On November 21 2014 23:52 pure.Wasted wrote: I think this conversation about the inherent limitations of the Protoss race (specifically that bases can't be too spread out or Protoss can't even defend effectively), so I posted in the LOTV Update thread to hopefully get some people who don't frequent this thread to thinking about this.
LOTV is changing up how many expansions players need to keep track of, but as of right now it's not giving Protoss many (any?) new options for playing a harass-intensive 5 base vs 5 base style game, which is like... a crazy huge deal.
If Bbyong's games vs PartinG and Zest on King Sejong are a precursor of what happens to Protoss in LOTV, I don't want the inevitable solution to be "make Terran not be able to do that," because "that" in this case is "showing off godly multitasking." I want the solution to be "make the Protoss be able to respond in kind." I would hope that most posters here agree.
One suggestion that gets brought up a lot is getting rid of/revamping the Colossus while buffing Gateway units. Would that solve all of our problems, though? Would buffed Zealots on a 5 base economy be interesting to watch, or, for that matter, skill intensive to use? They're 1A now, they'll be 1A in LOTV, regardless of how much stronger they are... unless they become more responsive, get a new ability, something. Maybe buffed Stalkers + HT would be interesting enough?
Does anyone have ideas?
Problem is, in the current state of the game, if the protoss players manages to get to 5v5 bases, lategame zealot runbies/warpins, DT harass, storm drops and all are already super strong (and the number 1 reason why terran players avoid lategame vP at all costs). So I'm not sure of how to buff the protoss midgame harrass (which data seem to indicate they might need) while not completely screwing terrans over once it goes late and P can afford warp prisms, DTs and all...
Edit: this is only my point of view though, and as a diamond terran, who play mostly passive and very macro oriented. I tend to lose a lot lategame vsP because harrass is so hard to deal with and new bases so hard to set up. So maybe my opinions are a reflect of my personnal struggles. Don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong.
I think you are completely right. At 5bases with enough money for canons and prisms/pylons all over the map Protoss harass is really scary. The big struggle for Protoss is always to take a third base while dealing with the drops and getting ready for the SCV pull or similar timings. I think it comes down to: Protoss needs a third base so they don't fall behind Protoss needs Colossi so that they can hold in the midgame Protoss needs support techs like blink/upgrades for the midgame and lategame engagments --> there are a lot of investments that all have to be done before a certain point which just makes it hard to have enough units in the midgame to begin with. Extra spendings on harass are pretty much out of the question at that point.
It's what Hider always says: if you have to expand very fast with rather immobile forces, the only thing that you can do is turtle very hard. I'll add the same goes for teching very hard, and Protoss pretty much has to do a combination of those two. Which is why I think a solution would be to make midgame techs sufficient to fight (vs bio) in the longrun, aka immortals VRs.
On November 22 2014 00:38 deacon.frost wrote: Right now Protoss have problem in defending multiple harass drops at the same time, because small groups of stimmed bio with medevacs are now always better than small groups of protoss units. It is logical, you cannot buff those units because otherwise 4gate to victory. It is a balance problem(and a design too).
How should Blizzard deal with it?
Make speedboost require energy instead of a cooldown.
On November 22 2014 00:38 deacon.frost wrote: Right now Protoss have problem in defending multiple harass drops at the same time, because small groups of stimmed bio with medevacs are now always better than small groups of protoss units. It is logical, you cannot buff those units because otherwise 4gate to victory. It is a balance problem(and a design too).
How should Blizzard deal with it?
Make speedboost require energy instead of a cooldown.
Then medivac may not be able to escape from mutas!
templar + small protoss force were dealing with medivac drop just fine a few month ago. They should probably do that again with a single canon for each mineral line to counter mines.
On November 22 2014 00:14 johnbongham wrote: Bbyong just outplayed both Parting and Zest today. It was completely obvious that he came prepared and they did not, at least on the same level. The amount of mistakes both players made had nothing to do with balance.
It is about balance. On open base maps protoss have problem with defending 3 base economy. Zest, San, Parting - each of these players have problem with drops on 3 bases at the same time. KSS is great map for this style, better is only "Leenock map"(Catallena). San lost several games there with Templar opening(for those saying tthat feedback counters this style) on Catallena.
