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It will be interesting to see what Blizzard is going to come up with in LotV to address this. I'm not saying that it is imbalanced "now" I'm saying that it 99% will be, if the announced concept gets implemented that players have to expand much more aggressively and have to defend more bases early on.
The problem is pretty clear as it has been since WoL-Beta: the colossus. It's a terrible unit in situations when several smaller battles take place pretty much constantly. Even pure marauders can take care of 1-2 colossi with only a handful of zealots/stalkers.
I'm thinking maybe the redesigned immortal, but then again this unit is the epitome of "immobile" and hardly capable of dealing with multi-pronged harrass based on lack of speed and clunky-ness alone....
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On November 27 2014 01:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 01:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:That's a really interesting datapoint  But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis  I get the sentiment though. Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one. Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 01:31 Karpfen wrote:There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying. But it's Zest :> I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup.
Zest's PvT was subpar throughout 2014 though. It was never his strongest matchup. He looked helpless vs Maru back in s2, before the WM buffs.
This is not to say there aren't any issues. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Zest and Rain both play predominantly straight-up macro slugfests in PvT, and both of them struggle much more than players of their caliber should. (so if anything, I'm saying the issues are much more serious than balance tweaking)
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On November 27 2014 08:26 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 01:48 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2014 01:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:That's a really interesting datapoint But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though. Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one. On November 27 2014 01:31 Karpfen wrote:There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying. But it's Zest :> I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup. Zest's PvT was subpar throughout 2014 though. It was never his strongest matchup. He looked helpless vs Maru back in s2, before the WM buffs. This is not to say there aren't any issues. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Zest and Rain both play predominantly straight-up macro slugfests in PvT, and both of them struggle much more than players of their caliber should. (so if anything, I'm saying the issues are much more serious than balance tweaking)
Yeah, I agree with you here. Stylistically macro Protosses are having a hard time vs. Terran...but then again stylistically macro Protosses couldn't beat Savior until some guy named Bisu showed them how it was done. With this particular case I think someone is going to figure something out given a little bit of time.
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On November 27 2014 09:07 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 08:26 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 27 2014 01:48 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2014 01:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:That's a really interesting datapoint But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though. Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one. On November 27 2014 01:31 Karpfen wrote:There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying. But it's Zest :> I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup. Zest's PvT was subpar throughout 2014 though. It was never his strongest matchup. He looked helpless vs Maru back in s2, before the WM buffs. This is not to say there aren't any issues. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Zest and Rain both play predominantly straight-up macro slugfests in PvT, and both of them struggle much more than players of their caliber should. (so if anything, I'm saying the issues are much more serious than balance tweaking) Yeah, I agree with you here. Stylistically macro Protosses are having a hard time vs. Terran...but then again stylistically macro Protosses couldn't beat Savior until some guy named Bisu showed them how it was done. With this particular case I think someone is going to figure something out given a little bit of time.
Protoss players just had bad luck, in any other time the new map pool would have addressed these issues, they just got royaly screwed because of the dream pool, so there are no new maps to help them
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tbh i think terrans strength has a lot to do with how ridiculously T favoured catalena some merry go round are especially TvP ( though somewhat in ZvT aswell), since this map pool was desgined for a time terran was getting whalloped and now there much much stronger :L.
sucks we got stuck with this shietey dreampool since pros have to continue to play T favoured maps till next year
if only the dreampool had included good maps like whirlwind!
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On November 27 2014 10:46 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 09:07 mierin wrote:On November 27 2014 08:26 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 27 2014 01:48 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2014 01:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:That's a really interesting datapoint But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though. Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one. On November 27 2014 01:31 Karpfen wrote:There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying. But it's Zest :> I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup. Zest's PvT was subpar throughout 2014 though. It was never his strongest matchup. He looked helpless vs Maru back in s2, before the WM buffs. This is not to say there aren't any issues. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Zest and Rain both play predominantly straight-up macro slugfests in PvT, and both of them struggle much more than players of their caliber should. (so if anything, I'm saying the issues are much more serious than balance tweaking) Yeah, I agree with you here. Stylistically macro Protosses are having a hard time vs. Terran...but then again stylistically macro Protosses couldn't beat Savior until some guy named Bisu showed them how it was done. With this particular case I think someone is going to figure something out given a little bit of time. Protoss players just had bad luck, in any other time the new map pool would have addressed these issues, they just got royaly screwed because of the dream pool, so there are no new maps to help them
Tournaments are not played on the dreampool, friend (The dreampool is actually insanely P favoured but i'll let that slip).
Edit: maybe I missinterpreted that. You meant they had to make new maps to address the issue instead of getting these old ones that obviously can't be used in tournaments?
