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On August 14 2011 15:05 SugarBear wrote:
So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player?
Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
Define 'outperform' in terms of listing vVv's LAN accomplishments, so I know exactly which LANs to attend in order to reach said magical expectation. I'll make it easier, list a major online tournament win that isn't a team league.
In the end I honestly don't care, but I think this recruitment model has done good things for vVv by bringing you tons of attention (albeit almost 100% negative) when you had nothing else to promote. Brilliant job in PR, but the basic structuring of the proposed recruitment model is so flawed it's hard to take it seriously at all. You might as well just ask for each potential member to pay monthly dues to have the privilege of wearing the vVv tag and hang out with Time and Alej all day (which is so tempting I might just do it).
This.. is gold.. and i wonder why this post hasnt been closed already because seriously, its only people complaining about how poor/flawed/confusing/arrogant is the OP. Oh and i think i outperform vVv members since i won triple strike cup twice.. during the beta. LOL
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On August 14 2011 12:51 duk3 wrote:
You guys are mistaken if you think TL is a terrible community, if anyone in this thread was trolling they would have been warned/banned.
Basically, what nearly everyone in this thread has been saying is that your supposed requirements regarding lans are unreasonable, and this is reflected in your lack of applicants.
The response to this has been telling us that we are stupid, not the best PR there.
Ironically, I think the only guy who trolled vVv in this thead was him:
On August 14 2011 06:11 OmniscientSC2 wrote:
I'm going to next two MLGs. put me in coach!~
Good luck to all applicants!
but I could be mistaken of course. ;P
Also, SugarBear and Sweep... if you feel that condescension is an adequate response to criticism, maybe you should not be doing PR work.
+ Show Spoiler +Very interesting thread nonetheless.
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Here are my thoughts
I agree a truly aspiring Pro player should WANT to go to MLGs, but may not be able to AFFORD it.
If someone is able to afford to go to MLGs and can place highly, I am pretty sure there would be other teams interested in picking him up, depending on where they place.
what is vVv offering that other teams are not?
Why can you not use online tournaments as a qualifier, maybe give the top finishers in your/some online tournaments some travel allowance or something.
I can say that if i joined the academy, went to MLG on my own money and placed 30th or something, I would not feel obligated to sign with vVv if i had other options.
Also why join the academy in the first place? (aside from free keyboard) I could go to MLG on my own money and if i placed and still couldnt find a sponsor, then I can come back to vVv and say hey i placed 30th last MLG is that good enough for a sponsor? etc
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This thread is very indicative of how Clan vVv is run as a whole... terribly. The only thing that stands out about your clan is the severe immaturity and rage after losing clan wars and ladder games (and now immaturity in a major public forum as well).
Let me put this another way... a 'vVv' player has never won any major tournament ever, and you're expecting people to jump at the chance to represent you? Great business model there.
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On August 14 2011 15:05 SugarBear wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 14:49 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:41 vVvTime wrote:
I can't say what the academy's plan is, but if you join the academy me, alej, hasuu, murder, titan and ruff will play practice games with you and if you're protoss you can chill with alej and I all day.
That's all I'm going to say in this thread. What i dont understand is their expectations, they expect academy members to outperform the current members to get a place on the team quote from babysteps "The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team..." So an academy member training with you guys is supposed to take what you have taught him, and outperform everyone on the team, to get a shot at being on VVV after covering their own expenses to go to these lans in the first place.... On August 14 2011 14:20 antelope591 wrote:
Seems like a decent opportunity for up and comers to get better practice in a more structured environment. If they left out the whole attending and doing good at big lans thing they would've been ok. Just kinda hilarious to even mention that when none of their players have done jack shit at a major LAN (kinda harsh but yea)...so why would someone who can place highly at a lan even want to join vVv? I don't know what their teams are like in other games but they ain't exactly dignitas or mouz in SC2. On August 14 2011 14:12 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:47 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs. The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team... Wait what? Why "of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the team"?? That doesnt really make sense , especially in a VVV academy setting where the players are up and comers looking to improve. How are they supposed to improve if they are already supposed to be better than the players they are training with at the academy? This seems screwed up, so you have to outperform everyone on the VVV team to even get a spot , even though that shouldnt be too hard considering their results, its ridiculous that they have higher expectations of someone who isnt sponsored / has to pay their own way to lans, then they do of people who are already sponsored on their team. That seems totally backwards. So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player? Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
You gotta be kidding me. Academy members get the boot if they flunk out a monthly qualifier, but legacy A team members get a free ride despite total lack of results? Thats messed up. For someone citing ROI you need to look at the ROI of your current players first.
