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your Country52797 Posts
On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : )
TaeJa specifically is a completely different beast, I'm pretty sure nobody can do what he does reliably.
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Bulgaria5962 Posts
On November 16 2014 22:53 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : ) TaeJa specifically is a completely different beast, I'm pretty sure nobody can do what he does reliably.
I always thought of him as a Terran version of Life, he has that weird thing that makes him win when he shouldn't have a chance in hell too.
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On November 16 2014 23:19 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 22:53 The_Templar wrote:On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : ) TaeJa specifically is a completely different beast, I'm pretty sure nobody can do what he does reliably. I always thought of him as a Terran version of Life, he has that weird thing that makes him win when he shouldn't have a chance in hell too.
Quantitatively very similar but qualitatively very different.
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On November 16 2014 22:53 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : ) TaeJa specifically is a completely different beast, I'm pretty sure nobody can do what he does reliably.
What is it that he does? Qxc, bunny and dayshii were about as puzzled as what taeja does as I am. They just called it the taeja effect.
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On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : )
Poor argument. They should be comparable to the best Zergs in the world and yet I can't see a single Zerg who can even challenge or beat them. If you don't see a problem with ZvT right now you're ignorant.
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On November 17 2014 01:11 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : ) Poor argument. They should be comparable to the best Zergs in the world and yet I can't see a single Zerg who can even challenge or beat them. If you don't see a problem with ZvT right now you're ignorant.
Look out, there is blizzcon! Reality could strive you!
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If we look at the top 1000 players or the top 100 it is likely that the skill level should be similar between the races.
But if we look that the top 10 players in the world it not likely the skill is evenly distributed between the races since it is such a small sample.
One race would likely have more players that have top 10 skill compared to the other races. And that race happens to be Terran.
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Bulgaria5962 Posts
On November 17 2014 01:11 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : ) Poor argument. They should be comparable to the best Zergs in the world and yet I can't see a single Zerg who can even challenge or beat them. If you don't see a problem with ZvT right now you're ignorant. Your Sarcasm detector might be broken.
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On November 17 2014 01:57 MockHamill wrote:
If we look at the top 1000 players or the top 100 it is likely that the skill level should be similar between the races.
But if we look that the top 10 players in the world it not likely the skill is evenly distributed between the races since it is such a small sample.
One race would likely have more players that have top 10 skill compared to the other races. And that race happens to be Terran.
Funny, before the last patch it looked like Terran just happened to be the worst race at the top-level, while below the GSL level basically all stats were within acceptable winrates and racial distributions...
An unbiased observer may come to the conclusion that if a race is slightly underpowered, everyone at the toplevel will be underpowerforming, thus performing on a slightly lower level and at that level everything is fine while above that there is a lack of players of that race.
And vis-verca, when a race is slightly overpowered, everyone at the toplevel will be overpowerforming, thus even slightly weaker players will be capable of performing amongst the best of the other races.
Ergo statements as you make them are impossible to prove because we don't have information about when the game is actually balanced. We can only measure the combination of power level of players + balance, never one on its own.
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On November 17 2014 02:52 Big J wrote:Ergo statements as you make them are impossible to prove because we don't have information about when the game is actually balanced. We can only measure the combination of power level of players + balance, never one on its own.
The only reasonable assumption to make is that high level players are similar in skill.
As soon as you are willing to accept "Players of X race are just better" then there is no point in discussing balance because such a statement can explain anything and is impossible to prove or falsify.
Even if the most skilled SC2 players were predisposed to prefer a certain race (maybe people with high IQ like purple or something) the game should still be balanced around that fact if we want to see an even race distribution.
