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![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/forum/uploads/gallery/album_653/gallery_5702_653_39783.png)
About the vVv Academy
The vVv Academy's central focus is the development of good players into great players while following the core values of the orginazation: Entertain, Educate, Dominate. We work closely with other teams to expand on our training atmosphere as well as with our vVv Team.
There will be a lot expected from Academy members, and in return, after a 90 day consecutive stay within the Academy you will become eligible to receive Steelseries equipment when you attend a Major LAN.
vVv Academy Application Process
1. The maximum number of players on the team will be 6.
2. The maximum number of players per race will be 2.
3. You must be in masters or grandmasters league to apply.
4. Read this post on the application process.
5. There will be a tournament held on the first Sunday of every month (date may vary due to holidays or other events). The tournament will be a BO3 double elimination tournament. This tournament will determine who will stay, join, and leave the Academy.
5.1 The first tournament will be held on October 2nd, 2011. Sign up here. (This requires a registration key that you will have to request from me via PM or e-mail at kozlovich.a@gmail.com.)
5.2 The first place finisher of this tournament will receive a $50 prize.
If you have any questions comments or concerns please feel free to ask. Again, we are looking for serious and dedicated players only.
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if im reading this right...you actually dont pay for anyone to go to a LAN but you expect them to go to major LANs with their own money anyway. At least with coL Academy they pay for the winner of their tournament to go to MLG. I dont really see the benefit of this besides the practice and even then ladder is just as good for that.
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You basically need a full time job just to pay for the travel.
Going to MLG 2 months in a row with NASL in between and travel to europe for Dreamhack and IEM.
Sounds fun, but costly.
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As mentioned by the first two posts, you're expecting second tier players to compete in major LANs (out of their own expense lawl) and expect them to perform well? Good luck with that.
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If what TrueAmerican / Kammalleri say are true that u do not pay for the players or help them pay then why would i rep vVv when i could just go myself... ?
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i HOPE you're paying for people to attend LANs because it would be absolutely ridiculous to expect members to attend at their own expense or else they will be removed from the team. I'm sure this isn't the case, however, because that would just be atrocious management.
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If vVv would cover my costs for the LANs then I would apply. I simpy can't afford to go to tons of LANs, even the UK ones at the moment =/
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Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
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This would be intresting if I could afford to auctally go to major lans. But I don't have the money to do so. Sounds nice. But Just a little expensive for me.
Otherwise I would be happy to apply.
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On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
the only problem people are really talking about is the fact they have to pay for their own travel to major events which costs hundreds of dollars per event or they will get kicked off the team.
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On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
I'm sure there are many players interested in personal development, but the requirment to go to lan's is just so expensive.
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On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
To be fair I think they bring up some good points. Traveling cross-country and even across the globe (considering Dreamhack is considered a "Major LAN") is not extremely affordable for a lot of people. As well, at the level that these players play it, one could argue whether the trip would even be beneficial (from a cost-benefit analysis perspective). Hopefully it was just a quick oversight on vVv's part though - I'm sure that if they had the financial support in place there would be a lot of interest from the community.
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On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
You're the on acting rather entitled, offering a vague training program for the cost of hundreds of dollars to the trainee in order for promotion of your tag at major events to no cost for you. It's silly to expect people to want to pay hundreds of dollars to go to EVERY MAJOR LAN that they are most likely going to lose in 2-3 rounds in. You don't even explain your reasoning as to why the expect people to go to these lans.
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There are hardly any weekends in a year when none of those LANs are running.
Dreamhack is 2 events, MLG is 6, IEM is more than 1, NASL is 3+ times a year...
How are you meant to go to NASL? As if anyone in the Academy would actually qualify, which means you'd be going as a spectator but compelled to do so.
So you'd need a job to pay for all the travel, but NO job to be able to travel to all the LANs.
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You need to look at the big picture, you get a free mouse and keyboard! After 90 days though, lmao....
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Let me start by apologizing for the confusion in the post. I have edited the OP to be a little more accurate.
Now I will try and explain a few more things here as far as LAN and support from vVv.
If you do not attend any major LANs as defined in the OP then you are not representing vVv in anything important. When someone is looking for a sponsorship it always seems to be this question of "what will you do for me if i represent you?" If this is your thought process then you have likely never been sponsored by a real organization.
If you cannot attend major LANs (no matter what the reason) then I can settle this by saying the vVv Academy is not for you. If you CAN attend major LANs and you perform well, then there will be support from vVv. vVv-gaming is a very large organization and while strict on what we expect, our rewards are always on par with your performance.
I want you to think about the process here... If a company pays your entire travel expenses (several hundred dollars) to attend a LAN, then you are expected to produce a fan base worth those several hundred dollars. If you aren't able to keep up with your part of the deal then you are fooling yourself to think a sponsor will keep you.
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
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I'm going to next two MLGs. put me in coach!~
Good luck to all applicants!
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On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
Let me start by apologizing for the confusion in the post. I have edited the OP to be a little more accurate.
Now I will try and explain a few more things here as far as LAN and support from vVv.
If you do not attend any major LANs as defined in the OP then you are not representing vVv in anything important. When someone is looking for a sponsorship it always seems to be this question of "what will you do for me if i represent you?" If this is your thought process then you have likely never been sponsored by a real organization.
If you cannot attend major LANs (no matter what the reason) then I can settle this by saying the vVv Academy is not for you. If you CAN attend major LANs and you perform well, then there will be support from vVv. vVv-gaming is a very large organization and while strict on what we expect, our rewards are always on par with your performance.
I want you to think about the process here... If a company pays your entire travel expenses (several hundred dollars) to attend a LAN, then you are expected to produce a fan base worth those several hundred dollars. If you aren't able to keep up with your part of the deal then you are fooling yourself to think a sponsor will keep you.
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
sounds more reasonable.
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ok so what we thought originally was true. you do not pay LAN fees but expect them to pay their way to go there and do well in them. for a "very large organization" i have to say thats pretty sad you cant pay for at least one of your academy members...
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I think I'll just take my sponsorship from fake organizations then, the money is just as green.
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On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
Let me start by apologizing for the confusion in the post. I have edited the OP to be a little more accurate.
Now I will try and explain a few more things here as far as LAN and support from vVv.
If you do not attend any major LANs as defined in the OP then you are not representing vVv in anything important. When someone is looking for a sponsorship it always seems to be this question of "what will you do for me if i represent you?" If this is your thought process then you have likely never been sponsored by a real organization.
If you cannot attend major LANs (no matter what the reason) then I can settle this by saying the vVv Academy is not for you. If you CAN attend major LANs and you perform well, then there will be support from vVv. vVv-gaming is a very large organization and while strict on what we expect, our rewards are always on par with your performance.
I want you to think about the process here... If a company pays your entire travel expenses (several hundred dollars) to attend a LAN, then you are expected to produce a fan base worth those several hundred dollars. If you aren't able to keep up with your part of the deal then you are fooling yourself to think a sponsor will keep you.
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
why not just say online tournaments (where sc2 tournaments are mainly held) liek go4sc2, Zotac. Stuff like that. Cause tbh most of the best players represent their team that way.
A lot of players play mainly in online tournaments. Sheth mainly played online until mlg dallas 2011.
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Seems like a pretty terrible deal :/. You have to constantly have to pay and find time for live events, and all you get back is a keyboard, maybe decent practice partners (but you don't need this academy for that), and you get to advertise for vVv..
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On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
ok so what we thought originally was true. you do not pay LAN fees but expect them to pay their way to go there and do well in them. for a "very large organization" i have to say thats pretty sad you cant pay for at least one of your academy members...
These kind of comments really make me sad. If you can prove that you deserve a sponsorship then you will be sponsored. I will not make a blanket statement on guaranteed benefits as they are based on the individuals performance.
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On August 14 2011 06:18 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
ok so what we thought originally was true. you do not pay LAN fees but expect them to pay their way to go there and do well in them. for a "very large organization" i have to say thats pretty sad you cant pay for at least one of your academy members... These kind of comments really make me sad. If you can prove that you deserve a sponsorship then you will be sponsored. I will not make a blanket statement on guaranteed benefits as they are based on the individuals performance.
so what you're saying is that people need to spend several grand to attend major lan to have a chance at representing vVv? Lol is all i can say to this.
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On August 14 2011 06:18 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
ok so what we thought originally was true. you do not pay LAN fees but expect them to pay their way to go there and do well in them. for a "very large organization" i have to say thats pretty sad you cant pay for at least one of your academy members... These kind of comments really make me sad. If you can prove that you deserve a sponsorship then you will be sponsored. I will not make a blanket statement on guaranteed benefits as they are based on the individuals performance.
What you say is true, but in most cases people make a name for themselves by succeeding in online tournaments (Nerchio), gets picked up by a sponsored team that in return sends them to LANs. I just think it's a bit weird the other way around.
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On August 14 2011 06:17 masterbreti wrote:
why not just say online tournaments (where sc2 tournaments are mainly held) liek go4sc2, Zotac. Stuff like that. Cause tbh most of the best players represent their team that way.
No company cares about online tournaments. I want you to come to the academy and demonstrate that you are ready willing and able to become a professional starcraft player.
I would like to change your statement to "ALL the best players represent their team at major LANs."
If you think that I/we will say "hey, you got first in go4sc2, add vVv to your name and ill pay you a salary!" If sponsors did that then eSports would collapse.
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On August 14 2011 06:23 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:17 masterbreti wrote:
why not just say online tournaments (where sc2 tournaments are mainly held) liek go4sc2, Zotac. Stuff like that. Cause tbh most of the best players represent their team that way. No company cares about online tournaments. I want you to come to the academy and demonstrate that you are ready willing and able to become a professional starcraft player. I would like to change your statement to "ALL the best players represent their team at major LANs." If you think that I/we will say "hey, you got first in go4sc2, add vVv to your name and ill pay you a salary!" If sponsors did that then eSports would collapse.
Were not talking aobut a salary here though. Were talking about a non-paid, non sponsored academy.
Nericho, Sheth both played extremely well in online touraments and they were both picked up by major teams. neither of them went to a lan afaik before their first ones after they joined a major team.
I would love to apply to something like this but in all honesty I can't afford to go to mlg's and such. I don't have a full time job nor have a job able to pay for the $1500 is takes to go to a major lan.
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On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
What you say is true, but in most cases people make a name for themselves by succeeding in online tournaments (Nerchio), gets picked up by a sponsored team that in return sends them to LANs. I just think it's a bit weird the other way around.
If you are a known player, getting sponsorship requests from other teams, performing well in online tournaments and just too broke to attend any LAN then we can talk in private. If you aren't in that position then you can feel free to continue to be unsponsored or you can try out for the vVv Academy for a chance to prove yourself with your prospective sponsor watching. Performance at a LAN is a VERY important part of proving your skill and value and that is why it is part of the process.
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I have a question, is it for american citizens only or is it open for anyone?
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I'm sure there are many very good players who can't afford to attend lans because let's be realistic: flight tickets, hotels, entry fees, food, are not cheap. To require acadamy members whom basicly get no compensation and nothing in return to travel to lans out of their own pocket, seems a bit off to me.
And no there are plenty of online tournamnets that sponsord DO care about. WCG qualifiers that are online? IPL qualifiers, winning all the minor tournaments which still have some pros in them? Sponsors do care about those, they know there are very talanted players out there that don't have the money to go to lans by themselves.
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Honestly, I feel like you'd be incredibly lucky to find 6 players who come close to meeting your criteria. Even if you limit to only GM+ skill level (and really you're not gonna be sponsoring masters players anyways), the amount of players available who aren't already on a team and would be interested in joining vVv is incredibly low. Add onto that the fact that they have to pay for what seems like a crap ton of LANs for very little reward, I highly doubt you'll find many players.
The various above points about online tournaments are valid. You could at least reduce it to like one or two MLGs or something (especicially considering its halfway through the circuit, and you seriously expect people to go to Europe to join your team? El oh El.)
Either way you will have to lower your standards somewhere, either in financial or skill ability.
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On August 14 2011 06:33 hunts wrote:To require acadamy members whom basicly get no compensation and nothing in return to travel to lans out of their own pocket, seems a bit off to me.
They do get compensation, it's just that for some crazy reason the details are private until you're already committed.
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I don't understand why vVv is getting all this heat. If you don't think this opportunity is reasonable, then fine, don't apply. I'm sure, however, that there are many people out there who are scrambling to apply.
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On August 14 2011 06:38 pyaar wrote:
I don't understand why vVv is getting all this heat. If you don't think this opportunity is reasonable, then fine, don't apply. I'm sure, however, that there are many people out there who are scrambling to apply.
I think it's a cool initiative by vVv, they probably are just setting the bar very high. They're essentially expecting people to travel cross-country to participate in Open Bracket (reasonable), show up to NASL to watch the games (err...), and then go to Europe to play in the Open Bracket for Dreamhack (for which only 2 people qualify)...... that one doesn't sound so reasonable (assuming you're from NA). I think it's just a little challenging.
The thing that really bugs me is that they say Dreamhack counts as a Major event, yet I can't find any actual vVv member participating in the Open BYOC tournament to qualify (yet they expect an Academy member to do so)... correct me if I'm wrong though, I just don't see it in the bracket (I have it open right now).
tldr: If vVv holds their team members to these standards then it's fine. But I don't see it being enforced, which makes it seem a bit ridiculous.
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On August 14 2011 06:36 Russano wrote:
Honestly, I feel like you'd be incredibly lucky to find 6 players who come close to meeting your criteria. Even if you limit to only GM+ skill level (and really you're not gonna be sponsoring masters players anyways), the amount of players available who aren't already on a team and would be interested in joining vVv is incredibly low. Add onto that the fact that they have to pay for what seems like a crap ton of LANs for very little reward, I highly doubt you'll find many players.
The various above points about online tournaments are valid. You could at least reduce it to like one or two MLGs or something (especicially considering its halfway through the circuit, and you seriously expect people to go to Europe to join your team? El oh El.)
Either way you will have to lower your standards somewhere, either in financial or skill ability.
You are not required to attend ALL major lans. The list of major lans is the lans that your performance in will be looked at in order to determine sponsorship. If you do not attend lans then you will not be sponsored. simple as that.
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On August 14 2011 06:41 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:38 pyaar wrote:
I don't understand why vVv is getting all this heat. If you don't think this opportunity is reasonable, then fine, don't apply. I'm sure, however, that there are many people out there who are scrambling to apply. I think it's a cool initiative by vVv, they probably are just setting the bar very high. They're essentially expecting people to travel cross-country to participate in Open Bracket (reasonable), show up to NASL to watch the games (err...), and then go to Europe to play in the Open Bracket for Dreamhack (for which only 2 people qualify)...... that one doesn't sound so reasonable (assuming you're from NA). I think it's just a little challenging. The thing that really bugs me is that they say Dreamhack counts as a Major event, yet I can't find any actual vVv member participating in the Open BYOC tournament to qualify (yet they expect an Academy member to do so)... correct me if I'm wrong though, I just don't see it in the bracket (I have it open right now). tldr: If vVv holds their team members to these standards then it's fine. But I don't see it being enforced, which makes it seem a bit ridiculous.
See the post above this
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While I understand the importance of participation in LANs, you simply cannot expect your amateur academy players to pay thousands and thousands of dollars a year to attend major tournaments across the globe to retain the privilege of being on your academy team. I would love to apply for this and work my ass off to compete with the very best, but, and this is almost assuredly the case for 99% of potential applicants, there is absolutely no way I can afford to fly myself out to these events in exchange for a keyboard that I already own.
I suggest you mirror coL academy's format for something more accessible.
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On August 14 2011 06:37 Soleron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:33 hunts wrote:To require acadamy members whom basicly get no compensation and nothing in return to travel to lans out of their own pocket, seems a bit off to me. They do get compensation, it's just that for some crazy reason the details are private until you're already committed.
Can you tell me how much Idra makes, huk, destiny... any pro player?
If you can.... do they each get the same benefits?
That is why compensation is not discussed. It is based on performance, and if you cannot perform well enough but are dedicated to improving then we will help you get there through training and coaching until you are ready.
You will not be given money if you do not prove you deserve it.
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Just curious, what do you consider good enough to be worthy of being on your team?
edit: Both in general skill level, and LAN results wise.
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this is just confusing. If you don't attend lans you will not be sponsored but... even if you prove yourself in the academy and prove that you can compete for a spot on the top line up of vvv sc2 players, how would you go to these events? Because it does cost alot to fly out from wherever you live to mlg. Usualy sponsors are the ones that help out in this situation but here you can't be sponsored unless you first go to a lan.
And winning online tournaments, how the hell is that not valid? IGN is online tournament i guess thats not valid. Online tournament is where you prove yourself that you can compete at high lvl. Beating a pro player like idra or select in a go4sc2 means nothing?
I'm sure there are many good players who want to show they are top tier in academy but then what. What do they do from there if they don't have the money to fly out
Edit: What are the recent performances by the top vvv players? They must be paid based on performance level as well right? I'm trying to think
Edit: Well basically a player is suppose to support himself and prove he can compete at a top tier level but then for example at a major lan event such as mlg, he flew himself there and is supporting himself there, what reason does he have to represent vVv? Why not any other team or teamless and try to get picked up
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On August 14 2011 06:44 tirentu wrote:
While I understand the importance of participation in LANs, you simply cannot expect your amateur academy players to pay thousands and thousands of dollars a year to attend major tournaments across the globe to retain the privilege of being on your academy team. I would love to apply for this and work my ass off to compete with the very best, but, and this is almost assuredly the case for 99% of potential applicants, there is absolutely no way I can afford to fly myself out to these events in exchange for a keyboard that I already own.
I suggest you mirror coL academy's format for something more accessible.
I think the idea is they're looking for people who are gonna do this 24/7, as in make this their job. I just think they could've worded it better on the original post - at first glance it does look like a huge rip-off. Further clarification made it more easily understandable - to be honest they should really just put MLG in there as opposed to all the other randoms that an individual would almost 100% not attend.
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this whole thing seems a bit absurd, if a team member does end up going to LANs and committing their time and money for vVv, they can be eliminated from the team in an online tournament based on their performance? Wow, really well done....
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On August 14 2011 06:43 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:36 Russano wrote:
Honestly, I feel like you'd be incredibly lucky to find 6 players who come close to meeting your criteria. Even if you limit to only GM+ skill level (and really you're not gonna be sponsoring masters players anyways), the amount of players available who aren't already on a team and would be interested in joining vVv is incredibly low. Add onto that the fact that they have to pay for what seems like a crap ton of LANs for very little reward, I highly doubt you'll find many players.
The various above points about online tournaments are valid. You could at least reduce it to like one or two MLGs or something (especicially considering its halfway through the circuit, and you seriously expect people to go to Europe to join your team? El oh El.)
Either way you will have to lower your standards somewhere, either in financial or skill ability.
You are not required to attend ALL major lans. The list of major lans is the lans that your performance in will be looked at in order to determine sponsorship. If you do not attend lans then you will not be sponsored. simple as that.
Honestly I can see what you guys are trying to get at with this but you have to understand it from the public's perspective.
1. You ask us to make a huge commitment in which we have to "here will be a tournament held on the first Sunday of every month " "All members are required to attend weekly meetings at 9:30PM EST on mumble" "All members are required to be present at every clan war to support the team and discuss the matches" "All members must attend scheduled practice sessions as well as keep up with all other parts of the training schedule" with little to no incentive. If we show up to the tournament, we fight through a likely grueling bracket to win 50 dollars. To a lot of people that is not worth the time or money. If you made it cutthroat where every month X amount of people were dropped from the program, similar to complexity's then it would make sense because at the end complexity is willing to send 3 people from their academy. But you guys are assuming some people are looking to go pro, have money, and have time to go and do all of this including major LANs(Lets assume MLG for American players because you guys ARE a NA org.)
2. "In fact, your ability to remain on the academy is dependent on it. If you do not attend major LANS, we have the option to drop you from the academy" oozes commitment. I have seen your site and to become a member of vVv you have to have/make a twitter and use other social media devices. So naturally you guys are used to people making commitments. You guys would naturally get people to try to join because they can make simple commitments like tweet sponsors or hashtag w/e you guys needed to be hashtagged. I don't think you guys hang 'attend LANs or we don't let you tag up' over your non A-Team members do you? If you do my mistake but from what I can see I don't think that is the case.
3. You ask for way too much from people who enjoy SC2 and wish to go pro. You don't see that many of those same people have other commitments that cannot be spent on a major LAN, sure they can take a weekend of time and play in a number of online tournaments but they cannot travel across the nation to compete in an event where big name pros like the Koreans(FXO) or open bracket players like KawaiiRice/EG players will easily knock them out. If they were capable on a day to day basis to beat players like this I am sure another organization would have picked them up(Think Reign picking up gix or itsgosu, smaller organizations that don't have huge sponsors/salary)
tldr; you expect too much
Good Luck though with this academy
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On August 14 2011 06:51 Malstriks wrote:
this whole thing seems a bit absurd, if a team member does up going to LANs and committing their time and money to vVv, they can be eliminated from the team in an online tournament based on their performance? Wow, really well done....
I admire your faith in our popularity. To say that if you go to MLG and place well then cannot maintain a top 6 position in an Academy just isn't plausible.
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On August 14 2011 06:49 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:44 tirentu wrote:
While I understand the importance of participation in LANs, you simply cannot expect your amateur academy players to pay thousands and thousands of dollars a year to attend major tournaments across the globe to retain the privilege of being on your academy team. I would love to apply for this and work my ass off to compete with the very best, but, and this is almost assuredly the case for 99% of potential applicants, there is absolutely no way I can afford to fly myself out to these events in exchange for a keyboard that I already own.
I suggest you mirror coL academy's format for something more accessible. I think the idea is they're looking for people who are gonna do this 24/7, as in make this their job. I just think they could've worded it better on the original post - at first glance it does look like a huge rip-off. Further clarification made it more easily understandable - to be honest they should really just put MLG in there as opposed to all the other randoms that an individual would almost 100% not attend.
Yes, but what kind of amateur sc2 player has the capital that they're expecting? You'd need to be working full-time to afford attending the event, but you'd have to be playing sc2 fulltime to perform adequately at the event. This is a problem.
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good responses by the OP. I think Sweep makes a very good point on ROI, and what a minority in this thread do not understand is the exact concept of investment and business, especially considering how hard it is for newcomers to the scene to have a piece of the most profitable pie. Although saying that, vVv is an established organisation who have supported the smaller gaming communties out there, and for that, they have my respect.
Any project reguarding development of upcoming talent needs as much support as possible
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On August 14 2011 06:55 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:51 Malstriks wrote:
this whole thing seems a bit absurd, if a team member does up going to LANs and committing their time and money to vVv, they can be eliminated from the team in an online tournament based on their performance? Wow, really well done.... I admire your faith in our popularity. To say that if you go to MLG and place well then cannot maintain a top 6 position in an Academy just isn't plausible.
I never said they would end up placing well in MLG. Say a person wishes to join vVv academy and fulfills the requirement of going to MLG events and other LANs for the sole purpose of staying within the academy, and also say that he/she does not place well (it would be extremely hard). And then say that they do not perform well in the tournaments you have set up that "determine who stays, joins, and leaves" the academy. They will be eliminated regardless of the fact that they have already committed a lot of time and money?
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On August 14 2011 06:58 infussle wrote:
good responses by the OP. I think Sweep makes a very good point on ROI, and what a minority in this thread do not understand is the exact concept of investment and business, especially considering how hard it is for newcomers to the scene to have a piece of the most profitable pie. Although saying that, vVv is an established organisation who have supported the smaller gaming communties out there, and for that, they have my respect.
Any project reguarding development of upcoming talent needs as much support as possible
My issue was that the criteria for both skill and financial means is so limiting, that you wouldn't find adequate people that fit them
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How do you define "doing well in LANs" because, to be perfectly honestly, I can't remember a single notable result posted in a LAN by a single member of your current team.
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Does vVv pay for its sponsored players to go to MLG's, etc?
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On August 14 2011 07:04 templar rage wrote:
How do you define "doing well in LANs" because, to be perfectly honestly, I can't remember a single notable result posted in a LAN by a single member of your current team.
That's the less delicate version of my earlier question 
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On August 14 2011 07:01 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:55 vVvSweep wrote:On August 14 2011 06:51 Malstriks wrote:
this whole thing seems a bit absurd, if a team member does up going to LANs and committing their time and money to vVv, they can be eliminated from the team in an online tournament based on their performance? Wow, really well done.... I admire your faith in our popularity. To say that if you go to MLG and place well then cannot maintain a top 6 position in an Academy just isn't plausible. I never said they would end up placing well in MLG. Say a person wishes to join vVv academy and fulfills the requirement of going to MLG events and other LANs for the sole purpose of staying within the academy, and also say that he/she does not place well (it would be extremely hard). And then say that they do not perform well in the tournaments you have set up that "determine who stays, joins, and leaves" the academy. They will be eliminated regardless of the fact that they have already committed a lot of time and money?
If you do not feel you can perform well (or at least have a good time) at a major LAN then don't go to one. This may lead to you being dropped from the Academy though. The point is, if you can't perform well at a LAN then you aren't ready to be sponsored. The vVv Academy is a place for you to prove you are ready to be sponsored and once proven you will be rewarded.
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On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
If you do not attend any major LANs as defined in the OP then you are not representing vVv in anything important. When someone is looking for a sponsorship it always seems to be this question of "what will you do for me if i represent you?" If this is your thought process then you have likely never been sponsored by a real organization.
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
Honestly I don't understand why you don't want discuss benefits. Because from your OP it sounds like a very bad deal. You're asking the players to attend weekly meetings, attend multiple LANs at their own expense, attend all clan wars (even if they're not participating), and all practice sessions. On top of that they must do well in monthly qualifiers or they get fired.
And in exchange, all you're offering the players...is some free Steelseries gear? And even then, only after being on the team for 90 days and only when they attend a LAN.
Honestly most people would be better off using that time to work a minimum wage job and buy the gear themselves.
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On August 14 2011 06:58 infussle wrote:
good responses by the OP. I think Sweep makes a very good point on ROI, and what a minority in this thread do not understand is the exact concept of investment and business, especially considering how hard it is for newcomers to the scene to have a piece of the most profitable pie. Although saying that, vVv is an established organisation who have supported the smaller gaming communties out there, and for that, they have my respect.
Any project reguarding development of upcoming talent needs as much support as possible
The issue is not ROI for vVv but ROI for the players.
You have to pay thousands of dollars and what do you get in return, vVv training wheel tags. You have the potential to join vVv but it isn't stated how one does that. I don't think the academy is some nefarious attempt to have players represent vVv at no cost to the organization but what incentive does vVv have to actually put players on their A team? These people will already be representing vVv but it will come at almost no cost to the organization.
For a high level player to even consider this they need to see how this will actually get them placed on vVv's real team.
The coL academy which is similar to this says this in regard to actually joining complexity.
"Each CA member will execute a 9 month option contract with compLexity Gaming. If said option is exercised, the member will be given a full pro gamer contract and a new gaming computer from ORIGIN PC."
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On August 14 2011 07:04 templar rage wrote:
How do you define "doing well in LANs" because, to be perfectly honestly, I can't remember a single notable result posted in a LAN by a single member of your current team.
hahaha good question
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On August 14 2011 07:04 jupidar wrote:
Does vVv pay for its sponsored players to go to MLG's, etc?
I can not discuss the benefits towards our team.
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On August 14 2011 07:04 templar rage wrote:
How do you define "doing well in LANs" because, to be perfectly honestly, I can't remember a single notable result posted in a LAN by a single member of your current team.
Seriously, Titan and Murder are almost unarguably the best players on vVv and all they've done is do good in clanwars and do "sorta ok" at MLG.
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Is there a age restriction for the academy? I don't think minors would be able to afford going to major lans unless they are in their area.
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the fact of the matter is if you can afford to go to LANs where you can show off your skill and place decently you will get noticed by a big organization. you do not need to be apart of this academy in order to get sponsored/noticed like you are trying to lead people to believe. And if someone can afford to go to major LANS and they are currently with a team that gives them nothing I wouldnt represent them. I wouldnt want potential sponsors that look at me to think "hes taken". I would want to get all the offers I could and being apart of vVv would deter sponsors that are willing to pay travel expenses away.
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Is this open to UK players, who can only attend UK tournaments such as the i-Series LANs? Maybe the odd European LAN...?