I loathe to say it, but you're killing esports.
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On August 14 2011 13:41 MileyCyrus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs. Might want to do a bit of research, i was one of those at Anaheim. Im not on the A-team, i went for fun. Might want to do some research on the other people who wore the vVv tag there as well ^_^
I'm curious, who was there with the VVV tag? Like I mentioned in my post, I only got my data from TLPD. I can name probably 50-60 pro SC2 westerners, and I don't know a single one on VVV offhand.
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Wow, so you basicly have to pay for representing VVV? In IB thats called a scam and if I look at VVV's performance, they don't even have the results to back up their arrogance.
Good luck finding people being dumb enough to waste their money promoting you instead of going there on their own and getting a REAL team.
btw: If you talk about ROI, you should maybe try to invest some money.
btw 2: If you invest in m&a, the break even point is next to never at 0, its more like 3 years from starting. So you might wanna take a look at the facts and don't try to bullshit people with something every businessmen will laugh about.
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Hey. I'm playing on a sponsored team myself and I'm not sure if you are serious about what you are writing. Don't get me wrong - its perfectly fine to ask for dedication and set requirements such as the player has to attend to meetings and clanwars even if he does not play.
Its also good that someone should leave a note if he can't attend for some reason and it should and I think will be tolerated if it doesn't happen all the time. On the other hand I really can't believe you are serious about what you write.
I'm not so much into the NA teams, but I still know quiet some players and as far as I know vVv is no top tier team (no offence) and neither of the players have placed highly or even decent in a MAJOR (MLG, IEM, WCG (no WCG yet), DreamHack) tournament.
If you want to search talents and give them a chance to proof themselves its okay, but you can't expect the talents to give all their dedication and time for the chance of not getting picked up. You either have to invest some money into it or change your recruitment system.
Its very costly to travel to major LAN tournaments and a high risk as you can easily drop a game or a series to an inferior player. In my opinion you should - if you want to recruit talents - host a long term (can vary by definition.. ) tournament with lots of players who are interested. The players who win will for example represent vVv at an major LAN event like Assembly, MLG etc. (and you pay the costs for it!)
This way you are giving the player a chance to proof himself in a tournament situation and you might get a lot of info about the player, but I feel like you are asking way too much. You are basically asking for dedication (fine), time (fine) and money TO BE REPRESENTED. No rising / good player would probably have interest in representing a team and have all the costs while not evening being guaranteed to have a deal out of it.
If you were a top tier team (mousesports for example has a talent-program) it would probably a big honor to represent you at a major tournament and also make a name for yourself as you are wearing a really prestigeous clan-tag, but I feel like you want yourself be represented without taking any risk which is not the way to go or attract good players.
Just my 2 cents, its fine if you disagree.
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I would just like to say that almost everything posted in this thread by vVvSweep and Sugarbear has shown that vVv is run VERY unprofessionally. You even have real professionals trying to help you understand this (iCCup.Diamond and mTw|NarutO). This idea that you have that prospective applicants need to provide for you (pay to represent vVv at major events) before you are even willing to discuss a deal is not how business is done. Do us a favor and we might be able to work something out is how the mafia works. After seeing this thread and the way vVv has responded time and time again, (if I were someone looking for an opportunity to play professionally for a team) I wouldn't want to represent vVv. Much less pay to do so.
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I find it astonishing how almost everyone on this thread is on the same page about what vVv is doing wrong yet they continue to try and defend themselves in a very offensive manner. Out of 14 pages there has maybe been under 10 (maybe 5 or so) positive posts. The rest arent even trolls as they claim, rather people giving their oppinion about what they dislike/ what doesnt seem write about this academy program. Instead of dismissing everyone / calling them trolls vVv should have taken this as an opportunity to improve. If they didnt want people being critical they shouldnt have posted it on a forum, where people actually have oppinions they should have just put it on their website.
