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On August 15 2011 00:55 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:47 shinyA wrote:
Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you're just trying to benefit yourselves and get publicity disguised as something for aspiring players which is pretty pathetic and reflects very poorly on vVv as a whole which can obviously be seen in this thread. Our goal is to develop players. Plain and simple. What do you think we can do to correct the impression moving forward?
Practice. Sending players to LAN's when they haven't shown potential online to perform well is pointless.
If I were in your shoes I would do something like this:
- Have players who meet your requirements ( something like ladder rank ) apply to be apart of the academy. You can do like complexity did with the youtube submissions.
- Once accepted there will be weekly matches with current vVv members, the results would be kept track of week by week to show who performs the best and who is improving. Mix in tournaments with academy members only and just get a good system in place to keep score.
- During the end of whatever length it goes on for, whoever does the best or wins or however you want to pick a winner gets all expenses paid trip to MLG representing vVv.
That wasn't hard 
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On August 15 2011 00:59 Zaros wrote:
If your goal is to foster talent then how about you hold a tournament or some sort of ranking system and pay for the top player on that tournament/ranking system to go to an event within reasonable cost.
Yup. We will do that with monthly tournaments that are casted. We were thinking of covering lodging for their first event.
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On August 15 2011 01:01 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:55 LordJerith wrote:On August 15 2011 00:47 shinyA wrote:
Well first of all figure out your goal. The goal of this whole thing seems to get your name out there without doing any work. If your goal is to actually improve your team or help players get better then that should be reflected in the way it's set up.
It feels like you're just trying to benefit yourselves and get publicity disguised as something for aspiring players which is pretty pathetic and reflects very poorly on vVv as a whole which can obviously be seen in this thread. Our goal is to develop players. Plain and simple. What do you think we can do to correct the impression moving forward? Practice. Sending players to LAN's when they haven't shown potential online to perform well is pointless. If I were in your shoes I would do something like this: - Have players who meet your requirements ( something like ladder rank ) apply to be apart of the academy. You can do like complexity did with the youtube submissions. - Once accepted there will be weekly matches with current vVv members, the results would be kept track of week by week to show who performs the best and who is improving. Mix in tournaments with academy members only and just get a good system in place to keep score. - During the end of whatever length it goes on for, whoever does the best or wins or however you want to pick a winner gets all expenses paid trip to MLG representing vVv. That wasn't hard
-Yes, we have an application process
-Agreed
-we would not do all expenses paid, but we would cover hotel costs and assess after first LAN performance. But maybe you are right? Maybe we should cover all of travel?
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For me the bad thing is LAN presence which is disscused through the topic. I will place here example of mine: I am 16 boy from Europe so I don't have a full-time job, also my parents aren't rich enough for trip to America, and even tho I am high master and I meet requirements I am not gonna apply due to those LAN's.
The point is that you shouldn't care that much about lans, on master/grandmaster level results from online tournaments means a lot, while Lans are for already for true pros.
I see that academy like a group of people who have their time (for example 90 days) of hard training with clan members for free and then after that time 3 best academy players will have a chance to go for a LAN which will be sponsored by the team. (At least it would be best for me :D)
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Ok i Filled out an application to join vVv and i told them that i would be able to attend the mlg's only in California as i cannot afford to just fly out to where the mlg's are. This is what they replied with.
"In order to be in the academy, you cant miss 2 consecutive major events, such as MLG. Plus there the last MLG event was in California, and there wont be another one in California till MAYBE next season. " That was from vVv Radiation. Soooo no way that im joining.
Edit: typo
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On August 15 2011 01:02 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:59 Zaros wrote:
If your goal is to foster talent then how about you hold a tournament or some sort of ranking system and pay for the top player on that tournament/ranking system to go to an event within reasonable cost.
Yup. We will do that with monthly tournaments that are casted. We were thinking of covering lodging for their first event.
I know you dont have loads of cash to spare and i dont want to sound ungratefull but i think to alot of people lodging costs are one of the smaller costs to going to a Major Lan such as Dreamhack MLG IEM unless you are very near by. Travel costs depending on where you live are going to be the major factor.
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On August 15 2011 00:34 LordJerith wrote:
What if we covered the hotel cost for the top 3 academy members? Looking to understand what you think would help.
From a personal standpoint I honestly think that the only real correction you need to make to the academy is to take away the LAN requirement for evaluation and allow Online Cups to be one of the ways you judge players.
Personally I would like to join the academy and improve as a player but I will let you know now that I absolutely DO NOT have any kind of money to be able to afford to go to any MLG's or LAN events, so if it's a requirement to even go to 1 a year then I'm unable to go.
