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On November 29 2014 21:58 GodZo wrote:
still with this story! SC2 is just a bad game (and BW is my favourite game ever).
bad mechanics, bad balance, bad economy, bad units, bad story. People should to play an SC2 mod, instead of the official game.
I can go in details, but it should be a long thread, very sad...
You could go in details but a you don't want to override TL with bullshit.
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I detailed it in a lot of threads yet, on TL and on battle.net forums, since the beginning of WoL, simply this is not the right place to speak about. And, you maybe say bullshits, not me.
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If you look at stats overall they look fine, but lately most premier tournaments ro8 and on are very terran heavy, and zerg light.
Life being the exception, maybe Soulkey can carry zerg on hotsix, but I think he's losing to Zest.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 29 2014 23:44 FanaticCZ wrote:
How about u whiners wait for a new map pool that hopefully wont be so T favored?...
Its pretty obvious that nothing will change with the current maps so I think it would be wise to wait for new maps before making conclusions. If nothing changes then I will agree with the fact that T is favored in TvZ.
What do you expect when Blizzard screws the pro scene with dreampool and ignores the problem completely for next 2 months(and a big tournament like DHW)? Honestly, last few months you see pretty bad games. I mean, yesterday at DH:W it was complete Terran dominance. Everything went 3:0, I had more fun watching CS:GO than SC2 and I really love SC2. But as much as I hated the PvZ period I hate nowadays with Protoss pro saying Terran is too strong and map pool not being changed.
Last time Blizzard was not waiting on map pool change... maybe it is time to reconsider ,-)
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United Kingdom147 Posts
On November 29 2014 21:58 GodZo wrote:
still with this story! SC2 is just a bad game (and BW is my favourite game ever).
bad mechanics, bad balance, bad economy, bad units, bad story. People should to play an SC2 mod, instead of the official game.
I can go in details, but it should be a long thread, very sad...
if you check on the sidebar theres a broodwar forum over to your left, im sure youll be happier over there
though i have to say, pretty lazy attempt at flamebaiting/trolling
edit: back on topic do you think that just changing the maps alone to less T favoured maps might help? or do you think the main problem is how predictable protoss play has had to become/ danger of scv pulls?
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I'll parrot previous posts first : it doesn't matter with lotv in the way...
But to answer the specific question, imagine playing TvP on #dreampool
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if you check on the sidebar theres a broodwar forum over to your left, im sure youll be happier over there
Well, I know Team Liquid before you was born, or you still was playing with Duplo.
I played at high level in Brood War and Warcraft III, and I know what means a quality game or a big game.
Well, SC2 is far from previous Blizzard RTS, and my critiques are because I love SC universe, but pretty sad to see how it became,
I don't think that LOTV will be better, but I would to give a chance to Blizzard, they have resources but maybe they have not good designers atm, so I'm not optimistic.
My critique is not a troll (how youngs call it), but it's simply a comment, SC2 have several problems, and they can't be fixed with a patch, but with big updates.
This is my opinion, if you don't agree, you are free of argument it, otherwise your comments and suggestions are useless.
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On November 18 2014 06:16 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 06:03 pure.Wasted wrote:Tallying map score over the last four premier tournaments. At MSI (Korean vs Korean matches only): ZvT 5-0 (Rogue vs Flash/Rogue vs Yoda) ZvP 4-3 (Solar vs Parting) At Blizzcon: ZvT 11-12 ZvP 6-2 At Hot6 Qualifiers: ZvT 34-35 ZvP 27-27 At HSC V (Korean vs Korean matches in ro16+ only): ZvT 6-6 ZvP 6-11 Result:ZvT 56-53 (51.3%)
ZvP 43-43 (50%)The numbers alone, over the last four premier tournaments, favor Zerg in ZvT but not by a meaningful margin. On November 18 2014 03:26 DinoMight wrote:Now when you look at all the best Terrans for example, and find that they all have ridiculously high TvZ rates compared to the top Zergs' ZvT rates it means either: 1) People who chose Terran inherantly are more skilled (which we don't believe to be true) or 2) Top Terrans do better against top Zergs because of something neither can control (such as game balance).