If you want to ignore this problem at all, we will stop having these maps or Blizzard will nerf the shit out of Terrans. The worst possible result will be another all in party after buffing Protoss. Do not forget that in LotV you are forced to take bases much faster. And once you have more bases you still have to defend your main, you cannot relocate your tech in any easy way(building new robos/stargates).
Right now Protoss have problem in defending multiple harass drops at the same time, because small groups of stimmed bio with medevacs are now always better than small groups of protoss units. It is logical, you cannot buff those units because otherwise 4gate to victory. It is a balance problem(and a design too).
How many terrans can handle 3 drops at one time and do enough damage to make the risk worth it? Not many. As such, there shouldn't be many protoss players who can defend properly against it. BByong's multitasking made parting and zest who are used to massing one big army all the time look like chumps. Protoss has cannons, blink stalkers, feedback, overcharge etc. There really is no excuse. They wouldn't have even been in such bad spots if they didnt do stupid things like proxy a stargate or make a cannon in the mineral line or let an scv scout the blink and no detection. Once they got in a bad spot, BByong made them look even worse with the lead he was able to get. BByong was SICK against protoss throughout proleague, why should it be any different now?
You know why Protoss usually build a one big army?
Because: Right now Protoss have problem in defending multiple harass drops at the same time, because small groups of stimmed bio with medevacs are now always better than small groups of protoss units. It is logical, you cannot buff those units because otherwise 4gate to victory. It is a balance problem(and a design too).
You cannot fight small skirmish fights, that's why you have to build a deathball. You have no other way. In small scale fights is bio WAY better.
OMG, BByong dropped over 3 cannons(or 2? I heard Wolf saying 3 though, not sure, at work) ignoring completely that they are even there. Cannons are not the answer we are looking for, they are useless against healed marauder. IIRC you need 12 stalkers to one shot medevac, 11 when +1 and 10 when +2. This is 24/22/20 supply. Overcharge is ridiculously useless in midgame and so on against healed stim bio force. It is just early game safe system(and wrong one IMO).
On November 22 2014 00:48 klup wrote: templar + small protoss force were dealing with medivac drop just fine a few month ago. They should probably do that again with a single canon for each mineral line to counter mines.
Yeah, but you have to open colossus, because opening templar is not working so good anymore. Look at some San's games, he is one of the Templar players.
On November 22 2014 00:38 deacon.frost wrote: Right now Protoss have problem in defending multiple harass drops at the same time, because small groups of stimmed bio with medevacs are now always better than small groups of protoss units. It is logical, you cannot buff those units because otherwise 4gate to victory. It is a balance problem(and a design too).
How should Blizzard deal with it?
Make speedboost require energy instead of a cooldown.
Then medivac may not be able to escape from mutas!
On November 21 2014 23:52 pure.Wasted wrote: I think this conversation about the inherent limitations of the Protoss race (specifically that bases can't be too spread out or Protoss can't even defend effectively), so I posted in the LOTV Update thread to hopefully get some people who don't frequent this thread to thinking about this.
LOTV is changing up how many expansions players need to keep track of, but as of right now it's not giving Protoss many (any?) new options for playing a harass-intensive 5 base vs 5 base style game, which is like... a crazy huge deal.
If Bbyong's games vs PartinG and Zest on King Sejong are a precursor of what happens to Protoss in LOTV, I don't want the inevitable solution to be "make Terran not be able to do that," because "that" in this case is "showing off godly multitasking." I want the solution to be "make the Protoss be able to respond in kind." I would hope that most posters here agree.
One suggestion that gets brought up a lot is getting rid of/revamping the Colossus while buffing Gateway units. Would that solve all of our problems, though? Would buffed Zealots on a 5 base economy be interesting to watch, or, for that matter, skill intensive to use? They're 1A now, they'll be 1A in LOTV, regardless of how much stronger they are... unless they become more responsive, get a new ability, something. Maybe buffed Stalkers + HT would be interesting enough?
Does anyone have ideas?
Problem is, in the current state of the game, if the protoss players manages to get to 5v5 bases, lategame zealot runbies/warpins, DT harass, storm drops and all are already super strong (and the number 1 reason why terran players avoid lategame vP at all costs). So I'm not sure of how to buff the protoss midgame harrass (which data seem to indicate they might need) while not completely screwing terrans over once it goes late and P can afford warp prisms, DTs and all...