However if I'm able to join GIGABYTE Cup or CraftCup and win a few times or whatever and that counts then I'd be much more willing and able to participate.
I truly don't have any problem with you cutting the under-performing members, but when finances are involved in how you cut your players then I kind of have a problem.
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On August 15 2011 01:08 Netto. wrote:
For me the bad thing is LAN presence which is disscused through the topic. I will place here example of mine: I am 16 boy from Europe so I don't have a full-time job, also my parents aren't rich enough for trip to America, and even tho I am high master and I meet requirements I am not gonna apply due to those LAN's.
The point is that you shouldn't care that much about lans, on master/grandmaster level results from online tournaments means a lot, while Lans are for already for true pros.
I see that academy like a group of people who have their time (for example 90 days) of hard training with clan members for free and then after that time 3 best academy players will have a chance to go for a LAN which will be sponsored by the team. (At least it would be best for me :D)
There is no LAN requirement. It is removed, and all posts will be edited to remove the requirement.
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Thanks for posting in this thread! ^_^
If you goal is to develop players, it seems a lot of the stuff is right-- show up to clan wars, practice with us, review each others games, etc. This will help people improve as players, obviously. Of course, you want these players to be improving to the point where they play at a level you could be interested in sponsoring them. I agree with the idea of an internal ranking/tournament system that helps keep things competitive and foster improvement.
I also think you should start by asking players to participate in online tournaments/KOTHs, so that they can have the chance to play better players than themselves and compete. An online tournament only really costs time though, as there are no travel costs that could be prohibitive to someone starting out and looking to prove themselves.
Then after X amount of time in which people have been practicing, competing internally, and also competing in smaller online tournaments (smaller in prize pool, but you can still play some very high level players), choose a few players to receive a bit of financial help going to a major LAN based off their performance (this doesn't even have to be all, but paying for a shared hotel room, or something even would be quite good).
I am sure most people would agree this is much more fair. It is not that the time commitment is bad-- if someone is serious about going pro/semi-pro, they know they have to put the time in. But to put the time in and also come up with enough money for flights and hotel rooms, etc to attend LANs seems like way too much to ask from someone. If they are not pro yet, of course they will need someone to support them, or a job. Since the team's not supporting them monetarily yet, it just seems like way too much to ask of someone right off. Basically they would need a full time job to support a full time job of SC2.
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On August 15 2011 01:13 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:08 Netto. wrote:
For me the bad thing is LAN presence which is disscused through the topic. I will place here example of mine: I am 16 boy from Europe so I don't have a full-time job, also my parents aren't rich enough for trip to America, and even tho I am high master and I meet requirements I am not gonna apply due to those LAN's.
The point is that you shouldn't care that much about lans, on master/grandmaster level results from online tournaments means a lot, while Lans are for already for true pros.
I see that academy like a group of people who have their time (for example 90 days) of hard training with clan members for free and then after that time 3 best academy players will have a chance to go for a LAN which will be sponsored by the team. (At least it would be best for me :D) There is no LAN requirement. It is removed, and all posts will be edited to remove the requirement.
Holy Buckets I think I might put in an app now :o
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@Netto yes we accept all countries: ex) vVvRantech is one of Chile's top Starcraft 2 player and he is on the academy
@aquanda I realize your pain. Put yourself in my shoes -- I was basically told no matter how good I got I wouldn't be sponsored without MLG results. Once you're part of the academy you can work closely with A team coaches, academy coaches, ect to define what you have to do specifically to outperform
@Zdrastochye if you were serious about joining vVv I'm sure that with some searching on vvv-gaming.com you could find our achievements within 5 minutes. Since you're obviously not serious in joining the academy, I feel no reason to do that work for you
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On August 15 2011 01:09 Deception-35 wrote:
Ok i Filled out an application to join vVv and i told them that i would be able to attend the mlg's only in California as i cannot afford to just fly out to where the mlg's are. This is what they replied with.
"In order to be in the academy, you cant miss 2 consecutive major events, such as MLG. Plus there the last MLG event was in California, and there wont be another one in California till MAYBE next season. " That was from vVv Radiation. Soooo no way that im joining.
Edit: typo
There is NO LAN requirement. We will remove it.
vVv Radiation was quoting an old post. Sorry.
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I would like to know more about how the monthly placement tournament is going to be structured. Is it going to be a single bracket? What if I'm having an off day and lose to a lesser player first round, does that mean I'm out of academy until the next month?
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On August 15 2011 01:17 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:09 Deception-35 wrote:
Ok i Filled out an application to join vVv and i told them that i would be able to attend the mlg's only in California as i cannot afford to just fly out to where the mlg's are. This is what they replied with.