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On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : )
you can be a sarcastic dick all you want but none of those other players come close to teaja and havent won as much as him and have all be up and down, were teaja really hasnt, he has been good forever, mine nerf fine, hellbat nerf fine, buffs fine, doesnt matter the others you named all had a hard times through the year. you can all cry all you want about balance but teaja is other level. you dont get it thats fine
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On November 17 2014 06:05 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : ) you can be a sarcastic dick all you want but none of those other players come close to teaja and havent won as much as him and have all be up and down, were teaja really hasnt, he has been good forever, mine nerf fine, hellbat nerf fine, buffs fine, doesnt matter the others you named all had a hard times through the year. you can all cry all you want about balance but teaja is other level. you dont get it thats fine
Those are all the players terrans have said to be "outside" balance because they are so freaking good. Funnily no other player has ever been considered to be that good. Yes Taeja is one of the best players of the world but saying that balance does not affect him and people who don´t understand this are just wrong is just your subjective opinion. It´s not a fact.
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On November 17 2014 21:44 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 06:05 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 22:41 Awin wrote:On November 16 2014 18:03 starslayer wrote:On November 16 2014 17:23 Samx wrote:
If anything, the game mc won show how ridiculous the balance was.
For the majority of the game, mc was in taeja's base with at least 2 stalkers plus an air unit either 1 or 2 oracle, or at least a void ray. What did Taeja have? Units streaming out of production 1 by 1. Throughout that game, at all time mc had double or triple the unit supply in taeja's base and Taeja nearly made a hold.
Game 3. After doing critical damage, Taeja had half the worker count of mc, supply was about 80:50. Equal tech, MC had robo already. ToD made a superb point, you leave a terran alone for 2 minutes. You are screwed.
All Taeja did was parade push into MC's second base. Didn't matter with overcharge and collosus. Each fight was progressively in favour of Taeja. MC defended until he died.
can we stop trying to talk balance with teaja lol this guy is insane, he was winning when terran was at its lowest and hes going to dominate when things are balance or even a bit terran favored. i mean the kid is a freak it doesnt matter about balance when it comes to him. if you were talking about someone like idk yoda or someone else then ok maybe sure but teaja next level good. Yeah guys, please stop arguing about balance in games involving Taeja, Maru, Flash or Innovation. Those players are SO much better than every other zerg and protoss players that your disussion is irrelevant : ) you can be a sarcastic dick all you want but none of those other players come close to teaja and havent won as much as him and have all be up and down, were teaja really hasnt, he has been good forever, mine nerf fine, hellbat nerf fine, buffs fine, doesnt matter the others you named all had a hard times through the year. you can all cry all you want about balance but teaja is other level. you dont get it thats fine Those are all the players terrans have said to be "outside" balance because they are so freaking good. Funnily no other player has ever been considered to be that good. Yes Taeja is one of the best players of the world but saying that balance does not affect him and people who don´t understand this are just wrong is just your subjective opinion. It´s not a fact.
It's fairly easy to prove that TaeJa is affected by balance (discounting that we shouldn't even have to say this because obviously the better you are, the more you are affected by balance). He didn't perform linearly, he had more trouble beating zergs in 2012 when it was very hard, and he had more trouble beating protoss in early 2014 when it was very hard. Did he beat them sometimes, did he even win tournaments? Yeah, of course. He's a great player. That's never been in question.
It's bad logic to think that if a player beats everyone no matter the circumstances, he will beat them just as hard in favorable circumstances and in unfavorable circumstances. A part of being the best is exploiting all you can exploit. A favored race has more options, which translates to more to exploit.
And finally, since the whole discussion of 'being so much better that balance isn't a factor' has been applied to basically all the top terrans throughout the history of this forum, you can argue that it's not a player related issue, but a race related issue. It ties in to the whole discussion of 'terran is harder so terran players are more deserving'.
So I wouldn't just say it's his 'subjective opinion'. I would add that he's incorrect.
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There's no real, objective way to determine if the game is balanced or not. There simply isn't.
Maru, Flash, Taeja, Bomber are just better StarCraft 2 players and that's why they win. Maru, Flash, Taeja, Bomber are Terran players and win more because Terran is imbalanced. The two statements are just as valid. If you wanted to, you could give a reasonable explanation of why every single player lost every game and never involve balance: "they fought at the wrong time" "they engaged on/off creep" "they didn't scout Proxy Oracle correctly."
