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On November 10 2014 06:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 01:09 Doublemint wrote:On November 10 2014 00:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 09 2014 20:29 Doublemint wrote:On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2014 08:39 sibs wrote:On November 08 2014 08:36 Dwayn wrote:
I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed. Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were: "This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran." Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 So bitter. Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn  Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. Which is why I used the same argument when Maru was the only one winning things earlier this year. So are you admitting to being a hypocrite or to being wrong now?
It's important to clarify.
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On November 10 2014 00:37 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote:On November 09 2014 21:04 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 20:32 Charoisaur wrote:
People complain about 2 rax and in the meantime life wins blizzcon by banelingbusting nearly every game.
If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust?
SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? TaeJa played:standardproxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatchgreedy 3base Life played:standard proxy hatch cheesestandard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failedproxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bustMMA played:2base allin 2base allin 2base allin2base allin standard Life played:standardbaneling buststandard standardbaneling bust I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins But... nobody here complained about 2rax T_T If something, zergs are complaining about standard play, and gladly agree that zerg got those strong all ins to avoid a too standard game. edit, about recent discussion: Life finds a way, low muta count and some strong ling bane timings/busts seens to be a strong way to play the matchup. soO is going for this type of composition but not with Life's mentality, cutting drones and commiting hard.
wait, life actually plays a quite high muta count when he plays mutas.
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On November 10 2014 06:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 00:37 Superbanana wrote:On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote:On November 09 2014 21:04 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 20:32 Charoisaur wrote:
People complain about 2 rax and in the meantime life wins blizzcon by banelingbusting nearly every game.
If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust?
SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? TaeJa played:standardproxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatchgreedy 3base Life played:standard proxy hatch cheesestandard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failedproxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bustMMA played:2base allin 2base allin 2base allin2base allin standard Life played:standardbaneling buststandard standardbaneling bust I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins But... nobody here complained about 2rax T_T If something, zergs are complaining about standard play, and gladly agree that zerg got those strong all ins to avoid a too standard game. edit, about recent discussion: Life finds a way, low muta count and some strong ling bane timings/busts seens to be a strong way to play the matchup. soO is going for this type of composition but not with Life's mentality, cutting drones and commiting hard. wait, life actually plays a quite high muta count when he plays mutas.
Not really, he usually doesn't go above 30. He never reaches Scarlett levels of muta.
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On November 10 2014 06:29 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:26 Big J wrote:On November 10 2014 00:37 Superbanana wrote:On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote:On November 09 2014 21:04 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 20:32 Charoisaur wrote:
People complain about 2 rax and in the meantime life wins blizzcon by banelingbusting nearly every game.
If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust?
SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? TaeJa played:standardproxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatchgreedy 3base Life played:standard proxy hatch cheesestandard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failedproxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bustMMA played:2base allin 2base allin 2base allin2base allin standard Life played:standardbaneling buststandard standardbaneling bust I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins But... nobody here complained about 2rax T_T If something, zergs are complaining about standard play, and gladly agree that zerg got those strong all ins to avoid a too standard game. edit, about recent discussion: Life finds a way, low muta count and some strong ling bane timings/busts seens to be a strong way to play the matchup. soO is going for this type of composition but not with Life's mentality, cutting drones and commiting hard. wait, life actually plays a quite high muta count when he plays mutas. Not really, he usually doesn't go above 30. He never reaches Scarlett levels of muta. 30 is a metric fuckton of mutas, with 4 base saturation for example (80 drones) that's half your army supply.
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On November 10 2014 06:29 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:26 Big J wrote:On November 10 2014 00:37 Superbanana wrote:On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote:On November 09 2014 21:04 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 20:32 Charoisaur wrote:
People complain about 2 rax and in the meantime life wins blizzcon by banelingbusting nearly every game.
If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust?
SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? TaeJa played:standardproxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatchgreedy 3base Life played:standard proxy hatch cheesestandard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failedproxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bustMMA played:2base allin 2base allin 2base allin2base allin standard Life played:standardbaneling buststandard standardbaneling bust I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins But... nobody here complained about 2rax T_T If something, zergs are complaining about standard play, and gladly agree that zerg got those strong all ins to avoid a too standard game. edit, about recent discussion: Life finds a way, low muta count and some strong ling bane timings/busts seens to be a strong way to play the matchup. soO is going for this type of composition but not with Life's mentality, cutting drones and commiting hard. wait, life actually plays a quite high muta count when he plays mutas. Not really, he usually doesn't go above 30. He never reaches Scarlett levels of muta.
He goes into the 20s, which is quite a lot. Since you compared him to soO at least, since soO usually seems to stay between 10-15, sometimes even less. Life always rebuilds mutalisks, often even prioritizes them over banelings. soO rebuilds banelings and techs to ultralisks/infestors, often not even rebuilding his mutas when he drops low for quite some time.
you're right it's not pre-patch super muta flock high, but it is actually quite high in comparision with some other successful Zergs such as soO, Solar, TRUE. And also he tends to bust a lot, so then he doesn't go mutas at all ^^
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Life won almost all those games with pure Ling/Bane.
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On November 10 2014 09:01 DinoMight wrote:
Ling won almost all those games with pure Ling/Bane.
Which is the nature of defending 2base allins and doing busts
The interesting one was that one game that actually turned out to be a long macro game, vs TaeJa g2. Everything else was just a compendium of allinish attacks or players being too greedy. 
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On November 10 2014 09:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:01 DinoMight wrote:
Ling won almost all those games with pure Ling/Bane. Which is the nature of defending 2base allins and doing busts The interesting one was that one game that actually turned out to be a long macro game, vs TaeJa g2. Everything else was just a compendium of allinish attacks or players being too greedy.
Yeah I was really sad that MMA didn't try to play any macro games. He's so good at multitasking and didn't even give himself a chance to beat Life... :/
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On November 10 2014 06:19 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 10 2014 01:09 Doublemint wrote:On November 10 2014 00:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 09 2014 20:29 Doublemint wrote:On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2014 08:39 sibs wrote:On November 08 2014 08:36 Dwayn wrote:
I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed. Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were: "This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran." Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 So bitter. Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. Which is why I used the same argument when Maru was the only one winning things earlier this year. So are you admitting to being a hypocrite or to being wrong now? It's important to clarify.
To neither.
I don't believe Zerg UP because top zergs still do well.
I don't believe Terran was UP earlier this year because top terrans were still doing well.
I believe people freak out over the results of just a few months and they always do so when it is their race going on a downshift. I don't believe in balance patches of any kind unless its impossible for even top players to do well.
Life and Soo have proven that Zerg was not doing as badly as people on TL keep saying they are.
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On November 10 2014 12:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 09:25 Big J wrote:On November 10 2014 09:01 DinoMight wrote:
Ling won almost all those games with pure Ling/Bane. Which is the nature of defending 2base allins and doing busts The interesting one was that one game that actually turned out to be a long macro game, vs TaeJa g2. Everything else was just a compendium of allinish attacks or players being too greedy. Yeah I was really sad that MMA didn't try to play any macro games. He's so good at multitasking and didn't even give himself a chance to beat Life... :/
Life just beat Taeja while taeja tried going for macro games. MMA knows Taeja is better at macro games than he is (specifically at reaching macro-end games) so he most likely chickened out and tried to end things quick.
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On November 10 2014 12:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:19 HellHound wrote:On November 10 2014 06:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 10 2014 01:09 Doublemint wrote:On November 10 2014 00:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 09 2014 20:29 Doublemint wrote:On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2014 08:39 sibs wrote:On November 08 2014 08:36 Dwayn wrote:
I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed. Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were: "This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran." Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 So bitter. Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. Which is why I used the same argument when Maru was the only one winning things earlier this year. So are you admitting to being a hypocrite or to being wrong now? It's important to clarify. To neither. I don't believe Zerg UP because top zergs still do well. I don't believe Terran was UP earlier this year because top terrans were still doing well. I believe people freak out over the results of just a few months and they always do so when it is their race going on a downshift. I don't believe in balance patches of any kind unless its impossible for even top players to do well. Life and Soo have proven that Zerg was not doing as badly as people on TL keep saying they are.
