Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing...
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess...

You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol.

Well Parting and Zest didn't have any chance. I feel like Toss lacks the tools to defend this kind of play on these kind of maps :/

Be specific. What play on what maps?

I haven't seen the games and this all looks like random whine
If 'this kind of play' refers to a (relatively) new style, your arguments are void instantly because you should give at least a month or 2 to figure new 'play' out :s

Then you should watch the games. I mean maybe it is whine, but i don't even play Protoss :D
I just feel bad for them in TvP, doesn't look managable against multi pronged attacks
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
showstealer1829
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Australia3123 Posts
November 21 2014 11:10 GMT
#24139
I think it was more a case of BByong playing the practice than Terran OP.

As a Protoss Widow mines can go to hell though
There is no understanding. There is only Choya. Choya is the way. Choya is Love. Choya is Life. Has is the Light in the Protoss Dark and Nightmare is his chosen Acolyte
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-21 11:12:33
November 21 2014 11:11 GMT
#24140
On November 21 2014 20:03 SC2Toastie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2014 19:59 Big J wrote:
On November 21 2014 19:41 Svizcy wrote:
Terran broken, watching hot6 cup, can't belive what i am seeing...
How did it get this far? Blizzard wont fix anything beffore LoTv is out or will they react to this mess...

You mean the #3 Korean Terran this year advancing over the #1, #7 and #100 Protoss? What a craaaaazy upset, lol.

#1 Maru and #2 Innovation and #3 Bbyong? Taking into account all of 2014 that's pretty accurate.


Yup, that's how I'd rate the top 3 Terrans when talking about their results on top-Korean level. Though Maru and Innovation are interchangable imo.
For Protoss it's imo #1 Zest, #2-4 herO, Classic, Rain and then #5-#6 are Parting and sOs. Looking it up, I thought Dear still had stronger results at the start of the year, that's why I said Parting #7, though reconsidering he is #5 or #6 (that IEM WC that sOs won was really stacked).
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