Mistakes introduce randomness in the results. Randomness skews things towards 50/50, or "balance." Ideally, we could look at players in a vaccuum where no mistakes are made. But that's impossible, because of the nature of a strategy game - every action has a consequence and affects all other actions after it. And every action depends on what your opponent is doing to an extent.. meaning two players cannot simultaneously play perfectly because the perfect action for one is by definition imperfect for the other.
So the only way to really know what "balance" is is to look at players making the least number of mistakes in their games. Aka the best players in the world.
Now when you look at all the best Terrans for example, and find that they all have ridiculously high TvZ rates compared to the top Zergs' ZvT rates it means either: 1) People who chose Terran inherantly are more skilled (which we don't believe to be true) or 2) Top Terrans do better against top Zergs because of something neither can control (such as game balance).
This is how I justify my view that TvZ is currently imbalaned favoring Terran. Even though it's possible for Zergs to beat Terrans, and it happens often, it's mostly meaningless unless you look at the top few players of each race. It's possible to look at the top 100 players and get a near 50% win rate in TvZ. But there's a reason we ignore Bronze league when discussing game balance their wins and losses have nothing to do with balance but more with their own ability to correctly press the buttons on the keyboard.
My theory is the same, just extending it all the way up the skill ladder.
A player like MarineKing has many obstacles to overcome before "balance" becomes a factor in his TvZ.
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To be frank, I don't understand the argument that balance only matters for the top10 players or so.
What makes it so that balance isn't a factor in Marinekings play, but is in Innovations play? If Innovation is incapable of performing something that would be necessary to have a fair chance in a matchup, why would someone weaker not be influenced by that?
Of course, you could say Marineking could still just improve to Innovation's level and beat the players that Innovation beats, but MK currently can't. But removing the imbalance that is disfavoring Terran in that example might do the trick as well. So MK is influenced by the imbalance. He is not influenced in a sense that he would be a champion without it. But he is influenced in the sense that he would be placing better and earning more than he currently does, suffering from the imbalance.
I agree that blizzard can't really force balance on players that have trouble injecting or just following basic BOs and strategies. But I think the least amount of balance we should be keeping is that the whole standing pro-scene has overall somewhat balanced conditions.
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On November 18 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:
To be frank, I don't understand the argument that balance only matters for the top10 players or so.
What makes it so that balance isn't a factor in Marinekings play, but is in Innovations play? If Innovation is incapable of performing something that would be necessary to have a fair chance in a matchup, why would someone weaker not be influenced by that?
Of course, you could say Marineking could still just improve to Innovation's level and beat the players that Innovation beats, but MK currently can't. But removing the imbalance that is disfavoring Terran in that example might do the trick as well. So MK is influenced by the imbalance. He is not influenced in a sense that he would be a champion without it. But he is influenced in the sense that he would be placing better and earning more than he currently does, suffering from the imbalance.
I agree that blizzard can't really force balance on players that have trouble injecting or just following basic BOs and strategies. But I think the least amount of balance we should be keeping is that the whole standing pro-scene has overall somewhat balanced conditions.
MarineKing makes too many mistakes to be able to isolate something that Blizzard needs to fix. He has really, really, really, really shit decision making.
His decision making is so bad that it's hard to know what exactly needs to be tweaked. You could argue that buildings' flying speed should get a buff based on how many times his stupid shit fails and he has to fly back to his base...
It's a silly example but you get the point. Blizzard needs to be able to put their finger on something and say "this needs to be fixed / is just fine the way ti is." When you have players making bad decisions / unforced errors it makes it impossible for Blizzard to determine that.
When you look at games of Innovation or soO or Taeja it becomes a lot more obvious. Zergs have a really hard time attacking into a defensive Terran. Terran has too many options in the early game that can transition to a macro style seamlessly but put the Zerg in too much of a defensive posture. These are arguments you could make (just examples) because the play of both players is solid enough that you can see clearly through the fog of mistakes and bad judgements.