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the whole "need to go to major LAN or you're out" thing is the problem, not the $$ needed to get academy members there.
i think vVv is in the wrong here though, it's like telling these guys to shell out money first by going to these LAN events, and if companies want to sponsor these guys cause they did well, they'll sponsor them through vVv and "keep" them in vVv academy, all the while vVv investing nothing on the players (except for maybe practice sessions, which could be done by dedicated group of players anyway).
TLDR: i think vVv is "recruiting" players to get $$ with no real "investment" on their part.
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I definitely think you guys are looking on this the wrong way. What vVv is offering is simply a chance for players who are at a high level of skill, but have not broken into the top tier yet or haven't been noticed..they are offering them a home. They're saying look, you should be doing all these things like practicing, tournaments, streaming, etc already to promote yourself so why not do it with vVv where you have the chance to make a little money, get some free gear and even have a chance to become a sponsored player once they believe you're ready.
This opportunity is not for the people who will NEVER attend an event on their own. Very few people got sponsored before they attended a single event. Sometimes, if you believe in something you have to just go for it and put yourself out there a bit. If you are just having fun, and do not wish to become a better player, or practice, or play in matches..the opportunity is not for you. However, if you want to do all those things I would think this opportunity would be perfect for you. You get better practice, more established team, team experience that you might not get on your own, information from a respectable organization, maybe some gear, all that for just a little bit of your time and effort.
Even if you don't want to be apart of it, show a little respect for the people that do please.
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On August 14 2011 07:07 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:01 Malstriks wrote:On August 14 2011 06:55 vVvSweep wrote:On August 14 2011 06:51 Malstriks wrote:
this whole thing seems a bit absurd, if a team member does up going to LANs and committing their time and money to vVv, they can be eliminated from the team in an online tournament based on their performance? Wow, really well done.... I admire your faith in our popularity. To say that if you go to MLG and place well then cannot maintain a top 6 position in an Academy just isn't plausible. I never said they would end up placing well in MLG. Say a person wishes to join vVv academy and fulfills the requirement of going to MLG events and other LANs for the sole purpose of staying within the academy, and also say that he/she does not place well (it would be extremely hard). And then say that they do not perform well in the tournaments you have set up that "determine who stays, joins, and leaves" the academy. They will be eliminated regardless of the fact that they have already committed a lot of time and money? If you do not feel you can perform well (or at least have a good time) at a major LAN then don't go to one. This may lead to you being dropped from the Academy though. The point is, if you can't perform well at a LAN then you aren't ready to be sponsored. The vVv Academy is a place for you to prove you are ready to be sponsored and once proven you will be rewarded.
It's just unrealistic to expect a player to be able to attend a LAN when it's not in their home area. Flying out + hotel fees + entry fee + food, etc....Complexity has a much better model by sending the top 2 from their academy to MLG events. Granted, it could end up being a waste of money on these players, but I think the best way to prevent this is to invest a bit of time into who gets recruited into the academy. Surely a player doesn't have to go to a LAN event to be talented, and these are the players that you want to pick up, undiscovered talent.
If a player can afford to send his/herself to LAN events and place "well" why on earth would he need to join an academy for a team?
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@keyhunt - apparently, you missed the whole point of the issue being raised by people here (ie, about players being asked to shell out their own money to get to LAN and do well just to stay in vVv academy)
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Just to clarify my point a little, I wouldn't be adverse to applying for this if I qualified (only Diamond). I might even put in huge grind to push to Masters just to apply. I just want to know what kind of performance at a LAN they consider "good" first.
Just as an example for me personally, I think I would probably have an easier time meeting the LAN requirement than most. I live in RI, so that's already no cost to me besides the pass to go to MLG Providence. I also wouldn't be adverse to travelling to Raleigh and Orlando (having just gotten home from a 3k mile road trip that took me through both places). Just as an estimate, say it costs me $1000 dollars to travel to Raleigh and Orlando (I'm even being nice because I'm not flying, but driving). Depending on what kind of performance would merit consideration to sponsoring me, I would probably do that.
Now, I wouldn't necessarily consider that a huge risk, despite it being a fair amount of money and me not being rich whatsoever. However, as I stated, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm in the vast minority that could do that. Anyone who has to fly to these events (and I would assume if you fly to Raleigh, you fly to Orlando because of proximity between those places) would probably double my costs easily.
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It is seriously concerning the sentiment in this thread. This is one of the most accessible ways to get into the competitive scene, something that is very difficult to do, and you guys are bitching about having to go to a LAN?
There are things about breaking into the game competitively that are very difficult to do, this solves all of them.
You're getting regular, quality practice with discipline, which as we can all observe is absolutely critical in being competitive, and you get a chance to advance under a sponsor.
The self entitlement everyone is putting out is really surprising and unrealistic.
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I think it is because most players want to prove themselves online and work their way towards a partial LAN sponsorhip, instead of just having to pay their entire way to a LAN without having any way to know if they will perform well, thereby getting cut immediately after, having spent their money to attend.
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On August 14 2011 07:08 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:04 jupidar wrote:
Does vVv pay for its sponsored players to go to MLG's, etc? I can not discuss the benefits towards our team.
of course they are paying for the traveling expenses, what kind of retard do you take vVv for?
do you really expect vVv to be dumb enough to think they can find even one random person to represent their team and go to MLG with their own expense?
stop patronizing vVvSweep! 
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On August 14 2011 07:17 HornSnHaloS wrote:
There are things about breaking into the game competitively that are very difficult to do, this solves all of them.
You're getting regular, quality practice with discipline, which as we can all observe is absolutely critical in being competitive, and you get a chance to advance under a sponsor.
The self entitlement everyone is putting out is really surprising and unrealistic.
The problem most people are having is that you first have to put up thousands of your own money as well as weeks of your life to get yourself to those LANs to prove yourself, only after which will vVv consider paying you.
Unlike a pro player contract, vVv can easily just never pay you and don't have to disclose why, all while getting the benefit of having you represent them. The risk is all yours.
Look at complexity academy for something that does what you say (quality practice) without the lopsided conditions.
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On August 14 2011 07:17 HornSnHaloS wrote:
It is seriously concerning the sentiment in this thread. This is one of the most accessible ways to get into the competitive scene, something that is very difficult to do, and you guys are bitching about having to go to a LAN?
There are things about breaking into the game competitively that are very difficult to do, this solves all of them.
You're getting regular, quality practice with discipline, which as we can all observe is absolutely critical in being competitive, and you get a chance to advance under a sponsor.
The self entitlement everyone is putting out is really surprising and unrealistic.
You make a good point, getting to train with some of the vVv players would be beneficial but it requires an inordinate investment from the people in the academy. A huge time commitment on top of their practice load they already bear and then a massive financial commitment to attend these lans. It would be a more sound decision to just buy lessons as you get access to better players who are working one on one to make you a better player.
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On August 14 2011 07:17 HornSnHaloS wrote:
It is seriously concerning the sentiment in this thread. This is one of the most accessible ways to get into the competitive scene, something that is very difficult to do, and you guys are bitching about having to go to a LAN?
There are things about breaking into the game competitively that are very difficult to do, this solves all of them.
You're getting regular, quality practice with discipline, which as we can all observe is absolutely critical in being competitive, and you get a chance to advance under a sponsor.
The self entitlement everyone is putting out is really surprising and unrealistic.
I think this is an extremely unfair point of view. "Bitching" about going to a LAN isn't exactly unfounded, or do you have that kind of money to shell out to just attend the next MLG (most players trying to make SC2 their career don't).
The practice is a great thing, but at the same time realize practicing in an academy doesn't guarantee you're going to get good enough to get on the A team. In fact, from what I've read it sounds like you have to do extremely well to get onto the A team....well enough that other teams would possibly be interested in you as well. And if you don't do that well, oh well free advertising for vVv
at least that's what it sounds like to me
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 07:07 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:58 infussle wrote:
good responses by the OP. I think Sweep makes a very good point on ROI, and what a minority in this thread do not understand is the exact concept of investment and business, especially considering how hard it is for newcomers to the scene to have a piece of the most profitable pie. Although saying that, vVv is an established organisation who have supported the smaller gaming communties out there, and for that, they have my respect.
Any project reguarding development of upcoming talent needs as much support as possible The issue is not ROI for vVv but ROI for the players. You have to pay thousands of dollars and what do you get in return, vVv training wheel tags. You have the potential to join vVv but it isn't stated how one does that. I don't think the academy is some nefarious attempt to have players represent vVv at no cost to the organization but what incentive does vVv have to actually put players on their A team? These people will already be representing vVv but it will come at almost no cost to the organization. For a high level player to even consider this they need to see how this will actually get them placed on vVv's real team. The coL academy which is similar to this says this in regard to actually joining complexity. "Each CA member will execute a 9 month option contract with compLexity Gaming. If said option is exercised, the member will be given a full pro gamer contract and a new gaming computer from ORIGIN PC."
Wouldn't you agree that it is a very slippery slope to discuss absolutions when you have only made the initial steps to run a tournment and introduce potential players into a team. I mean, does anyone think its reasonable for a team to say they will offer fully paid travel for players to LAN, without even knowing the players who will be successful in the tournament. I was under the assumption that contracts were based on the individual aswell as the said team, and the contract displays an agreement between the team and player.
In terms of incentive for sending players in the academy, vVv sound willing (looking at the OP's responses in this thread) to send and pay for the players to attend the big lans. But as any smart business, they have not agreed something which is not clearly benefical to them, when again, they have no idea of who they are signing. Although there is something to be said about the actual tournament, and yes i would of preferred to see more similarities to the dignitas and complexity academy. Furthermore, is not standard for academies to offer full placements on their offical team if there is a mutal agreement? Complexity have been smart, as far as i can tell, because they are viturally offering the same as vVv.
Please correct me if im wrong, I don't claim to know alot about business
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Looks pretty useless to me or is there something I am missing?
Nope. Looks pretty useless to me.
User was banned for this post.
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On August 14 2011 07:07 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
If you do not attend any major LANs as defined in the OP then you are not representing vVv in anything important. When someone is looking for a sponsorship it always seems to be this question of "what will you do for me if i represent you?" If this is your thought process then you have likely never been sponsored by a real organization.
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum. Honestly I don't understand why you don't want discuss benefits. Because from your OP it sounds like a very bad deal. You're asking the players to attend weekly meetings, attend multiple LANs at their own expense, attend all clan wars (even if they're not participating), and all practice sessions. On top of that they must do well in monthly qualifiers or they get fired. And in exchange, all you're offering the players...is some free Steelseries gear? And even then, only after being on the team for 90 days and only when they attend a LAN. Honestly most people would be better off using that time to work a minimum wage job and buy the gear themselves.
If you are in the Academy for 90days and then you choose to attend a LAN, if we feel you will perform well we will provide you with steelseries gear. If you then DO perform well, consideration will be made for benefits based on performance. If you DO NOT perform well, you keep the gear and are able to go to another LAN of your choosing to try again.
I wont discuss benefits in a public forum because its not black and white. If i post "if you place in top 50 at MLG then we will reimburse your expenses" then that could mean gas money to one person or several hundred dollars to another. At the same time, the people you play in the bracket can have an effect as well and would be considered. This is a small team that will get a lot of attention. But there is no simple answer to what you will be given.
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First off, if you do considerably well online; I highly doubt they would cut you even if you weren't attending an event in the immediate future. I am not trying to put words in their mouth, but that would be a damn good guess from past experience.
However, in my opinion you should WANT to attend these events. If you're trying to grow as a player, if you're already getting practice with top players ( which this will help you do ), playing in top clan wars, playing in many tournaments, etc..that is the next logical step. So, even if VVV isn't paying for anything you should want to attend these events on your own rather than beg and pray for a sponsorship that might not ever come..especially to someone with 0 LAN experience.
Also, you are looking way too much at the "good" performance at MLG. By the standard of an Academy, non-sponsored at the time player, a "good" MLG performance is really a situational thing. Of course, your management and team is going to see how tough of a road you had in open bracket, and take that into account..you're not going to be cut from a team because you lost to a korean 2nd round, or you only made it to 3rd round or something. It just doesn't make any sense for an organization that is trying to make you better as a player so they CAN sponsor you, to cut you because you didn't do as well as their sponsored players..and they know that.
( Please, anyone from VVV let me know if I am putting words in your mouth or of I am wrong; but I believe everything I said to be in the spirit of the post )
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gotta take a break, ill try and catch up on more posts later!
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On August 14 2011 07:26 KeyHunt wrote:
First off, if you do considerably well online; I highly doubt they would cut you even if you weren't attending an event in the immediate future. I am not trying to put words in their mouth, but that would be a damn good guess from past experience.
However, in my opinion you should WANT to attend these events. If you're trying to grow as a player, if you're already getting practice with top players ( which this will help you do ), playing in top clan wars, playing in many tournaments, etc..that is the next logical step. So, even if VVV isn't paying for anything you should want to attend these events on your own rather than beg and pray for a sponsorship that might not ever come..especially to someone with 0 LAN experience.
Also, you are looking way too much at the "good" performance at MLG. By the standard of an Academy, non-sponsored at the time player, a "good" MLG performance is really a situational thing. Of course, your management and team is going to see how tough of a road you had in open bracket, and take that into account..you're not going to be cut from a team because you lost to a korean 2nd round, or you only made it to 3rd round or something. It just doesn't make any sense for an organization that is trying to make you better as a player so they CAN sponsor you, to cut you because you didn't do as well as their sponsored players..and they know that.
( Please, anyone from VVV let me know if I am putting words in your mouth or of I am wrong; but I believe everything I said to be in the spirit of the post )
This is exactly right.
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That you are willing to converse so much with the community about the academy is commendable. I still would like to see what the mechanic for actually joining the real roster is. That is a big deal and it hasn't been addressed.
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Why would anyone want to join vVv ? 80% of their team are recreational diamond players and the other 20% are not even that good masters players. They have a few Grandmasters but even those aren't that good.
If you want to join vVv just go to their channel and ask to join. They have a lot of low level players there.
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Maybe it's just me, but after reading through the comments I don't see any benefits of joining. Most people here (I'm assuming) can't afford to attend many LAN events. Attending university costs money, and lots of it.
Anyways, good luck on finding your star players! :D
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"very large organization" cannot afford to pay for its own crew rofl
don't give me this shit about performing well, you should as a "very large oganization" support/take care/encourage your players no matter what the results are - good results come in time
and trust me if you keep this attitude of your academy or whatever you call it then you will just fail...
gl anyway
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Yea, this is no different from going to some academy or school for a different profession. One could say that college/university is an investment that costs a blind investment fee with the chance to study in a great environment. However, if you flunk, you will most probably be kicked (and that is why you don't pay the high tuition for classes unless you are serious about going for a degree). This academy is kind of the same way except the "tuition" would just be attending a few LANs and it's very exclusive and easier to fail (such as some top university would be).
One could argue that starcraft pro gaming is not very stable and the reward of a sponsorship is not very great, but neither is the investment in comparison to a professional degree. The bottomline is you have to be very serious about being a pro gamer if you want to enter this "university", and you must show results or you will not make it in that field (just like many, many other professions out there), and that entails spending the time and the money to reach that goal.
To get far you have to take risks in life, this is really no different. You can't expect to dabble and get some free rides to MLG while only investing time and just dropping it if you don't want it. Colleges wouldn't want that, employers wouldn't want that, and vvv does not want it for someone they are considering working for/representing them.
edit: However, whether or not they think training/sponsoring by vvv is good enough for that investment of their time/money is another matter.
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On August 14 2011 07:41 MMXMoto-X17 wrote:
Why would anyone want to join vVv ? 80% of their team are recreational diamond players and the other 20% are not even that good masters players. They have a few Grandmasters but even those aren't that good.
If you want to join vVv just go to their channel and ask to join. They have a lot of low level players there.
Don't post shit like this please. You have no idea what you're talking about. vVv's A roster team is quite skilled.
They ARE a community team, so your other "aggressive" point literally makes no sense. Even the Academy members are strong players looking to get over the hump of competitive gaming.
There is a large curve for gaining fame in eSports(SC) right now, vVv expects large things, and if you provide results u get compensated, it makes sense.
In response to where players of vVv have placed at LANs, if you even look at any of their games/brackets from Columbus, for example, you'd see some of their players did pretty well, and they had some other things they had to deal with as well, including a team kill in the later stages of the bracket. Don't post random BS when you really have never even followed any of their player's results. I enjoy the fact that the people who are posting the things about "where are your results" are online players only themselves, but with no where near the recognition vVv has.
If you don't like the idea of the academy -- as how has been voiced -- then it's not like they're going to stop you from saying so however, that doesn't give you the right to continually bash them for, in any way you look at it, providing people with the opportunity to take their gaming to a new level with the proper dedication.
:/
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This type of model just doesnt work with vVv's current image in SC2. vVv isnt necessarily a high end organization like a Liquid, EG, Mouz, Dignitas, Fnatic, FXO, or even coL. These types of teams I could see people paying their way to tournaments just for a shot at being on them. vVv isnt that prestigious in SC2 (maybe in others games) yet im sorry to say.
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On August 14 2011 06:58 infussle wrote:
good responses by the OP. I think Sweep makes a very good point on ROI, and what a minority in this thread do not understand is the exact concept of investment and business, especially considering how hard it is for newcomers to the scene to have a piece of the most profitable pie. Although saying that, vVv is an established organisation who have supported the smaller gaming communties out there, and for that, they have my respect.
Any project reguarding development of upcoming talent needs as much support as possible
He makes a good point except what incentive does Player A have of using the vVv tag if he is paying out of his/her own pocket to go to MLG or NASL or wherever?
Essentially vVv is expecting people to commit to being a pro as if it's a job, and also expecting them to travel around playing in tournaments that would require a full time job (not sc2) to pay for them.
That's asking far too much from someone. I mean personally I could never afford to pay to send myself to MLG with the job I work at now, and yet I would then have to take up even more of my free time training with the vVv team? With no possibility of sponsorship until I spend MY OWN money going to some event in which I'll probably be knocked out of the open bracket in the 2nd or 3rd round? (sorry but im not beating any koreans, and none of the vVv A-Teamers have either)
I find it funny that they are basically asking more of their own academy members than their players already on the sponsored team.
Correct me if I'm wrong sweep but that's just how I see it.
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On August 14 2011 07:21 Soleron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:17 HornSnHaloS wrote:
There are things about breaking into the game competitively that are very difficult to do, this solves all of them.
You're getting regular, quality practice with discipline, which as we can all observe is absolutely critical in being competitive, and you get a chance to advance under a sponsor.
The self entitlement everyone is putting out is really surprising and unrealistic. The problem most people are having is that you first have to put up thousands of your own money as well as weeks of your life to get yourself to those LANs to prove yourself, only after which will vVv consider paying you. Unlike a pro player contract, vVv can easily just never pay you and don't have to disclose why, all while getting the benefit of having you represent them. The risk is all yours. Look at complexity academy for something that does what you say (quality practice) without the lopsided conditions.
I'm unfamiliar with the complexity academy, but my point is that this is an extremely accessible way to break into the competitive scene, and they are providing you with an abundance of quality practice partners that you otherwise wouldn't have access to.
In return for this, they expect you to represent them. Obviously they aren't running some charity thing where they don't expect anything of the players. They are looking for quality players trying the break onto the scene and who see this as a mutually beneficial opportunity.
And yes, it is unlike a pro contract because you aren't pro, they are merely giving you access to be able to make it, something that is really hard to come by.
On August 14 2011 07:21 Moa wrote:
You make a good point, getting to train with some of the vVv players would be beneficial but it requires an inordinate investment from the people in the academy. A huge time commitment on top of their practice load they already bear and then a massive financial commitment to attend these lans. It would be a more sound decision to just buy lessons as you get access to better players who are working one on one to make you a better player.
While coaching will always help it is not a substitution for an abundance of practice partners that play regularly and have a mutual desire to improve to the highest level.
And yes i recognize that it's a big investment to go to LANs, but it says you might be removed, it does not definitively say one way or the other. It is in my opinion perfectly fair for them given what they are providing you with to expect you to go to LANs and represent the team that enabled you to get the level you would be at.
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Reading over the application process link it seems geared towards pre-existing teams. What does an unaffiliated player do to apply?
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I feel the expectations set out for the players that want to join the academy are.. a bit much. Anyone who can give results in LANs or place consistently high in online tournaments could and would probably be picked up by a team equal of vVv or better. Why should players with that sort of potential be tied down to training wheel (C team) of vVv for 90 days to get.. a mousepad a and mouse? And again, why should players of this assumed caliber go through some 90 day program when they were probably better than the B team and perhaps members of the A team of vVv to begin with?
A nice academy attempt I suppose, but not for me. Good luck with it.
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On August 14 2011 07:26 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:07 RoboBob wrote:On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
If you do not attend any major LANs as defined in the OP then you are not representing vVv in anything important. When someone is looking for a sponsorship it always seems to be this question of "what will you do for me if i represent you?" If this is your thought process then you have likely never been sponsored by a real organization.
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum. Honestly I don't understand why you don't want discuss benefits. Because from your OP it sounds like a very bad deal. You're asking the players to attend weekly meetings, attend multiple LANs at their own expense, attend all clan wars (even if they're not participating), and all practice sessions. On top of that they must do well in monthly qualifiers or they get fired. And in exchange, all you're offering the players...is some free Steelseries gear? And even then, only after being on the team for 90 days and only when they attend a LAN. Honestly most people would be better off using that time to work a minimum wage job and buy the gear themselves. If you are in the Academy for 90days and then you choose to attend a LAN, if we feel you will perform well we will provide you with steelseries gear. If you then DO perform well, consideration will be made for benefits based on performance. If you DO NOT perform well, you keep the gear and are able to go to another LAN of your choosing to try again. I wont discuss benefits in a public forum because its not black and white. If i post "if you place in top 50 at MLG then we will reimburse your expenses" then that could mean gas money to one person or several hundred dollars to another. At the same time, the people you play in the bracket can have an effect as well and would be considered. This is a small team that will get a lot of attention. But there is no simple answer to what you will be given.
Well just about everyone who is in the leagues you are looking for will have their own gear made by SS or rival companies already, I mean just look at the number of bronzers who want the best mech boards to 'improve their skill'. I fail to see how getting a keyboard and a mouse out of a 90 day commitment PLUS what could be potentially travelling costs in excess of 1500 USD to be worth it...
Especially when you consider that you are not even a member of the team in any way...
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no one is gonna join this lol...
it's just not possible. you want ppl to commit VERY hard and spend thousands to attend lans. you can't do that without having a full time job. but you can't commit to sc2 like this with a full time job. my mind does not compute.
online tournaments are what should matter for situations like this. if you can prove yourself beating well know players online, then that's what will attract team's attention. going through online tournaments is the FEASIBLE option.
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This will edited soon lol
You gotta really think before you post something this big.
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I see a lot of people complaining about ridiculous non-issues, so I'm going to try to address a few points:
1. Players not getting compensated but expected to attend LANs out of pocket.
If you feel you are already skilled enough to be a sponsored player and should have your expenses mitigated for traveling to LANs, no one is stopping you from applying to be on the sponsored team.
2. Complexity's Academy as gold standard / vVv not doing well at MLG
Complexity did HORRIBLY at Anaheim. I haven't heard of any of their academy team doing well. With that as the basis, why does everyone in this thread consider Complexity's academy as the gold standard for Academy teams? It seems to me that Complexity wasted a lot of money on computers/travel stipends for players who didn't bring any recognition to their team. If anything, I would expect Complexity to discontinue their academy because it's such a bad deal for the organization.
3. What is the benefit for joining the Academy team?
Well obviously if you are already skilled enough to be a sponsored player you wouldn't join the Academy. If you are a skilled player who feels that you can perform better with some structured training and community support then you should join. Obviously you could do this without joining the vVv Academy team, but it will be much more difficult. For example many people find losing weight on their own to be difficult because no one is there to hold them accountable when they make poor choices. The Academy is that entity willing to hold you accountable to stay on a practice schedule and give you the experience needed to succeed at a high level.
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From a business point of view I 100% understand what you're trying to say. Online tournaments, while they get decent viewership and good prizepools for the players are a horrible proof to get sponsors to keep paying you. That's why MLG and other major offline events have been doing better, because the number of people has been dramatically increasing and so has online viewership.
Now, catch the flip side: you're asking for Masters/GM level players who are willing to participate in a monthly in-house tournament, a weekly meeting as well as attending clan wars even if the players won't be participating because your A-Team is doing all the work. Sure. But then you're saying that if those players don't make the effort to attend offline events, they can be dropped from the academy. If they perform not too great (and then again, that's purely subjective right?) in the monthly tournaments, they can get sacked as well. The level of commitment you're asking from them versus your ability to pull the plug whenever you feel like it is rather ridiculous.
You have to realize that Masters/GM level players generally don't have a lot of money. At least not the kind of money to attend let's say at least 3 events. At best, you'll be lucky to find some guys who are able to go to one MLG or NASL or whatever because it's close to their parents' house.
I honestly think you should reconsider your "online tournaments don't matter" policy. While they aren't as amazing for your sponsors, they'll at least show you the level of dedication of your academicians. While offline LAN events are certainly different (different environment, having to play away from home, dealing with jetlag if applies, etc.), you'll at least get some online appreciation. And who knows, with what the players win playing online, they might make enough to join offline events. Right?
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dude SwEEt, vVv is paying for traveling expenses, why does everybody expect vVv to be so stupid that they don't realize ppl who play almost 24/7 to get into GM don't have excess money laying around?
you people needs to stop patronizing vVv and get your facts straight, they will pay for everybody's traveling expenses
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On August 14 2011 08:35 rei wrote:
dude SwEEt, vVv is paying for traveling expenses, why does everybody expect vVv to be so stupid that they don't realize ppl who play almost 24/7 to get into GM don't have excess money laying around?
you people needs to stop patronizing vVv and get your facts straight, they will pay for everybody's traveling expenses
You are trolling so hard, you won't get your flights paid for guarantee it lol.
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On August 14 2011 08:35 rei wrote:
dude SwEEt, vVv is paying for traveling expenses, why does everybody expect vVv to be so stupid that they don't realize ppl who play almost 24/7 to get into GM don't have excess money laying around?
you people needs to stop patronizing vVv and get your facts straight, they will pay for everybody's traveling expenses
Do you know that on a first hand basis? And if you do, explain how vVvSweep hasn't mentionned it yet? Could it be because he doesn't discuss benefits, because they're tailored to each player's experience/loyalty/performance/time in the clan/whatever else is taken into account?
I'm not trying to come out as insulting, but you're really barking up the wrong tree. There's an amazing lack of explanation about this project and it seems like they're just expecting people to commit and THEN be told what's what
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On August 14 2011 08:35 rei wrote:
dude SwEEt, vVv is paying for traveling expenses, why does everybody expect vVv to be so stupid that they don't realize ppl who play almost 24/7 to get into GM don't have excess money laying around?
you people needs to stop patronizing vVv and get your facts straight, they will pay for everybody's traveling expenses
On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
If you cannot attend major LANs (no matter what the reason) then I can settle this by saying the vVv Academy is not for you. If you CAN attend major LANs and you perform well, then there will be support from vVv. vVv-gaming is a very large organization and while strict on what we expect, our rewards are always on par with your performance.
I want you to think about the process here... If a company pays your entire travel expenses (several hundred dollars) to attend a LAN, then you are expected to produce a fan base worth those several hundred dollars. If you aren't able to keep up with your part of the deal then you are fooling yourself to think a sponsor will keep you..
Uhhhh.... doesn't sound like they're paying for anything travel related.
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On August 14 2011 08:27 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:
From a business point of view I 100% understand what you're trying to say. Online tournaments, while they get decent viewership and good prizepools for the players are a horrible proof to get sponsors to keep paying you. That's why MLG and other major offline events have been doing better, because the number of people has been dramatically increasing and so has online viewership.
Now, catch the flip side: you're asking for Masters/GM level players who are willing to participate in a monthly in-house tournament, a weekly meeting as well as attending clan wars even if the players won't be participating because your A-Team is doing all the work. Sure. But then you're saying that if those players don't make the effort to attend offline events, they can be dropped from the academy. If they perform not too great (and then again, that's purely subjective right?) in the monthly tournaments, they can get sacked as well. The level of commitment you're asking from them versus your ability to pull the plug whenever you feel like it is rather ridiculous.
You have to realize that Masters/GM level players generally don't have a lot of money. At least not the kind of money to attend let's say at least 3 events. At best, you'll be lucky to find some guys who are able to go to one MLG or NASL or whatever because it's close to their parents' house.