No talented gamer in their right mind is going to be attracted by this offer (and thats what you guys are looking for right? up and coming talented gamers?) If a player can place well at an event like MLG and has to pay for themselves anyways they may as well just do it without having to wear the vVv tag , and if they place well they will have more prestigious teams willing to pick them up and actually support them.
This is what i really dont understand though, if you become part of the vVv academy you get to train with the members of vVv as far as i understand. Heres the catch though somehow from training with their members you have to exceed their skill and place better than them at major lans to even be considered as a sponsored member of vVv. This i find ludicrous, especially considering the current caliber of VvV players (no offense) they havent placed well in any major lans yet AT ALL. When is the last time you have seen a vVv member in the top 10 of even the top 32 of a major lan event? Do you ever even see them get invited to any of the big invitationals? As far as i can remember you see them in none of those things.
So its kind of ridiculous to require an up and coming vVv academy member to outperform the players that are training him, when those players are having trouble placing anywhere near the top 20 in any major lans. It just doesnt make sense. Thats not usually how it works, teams looking for up and coming talent usually they will scout players placing well in online tournaments then offer to cultivate them within the team and give them an environment where they can excel.
Obviously that usually happens with players who are exceptional, but i would assume that vVv is looking for exceptional players, they just want to do it without any risks.
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First, I want to apologize for this thread. As the president and owner, I should have reviewed the contents more specifically before letting my academy manager post this thread on TL.
I also apologize for my staff calling any of you "trolls." Many of you have legitimate concerns, critiques and you brought up fair questions. I saw the OP and then the edited OP. Neither was very good. My staff responded in a way that clearly shows I did not do my job in training them in the basics of public relations, and for that, I also take responsibility for the failure. I take full responsibility, and ask if we can hit the reset switch on this.
Our top goal with the academy is to develop players. Period. We want a robust process that includes monthly tournaments in the following framework:
1) players constantly evolving.
2) a challenge system such that puts constant development pressure on the player
3) reward players with good gear for playing at a level that has them maintain their position for 90 days
4) a LAN focus with the idea that if they can perform well, we can start to offset costs. (I.e. hotel, etc).
5)We don't want players to come here for a free ride. I think our staff was trying to say that we expect a lot from our sponsored players, and there was way too much emphasis on this.
So, again, please accept my apologies. I ask you all to please tell me what YOU would like to see from an academy. We do this for YOU. We do not do this for PR (and if we did, boy did that backfire, lol).
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On August 15 2011 00:15 LordJerith wrote:
First, I want to apologize for this thread. As the president and owner, I should have reviewed the contents more specifically before letting my academy manager post this thread on TL.
I also apologize for my staff calling any of you "trolls." Many of you have legitimate concerns, critiques and you brought up fair questions. I saw the OP and then the edited OP. Neither was very good. My staff responded in a way that clearly shows I did not do my job in training them in the basics of public relations, and for that, I also take responsibility for the failure. I take full responsibility, and ask if we can hit the reset switch on this.
Our top goal with the academy is to develop players. Period. We want a robust process that includes monthly tournaments in the following framework:
1) players constantly evolving.
2) a challenge system such that puts constant development pressure on the player
3) reward players with good gear for playing at a level that has them maintain their position for 90 days
4) a LAN focus with the idea that if they can perform well, we can start to offset costs. (I.e. hotel, etc).
5)We don't want players to come here for a free ride. I think our staff was trying to say that we expect a lot from our sponsored players, and there was way too much emphasis on this.
So, again, please accept my apologies. I ask you all to please tell me what YOU would like to see from an academy. We do this for YOU. We do not do this for PR (and if we did, boy did that backfire, lol).
I think the main concern is the fact that it is so expensive to go to lans that anyone who is detirmined and can afford to go to Lans wouldn't need to join vvv to do so and would have a chance of getting picked up by other people who may offer them a better package.
I think lots of people were saying if the primary goal is to develop talent then the biggest factor preventing that is the cost of going to Lans and vvv isnt solving that with this program.