So my argument is not that "balance has no impact" for anyone above the top 10. It's that:
1) Balance is less important than the mistakes they're making
2) It's too hard to figure out what is causing any imbalance and to fix it when there are too many variables
Top level players make fewer mistakes (unforced errors) and that generally reduces the randomness of the outcome of the games (fewer variables).
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Tallying map score over the last four premier tournaments.
At MSI (Korean vs Korean matches only):
ZvT 5-0 (Rogue vs Flash/Rogue vs Yoda)
ZvP 4-3 (Solar vs Parting)
At Blizzcon:
ZvT 11-12
ZvP 6-2
At Hot6 Qualifiers:
ZvT 34-35
ZvP 27-27
At HSC V (Korean vs Korean matches in ro16+ only):
ZvT 6-6
ZvP 6-11
Result:
ZvT 56-53 (51.3%)
ZvP 43-43 (50%)
The numbers alone, over the last four premier tournaments, favor Zerg in ZvT but not by a meaningful margin.
On November 18 2014 03:26 DinoMight wrote:Now when you look at all the best Terrans for example, and find that they all have ridiculously high TvZ rates compared to the top Zergs' ZvT rates it means either: 1) People who chose Terran inherantly are more skilled (which we don't believe to be true) or 2) Top Terrans do better against top Zergs because of something neither can control (such as game balance).
This is how I justify my view that TvZ is currently imbalaned favoring Terran. Even though it's possible for Zergs to beat Terrans, and it happens often, it's mostly meaningless unless you look at the top few players of each race. It's possible to look at the top 100 players and get a near 50% win rate in TvZ. But there's a reason we ignore Bronze league when discussing game balance their wins and losses have nothing to do with balance but more with their own ability to correctly press the buttons on the keyboard.
Looking at top Zerg players from the last four tournaments, Life has a 9-2 record in ZvT, soO has 1-3, Rogue has 7-0, Solar has 5-3, Jaedong has 4-3, Losira has 3-2, Dark has 2-1, Hyun has 2-6, DRG is 4-2, and Soulkey has 6-5. The only Zerg you could conceivably add to this top 10 list is TRUE, but he didn't play any Terrans in the last two months so there are no games on record.
For top 10 Zergs this gives us a ZvT rate of 43-25 or 63% over the last 4 premier tournaments. You'd probably say "but those Zergs' results are inflated from beating up on shitty players." Looking at only top 10-ish Terrans from the last 4 premier tournaments in TvZ:
Flash vs Losira 2-0
Flash vs Rogue 0-2
Innovation vs Hyun 3-1
Taeja vs soO 3-2
Taeja vs Life 2-3
Taeja vs Hyun 3-1
MMA vs Life 1-4
TY vs Losira 0-3
TY vs Solar 2-1
TY vs Hydra 0-2
TY vs Dark 3-2
TY vs Rogue 0-2
Bomber vs Jaedong 3-2
Gumiho vs Soulkey 1-2 (Gumiho's been looking very strong lately, he seems to be the Terran Losira parallel)
That gives us a record of 24-28 favoring Zerg. I don't have to explain what that says about the idea that top Terrans are invincible in TvZ.
I see nothing in your post that is in any way supported by what's been going on at tournaments lately. If you want to talk about the content of games, sure, Terrans absolutely have more variety in their builds than they used to, and that may be forcing Zergs to play more all-ins which are boring to watch or are coin-flippy or something of that nature. But is any of this translating to Terran domination? No, by every metric I can think of, whether we look at full tournament results or just top vs top, Zerg are winning in TvZ. Not by a wide enough margin to indicate any imbalance.
On November 18 2014 04:25 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:
To be frank, I don't understand the argument that balance only matters for the top10 players or so.
What makes it so that balance isn't a factor in Marinekings play, but is in Innovations play? If Innovation is incapable of performing something that would be necessary to have a fair chance in a matchup, why would someone weaker not be influenced by that?
Of course, you could say Marineking could still just improve to Innovation's level and beat the players that Innovation beats, but MK currently can't. But removing the imbalance that is disfavoring Terran in that example might do the trick as well. So MK is influenced by the imbalance. He is not influenced in a sense that he would be a champion without it. But he is influenced in the sense that he would be placing better and earning more than he currently does, suffering from the imbalance.