Edit: this is only my point of view though, and as a diamond terran, who play mostly passive and very macro oriented. I tend to lose a lot lategame vsP because harrass is so hard to deal with and new bases so hard to set up. So maybe my opinions are a reflect of my personnal struggles. Don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong.
I think you are completely right. At 5bases with enough money for canons and prisms/pylons all over the map Protoss harass is really scary. The big struggle for Protoss is always to take a third base while dealing with the drops and getting ready for the SCV pull or similar timings. I think it comes down to: Protoss needs a third base so they don't fall behind Protoss needs Colossi so that they can hold in the midgame Protoss needs support techs like blink/upgrades for the midgame and lategame engagments --> there are a lot of investments that all have to be done before a certain point which just makes it hard to have enough units in the midgame to begin with. Extra spendings on harass are pretty much out of the question at that point.
It's what Hider always says: if you have to expand very fast with rather immobile forces, the only thing that you can do is turtle very hard. I'll add the same goes for teching very hard, and Protoss pretty much has to do a combination of those two. Which is why I think a solution would be to make midgame techs sufficient to fight (vs bio) in the longrun, aka immortals VRs.
There really are only 3 option how to achieve that: 1. You give them absurdly high dps (even higher than oracle) 2. You make them extremely tanky (kinda like ultras) 3. You give them splash (just like every bio "counter" right now)
I am not sure i like any of that. The units are already pretty strong in the other 2 matchups. If anything this whole "problem" points towards bio just being too strong, or rather MMM being too strong. I know this has been said over and over again, but i think it is true (and no, i don't wanna nerf bio and thus terran as a whole, obviously there would be buffs to other units to compensate)
On November 22 2014 00:48 klup wrote: templar + small protoss force were dealing with medivac drop just fine a few month ago. They should probably do that again with a single canon for each mineral line to counter mines.
Even with one cannon, the WM are sometimes not countered. They can burrow out of range. Even if they are detected, you still have to have the means to send a force there to destroy it and it is still often able to take out 4-5 probes anyways. These cannons (and sometimes the forge that goes with them) is also that much resource that could be lacking against some pushes/drops. WM buff is a big boost to terran it stretches protoss defenses to a point where it could become too thin.
On November 22 2014 00:38 deacon.frost wrote: Right now Protoss have problem in defending multiple harass drops at the same time, because small groups of stimmed bio with medevacs are now always better than small groups of protoss units. It is logical, you cannot buff those units because otherwise 4gate to victory. It is a balance problem(and a design too).
How should Blizzard deal with it?
Really I don't think they should. This is what happens when you get a map pool that favours terran too much. It's not even the map pool's fault, as it was designed with the thought of a weaker terran race in mind (before the last patches). That tells me if the mapmakers have a setgoal in mind, they can achieve it. Now their next set goal should be different, as the circumstances of the game are different now. If in the next map pool the same problems arise, I'd be ready to hear about different solutions.
On November 22 2014 00:51 deacon.frost wrote: Yeah, but you have to open colossus, because opening templar is not working so good anymore. Look at some San's games, he is one of the Templar players.
Also it pains me to say this cause I'm one of his biggest fans but San's PvT has never been that good. I wouldn't say the fact he performs badly with it is evidence that you can't open templar at all anymore.
I would however say the fact that he tries is probably evidence that more people should, as he's been one of those with solid good ideas a lot of the time in the history of the game.
On November 21 2014 23:52 pure.Wasted wrote: I think this conversation about the inherent limitations of the Protoss race (specifically that bases can't be too spread out or Protoss can't even defend effectively), so I posted in the LOTV Update thread to hopefully get some people who don't frequent this thread to thinking about this.
LOTV is changing up how many expansions players need to keep track of, but as of right now it's not giving Protoss many (any?) new options for playing a harass-intensive 5 base vs 5 base style game, which is like... a crazy huge deal.
If Bbyong's games vs PartinG and Zest on King Sejong are a precursor of what happens to Protoss in LOTV, I don't want the inevitable solution to be "make Terran not be able to do that," because "that" in this case is "showing off godly multitasking." I want the solution to be "make the Protoss be able to respond in kind." I would hope that most posters here agree.