I honestly think you should reconsider your "online tournaments don't matter" policy. While they aren't as amazing for your sponsors, they'll at least show you the level of dedication of your academicians. While offline LAN events are certainly different (different environment, having to play away from home, dealing with jetlag if applies, etc.), you'll at least get some online appreciation. And who knows, with what the players win playing online, they might make enough to join offline events. Right?
I don't think you do 100% understand, and let me explain why. Please explain for me why vVv needs an Academy team? Besides Complexity, no other major gaming organization in NA has one. So what benefit does vVv gain from having an Academy team? Keep in mind that *potential talent* does not impress sponsors, actual results do.
On the other hand, players willing to join the Academy gain a lot of benefits. If they are potential talent they can develop that talent and gain recognition from an organization that sponsors players who perform well. Players have an entire community to share the expenses of traveling and hotels etc. Players get mentoring and experience learning how to work with sponsors and connections to sponsors who would never look at them twice without the connection to vVv.
Sure it's potentially competitive and you will have to pay out of pocket to attend MLGs, but the community will share expenses and it doesn't come anywhere near thousands of dollars as some people in this thread have been suggesting.
I think it's very generous of vVv to offer a training ground for people seriously interested in improving their talent. I hope that the vocal minority in this thread who feel that organizations should:
1. Spend thousands of dollars for unknown players to provide no results,
2. Organizations (and players) should be satisfied with Academy teams that never go anywhere or accomplish anything
Is just a vocal minority that doesn't represent the majority of the SC2 community.
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On August 14 2011 08:56 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 08:27 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:
From a business point of view I 100% understand what you're trying to say. Online tournaments, while they get decent viewership and good prizepools for the players are a horrible proof to get sponsors to keep paying you. That's why MLG and other major offline events have been doing better, because the number of people has been dramatically increasing and so has online viewership.
Now, catch the flip side: you're asking for Masters/GM level players who are willing to participate in a monthly in-house tournament, a weekly meeting as well as attending clan wars even if the players won't be participating because your A-Team is doing all the work. Sure. But then you're saying that if those players don't make the effort to attend offline events, they can be dropped from the academy. If they perform not too great (and then again, that's purely subjective right?) in the monthly tournaments, they can get sacked as well. The level of commitment you're asking from them versus your ability to pull the plug whenever you feel like it is rather ridiculous.
You have to realize that Masters/GM level players generally don't have a lot of money. At least not the kind of money to attend let's say at least 3 events. At best, you'll be lucky to find some guys who are able to go to one MLG or NASL or whatever because it's close to their parents' house.
I honestly think you should reconsider your "online tournaments don't matter" policy. While they aren't as amazing for your sponsors, they'll at least show you the level of dedication of your academicians. While offline LAN events are certainly different (different environment, having to play away from home, dealing with jetlag if applies, etc.), you'll at least get some online appreciation. And who knows, with what the players win playing online, they might make enough to join offline events. Right? I don't think you do 100% understand, and let me explain why. Please explain for me why vVv needs an Academy team? Besides Complexity, no other major gaming organization in NA has one. So what benefit does vVv gain from having an Academy team? Keep in mind that *potential talent* does not impress sponsors, actual results do. On the other hand, players willing to join the Academy gain a lot of benefits. If they are potential talent they can develop that talent and gain recognition from an organization that sponsors players who perform well. Players have an entire community to share the expenses of traveling and hotels etc. Players get mentoring and experience learning how to work with sponsors and connections to sponsors who would never look at them twice without the connection to vVv. Sure it's potentially competitive and you will have to pay out of pocket to attend MLGs, but the community will share expenses and it doesn't come anywhere near thousands of dollars as some people in this thread have been suggesting. I think it's very generous of vVv to offer a training ground for people seriously interested in improving their talent. I hope that the vocal minority in this thread who feel that organizations should: 1. Spend thousands of dollars for unknown players to provide no results, 2. Organizations (and players) should be satisfied with Academy teams that never go anywhere or accomplish anything Is just a vocal minority that doesn't represent the majority of the SC2 community.
They have an academy team as a way to foster talent and eventually add to their own team. It's like the NBA d-league or minor league baseball teams.
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On August 14 2011 08:23 SugarBear wrote:
I see a lot of people complaining about ridiculous non-issues, so I'm going to try to address a few points:
1. Players not getting compensated but expected to attend LANs out of pocket.
If you feel you are already skilled enough to be a sponsored player and should have your expenses mitigated for traveling to LANs, no one is stopping you from applying to be on the sponsored team.
2. Complexity's Academy as gold standard / vVv not doing well at MLG
Complexity did HORRIBLY at Anaheim. I haven't heard of any of their academy team doing well. With that as the basis, why does everyone in this thread consider Complexity's academy as the gold standard for Academy teams? It seems to me that Complexity wasted a lot of money on computers/travel stipends for players who didn't bring any recognition to their team. If anything, I would expect Complexity to discontinue their academy because it's such a bad deal for the organization.
3. What is the benefit for joining the Academy team?
Well obviously if you are already skilled enough to be a sponsored player you wouldn't join the Academy. If you are a skilled player who feels that you can perform better with some structured training and community support then you should join. Obviously you could do this without joining the vVv Academy team, but it will be much more difficult. For example many people find losing weight on their own to be difficult because no one is there to hold them accountable when they make poor choices. The Academy is that entity willing to hold you accountable to stay on a practice schedule and give you the experience needed to succeed at a high level.
Your point #1 is what everyone is complaining about. If someone is already tearing up GM league and online tournaments, they will get picked up by a team and will get sponsored and get their travel expenses paid for. Hence there would be zero reason to join this academy.
This academy is basically for high-mid master level players who want to be able to go pro to be able to get the practice partners/practice schedule to be able to do that, yet they are somehow expected to pay thousands of dollars to be able to stay in said academy or they get kicked, even if they are improving.
Not only that, there is about a zero percent chance that they would even make it out of the open bracket of any LANs they went too anyway because of all the koreans that are coming to the US nowadays. It seems ridiculous to spend $1000 to go to MLG only to draw MKP in the first round.
Edit: On August 14 2011 08:59 ketomai wrote:They have an academy team as a way to foster talent and eventually add to their own team. It's like the NBA d-league or minor league baseball teams.
Except in the D-league and minor leagues players still have a salary. Its not a lot but at least it's something. Terrible analogy.
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I don't know why people are complaining so much about the vVv Academy.
Progaming is, in my opinion, a VERY difficult field to have as your career. It's kind of like the music industry: only a select few make it and it takes a ton of hard work and traveling and such.
To me, what vVv is doing is providing a means for a player to take the first steps to becoming a progamer. If you're seriously thinking about pursing this as a career and to get money from it, you should already be planning on attending most of the tournaments that they're suggesting you go to, and if you were to go on your own then you'd be paying the expenses yourself anyways.
I read it as a fantastic opportunity for a player who's trying to break through to get some good training, and to know that at least someone is watching them as they perform at top-tier events.
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Sugarbear. I can assure you we will not be discontinuing our Academy. We may never find the next up and coming talent. That is not why we do this. We do this to give back to the community. Give the community something to watch and most importantly give unnoticed players a chance to attend a major event.
At the end of the day we had three Academy players participate in Anaheim and though none of them made it incredibly deep we are proud of the effort they put forward and believe it or not our sponsors LOVE our academy and love the concept and I assure you it is not because they expect these up and comers to go out and win.
I will not speak to the specifics of the vVv Academy but if these two Academies are what I have to compare against each other then I would absolutely call the compLexity Academy the gold standard.
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On August 14 2011 07:39 Moa wrote:
That you are willing to converse so much with the community about the academy is commendable. I still would like to see what the mechanic for actually joining the real roster is. That is a big deal and it hasn't been addressed.
Bad habit of mine. I hate to not answer peoples questions. I am kind of out numbered here though! lol. The short answer to your question is when you compete at LANs at or above their level. Obviously its hard to answer the question so simply, but hopefully that clears up the matter of it being an option. Our roster is not full.
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Are you guys even sponsoring your players with gear? It sounds a bit fishy to me, compared to the complexity academy, which was great while I was in it. Seems like "show up and do good with our tag and we might keep you".
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This is like NASL.
Cool idea bogged down in terrible rules and restrictions that make sense to no one but the people that made them. I <3 vVv but this is pretty silly.
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On August 14 2011 07:10 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
the fact of the matter is if you can afford to go to LANs where you can show off your skill and place decently you will get noticed by a big organization. you do not need to be apart of this academy in order to get sponsored/noticed like you are trying to lead people to believe. And if someone can afford to go to major LANS and they are currently with a team that gives them nothing I wouldnt represent them. I wouldnt want potential sponsors that look at me to think "hes taken". I would want to get all the offers I could and being apart of vVv would deter sponsors that are willing to pay travel expenses away.
This is simply ignorance. Do NFL players not join a team because they don't want people to think "hes taken"? This would take far too much time to explain the complexities of inter organizational arrangements and discussions.
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ok, let's think about this with logic,
1) vVv wants a good team a group of smart players, smart enough to get into GrandMasters, and have a chance in taking a game off the big names out there.
2) "vVv-gaming is a very large organization." meaning they are well financed.
3) people who are smart enough to get in to grand masters are smart enough to realize vVv is "a very large organization" and that would have no problem paying for their basic traveling expenses.
Therefore, 4) it makes no common senses for vVv to expect someone smart enough to get good at starcraft but not smart enough to realize their expenses can easily be paid by a sponsor that they represents.
5) vVv is good in nature, and will not take advantage of people in order to promote their logo.
6) base on premise 1,2,3,4,5, vVv will pay for the expenses of their recruits who puts in hard works and train together in order to get better together, because vVv is good in nature, and will not attempt to insult their recruits' intelligence by taking advantage of smart people who are smart enough to get into Grand master in order to promote their logo for free.
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The difference in atttude between vVv and coL is this:
vVv: We won't be paying anything unless you proven you can get good results at major LANs.
coL: We are providing resources in the hope that some of you will become good enough to get results at LANs.
I think they are both reasonable positions, it's just that 'Academy' implies you are investing in future talent. That involves taking a risk and investing some time and money first, which vVv is not doing at all.
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On August 14 2011 09:16 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:10 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
the fact of the matter is if you can afford to go to LANs where you can show off your skill and place decently you will get noticed by a big organization. you do not need to be apart of this academy in order to get sponsored/noticed like you are trying to lead people to believe. And if someone can afford to go to major LANS and they are currently with a team that gives them nothing I wouldnt represent them. I wouldnt want potential sponsors that look at me to think "hes taken". I would want to get all the offers I could and being apart of vVv would deter sponsors that are willing to pay travel expenses away. This is simply ignorance. Do NFL players not join a team because they don't want people to think "hes taken"? This would take far too much time to explain the complexities of inter organizational arrangements and discussions.
Yea I'm pretty sure and Puma/EG that MANY talent scouts will not be contacting players with a team.
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On August 14 2011 07:12 Nomad123 wrote:
the whole "need to go to major LAN or you're out" thing is the problem, not the $$ needed to get academy members there.
i think vVv is in the wrong here though, it's like telling these guys to shell out money first by going to these LAN events, and if companies want to sponsor these guys cause they did well, they'll sponsor them through vVv and "keep" them in vVv academy, all the while vVv investing nothing on the players (except for maybe practice sessions, which could be done by dedicated group of players anyway).
TLDR: i think vVv is "recruiting" players to get $$ with no real "investment" on their part.
Please don't put something in quotes that isn't a quote. You need to go to a LAN to be evaluated for sponsorship. If you do not attend LANs and we have applicants that are willing to attend lans then a decision MAY be made to drop you. Lets say you maintain your position in the Academy for 90days, feel your ready to attend a LAN and try to become sponsored... Okay, you get 1-2hundred dollars in equipment. How full of yourself are you to think that if you HAVEN'T attended any lans that you are worth that investment? You will get what you earn.
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On August 14 2011 09:11 coljbass wrote:
Sugarbear. I can assure you we will not be discontinuing our Academy. We may never find the next up and coming talent. That is not why we do this. We do this to give back to the community. Give the community something to watch and most importantly give unnoticed players a chance to attend a major event.
At the end of the day we had three Academy players participate in Anaheim and though none of them made it incredibly deep we are proud of the effort they put forward and believe it or not our sponsors LOVE our academy and love the concept and I assure you it is not because they expect these up and comers to go out and win.
I will not speak to the specifics of the vVv Academy but if these two Academies are what I have to compare against each other then I would absolutely call the compLexity Academy the gold standard.
If that is the case then I wish Complexity and your Academy the best, and hope that model is sustainable for a long time to come!
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On August 14 2011 07:12 KeyHunt wrote:
I definitely think you guys are looking on this the wrong way. What vVv is offering is simply a chance for players who are at a high level of skill, but have not broken into the top tier yet or haven't been noticed..they are offering them a home. They're saying look, you should be doing all these things like practicing, tournaments, streaming, etc already to promote yourself so why not do it with vVv where you have the chance to make a little money, get some free gear and even have a chance to become a sponsored player once they believe you're ready.
This opportunity is not for the people who will NEVER attend an event on their own. Very few people got sponsored before they attended a single event. Sometimes, if you believe in something you have to just go for it and put yourself out there a bit. If you are just having fun, and do not wish to become a better player, or practice, or play in matches..the opportunity is not for you. However, if you want to do all those things I would think this opportunity would be perfect for you. You get better practice, more established team, team experience that you might not get on your own, information from a respectable organization, maybe some gear, all that for just a little bit of your time and effort.
Even if you don't want to be apart of it, show a little respect for the people that do please.
This. Thank you KeyHunt.
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On August 14 2011 09:20 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:12 Nomad123 wrote:
the whole "need to go to major LAN or you're out" thing is the problem, not the $$ needed to get academy members there.
i think vVv is in the wrong here though, it's like telling these guys to shell out money first by going to these LAN events, and if companies want to sponsor these guys cause they did well, they'll sponsor them through vVv and "keep" them in vVv academy, all the while vVv investing nothing on the players (except for maybe practice sessions, which could be done by dedicated group of players anyway).
TLDR: i think vVv is "recruiting" players to get $$ with no real "investment" on their part. Please don't put something in quotes that isn't a quote. You need to go to a LAN to be evaluated for sponsorship. If you do not attend LANs and we have applicants that are willing to attend lans then a decision MAY be made to drop you. Lets say you maintain your position in the Academy for 90days, feel your ready to attend a LAN and try to become sponsored... Okay, you get 1-2hundred dollars in equipment. How full of yourself are you to think that if you HAVEN'T attended any lans that you are worth that investment? You will get what you earn.
That is vVv's responsibility to make sure their guys are ready.
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I still wanna hear what you consider "doing well at a LAN". I realize that its dependent on stuff like bracket draws, but could you maybe list a couple scenarios that you would look upon favorably and a couple that you wouldn't. Could they also not be obvious answers like "if you make the championship pool at MLG, you're in". I'm just trying to get a sense of what kind of performance is expected of your students.
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On August 14 2011 07:15 Nomad123 wrote:
@keyhunt - apparently, you missed the whole point of the issue being raised by people here (ie, about players being asked to shell out their own money to get to LAN and do well just to stay in vVv academy)
"This opportunity is not for the people who will NEVER attend an event on their own. Very few people got sponsored before they attended a single event. Sometimes, if you believe in something you have to just go for it and put yourself out there a bit." (from KeyHunts post)
I would like to ask you why I should shell out my own money to send you to a LAN prior to you doing something for me? Do you go to work and get paid before the work week? no, you get paid AFTER your have performed. It is silly to expect otherwise.
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On August 14 2011 09:20 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:12 Nomad123 wrote:
the whole "need to go to major LAN or you're out" thing is the problem, not the $$ needed to get academy members there.
i think vVv is in the wrong here though, it's like telling these guys to shell out money first by going to these LAN events, and if companies want to sponsor these guys cause they did well, they'll sponsor them through vVv and "keep" them in vVv academy, all the while vVv investing nothing on the players (except for maybe practice sessions, which could be done by dedicated group of players anyway).
TLDR: i think vVv is "recruiting" players to get $$ with no real "investment" on their part. Please don't put something in quotes that isn't a quote. You need to go to a LAN to be evaluated for sponsorship. If you do not attend LANs and we have applicants that are willing to attend lans then a decision MAY be made to drop you. Lets say you maintain your position in the Academy for 90days, feel your ready to attend a LAN and try to become sponsored... Okay, you get 1-2hundred dollars in equipment. How full of yourself are you to think that if you HAVEN'T attended any lans that you are worth that investment? You will get what you earn.
Furthermore I think Nomad123's logic is terribly flawed. First players are not good enough to become sponsored, but then they are saying we get money from them? How do we get money from having noname players on our team? No sponsor is going to pay for us to send players with no recognition who won't get results to LAN events.
Either the players are good enough to become sponsored and will be compensated fairly, or they are not and vVv will not receive money from having them. If you are concerned about vVv's willingness to sponsor players who get results, then look no further than vVvReo who represented vVv playing MK9 at EVO and came in second. He is now one of our fully sponsored players.
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The bottom line is that this has good intentions but sadly I cannot see this working. Too many other organizations can simply easily undercut this for a player who has potential to win a LAN event. There are many "sponsored" teams out there with way less requirements and will give the player more return for their time invested. The only reason why this business model could even remotely work is if their is someone who is a large enough fan boy for vVv that it is their pure goal to join. This would work for a team like Liquid or EG but for vVv, sadly I cannot see this coming to fruition.
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As someone who decides who makes the A team on vVv. Let me simply say this. I want to see results at LAN. If you take a limb and play for vVv without yet being sponsored (meaning you are just a community member or a part of our academy) that will help your chances of being brought onto my A team.
I understand there are players that can not travel to show that they have the skill to take games off the top players. But I am sorry, sponsors don't care about your online wins. If you are going to break into the game at this point, LAN is the proving ground.
The academy is offering players wanting to break into the scene a chance to really be looked at. Going to LANs is a part of being looked at.
If you have any more questions about what the A team is looking to get from our own Academy team, feel free to pm me. I open my inbox to you, and I can try to explain what we are looking from from the Academy.
Thanks,
Noxie
vVv Sc2 Asst. Manager
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What is VvV? nvr heard of it.
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On August 14 2011 09:11 coljbass wrote:
Sugarbear. I can assure you we will not be discontinuing our Academy. We may never find the next up and coming talent. That is not why we do this. We do this to give back to the community. Give the community something to watch and most importantly give unnoticed players a chance to attend a major event.
At the end of the day we had three Academy players participate in Anaheim and though none of them made it incredibly deep we are proud of the effort they put forward and believe it or not our sponsors LOVE our academy and love the concept and I assure you it is not because they expect these up and comers to go out and win.
I will not speak to the specifics of the vVv Academy but if these two Academies are what I have to compare against each other then I would absolutely call the compLexity Academy the gold standard.
I had a lot of respect for you while reading this post until I got to the end. I can assure you that you know more about your academy then ours. It would be silly to think that you would not feel your system was great.
I love that you are investing in players to try and become professional players. That is a very noble act. That is not what we are attempting with our Academy. We invest thousands of dollars and hours into players across multiple platforms and have decided to go a different route with our SC2 Academy. It is an environment and atmosphere to guide you to that professional level.
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On August 14 2011 09:44 Dragom wrote:
What is VvV? nvr heard of it. ... it's a team?
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I never really liked vVv as a company from the start, but I do love most of the people. Good luck to you guys, hope it goes well.
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On August 14 2011 09:17 rei wrote:
ok, let's think about this with logic,
1) vVv wants a good team a group of smart players, smart enough to get into GrandMasters, and have a chance in taking a game off the big names out there.
2) "vVv-gaming is a very large organization." meaning they are well financed.
3) people who are smart enough to get in to grand masters are smart enough to realize vVv is "a very large organization" and that would have no problem paying for their basic traveling expenses.
Therefore, 4) it makes no common senses for vVv to expect someone smart enough to get good at starcraft but not smart enough to realize their expenses can easily be paid by a sponsor that they represents.
5) vVv is good in nature, and will not take advantage of people in order to promote their logo.
6) base on premise 1,2,3,4,5, vVv will pay for the expenses of their recruits who puts in hard works and train together in order to get better together, because vVv is good in nature, and will not attempt to insult their recruits' intelligence by taking advantage of smart people who are smart enough to get into Grand master in order to promote their logo for free.
1) We are not expecting academy members to take games off "big names".
2) I will not discuss finances, but unless you have ever owned your own business it would be pointless to even try.
3) you are obviously not one of those people. You think that because company X sells $500,000 worth of product in a month that they are rich... Chances are they would be lucky to bring in $5,000 a month. Go ask Sundance how much profit hes pulling in after selling thousands and thousands of tickets to MLGs. (you don't need to, ill answer it, hes still in debt)
4) see 3
5) Thank you. Our logo is spread out enough, we don't need to try and use people for free advertising.
6) Did you really need 2,3,4,5,6 to say the same thing? If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult about what it is like to own a business so you can come across a little more intelligent. As it stands you stated 5 times that you know nothing about business.
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On August 14 2011 06:18 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
ok so what we thought originally was true. you do not pay LAN fees but expect them to pay their way to go there and do well in them. for a "very large organization" i have to say thats pretty sad you cant pay for at least one of your academy members... These kind of comments really make me sad. If you can prove that you deserve a sponsorship then you will be sponsored. I will not make a blanket statement on guaranteed benefits as they are based on the individuals performance.
If you cant sponsor your "up and comers", this academy should not really exist.
You should be more worried about your players having results in ONLINE tournaments.
Here how you should approach this academy, without money sponsorship
-Make them join X tournaments a week(there are like 5 everyday atleast)
-Make sure they actually do decently(no rewards for trying, only success)
-Make them play like coL does for who gets to go to MLG(even if its only 1 spot)
Your approach of "hey were a mediocre NA team, but since youre nobody we will extort you"
is really
really
not thought out
Also how do you expect to find the best players when they have to work a job also to pay for all this.
This entire thread is filled with such rediculousness.
This is almost as bad as a pyramid scheme, no wait...
THIS IS a pyramid scheme.
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On August 14 2011 09:51 BobbysBack wrote:
I never really liked vVv as a company from the start, but I do love most of the people. Good luck to you guys, hope it goes well.
There have been several people with this type of comment and I want to thank all of you. There has been lots of posts of people raging. I respect your opinion of our company and will never tell someone they are wrong for not agreeing with what we are and what we do. I am glad you like our members and am glad you are respectful enough to simply state that you do not agree but wish us luck.
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On August 14 2011 09:56 vVvSweep wrote:
2) I will not discuss finances, but unless you have ever owned your own business it would be pointless to even try.
6) Did you really need 2,3,4,5,6 to say the same thing? If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult about what it is like to own a business so you can come across a little more intelligent. As it stands you stated 5 times that you know nothing about business.
Just for the record on the PR side of things (as I do PR and have done PR), repeatedly telling users they know nothing and you are too smart to explain it to them is not a good thing.
Instead you break it down and help them see your side.
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@ vVvSweep
wow, I have been trying to defend you with every one of my post in this thread, now i feel like a dumb ass for saying all the unintelligent things when I was trying to help you guys out.
you really taught me a lot about being adult, and what it means to be smart, thank you so much on pointing out my mistakes. and you are right that I know nothing about owning a business, and i am no way consider myself an intelligent person, in fact I consider myself to be very stupid trying to be less stupid by getting help from others who are more intelligent than I am, such as yourself.
Again thank you for replying to me, i never thought someone as stupid as I am is actually worthy of the time you spend in typing out 6 paragraph of text trying to enlighten me.
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On August 14 2011 09:57 Polskaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:18 vVvSweep wrote:On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
ok so what we thought originally was true. you do not pay LAN fees but expect them to pay their way to go there and do well in them. for a "very large organization" i have to say thats pretty sad you cant pay for at least one of your academy members... These kind of comments really make me sad. If you can prove that you deserve a sponsorship then you will be sponsored. I will not make a blanket statement on guaranteed benefits as they are based on the individuals performance. If you cant sponsor your "up and comers", this academy should not really exist. You should be more worried about your players having results in ONLINE tournaments. Here how you should approach this academy, without money sponsorship -Make them join X tournaments a week(there are like 5 everyday atleast) -Make sure they actually do decently(no rewards for trying, only success) -Make them play like coL does for who gets to go to MLG(even if its only 1 spot) Your approach of "hey were a mediocre NA team, but since youre nobody we will extort you" is really really not thought out Also how do you expect to find the best players when they have to work a job also to pay for all this. This entire thread is filled with such rediculousness. This is almost as bad as a pyramid scheme.
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to + Show Spoiler + on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight!
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IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever.
On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight!
I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do.
But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys.
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Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
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On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:57 Polskaa wrote:On August 14 2011 06:18 vVvSweep wrote:On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
ok so what we thought originally was true. you do not pay LAN fees but expect them to pay their way to go there and do well in them. for a "very large organization" i have to say thats pretty sad you cant pay for at least one of your academy members... These kind of comments really make me sad. If you can prove that you deserve a sponsorship then you will be sponsored. I will not make a blanket statement on guaranteed benefits as they are based on the individuals performance. If you cant sponsor your "up and comers", this academy should not really exist. You should be more worried about your players having results in ONLINE tournaments. Here how you should approach this academy, without money sponsorship -Make them join X tournaments a week(there are like 5 everyday atleast) -Make sure they actually do decently(no rewards for trying, only success) -Make them play like coL does for who gets to go to MLG(even if its only 1 spot) Your approach of "hey were a mediocre NA team, but since youre nobody we will extort you" is really really not thought out Also how do you expect to find the best players when they have to work a job also to pay for all this. This entire thread is filled with such rediculousness. This is almost as bad as a pyramid scheme. If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players. That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come. So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight!
i do PR for my team to,
and if my management were to come up with idea
I'd totally make them rethink it.
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On August 14 2011 09:57 Polskaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:18 vVvSweep wrote:On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
ok so what we thought originally was true. you do not pay LAN fees but expect them to pay their way to go there and do well in them. for a "very large organization" i have to say thats pretty sad you cant pay for at least one of your academy members... These kind of comments really make me sad. If you can prove that you deserve a sponsorship then you will be sponsored. I will not make a blanket statement on guaranteed benefits as they are based on the individuals performance. If you cant sponsor your "up and comers", this academy should not really exist. You should be more worried about your players having results in ONLINE tournaments. Here how you should approach this academy, without money sponsorship -Make them join X tournaments a week(there are like 5 everyday atleast) -Make sure they actually do decently(no rewards for trying, only success) -Make them play like coL does for who gets to go to MLG(even if its only 1 spot)
Thanks for the advice and good look running your own successful gaming organization!
Your approach of "hey were a mediocre NA team, but since youre nobody we will extort you"
is really
really
not thought out
Also how do you expect to find the best players when they have to work a job also to pay for all this.
This entire thread is filled with such rediculousness.
This is almost as bad as a pyramid scheme, no wait...
THIS IS a pyramid scheme.
Please explain how we are exploiting anyone in any way? I would love to know. If players want a chance to be sponsored they will have to attend a LAN to prove they can perform. It's as simple as that. In no way does vVv get money from these players from attending the LAN (unless they do well, in which case we will sponsor them). So no one is being exploited.
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On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
really, there are lots of players who do good in online tournaments and get paid, but they also get sent to lans as well. Sheth is a good example of this, he's getting paid but hasn't done that well at lans+ Show Spoiler +.
If it were only by lans then a lot of people getting paid right now would not be getting paid or be on sponsored teams as you are saying (I count that as being paid being sent to events).
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On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item
"classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end
I think we have made the the connection here.
I wont say it
But I will leave it to the people.
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You should probably spoiler those Blizz invitational results.
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On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever.
I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter.
Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys.
To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to.
If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo...
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On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
Actually, in most restaurants that aren't fast-food places, you eat first, then pay.
I must say that, while I don't necessarily agree with the decision to not pay student's expenses, I understand where they're coming from. I just think that, if you're going to take this stance, basing your decisions solely off of LAN performance (because that's what it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong) may not be the best approach to take.
Edit: I guess this is your method to weed out the people who aren't truly serious about going pro, because only they would actually be wiling to do this. I just happen to think that, even for them, it's a little too much risk compared to the reward.
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On August 14 2011 10:18 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever. I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter. Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys. To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to. If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo...