Eh, 1-2 top players don't represent the whole Zerg race. Nobody is saying "it's impossible for Zerg to win." What people are saying is "it's harder for Zerg to win." That's a different statement because it implies that if you're skilled enough you can still beat people despite the imbalance.
When Protoss was winning everything earlier this year there were still a couple of the same Terrans turning up and going well at events but on the whole Protoss was dominating.
I agree that too many patches can mess things up though. Somtimes a race does poorly and it just needs some time to figure out what it's doing wrong.
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On November 10 2014 06:51 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:29 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On November 10 2014 06:26 Big J wrote:On November 10 2014 00:37 Superbanana wrote:On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote:On November 09 2014 21:04 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 20:32 Charoisaur wrote:
People complain about 2 rax and in the meantime life wins blizzcon by banelingbusting nearly every game.
If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust?
SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? TaeJa played:standardproxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatchgreedy 3base Life played:standard proxy hatch cheesestandard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failedproxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bustMMA played:2base allin 2base allin 2base allin2base allin standard Life played:standardbaneling buststandard standardbaneling bust I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins But... nobody here complained about 2rax T_T If something, zergs are complaining about standard play, and gladly agree that zerg got those strong all ins to avoid a too standard game. edit, about recent discussion: Life finds a way, low muta count and some strong ling bane timings/busts seens to be a strong way to play the matchup. soO is going for this type of composition but not with Life's mentality, cutting drones and commiting hard. wait, life actually plays a quite high muta count when he plays mutas. Not really, he usually doesn't go above 30. He never reaches Scarlett levels of muta. He goes into the 20s, which is quite a lot. Since you compared him to soO at least, since soO usually seems to stay between 10-15, sometimes even less. Life always rebuilds mutalisks, often even prioritizes them over banelings. soO rebuilds banelings and techs to ultralisks/infestors, often not even rebuilding his mutas when he drops low for quite some time. you're right it's not pre-patch super muta flock high, but it is actually quite high in comparision with some other successful Zergs such as soO, Solar, TRUE. And also he tends to bust a lot, so then he doesn't go mutas at all ^^
Wait, i made the comment about soO and Life, the reply was other guy 
Most players that favoured mass muta (aka Scarlett, but a ton of zergs did it) are trying to play other styles now. 20 mutas is a high count for the current meta, indeed.
Comparing soO and Life didn't made a lot of sense at all, but soO is always in my head recently.
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On November 10 2014 19:43 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:51 Big J wrote:On November 10 2014 06:29 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On November 10 2014 06:26 Big J wrote:On November 10 2014 00:37 Superbanana wrote:On November 09 2014 21:39 Charoisaur wrote:On November 09 2014 21:04 Big J wrote:On November 09 2014 20:32 Charoisaur wrote:
People complain about 2 rax and in the meantime life wins blizzcon by banelingbusting nearly every game.
If 2 rax is op, what is banelingbust?
SUPERIMBABROKENDKNRFNRF? TaeJa played:standardproxy reaper cheese 2base tank/drop standard as far as possible given the proxy hatchgreedy 3base Life played:standard proxy hatch cheesestandard with a counterbust after TaeJas agression failedproxy hatch cheese standard until he scouted the greedy opening; then 3base 1-1 speedbaneling bustMMA played:2base allin 2base allin 2base allin2base allin standard Life played:standardbaneling buststandard standardbaneling bust I wasn't balance whining. Just mentioning that zergs have no reason to complain about 2 rax when they have equally strong allins But... nobody here complained about 2rax T_T If something, zergs are complaining about standard play, and gladly agree that zerg got those strong all ins to avoid a too standard game. edit, about recent discussion: Life finds a way, low muta count and some strong ling bane timings/busts seens to be a strong way to play the matchup. soO is going for this type of composition but not with Life's mentality, cutting drones and commiting hard. wait, life actually plays a quite high muta count when he plays mutas. Not really, he usually doesn't go above 30. He never reaches Scarlett levels of muta. He goes into the 20s, which is quite a lot. Since you compared him to soO at least, since soO usually seems to stay between 10-15, sometimes even less. Life always rebuilds mutalisks, often even prioritizes them over banelings. soO rebuilds banelings and techs to ultralisks/infestors, often not even rebuilding his mutas when he drops low for quite some time. you're right it's not pre-patch super muta flock high, but it is actually quite high in comparision with some other successful Zergs such as soO, Solar, TRUE. And also he tends to bust a lot, so then he doesn't go mutas at all ^^ Wait, i made the comment about soO and Life, the reply was other guy Most players that favoured mass muta (aka Scarlett, but a ton of zergs did it) are trying to play other styles now. 20 mutas is a high count for the current meta, indeed. Comparing soO and Life didn't made a lot of sense at all, but soO is always in my head recently.