This is how I justify my view that TvZ is currently imbalaned favoring Terran. Even though it's possible for Zergs to beat Terrans, and it happens often, it's mostly meaningless unless you look at the top few players of each race. It's possible to look at the top 100 players and get a near 50% win rate in TvZ. But there's a reason we ignore Bronze league when discussing game balance their wins and losses have nothing to do with balance but more with their own ability to correctly press the buttons on the keyboard. Looking at top Zerg players from the last four tournaments, Life has a 9-2 record in ZvT, soO has 1-3, Rogue has 7-0, Solar has 5-3, Jaedong has 4-3, Losira has 3-2, Dark has 2-1, Hyun has 2-6, DRG is 4-2, and Soulkey has 6-5. The only Zerg you could conceivably add to this top 10 list is TRUE, but he didn't play any Terrans in the last two months so there are no games on record. For top 10 Zergs this gives us a ZvT rate of 43-25 or 63% over the last 4 premier tournaments. You'd probably say "but those Zergs' results are inflated from beating up on shitty players." Looking at only top 10-ish Terrans from the last 4 premier tournaments in TvZ: Flash vs Losira 2-0 Flash vs Rogue 0-2 Innovation vs Hyun 3-1 Taeja vs soO 3-2 Taeja vs Life 2-3 Taeja vs Hyun 3-1 MMA vs Life 1-4 TY vs Losira 0-3 TY vs Solar 2-1 TY vs Hydra 0-2 TY vs Dark 3-2 TY vs Rogue 0-2 Bomber vs Jaedong 3-2 Gumiho vs Soulkey 1-2 (Gumiho's been looking very strong lately, he seems to be the Terran Losira parallel) That gives us a record of 24-28 favoring Zerg. I don't have to explain what that says about the idea that top Terrans are invincible in TvZ. I see nothing in your post that is in any way supported by what's been going on at tournaments lately. If you want to talk about the content of games, sure, Terrans absolutely have more variety in their builds than they used to, and that may be forcing Zergs to play more all-ins which are boring to watch or are coin-flippy or something of that nature. But is any of this translating to Terran domination? No, by every metric I can think of, whether we look at full tournament results or just top vs top, Zerg are winning in TvZ. Not by a wide enough margin to indicate any imbalance. On November 18 2014 04:25 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:
To be frank, I don't understand the argument that balance only matters for the top10 players or so.
What makes it so that balance isn't a factor in Marinekings play, but is in Innovations play? If Innovation is incapable of performing something that would be necessary to have a fair chance in a matchup, why would someone weaker not be influenced by that?
Of course, you could say Marineking could still just improve to Innovation's level and beat the players that Innovation beats, but MK currently can't. But removing the imbalance that is disfavoring Terran in that example might do the trick as well. So MK is influenced by the imbalance. He is not influenced in a sense that he would be a champion without it. But he is influenced in the sense that he would be placing better and earning more than he currently does, suffering from the imbalance.
I agree that blizzard can't really force balance on players that have trouble injecting or just following basic BOs and strategies. But I think the least amount of balance we should be keeping is that the whole standing pro-scene has overall somewhat balanced conditions. His decision making is so bad that it's hard to know what exactly needs to be tweaked. You could argue that buildings' flying speed should get a buff based on how many times his stupid shit fails and he has to fly back to his base... Haha, that's hard to argue with. Well okay. A couple of things... So I posted some numbers a few pages back. Basically I looked at all TvZ since the patch (not just the last few where Life and Rogue went around stomping people) between top Zergs and top Terrans. So not the winrate of top Zergs vs. Terrans and then top Terrans vs. Zergs but rather, their record of playing against each other. When you look at the top 10 Zergs and the top 10 Terrans (you come up with whatever list you think is fair based on performance/tournament finishes, etc.) going head to head against each other in games played since the patch, the series won by Terran vastly outnumber those won by Zergs. When I posted this I was told that I was "cherry picking" results.. but I think that's missing the point. My entire argument IS that balance only shows at the top top tier of the game. So in order to investigate balance you can't be looking elsewhere.
It depends entirely on how you define Top Zergs.
Many of the top and successful Zergs of 2014 have awful TvZ. Hyun and Jaedong are great examples.
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United Kingdom147 Posts
On December 01 2014 02:22 GodZo wrote:Show nested quote +if you check on the sidebar theres a broodwar forum over to your left, im sure youll be happier over there Well, I know Team Liquid before you was born, or you still was playing with Duplo. I played at high level in Brood War and Warcraft III, and I know what means a quality game or a big game. Well, SC2 is far from previous Blizzard RTS, and my critiques are because I love SC universe, but pretty sad to see how it became, I don't think that LOTV will be better, but I would to give a chance to Blizzard, they have resources but maybe they have not good designers atm, so I'm not optimistic. My critique is not a troll (how youngs call it), but it's simply a comment, SC2 have several problems, and they can't be fixed with a patch, but with big updates. This is my opinion, if you don't agree, you are free of argument it, otherwise your comments and suggestions are useless.
if you hate sc2 then why bother coming on the sc2 forum to complain about it? or this thread of all places XD
if you dont like the game dont play it,its pretty simple
if you like wc3 and bw go talk to people in those forums who are like minded?
pretty obvious attempt at trolling
i thought D3 was a shitestain compared to diablo2 and i quite the game long before they fixed it with ROS, i dont spend my time complaining in the d3 forums what a letdown it was, i just played poe and d2 
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On November 18 2014 06:03 pure.Wasted wrote:
Tallying map score over the last four premier tournaments.