I agree that blizzard can't really force balance on players that have trouble injecting or just following basic BOs and strategies. But I think the least amount of balance we should be keeping is that the whole standing pro-scene has overall somewhat balanced conditions. His decision making is so bad that it's hard to know what exactly needs to be tweaked. You could argue that buildings' flying speed should get a buff based on how many times his stupid shit fails and he has to fly back to his base...
Haha, that's hard to argue with.
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On November 18 2014 06:03 pure.Wasted wrote:Tallying map score over the last four premier tournaments. At MSI (Korean vs Korean matches only): ZvT 5-0 (Rogue vs Flash/Rogue vs Yoda) ZvP 4-3 (Solar vs Parting) At Blizzcon: ZvT 11-12 ZvP 6-2 At Hot6 Qualifiers: ZvT 34-35 ZvP 27-27 At HSC V (Korean vs Korean matches in ro16+ only): ZvT 6-6 ZvP 6-11 Result:ZvT 56-53 (51.3%)
ZvP 43-43 (50%)The numbers alone, over the last four premier tournaments, favor Zerg in ZvT but not by a meaningful margin. Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 03:26 DinoMight wrote:Now when you look at all the best Terrans for example, and find that they all have ridiculously high TvZ rates compared to the top Zergs' ZvT rates it means either: 1) People who chose Terran inherantly are more skilled (which we don't believe to be true) or 2) Top Terrans do better against top Zergs because of something neither can control (such as game balance).
This is how I justify my view that TvZ is currently imbalaned favoring Terran. Even though it's possible for Zergs to beat Terrans, and it happens often, it's mostly meaningless unless you look at the top few players of each race. It's possible to look at the top 100 players and get a near 50% win rate in TvZ. But there's a reason we ignore Bronze league when discussing game balance their wins and losses have nothing to do with balance but more with their own ability to correctly press the buttons on the keyboard. Looking at top Zerg players from the last four tournaments, Life has a 9-2 record in ZvT, soO has 1-3, Rogue has 7-0, Solar has 5-3, Jaedong has 4-3, Losira has 3-2, Dark has 2-1, Hyun has 2-6, DRG is 4-2, and Soulkey has 6-5. The only Zerg you could conceivably add to this top 10 list is TRUE, but he didn't play any Terrans in the last two months so there are no games on record. For top 10 Zergs this gives us a ZvT rate of 43-25 or 63% over the last 4 premier tournaments. You'd probably say "but those Zergs' results are inflated from beating up on shitty players." Looking at only top 10-ish Terrans from the last 4 premier tournaments in TvZ: Flash vs Losira 2-0 Flash vs Rogue 0-2 Innovation vs Hyun 3-1 Taeja vs soO 3-2 Taeja vs Life 2-3 Taeja vs Hyun 3-1 MMA vs Life 1-4 TY vs Losira 0-3 TY vs Solar 2-1 TY vs Hydra 0-2 TY vs Dark 3-2 TY vs Rogue 0-2 Bomber vs Jaedong 3-2 Gumiho vs Soulkey 1-2 (Gumiho's been looking very strong lately, he seems to be the Terran Losira parallel) That gives us a record of 24-28 favoring Zerg. I don't have to explain what that says about the idea that top Terrans are invincible in TvZ. I see nothing in your post that is in any way supported by what's been going on at tournaments lately. If you want to talk about the content of games, sure, Terrans absolutely have more variety in their builds than they used to, and that may be forcing Zergs to play more all-ins which are boring to watch or are coin-flippy or something of that nature. But is any of this translating to Terran domination? No, by every metric I can think of, whether we look at full tournament results or just top vs top, Zerg are winning in TvZ. Not by a wide enough margin to indicate any imbalance. Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 04:25 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:
To be frank, I don't understand the argument that balance only matters for the top10 players or so.