yeah, TLO lately talked with PiG on his stream about what lategame style they play vs T. And they agreed that the 2-2 muta/ling/bling isn't good anymore.
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On November 10 2014 12:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:19 HellHound wrote:On November 10 2014 06:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 10 2014 01:09 Doublemint wrote:On November 10 2014 00:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 09 2014 20:29 Doublemint wrote:On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2014 08:39 sibs wrote:On November 08 2014 08:36 Dwayn wrote:
I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed. Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were: "This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran." Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 So bitter. Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. Which is why I used the same argument when Maru was the only one winning things earlier this year. So are you admitting to being a hypocrite or to being wrong now? It's important to clarify. To neither. I don't believe Zerg UP because top zergs still do well. I don't believe Terran was UP earlier this year because top terrans were still doing well.
Seems a bit strange to post around here so much if you actually don't believe in the possibility of balance issues?
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On November 10 2014 12:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 12:27 DinoMight wrote:On November 10 2014 09:25 Big J wrote:On November 10 2014 09:01 DinoMight wrote:
Ling won almost all those games with pure Ling/Bane. Which is the nature of defending 2base allins and doing busts The interesting one was that one game that actually turned out to be a long macro game, vs TaeJa g2. Everything else was just a compendium of allinish attacks or players being too greedy. Yeah I was really sad that MMA didn't try to play any macro games. He's so good at multitasking and didn't even give himself a chance to beat Life... :/ Life just beat Taeja while taeja tried going for macro games. MMA knows Taeja is better at macro games than he is (specifically at reaching macro-end games) so he most likely chickened out and tried to end things quick.
I think MMA isn't really confident in his late game in general. He pulled the boys almost every game against Classic, didn't he?
Not that interesting to watch of course, but MMA achieved more than most people expected him to, so who could blame him?
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tbh i think the most frustrating thing about ZvT atm isnt so much its unwinable but thats its very difficult to end the game if terran doesnt want it to
3/3 muta/ling bane can definatley hold its own on creep
but off of creep or trying to push into bases against pre-laid mines? not gona happen
makes it a bit annoying to have suhc a mobile army composition but with no ability to push unless the terran messes up ( ie steps onto creep where you can take a good fight
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On November 10 2014 12:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:19 HellHound wrote:On November 10 2014 06:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 10 2014 01:09 Doublemint wrote:On November 10 2014 00:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 09 2014 20:29 Doublemint wrote:On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2014 08:39 sibs wrote:On November 08 2014 08:36 Dwayn wrote:
I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed. Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were: "This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran." Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 So bitter. Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. Which is why I used the same argument when Maru was the only one winning things earlier this year. So are you admitting to being a hypocrite or to being wrong now? It's important to clarify. To neither. I don't believe Zerg UP because top zergs still do well. I don't believe Terran was UP earlier this year because top terrans were still doing well. I believe people freak out over the results of just a few months and they always do so when it is their race going on a downshift. I don't believe in balance patches of any kind unless its impossible for even top players to do well. Life and Soo have proven that Zerg was not doing as badly as people on TL keep saying they are. Haha my bad
I thought you meant his argument (rather then yours) :D that's what happens when you read TL in the middle of the night trying to put yourself to sleep I guess.