Correct me if I'm wrong but nerchio hasn't actually been to lans, he's been playing online (like in IPL) And sheth has been to 0 LANs prior to joining FXO, so those 2 DID go off online results, did they not? Again I could be wrong here.
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On August 14 2011 10:13 Polskaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first. The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item "classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end I think we have made the the connection here. I wont say it But I will leave it to the people.
Ruth's Chris made $357.6 million in 2010
McDonald's made $6.3 billion
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On August 14 2011 10:22 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:18 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever. I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter. On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys. To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to. If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo... Correct me if I'm wrong but nerchio hasn't actually been to lans, he's been playing online (like in IPL) And sheth has been to 0 LANs prior to joining FXO, so those 2 DID go off online results, did they not? Again I could be wrong here.
To be honest I've never heard of Nerchio (at least not much) so I was going more based on Sheth's performance lately.
As far as Nerchio I have no idea who he is or how he is doing.
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On August 14 2011 10:18 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever. I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter. Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys. To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to. If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo...
1) Nericho nor Sheth participated in ANY LANs before they were acquired by a team actually.
2) You clearly underestimate the power of advertising. Simply having a vVv tag next to my name is enough for some dude standing behind me at MLG to go "Hey who's vVv? Are they a good team? Where can i find out more about them?" etc and then you have someone new that will head to your website and perhaps become a fan, buy your merchandise, etc.
It is quite clear that you are a conservative organization though I'll grant you that.
Perhaps the reason I'm being so fierce about this is because I was extremely exicted about this and wanted to join until I saw that you'd be forcing me to pay for myself to go to LANs that I cannot afford simply to stay on the team.
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On August 14 2011 09:16 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 07:10 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
the fact of the matter is if you can afford to go to LANs where you can show off your skill and place decently you will get noticed by a big organization. you do not need to be apart of this academy in order to get sponsored/noticed like you are trying to lead people to believe. And if someone can afford to go to major LANS and they are currently with a team that gives them nothing I wouldnt represent them. I wouldnt want potential sponsors that look at me to think "hes taken". I would want to get all the offers I could and being apart of vVv would deter sponsors that are willing to pay travel expenses away. This is simply ignorance. Do NFL players not join a team because they don't want people to think "hes taken"? This would take far too much time to explain the complexities of inter organizational arrangements and discussions.
I know a little more about how it works than you think 
and dont try to compare this academy idea to the nfl it has absolutely nothing in common...you're just way in over your head and trying to look for an escape.
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On August 14 2011 10:30 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:13 Polskaa wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first. The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item "classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end I think we have made the the connection here. I wont say it But I will leave it to the people. Ruth's Chris made $357.6 million in 2010 McDonald's made $6.3 billion
Ruth's Chris: 130 stores
McDonald's: 32,000+ stores
Ruth's Christ profit per store: $2.75 Million
McDonald's profit per store: ~ $197,000
Would you like some fries with that?
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On August 14 2011 10:30 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:13 Polskaa wrote:On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first. The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item "classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end I think we have made the the connection here. I wont say it But I will leave it to the people. Ruth's Chris made $357.6 million in 2010 McDonald's made $6.3 billion
I like how you proved my point.
Why does McD make so much money.
People are poor, why pay $13 in our current economy when for a burger
when you can get maybe as filled for $2
Maybe some people enjoy saving money over quality
Not me though
I demand the best and I will pay that amount for the best.
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you want players to attend a major on-site tourney (i dont' like to say lan b/c there is no lan) or two to prove that they are worthy, but you don't expect them to take any games off big name players. which is basically saying, we don't expect anyone to get out of the open brackets or even deep into the open bracket.
if you don't expect success against the big names, why do you choose to ignore online tourneys that have few big names and are mostly filled with players trying to prove they have what it takes? from reading this thread i've gotten the feeling that VVV is trying to recruit lower tier pros, that can't beat premiere pros, but you still want them to enter all the premiere tournaments and lose, instead of entering tourneys you have a chance of winning and going from there.
it's like you're recruiting junior varsity high school football players for the NFL. maybe 1 in a million will have what it takes right away, but most need to play some varsity, and college ball before their ready for the pros.
Good luck with it. hope to see VVV in the future playing good games.
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I do wish this the best of luck and the best of luck to the players who do join. As a player myself though, I do hope you realize how difficult it will be for a player to send themselves to MLGs.
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On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
Sounds fishy
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On August 14 2011 10:39 Jawmare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum. Sounds fishy
Nah that's standard practice for competitive e-sports right now. Unlike in sports such as football, teams do not generally divulge contract details outside of their organizations
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The whole deal here is just out of wack. The point Academies should have is to develop talent, not get results and we'll sponsor you. You're basically asking for people to join your team. If you want to run an "academy" it shouldn't be about results right away, it should be about playing high level players online consistently to get better and to a pro level skill to get those results, not just go to LANs, wear our tag, and get good results, then we'll sponsor you.
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I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys.
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On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys.
You said it before I could
I believe if a players is good enough to go to MLG pay themselves and go far enough
theyll get recogonized by top teams.
Seems like vVv is looking for an easy answer to start showing results at major tournaments.
Here is what an up and comer (hopefully) sees
"hey were kinda a good team but not really
umm you can join our team but we wont give you anything really
unless you do well! sounds good right you get to wear our tshirt.
We wont pay for you or give you any of our sponsored items
if you win online tournaments we wont recoginze you(i dont remember the last time vVv won a online tournament of any caliber)
Well give you training partners, but you kinda have to fight for your spot every month
umm gl hf!"
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On August 14 2011 10:32 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:22 hunts wrote:On August 14 2011 10:18 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever. I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter. On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys. To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to. If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo... Correct me if I'm wrong but nerchio hasn't actually been to lans, he's been playing online (like in IPL) And sheth has been to 0 LANs prior to joining FXO, so those 2 DID go off online results, did they not? Again I could be wrong here. To be honest I've never heard of Nerchio (at least not much) so I was going more based on Sheth's performance lately. As far as Nerchio I have no idea who he is or how he is doing.
Saddest thing I have read in the whole thread.
Apart from that, I dont get what everybody gets riled u about.
If you dont like the deal, dont join.
If others do like it and join, how is it your business?
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On August 14 2011 10:53 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:32 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 10:22 hunts wrote:On August 14 2011 10:18 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever. I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter. On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys. To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to. If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo... Correct me if I'm wrong but nerchio hasn't actually been to lans, he's been playing online (like in IPL) And sheth has been to 0 LANs prior to joining FXO, so those 2 DID go off online results, did they not? Again I could be wrong here. To be honest I've never heard of Nerchio (at least not much) so I was going more based on Sheth's performance lately. As far as Nerchio I have no idea who he is or how he is doing. Saddest thing I have read in the whole thread. Apart from that, I dont get what everybody gets riled u about. If you dont like the deal, dont join. If others do like it and join, how is it your business?
Yeah I kind of have to agree. Nerchio who has a huge name for himself in like EU now, doing amazingly well in the IPL, only has results in online tournaments but so many people know about him, which is good for advertising for sponsors.
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On August 14 2011 10:32 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:18 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever. I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter. On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys. To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to. If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo... 1) Nericho nor Sheth participated in ANY LANs before they were acquired by a team actually. 2) You clearly underestimate the power of advertising. Simply having a vVv tag next to my name is enough for some dude standing behind me at MLG to go "Hey who's vVv? Are they a good team? Where can i find out more about them?" etc and then you have someone new that will head to your website and perhaps become a fan, buy your merchandise, etc. It is quite clear that you are a conservative organization though I'll grant you that. Perhaps the reason I'm being so fierce about this is because I was extremely exicted about this and wanted to join until I saw that you'd be forcing me to pay for myself to go to LANs that I cannot afford simply to stay on the team.
1. I didn't say they attended/performed at LANs BEFORE they were picked up, I said that their performance (at least Sheth's) is highly likely a reason for his continued sponsorship.
2. We are one of (if not THE) largest gaming communities in north America. We easily have upwards of 20+ members wearing the vVv logo attending every MLG (most of them paying out of pocket to attend, by the way), not counting sponsored players. We have no need for additional bodies wearing out logo.
I"m sorry that you feel the requirement to attend a LAN is too onerous for you to meet. I would still suggest going to the vVv website (http://www.vvv-gaming.com) to learn more about us and see if you would like to join as a community member, in case your situation changes and you might one day be able to attend a few LAN events per year..
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Sugarbear,
People are trying to show you
you dont have to appear at LANs to be a powerhouse in this community.
by putting the rule you have to go to LANs to play for us
means you are missing out on ALOT of good talent.
If youre looking for NEW players why would you narrow down options
example: vVv basketball team is looking for a new center
The center has to be atleast 7'3 or he cannot join the team
This example shows that you are cutting youre chances of finding a good player.
Just becuase a player isnt 7'3(in this case pay for his trips to MLG) does not mean he is not dedicated or just as good or even BETTER than the 7'3 player.
Dont want the good talent on your team?
Your choice
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On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
I feel like the type of support they are talking about could be entirely organized through a normal clan though, without an emphasis on attending events.
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On August 14 2011 10:59 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:32 genius_man16 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:18 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever. I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter. On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys. To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to. If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo... 1) Nericho nor Sheth participated in ANY LANs before they were acquired by a team actually. 2) You clearly underestimate the power of advertising. Simply having a vVv tag next to my name is enough for some dude standing behind me at MLG to go "Hey who's vVv? Are they a good team? Where can i find out more about them?" etc and then you have someone new that will head to your website and perhaps become a fan, buy your merchandise, etc. It is quite clear that you are a conservative organization though I'll grant you that. Perhaps the reason I'm being so fierce about this is because I was extremely exicted about this and wanted to join until I saw that you'd be forcing me to pay for myself to go to LANs that I cannot afford simply to stay on the team. 1. I didn't say they attended/performed at LANs BEFORE they were picked up, I said that their performance (at least Sheth's) is highly likely a reason for his continued sponsorship. 2. We are one of (if not THE) largest gaming communities in north America. We easily have upwards of 20+ members wearing the vVv logo attending every MLG (most of them paying out of pocket to attend, by the way), not counting sponsored players. We have no need for additional bodies wearing out logo. I"m sorry that you feel the requirement to attend a LAN is too onerous for you to meet. I would still suggest going to the vVv website (http://www.vvv-gaming.com) to learn more about us and see if you would like to join as a community member, in case your situation changes and you might one day be able to attend a few LAN events per year..
> implying vVv is kind of a big deal (in SC II community)
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On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys.
It seems like half of this page is just reiterating this point over and over again, so let me just address it once. If you are concerned that you are a superstar and stand to lose out by joining/applying for the vVv Academy then please don't join. We don't want divas, we want people who are serious about improving and willing to commit the time and training to do so.
For those of us living in reality, and realize that we aren't asking Idra to leave EG and apply for the Academy team, here is a solid opportunity for you to practice with some of North America's top players, potentially earn a sponsorship if you can improve to a level where you CAN compete at a high level, get experience in Clan Wars and LANs, get access to sponsors, get access to a large fan base and community...
Actually, I sincerely apologize. I just realized how incredibly offensive it is to provide this opportunity to the SC2 community. I should have realized that people want to be stuck finding their own practice partners, finding contact info for sponsors, building their own fan base, and that every master level player is getting offers from top level organizations like EG and SK gaming left and right.
Oh wait.
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the way the vvv representatives have responded is very off and not good for their pr, while they might think otherwise. but hey, maybe i'm too stupid to understand their business practices.
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On August 14 2011 11:05 Polskaa wrote:
Sugarbear,
People are trying to show you
you dont have to appear at LANs to be a powerhouse in this community.
by putting the rule you have to go to LANs to play for us
means you are missing out on ALOT of good talent.
If youre looking for NEW players why would you narrow down options
example: vVv basketball team is looking for a new center
The center has to be atleast 7'3 or he cannot join the team
This example shows that you are cutting youre chances of finding a good player.
Just becuase a player isnt 7'3(in this case pay for his trips to MLG) does not mean he is not dedicated or just as good or even BETTER than the 7'3 player.
Dont want the good talent on your team?
Your choice
If you can beat top level players consistently in online tournaments chances are you are going to get picked up and joining the vVv Academy is a waste of your time...
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On August 14 2011 10:01 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:56 vVvSweep wrote:
2) I will not discuss finances, but unless you have ever owned your own business it would be pointless to even try.
6) Did you really need 2,3,4,5,6 to say the same thing? If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult about what it is like to own a business so you can come across a little more intelligent. As it stands you stated 5 times that you know nothing about business. Just for the record on the PR side of things (as I do PR and have done PR), repeatedly telling users they know nothing and you are too smart to explain it to them is not a good thing. Instead you break it down and help them see your side.
well, we all are obviously too stupid to see their sides of the story even if he were to try and explain it to us.
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On August 14 2011 11:20 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:05 Polskaa wrote:
Sugarbear,
People are trying to show you
you dont have to appear at LANs to be a powerhouse in this community.
by putting the rule you have to go to LANs to play for us
means you are missing out on ALOT of good talent.
If youre looking for NEW players why would you narrow down options
example: vVv basketball team is looking for a new center
The center has to be atleast 7'3 or he cannot join the team
This example shows that you are cutting youre chances of finding a good player.
Just becuase a player isnt 7'3(in this case pay for his trips to MLG) does not mean he is not dedicated or just as good or even BETTER than the 7'3 player.
Dont want the good talent on your team?
Your choice If you can beat top level players consistently in online tournaments chances are you are going to get picked up and joining the vVv Academy is a waste of your time...
Obviously yes. But isn't the point of an ACADEMY to take people NOT at that skill level and help cultivate them so that they can one day get to that skill level?
Perhaps the entire problem with this post is that it's not an "Academy" at all, and just a recruitment thread.
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On August 14 2011 11:09 Jawmare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:59 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 10:32 genius_man16 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:18 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 10:08 genius_man16 wrote:
IMO if you have sponsors that "don't care about online tournaments" you should probably find new sponsors.
Or are players like Nerchio and Sheth not good enough for your sponsors?
Edit:
You won't respond to this I guess but whatever. I think you're missing the point of the Nerchio and Sheth success stories. They perform consistently well at LANs. If they did well in online tournaments and then underperformed at every LAN they attended then no one would care about them anymore and they would not be on top sponsored teams. Yes online tournaments are a good indicator of skill but LANs are ultimately where your skills matter. On August 14 2011 10:06 vVvSweep wrote:
If you have all the answers then perhaps you should run your own company and sponsor players.
That's all I have the energy to answer here. There is so much wrong with this whole post and after spending the last 4hours trying to clarify and answer everyone's questions my patience is running out. So in an effort to not cross any professional lines here, I am done for the night and will likely miss out on replying to lots of posts in the hours to come.
So grats to Select on winning the bnet invitational, and goodnight! I've tried running a business and I know that the FIRST thing that you have to do when you start a business is be able to take risks. You have to go out on a limb with your money/time/etc to be able to succeed. And sponsoring a player or two (like CoL) to go to MLG and help them improve is part of the risk taking that ANY AND EVERY business in the world today has had to do. But if you want to just try and extort people for free advertising I suppose that's your right. If people join gl to you guys. To suggest that vVv doesn't take risks is incredibly naive. We are a conservative organization and the level of risk involved in sponsoring a noname player and sending them to MLG is simply more than we are willing to commit to. If you feel that having noname players wearing the vVv tag is exploitative maybe you need to reconsider the benefit vVv receives from having said noname player wearing the vVv logo... 1) Nericho nor Sheth participated in ANY LANs before they were acquired by a team actually. 2) You clearly underestimate the power of advertising. Simply having a vVv tag next to my name is enough for some dude standing behind me at MLG to go "Hey who's vVv? Are they a good team? Where can i find out more about them?" etc and then you have someone new that will head to your website and perhaps become a fan, buy your merchandise, etc. It is quite clear that you are a conservative organization though I'll grant you that. Perhaps the reason I'm being so fierce about this is because I was extremely exicted about this and wanted to join until I saw that you'd be forcing me to pay for myself to go to LANs that I cannot afford simply to stay on the team. 1. I didn't say they attended/performed at LANs BEFORE they were picked up, I said that their performance (at least Sheth's) is highly likely a reason for his continued sponsorship. 2. We are one of (if not THE) largest gaming communities in north America. We easily have upwards of 20+ members wearing the vVv logo attending every MLG (most of them paying out of pocket to attend, by the way), not counting sponsored players. We have no need for additional bodies wearing out logo. I"m sorry that you feel the requirement to attend a LAN is too onerous for you to meet. I would still suggest going to the vVv website (http://www.vvv-gaming.com) to learn more about us and see if you would like to join as a community member, in case your situation changes and you might one day be able to attend a few LAN events per year.. > implying vVv is kind of a big deal (in SC II community)
Suggesting that vVv is not one of the biggest NA SC2 communities would be a bit difficult to back up...
We are certainly not more important than any other SC2 community, but the level of support vVv gaming has shown for SC2 and given the size of the organization, we represent a very large active community of SC2 players and fans.
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Somehow misclicked post :/
The only problem that I really have with the idea is that you have to attend all the lan events, paying for them yourself, or you might get removed from the team.
I feel like everything else is completely reasonable, helpful to your SC2 skill and gets you exposure as a player.
However, if you have to attend lan events, than you have to have the money in order to go to them, and once you do, you may lose first round to a good player and then be left with nothing.
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On August 14 2011 11:23 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 11:20 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 11:05 Polskaa wrote:
Sugarbear,
People are trying to show you
you dont have to appear at LANs to be a powerhouse in this community.
by putting the rule you have to go to LANs to play for us
means you are missing out on ALOT of good talent.
If youre looking for NEW players why would you narrow down options
example: vVv basketball team is looking for a new center
The center has to be atleast 7'3 or he cannot join the team
This example shows that you are cutting youre chances of finding a good player.
Just becuase a player isnt 7'3(in this case pay for his trips to MLG) does not mean he is not dedicated or just as good or even BETTER than the 7'3 player.
Dont want the good talent on your team?
Your choice If you can beat top level players consistently in online tournaments chances are you are going to get picked up and joining the vVv Academy is a waste of your time... Obviously yes. But isn't the point of an ACADEMY to take people NOT at that skill level and help cultivate them so that they can one day get to that skill level? Perhaps the entire problem with this post is that it's not an "Academy" at all, and just a recruitment thread.
The two go hand in hand, don't they? Name one University or sports team without a recruitment office? (peewee league doesn't count)
The point of the Academy is to take people NOT at that skill level and help cultivate them so that they can one day get to that skill level. If they can get to that skill level and still can't afford to attend a LAN I'm sure the community or management would find a way to make it happen (as was the case with vVv Reo).
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The arguments are somewhat moot, vVv has only received one application since this thread went up. It is clear that most potential applicants feel that vVv is expecting too much and giving too little otherwise they would likely have more apps.
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On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
Are you implying that because we don't agree with your approach, we cannot possibly be serious about improving? Because I would love an opportunity like the one you're presenting. I'm in what seems to be a fairly unique position where I could probably manage to get myself to multiple MLGs this year, so I could fulfill that portion. But a lot of people aren't. I honestly cannot fathom how you and Sweep fail to understand that concept. I also cannot understand what makes you guys think that the approach you're taking ITT is at all in the best interest of this project.
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what happened during the prior runs?
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Wow, I had a lot of respect for the vVv team and the events you guys host. Hell, I even understand what you're doing with this academy, even if it is questionable why someone would want to pay for practice partners essentially.
But wow. Wow, wow, wow the vVv representatives in this thread are dicks.
Quit being condescending, arrogant assholes to people asking honest questions about the workings and motivation of this academy. As a community we are entitled to ask questions and receive answers. If you think otherwise, don't bring your academy into the public light.
And again, quit being dicks.
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but you are not like EG or SK...
They have results in big tournaments you dont
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On August 14 2011 06:29 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 06:13 TheTrueAmerican wrote:
What you say is true, but in most cases people make a name for themselves by succeeding in online tournaments (Nerchio), gets picked up by a sponsored team that in return sends them to LANs. I just think it's a bit weird the other way around. If you are a known player, getting sponsorship requests from other teams, performing well in online tournaments and just too broke to attend any LAN then we can talk in private. If you aren't in that position then you can feel free to continue to be unsponsored or you can try out for the vVv Academy for a chance to prove yourself with your prospective sponsor watching. Performance at a LAN is a VERY important part of proving your skill and value and that is why it is part of the process.
I dont really understand, NO ONE from the VVV team has done well at a major lan as far as i know (no top 10's thats for sure) so why are they sponsored and considered valuable (if you even do pay for them to go to lans , wich i assume you do) and someone who placed first in the academy (wich is a reasonable feat) you cant even give them a try at a lan event or 2?
Its not like VVV is some top tier prestigious team in sc2, im sure people would be willing to pay their way to LANS for a chance to get on a major top tier team like liquid , EG , MOUZ, but for VVV a team that really hasnt had any success in offline events (wich you claim are so important) i just dont see it.
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On August 14 2011 11:38 Moa wrote:
The arguments are somewhat moot, vVv has only received one application since this thread went up. It is clear that most potential applicants feel that vVv is expecting too much and giving too little otherwise they would likely have more apps.
I was the one who applied, i think this would be great as long as they DO NOT expect me to go to every single MLG etc. i will be able to go to the ones in my area but thats about it.
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On August 14 2011 11:39 templar rage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment? Are you implying that because we don't agree with your approach, we cannot possibly be serious about improving? Because I would love an opportunity like the one you're presenting. I'm in what seems to be a fairly unique position where I could probably manage to get myself to multiple MLGs this year, so I could fulfill that portion. But a lot of people aren't. I honestly cannot fathom how you and Sweep fail to understand that concept. I also cannot understand what makes you guys think that the approach you're taking ITT is at all in the best interest of this project.
I think a lot of people are overreacting about the LAN attendance requirement. It's entirely possible that you won't be dropped for missing a LAN, in fact most people seem to think that requirement is onerous. The OP says the OPTION to drop someone for low attendance exists. Obviously if you are a skilled player and we think you are working hard to improve we aren't going to drop you.
Likewise I think someone who can't afford to go to LANs has a much better shot at making it as a pro with the resources and support of the vVv Community behind them, than they do on their own.
I think a very vocal minority of people who feel they should be payed for essentially nothing has done a very good job of putting this opportunity in a negative light. It's unfortunate that they have managed to derail the thread and dissuade potential applicants, but there's really nothing I can do about that. Team Liquid is Team Liquid and although there are some quality posters here, the trolls far outnumber them.
Edit: I just want to clarify that I was not calling the majority of posters with legitimate concerns in this thread trolls, only the ones accusing vVv of exploiting their players or generally speaking negatively of vVv. I feel like this comment was unfairly taken out of context when I put a lot of effort into addressing peoples' legitimate concerns.
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Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue.
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On August 14 2011 11:41 JonnyLaw wrote:
Wow, I had a lot of respect for the vVv team and the events you guys host. Hell, I even understand what you're doing with this academy, even if it is questionable why someone would want to pay for practice partners essentially.
But wow. Wow, wow, wow the vVv representatives in this thread are dicks.
Quit being condescending, arrogant assholes to people asking honest questions about the workings and motivation of this academy. As a community we are entitled to ask questions and receive answers. If you think otherwise, don't bring your academy into the public light.
And again, quit being dicks.
Case in point, regarding the thread being derailed. In no way is vVv asking for monetary compensation from Academy members, yet you assume as a result of the trolling that we are.
And now you see me and Sweep as dicks despite us defending the Academy and potential members from trolls saying things that are simply untrue about the Academy.
I have done my best to defend the Academy from false accusations, and I would think potential applicants would want to see vVv representative defend them from trolls, rather than have people think they are stupid for joining an organization that just wants to exploit them.
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wow why so much hate in here. it's not like people are going to be forced to participate in this, seems like a cool idea, I hope some decent players participate and this is a success.
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If i have to pay $500 to go to a lan knowing there is no chance in hell I can win it, i would not go to that lan in order to gain some lan experience. Because financially as players of this game (teens to low 20s) they can't afford it.
On the other hand, a team trying to help and develop talented players who shown potential at the game is willing to pay their players and help them gain valuable offline lan experiences, even if said player don't show any results.
But then again, a person as intelligent as the vVvsweep, he has to be well aware of this fact, by even bring this up i'm actually insulting his intelligence.
He obviously has his reasons why he would propose for the players to pay for their own traveling to attend lan, and attending lan is a requirement to stay on the team. As for his reason, he need not let us know because there is no way someone as stupid as I am can even remotely come close to understanding the logic behind this complex business operation. Even if he were to try, it would be a major waste of time, and he has wasted enough time on me by even replying to my post which was trying to but unsuccessfully defend the honor of vVv.
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On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue.
It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling?
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On August 14 2011 12:20 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue. It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling?
This planet, because for most people "trolling" has a very specific definition. Having a (what you consider) extreme opinion and deliberately being a dick to elicit strong reactions are two different things.
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On August 14 2011 12:31 pyaar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:20 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue. It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling? This planet, because for most people "trolling" has a very specific definition. Having a (what you consider) extreme opinion and deliberately being a dick to elicit strong reactions are two different things.
No. I can accept that someone would prefer a model like complexity offers, but to go so far as calling it exploitation to give an opportunity to people is trolling.
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On August 14 2011 12:40 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:31 pyaar wrote:On August 14 2011 12:20 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue. It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling? This planet, because for most people "trolling" has a very specific definition. Having a (what you consider) extreme opinion and deliberately being a dick to elicit strong reactions are two different things. No. I can accept that someone would prefer a model like complexity offers, but to go so far as calling it exploitation to give an opportunity to people is trolling.
I dont understand what the opportunity is here? Sure i guess some extra training with VVV academy but beyond that, there isnt really any, i mean you guys are saying that after a player attends some lans IF he places well he will get financial support from VVV, but if a player pays for himself to go to LANS just by himself and places well, he wouldnt need financial support fromm VVV he would be getting offers from any numerous amount of teams. It just seems like a sneaky way to secure a player with potential to a sub par team after he puts all the risks up (financially) himself.
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You guys are mistaken if you think TL is a terrible community, if anyone in this thread was trolling they would have been warned/banned.
Basically, what nearly everyone in this thread has been saying is that your supposed requirements regarding lans are unreasonable, and this is reflected in your lack of applicants.
The response to this has been telling us that we are stupid, not the best PR there.
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how do ppl expect these guys to go to major lans with no help? MLG is the only feasible one, and even then 1 MLG can cost up to $700-800 to attend.
The europe trips are not even worth considering. and the incentive is steelseries gear? are you joking. they could spend the money that they spent to attend major lans on their own gear and have hundreds left over.
no offense but this is not really worth anyones commitment. you can find our own practice partners elsewhere and do just fine.
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Regardless of whether or not the academy is exploitation the fact that so many people would honestly see it that way shows that there is something wrong with the way the academy is being implemented.
Would you consider changing the policy, it seems unnecessary that one would need to go to lans to show that they can play with the big boys. Would it be impossible for someone to get through the academy simply by out performing the current roster online?
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On August 14 2011 12:51 duk3 wrote:
You guys are mistaken if you think TL is a terrible community, if anyone in this thread was trolling they would have been warned/banned.
Basically, what nearly everyone in this thread has been saying is that your supposed requirements regarding lans are unreasonable, and this is reflected in your lack of applicants.
The response to this has been telling us that we are stupid, not the best PR there.
agreed , if anyone had really been trolling they would have been banned/ warned quite promptly
I should know (not a very clean TL record, im trying though!)
There is a clear difference between being criticial of something and trolling.
If you guys didnt want your academy to be subject to scrutiny you should have just posted it on your own website, not on a forum.
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On August 14 2011 12:40 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:31 pyaar wrote:On August 14 2011 12:20 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue. It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling? This planet, because for most people "trolling" has a very specific definition. Having a (what you consider) extreme opinion and deliberately being a dick to elicit strong reactions are two different things. No. I can accept that someone would prefer a model like complexity offers, but to go so far as calling it exploitation to give an opportunity to people is trolling.
Honestly though, is there a single person that wouldnt prefer complexity's model. I dont think anyone would prefer to pay to go to their own lans by choice.
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On August 14 2011 12:51 duk3 wrote:
You guys are mistaken if you think TL is a terrible community, if anyone in this thread was trolling they would have been warned/banned.
Basically, what nearly everyone in this thread has been saying is that your supposed requirements regarding lans are unreasonable, and this is reflected in your lack of applicants.
