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On August 12 2011 11:26 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:17 mcc wrote:On August 12 2011 11:05 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 10:50 esotericc wrote:On August 12 2011 10:47 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 10:39 esotericc wrote:
As more time goes on I am getting more and more sick of the korean scenes overall attitude. Could just be a vocal minority but they sure do believe their proverbial crap don't stink.
Considering the foreign scene is much larger than korea in regards to SC2 I feel we owe them nothing at all and they should jump at a chance to give themselves a stronger foot hold in the foreign scene. Foreign scene isn't larger than Korean scene. Strength of a scene is measured by quality and skill of players because that is the only real long-term value. Everything else (tournaments, prize money etc) is just temporary, it's basically an inflated bubble. This very thread proves that best. Korean scene in SC2 did a LOT for the foreign scene. They're basically offering free entry in the highest level professional competition in the world, something that western Brood War progamers (who couldn't even manage to earn a progaming LICENCE, let alone qualify for anything significant) would have killed for back in the day. We owe them quite a bit actually. I understand your point of view and appreciate where you are coming from but in my opinion strength of scene comes with the money being invested into the players and events. You can have as many amazing players in korea that you want but if they only have 1 big competition, no upcoming events other than that one and they refuse to be part of the rest of the worlds events then their scene won't grow. Just because we enjoy watching them doesn't mean they are going to be picking up sponsors outside of korea if they refuse to leave. Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  From everything I've seen by following Korean BW and keeping an eye on some e-sport attempts in the west, I have to say that right now I'm nearly convinced that you can't build e-sports with money. Money, show and sponsorships can come into it when you already have an intense level of competition, passion and following and when you have players demonstrating skill that the audience can really appreciate. Speaking of sponsors, while I can agree with your statement, have you also considered that without interest and without a sufficiently high level of competition, western sponsors may soon no longer be interested in western tournaments either? Foreign scene does not justify $20k+ prize pool tournaments in the long run. On the other hand, whether SC2 grows in Korea is mostly up to Korea. They're pretty much an e-sport country (as much as a country can be), so if the game is pushed through the right channels there's plenty of sponsorship money to go around within Korea. It's not the lack of western sponsors that slowed down the growth of SC2 in Korea, it was mostly the internal factors (and Blizzard). Nope. Prize pools are determined by viewership or rather specifically by sponsors calculating if sponsorship will pay itself. So it is purely determined by size and demographics of viewership. The "Foreign scene does not justify $20k+ prize pool tournaments in the long run." is therefore quite strange statement. In what way does it not justify the prize pool ? That's one part of it - it won't attract the viewers. Take a look at IPL stream to the right, it's 12k viewers for probably the most exciting set of matches so far this season (featuring Ret, Thorzain, Idra and WhiteRa) Second and bigger part of the point is that you can organize a $15k tournament and a $100k tournament, and both tournaments will attract the same quality of players (basically most top foreign players out of Korea) and the same number of viewers. So why would you waste $85k that you don't need to? Sure you could argue that it's about sustaining the e-sport in the long run, but western sponsors aren't here for the long run. They don't actually own Starcraft teams, TV stations and the whole infrastructure like in Korea, they don't care if 5 years from now it dies out (they'll just find something else that's popular to sponsor).
Yes, you can organize two tournaments one with 15k and one with 100k, but there are other competing tournaments and as it already happens in foreign scene better players already have to choose between them, do you think they will choose your 15k tournament if competition offers 50k one ? No , you will get lesser players. As for if it sustainable, who knows.
Now I would love to see the evidence for the fact that skill is the main factor in long term, sizeable, sustainable scene. My guess would be the other way around as only long term scene can produce higher skill levels due to fierce competition over long period of time. The actual reason for sustainability probably would be popularity and I highly doubt fangirls of BW players in Korea actually care about absolute value of skill. Relative skill compared to direct competition is what matters.
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On August 12 2011 11:32 Wasteweiser wrote:
Finally, another event not swarmed with koreans. Let our foriegn community have its own tournements.