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On November 28 2014 20:29 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 10:46 Lexender wrote:On November 27 2014 09:07 mierin wrote:On November 27 2014 08:26 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 27 2014 01:48 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2014 01:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:That's a really interesting datapoint But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though. Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one. On November 27 2014 01:31 Karpfen wrote:There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying. But it's Zest :> I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup. Zest's PvT was subpar throughout 2014 though. It was never his strongest matchup. He looked helpless vs Maru back in s2, before the WM buffs. This is not to say there aren't any issues. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Zest and Rain both play predominantly straight-up macro slugfests in PvT, and both of them struggle much more than players of their caliber should. (so if anything, I'm saying the issues are much more serious than balance tweaking) Yeah, I agree with you here. Stylistically macro Protosses are having a hard time vs. Terran...but then again stylistically macro Protosses couldn't beat Savior until some guy named Bisu showed them how it was done. With this particular case I think someone is going to figure something out given a little bit of time. Protoss players just had bad luck, in any other time the new map pool would have addressed these issues, they just got royaly screwed because of the dream pool, so there are no new maps to help them Tournaments are not played on the dreampool, friend (The dreampool is actually insanely P favoured but i'll let that slip). Edit: maybe I missinterpreted that. You meant they had to make new maps to address the issue instead of getting these old ones that obviously can't be used in tournaments?
Yeah in any othey season the changes to the map pool would've helped with a lot of issues, since instead of that we got the dream pool tournaments are stuck with a map pool from when terran was the weakest race, so it creates a lot of imbalance, is like if they decided to keep yeonsu and heavy rain for another season
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On November 28 2014 20:46 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 20:29 Karpfen wrote:On November 27 2014 10:46 Lexender wrote:On November 27 2014 09:07 mierin wrote:On November 27 2014 08:26 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 27 2014 01:48 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2014 01:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:That's a really interesting datapoint But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though. Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one. On November 27 2014 01:31 Karpfen wrote:There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying. But it's Zest :> I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup. Zest's PvT was subpar throughout 2014 though. It was never his strongest matchup. He looked helpless vs Maru back in s2, before the WM buffs. This is not to say there aren't any issues. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Zest and Rain both play predominantly straight-up macro slugfests in PvT, and both of them struggle much more than players of their caliber should. (so if anything, I'm saying the issues are much more serious than balance tweaking) Yeah, I agree with you here. Stylistically macro Protosses are having a hard time vs. Terran...but then again stylistically macro Protosses couldn't beat Savior until some guy named Bisu showed them how it was done. With this particular case I think someone is going to figure something out given a little bit of time. Protoss players just had bad luck, in any other time the new map pool would have addressed these issues, they just got royaly screwed because of the dream pool, so there are no new maps to help them Tournaments are not played on the dreampool, friend (The dreampool is actually insanely P favoured but i'll let that slip). Edit: maybe I missinterpreted that. You meant they had to make new maps to address the issue instead of getting these old ones that obviously can't be used in tournaments? Yeah in any othey season the changes to the map pool would've helped with a lot of issues, since instead of that we got the dream pool tournaments are stuck with a map pool from when terran was the weakest race, so it creates a lot of imbalance, is like if they decided to keep yeonsu and heavy rain for another season
I can agree with your opinion. I really dislike how a whole season is with these old maps.
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On November 28 2014 20:29 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 10:46 Lexender wrote:On November 27 2014 09:07 mierin wrote:On November 27 2014 08:26 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 27 2014 01:48 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2014 01:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:That's a really interesting datapoint But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though. Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one. On November 27 2014 01:31 Karpfen wrote:There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying. But it's Zest :> I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup. Zest's PvT was subpar throughout 2014 though. It was never his strongest matchup. He looked helpless vs Maru back in s2, before the WM buffs. This is not to say there aren't any issues. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Zest and Rain both play predominantly straight-up macro slugfests in PvT, and both of them struggle much more than players of their caliber should. (so if anything, I'm saying the issues are much more serious than balance tweaking) Yeah, I agree with you here. Stylistically macro Protosses are having a hard time vs. Terran...but then again stylistically macro Protosses couldn't beat Savior until some guy named Bisu showed them how it was done. With this particular case I think someone is going to figure something out given a little bit of time. Protoss players just had bad luck, in any other time the new map pool would have addressed these issues, they just got royaly screwed because of the dream pool, so there are no new maps to help them Tournaments are not played on the dreampool, friend (The dreampool is actually insanely P favoured but i'll let that slip). Edit: maybe I missinterpreted that. You meant they had to make new maps to address the issue instead of getting these old ones that obviously can't be used in tournaments?