One suggestion that gets brought up a lot is getting rid of/revamping the Colossus while buffing Gateway units. Would that solve all of our problems, though? Would buffed Zealots on a 5 base economy be interesting to watch, or, for that matter, skill intensive to use? They're 1A now, they'll be 1A in LOTV, regardless of how much stronger they are... unless they become more responsive, get a new ability, something. Maybe buffed Stalkers + HT would be interesting enough?
Does anyone have ideas?
Problem is, in the current state of the game, if the protoss players manages to get to 5v5 bases, lategame zealot runbies/warpins, DT harass, storm drops and all are already super strong (and the number 1 reason why terran players avoid lategame vP at all costs). So I'm not sure of how to buff the protoss midgame harrass (which data seem to indicate they might need) while not completely screwing terrans over once it goes late and P can afford warp prisms, DTs and all...
Edit: this is only my point of view though, and as a diamond terran, who play mostly passive and very macro oriented. I tend to lose a lot lategame vsP because harrass is so hard to deal with and new bases so hard to set up. So maybe my opinions are a reflect of my personnal struggles. Don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong.
I think you are completely right. At 5bases with enough money for canons and prisms/pylons all over the map Protoss harass is really scary. The big struggle for Protoss is always to take a third base while dealing with the drops and getting ready for the SCV pull or similar timings. I think it comes down to: Protoss needs a third base so they don't fall behind Protoss needs Colossi so that they can hold in the midgame Protoss needs support techs like blink/upgrades for the midgame and lategame engagments --> there are a lot of investments that all have to be done before a certain point which just makes it hard to have enough units in the midgame to begin with. Extra spendings on harass are pretty much out of the question at that point.
It's what Hider always says: if you have to expand very fast with rather immobile forces, the only thing that you can do is turtle very hard. I'll add the same goes for teching very hard, and Protoss pretty much has to do a combination of those two. Which is why I think a solution would be to make midgame techs sufficient to fight (vs bio) in the longrun, aka immortals VRs.
There really are only 3 option how to achieve that: 1. You give them absurdly high dps (even higher than oracle) 2. You make them extremely tanky (kinda like ultras) 3. You give them splash (just like every bio "counter" right now)
I am not sure i like any of that. The units are already pretty strong in the other 2 matchups. If anything this whole "problem" points towards bio just being too strong, or rather MMM being too strong. I know this has been said over and over again, but i think it is true (and no, i don't wanna nerf bio and thus terran as a whole, obviously there would be buffs to other units to compensate)
What about the Immortal being changed to something like: 35 flat damage and receiving a movement buff to say 2.75? Or the VR to 8 damage instead of 6+4vs armored? (prismatic alignment stays the same)
I think stuff like this could help a lot so that Protoss wouldn't always have to rush Colossi of two always, but do something like blink/immortal instead of blink/Colossus.
When talking about the Immortal, I hope its ability gets balanced around autotriggering when you attack it. So you can abuse it and it's not another "select this unit and press this button when engaging" for Protoss.
On November 21 2014 23:52 pure.Wasted wrote: LOTV is changing up how many expansions players need to keep track of, but as of right now it's not giving Protoss many (any?) new options for playing a harass-intensive 5 base vs 5 base style game, which is like... a crazy huge deal.
Discouting the harass possibilities that protoss has on 5v5 bases, imagine something like: I make 2 or 3 oracles, I stasis ward some of the areas that are likely to be dropped, and I get to deal with the multidrop in succession rather than at the same time.
On November 21 2014 23:52 pure.Wasted wrote: I think this conversation about the inherent limitations of the Protoss race (specifically that bases can't be too spread out or Protoss can't even defend effectively), so I posted in the LOTV Update thread to hopefully get some people who don't frequent this thread to thinking about this.
LOTV is changing up how many expansions players need to keep track of, but as of right now it's not giving Protoss many (any?) new options for playing a harass-intensive 5 base vs 5 base style game, which is like... a crazy huge deal.
If Bbyong's games vs PartinG and Zest on King Sejong are a precursor of what happens to Protoss in LOTV, I don't want the inevitable solution to be "make Terran not be able to do that," because "that" in this case is "showing off godly multitasking." I want the solution to be "make the Protoss be able to respond in kind." I would hope that most posters here agree.