The response to this has been telling us that we are stupid, not the best PR there.
I NEVER said TL is a terrible community. I did say the trolls outnumber the quality posters, but that is a far different statement. Please stop trying to derail the thread with these types of poorly thought-out comments.
The response has not been telling you that you are stupid. I feel that I have addressed as well as possible the attendance requirement. It's an OPTION to drop you if you have low attendance. By no means is it a guarantee that you spend thousands of dollars traveling around the world to every major LAN, nor is it a rejection of an application for someone who might need a little help making it to an event.
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SugarBear, the OP implies that if you do not (or cannot) attend major LAN events (and Sweep implied it again later) you will be dropped from the Academy (not even the team). If that's not true, then maybe you should tell Sweep to edit his post. If it is true, you're requiring a huge financial commitment that's going to be unacceptable for a lot of people, even the ones who would have otherwise been completely dedicated.
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On August 14 2011 12:56 Moa wrote:
Regardless of whether or not the academy is exploitation the fact that so many people would honestly see it that way shows that there is something wrong with the way the academy is being implemented.
Would you consider changing the policy, it seems unnecessary that one would need to go to lans to show that they can play with the big boys. Would it be impossible for someone to get through the academy simply by out performing the current roster online?
Given the highly negative feedback it's possible we might end up changing the policy, however, as I said above it is only an OPTION and not a guarantee you will be dropped. Some redefinition of what it means to be active may need to be considered instead of just a blanket "don't miss two major events".
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On August 14 2011 09:56 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:17 rei wrote:
ok, let's think about this with logic,
1) vVv wants a good team a group of smart players, smart enough to get into GrandMasters, and have a chance in taking a game off the big names out there.
2) "vVv-gaming is a very large organization." meaning they are well financed.
3) people who are smart enough to get in to grand masters are smart enough to realize vVv is "a very large organization" and that would have no problem paying for their basic traveling expenses.
Therefore, 4) it makes no common senses for vVv to expect someone smart enough to get good at starcraft but not smart enough to realize their expenses can easily be paid by a sponsor that they represents.
5) vVv is good in nature, and will not take advantage of people in order to promote their logo.
6) base on premise 1,2,3,4,5, vVv will pay for the expenses of their recruits who puts in hard works and train together in order to get better together, because vVv is good in nature, and will not attempt to insult their recruits' intelligence by taking advantage of smart people who are smart enough to get into Grand master in order to promote their logo for free. 1) We are not expecting academy members to take games off "big names". 2) I will not discuss finances, but unless you have ever owned your own business it would be pointless to even try. 3) you are obviously not one of those people. You think that because company X sells $500,000 worth of product in a month that they are rich... Chances are they would be lucky to bring in $5,000 a month. Go ask Sundance how much profit hes pulling in after selling thousands and thousands of tickets to MLGs. (you don't need to, ill answer it, hes still in debt) 4) see 3 5) Thank you. Our logo is spread out enough, we don't need to try and use people for free advertising. 6) Did you really need 2,3,4,5,6 to say the same thing? If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult about what it is like to own a business so you can come across a little more intelligent. As it stands you stated 5 times that you know nothing about business.
Pretty sure he called me immature and stupid in this post. But that might be just me, because i'm pretty stupid, and might not able to fully gasp vVv.Sweep's masterful illustration of his mastery in English.
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Maybe then the OP should be worded differently.
It seems like you guys are willing to provide gear and community financial assistance (like room sharing) for the most dedicated members of the academy. The opening post should reflect possible cost sharing between members.
It's an OPTION to drop you if you have low attendance.
How low are we talking about? I haven't seen any vVv members at Dreamhack or Assembly or WCG yet, so why is it being asked for of the academy members?
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You told rei that he should be more intelligent, that sounds like calling someone stupid.
Any community where trolls outnumber the good posters isn't a good community, fortunately, TL isn't one of those.
Maybe you should have worded the original post better to avoid all these unfortunate misunderstandings.
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So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs.
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On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs.
This was the point i was trying to make. If they are paying for members of their team to go to tournaments but have higher expectations of academy members but dont offer financial assistance then what the hell is the point.
If a player has to pay for his own travel costs anyways he may as well just go there himself and if he places well in MLG a more prestigious team will likely pick him up pretty quick, one that will likely pay your travel expenses at the drop of a hat.
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Clearly what vVv guy is missing is that if someone is good enough to crush it at MLG or these other live events they will already be sponsored by a real team who pays for their players.
If someone isn't at that level yet they will grind online until they are good enough to get a sponsor who will send them to those events.
If the player doesn't practice enough he will be wasting his money because he will lose and not gain the sponsorship, and if he has practiced enough he will be wasting his money because he could be sponsored by a team who pays his fees.
One last thought:
The people in this thread who say "if you don't think it is a good deal then don't apply, but stop criticizing" are kind of a joke. This is a public forum, in a forum someone posts something to the readership and those people give their thoughts on the matter. Some may apply, some may say it is great, and some may say they think it is stupid, but that is the point.
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On August 14 2011 13:05 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:56 Moa wrote:
Regardless of whether or not the academy is exploitation the fact that so many people would honestly see it that way shows that there is something wrong with the way the academy is being implemented.
Would you consider changing the policy, it seems unnecessary that one would need to go to lans to show that they can play with the big boys. Would it be impossible for someone to get through the academy simply by out performing the current roster online?
Given the highly negative feedback it's possible we might end up changing the policy, however, as I said above it is only an OPTION and not a guarantee you will be dropped. Some redefinition of what it means to be active may need to be considered instead of just a blanket "don't miss two major events".
It is good that you would show flexibility even though I am sure this thread is the culmination of a ton of planning.
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On August 14 2011 13:07 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:56 vVvSweep wrote:On August 14 2011 09:17 rei wrote:
ok, let's think about this with logic,
1) vVv wants a good team a group of smart players, smart enough to get into GrandMasters, and have a chance in taking a game off the big names out there.
2) "vVv-gaming is a very large organization." meaning they are well financed.
3) people who are smart enough to get in to grand masters are smart enough to realize vVv is "a very large organization" and that would have no problem paying for their basic traveling expenses.
Therefore, 4) it makes no common senses for vVv to expect someone smart enough to get good at starcraft but not smart enough to realize their expenses can easily be paid by a sponsor that they represents.
5) vVv is good in nature, and will not take advantage of people in order to promote their logo.
6) base on premise 1,2,3,4,5, vVv will pay for the expenses of their recruits who puts in hard works and train together in order to get better together, because vVv is good in nature, and will not attempt to insult their recruits' intelligence by taking advantage of smart people who are smart enough to get into Grand master in order to promote their logo for free. 1) We are not expecting academy members to take games off "big names". 2) I will not discuss finances, but unless you have ever owned your own business it would be pointless to even try. 3) you are obviously not one of those people. You think that because company X sells $500,000 worth of product in a month that they are rich... Chances are they would be lucky to bring in $5,000 a month. Go ask Sundance how much profit hes pulling in after selling thousands and thousands of tickets to MLGs. (you don't need to, ill answer it, hes still in debt) 4) see 3 5) Thank you. Our logo is spread out enough, we don't need to try and use people for free advertising. 6) Did you really need 2,3,4,5,6 to say the same thing? If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult about what it is like to own a business so you can come across a little more intelligent. As it stands you stated 5 times that you know nothing about business. Pretty sure he called me immature and stupid in this post. But that might be just me, because i'm pretty stupid, and might not able to fully gasp vVv.Sweep's masterful illustration of his mastery in English.
I apologize on behalf of sweep for that. The trolls in this thread were getting to him and he must have mistaken your post as an attack on vVv.
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I think this is just shocking.
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Actually the way you're trying to recruit is horrid. You can't give people nothing to represent you. I've been on 50calibre, mainLine, Icons of Vanity, Mobility for Quake Live and they all help in some way if I wanted to go to a lan. The way you expect it and think anyone who will rep an org for free is kind of idiotic. No one who has the potential IE: Masters/GM would join an org for free or if they do they have low standards.
Did your CSS team join for free? No because they were top players/team. You prolluy had to pay league fees and server. Skill isn't free.
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this seems quite pretentious on vVv's part. they really aren't quite on the same level as say an EG who could maybe pull this off without paying for lan expenses (even though they could obviously afford it) because their players are actually iconic and looked up to by high level players . i dont see why anyone would do this...seems like no risk for vVv just publicity.
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On August 14 2011 13:35 KoDo wrote:
this seems quite pretentious on vVv's part. they really aren't quite on the same level as say an EG who could maybe pull this off without paying for lan expenses (even though they could obviously afford it) because their players are actually iconic and looked up to by high level players . i dont see why anyone would do this...seems like no risk for vVv just publicity.
EG doesn't have any high level players....
User was warned for this post
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On August 14 2011 13:38 Peterblue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:35 KoDo wrote:
this seems quite pretentious on vVv's part. they really aren't quite on the same level as say an EG who could maybe pull this off without paying for lan expenses (even though they could obviously afford it) because their players are actually iconic and looked up to by high level players . i dont see why anyone would do this...seems like no risk for vVv just publicity. EG doesn't have any high level players....
What?
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On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs.
Might want to do a bit of research, i was one of those at Anaheim. Im not on the A-team, i went for fun. Might want to do some research on the other people who wore the vVv tag there as well ^_^
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On August 14 2011 13:08 Sadistx wrote:Maybe then the OP should be worded differently. It seems like you guys are willing to provide gear and community financial assistance (like room sharing) for the most dedicated members of the academy. The opening post should reflect possible cost sharing between members. How low are we talking about? I haven't seen any vVv members at Dreamhack or Assembly or WCG yet, so why is it being asked for of the academy members?
It's not my decision who stays in the academy or not, but I would be surprised if low attendance meant something other than consistently missing local LANs / MLGs.
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peterblue's standard is very high, by high level he means jaedong/flash/bisu high level, even puma can't touch those 3 in terms of talents.
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On August 14 2011 13:38 Peterblue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:35 KoDo wrote:
this seems quite pretentious on vVv's part. they really aren't quite on the same level as say an EG who could maybe pull this off without paying for lan expenses (even though they could obviously afford it) because their players are actually iconic and looked up to by high level players . i dont see why anyone would do this...seems like no risk for vVv just publicity. EG doesn't have any high level players....
now vvv members can acctually cite trolling (don't forget to use mla/apa guys). b/c clearly idra and puma are terrible. oh wait, puma just smashed through the open bracket of the nasl tourny defeating 3?4?5?6? korean pros many code s/a, then defeating ret, squirtle, someone, mc to take $50k. and as of late some of the other eg members haven't been putting up the best results, however, earlier in sc2 they did--some people have slumps, that is not to say that maybe their "golden-days" are over but if you honestly believe that team eg doesn't have players with skill and or potential, i don't even know how to respond or what to say.
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my point is people would be excited at the prospect of being on a team or playing/practicing with people like idra, puma, or demuslim...if you look @ vVv's roster it doesn't really compare. i dont know why you would pay that much money to play with them. if you're at the GM level, you'd meet atleast similar players on ladder?
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As a vVv member whos interested in this team I do find that the lan requirement is absurd. If I'm a good player that wants to take my play up to the next level I'm not going to be able to afford such commodities, maybe ONE MLG a year.
But to those that are saying the players would gain nothing thats just silly, think about it.
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On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs.
The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team...
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On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs.
^ gg no re
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On August 14 2011 13:08 duk3 wrote:
You told rei that he should be more intelligent, that sounds like calling someone stupid.
Any community where trolls outnumber the good posters isn't a good community, fortunately, TL isn't one of those.
Maybe you should have worded the original post better to avoid all these unfortunate misunderstandings.
If you feel that TL is not a good community that's unfortunate, I disagree. It has it's share of poor posters but for a community this large I think they do fairly well.
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On August 14 2011 13:45 KoDo wrote:
my point is people would be excited at the prospect of being on a team or playing/practicing with people like idra, puma, or demuslim...if you look @ vVv's roster it doesn't really compare. i dont know why you would pay that much money to play with them. if you're at the GM level, you'd meet atleast similar players on ladder?
We aren't asking people for money to play with us.. I don't know why this idea is so commonly promulgated throughout this thread.
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On August 14 2011 13:53 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:08 duk3 wrote:
You told rei that he should be more intelligent, that sounds like calling someone stupid.
Any community where trolls outnumber the good posters isn't a good community, fortunately, TL isn't one of those.
Maybe you should have worded the original post better to avoid all these unfortunate misunderstandings. If you feel that TL is not a good community that's unfortunate, I disagree. It has it's share of poor posters but for a community this large I think they do fairly well.
SugarBear, did you read my post? Because it says that TL isn't a bad community.
May I refer you to battle.net?
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On August 14 2011 13:14 MannerMan wrote:
Clearly what vVv guy is missing is that if someone is good enough to crush it at MLG or these other live events they will already be sponsored by a real team who pays for their players.
I think this is the major disconnect throughout this entire thread. If you are already good enough to crush at an MLG then please apply to be a sponsored player, don't bother wasting your time with the academy.
If someone isn't at that level yet they will grind online until they are good enough to get a sponsor who will send them to those events.
There is more to being good than grinding games, and the Academy team offers you the chance to learn what those are and assistance with developing those areas.
If the player doesn't practice enough he will be wasting his money because he will lose and not gain the sponsorship, and if he has practiced enough he will be wasting his money because he could be sponsored by a team who pays his fees.
If you aren't going to practice then you shouldn't be a part of the Academy. If you do well as a result of practicing you will not have to worry about vVv not covering your expenses. See vVvReo.
One last thought:
The people in this thread who say "if you don't think it is a good deal then don't apply, but stop criticizing" are kind of a joke. This is a public forum, in a forum someone posts something to the readership and those people give their thoughts on the matter. Some may apply, some may say it is great, and some may say they think it is stupid, but that is the point.
I agree. There has been a mix of good feedback and trolling in this thread, and I respect and appreciate those of you who have provided constructive feedback.
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On August 14 2011 13:32 deathr0w wrote:
Actually the way you're trying to recruit is horrid. You can't give people nothing to represent you. I've been on 50calibre, mainLine, Icons of Vanity, Mobility for Quake Live and they all help in some way if I wanted to go to a lan. The way you expect it and think anyone who will rep an org for free is kind of idiotic. No one who has the potential IE: Masters/GM would join an org for free or if they do they have low standards.
Did your CSS team join for free? No because they were top players/team. You prolluy had to pay league fees and server. Skill isn't free.
The role of the sponsored team is to represent vVv gaming. The Academy team will also represent us to a certain extent, but clearly the intent for the Academy is to provide an environment to help develop players.
vVv never had a CSS team.
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On August 14 2011 13:58 duk3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:53 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 13:08 duk3 wrote:
You told rei that he should be more intelligent, that sounds like calling someone stupid.
Any community where trolls outnumber the good posters isn't a good community, fortunately, TL isn't one of those.
Maybe you should have worded the original post better to avoid all these unfortunate misunderstandings. If you feel that TL is not a good community that's unfortunate, I disagree. It has it's share of poor posters but for a community this large I think they do fairly well. SugarBear, did you read my post? Because it says that TL isn't a bad community. May I refer you to battle.net?
Well you kept suggesting that TL was a bad community. Those are not my thoughts on TL so they must have come from you.
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On August 14 2011 13:41 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:08 Sadistx wrote:Maybe then the OP should be worded differently. It seems like you guys are willing to provide gear and community financial assistance (like room sharing) for the most dedicated members of the academy. The opening post should reflect possible cost sharing between members. It's an OPTION to drop you if you have low attendance. How low are we talking about? I haven't seen any vVv members at Dreamhack or Assembly or WCG yet, so why is it being asked for of the academy members? It's not my decision who stays in the academy or not, but I would be surprised if low attendance meant something other than consistently missing local LANs / MLGs.
To add to this, obviously if we have two players of equivalent skill and one is attending MLGs and other LANs regularly, and the other has yet to attend an event, we would favor the player representing vVv over the one who is not.
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On August 14 2011 13:47 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs. The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team...
Wait what? Why "of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the team"??
That doesnt really make sense , especially in a VVV academy setting where the players are up and comers looking to improve. How are they supposed to improve if they are already supposed to be better than the players they are training with at the academy?
This seems screwed up, so you have to outperform everyone on the VVV team to even get a spot , even though that shouldnt be too hard considering their results, its ridiculous that they have higher expectations of someone who isnt sponsored / has to pay their own way to lans, then they do of people who are already sponsored on their team.
That seems totally backwards.
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On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys.
This is spot on in my eyes, great post.
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On August 14 2011 05:49 masterbreti wrote:
This would be intresting if I could afford to auctally go to major lans. But I don't have the money to do so. Sounds nice. But Just a little expensive for me.
Otherwise I would be happy to apply.
they said master or grand-master players ur in gold
stop giving shit to vvv they're a good organisation
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Seems like a decent opportunity for up and comers to get better practice in a more structured environment. If they left out the whole attending and doing good at big lans thing they would've been ok. Just kinda hilarious to even mention that when none of their players have done jack shit at a major LAN (kinda harsh but yea)...so why would someone who can place highly at a lan even want to join vVv? I don't know what their teams are like in other games but they ain't exactly dignitas or mouz in SC2.
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On August 14 2011 14:12 luckylefty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys. This is spot on in my eyes, great post.
This was the first odd thing that you noticed about their post?
How about the fact that they are posting a thing like this in the normal forums instead of the sponsor forums. Or the fact that they decide to post their application process and what rules you must follow instead of all the great benefits you will get if you join. I mean you can get all this information on their homepage, why not used a sponsored thread trying to hype it instead, they should take lessons from InControl, he knows how to do this properly.
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On August 14 2011 14:14 desrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 05:49 masterbreti wrote:
This would be intresting if I could afford to auctally go to major lans. But I don't have the money to do so. Sounds nice. But Just a little expensive for me.
Otherwise I would be happy to apply. they said master or grand-master players ur in gold stop giving shit to vvv they're a good organisation
lol desrow. I don't even ladder, in saying that if I took a day or two and laddered it would be easy to hit high masters. It's all a matter of putting in the hours to ladder.
If you read my post I wasn't saying anything negative about vVv. I was just saying I auctally cannot afford to go to lans and such because of the cost involved. Nothing againt vVv or anything, thats just my own personal circumstance.
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On August 14 2011 14:14 desrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 05:49 masterbreti wrote:
This would be intresting if I could afford to auctally go to major lans. But I don't have the money to do so. Sounds nice. But Just a little expensive for me.
Otherwise I would be happy to apply. they said master or grand-master players ur in gold stop giving shit to vvv they're a good organisation
lol why would u solo this guy out...you make no sense
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On August 14 2011 14:36 KoDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:14 desrow wrote:On August 14 2011 05:49 masterbreti wrote:
This would be intresting if I could afford to auctally go to major lans. But I don't have the money to do so. Sounds nice. But Just a little expensive for me.
Otherwise I would be happy to apply. they said master or grand-master players ur in gold stop giving shit to vvv they're a good organisation lol why would u solo this guy out...you make no sense
the 2nd line was to everyone else
the first line was a friendly reminder =)
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I can't say what the academy's plan is, but if you join the academy me, alej, hasuu, murder, titan and ruff will play practice games with you and if you're protoss you can chill with alej and I all day.
That's all I'm going to say in this thread.
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What? Do I need to link you? They had a CSS team you obviously don't know you're own community.
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So, what does this do for the players? Other than the practice, isn't this an inconvenience? Maybe I'm not understanding it completely.
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On August 14 2011 14:41 vVvTime wrote:
I can't say what the academy's plan is, but if you join the academy me, alej, hasuu, murder, titan and ruff will play practice games with you and if you're protoss you can chill with alej and I all day.
That's all I'm going to say in this thread.
What i dont understand is their expectations, they expect academy members to outperform the current members to get a place on the team
quote from babysteps "The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team..."
So an academy member training with you guys is supposed to take what you have taught him, and outperform everyone on the team, to get a shot at being on VVV after covering their own expenses to go to these lans in the first place....
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Well, originally I was going to post my personal opinion on the matter, but I think I'll let others speak for me.
From vVvSweep
+ Show Spoiler +If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult
From SugarBear in one of his more offensive posts:
+ Show Spoiler + Actually, I sincerely apologize. I just realized how incredibly offensive it is to provide this opportunity to the SC2 community. I should have realized that people want to be stuck finding their own practice partners, finding contact info for sponsors, building their own fan base, and that every master level player is getting offers from top level organizations like EG and SK gaming left and right.
Oh wait.
from iCCup.Diamond
+ Show Spoiler +Just for the record on the PR side of things (as I do PR and have done PR), repeatedly telling users they know nothing and you are too smart to explain it to them is not a good thing.
From rei
+ Show Spoiler +@ vVvSweep
wow, I have been trying to defend you with every one of my post in this thread, now i feel like a dumb ass for saying all the unintelligent things when I was trying to help you guys out.
you really taught me a lot about being adult, and what it means to be smart, thank you so much on pointing out my mistakes. and you are right that I know nothing about owning a business, and i am no way consider myself an intelligent person, in fact I consider myself to be very stupid trying to be less stupid by getting help from others who are more intelligent than I am, such as yourself.
Again thank you for replying to me, i never thought someone as stupid as I am is actually worthy of the time you spend in typing out 6 paragraph of text trying to enlighten me.
From Polskaa
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item
"classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end
I think we have made the the connection here.
I wont say it
But I will leave it to the people.
From ExO_
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:39 Jawmare wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
Sounds fishy
Nah that's standard practice for competitive e-sports right now. Unlike in sports such as football, teams do not generally divulge contract details outside of their organizations
(personal opinion INC)
Idk why anyone else hasn't commented on this being an issue. If SC2 wants to be an E-Sport, why isn't behaving like a real sport, where players' signings and salaries are widely known? Its pub and its good in my opinion- also makes it so the stronger teams survive while the weaker ones don't, which provides for higher levels of play, which is good.
From TemplarRage
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
Are you implying that because we don't agree with your approach, we cannot possibly be serious about improving? Because I would love an opportunity like the one you're presenting. I'm in what seems to be a fairly unique position where I could probably manage to get myself to multiple MLGs this year, so I could fulfill that portion. But a lot of people aren't. I honestly cannot fathom how you and Sweep fail to understand that concept. I also cannot understand what makes you guys think that the approach you're taking ITT is at all in the best interest of this project.
From: Don't remember, didn't write it down
+ Show Spoiler + But wow. Wow, wow, wow the vVv representatives in this thread are dicks.
Quit being condescending, arrogant assholes to people asking honest questions about the workings and motivation of this academy. As a community we are entitled to ask questions and receive answers. If you think otherwise, don't bring your academy into the public light.
and another
On the other hand, a team trying to help and develop talented players who shown potential at the game is willing to pay their players and help them gain valuable offline lan experiences, even if said player don't show any results.
But then again, a person as intelligent as the vVvsweep, he has to be well aware of this fact, by even bring this up i'm actually insulting his intelligence.
He obviously has his reasons why he would propose for the players to pay for their own traveling to attend lan, and attending lan is a requirement to stay on the team. As for his reason, he need not let us know because there is no way someone as stupid as I am can even remotely come close to understanding the logic behind this complex business operation. Even if he were to try, it would be a major waste of time, and he has wasted enough time on me by even replying to my post which was trying to but unsuccessfully defend the honor of vVv.
So if you read all that you have just read the compiled efforts of the thread up until now (the end of page 12 with vVvTime) and should probably have gotten the idea that vVv Gaming's representatives aren't very professional, nor is the deal they're selling very well thought out, especially when compared to this:
On August 14 2011 14:21 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:12 luckylefty wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys. This is spot on in my eyes, great post. This was the first odd thing that you noticed about their post?
How about the fact that they are posting a thing like this in the normal forums instead of the sponsor forums. Or the fact that they decide to post their application process and what rules you must follow instead of all the great benefits you will get if you join. I mean you can get all this information on their homepage, why not used a sponsored thread trying to hype it instead, they should take lessons from InControl, he knows how to do this properly.
/my post
TL;DR, this is a TL;DR for the thread :D
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On August 14 2011 14:42 deathr0w wrote:
What? Do I need to link you? They had a CSS team you obviously don't know you're own community.
I think you might be confusing Vision Valor Victory with Veni Vedi Vici, a German Counterstrike team.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 14:49 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:41 vVvTime wrote:
I can't say what the academy's plan is, but if you join the academy me, alej, hasuu, murder, titan and ruff will play practice games with you and if you're protoss you can chill with alej and I all day.
That's all I'm going to say in this thread. What i dont understand is their expectations, they expect academy members to outperform the current members to get a place on the team quote from babysteps "The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team..." So an academy member training with you guys is supposed to take what you have taught him, and outperform everyone on the team, to get a shot at being on VVV after covering their own expenses to go to these lans in the first place.... On August 14 2011 14:20 antelope591 wrote:
Seems like a decent opportunity for up and comers to get better practice in a more structured environment. If they left out the whole attending and doing good at big lans thing they would've been ok. Just kinda hilarious to even mention that when none of their players have done jack shit at a major LAN (kinda harsh but yea)...so why would someone who can place highly at a lan even want to join vVv? I don't know what their teams are like in other games but they ain't exactly dignitas or mouz in SC2. On August 14 2011 14:12 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:47 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs. The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team... Wait what? Why "of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the team"?? That doesnt really make sense , especially in a VVV academy setting where the players are up and comers looking to improve. How are they supposed to improve if they are already supposed to be better than the players they are training with at the academy? This seems screwed up, so you have to outperform everyone on the VVV team to even get a spot , even though that shouldnt be too hard considering their results, its ridiculous that they have higher expectations of someone who isnt sponsored / has to pay their own way to lans, then they do of people who are already sponsored on their team. That seems totally backwards.
So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player?
Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
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On August 14 2011 14:41 vVvTime wrote:
I can't say what the academy's plan is, but if you join the academy me, alej, hasuu, murder, titan and ruff will play practice games with you and if you're protoss you can chill with alej and I all day.
That's all I'm going to say in this thread.
you a sexy man time if I wasn't already friends with you I might join just so I could be friends with you! <3.
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On August 14 2011 14:54 Hossinaut wrote:Well, originally I was going to post my personal opinion on the matter, but I think I'll let others speak for me. From vVvSweep + Show Spoiler +If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult From SugarBear in one of his more offensive posts: + Show Spoiler + Actually, I sincerely apologize. I just realized how incredibly offensive it is to provide this opportunity to the SC2 community. I should have realized that people want to be stuck finding their own practice partners, finding contact info for sponsors, building their own fan base, and that every master level player is getting offers from top level organizations like EG and SK gaming left and right.
Oh wait. from iCCup.Diamond + Show Spoiler +Just for the record on the PR side of things (as I do PR and have done PR), repeatedly telling users they know nothing and you are too smart to explain it to them is not a good thing. From rei + Show Spoiler +@ vVvSweep
wow, I have been trying to defend you with every one of my post in this thread, now i feel like a dumb ass for saying all the unintelligent things when I was trying to help you guys out.
you really taught me a lot about being adult, and what it means to be smart, thank you so much on pointing out my mistakes. and you are right that I know nothing about owning a business, and i am no way consider myself an intelligent person, in fact I consider myself to be very stupid trying to be less stupid by getting help from others who are more intelligent than I am, such as yourself.
Again thank you for replying to me, i never thought someone as stupid as I am is actually worthy of the time you spend in typing out 6 paragraph of text trying to enlighten me. From Polskaa + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item
"classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end
I think we have made the the connection here.
I wont say it
But I will leave it to the people. From ExO_ + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:39 Jawmare wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
Sounds fishy
Nah that's standard practice for competitive e-sports right now. Unlike in sports such as football, teams do not generally divulge contract details outside of their organizations
(personal opinion INC)
Idk why anyone else hasn't commented on this being an issue. If SC2 wants to be an E-Sport, why isn't behaving like a real sport, where players' signings and salaries are widely known? Its pub and its good in my opinion- also makes it so the stronger teams survive while the weaker ones don't, which provides for higher levels of play, which is good. From TemplarRage + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
Are you implying that because we don't agree with your approach, we cannot possibly be serious about improving? Because I would love an opportunity like the one you're presenting. I'm in what seems to be a fairly unique position where I could probably manage to get myself to multiple MLGs this year, so I could fulfill that portion. But a lot of people aren't. I honestly cannot fathom how you and Sweep fail to understand that concept. I also cannot understand what makes you guys think that the approach you're taking ITT is at all in the best interest of this project.