yeah to clarify because we have the dreampool ( which obviously cant be used in tournaments) pros have to play on last seasons old T favoured maps which is kinda exacerbating the problem atm :L
that and plenty of pros have complained about how de-motivating it is for practice
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On November 29 2014 05:24 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 20:29 Karpfen wrote:On November 27 2014 10:46 Lexender wrote:On November 27 2014 09:07 mierin wrote:On November 27 2014 08:26 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 27 2014 01:48 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2014 01:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:That's a really interesting datapoint But your math makes me giggle since it suggests that only rain thinks it's BL/Infestor level due to the arrangement of the parenthesis I get the sentiment though. Yes, only Rain said that :-) It is a longterm joke now, at least in tourney threads whenever P wins and it is not a close one. On November 27 2014 01:31 Karpfen wrote:There were zergs whining P during BL infestor era..... just saying. But it's Zest :> I wanted to show that now we have 2 top players saying Terran is stronger :> Though it is off season now, maybe we will have some surprise during January based on IEM and Hot6ix cup. Zest's PvT was subpar throughout 2014 though. It was never his strongest matchup. He looked helpless vs Maru back in s2, before the WM buffs. This is not to say there aren't any issues. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Zest and Rain both play predominantly straight-up macro slugfests in PvT, and both of them struggle much more than players of their caliber should. (so if anything, I'm saying the issues are much more serious than balance tweaking) Yeah, I agree with you here. Stylistically macro Protosses are having a hard time vs. Terran...but then again stylistically macro Protosses couldn't beat Savior until some guy named Bisu showed them how it was done. With this particular case I think someone is going to figure something out given a little bit of time. Protoss players just had bad luck, in any other time the new map pool would have addressed these issues, they just got royaly screwed because of the dream pool, so there are no new maps to help them Tournaments are not played on the dreampool, friend (The dreampool is actually insanely P favoured but i'll let that slip). Edit: maybe I missinterpreted that. You meant they had to make new maps to address the issue instead of getting these old ones that obviously can't be used in tournaments? yeah to clarify because we have the dreampool ( which obviously cant be used in tournaments) pros have to play on last seasons old T favoured maps which is kinda exacerbating the problem atm :L that and plenty of pros have complained about how de-motivating it is for practice
They are using Daybreak though, which makes sense since it doesn't have any very apparent issues. Maybe with the 1% of games in which Protoss would have to take a 5th against SHs.
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Dreanhack PvT 6:23(4:23 between Koreans), PvT under 50% for 9th straight month. Thoughts?
Thaws why this neverending TvZ debate was confusing for me since there is more problematic matchup for some time now.
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SC2 is totally broken, Blizzard stop to patch SC2 and retire from RTS!
User was warned for this post
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terrans are just the better players
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still with this story! SC2 is just a bad game (and BW is my favourite game ever).
bad mechanics, bad balance, bad economy, bad units, bad story. People should to play an SC2 mod, instead of the official game.
I can go in details, but it should be a long thread, very sad...
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On November 29 2014 21:32 keglu wrote:
Dreanhack PvT 6:23(4:23 between Koreans), PvT under 50% for 9th straight month. Thoughts?
Thaws why this neverending TvZ debate was confusing for me since there is more problematic matchup for some time now.
Well protoss got the same treatment in DH that zergs had before, but remember that all zergs (except Life) got eliminated before. Blizzcon flashbacks.
It's not that TvZ is more or less problematic than TvP. It's just that terrans once again only lost against other terrans.
But yeah, the terran players are just the better players. And non-terrans just played worse. Or had bad luck. Also, all terrans players started playing much better in august so obviously they're better.
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too bad aTnCloud isnt playing anymore. but i guess, even in these times he would bitch about the infestor...
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On November 29 2014 22:16 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 21:32 keglu wrote:
Dreanhack PvT 6:23(4:23 between Koreans), PvT under 50% for 9th straight month. Thoughts?
Thaws why this neverending TvZ debate was confusing for me since there is more problematic matchup for some time now. It's not that TvZ is more or less problematic than TvP. It's just that terrans once again only lost against other terrans.
Really?
Dreamhack TvZ 12–16 (42.86%)
Currentl aligualc list TvZ 34–55 (38.20%)
List 124: TvZ 245–253 (49.20%)
List 123 TvZ 170–173 (49.56%)
Seems broken...
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On November 29 2014 22:16 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 21:32 keglu wrote:
Dreanhack PvT 6:23(4:23 between Koreans), PvT under 50% for 9th straight month. Thoughts?
Thaws why this neverending TvZ debate was confusing for me since there is more problematic matchup for some time now. Well protoss got the same treatment in DH that zergs had before, but remember that all zergs (except Life) got eliminated before. Blizzcon flashbacks. It's not that TvZ is more or less problematic than TvP. It's just that terrans once again only lost against other terrans. But yeah, the terran players are just the better players. And non-terrans just played worse. Or had bad luck. Also, all terrans players started playing much better in august so obviously they're better.
Terrans master race comment again? You even sound serrious saying this.
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How about u whiners wait for a new map pool that hopefully wont be so T favored?...
Its pretty obvious that nothing will change with the current maps so I think it would be wise to wait for new maps before making conclusions. If nothing changes then I will agree with the fact that T is favored in TvZ.
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EPT