I don't think you get the point. Unquestionably, Koreans are still better than foreigners in general. Their participation in foreign tourneys makes those tourneys a legitimate "test" of who're the best in the world. Whenever Koreans withdraw from a foreign tournament, you can't help but think that the credibility of that tourney goes down by a considerable amount. On the other hand, foreign support is still strong enough that NASL will still draw a lot of viewers, but probably not as much as Season 1.
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On August 12 2011 11:39 MG.AtRi wrote:
Definitely disappointing news. I myself do not know the cost of traveling from Korea to the US, but it seems like 2000$ is more than enough to cover a weekend. I understand the Koreans reasons for not wanting when the amount was 500$, but they can't manage for 2k? Really? This seems unreasonable to me... I guess the Koreans are to cool for us NA Scum -_-
$1k. The other $1k is prize money. This is like your employer asking you hey, you did well, we want to award you with some bonus money that you can get by winning in a tournament. But here's the thing: you have to give us part of your last paycheck if you want to participate in the bonus money competition.
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what a bunch of spoilt brats, koreans are killing esports!!!
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Wow, disappointed in the Korean team management.
I understand why they did it, but I can't in good conscience agree with how they did it.
They should have brought this up right at or before the end of the first season so that NASL will have alternative if an agreement cannot be reached.
But what's done is done. Hopefully this doesn't drive a wedge between the Korean and International communities.
Best of luck to all. The show must go on.
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On August 12 2011 11:35 Gao Xi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:33 Xx26Vanek26xX wrote:
still many good players from Slayers MVP IM and Zenex they could get to replace them Except MVP IM Zenex are part of sc2con? Slayers Boxer withdrew for similar reasons, so no one else from slayers will be participating.
I don't think its known why Boxer withdrew, is it?
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On August 12 2011 11:35 BryanSC wrote:
So is there any official statement from Mr. Chae or SC2Con? NASL has always had terrible PR and sometimes lied about things, so it would be nice to at least hear the other side of the story.
I'm watching PlayXP like a hawk (between ladder rounds  )...
Nothing yet.
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It'd be a shame if the Korean players were looked upon poorly because of this. You better bet your ass that they want to be in foreign events.
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On August 12 2011 11:39 ryan1894 wrote:
1) Theres a very high chance of a korean winning
2) They are being paid to go there
3) The risk is a few hundred $ per player, and the reward (which is highly likely due to skill differential) is $40k+.
Conclusion: There is little to no risk for newer korean players who havent played on TV in Korea to experience a live audience, and there is a very high chance for the grand prize to go to a Korean, and that would pay for everybody's tickets. Maybe they think this is like a small LAN held in someone's house. They came out to MLG and that was a $5k prize
MLG is a weekend tournament that GSL specifically schedules around, where the winners have a chance to get GSL Code S and Code A spots as well as placement into the MLG championship which is a much larger prize pool.
and clearly NASL doesn't have a Sundance of their own.
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sounds like a power play to try and get what they want (making everyone agree), i guess 9 weeks is a long investment, but its not like only first place takes a prize home, really need to hear their side of the story but probably never will, i really hope this isnt kespa 2.0
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On August 12 2011 11:39 ryan1894 wrote:
1) Theres a very high chance of a korean winning
2) They are being paid to go there
3) The risk is a few hundred $ per player, and the reward (which is highly likely due to skill differential) is $40k+.
Conclusion: There is little to no risk for newer korean players who havent played on TV in Korea to experience a live audience, and there is a very high chance for the grand prize to go to a Korean, and that would pay for everybody's tickets. Maybe they think this is like a small LAN held in someone's house. They came out to MLG and that was a $5k prize
They are not being paid to go there. Koreans to go would be losing money, unless you don't count prize money they earned by playing well over 9 weeks to be truly their money.
They went to MLG since it was paid for, and it was only 3 days. It wasn't a 2 month long league with weekly games at less than ideal times (for them).