From: Don't remember, didn't write it down + Show Spoiler + But wow. Wow, wow, wow the vVv representatives in this thread are dicks.
Quit being condescending, arrogant assholes to people asking honest questions about the workings and motivation of this academy. As a community we are entitled to ask questions and receive answers. If you think otherwise, don't bring your academy into the public light.
and another
On the other hand, a team trying to help and develop talented players who shown potential at the game is willing to pay their players and help them gain valuable offline lan experiences, even if said player don't show any results.
But then again, a person as intelligent as the vVvsweep, he has to be well aware of this fact, by even bring this up i'm actually insulting his intelligence.
He obviously has his reasons why he would propose for the players to pay for their own traveling to attend lan, and attending lan is a requirement to stay on the team. As for his reason, he need not let us know because there is no way someone as stupid as I am can even remotely come close to understanding the logic behind this complex business operation. Even if he were to try, it would be a major waste of time, and he has wasted enough time on me by even replying to my post which was trying to but unsuccessfully defend the honor of vVv. So if you read all that you have just read the compiled efforts of the thread up until now (the end of page 12 with vVvTime) and should probably have gotten the idea that vVv Gaming's representatives aren't very professional, nor is the deal they're selling very well thought out, especially when compared to this: Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:21 Integra wrote:On August 14 2011 14:12 luckylefty wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys. This is spot on in my eyes, great post. This was the first odd thing that you noticed about their post?
How about the fact that they are posting a thing like this in the normal forums instead of the sponsor forums. Or the fact that they decide to post their application process and what rules you must follow instead of all the great benefits you will get if you join. I mean you can get all this information on their homepage, why not used a sponsored thread trying to hype it instead, they should take lessons from InControl, he knows how to do this properly. /my post TL;DR, this is a TL;DR for the thread :D
I take exception to your selective quoting of my post. Taking that paragraph out of context is highly unprofessional and I hope you take more care in the future not to misquote people.
You may also want to be more balanced in your future reporting on threads, as there were a number of people accusing vVv of exploiting potential academy members and generally talking trash about the organization. Where is your selective quoting of those posts?
For reference here is the post I was responding to:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys.
Given what is said above, I feel my response was adequately measured and not at all out of line as a response to the general tone of this post.
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On August 14 2011 14:21 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:12 luckylefty wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys. This is spot on in my eyes, great post. This was the first odd thing that you noticed about their post? How about the fact that they are posting a thing like this in the normal forums instead of the sponsor forums. Or the fact that they decide to post their application process and what rules you must follow instead of all the great benefits you will get if you join. I mean you can get all this information on their homepage, why not used a sponsored thread trying to hype it instead, they should take lessons from InControl, he knows how to do this properly.
I agree that the OP was not very clear on the benefits of joining, and also that the requirement for activity was poorly thought out. There were internal reasons for making the definition so strict, but I am working behind the scenes to revise the definition to something more reasonable. Obviously we don't expect players to spend thousands of dollars to attend LANs (unless the want to).
The original intent was to provide an OPTION to drop players for inactivity IF NEEDED, not to punish players for not living up to impossible standards.
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Guys, this is not to join the actual vVv team, this is a training academy and if you do well then someday maybe you could get sponsored, just like the pro team. The idea is that by training with these guys they'd help you improve and maybe you're the next big SC2 talent and they pick you up and maybe you're not and they drop you.
Sugarbear: vVv is expecting people to pay money, not *to* vVv but to hotels and airlines etc. to get to these major LAN events. The expectation for a student who's just begun training at your academy (even for several months) to go to even half of just the MLG events is way too high, imo. I don't know what your place in the organization is but I really think you should talk with the higher-ups (or your fellows if you are a higher-up) about this LAN *requirement*. Some people just can't afford to and you'd be missing out on a large swath of what could be the "next big SC2 talent".
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So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player?
Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
being a successful organization isnt about sticking with the same players because they are loyal no matter their results. if you can replace your current players with better players then you should do so -- if you want to make a more successful team. if you are just into helping out people who are nice and are pretty good then stick with who you have.
but to say that academy players actually have to OUTPERFORM your sponsored players just to join the team completely goes against the point of what an academy is as we know it.
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On August 14 2011 15:24 TheTrueAmerican wrote:Show nested quote +
So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player?
Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
being a successful organization isnt about sticking with the same players because they are loyal no matter their results. if you can replace your current players with better players then you should do so -- if you want to make a more successful team. if you are just into helping out people who are nice and are pretty good then stick with who you have. but to say that academy players actually have to OUTPERFORM your sponsored players just to join the team completely goes against the point of what an academy is as we know it.
That's not what he means at all...
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On August 14 2011 15:24 TheTrueAmerican wrote:Show nested quote +
So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player?
Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
being a successful organization isnt about sticking with the same players because they are loyal no matter their results. if you can replace your current players with better players then you should do so -- if you want to make a more successful team. if you are just into helping out people who are nice and are pretty good then stick with who you have. but to say that academy players actually have to OUTPERFORM your sponsored players just to join the team completely goes against the point of what an academy is as we know it.
Absolutely, the key words being better players, not equal players.
There is also a lot of value in building a brand such as vVvTitan. The more value you build into that brand the more valuable it is, and the less likely you would pick up vVvJoeSchmoe to replace the vVvTitan brand.
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The aim of the academy is not clear in my eyes. Are you trying to pick up new players for the team? If so you should be more clear in the OP and more assuring of potential academy players that they can have a spot on the team when the deal is done. There is far too much demanding of dedication, without promising anything in return. As has been stated 100's of times, exact tournament placings have a large probability factor involved. The best player there is not guaranteed to win. You ask these players to shell out pocket money for a chance to join a second tier foreigner team. Not so classy.....
If this is more of a community-oriented training camp that may be used to scout for promising players, then it is a different story, but once again, there is a need for more transparency about what this program is about for people interested.
MOST IMPORTANTLY!!! In my opinion you all should answer peoples questions and concerns much more courteously than has been done so far. You are representing sponsors, many of these people are not. Take the high road
edit: I also don't understand why academy players have to outperform members. You act as if sponsoring a new player means kicking an old one out. All this talk about sticking with loyal members and building brands.....Notice how other teams recruiting is good for the whole team, such as when Liquid picks up a new member. It doesn't cut into the benefits of the other players as far as I know. win win!
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That's not what he means at all...
i was giving a situation in which most organizations are in. he was saying he doesnt want to drop current sponsored players just because academy players might perform better. which means hes not going to have the strongest team that most organizations try to get. which also tells me they arent focused on having the best team but the most "good" players as possible represent them for the least cost. more of a quantity over quality thing by the looks of it.
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I am totally confused as to this entire discussion. If people are interested in what vVv is offering here, they will contact them about it, I shouldn't even post but I can't help it.
If you don't think it's a good deal or don't fit the criteria that they are looking for ( it is their prerogative ) then how does it affect you in any way? Why even bother posting?
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There is also a lot of value in building a brand such as vVvTitan. The more value you build into that brand the more valuable it is, and the less likely you would pick up vVvJoeSchmoe to replace the vVvTitan brand.
i can understand and respect that, but look at where EG is with say LZgamer or even machine to an extent. they have a pretty good brand for themselves but not really pro players and some would argue they take up spots better players might deserve to have to make EG a really strong team.
brand names are important but to call anyone in vVv a brand name is kind of pushing it. so their spots on the team shouldnt be as concrete as you are telling us.
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On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item
"classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end
I think we have made the the connection here.
I wont say it
But I will leave it to the people.
This. Oh and also, the whole academy thing just seems like bad advertisment to me. What you want is to get new good players in vVv so you started this "academy topic" to make it look cool. But seriously... you are just saying that you are going to do the exact same thing that every other big teams do, try to recruit known players that are probably already sponsored but who get less from their sponsors than you can offer them from yours. Anyway you just made it look like you know nothing about marketting. This whole post make vVv looks like a bunch of amateurs.
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This actually seems like a decent opportunity for amateurs to get better and start attending LANs. That said, the representatives of vVv in this thread have made some key mistakes. First, the OP was poorly and ambiguously worded. Had people understood that you're not going to be insta-dropped from the academy if you miss one MLG much of this shitstorm could have been avoided. Second, its not exactly good for your case to call everybody disagreeing with you a troll or an idiot. I agree with Diamond, if you can see that people don't understand your OP you should try your best to explain it to them, rather than saying that they're an idiot who doesn't understand business. All in all, if vVv learns anything from this experience, it's that they should keep their cool when dealing with a community on an open forum. Good luck to applicants and vVv!
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OK -- to give people a perspective on the academy, here's my story with the vVv academy:
I joined the academy as a community player about 2 months after it origionally came out. There was no cash or gear incentive for joining the academy, but only the promise of this: You will become a better player.
Now, for the definition of "better player." Here's just how much the academy changed my perspective on getting sponsored by any organization in Starcraft 2 (and esports). When I walked into the academy, I thought that if I reached a certain skill level I would be sponsored, people would throw money and gear into my face, and I would be a successful Starcraft 2 player. The academy's offering of structured practice (HOW LONG to practice, WHEN to practice, HOW to practice, and WHO to practice with) made me reach a considerable skill level. I am now currently practicing with a variaty of players from vVv, iP, the korean proteam Psw, ect. Well, I was in for a shocker. Here's a main thing that vVv taught me: Your skill level isn't the main component to getting sponsored. It's appearance. Let me explain:
Put yourself in the shoes of a sponsor. Let's just say steelseries since this is one of vVv great sponsors. When a player puts himself in frount of steelseries and asks to be sponsored, steelseries has to have solid information that the player will produce $ for steelseries. This money is made primarily for advertising steelseries gear at lans and primarily MLGs. Now, I'll put myself up to this test. I am a very good player, but have no lan achievements. For me to ask steelseries to give me gear and tranportation money to go to MLG, what assurance can I give them that I will suceed? There is none. Without steelseries having evidence that I will go to a lan and have success they have zero assurance that I won't just get knocked out in the first 2 rounds of the tournament. They also don't know if I will do or say something that will put steelseries in a negative light since they have no evidence of how I will react in frount of a huge crowd and possible live interview.
So, pretty much here's what vVv academy has done for me. It has increased my skill level considerably and improved myself as a player. I needed to clean up my attitude, and that was done by working closely with the managers. I also needed to advertise myself as a player in order to establish a fan base, and again the managers helped me A LOT in this. It has also made me clearly know what I have to do in order TO BE sponsored. So, if you're a player who has a lot of talent but wants to move to the next level and become a progamer and recieve a sponsorship, this academy is for you. If you're a player who wants to continue to just be a ladder pro, then this academy isn't for you.
As a last word of advice: You have to be extremely passionate about gaming, Starcraft 2, and improving yourself in order to enter the pro scene.
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so glon after all this time you arent sponsored by vvv correct?
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On August 14 2011 15:43 alphafuzard wrote:
The aim of the academy is not clear in my eyes. Are you trying to pick up new players for the team? If so you should be more clear in the OP and more assuring of potential academy players that they can have a spot on the team when the deal is done. There is far too much demanding of dedication, without promising anything in return. As has been stated 100's of times, exact tournament placings have a large probability factor involved. The best player there is not guaranteed to win. You ask these players to shell out pocket money for a chance to join a second tier foreigner team. Not so classy.....
If this is more of a community-oriented training camp that may be used to scout for promising players, then it is a different story, but once again, there is a need for more transparency about what this program is about for people interested.
MOST IMPORTANTLY!!! In my opinion you all should answer peoples questions and concerns much more courteously than has been done so far. You are representing sponsors, many of these people are not. Take the high road
edit: I also don't understand why academy players have to outperform members. You act as if sponsoring a new player means kicking an old one out. All this talk about sticking with loyal members and building brands.....Notice how other teams recruiting is good for the whole team, such as when Liquid picks up a new member. It doesn't cut into the benefits of the other players as far as I know. win win!
I apologize that the OP didn't clearly explain the benefits of the Academy and seems to just leverage unreasonable or burdensome requirements without explaining the benefits.
Currently we have 1 open spot for a zerg player and are actually over-filled for Terran and Protoss. So in terms of recruiting new players, it's not a huge goal. If we find new talent that's great, but realistically I doubt we will find the next DongRaeGu from Academy applicants.
We want serious committed players who want to improve and develop personally. This is the reason for the requirements. For example, we don't demand that you show up to clan wars even if you aren't playing simply to waste your time. We ask you to come to critique each others games and offer advice. That way when you DO play you can rely on the same support from other Academy players to help you with critiques on what you need to work on or what you did well.
Likewise the point of accepting new applicants is to provide motivation for Academy players to practice regularly and ensure that they don't lose their place.
I could go on for each requirement but it's almost 3 AM and I doubt I would do an adequate job.
There is no guaranteed spot for Academy members to join the sponsored team, everything is based on performance.
I don't feel that demanding dedication is excessive, since if you want to succeed as a player you will need a demanding schedule regardless.
I feel like I've already adequately addressed the point on attending LANs.
I think I have addressed peoples questions courteously and defended the organization in other situations where needed. I don't think sponsors would want vVv representatives to allow people to simply get away with saying negative things about the organization they back or that we exploit players when we do not.
edit: I also don't understand why academy players have to outperform members. You act as if sponsoring a new player means kicking an old one out. All this talk about sticking with loyal members and building brands.....Notice how other teams recruiting is good for the whole team, such as when Liquid picks up a new member. It doesn't cut into the benefits of the other players as far as I know. win win!
If it was a perfect world we would sponsor 300 players and cover all expenses and give everyone a salary. As it is our organization has a limited budget to support all of the competitive titles we represent. We have currently allocated resources for 6 sponsored players, and it's not up to me to determine whether that number changes. Ideally if we had good talent we'd take on additional sponsored players, but unless the organization sees value in doing so my hands are tied.
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Your position's understandable; I would totally apply if I weren't still in Diamond. Good luck with it, and I hope you *do* find the next DongRaeGu.
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On August 14 2011 15:46 TheTrueAmerican wrote:i was giving a situation in which most organizations are in. he was saying he doesnt want to drop current sponsored players just because academy players might perform better. which means hes not going to have the strongest team that most organizations try to get. which also tells me they arent focused on having the best team but the most "good" players as possible represent them for the least cost. more of a quantity over quality thing by the looks of it.
I do not believe this is an accurate representation of our goals. We obviously want the best players who want to represent vVv Gaming and are willing to do so with the resources we are able to provide. If a player develops in the Academy that we feel can do better than the sponsored team that would be a consideration for whether we kept a current player or took on the new one. This is all very hypothetical and difficult to say anything concrete at this point. Suffice it to say vVv wants to develop talent and will reward that talent for performance.
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On August 14 2011 16:03 igLeX wrote:
This actually seems like a decent opportunity for amateurs to get better and start attending LANs. That said, the representatives of vVv in this thread have made some key mistakes. First, the OP was poorly and ambiguously worded. Had people understood that you're not going to be insta-dropped from the academy if you miss one MLG much of this shitstorm could have been avoided. Second, its not exactly good for your case to call everybody disagreeing with you a troll or an idiot. I agree with Diamond, if you can see that people don't understand your OP you should try your best to explain it to them, rather than saying that they're an idiot who doesn't understand business. All in all, if vVv learns anything from this experience, it's that they should keep their cool when dealing with a community on an open forum. Good luck to applicants and vVv!
As you will see if you read this thread I used the proper terms where appropriate. If someone asked questions about how the Academy would work then I answered their questions. If someone made accusations of vVv exploiting players or talking generally negative about vVv in a thread meant to garner attention about the opportunity to join our Academy team I referred to them as trolls since that is what they are. I feel that you need to take a more balanced look at the responses in this thread as there were some serious accusations leveled against vVv where me responding by calling them trolls was the MOST professional way of dealing with them.
As for the vagueness of the OP I agree.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 14 2011 15:16 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:54 Hossinaut wrote:Well, originally I was going to post my personal opinion on the matter, but I think I'll let others speak for me. From vVvSweep + Show Spoiler +If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult From SugarBear in one of his more offensive posts: + Show Spoiler + Actually, I sincerely apologize. I just realized how incredibly offensive it is to provide this opportunity to the SC2 community. I should have realized that people want to be stuck finding their own practice partners, finding contact info for sponsors, building their own fan base, and that every master level player is getting offers from top level organizations like EG and SK gaming left and right.
Oh wait. from iCCup.Diamond + Show Spoiler +Just for the record on the PR side of things (as I do PR and have done PR), repeatedly telling users they know nothing and you are too smart to explain it to them is not a good thing. From rei + Show Spoiler +@ vVvSweep
wow, I have been trying to defend you with every one of my post in this thread, now i feel like a dumb ass for saying all the unintelligent things when I was trying to help you guys out.
you really taught me a lot about being adult, and what it means to be smart, thank you so much on pointing out my mistakes. and you are right that I know nothing about owning a business, and i am no way consider myself an intelligent person, in fact I consider myself to be very stupid trying to be less stupid by getting help from others who are more intelligent than I am, such as yourself.
Again thank you for replying to me, i never thought someone as stupid as I am is actually worthy of the time you spend in typing out 6 paragraph of text trying to enlighten me. From Polskaa + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item
"classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end
I think we have made the the connection here.
I wont say it
But I will leave it to the people. From ExO_ + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:39 Jawmare wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
Sounds fishy
Nah that's standard practice for competitive e-sports right now. Unlike in sports such as football, teams do not generally divulge contract details outside of their organizations
(personal opinion INC)
Idk why anyone else hasn't commented on this being an issue. If SC2 wants to be an E-Sport, why isn't behaving like a real sport, where players' signings and salaries are widely known? Its pub and its good in my opinion- also makes it so the stronger teams survive while the weaker ones don't, which provides for higher levels of play, which is good. From TemplarRage + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
Are you implying that because we don't agree with your approach, we cannot possibly be serious about improving? Because I would love an opportunity like the one you're presenting. I'm in what seems to be a fairly unique position where I could probably manage to get myself to multiple MLGs this year, so I could fulfill that portion. But a lot of people aren't. I honestly cannot fathom how you and Sweep fail to understand that concept. I also cannot understand what makes you guys think that the approach you're taking ITT is at all in the best interest of this project.
From: Don't remember, didn't write it down + Show Spoiler + But wow. Wow, wow, wow the vVv representatives in this thread are dicks.
Quit being condescending, arrogant assholes to people asking honest questions about the workings and motivation of this academy. As a community we are entitled to ask questions and receive answers. If you think otherwise, don't bring your academy into the public light.
and another
On the other hand, a team trying to help and develop talented players who shown potential at the game is willing to pay their players and help them gain valuable offline lan experiences, even if said player don't show any results.
But then again, a person as intelligent as the vVvsweep, he has to be well aware of this fact, by even bring this up i'm actually insulting his intelligence.
He obviously has his reasons why he would propose for the players to pay for their own traveling to attend lan, and attending lan is a requirement to stay on the team. As for his reason, he need not let us know because there is no way someone as stupid as I am can even remotely come close to understanding the logic behind this complex business operation. Even if he were to try, it would be a major waste of time, and he has wasted enough time on me by even replying to my post which was trying to but unsuccessfully defend the honor of vVv. So if you read all that you have just read the compiled efforts of the thread up until now (the end of page 12 with vVvTime) and should probably have gotten the idea that vVv Gaming's representatives aren't very professional, nor is the deal they're selling very well thought out, especially when compared to this: On August 14 2011 14:21 Integra wrote:On August 14 2011 14:12 luckylefty wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys. This is spot on in my eyes, great post. This was the first odd thing that you noticed about their post?
How about the fact that they are posting a thing like this in the normal forums instead of the sponsor forums. Or the fact that they decide to post their application process and what rules you must follow instead of all the great benefits you will get if you join. I mean you can get all this information on their homepage, why not used a sponsored thread trying to hype it instead, they should take lessons from InControl, he knows how to do this properly. /my post TL;DR, this is a TL;DR for the thread :D I take exception to your selective quoting of my post. Taking that paragraph out of context is highly unprofessional and I hope you take more care in the future not to misquote people.
I agree completely, Hossinaut's post was completely unprofessional and I'm rather disappointed in him.
For those of you interested in reaching professional poster status, I am opening the JBA Academy to cultivate the very best writing talent in the community and provide them with full sponsorships towards other message boards.
To qualify for this prestigious Academy, you must participate in at least two of the following mediums, along with your regular forum posting: Twitter, Facebook, Google+, Blogspot, Xanga and Friendster.
We will provide you with the tools and training to reach your fullest professional posting abilities, and for those skilled enough to complete the rigorous training process, a complimentary copy of Spybot S&D awaits!
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On August 14 2011 16:31 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 16:03 igLeX wrote:
This actually seems like a decent opportunity for amateurs to get better and start attending LANs. That said, the representatives of vVv in this thread have made some key mistakes. First, the OP was poorly and ambiguously worded. Had people understood that you're not going to be insta-dropped from the academy if you miss one MLG much of this shitstorm could have been avoided. Second, its not exactly good for your case to call everybody disagreeing with you a troll or an idiot. I agree with Diamond, if you can see that people don't understand your OP you should try your best to explain it to them, rather than saying that they're an idiot who doesn't understand business. All in all, if vVv learns anything from this experience, it's that they should keep their cool when dealing with a community on an open forum. Good luck to applicants and vVv! As you will see if you read this thread I used the proper terms where appropriate. If someone asked questions about how the Academy would work then I answered their questions. If someone made accusations of vVv exploiting players or talking generally negative about vVv in a thread meant to garner attention about the opportunity to join our Academy team I referred to them as trolls since that is what they are. I feel that you need to take a more balanced look at the responses in this thread as there were some serious accusations leveled against vVv where me responding by calling them trolls was the MOST professional way of dealing with them. As for the vagueness of the OP I agree.
I did read the thread but I think for the sake of PR you still shouldn't call people trolls (even if they are). This is analogous to Alex Garfield sending an apology letter to the coach of TSL even though he didn't think it was appropriate. The people you call trolls may deserve it, but in the end nobody cares about them. People care that you, as a representative of vVv, bashed someone in the community. To be clear I agree with you that the people you are calling trolls deserve it, but I think you should look out for yourself and not damage your public image.
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On August 14 2011 16:37 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 15:16 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 14:54 Hossinaut wrote:Well, originally I was going to post my personal opinion on the matter, but I think I'll let others speak for me. From vVvSweep + Show Spoiler +If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult From SugarBear in one of his more offensive posts: + Show Spoiler + Actually, I sincerely apologize. I just realized how incredibly offensive it is to provide this opportunity to the SC2 community. I should have realized that people want to be stuck finding their own practice partners, finding contact info for sponsors, building their own fan base, and that every master level player is getting offers from top level organizations like EG and SK gaming left and right.
Oh wait. from iCCup.Diamond + Show Spoiler +Just for the record on the PR side of things (as I do PR and have done PR), repeatedly telling users they know nothing and you are too smart to explain it to them is not a good thing. From rei + Show Spoiler +@ vVvSweep
wow, I have been trying to defend you with every one of my post in this thread, now i feel like a dumb ass for saying all the unintelligent things when I was trying to help you guys out.
you really taught me a lot about being adult, and what it means to be smart, thank you so much on pointing out my mistakes. and you are right that I know nothing about owning a business, and i am no way consider myself an intelligent person, in fact I consider myself to be very stupid trying to be less stupid by getting help from others who are more intelligent than I am, such as yourself.
Again thank you for replying to me, i never thought someone as stupid as I am is actually worthy of the time you spend in typing out 6 paragraph of text trying to enlighten me. From Polskaa + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item
"classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end
I think we have made the the connection here.
I wont say it
But I will leave it to the people. From ExO_ + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:39 Jawmare wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
Sounds fishy
Nah that's standard practice for competitive e-sports right now. Unlike in sports such as football, teams do not generally divulge contract details outside of their organizations
(personal opinion INC)
Idk why anyone else hasn't commented on this being an issue. If SC2 wants to be an E-Sport, why isn't behaving like a real sport, where players' signings and salaries are widely known? Its pub and its good in my opinion- also makes it so the stronger teams survive while the weaker ones don't, which provides for higher levels of play, which is good. From TemplarRage + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
Are you implying that because we don't agree with your approach, we cannot possibly be serious about improving? Because I would love an opportunity like the one you're presenting. I'm in what seems to be a fairly unique position where I could probably manage to get myself to multiple MLGs this year, so I could fulfill that portion. But a lot of people aren't. I honestly cannot fathom how you and Sweep fail to understand that concept. I also cannot understand what makes you guys think that the approach you're taking ITT is at all in the best interest of this project.
From: Don't remember, didn't write it down + Show Spoiler + But wow. Wow, wow, wow the vVv representatives in this thread are dicks.
Quit being condescending, arrogant assholes to people asking honest questions about the workings and motivation of this academy. As a community we are entitled to ask questions and receive answers. If you think otherwise, don't bring your academy into the public light.
and another
On the other hand, a team trying to help and develop talented players who shown potential at the game is willing to pay their players and help them gain valuable offline lan experiences, even if said player don't show any results.
But then again, a person as intelligent as the vVvsweep, he has to be well aware of this fact, by even bring this up i'm actually insulting his intelligence.
He obviously has his reasons why he would propose for the players to pay for their own traveling to attend lan, and attending lan is a requirement to stay on the team. As for his reason, he need not let us know because there is no way someone as stupid as I am can even remotely come close to understanding the logic behind this complex business operation. Even if he were to try, it would be a major waste of time, and he has wasted enough time on me by even replying to my post which was trying to but unsuccessfully defend the honor of vVv. So if you read all that you have just read the compiled efforts of the thread up until now (the end of page 12 with vVvTime) and should probably have gotten the idea that vVv Gaming's representatives aren't very professional, nor is the deal they're selling very well thought out, especially when compared to this: On August 14 2011 14:21 Integra wrote:On August 14 2011 14:12 luckylefty wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys. This is spot on in my eyes, great post. This was the first odd thing that you noticed about their post?
How about the fact that they are posting a thing like this in the normal forums instead of the sponsor forums. Or the fact that they decide to post their application process and what rules you must follow instead of all the great benefits you will get if you join. I mean you can get all this information on their homepage, why not used a sponsored thread trying to hype it instead, they should take lessons from InControl, he knows how to do this properly. /my post TL;DR, this is a TL;DR for the thread :D I take exception to your selective quoting of my post. Taking that paragraph out of context is highly unprofessional and I hope you take more care in the future not to misquote people. I agree completely, Hossinaut's post was completely unprofessional and I'm rather disappointed in him. For those of you interested in reaching professional poster status, I am opening the JBA Academy to cultivate the very best writing talent in the community and provide them with full sponsorships towards other message boards. To qualify for this prestigious Academy, you must participate in at least two of the following mediums, along with your regular forum posting: Twitter, Facebook, Google+, Blogspot, Xanga and Friendster. We will provide you with the tools and training to reach your fullest professional posting abilities, and for those skilled enough to complete the rigorous training process, a complimentary copy of Spybot S&D awaits!
Ahahahahahah. Man this is too good.
Really looking forward to some more information/clarification put into the original post. vVv Hwaiting ^^
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I want to ask if only American players can apply or others countries are allowed too?
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On August 14 2011 15:05 SugarBear wrote:
So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player?
Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
Define 'outperform' in terms of listing vVv's LAN accomplishments, so I know exactly which LANs to attend in order to reach said magical expectation. I'll make it easier, list a major online tournament win that isn't a team league.
In the end I honestly don't care, but I think this recruitment model has done good things for vVv by bringing you tons of attention (albeit almost 100% negative) when you had nothing else to promote. Brilliant job in PR, but the basic structuring of the proposed recruitment model is so flawed it's hard to take it seriously at all. You might as well just ask for each potential member to pay monthly dues to have the privilege of wearing the vVv tag and hang out with Time and Alej all day (which is so tempting I might just do it).
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On August 14 2011 16:05 Glon wrote:
OK -- to give people a perspective on the academy, here's my story with the vVv academy:
I joined the academy as a community player about 2 months after it origionally came out. There was no cash or gear incentive for joining the academy, but only the promise of this: You will become a better player.