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What if we covered the hotel cost for the top 3 academy members? Looking to understand what you think would help.
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Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you were trying to find ways to get people to recognize you and get publicity and you came up with this, a half assed put together "academy" meant to make you guys look good. I think you guys deserve what this thread has turned into.
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that sounds pretty ridiculous since you have pretty much no guarantee that your academy members will perform. i'm not sure why there's even an issue with having a b-team that gets an opportunity to practice with pro players but no sponsorship. i think the major problem that everyone has is that your b-team is supposed to massively outperform your a-team to have a chance at being part of the team proper, but your a-team isn't even good compared to other NA teams. basically your academy members are held to higher standards than the actual pro vVv team with none of the benefits.
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What I would like to see from an academy is
1) reward based on effort, not lan results. The reasoning behind this that your recruit managers have the responsibility to spot talents, and your coaching staff will be responsible to raise this talents, if they have done their job, the players with talents and effort will eventually yield results on lan. and if the players don't get the expected results, the one should take responsibility lies on the managers and coaches.
2)a challenge system that internally ranks your recruits, if a recruit places last they get remove after a week, this way you keep your recruit managers busy. In the same time this will result in competitiveness between recruits and pressure on them to preform internally. The idea is that if you don't get better faster than your peers you will be removed.
So you reward your top internal ranked players with traveling expenses, to lan to see if they yield results, if they don't then blame it on the coaches and your recruit managers. they obviously either failed at assessing the talents or didn't provide a solid coaching curriculum. Because it can't be the player's fault if your player have been playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week and ranked on top of your internal ranking. At that point you look for new coaches and new recruitment managers.
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On August 15 2011 00:47 shinyA wrote:
Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you're just trying to benefit yourselves and get publicity disguised as something for aspiring players which is pretty pathetic and reflects very poorly on vVv as a whole which can obviously be seen in this thread.
Our goal is to develop players. Plain and simple. What do you think we can do to correct the impression moving forward?
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On August 15 2011 00:48 rauk wrote:
that sounds pretty ridiculous since you have pretty much no guarantee that your academy members will perform. i'm not sure why there's even an issue with having a b-team that gets an opportunity to practice with pro players but no sponsorship. i think the major problem that everyone has is that your b-team is supposed to massively outperform your a-team to have a chance at being part of the team proper, but your a-team isn't even good compared to other NA teams. basically your academy members are held to higher standards than the actual pro vVv team with none of the benefits.
That was presented horribly, and by no means are they expected to out perform our sponsored players. So, I want to make that is clear.
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On August 15 2011 00:55 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:47 shinyA wrote:
Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you're just trying to benefit yourselves and get publicity disguised as something for aspiring players which is pretty pathetic and reflects very poorly on vVv as a whole which can obviously be seen in this thread. Our goal is to develop players. Plain and simple. What do you think we can do to correct the impression moving forward?
If your goal is to foster talent then how about you hold a tournament or some sort of ranking system and pay for the top player on that tournament/ranking system to go to an event within reasonable cost.
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On August 15 2011 00:50 rei wrote:
What I would like to see from an academy is
1) reward based on effort, not lan results. The reasoning behind this that your recruit managers have the responsibility to spot talents, and your coaching staff will be responsible to raise this talents, if they have done their job, the players with talents and effort will eventually yield results on lan. and if the players don't get the expected results, the one should take responsibility lies on the managers and coaches.
2)a challenge system that internally ranks your recruits, if a recruit places last they get remove after a week, this way you keep your recruit managers busy. In the same time this will result in competitiveness between recruits and pressure on them to preform internally. The idea is that if you don't get better faster than your peers you will be removed.
So you reward your top internal ranked players with traveling expenses, to lan to see if they yield results, if they don't then blame it on the coaches and your recruit managers. they obviously either failed at assessing the talents or didn't provide a solid coaching curriculum. Because it can't be the player's fault if your player have been playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week and ranked on top of your internal ranking. At that point you look for new coaches and new recruitment managers.
1)How do you quantify effort? Hours logged? Just wanting some clarification on how this would work.
2)Yes, we would have something like that, but monthly not weekly.
3)I do like the idea of holding the managers responsible, and we will use that. Great suggestion.
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EPT