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On August 12 2011 11:39 Misanthrope wrote:
As one man courageously mentioned beforehand, fuck 'em. Seems like these terms were entirely reasonable. Let's see if starving every other league that doesn't pander to the absolute whim of the 'godlike' koreans is the hidden motive here. Wouldn't surprise me that members of the SK SC2 committee would align themselves with GSL and MLG primarily, while using only the tourneys that guarantee total ball-tonguing for exposure, so that they can attempt to create a re-born KeSPA organization
What they fail to realize, is that exposure like the NASL is offering their teams, sponsors, and players, has mind-bendingly powerful long-term implications. What a bunch of spoiled children. I repeat, fuck 'em.
I feel terrible for the players. They players are the ones who want to be in the league and they are now taken out of it.
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On August 12 2011 11:41 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:35 Gao Xi wrote:On August 12 2011 11:33 Xx26Vanek26xX wrote:
still many good players from Slayers MVP IM and Zenex they could get to replace them Except MVP IM Zenex are part of sc2con? Slayers Boxer withdrew for similar reasons, so no one else from slayers will be participating. I don't think its known why Boxer withdrew, is it?
The NASL account said earlier in the thread that Boxer withdrew for the same reasons as SC2Con.
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On August 12 2011 11:41 Hunterai wrote:
Wow, disappointed in the Korean team management.
I understand why they did it, but I can't in good conscience agree with how they did it.
.
Apparently it's not the teams. It's the committee. Apparently, not all of the teams and players agree with the committee's decision according to some posts on Reddit.
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On August 12 2011 11:36 thedz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:32 Silver777 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:24 Boomy123 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 thedz wrote:On August 12 2011 11:21 88FuZiLeiRo wrote:
Bad for NASL, sad for the e-Sports scenario at all...
I still think the Koreans are VERY wrong at this point, 2000$ for each player, in an e-Sports tournament is too much, more than enough for accomodation and the travel itself... On August 12 2011 11:19 Brian333 wrote:
I'm not totally sure about this as I'm usually not the one directly buying or arranging the flights I take between Asia and the US but $1000 is definitely not enough and given the circumstances, $2000 might not be nearly enough either when including hotel fees. Keep in mind that it's a $1000 stipend plus $1000 prize. And the ticket alone will almost certainly be more than $1000. So they'd be essentially be using their own money (earned from over 9 weeks of pool play) to help pay for travel. Basically meaning, if they're lucky they'll break even after 2 months of playing. It's a waste of their time and money to play. I believe you just defined a competition sir. Whether or not the ROI is worth it dfifers by the person. But I think the issue about money should be stated clearly. NASL wasn't offering $2k for travel. According to the OP, they are offering $1k for travel. The other $1k is the person's prize money for making it to the final 16. So the question is: is playing for 2 months and losing money on travel worth it to you for a chance to play in a finals tournament where you could be out in 2 games (Ret and Boxer in NASL S1)? The player/team in question would be losing money because the $1k prize pool is essentially money earned from doing well over 9 weeks. Obviously, for some like EG who are in the US, the ROI is worth it. The Korean teams didn't think so. Disagree or agree, I think everyone should see the reasoning.
Very good point - However you must consider the ROI besides just the initial money from the prize. Take for example Puma, not because of the whole EG thing, but just in terms of him as a player. I had not heard of him myself before NASL. I think you have to consider player exposure for making and possible doing well in one of these beg events a large part of ROI. After all, these players do not make their money off of prize money, they make it off of their team.
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Thank you for the translations JSy, it's nice to know the netizens across the pool, for the most part, share the same thoughts as the foreign community
Also IUtoss is literally the best ID
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What why! No Koreans makes me sad 
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No oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime and now SLAYERS!!! NOOOO!!! WHY!!! Bought the ticket already, guess there's no way to refund is there? Wish I knew this before my purchase, no Slayers was just the last straw.