Now, for the definition of "better player." Here's just how much the academy changed my perspective on getting sponsored by any organization in Starcraft 2 (and esports). When I walked into the academy, I thought that if I reached a certain skill level I would be sponsored, people would throw money and gear into my face, and I would be a successful Starcraft 2 player. The academy's offering of structured practice (HOW LONG to practice, WHEN to practice, HOW to practice, and WHO to practice with) made me reach a considerable skill level. I am now currently practicing with a variaty of players from vVv, iP, the korean proteam Psw, ect. Well, I was in for a shocker. Here's a main thing that vVv taught me: Your skill level isn't the main component to getting sponsored. It's appearance. Let me explain:
Put yourself in the shoes of a sponsor. Let's just say steelseries since this is one of vVv great sponsors. When a player puts himself in frount of steelseries and asks to be sponsored, steelseries has to have solid information that the player will produce $ for steelseries. This money is made primarily for advertising steelseries gear at lans and primarily MLGs. Now, I'll put myself up to this test. I am a very good player, but have no lan achievements. For me to ask steelseries to give me gear and tranportation money to go to MLG, what assurance can I give them that I will suceed? There is none. Without steelseries having evidence that I will go to a lan and have success they have zero assurance that I won't just get knocked out in the first 2 rounds of the tournament. They also don't know if I will do or say something that will put steelseries in a negative light since they have no evidence of how I will react in frount of a huge crowd and possible live interview.
So, pretty much here's what vVv academy has done for me. It has increased my skill level considerably and improved myself as a player. I needed to clean up my attitude, and that was done by working closely with the managers. I also needed to advertise myself as a player in order to establish a fan base, and again the managers helped me A LOT in this. It has also made me clearly know what I have to do in order TO BE sponsored. So, if you're a player who has a lot of talent but wants to move to the next level and become a progamer and recieve a sponsorship, this academy is for you. If you're a player who wants to continue to just be a ladder pro, then this academy isn't for you.
As a last word of advice: You have to be extremely passionate about gaming, Starcraft 2, and improving yourself in order to enter the pro scene.
Well this helps explain it a bit. The OP just makes me terribly confused >_<
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So, what has vVv done in competitive SC2 at this point? What are their top MLG/IEM/NASL/TSL places? I feel like I only see their members doing small cups.
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On August 14 2011 15:05 SugarBear wrote:
So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player?
Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
Define 'outperform' in terms of listing vVv's LAN accomplishments, so I know exactly which LANs to attend in order to reach said magical expectation. I'll make it easier, list a major online tournament win that isn't a team league.
In the end I honestly don't care, but I think this recruitment model has done good things for vVv by bringing you tons of attention (albeit almost 100% negative) when you had nothing else to promote. Brilliant job in PR, but the basic structuring of the proposed recruitment model is so flawed it's hard to take it seriously at all. You might as well just ask for each potential member to pay monthly dues to have the privilege of wearing the vVv tag and hang out with Time and Alej all day (which is so tempting I might just do it).
This.. is gold.. and i wonder why this post hasnt been closed already because seriously, its only people complaining about how poor/flawed/confusing/arrogant is the OP. Oh and i think i outperform vVv members since i won triple strike cup twice.. during the beta. LOL
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On August 14 2011 12:51 duk3 wrote:
You guys are mistaken if you think TL is a terrible community, if anyone in this thread was trolling they would have been warned/banned.
Basically, what nearly everyone in this thread has been saying is that your supposed requirements regarding lans are unreasonable, and this is reflected in your lack of applicants.
The response to this has been telling us that we are stupid, not the best PR there.
Ironically, I think the only guy who trolled vVv in this thead was him:
On August 14 2011 06:11 OmniscientSC2 wrote:
I'm going to next two MLGs. put me in coach!~
Good luck to all applicants!
but I could be mistaken of course. ;P
Also, SugarBear and Sweep... if you feel that condescension is an adequate response to criticism, maybe you should not be doing PR work.
+ Show Spoiler +Very interesting thread nonetheless.
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Here are my thoughts
I agree a truly aspiring Pro player should WANT to go to MLGs, but may not be able to AFFORD it.
If someone is able to afford to go to MLGs and can place highly, I am pretty sure there would be other teams interested in picking him up, depending on where they place.
what is vVv offering that other teams are not?
Why can you not use online tournaments as a qualifier, maybe give the top finishers in your/some online tournaments some travel allowance or something.
I can say that if i joined the academy, went to MLG on my own money and placed 30th or something, I would not feel obligated to sign with vVv if i had other options.
Also why join the academy in the first place? (aside from free keyboard) I could go to MLG on my own money and if i placed and still couldnt find a sponsor, then I can come back to vVv and say hey i placed 30th last MLG is that good enough for a sponsor? etc
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This thread is very indicative of how Clan vVv is run as a whole... terribly. The only thing that stands out about your clan is the severe immaturity and rage after losing clan wars and ladder games (and now immaturity in a major public forum as well).
Let me put this another way... a 'vVv' player has never won any major tournament ever, and you're expecting people to jump at the chance to represent you? Great business model there.
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On August 14 2011 15:05 SugarBear wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 14:49 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:41 vVvTime wrote:
I can't say what the academy's plan is, but if you join the academy me, alej, hasuu, murder, titan and ruff will play practice games with you and if you're protoss you can chill with alej and I all day.
That's all I'm going to say in this thread. What i dont understand is their expectations, they expect academy members to outperform the current members to get a place on the team quote from babysteps "The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team..." So an academy member training with you guys is supposed to take what you have taught him, and outperform everyone on the team, to get a shot at being on VVV after covering their own expenses to go to these lans in the first place.... On August 14 2011 14:20 antelope591 wrote:
Seems like a decent opportunity for up and comers to get better practice in a more structured environment. If they left out the whole attending and doing good at big lans thing they would've been ok. Just kinda hilarious to even mention that when none of their players have done jack shit at a major LAN (kinda harsh but yea)...so why would someone who can place highly at a lan even want to join vVv? I don't know what their teams are like in other games but they ain't exactly dignitas or mouz in SC2. On August 14 2011 14:12 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:47 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs. The requirements you're speaking of would be the requirements for moving onto the sponsored team. Of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the sponsored team... Wait what? Why "of course you would have to do better than the currently sponsored players to earn a spot on the team"?? That doesnt really make sense , especially in a VVV academy setting where the players are up and comers looking to improve. How are they supposed to improve if they are already supposed to be better than the players they are training with at the academy? This seems screwed up, so you have to outperform everyone on the VVV team to even get a spot , even though that shouldnt be too hard considering their results, its ridiculous that they have higher expectations of someone who isnt sponsored / has to pay their own way to lans, then they do of people who are already sponsored on their team. That seems totally backwards. So you want us to drop our longstanding loyal sponsored players to pick up an Academy player because they did *almost* as good at a LAN? Or if we have one player who has been committed and represented vVv for years and someone from the Academy places equal at an MLG we should drop the sponsored player to pick up the Academy player? Like I said, obviously the Academy players would have to outperform the sponsored players in order to get picked up.
You gotta be kidding me. Academy members get the boot if they flunk out a monthly qualifier, but legacy A team members get a free ride despite total lack of results? Thats messed up. For someone citing ROI you need to look at the ROI of your current players first.
I loathe to say it, but you're killing esports.
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On August 14 2011 13:41 MileyCyrus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs. Might want to do a bit of research, i was one of those at Anaheim. Im not on the A-team, i went for fun. Might want to do some research on the other people who wore the vVv tag there as well ^_^
I'm curious, who was there with the VVV tag? Like I mentioned in my post, I only got my data from TLPD. I can name probably 50-60 pro SC2 westerners, and I don't know a single one on VVV offhand.
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Wow, so you basicly have to pay for representing VVV? In IB thats called a scam and if I look at VVV's performance, they don't even have the results to back up their arrogance.
Good luck finding people being dumb enough to waste their money promoting you instead of going there on their own and getting a REAL team.
btw: If you talk about ROI, you should maybe try to invest some money.
btw 2: If you invest in m&a, the break even point is next to never at 0, its more like 3 years from starting. So you might wanna take a look at the facts and don't try to bullshit people with something every businessmen will laugh about.
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Hey. I'm playing on a sponsored team myself and I'm not sure if you are serious about what you are writing. Don't get me wrong - its perfectly fine to ask for dedication and set requirements such as the player has to attend to meetings and clanwars even if he does not play.
Its also good that someone should leave a note if he can't attend for some reason and it should and I think will be tolerated if it doesn't happen all the time. On the other hand I really can't believe you are serious about what you write.
I'm not so much into the NA teams, but I still know quiet some players and as far as I know vVv is no top tier team (no offence) and neither of the players have placed highly or even decent in a MAJOR (MLG, IEM, WCG (no WCG yet), DreamHack) tournament.
If you want to search talents and give them a chance to proof themselves its okay, but you can't expect the talents to give all their dedication and time for the chance of not getting picked up. You either have to invest some money into it or change your recruitment system.
Its very costly to travel to major LAN tournaments and a high risk as you can easily drop a game or a series to an inferior player. In my opinion you should - if you want to recruit talents - host a long term (can vary by definition.. ) tournament with lots of players who are interested. The players who win will for example represent vVv at an major LAN event like Assembly, MLG etc. (and you pay the costs for it!)
This way you are giving the player a chance to proof himself in a tournament situation and you might get a lot of info about the player, but I feel like you are asking way too much. You are basically asking for dedication (fine), time (fine) and money TO BE REPRESENTED. No rising / good player would probably have interest in representing a team and have all the costs while not evening being guaranteed to have a deal out of it.
If you were a top tier team (mousesports for example has a talent-program) it would probably a big honor to represent you at a major tournament and also make a name for yourself as you are wearing a really prestigeous clan-tag, but I feel like you want yourself be represented without taking any risk which is not the way to go or attract good players.
Just my 2 cents, its fine if you disagree.
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I would just like to say that almost everything posted in this thread by vVvSweep and Sugarbear has shown that vVv is run VERY unprofessionally. You even have real professionals trying to help you understand this (iCCup.Diamond and mTw|NarutO). This idea that you have that prospective applicants need to provide for you (pay to represent vVv at major events) before you are even willing to discuss a deal is not how business is done. Do us a favor and we might be able to work something out is how the mafia works. After seeing this thread and the way vVv has responded time and time again, (if I were someone looking for an opportunity to play professionally for a team) I wouldn't want to represent vVv. Much less pay to do so.
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I find it astonishing how almost everyone on this thread is on the same page about what vVv is doing wrong yet they continue to try and defend themselves in a very offensive manner. Out of 14 pages there has maybe been under 10 (maybe 5 or so) positive posts. The rest arent even trolls as they claim, rather people giving their oppinion about what they dislike/ what doesnt seem write about this academy program. Instead of dismissing everyone / calling them trolls vVv should have taken this as an opportunity to improve. If they didnt want people being critical they shouldnt have posted it on a forum, where people actually have oppinions they should have just put it on their website.
No talented gamer in their right mind is going to be attracted by this offer (and thats what you guys are looking for right? up and coming talented gamers?) If a player can place well at an event like MLG and has to pay for themselves anyways they may as well just do it without having to wear the vVv tag , and if they place well they will have more prestigious teams willing to pick them up and actually support them.
This is what i really dont understand though, if you become part of the vVv academy you get to train with the members of vVv as far as i understand. Heres the catch though somehow from training with their members you have to exceed their skill and place better than them at major lans to even be considered as a sponsored member of vVv. This i find ludicrous, especially considering the current caliber of VvV players (no offense) they havent placed well in any major lans yet AT ALL. When is the last time you have seen a vVv member in the top 10 of even the top 32 of a major lan event? Do you ever even see them get invited to any of the big invitationals? As far as i can remember you see them in none of those things.
So its kind of ridiculous to require an up and coming vVv academy member to outperform the players that are training him, when those players are having trouble placing anywhere near the top 20 in any major lans. It just doesnt make sense. Thats not usually how it works, teams looking for up and coming talent usually they will scout players placing well in online tournaments then offer to cultivate them within the team and give them an environment where they can excel.
Obviously that usually happens with players who are exceptional, but i would assume that vVv is looking for exceptional players, they just want to do it without any risks.
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First, I want to apologize for this thread. As the president and owner, I should have reviewed the contents more specifically before letting my academy manager post this thread on TL.
I also apologize for my staff calling any of you "trolls." Many of you have legitimate concerns, critiques and you brought up fair questions. I saw the OP and then the edited OP. Neither was very good. My staff responded in a way that clearly shows I did not do my job in training them in the basics of public relations, and for that, I also take responsibility for the failure. I take full responsibility, and ask if we can hit the reset switch on this.
Our top goal with the academy is to develop players. Period. We want a robust process that includes monthly tournaments in the following framework:
1) players constantly evolving.
2) a challenge system such that puts constant development pressure on the player
3) reward players with good gear for playing at a level that has them maintain their position for 90 days
4) a LAN focus with the idea that if they can perform well, we can start to offset costs. (I.e. hotel, etc).
5)We don't want players to come here for a free ride. I think our staff was trying to say that we expect a lot from our sponsored players, and there was way too much emphasis on this.
So, again, please accept my apologies. I ask you all to please tell me what YOU would like to see from an academy. We do this for YOU. We do not do this for PR (and if we did, boy did that backfire, lol).
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On August 15 2011 00:15 LordJerith wrote:
First, I want to apologize for this thread. As the president and owner, I should have reviewed the contents more specifically before letting my academy manager post this thread on TL.
I also apologize for my staff calling any of you "trolls." Many of you have legitimate concerns, critiques and you brought up fair questions. I saw the OP and then the edited OP. Neither was very good. My staff responded in a way that clearly shows I did not do my job in training them in the basics of public relations, and for that, I also take responsibility for the failure. I take full responsibility, and ask if we can hit the reset switch on this.
Our top goal with the academy is to develop players. Period. We want a robust process that includes monthly tournaments in the following framework:
1) players constantly evolving.
2) a challenge system such that puts constant development pressure on the player
3) reward players with good gear for playing at a level that has them maintain their position for 90 days
4) a LAN focus with the idea that if they can perform well, we can start to offset costs. (I.e. hotel, etc).
5)We don't want players to come here for a free ride. I think our staff was trying to say that we expect a lot from our sponsored players, and there was way too much emphasis on this.
So, again, please accept my apologies. I ask you all to please tell me what YOU would like to see from an academy. We do this for YOU. We do not do this for PR (and if we did, boy did that backfire, lol).
I think the main concern is the fact that it is so expensive to go to lans that anyone who is detirmined and can afford to go to Lans wouldn't need to join vvv to do so and would have a chance of getting picked up by other people who may offer them a better package.
I think lots of people were saying if the primary goal is to develop talent then the biggest factor preventing that is the cost of going to Lans and vvv isnt solving that with this program.
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What if we covered the hotel cost for the top 3 academy members? Looking to understand what you think would help.
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Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you were trying to find ways to get people to recognize you and get publicity and you came up with this, a half assed put together "academy" meant to make you guys look good. I think you guys deserve what this thread has turned into.
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that sounds pretty ridiculous since you have pretty much no guarantee that your academy members will perform. i'm not sure why there's even an issue with having a b-team that gets an opportunity to practice with pro players but no sponsorship. i think the major problem that everyone has is that your b-team is supposed to massively outperform your a-team to have a chance at being part of the team proper, but your a-team isn't even good compared to other NA teams. basically your academy members are held to higher standards than the actual pro vVv team with none of the benefits.
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What I would like to see from an academy is
1) reward based on effort, not lan results. The reasoning behind this that your recruit managers have the responsibility to spot talents, and your coaching staff will be responsible to raise this talents, if they have done their job, the players with talents and effort will eventually yield results on lan. and if the players don't get the expected results, the one should take responsibility lies on the managers and coaches.
2)a challenge system that internally ranks your recruits, if a recruit places last they get remove after a week, this way you keep your recruit managers busy. In the same time this will result in competitiveness between recruits and pressure on them to preform internally. The idea is that if you don't get better faster than your peers you will be removed.
So you reward your top internal ranked players with traveling expenses, to lan to see if they yield results, if they don't then blame it on the coaches and your recruit managers. they obviously either failed at assessing the talents or didn't provide a solid coaching curriculum. Because it can't be the player's fault if your player have been playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week and ranked on top of your internal ranking. At that point you look for new coaches and new recruitment managers.
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On August 15 2011 00:47 shinyA wrote:
Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you're just trying to benefit yourselves and get publicity disguised as something for aspiring players which is pretty pathetic and reflects very poorly on vVv as a whole which can obviously be seen in this thread.
Our goal is to develop players. Plain and simple. What do you think we can do to correct the impression moving forward?
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On August 15 2011 00:48 rauk wrote:
that sounds pretty ridiculous since you have pretty much no guarantee that your academy members will perform. i'm not sure why there's even an issue with having a b-team that gets an opportunity to practice with pro players but no sponsorship. i think the major problem that everyone has is that your b-team is supposed to massively outperform your a-team to have a chance at being part of the team proper, but your a-team isn't even good compared to other NA teams. basically your academy members are held to higher standards than the actual pro vVv team with none of the benefits.
That was presented horribly, and by no means are they expected to out perform our sponsored players. So, I want to make that is clear.
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On August 15 2011 00:55 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:47 shinyA wrote:
Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you're just trying to benefit yourselves and get publicity disguised as something for aspiring players which is pretty pathetic and reflects very poorly on vVv as a whole which can obviously be seen in this thread. Our goal is to develop players. Plain and simple. What do you think we can do to correct the impression moving forward?
If your goal is to foster talent then how about you hold a tournament or some sort of ranking system and pay for the top player on that tournament/ranking system to go to an event within reasonable cost.
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On August 15 2011 00:50 rei wrote:
What I would like to see from an academy is
1) reward based on effort, not lan results. The reasoning behind this that your recruit managers have the responsibility to spot talents, and your coaching staff will be responsible to raise this talents, if they have done their job, the players with talents and effort will eventually yield results on lan. and if the players don't get the expected results, the one should take responsibility lies on the managers and coaches.
2)a challenge system that internally ranks your recruits, if a recruit places last they get remove after a week, this way you keep your recruit managers busy. In the same time this will result in competitiveness between recruits and pressure on them to preform internally. The idea is that if you don't get better faster than your peers you will be removed.
So you reward your top internal ranked players with traveling expenses, to lan to see if they yield results, if they don't then blame it on the coaches and your recruit managers. they obviously either failed at assessing the talents or didn't provide a solid coaching curriculum. Because it can't be the player's fault if your player have been playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week and ranked on top of your internal ranking. At that point you look for new coaches and new recruitment managers.
1)How do you quantify effort? Hours logged? Just wanting some clarification on how this would work.
2)Yes, we would have something like that, but monthly not weekly.
3)I do like the idea of holding the managers responsible, and we will use that. Great suggestion.
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On August 15 2011 00:55 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:47 shinyA wrote:
Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you're just trying to benefit yourselves and get publicity disguised as something for aspiring players which is pretty pathetic and reflects very poorly on vVv as a whole which can obviously be seen in this thread. Our goal is to develop players. Plain and simple. What do you think we can do to correct the impression moving forward?
Practice. Sending players to LAN's when they haven't shown potential online to perform well is pointless.
If I were in your shoes I would do something like this:
- Have players who meet your requirements ( something like ladder rank ) apply to be apart of the academy. You can do like complexity did with the youtube submissions.
- Once accepted there will be weekly matches with current vVv members, the results would be kept track of week by week to show who performs the best and who is improving. Mix in tournaments with academy members only and just get a good system in place to keep score.
- During the end of whatever length it goes on for, whoever does the best or wins or however you want to pick a winner gets all expenses paid trip to MLG representing vVv.
That wasn't hard
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On August 15 2011 00:59 Zaros wrote:
If your goal is to foster talent then how about you hold a tournament or some sort of ranking system and pay for the top player on that tournament/ranking system to go to an event within reasonable cost.
Yup. We will do that with monthly tournaments that are casted. We were thinking of covering lodging for their first event.
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On August 15 2011 01:01 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:55 LordJerith wrote:On August 15 2011 00:47 shinyA wrote:
Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you're just trying to benefit yourselves and get publicity disguised as something for aspiring players which is pretty pathetic and reflects very poorly on vVv as a whole which can obviously be seen in this thread. Our goal is to develop players. Plain and simple. What do you think we can do to correct the impression moving forward? Practice. Sending players to LAN's when they haven't shown potential online to perform well is pointless. If I were in your shoes I would do something like this: - Have players who meet your requirements ( something like ladder rank ) apply to be apart of the academy. You can do like complexity did with the youtube submissions. - Once accepted there will be weekly matches with current vVv members, the results would be kept track of week by week to show who performs the best and who is improving. Mix in tournaments with academy members only and just get a good system in place to keep score. - During the end of whatever length it goes on for, whoever does the best or wins or however you want to pick a winner gets all expenses paid trip to MLG representing vVv. That wasn't hard
-Yes, we have an application process
-Agreed
-we would not do all expenses paid, but we would cover hotel costs and assess after first LAN performance. But maybe you are right? Maybe we should cover all of travel?
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For me the bad thing is LAN presence which is disscused through the topic. I will place here example of mine: I am 16 boy from Europe so I don't have a full-time job, also my parents aren't rich enough for trip to America, and even tho I am high master and I meet requirements I am not gonna apply due to those LAN's.
The point is that you shouldn't care that much about lans, on master/grandmaster level results from online tournaments means a lot, while Lans are for already for true pros.
I see that academy like a group of people who have their time (for example 90 days) of hard training with clan members for free and then after that time 3 best academy players will have a chance to go for a LAN which will be sponsored by the team. (At least it would be best for me :D)
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Ok i Filled out an application to join vVv and i told them that i would be able to attend the mlg's only in California as i cannot afford to just fly out to where the mlg's are. This is what they replied with.
"In order to be in the academy, you cant miss 2 consecutive major events, such as MLG. Plus there the last MLG event was in California, and there wont be another one in California till MAYBE next season. " That was from vVv Radiation. Soooo no way that im joining.
Edit: typo
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On August 15 2011 01:02 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:59 Zaros wrote:
If your goal is to foster talent then how about you hold a tournament or some sort of ranking system and pay for the top player on that tournament/ranking system to go to an event within reasonable cost.
Yup. We will do that with monthly tournaments that are casted. We were thinking of covering lodging for their first event.
I know you dont have loads of cash to spare and i dont want to sound ungratefull but i think to alot of people lodging costs are one of the smaller costs to going to a Major Lan such as Dreamhack MLG IEM unless you are very near by. Travel costs depending on where you live are going to be the major factor.
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On August 15 2011 00:34 LordJerith wrote:
What if we covered the hotel cost for the top 3 academy members? Looking to understand what you think would help.
From a personal standpoint I honestly think that the only real correction you need to make to the academy is to take away the LAN requirement for evaluation and allow Online Cups to be one of the ways you judge players.
Personally I would like to join the academy and improve as a player but I will let you know now that I absolutely DO NOT have any kind of money to be able to afford to go to any MLG's or LAN events, so if it's a requirement to even go to 1 a year then I'm unable to go.
However if I'm able to join GIGABYTE Cup or CraftCup and win a few times or whatever and that counts then I'd be much more willing and able to participate.
I truly don't have any problem with you cutting the under-performing members, but when finances are involved in how you cut your players then I kind of have a problem.
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On August 15 2011 01:08 Netto. wrote:
For me the bad thing is LAN presence which is disscused through the topic. I will place here example of mine: I am 16 boy from Europe so I don't have a full-time job, also my parents aren't rich enough for trip to America, and even tho I am high master and I meet requirements I am not gonna apply due to those LAN's.
The point is that you shouldn't care that much about lans, on master/grandmaster level results from online tournaments means a lot, while Lans are for already for true pros.
I see that academy like a group of people who have their time (for example 90 days) of hard training with clan members for free and then after that time 3 best academy players will have a chance to go for a LAN which will be sponsored by the team. (At least it would be best for me :D)
There is no LAN requirement. It is removed, and all posts will be edited to remove the requirement.
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Thanks for posting in this thread! ^_^
If you goal is to develop players, it seems a lot of the stuff is right-- show up to clan wars, practice with us, review each others games, etc. This will help people improve as players, obviously. Of course, you want these players to be improving to the point where they play at a level you could be interested in sponsoring them. I agree with the idea of an internal ranking/tournament system that helps keep things competitive and foster improvement.
I also think you should start by asking players to participate in online tournaments/KOTHs, so that they can have the chance to play better players than themselves and compete. An online tournament only really costs time though, as there are no travel costs that could be prohibitive to someone starting out and looking to prove themselves.
Then after X amount of time in which people have been practicing, competing internally, and also competing in smaller online tournaments (smaller in prize pool, but you can still play some very high level players), choose a few players to receive a bit of financial help going to a major LAN based off their performance (this doesn't even have to be all, but paying for a shared hotel room, or something even would be quite good).
I am sure most people would agree this is much more fair. It is not that the time commitment is bad-- if someone is serious about going pro/semi-pro, they know they have to put the time in. But to put the time in and also come up with enough money for flights and hotel rooms, etc to attend LANs seems like way too much to ask from someone. If they are not pro yet, of course they will need someone to support them, or a job. Since the team's not supporting them monetarily yet, it just seems like way too much to ask of someone right off. Basically they would need a full time job to support a full time job of SC2.
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On August 15 2011 01:13 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:08 Netto. wrote:
For me the bad thing is LAN presence which is disscused through the topic. I will place here example of mine: I am 16 boy from Europe so I don't have a full-time job, also my parents aren't rich enough for trip to America, and even tho I am high master and I meet requirements I am not gonna apply due to those LAN's.
The point is that you shouldn't care that much about lans, on master/grandmaster level results from online tournaments means a lot, while Lans are for already for true pros.
I see that academy like a group of people who have their time (for example 90 days) of hard training with clan members for free and then after that time 3 best academy players will have a chance to go for a LAN which will be sponsored by the team. (At least it would be best for me :D) There is no LAN requirement. It is removed, and all posts will be edited to remove the requirement.
Holy Buckets I think I might put in an app now :o
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@Netto yes we accept all countries: ex) vVvRantech is one of Chile's top Starcraft 2 player and he is on the academy
@aquanda I realize your pain. Put yourself in my shoes -- I was basically told no matter how good I got I wouldn't be sponsored without MLG results. Once you're part of the academy you can work closely with A team coaches, academy coaches, ect to define what you have to do specifically to outperform
@Zdrastochye if you were serious about joining vVv I'm sure that with some searching on vvv-gaming.com you could find our achievements within 5 minutes. Since you're obviously not serious in joining the academy, I feel no reason to do that work for you
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On August 15 2011 01:09 Deception-35 wrote:
Ok i Filled out an application to join vVv and i told them that i would be able to attend the mlg's only in California as i cannot afford to just fly out to where the mlg's are. This is what they replied with.
"In order to be in the academy, you cant miss 2 consecutive major events, such as MLG. Plus there the last MLG event was in California, and there wont be another one in California till MAYBE next season. " That was from vVv Radiation. Soooo no way that im joining.
Edit: typo
There is NO LAN requirement. We will remove it.
vVv Radiation was quoting an old post. Sorry.
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I would like to know more about how the monthly placement tournament is going to be structured. Is it going to be a single bracket? What if I'm having an off day and lose to a lesser player first round, does that mean I'm out of academy until the next month?
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On August 15 2011 01:17 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:09 Deception-35 wrote:
Ok i Filled out an application to join vVv and i told them that i would be able to attend the mlg's only in California as i cannot afford to just fly out to where the mlg's are. This is what they replied with.
"In order to be in the academy, you cant miss 2 consecutive major events, such as MLG. Plus there the last MLG event was in California, and there wont be another one in California till MAYBE next season. " That was from vVv Radiation. Soooo no way that im joining.
Edit: typo There is NO LAN requirement. We will remove it. vVv Radiation was quoting an old post. Sorry.
Oh thats GREAT i look forward to seeing if i can get on the team :D
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Oh and I forgot about a very important thing. (or I missed it) How much time do a player have to apply?
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On August 15 2011 01:14 RedJustice wrote:
Thanks for posting in this thread! ^_^
If you goal is to develop players, it seems a lot of the stuff is right-- show up to clan wars, practice with us, review each others games, etc. This will help people improve as players, obviously. Of course, you want these players to be improving to the point where they play at a level you could be interested in sponsoring them. I agree with the idea of an internal ranking/tournament system that helps keep things competitive and foster improvement.
I also think you should start by asking players to participate in online tournaments/KOTHs, so that they can have the chance to play better players than themselves and compete. An online tournament only really costs time though, as there are no travel costs that could be prohibitive to someone starting out and looking to prove themselves.
Then after X amount of time in which people have been practicing, competing internally, and also competing in smaller online tournaments (smaller in prize pool, but you can still play some very high level players), choose a few players to receive a bit of financial help going to a major LAN based off their performance (this doesn't even have to be all, but paying for a shared hotel room, or something even would be quite good).