One suggestion that gets brought up a lot is getting rid of/revamping the Colossus while buffing Gateway units. Would that solve all of our problems, though? Would buffed Zealots on a 5 base economy be interesting to watch, or, for that matter, skill intensive to use? They're 1A now, they'll be 1A in LOTV, regardless of how much stronger they are... unless they become more responsive, get a new ability, something. Maybe buffed Stalkers + HT would be interesting enough?
Does anyone have ideas?
Problem is, in the current state of the game, if the protoss players manages to get to 5v5 bases, lategame zealot runbies/warpins, DT harass, storm drops and all are already super strong (and the number 1 reason why terran players avoid lategame vP at all costs). So I'm not sure of how to buff the protoss midgame harrass (which data seem to indicate they might need) while not completely screwing terrans over once it goes late and P can afford warp prisms, DTs and all...
Edit: this is only my point of view though, and as a diamond terran, who play mostly passive and very macro oriented. I tend to lose a lot lategame vsP because harrass is so hard to deal with and new bases so hard to set up. So maybe my opinions are a reflect of my personnal struggles. Don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong.
I think you are completely right. At 5bases with enough money for canons and prisms/pylons all over the map Protoss harass is really scary. The big struggle for Protoss is always to take a third base while dealing with the drops and getting ready for the SCV pull or similar timings. I think it comes down to: Protoss needs a third base so they don't fall behind Protoss needs Colossi so that they can hold in the midgame Protoss needs support techs like blink/upgrades for the midgame and lategame engagments --> there are a lot of investments that all have to be done before a certain point which just makes it hard to have enough units in the midgame to begin with. Extra spendings on harass are pretty much out of the question at that point.
It's what Hider always says: if you have to expand very fast with rather immobile forces, the only thing that you can do is turtle very hard. I'll add the same goes for teching very hard, and Protoss pretty much has to do a combination of those two. Which is why I think a solution would be to make midgame techs sufficient to fight (vs bio) in the longrun, aka immortals VRs.
There really are only 3 option how to achieve that: 1. You give them absurdly high dps (even higher than oracle) 2. You make them extremely tanky (kinda like ultras) 3. You give them splash (just like every bio "counter" right now)
I am not sure i like any of that. The units are already pretty strong in the other 2 matchups. If anything this whole "problem" points towards bio just being too strong, or rather MMM being too strong. I know this has been said over and over again, but i think it is true (and no, i don't wanna nerf bio and thus terran as a whole, obviously there would be buffs to other units to compensate)
What about the Immortal being changed to something like: 35 flat damage and receiving a movement buff to say 2.75? Or the VR to 8 damage instead of 6+4vs armored? (prismatic alignment stays the same)
I think stuff like this could help a lot so that Protoss wouldn't always have to rush Colossi of two always, but do something like blink/immortal instead of blink/Colossus.
When talking about the Immortal, I hope its ability gets balanced around autotriggering when you attack it. So you can abuse it and it's not another "select this unit and press this button when engaging" for Protoss.
I don't know if that would help much tbh. To fight against bio you either need units which are just as massable as bio itself (like banelings) or high impact units (like colossi/tanks). With immortals having higher dps you still would need a lot of them to be worth it i feel (so one robo wouldn't really be enough) If you change the immortal that way and put it on gateway tech, that might be doable, but even then, they would be still fairly costly for their dps. You kinda wanna make a "roach hydra" for toss it seems? (and even there, roach hydra is only a timing based army against bio, no?)
On November 22 2014 00:38 deacon.frost wrote: Right now Protoss have problem in defending multiple harass drops at the same time, because small groups of stimmed bio with medevacs are now always better than small groups of protoss units. It is logical, you cannot buff those units because otherwise 4gate to victory. It is a balance problem(and a design too).
How should Blizzard deal with it?
Really I don't think they should. This is what happens when you get a map pool that favours terran too much. It's not even the map pool's fault, as it was designed with the thought of a weaker terran race in mind (before the last patches). That tells me if the mapmakers have a setgoal in mind, they can achieve it. Now their next set goal should be different, as the circumstances of the game are different now. If in the next map pool the same problems arise, I'd be ready to hear about different solutions.