What makes it so that balance isn't a factor in Marinekings play, but is in Innovations play? If Innovation is incapable of performing something that would be necessary to have a fair chance in a matchup, why would someone weaker not be influenced by that?
Of course, you could say Marineking could still just improve to Innovation's level and beat the players that Innovation beats, but MK currently can't. But removing the imbalance that is disfavoring Terran in that example might do the trick as well. So MK is influenced by the imbalance. He is not influenced in a sense that he would be a champion without it. But he is influenced in the sense that he would be placing better and earning more than he currently does, suffering from the imbalance.
I agree that blizzard can't really force balance on players that have trouble injecting or just following basic BOs and strategies. But I think the least amount of balance we should be keeping is that the whole standing pro-scene has overall somewhat balanced conditions. His decision making is so bad that it's hard to know what exactly needs to be tweaked. You could argue that buildings' flying speed should get a buff based on how many times his stupid shit fails and he has to fly back to his base... Haha, that's hard to argue with.
Well okay. A couple of things...
So I posted some numbers a few pages back. Basically I looked at all TvZ since the patch (not just the last few where Life and Rogue went around stomping people) between top Zergs and top Terrans. So not the winrate of top Zergs vs. Terrans and then top Terrans vs. Zergs but rather, their record of playing against each other.
When you look at the top 10 Zergs and the top 10 Terrans (you come up with whatever list you think is fair based on performance/tournament finishes, etc.) going head to head against each other in games played since the patch, the series won by Terran vastly outnumber those won by Zergs.
When I posted this I was told that I was "cherry picking" results.. but I think that's missing the point.
My entire argument IS that balance only shows at the top top tier of the game. So in order to investigate balance you can't be looking elsewhere.
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Dinomight, you're neglecting trends. Did TvZ swing wildly in after the patch? Sure. But we expected it to. (for reasons I will not repeat for the thousandth time), but the trend dissipated, and the current stable state is rather even between TvZ. Which is nice, but completely irrelevant as LotV is on our doorsteps and current balance doesn't matter at all. If we're debating whether warp gate should be nerfed, it really doesn't matter whether WM do bonus damage to shields...
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On November 18 2014 06:16 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 06:03 pure.Wasted wrote:Tallying map score over the last four premier tournaments. At MSI (Korean vs Korean matches only): ZvT 5-0 (Rogue vs Flash/Rogue vs Yoda) ZvP 4-3 (Solar vs Parting) At Blizzcon: ZvT 11-12 ZvP 6-2 At Hot6 Qualifiers: ZvT 34-35 ZvP 27-27 At HSC V (Korean vs Korean matches in ro16+ only): ZvT 6-6 ZvP 6-11 Result:ZvT 56-53 (51.3%)
ZvP 43-43 (50%)The numbers alone, over the last four premier tournaments, favor Zerg in ZvT but not by a meaningful margin. On November 18 2014 03:26 DinoMight wrote:Now when you look at all the best Terrans for example, and find that they all have ridiculously high TvZ rates compared to the top Zergs' ZvT rates it means either: 1) People who chose Terran inherantly are more skilled (which we don't believe to be true) or 2) Top Terrans do better against top Zergs because of something neither can control (such as game balance).