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On August 12 2011 11:42 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:39 ryan1894 wrote:
1) Theres a very high chance of a korean winning
2) They are being paid to go there
3) The risk is a few hundred $ per player, and the reward (which is highly likely due to skill differential) is $40k+.
Conclusion: There is little to no risk for newer korean players who havent played on TV in Korea to experience a live audience, and there is a very high chance for the grand prize to go to a Korean, and that would pay for everybody's tickets. Maybe they think this is like a small LAN held in someone's house. They came out to MLG and that was a $5k prize MLG is a weekend tournament that GSL specifically schedules around, where the winners have a chance to get GSL Code S and Code A spots as well as placement into the MLG championship which is a much larger prize pool. and clearly NASL doesn't have a Sundance of their own.
The MLG Championship isn't a larger pool
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On August 12 2011 11:40 JSy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Some more Korean user reactions from http://www.playxp.com/sc2/global/view.php?article_id=3284548prev post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253750¤tpage=54#1077RED1219 (2011-08-12 11:16:04 KST) excuse me but... They're offering $2000 for just coming. Aren't those really favorable conditions?
저기근데.... 2000달러나 걍 오는데 준다는건... 진짜... 진짜진짜 좋은 조건 아닌가여?? 게이보다는레즈 (2011-08-12 11:20:04 KST) Do these guys always make their public announcements so hostile? Even before everytime a player dropped out they'd twist the words to cast them in a bad light. It's as if the head honchos [at NASL] frikkin love trolling tsk tsk....얘네 웃긴게 맨날 공지를 이렇게 공격적으로 쓰네? 예전에도 선수들 빠질때마다 선수 욕먹으라고 존내 안좋은 뉘앙스로만 써놓던데 윗대가리 놈들이 시비거는거 존내 좋아하는듯 ㅉㅉㅉ.... 무지개역장 (2011-08-12 11:20:06 KST) Although it varies from airline to airline, round trip flight is about $1300, add hotel and food costs to that, I don't think one could say the offer is extremely generous. A player that is conservative and probably save a bit of that money, but if they decide to have a good time (e.g., go to Universal Studios, tour Hollywood) they probably won't be left with much.ㄴ항공사마다 다르지만 비행기값이 대체적으로 왕복 1300달러인것에, 호텔비에 식대를 감안하면 좋은 조건이지만 진짜 좋다고는 할수 없을듯. 절약하는 선수는 좀 남겨가겠지만, 이왕 미국간겸에 좀 놀고 (유니버셜 간다던가, 할리우드 관광간다던가) 이러면 얼마 안남을거 같아요. 전부짱 (2011-08-12 11:22:08 KST) If they were eventually going to pull out, it would have been nice to let NASL know earlier. It seems only NASL loses from this, readjusting schedules...결국 출전안할꺼면 빨리 결정해서 알려주지..nasl만 손해본거네요,다시 일정조율해야하니깐.. 전부짱 (2011-08-12 11:25:25 KST) to 무지개역장, To say NASL should consider and include the cost of what Korean players might spend for leisure while in the States... is just... hul-_-;;무지개역장/....nasl 쪽에서, 한국선수들이 미국에서 놀거나, 관광할것을 생각하고 지원금을 책정 해야한다....;라는....건;;;;헐...-_-;; RED1219 (2011-08-12 11:26:41 KST) You go to a tournament to win it. You don't go to take the allowance they give you to party and have a good time. Honestly, having the hotel and food costs paid for is something to be grateful for, isn't it. [감지덕지: proverb/saying roughly equivalent to, "don't look a gift horse in the mouth"]대회참가가 이기는걸 생각하고 가는건데.. 난 주는돈으로 걍 이길생각없고 놀아야지 이런걸로 가는건가여;;; 호텔비에 식비주는것도 솔직히 감지덕지 아닌가요?;;;
Thank you for your translations, really appreciated!
Seems like both scenes are coming to the same conclusion that with the current information it's a completely unreasonable decision on their part.
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EPT