I agree that the map pool is a big issue. The funny thing is that exploiting the map as terran in TvP with multipronged harrass is 10x harder to execute than the blink "all-ins" that dominated the earlier map pools this year. Also, proxy stargate, if it fails, should be a loss 4/5 of the time. Glad to see BByong made parting pay. When is the last time anyone ever saw a proxy starport work in TvP? Proxying super expensive and valuable tech should be a gigantic risk that costs you the game if it doesn't kill you opponent.
On November 21 2014 23:52 pure.Wasted wrote: I think this conversation about the inherent limitations of the Protoss race (specifically that bases can't be too spread out or Protoss can't even defend effectively), so I posted in the LOTV Update thread to hopefully get some people who don't frequent this thread to thinking about this.
LOTV is changing up how many expansions players need to keep track of, but as of right now it's not giving Protoss many (any?) new options for playing a harass-intensive 5 base vs 5 base style game, which is like... a crazy huge deal.
If Bbyong's games vs PartinG and Zest on King Sejong are a precursor of what happens to Protoss in LOTV, I don't want the inevitable solution to be "make Terran not be able to do that," because "that" in this case is "showing off godly multitasking." I want the solution to be "make the Protoss be able to respond in kind." I would hope that most posters here agree.
One suggestion that gets brought up a lot is getting rid of/revamping the Colossus while buffing Gateway units. Would that solve all of our problems, though? Would buffed Zealots on a 5 base economy be interesting to watch, or, for that matter, skill intensive to use? They're 1A now, they'll be 1A in LOTV, regardless of how much stronger they are... unless they become more responsive, get a new ability, something. Maybe buffed Stalkers + HT would be interesting enough?
Does anyone have ideas?
Problem is, in the current state of the game, if the protoss players manages to get to 5v5 bases, lategame zealot runbies/warpins, DT harass, storm drops and all are already super strong (and the number 1 reason why terran players avoid lategame vP at all costs). So I'm not sure of how to buff the protoss midgame harrass (which data seem to indicate they might need) while not completely screwing terrans over once it goes late and P can afford warp prisms, DTs and all...
Edit: this is only my point of view though, and as a diamond terran, who play mostly passive and very macro oriented. I tend to lose a lot lategame vsP because harrass is so hard to deal with and new bases so hard to set up. So maybe my opinions are a reflect of my personnal struggles. Don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong.
I think you are completely right. At 5bases with enough money for canons and prisms/pylons all over the map Protoss harass is really scary. The big struggle for Protoss is always to take a third base while dealing with the drops and getting ready for the SCV pull or similar timings. I think it comes down to: Protoss needs a third base so they don't fall behind Protoss needs Colossi so that they can hold in the midgame Protoss needs support techs like blink/upgrades for the midgame and lategame engagments --> there are a lot of investments that all have to be done before a certain point which just makes it hard to have enough units in the midgame to begin with. Extra spendings on harass are pretty much out of the question at that point.
It's what Hider always says: if you have to expand very fast with rather immobile forces, the only thing that you can do is turtle very hard. I'll add the same goes for teching very hard, and Protoss pretty much has to do a combination of those two. Which is why I think a solution would be to make midgame techs sufficient to fight (vs bio) in the longrun, aka immortals VRs.
There really are only 3 option how to achieve that: 1. You give them absurdly high dps (even higher than oracle) 2. You make them extremely tanky (kinda like ultras) 3. You give them splash (just like every bio "counter" right now)
I am not sure i like any of that. The units are already pretty strong in the other 2 matchups. If anything this whole "problem" points towards bio just being too strong, or rather MMM being too strong. I know this has been said over and over again, but i think it is true (and no, i don't wanna nerf bio and thus terran as a whole, obviously there would be buffs to other units to compensate)
What about the Immortal being changed to something like: 35 flat damage and receiving a movement buff to say 2.75? Or the VR to 8 damage instead of 6+4vs armored? (prismatic alignment stays the same)
I think stuff like this could help a lot so that Protoss wouldn't always have to rush Colossi of two always, but do something like blink/immortal instead of blink/Colossus.
When talking about the Immortal, I hope its ability gets balanced around autotriggering when you attack it. So you can abuse it and it's not another "select this unit and press this button when engaging" for Protoss.