This is how I justify my view that TvZ is currently imbalaned favoring Terran. Even though it's possible for Zergs to beat Terrans, and it happens often, it's mostly meaningless unless you look at the top few players of each race. It's possible to look at the top 100 players and get a near 50% win rate in TvZ. But there's a reason we ignore Bronze league when discussing game balance their wins and losses have nothing to do with balance but more with their own ability to correctly press the buttons on the keyboard. Looking at top Zerg players from the last four tournaments, Life has a 9-2 record in ZvT, soO has 1-3, Rogue has 7-0, Solar has 5-3, Jaedong has 4-3, Losira has 3-2, Dark has 2-1, Hyun has 2-6, DRG is 4-2, and Soulkey has 6-5. The only Zerg you could conceivably add to this top 10 list is TRUE, but he didn't play any Terrans in the last two months so there are no games on record. For top 10 Zergs this gives us a ZvT rate of 43-25 or 63% over the last 4 premier tournaments. You'd probably say "but those Zergs' results are inflated from beating up on shitty players." Looking at only top 10-ish Terrans from the last 4 premier tournaments in TvZ: Flash vs Losira 2-0 Flash vs Rogue 0-2 Innovation vs Hyun 3-1 Taeja vs soO 3-2 Taeja vs Life 2-3 Taeja vs Hyun 3-1 MMA vs Life 1-4 TY vs Losira 0-3 TY vs Solar 2-1 TY vs Hydra 0-2 TY vs Dark 3-2 TY vs Rogue 0-2 Bomber vs Jaedong 3-2 Gumiho vs Soulkey 1-2 (Gumiho's been looking very strong lately, he seems to be the Terran Losira parallel) That gives us a record of 24-28 favoring Zerg. I don't have to explain what that says about the idea that top Terrans are invincible in TvZ. I see nothing in your post that is in any way supported by what's been going on at tournaments lately. If you want to talk about the content of games, sure, Terrans absolutely have more variety in their builds than they used to, and that may be forcing Zergs to play more all-ins which are boring to watch or are coin-flippy or something of that nature. But is any of this translating to Terran domination? No, by every metric I can think of, whether we look at full tournament results or just top vs top, Zerg are winning in TvZ. Not by a wide enough margin to indicate any imbalance. On November 18 2014 04:25 DinoMight wrote:On November 18 2014 03:57 Big J wrote:
To be frank, I don't understand the argument that balance only matters for the top10 players or so.
What makes it so that balance isn't a factor in Marinekings play, but is in Innovations play? If Innovation is incapable of performing something that would be necessary to have a fair chance in a matchup, why would someone weaker not be influenced by that?
Of course, you could say Marineking could still just improve to Innovation's level and beat the players that Innovation beats, but MK currently can't. But removing the imbalance that is disfavoring Terran in that example might do the trick as well. So MK is influenced by the imbalance. He is not influenced in a sense that he would be a champion without it. But he is influenced in the sense that he would be placing better and earning more than he currently does, suffering from the imbalance.
I agree that blizzard can't really force balance on players that have trouble injecting or just following basic BOs and strategies. But I think the least amount of balance we should be keeping is that the whole standing pro-scene has overall somewhat balanced conditions. His decision making is so bad that it's hard to know what exactly needs to be tweaked. You could argue that buildings' flying speed should get a buff based on how many times his stupid shit fails and he has to fly back to his base... Haha, that's hard to argue with. Well okay. A couple of things... So I posted some numbers a few pages back. Basically I looked at all TvZ since the patch (not just the last few where Life and Rogue went around stomping people) between top Zergs and top Terrans. So not the winrate of top Zergs vs. Terrans and then top Terrans vs. Zergs but rather, their record of playing against each other. When you look at the top 10 Zergs and the top 10 Terrans (you come up with whatever list you think is fair based on performance/tournament finishes, etc.) going head to head against each other in games played since the patch, the series won by Terran vastly outnumber those won by Zergs. When I posted this I was told that I was "cherry picking" results.. but I think that's missing the point. My entire argument IS that balance only shows at the top top tier of the game. So in order to investigate balance you can't be looking elsewhere.
You want to focus on the results immediately following a huge patch? Instead of the results from a month and a half later, after players have had time to adjust to said huge patch?
One month ago the conversation went "let's wait until Code S s1 and see how that goes." That's still the most reasonable course of action. The only thing that's changed since then is that the trend is looking very, very positive for Zerg players. That's not irreversible. Things could still get worse by the time s1 rolls around next year. But the mere possibility that the last four premier tournaments have all been flukes isn't enough to be making the claims you're making, that top Zergs are severely disadvantaged against top Terrans, which just has not been true over the last month. The top Zergs have been winning.
Again, if you want to talk about the content of games, that's a good discussion to have. Terrans have it all the time when games come down to SCVs vs Colossus. But then my question to you would be what precise concerns you have about the TvZ meta, what you're basing that on, and what sort of changes you think could help.
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