"In order to be in the academy, you cant miss 2 consecutive major events, such as MLG. Plus there the last MLG event was in California, and there wont be another one in California till MAYBE next season. " That was from vVv Radiation. Soooo no way that im joining.
Edit: typo There is NO LAN requirement. We will remove it. vVv Radiation was quoting an old post. Sorry.
Oh thats GREAT i look forward to seeing if i can get on the team :D
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Oh and I forgot about a very important thing. (or I missed it) How much time do a player have to apply?
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On August 15 2011 01:14 RedJustice wrote:
Thanks for posting in this thread! ^_^
If you goal is to develop players, it seems a lot of the stuff is right-- show up to clan wars, practice with us, review each others games, etc. This will help people improve as players, obviously. Of course, you want these players to be improving to the point where they play at a level you could be interested in sponsoring them. I agree with the idea of an internal ranking/tournament system that helps keep things competitive and foster improvement.
I also think you should start by asking players to participate in online tournaments/KOTHs, so that they can have the chance to play better players than themselves and compete. An online tournament only really costs time though, as there are no travel costs that could be prohibitive to someone starting out and looking to prove themselves.
Then after X amount of time in which people have been practicing, competing internally, and also competing in smaller online tournaments (smaller in prize pool, but you can still play some very high level players), choose a few players to receive a bit of financial help going to a major LAN based off their performance (this doesn't even have to be all, but paying for a shared hotel room, or something even would be quite good).
I am sure most people would agree this is much more fair. It is not that the time commitment is bad-- if someone is serious about going pro/semi-pro, they know they have to put the time in. But to put the time in and also come up with enough money for flights and hotel rooms, etc to attend LANs seems like way too much to ask from someone. If they are not pro yet, of course they will need someone to support them, or a job. Since the team's not supporting them monetarily yet, it just seems like way too much to ask of someone right off. Basically they would need a full time job to support a full time job of SC2.
We will have monthly, casted tournaments for the academy. I agree we need to cover the expenses of at least the #1 academy member.
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Gl to vVv then! I think you will have a lot of very interested players willing to apply now! :D
EDIT: P.S. Might wanna ask Sweep to edit the OP with the change to the LAN requirement. 
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On August 15 2011 01:01 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:50 rei wrote:
What I would like to see from an academy is
1) reward based on effort, not lan results. The reasoning behind this that your recruit managers have the responsibility to spot talents, and your coaching staff will be responsible to raise this talents, if they have done their job, the players with talents and effort will eventually yield results on lan. and if the players don't get the expected results, the one should take responsibility lies on the managers and coaches.
2)a challenge system that internally ranks your recruits, if a recruit places last they get remove after a week, this way you keep your recruit managers busy. In the same time this will result in competitiveness between recruits and pressure on them to preform internally. The idea is that if you don't get better faster than your peers you will be removed.
So you reward your top internal ranked players with traveling expenses, to lan to see if they yield results, if they don't then blame it on the coaches and your recruit managers. they obviously either failed at assessing the talents or didn't provide a solid coaching curriculum. Because it can't be the player's fault if your player have been playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week and ranked on top of your internal ranking. At that point you look for new coaches and new recruitment managers. 1)How do you quantify effort? Hours logged? Just wanting some clarification on how this would work. 2)Yes, we would have something like that, but monthly not weekly. 3)I do like the idea of holding the managers responsible, and we will use that. Great suggestion.
If you are talking about recruits playing from their home, then you have your recruits upload all their replays they played at the end of each day, there is a time stamp on the duration of each replay file, you can log their hours practiced for the day.(you need to create a personal replay upload thing in your vVv website, so your recruits can log on and upload)
Oh and its your coaching staff's job to go through all those bloody replays, and single out mistakes and errors, and shit to and post comments and suggestions behind each reply recruits upload. Make sure these comments can only be seen by that player, and make sure it notify the coach whether or not the player have click on the comments to read it.
TL is a huge resource, we will help you guys out with free ideas as long as we can see there is a potential in promoting further development of Esport.
PS. you might actually have to pay your coaches for doing this, going through all the replays will take a long ass time
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On August 15 2011 01:18 celious wrote:
I would like to know more about how the monthly placement tournament is going to be structured. Is it going to be a single bracket? What if I'm having an off day and lose to a lesser player first round, does that mean I'm out of academy until the next month?
Double elimination over a weekend with flexible times. It will be a Friday-Sun type of event.
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On August 15 2011 01:21 Netto. wrote:
Oh and I forgot about a very important thing. (or I missed it) How much time do a player have to apply?
Because of how this was handled, I would say we expect to hold our first tournament October 1st. Again, we will have a new thread on forums which will clear this up.
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EPT