I don't know if that would help much tbh. To fight against bio you either need units which are just as massable as bio itself (like banelings) or high impact units (like colossi/tanks). With immortals having higher dps you still would need a lot of them to be worth it i feel (so one robo wouldn't really be enough) If you change the immortal that way and put it on gateway tech, that might be doable, but even then, they would be still fairly costly for their dps. You kinda wanna make a "roach hydra" for toss it seems? (and even there, roach hydra is only a timing based army against bio, no?)
Immortals have quite a high impact against the right units, even though they don't do splash! Think of a Protoss that expands to a third vs a zerg. There having 1-2immortals or not makes all the difference in the world. The thing is just that currently it is a very low impact unit against light units (marines) and when you take a third against Terran you need speedier units than against Zerg, because drops can hit you everywhere but Zerg only really between your third and natural.
There are some interesting fast 3rd base builds for Protoss vs Terran that go very gateway heavy after the expand. Protoss can even attack from such a setup. Their problem seems to be mainly that in the longrun your composition just turns into crap, yet you can't afford real hightech with the fast third+the units needed to defend it. Which is why I think bridging units between stalker/zealot/sentry and Colossus/Templar that you can trickle in and which just go toe-to-toe in the longrun could provide the longrun stability such builds are missing.
I think of it like this: Gateway Units < bio Colossus/Templar > bio fix Immortal, so that Immortal = bio --> mass Gateway + Immortal can hold out vs bio for a longer time
Sure, in the longrun you still need the higher techs because you can't get the immortal counts that high. But your core army without the Colossi/Templar is stronger, so you can live longer without them. And you can be more aggressive in the midgame if that midgame army is stronger.
Two big differences to roach/hydra: 1) Immortals are supplyefficient. The problem with roach/hydra is mainly that building roach/hydra now, hurts you later. However, having more immortals in your army isn't bad. It's just not being done currently because you need your robo to produce Colossi, because Immortal based play doesn't work. 2) Immortals transition very well into Colossi (1 tech building+1upgrade), which is exactly what you want vs bio. For a Zerg that starts to get his Roach/hydra countered by bio/tank, there is no close transition tech. You basically have to switch out of ranged and into melee (ultras/banelings) with massive infrastructural costs (tech, melee upgrades, specific upgrades) and much bigger time requirements.
Additionally the Immortal would be weaker at cheesing (less damage vs bunkers/spines) and better at worker harass. It would be more all around vs Zerg attacks (hydra/ling defense without Colossi, wohoo), while I think I have never I think the only two things that would have to be considered is how Protoss deals with lategame ultras if the immortal has less damage vs armored.seen a roach max build in HotS just due to gateway expand pressure and Stargate builds already making them impossible.
(too lazy to quote big J properly) if Immortals scale decently(attack upgrades) they would still be usable vs ultras in the late game, like if they get + 5 as they do now that would mean full ugprade ultras take 44 damage or 12 hits to die (for comparison marauders take 32 hits to kill an ultralisk) immortals hit fairly quickly (something else that can be looked at :D) so they should still do fine provided they have the right support.
You can 100% do a modernzided roach max in hots even now with immortals doing less damage to roaches it might be quite scary
Was this here? Is the translation correct? Because If yes then we have 2 very very very good Protoss players thinking about T being OP
Edit> Zest + Rain(BL Infestor level! )
That's a really interesting datapoint
But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though.
Was this here? Is the translation correct? Because If yes then we have 2 very very very good Protoss players thinking about T being OP
Edit> Zest + Rain(BL Infestor level! )
That's a really interesting datapoint
But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though.
Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one.
Was this here? Is the translation correct? Because If yes then we have 2 very very very good Protoss players thinking about T being OP
Edit> Zest + Rain(BL Infestor level! )
There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying.
But it's Zest :>
I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup.
Was this here? Is the translation correct? Because If yes then we have 2 very very very good Protoss players thinking about T being OP
Edit> Zest + Rain(BL Infestor level! )
That's a really interesting datapoint
But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though.
Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one.
Was this here? Is the translation correct? Because If yes then we have 2 very very very good Protoss players thinking about T being OP
Edit> Zest + Rain(BL Infestor level! )
There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying.
But it's Zest :>
I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup.
Well, that thread shows multiple top Protoss players complaining about Terran.
EPT
I get the sentiment though.