Life just beat Taeja while taeja tried going for macro games. MMA knows Taeja is better at macro games than he is (specifically at reaching macro-end games) so he most likely chickened out and tried to end things quick.
Shows how scary Life is.
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On November 10 2014 20:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 12:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 10 2014 06:19 HellHound wrote:On November 10 2014 06:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 10 2014 01:09 Doublemint wrote:On November 10 2014 00:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 09 2014 20:29 Doublemint wrote:On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2014 08:39 sibs wrote:On November 08 2014 08:36 Dwayn wrote:
I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed. Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were: "This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran." Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 So bitter. Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. Which is why I used the same argument when Maru was the only one winning things earlier this year. So are you admitting to being a hypocrite or to being wrong now? It's important to clarify. To neither. I don't believe Zerg UP because top zergs still do well. I don't believe Terran was UP earlier this year because top terrans were still doing well. Seems a bit strange to post around here so much if you actually don't believe in the possibility of balance issues?
Maybe he watched the Rob Pardo interview that was posted the other day where Rob Pardo says he was happy with the balance as long as top players from each race had a chance to win.
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In case anyone's curious, the first three Hot6ix groups results are in.
In games: 21:20 for Terran. In series: 7:14 for Zerg.
Obviously we're missing the most important factor, the context of what those games actually looked like. But the numbers alone aren't troubling, at the very least.
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On November 11 2014 21:39 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On November 10 2014 12:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 10 2014 06:19 HellHound wrote:On November 10 2014 06:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 10 2014 01:09 Doublemint wrote:On November 10 2014 00:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 09 2014 20:29 Doublemint wrote:On November 09 2014 15:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 08 2014 08:39 sibs wrote:
[quote]
Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were:
"This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran." Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4 So bitter. Not bitter, just pointing out that Zerg got to the last 4 GSL finals, was in all but 2(?) GSL finals this year, and has won The WCS finals. It's with a race record like this that people are crying that Zerg is weak in the meta. And in all those GSL finals there was one and the same Zerg. I wonder where I heard that line of reasoning for the first time... how the times change when the tables turn Life playing out of his mind and beating ALL the best players had nothing to do with anything? Heck I hoped a toss would take it and Life impressed me to no end. Which is why I used the same argument when Maru was the only one winning things earlier this year. So are you admitting to being a hypocrite or to being wrong now? It's important to clarify. To neither. I don't believe Zerg UP because top zergs still do well. I don't believe Terran was UP earlier this year because top terrans were still doing well. Seems a bit strange to post around here so much if you actually don't believe in the possibility of balance issues? Maybe he watched the Rob Pardo interview that was posted the other day where Rob Pardo says he was happy with the balance as long as top players from each race had a chance to win.
Its just a philosophical stance I have. I still enjoy the discussion of balancing, but merely pointing out at either overall winrates or winrates of certain subgroups of people does not convince me that there is a problem because it could literally just be another "Savior" moment where a race *can* beat everyone, its just really hard for them to do so and I don't want to balance the game just because lower level players are not as good as higher level players.
Heck, when Savior was winning everything the terrans around him had 70%-80% TvZ winrates and were making their mark as the best players of BW. And without any balance patches zerg was able to adapt.
Too many players (pro and otherwise) have gotten too comfortable with the nerf-bat as an answer to problems. In BW metas would sometimes go more than a year before finally adapting. And then a few years more before adapting again. Over and over when you remove the possibility of patch-fixes players find a way.
That doesn't mean balance discussions don't happen. (I still believe Ultralisks in BW should have 3 starting armor that goes up to 5 with plating and up to 8 with +3, for example). Its just that it turns out that (in BW) the players would always prove that the game did not need balancing, it needed more determination and innovation.
But in the end its a philosophical stance. When I say "Balance to the top players" I literally mean the top 2-3 players. It is the dance between those top 9-10 players of all three races over a period of years that means something to me. Not the results of just a few months of tournaments on just 1 of the matchups.
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