At MSI (Korean vs Korean matches only):
ZvT 5-0 (Rogue vs Flash/Rogue vs Yoda)
ZvP 4-3 (Solar vs Parting)
At Blizzcon:
ZvT 11-12
ZvP 6-2
At Hot6 Qualifiers:
ZvT 34-35
ZvP 27-27
At HSC V (Korean vs Korean matches in ro16+ only):
ZvT 6-6
ZvP 6-11
Result:
ZvT 56-53 (51.3%)
ZvP 43-43 (50%)
The numbers alone, over the last four premier tournaments, favor Zerg in ZvT but not by a meaningful margin.
Updating these results with Hot6ix ro16, the rest of HSC V, and DH:W:
4-4, 7-6, and 23-21 in Korean vs Korean matches gives us ZvT numbers of 90-84, or 51.7% in favor of Zerg.
This is marginally better for Zerg than the previous marginally-Zerg-favored stat of 51.3%.
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if you hate sc2 then why bother coming on the sc2 forum to complain about it?
I don't hate sc2, I never said this, and your are the classic person without logic, that copy paste "kappa" in the chats.
if you dont like the game dont play it,its pretty simple
I like SC universe, I played SC2, but I don't play it at the moment, but still I follow the pro scene,
AND I don't need a suggestion by a person without brain, also I don't need suggestions in general, to play a game or not,
I'm free to play or not games, AND i'm free to comment any game I want.
Now i report you, hoping in a your ban, because continue to spam the thread, and insult.
User was warned for this post
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fuck you team liquid
User was temp banned for this post.
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The new balance report from aligulac for November:
PvZ: 52.21%
TvZ: 47.99%
PvT: 46.48%
Pretty happy for the PvZ stats swinging back, crossing that matchup from my "to watch" list. 
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This thread will be kinda obsolete until lotv releases. Lotv is gonna fix all the current issues and ofc. create a bunch of new.
The new units are going to address most of the mentioned. Terran probably will have to and will be able to vary unit compositions and adapt alot more than now and this is gonna result in new exciting games to be played and watched and less boredom.
From a future point of view it will probably be unbelievable that we all had to suffer 4+ years of minimum variance in TvZ (the same is basically true for TvP). Lets hope that they manage to create good options for all races and metagames will not get stuck in bio being too good against everything as it is now.
P.s: Broodwar is actually a perfect example of how to give bio certain roles and enough strengthes without making it the blind choice of everyone at any time and in any situation. I want some of this back for sc2.
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On December 02 2014 03:50 LSN wrote:
This thread will be kinda obsolete until lotv releases. Lotv is gonna fix all the current issues and ofc. create a bunch of new.
The new units are going to address most of the mentioned. Terran probably will have to and will be able to vary unit compositions and adapt alot more than now and this is gonna result in new exciting games to be played and watched and less boredom.
From a future point of view it will probably be unbelievable that we all had to suffer 4+ years of minimum variance in TvZ (the same is basically true for TvP). Lets hope that they manage to create good options for all races and metagames will not get stuck in bio being too good against everything as it is now.
???
We always knew that LotV would shake up the game, if you think a discussion is usless now you would have had to think it was useless all along to discuss balance.
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I hope Blizzard doesn't think the same way as LSN :D
There still will be a lot of Hots tournaments next year (probably the whole year^^)
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On December 02 2014 03:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 03:50 LSN wrote:
This thread will be kinda obsolete until lotv releases. Lotv is gonna fix all the current issues and ofc. create a bunch of new.
The new units are going to address most of the mentioned. Terran probably will have to and will be able to vary unit compositions and adapt alot more than now and this is gonna result in new exciting games to be played and watched and less boredom.
From a future point of view it will probably be unbelievable that we all had to suffer 4+ years of minimum variance in TvZ (the same is basically true for TvP). Lets hope that they manage to create good options for all races and metagames will not get stuck in bio being too good against everything as it is now. ??? We always knew that LotV would shake up the game, if you think a discussion is usless now you would have had to think it was useless all along to discuss balance.
I was talking about the option that SC2 has finally got the chance to become the game that alot of us oldschoolers wanted it to be, actually. Lets hope blizzard uses this chance. And that the current sc2 from a future perspective will be appearing quite "minor" if they succeed in doing so.
On December 02 2014 03:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope Blizzard doesn't think the same way as LSN :D
There still will be a lot of Hots tournaments next year (probably the whole year^^)
As many tournaments as you like!
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On December 02 2014 03:41 Big J wrote:The new balance report from aligulac for November: PvZ: 52.21% TvZ: 47.99% TvP: 46.48% Pretty happy for the PvZ stats swinging back, crossing that matchup from my "to watch" list.
Game balance is pretty guud. /thread
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On December 02 2014 03:41 Big J wrote:
The new balance report from aligulac for November:
PvZ: 52.21%
TvZ: 47.99%
TvP: 46.48%
You probably meant PvT 46.48%. TvP would be 53.52%
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On December 02 2014 04:35 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 03:41 Big J wrote:
The new balance report from aligulac for November:
PvZ: 52.21%
TvZ: 47.99%
TvP: 46.48% You probably meant PvT 46.48%. TvP would be 53.52%
Yes, thank you. Fixed.
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EPT
