Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1212

On December 02 2014 03:41 Big J wrote:
The new balance report from aligulac for November:
PvZ: 52.21%
TvZ: 47.99%
PvT: 46.48%

Pretty happy for the PvZ stats swinging back, crossing that matchup from my "to watch" list.

On December 04 2014 22:55 inken wrote:
Not at the highest tournament level. Finally Blizzard made an honest statement:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/472567-update-on-hots-balance-december-3

(but is drawing the wrong conclusions I'm afraid...)

On December 02 2014 03:41 Big J wrote:
The new balance report from aligulac for November:
PvZ: 52.21%
TvZ: 47.99%
PvT: 46.48%

Pretty happy for the PvZ stats swinging back, crossing that matchup from my "to watch" list.

On December 04 2014 23:08 Tuczniak wrote:
Where is antiRW to do his method. I don't find Aligulac very relevant in this.

On December 04 2014 23:08 Tuczniak wrote:
Where is antiRW to do his method. I don't find Aligulac very relevant in this.

On December 04 2014 23:09 SC2Toastie wrote:

AntiRWs method?

On December 04 2014 23:54 Lexender wrote:


The patch isn't even addressed towards balance its just for variety by getting templar openers back, something the community has been asking, the nerf won't change much if anything for colossus openers. Thats way they aren't changing anything in TvZ, they think new maps should be the solution, and so does the community

On December 04 2014 23:54 Lexender wrote:


The patch isn't even addressed towards balance its just for variety by getting templar openers back, something the community has been asking, the nerf won't change much if anything for colossus openers. Thats way they aren't changing anything in TvZ, they think new maps should be the solution, and so does the community

On December 05 2014 00:00 DinoMight wrote:


Well you're just looking at direct impact with perfect information.

Knowing in advance your opponent will go Colossus is a big advantage and allows you to start Viking production sooner, almost blindly. Adding back the possibility of Templar strengthens both styles of play because the opponent now has to scout more and can't necessarily blind 2x Starport.

On December 05 2014 00:16 Superbanana wrote:
So we expect more big open maps, that are less drop happy? +Templar openings back to meta?
Sounds perfect!

On December 05 2014 00:21 Big J wrote:

please no, we don't want to buff Protoss vs Zerg. What was the last good big map that was really good for Zerg in that matchup? Waystation I guess because of the impossible 3rd base. Otherwise, big just means "haha, no swarm hosts or timing attacks for you, free turtling into maxed deathballs and pylons everywhere!!!".
If you want a good zerg map, make 2nd and 3rd designs that allow (counter-)aggression and spread the 4th a bit away from the 3rd (no Nimbus/Deadwing baseclusters with one or 1.5paths).
Open (around the center) is good though for Zerg, because that's required for ultralisk playstyles vs Protoss.

On December 05 2014 00:27 Superbanana wrote:

Yeah i was thinking about TvZ.
I was not clear, i meant open center and big rush distance (thinking about TvZ). But yeah, hopefully the map pool doesn't affect PvZ since its probably well balanced, and if rush distance is big it might happen so i dunno :/

At the highest level Zerg had a quite a few lows against Protoss in the periode since the latest patch, Code A (20%), Hot6 Cup (16%), Dreamhack (41%), Blizzcon (25%). Also I think the other two challenger leagues in EU and AM were both like 20-25%.

On December 05 2014 00:15 TheDwf wrote:

That's wrong. The second Starport is never made before 10'45 - 11' at the very earliest, and by that time Terran already has the colo or Templar information via an earlier scan or the Medivac push.

On December 05 2014 00:21 Big J wrote:

please no, we don't want to buff Protoss vs Zerg. What was the last good big map that was really good for Zerg in that matchup? Waystation I guess because of the impossible 3rd base. Otherwise, big just means "haha, no swarm hosts or timing attacks for you, free turtling into maxed deathballs and pylons everywhere!!!".
If you want a good zerg map, make 2nd and 3rd designs that allow (counter-)aggression and spread the 4th a bit away from the 3rd (no Nimbus/Deadwing baseclusters with one or 1.5paths).
Open (around the center) is good though for Zerg, because that's required for ultralisk playstyles vs Protoss.

On December 05 2014 00:41 Big J wrote:


PvZ winrates on Catallena, Foxtrot and Nimbus are all as bad or nearly as bad as the TvP ones on those maps. Deadwing is hardly better. Merry Go Round makes up a little for this, but at the end of the day Zerg is in a similar position against Protoss, as Protoss is against Terran on that mappool. 4 bad maps, 1good one and the other two really balanced.
As blizzard said, at the highest level Zergs are struggling in both matchups a bit. Some PvZ tournament stats since the latest patch:
I think maps played a huge role in that, while overall the matchup is quite good. In general, all the matchups seem very fair when being played on Overgrowth and King Sejong Station. TvZ seems fair on Merry Go Round as well (yeah, hard 4th base for Zerg, but also very bustable 2nd and 3rd bases for Terran!).

I also think that Merry Go Round and Deadwing are acceptable balancewise, they favor one race a little bit over another, but it is within a reasonable margin and adds a little bit of flavor to the mappool. But I think 2 really balanced maps is too few, it should be 3-5 and then 2-4 that are a little wonky. In particular, the wonky ones should be like MGR and Deadwing, not like Nimbus.

btw, anyone else thinking blizzard will reintroduce one blink map? I could see it happening, they nerfed blink quite a bit with MsC, time warp changes + widow mine buff (and even the WM nerf they propose still keeps the WM buffed in comparison). And given that they want to give Protoss a straw in maps, I think something similar to Cloud Kingdom or Yeonsu could make it in. I wouldn't even be surprised if they came out and took 1-2 maps from the Dreampool (e.g. Cloud Kingdom or Daybreak) and state that their intern data shows that those maps are fairly balanced and given they won the popularity contest, they will reintroduce them. In particular, since Daybreak is being used in that SPOTV tournament qualifier, they don't seem to be alone with the opinion that some good maps just stay good.

On December 09 2014 01:28 Superbanana wrote:

I don't put my faith in Cloud Kingdom (i like the map, but i doubt it is balanced), Daybreak i can see working.
Maybe keep Overgrowth and King Sejong for one more season? Really good maps for competitive play, and fun maps for ladder IMO.