I am sure most people would agree this is much more fair. It is not that the time commitment is bad-- if someone is serious about going pro/semi-pro, they know they have to put the time in. But to put the time in and also come up with enough money for flights and hotel rooms, etc to attend LANs seems like way too much to ask from someone. If they are not pro yet, of course they will need someone to support them, or a job. Since the team's not supporting them monetarily yet, it just seems like way too much to ask of someone right off. Basically they would need a full time job to support a full time job of SC2.
We will have monthly, casted tournaments for the academy. I agree we need to cover the expenses of at least the #1 academy member.
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Gl to vVv then! I think you will have a lot of very interested players willing to apply now! :D
EDIT: P.S. Might wanna ask Sweep to edit the OP with the change to the LAN requirement.
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On August 15 2011 01:01 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:50 rei wrote:
What I would like to see from an academy is
1) reward based on effort, not lan results. The reasoning behind this that your recruit managers have the responsibility to spot talents, and your coaching staff will be responsible to raise this talents, if they have done their job, the players with talents and effort will eventually yield results on lan. and if the players don't get the expected results, the one should take responsibility lies on the managers and coaches.
2)a challenge system that internally ranks your recruits, if a recruit places last they get remove after a week, this way you keep your recruit managers busy. In the same time this will result in competitiveness between recruits and pressure on them to preform internally. The idea is that if you don't get better faster than your peers you will be removed.
So you reward your top internal ranked players with traveling expenses, to lan to see if they yield results, if they don't then blame it on the coaches and your recruit managers. they obviously either failed at assessing the talents or didn't provide a solid coaching curriculum. Because it can't be the player's fault if your player have been playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week and ranked on top of your internal ranking. At that point you look for new coaches and new recruitment managers. 1)How do you quantify effort? Hours logged? Just wanting some clarification on how this would work. 2)Yes, we would have something like that, but monthly not weekly. 3)I do like the idea of holding the managers responsible, and we will use that. Great suggestion.
If you are talking about recruits playing from their home, then you have your recruits upload all their replays they played at the end of each day, there is a time stamp on the duration of each replay file, you can log their hours practiced for the day.(you need to create a personal replay upload thing in your vVv website, so your recruits can log on and upload)
Oh and its your coaching staff's job to go through all those bloody replays, and single out mistakes and errors, and shit to and post comments and suggestions behind each reply recruits upload. Make sure these comments can only be seen by that player, and make sure it notify the coach whether or not the player have click on the comments to read it.
TL is a huge resource, we will help you guys out with free ideas as long as we can see there is a potential in promoting further development of Esport.
PS. you might actually have to pay your coaches for doing this, going through all the replays will take a long ass time
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On August 15 2011 01:18 celious wrote:
I would like to know more about how the monthly placement tournament is going to be structured. Is it going to be a single bracket? What if I'm having an off day and lose to a lesser player first round, does that mean I'm out of academy until the next month?
Double elimination over a weekend with flexible times. It will be a Friday-Sun type of event.
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On August 15 2011 01:21 Netto. wrote:
Oh and I forgot about a very important thing. (or I missed it) How much time do a player have to apply?
Because of how this was handled, I would say we expect to hold our first tournament October 1st. Again, we will have a new thread on forums which will clear this up.
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So I have a time to apply up to first tournament right?
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On August 15 2011 01:26 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:01 LordJerith wrote:On August 15 2011 00:50 rei wrote:
What I would like to see from an academy is
1) reward based on effort, not lan results. The reasoning behind this that your recruit managers have the responsibility to spot talents, and your coaching staff will be responsible to raise this talents, if they have done their job, the players with talents and effort will eventually yield results on lan. and if the players don't get the expected results, the one should take responsibility lies on the managers and coaches.
2)a challenge system that internally ranks your recruits, if a recruit places last they get remove after a week, this way you keep your recruit managers busy. In the same time this will result in competitiveness between recruits and pressure on them to preform internally. The idea is that if you don't get better faster than your peers you will be removed.
So you reward your top internal ranked players with traveling expenses, to lan to see if they yield results, if they don't then blame it on the coaches and your recruit managers. they obviously either failed at assessing the talents or didn't provide a solid coaching curriculum. Because it can't be the player's fault if your player have been playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week and ranked on top of your internal ranking. At that point you look for new coaches and new recruitment managers. 1)How do you quantify effort? Hours logged? Just wanting some clarification on how this would work. 2)Yes, we would have something like that, but monthly not weekly. 3)I do like the idea of holding the managers responsible, and we will use that. Great suggestion. If you are talking about recruits playing from their home, then you have your recruits upload all their replays they played at the end of each day, there is a time stamp on the duration of each replay file, you can log their hours practiced for the day.(you need to create a personal replay upload thing in your vVv website, so your recruits can log on and upload) Oh and its your coaching staff's job to go through all those bloody replays, and single out mistakes and errors, and shit to and post comments and suggestions behind each reply recruits upload. Make sure these comments can only be seen by that player, and make sure it notify the coach whether or not the player have click on the comments to read it. TL is a huge resource, we will help you guys out with free ideas as long as we can see there is a potential in promoting further development of Esport. PS. you might actually have to pay your coaches for doing this, going through all the replays will take a long ass time
Interesting idea. I actually like it, and I agree we would have to compensate qualified managers/coaches for this. We may use our sponsored players in this role. Of course, we would then need to hold them accountable for the players performance if we compensate them, but I really like the idea. Thanks for this.
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On August 15 2011 01:29 Netto. wrote:
So I have a time to apply up to first tournament right?
Correct.
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GJ on the review.
Wish u all luck.
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seriously,
focus on online tournaments for your new and upcoming players, not lan. maybe have them go to a lan once or twice a year for just experience.
lan tournaments are just NOT feasible. there are plenty of talented and great players that were noticed by online results, and got sponsored. From this thread, sheth and nerchio come to mind. They got sponsored by legit teams through their online efforts. You should follow precedent and do the same. If you can take one game off of idra, even online, then you are GOING to get noticed.
Being a sponsor, it's all about advertisement and marketing. SC2 thrives through the internet, such as teamliquid, twitter, AND online tournaments. You are severely undervaluing what online tournaments can offer.
starting things off online present a much bigger and better opportunity.
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On August 15 2011 01:17 Glon wrote:
@Zdrastochye if you were serious about joining vVv I'm sure that with some searching on vvv-gaming.com you could find our achievements within 5 minutes. Since you're obviously not serious in joining the academy, I feel no reason to do that work for you
Actually I did go to vvv-gaming.com, and when I clicked on the SC2 team link it was empty and I couldn't see anything.
THEN I went to liquidpedia which also has no information besides the second place finish to ROOT in the Team League (which wasn't what I asked anyways). The only vVv member I've heard from is Titan on Bitters' 12 weeks.
Can you please stop with the negativity, right after the owner of vVv apologizes for vVv's terrible terrible PR, and assume the best of everyone in here to save some face? Seriously, I'm pretty tired of the negativity after a whole thread of it, especially when an unassuming question gets thrown back in my face.
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Thanks LordJerith, I appreciate your efforts to keep this under control and to compromise. I wish that I was a better player so I could apply. GL!
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On August 15 2011 01:30 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:26 rei wrote:On August 15 2011 01:01 LordJerith wrote:On August 15 2011 00:50 rei wrote:
What I would like to see from an academy is
1) reward based on effort, not lan results. The reasoning behind this that your recruit managers have the responsibility to spot talents, and your coaching staff will be responsible to raise this talents, if they have done their job, the players with talents and effort will eventually yield results on lan. and if the players don't get the expected results, the one should take responsibility lies on the managers and coaches.
2)a challenge system that internally ranks your recruits, if a recruit places last they get remove after a week, this way you keep your recruit managers busy. In the same time this will result in competitiveness between recruits and pressure on them to preform internally. The idea is that if you don't get better faster than your peers you will be removed.
So you reward your top internal ranked players with traveling expenses, to lan to see if they yield results, if they don't then blame it on the coaches and your recruit managers. they obviously either failed at assessing the talents or didn't provide a solid coaching curriculum. Because it can't be the player's fault if your player have been playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week and ranked on top of your internal ranking. At that point you look for new coaches and new recruitment managers. 1)How do you quantify effort? Hours logged? Just wanting some clarification on how this would work. 2)Yes, we would have something like that, but monthly not weekly. 3)I do like the idea of holding the managers responsible, and we will use that. Great suggestion. If you are talking about recruits playing from their home, then you have your recruits upload all their replays they played at the end of each day, there is a time stamp on the duration of each replay file, you can log their hours practiced for the day.(you need to create a personal replay upload thing in your vVv website, so your recruits can log on and upload) Oh and its your coaching staff's job to go through all those bloody replays, and single out mistakes and errors, and shit to and post comments and suggestions behind each reply recruits upload. Make sure these comments can only be seen by that player, and make sure it notify the coach whether or not the player have click on the comments to read it. TL is a huge resource, we will help you guys out with free ideas as long as we can see there is a potential in promoting further development of Esport. PS. you might actually have to pay your coaches for doing this, going through all the replays will take a long ass time Interesting idea. I actually like it, and I agree we would have to compensate qualified managers/coaches for this. We may use our sponsored players in this role. Of course, we would then need to hold them accountable for the players performance if we compensate them, but I really like the idea. Thanks for this.
Your sponsored players can't spare too much of their time analyzing others replays, they have to take care of their own business. You want to free up your stars with no burden, so they can concentrate on getting better faster than let's say EG.idra.
Oh and about spotting talents, make sure your recruitment managers know what talent means in sc2, it is defined as "the ability to consistently make the right decision given limited information and under stress". and make sure they don't confuse this talent with "having mass experience in sc2". Because people like Idra who uses his experience to make up for his lack of talents will still make the right decision most of the time under scripted scenarios that he has experienced at least once, but his lack of talents shows up when the Koreans put him on the spot where he doesn't have a lot of experience with.
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On August 15 2011 01:26 RedJustice wrote:Gl to vVv then! I think you will have a lot of very interested players willing to apply now! :D EDIT: P.S. Might wanna ask Sweep to edit the OP with the change to the LAN requirement.
He is at work, I will have him edit it.
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On August 15 2011 01:26 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:18 celious wrote:
I would like to know more about how the monthly placement tournament is going to be structured. Is it going to be a single bracket? What if I'm having an off day and lose to a lesser player first round, does that mean I'm out of academy until the next month? Double elimination over a weekend with flexible times. It will be a Friday-Sun type of event.
First off thanks for responding to this thread and clearing up all the confusion and negativity that brewed from the somewhat ambiguous OP, and from the replis of sweep/sugarbear.
I just had a quetion of just how flexible would the times be? I've concidered applying to the academy but the main thing that stopped me was the LAN requirement. Other than that, I work friday-sunday so it wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world for me to make games on friday-sunday, but I would still have some time each of those days.
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Thank you LordJerith, for stepping in and pushing this thread in another direction. A help us improve the plan direction is always a good one. That being said I still think a stern talking to or 2 are in order. Unfortunately I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said. But good luck with your team and academy.
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Good luck vVv! This seems like a really exciting opportunity for some skilled players. Hopefully we get to see some new names on the scene. Even if they're not AAA players its still fun to see new faces.
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On August 15 2011 01:38 akalarry wrote:
seriously,
focus on online tournaments for your new and upcoming players, not lan. maybe have them go to a lan once or twice a year for just experience.
lan tournaments are just NOT feasible. there are plenty of talented and great players that were noticed by online results, and got sponsored. From this thread, sheth and nerchio come to mind. They got sponsored by legit teams through their online efforts. You should follow precedent and do the same. If you can take one game off of idra, even online, then you are GOING to get noticed.
Being a sponsor, it's all about advertisement and marketing. SC2 thrives through the internet, such as teamliquid, twitter, AND online tournaments. You are severely undervaluing what online tournaments can offer.
starting things off online present a much bigger and better opportunity.
Yes, we agree!
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On August 15 2011 01:38 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:17 Glon wrote:
@Zdrastochye if you were serious about joining vVv I'm sure that with some searching on vvv-gaming.com you could find our achievements within 5 minutes. Since you're obviously not serious in joining the academy, I feel no reason to do that work for you Actually I did go to vvv-gaming.com, and when I clicked on the SC2 team link it was empty and I couldn't see anything. THEN I went to liquidpedia which also has no information besides the second place finish to ROOT in the Team League (which wasn't what I asked anyways). The only vVv member I've heard from is Titan on Bitters' 12 weeks. Can you please stop with the negativity, right after the owner of vVv apologizes for vVv's terrible terrible PR, and assume the best of everyone in here to save some face? Seriously, I'm pretty tired of the negativity after a whole thread of it, especially when an unassuming question gets thrown back in my face.
Yup, we just upgraded our forums, and this will be up this week. We're catching up on those team pages. Probably by Tuesday.
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On August 15 2011 01:43 rei wrote:
Your sponsored players can't spare too much of their time analyzing others replays, they have to take care of their own business. You want to free up your stars with no burden, so they can concentrate on getting better faster than let's say EG.idra.
Oh and about spotting talents, make sure your recruitment managers know what talent means in sc2, it is defined as "the ability to consistently make the right decision given limited information and under stress". and make sure they don't confuse this talent with "having mass experience in sc2". Because people like Idra who uses his experience to make up for his lack of talents will still make the right decision most of the time under scripted scenarios that he has experienced at least once, but his lack of talents shows up when the Koreans put him on the spot where he doesn't have a lot of experience with.
Thanks! Good points, and we will keep that in mind.
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Sent you a pm on here LordJerith. just a couple questions about vvv academy that were rather offtopic so I sent you a pm
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On August 15 2011 01:47 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:26 LordJerith wrote:On August 15 2011 01:18 celious wrote:
I would like to know more about how the monthly placement tournament is going to be structured. Is it going to be a single bracket? What if I'm having an off day and lose to a lesser player first round, does that mean I'm out of academy until the next month? Double elimination over a weekend with flexible times. It will be a Friday-Sun type of event. First off thanks for responding to this thread and clearing up all the confusion and negativity that brewed from the somewhat ambiguous OP, and from the replis of sweep/sugarbear. I just had a quetion of just how flexible would the times be? I've concidered applying to the academy but the main thing that stopped me was the LAN requirement. Other than that, I work friday-sunday so it wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world for me to make games on friday-sunday, but I would still have some time each of those days.
We'll have to handle that on a case by case basis. You could schedule matches at times that work for you, but we would need to handle those scheduling conflicts as they come up.
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On August 15 2011 01:52 Eogris wrote:
Good luck vVv! This seems like a really exciting opportunity for some skilled players. Hopefully we get to see some new names on the scene. Even if they're not AAA players its still fun to see new faces.
Thanks for the support. Again, I apologize for how we handled it.
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The basic idea of an academy to help players get better in a team experience is great. Also I love how you are taking every suggestion into consideration and refining them. Lastly, why not help a player set up a stream that way they get experience playing with viewers watching and it will help bring publicity to vVv, the player, and the sponsors creating a win win situation for everybody.
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The foreign scene needs to develop more programs like this in order to increase the pool of players with pro-level skills and discover new talent. I think it's great that vVv is stepping forward as a leader in this regard.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 16:37 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 15:16 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 14:54 Hossinaut wrote:Well, originally I was going to post my personal opinion on the matter, but I think I'll let others speak for me. From vVvSweep + Show Spoiler +If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult From SugarBear in one of his more offensive posts: + Show Spoiler + Actually, I sincerely apologize. I just realized how incredibly offensive it is to provide this opportunity to the SC2 community. I should have realized that people want to be stuck finding their own practice partners, finding contact info for sponsors, building their own fan base, and that every master level player is getting offers from top level organizations like EG and SK gaming left and right.
Oh wait. from iCCup.Diamond + Show Spoiler +Just for the record on the PR side of things (as I do PR and have done PR), repeatedly telling users they know nothing and you are too smart to explain it to them is not a good thing. From rei + Show Spoiler +@ vVvSweep
wow, I have been trying to defend you with every one of my post in this thread, now i feel like a dumb ass for saying all the unintelligent things when I was trying to help you guys out.
you really taught me a lot about being adult, and what it means to be smart, thank you so much on pointing out my mistakes. and you are right that I know nothing about owning a business, and i am no way consider myself an intelligent person, in fact I consider myself to be very stupid trying to be less stupid by getting help from others who are more intelligent than I am, such as yourself.
Again thank you for replying to me, i never thought someone as stupid as I am is actually worthy of the time you spend in typing out 6 paragraph of text trying to enlighten me. From Polskaa + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:11 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
People who perform well in lans get paid
People who don't go to lans, don't get paid
vVv will only sponsor those who are already committed in trying to do well.
For example.
You don't get a burger from a restaurant until you pay for the burger first.
The lower quality burger "shacks" require you to pay before you get your item
"classy" resteraunts give you a bill at the end
I think we have made the the connection here.
I wont say it
But I will leave it to the people. From ExO_ + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 10:39 Jawmare wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On August 14 2011 06:09 vVvSweep wrote:
And I will not discuss the benefits and support vVv can and/or will provide in a public forum.
Sounds fishy
Nah that's standard practice for competitive e-sports right now. Unlike in sports such as football, teams do not generally divulge contract details outside of their organizations
(personal opinion INC)
Idk why anyone else hasn't commented on this being an issue. If SC2 wants to be an E-Sport, why isn't behaving like a real sport, where players' signings and salaries are widely known? Its pub and its good in my opinion- also makes it so the stronger teams survive while the weaker ones don't, which provides for higher levels of play, which is good. From TemplarRage + Show Spoiler +
On August 14 2011 05:47 SugarBear wrote:
Lots of feelings of entitlement so far in this thread. Are there any players serious about personal development in a structured environment who want to comment?
Are you implying that because we don't agree with your approach, we cannot possibly be serious about improving? Because I would love an opportunity like the one you're presenting. I'm in what seems to be a fairly unique position where I could probably manage to get myself to multiple MLGs this year, so I could fulfill that portion. But a lot of people aren't. I honestly cannot fathom how you and Sweep fail to understand that concept. I also cannot understand what makes you guys think that the approach you're taking ITT is at all in the best interest of this project.
From: Don't remember, didn't write it down + Show Spoiler + But wow. Wow, wow, wow the vVv representatives in this thread are dicks.
Quit being condescending, arrogant assholes to people asking honest questions about the workings and motivation of this academy. As a community we are entitled to ask questions and receive answers. If you think otherwise, don't bring your academy into the public light.
and another
On the other hand, a team trying to help and develop talented players who shown potential at the game is willing to pay their players and help them gain valuable offline lan experiences, even if said player don't show any results.
But then again, a person as intelligent as the vVvsweep, he has to be well aware of this fact, by even bring this up i'm actually insulting his intelligence.
He obviously has his reasons why he would propose for the players to pay for their own traveling to attend lan, and attending lan is a requirement to stay on the team. As for his reason, he need not let us know because there is no way someone as stupid as I am can even remotely come close to understanding the logic behind this complex business operation. Even if he were to try, it would be a major waste of time, and he has wasted enough time on me by even replying to my post which was trying to but unsuccessfully defend the honor of vVv. So if you read all that you have just read the compiled efforts of the thread up until now (the end of page 12 with vVvTime) and should probably have gotten the idea that vVv Gaming's representatives aren't very professional, nor is the deal they're selling very well thought out, especially when compared to this: On August 14 2011 14:21 Integra wrote:On August 14 2011 14:12 luckylefty wrote:On August 14 2011 10:47 RebelMusic wrote:
I have read the OP and the entire thread and I believe you have made an error. The word "Academy" implies a school or some kind of training or development. However your requirements to join make it very clear that you essentially already have to be a superstar to gain any value out of this association. Do you intend on taking a "good" player of say, I don't know, Destiny's caliber and turning him into Idra? If so who is going to do the coaching because no one in vVv has done anything worthy enough to call themselves qualified. Not to mention the fact that if someone were of said skill level, odds are they would prefer joining a team straight up and developing via practice instead of getting some phony b-tag rating where they have to jump through hoops at great personal expense. So really, what are you providing to potential applicants? OP suggests that you will be "eligible" to receive Steelseries equipment. Eligible? ELIGIBLE?!? You won't even commit to giving away a crappy keyboard and a mouse pad? This whole thing is a joke in my opinion from beginning to end. Proving yet again that vVv just doesn't get it. Back to the drawing board, boys. This is spot on in my eyes, great post. This was the first odd thing that you noticed about their post?
How about the fact that they are posting a thing like this in the normal forums instead of the sponsor forums. Or the fact that they decide to post their application process and what rules you must follow instead of all the great benefits you will get if you join. I mean you can get all this information on their homepage, why not used a sponsored thread trying to hype it instead, they should take lessons from InControl, he knows how to do this properly. /my post TL;DR, this is a TL;DR for the thread :D I take exception to your selective quoting of my post. Taking that paragraph out of context is highly unprofessional and I hope you take more care in the future not to misquote people. I agree completely, Hossinaut's post was completely unprofessional and I'm rather disappointed in him. For those of you interested in reaching professional poster status, I am opening the JBA Academy to cultivate the very best writing talent in the community and provide them with full sponsorships towards other message boards. To qualify for this prestigious Academy, you must participate in at least two of the following mediums, along with your regular forum posting: Twitter, Facebook, Google+, Blogspot, Xanga and Friendster. We will provide you with the tools and training to reach your fullest professional posting abilities, and for those skilled enough to complete the rigorous training process, a complimentary copy of Spybot S&D awaits!
For those of you who say that my post was unprofessional, I am not a professional writer, I am not a professional PR guy. I was attempting to give the general theme of the thread up until then, and any quotes that looked out of context were taken by me as a representative of larger themes the authors were presenting.
Since that though, LordJerith has been a really good face for vVv, and I for one appreciate his efforts and the considerations being made. So, hats off to you LordJerith, I applaud you and your organization's willingness to change to the community's reasonable requests. I hope you all the best.
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Glad to see that this thing is getting back on the right track. I want to add that I was told that the "vVv Academy" is basically just a fancy name for the B-team. If that's the case, then SugarBear's position becomes much clearer. If you're a B-teamer, they're not going to put you on the A-team unless you prove you should be (i.e. outperform an A-teamer and take their spot).
If they are altering the LAN thing, then I think I will grind myself into Masters so I can apply after all. That was really the only thing that was stopping me. I will say that I still think there should be some incentive for top-performing Academy members beyond free gear, namely at least sending them to a LAN. Even if it's only the top performer, or even if it's multiple people, but you only split the costs. I think having something like this as a goal to strive for will motivate whoever gets selected even more.
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LordJerith is the man. Good luck to vVv and their endeavours!
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I have a question since vVv is an NA clan i take it that you need an NA ladder account to apply correct? Also great too see that you stepped in and cleared up the confusion LordJerith props to you!
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So if a player is unable to attend a "major LAN" with no expenses paid, vVv reserves the right to drop the player at any time, and even if they do manage to do that, they're expected to gain a fanbase worth hundreds (read: a few, as quoted) of dollars for a CHANCE at having their next LAN paid for?
But you get free peripherals roughly equal to what you already had after 90 days!
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On August 15 2011 02:51 templar rage wrote:
Glad to see that this thing is getting back on the right track. I want to add that I was told that the "vVv Academy" is basically just a fancy name for the B-team. If that's the case, then SugarBear's position becomes much clearer. If you're a B-teamer, they're not going to put you on the A-team unless you prove you should be (i.e. outperform an A-teamer and take their spot).
If they are altering the LAN thing, then I think I will grind myself into Masters so I can apply after all. That was really the only thing that was stopping me. I will say that I still think there should be some incentive for top-performing Academy members beyond free gear, namely at least sending them to a LAN. Even if it's only the top performer, or even if it's multiple people, but you only split the costs. I think having something like this as a goal to strive for will motivate whoever gets selected even more.
I think they're looking for more of a high masters level player.
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On August 15 2011 03:59 wtiii wrote:
So if a player is unable to attend a "major LAN" with no expenses paid, vVv reserves the right to drop the player at any time, and even if they do manage to do that, they're expected to gain a fanbase worth hundreds (read: a few, as quoted) of dollars for a CHANCE at having their next LAN paid for?
But you get free peripherals roughly equal to what you already had after 90 days!
They dropped the LAN requirement, and originally it wasn't even required.
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On August 15 2011 02:31 ihavetherain wrote:
The basic idea of an academy to help players get better in a team experience is great. Also I love how you are taking every suggestion into consideration and refining them. Lastly, why not help a player set up a stream that way they get experience playing with viewers watching and it will help bring publicity to vVv, the player, and the sponsors creating a win win situation for everybody.
Yes, streaming is included. We want to educate them on revenue streams and how to market themselves.
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LordJerith is this academy open for people not in the US as with the updated requirements i am tempted to apply.
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On August 15 2011 03:57 Zkivlingen wrote:
I have a question since vVv is an NA clan i take it that you need an NA ladder account to apply correct? Also great too see that you stepped in and cleared up the confusion LordJerith props to you!
Yes, correct.
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On August 15 2011 02:51 templar rage wrote:
Glad to see that this thing is getting back on the right track. I want to add that I was told that the "vVv Academy" is basically just a fancy name for the B-team. If that's the case, then SugarBear's position becomes much clearer. If you're a B-teamer, they're not going to put you on the A-team unless you prove you should be (i.e. outperform an A-teamer and take their spot).
If they are altering the LAN thing, then I think I will grind myself into Masters so I can apply after all. That was really the only thing that was stopping me. I will say that I still think there should be some incentive for top-performing Academy members beyond free gear, namely at least sending them to a LAN. Even if it's only the top performer, or even if it's multiple people, but you only split the costs. I think having something like this as a goal to strive for will motivate whoever gets selected even more.
It is not just a B team. I want to make that clear.
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Then how is it different?
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On August 15 2011 06:04 Zaros wrote:
LordJerith is this academy open for people not in the US as with the updated requirements i am tempted to apply.
Yes, but you must have a north american account.
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On August 15 2011 06:26 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 06:04 Zaros wrote:
LordJerith is this academy open for people not in the US as with the updated requirements i am tempted to apply. Yes, but you must have a north american account.
OK i will look at all the specifics and then make a decision about applying
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I'm glad to see that vVv has a smart, caring, and receptive owner. Kudos to LordJerith for handling the situation in a professional manner.
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Original thread is edited. This removes the LAN requirement.
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nvm mod please delete my post.
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Thanks for all the feedback!
Moderators. Please close this thread, as we will start a new one with changes from all this feedback.
Thanks again, everyone.
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On August 14 2011 19:16 Heazy wrote:
This thread is very indicative of how Clan vVv is run as a whole... terribly. The only thing that stands out about your clan is the severe immaturity and rage after losing clan wars and ladder games (and now immaturity in a major public forum as well).
Let me put this another way... a 'vVv' player has never won any major tournament ever, and you're expecting people to jump at the chance to represent you? Great business model there.
YO Haezy, http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=238282
get own you hypocrite.
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how bout you just close this thread and make a new, I don't know, sponsored one?
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On August 15 2011 09:44 LordJerith wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback!
Moderators. Please close this thread, as we will start a new one with changes from all this feedback.
Thanks again, everyone.
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On August 15 2011 01:08 Netto. wrote:
For me the bad thing is LAN presence which is disscused through the topic. I will place here example of mine: I am 16 boy from Europe so I don't have a full-time job, also my parents aren't rich enough for trip to America, and even tho I am high master and I meet requirements I am not gonna apply due to those LAN's.
The point is that you shouldn't care that much about lans, on master/grandmaster level results from online tournaments means a lot, while Lans are for already for true pros.
I see that academy like a group of people who have their time (for example 90 days) of hard training with clan members for free and then after that time 3 best academy players will have a chance to go for a LAN which will be sponsored by the team. (At least it would be best for me :D)
As you mentioned you are 16, and with that age goes many different regulations(not to mention your parent's consent). There was a previous topic where this was discussed, but the gist of it is, team managers are generally extremely cautious taking on an underage player due to many legality issues and extreme risks.
There was something that was stated, even if you signed a contract, there's some kind of rule that states...being a minor you may null the contract at any time, simply because it's not enforceable due to your age. As an example, if you suddenly didn't feel like going ahead with what's being requested of you...you can simply say no, and the team manager can't do anything. Same if your parents intervene and say, nope, you may not continue, for any number of reasons.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://vvv-gaming.com/forum/uploads/1254242484/gallery_5702_32_17339.jpg)
