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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 267

Forum Index > SC2 General
7189 CommentsPost a Reply
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Grimsong
Profile Joined August 2010
United States252 Posts
July 22 2011 00:31 GMT
#5321
On July 22 2011 09:30 OrderlyChaos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:29 Taf the Ghost wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:28 thedz wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:26 Fionn wrote:
I think people are overlooking at how the Korean players won't meet their full potential if they leave Korea. Do you think Puma will get better in North America with worse training partners and the North American server? No, he won't.


From what AG alluded to earlier on the show, it seemed that EG was considering forming something inside of Korea -- maybe even the mythical Korean EG house. Either way, I don't think its probable that EG is getting Koreans without considering the effect that training and practice has on them.


They're building an infrastructure to handle good Korean players.


Just like they built infrastructure to handle Idra in Korea?


Boom.
iluez
Profile Joined April 2008
Korea (South)12 Posts
July 22 2011 00:31 GMT
#5322
On July 22 2011 09:29 megaBICEPS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:27 hewley wrote:
This is so ridiculous. Dj Wheat asks AG whether he contacted coach Lee. And his answer are tons of sentences with no real content. >_<



who cares if he contacted coach lee? that's pumas job


its not his job tho. his job is to win starcraft matches. which is why contacting him and asking him to relay it back to his coach is unfair.
everything fades away to a shade of gray
thanhbao86
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada199 Posts
July 22 2011 00:31 GMT
#5323
On July 22 2011 09:28 megaBICEPS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:24 Chrill wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:22 thanhbao86 wrote:
Contact the god damn coach first. Bam!! Problem solved. This AG dude is just try to drive the conversation away from that.


QFT. Always, ALWAYS contact management first. That's how it's done (more or less) in every bussiness. Problem solved.


LOL no. you think when companies hire employees they contact their bosses before? no, only if they want a reference.


You do if the guy is still working at the other company. The only difference is the contract. In Korea SC2 scene, even without the paper contract, you are should considered yourself under contract, and when EG approached Puma they should have considered him under the contract. You cant say the system doesnot work so you ignore it.
Fat Dragoon
meep
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1699 Posts
July 22 2011 00:32 GMT
#5324
LOL AG telling Milkis he's using loaded terminology.
閑静 しずか (ノ・_・)ノ
Sqq
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway2023 Posts
July 22 2011 00:32 GMT
#5325
On July 22 2011 09:29 Influ wrote:
Alex really doesn't get that avoiding the teams to contact players is a shock to a market that doesn't rely on contracts.


you have no idea what you are talking about.
Dead girls don't say no.
seiferoth10
Profile Joined May 2010
3362 Posts
July 22 2011 00:32 GMT
#5326
On July 22 2011 09:26 dacthehork wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:24 MrDudeMan wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:17 EtohEtoh wrote:
why does Alex always come back to to this growth of ESPORTS thing,
it has nothing to do with why the korean coach is pissed. He's only pissed that EG didn't talk to the team.
Yes, that's a dumb thing to be pissed about when compared to that whole globalization of ESPORTS, but it's still the thing that should be focused on

once again, Rain going to FnaticMSI is the complete counter arguement to what Alex is saying


Because he already addressed that issue. He said that TSL released this news prematurely as Puma has not even signed with EG yet. He goes back to the growth of Esports because he has criticism of the korean "inclusive" method of doing it. And he has good reason to be critical of it as well, even in BW (which is much much larger in korea then SC1), most of the pros do not make a salary. What he is saying is that people should not think that foreigner teams picking up korean players is a bad thing, because it means more money for the players, which we all want. Thats why he gave the brazil example, as brazilian leagues do not pay as much as lets say european leagues, but brazilian players are still able to make money by playing in different leagues.

TSL never talked to EG. Puma comes back and says "I'm leaving the team for EG". Despite the fact TSL housed/fed/trained him with their money for 10 months, the second he wins something EG poached him.

They also tried to poach contracted players (sen) and all the other korean players.


The bolded is my favorite fallacy in this whole thread. Following that logic, any Korean player once they start living in a team house is stuck with the team for life without any chance of mobility. Nice one.
felizuno
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States164 Posts
July 22 2011 00:32 GMT
#5327
I really think this event is shining a light on a fact that a lot of (now former) TSL players have realized, Mr. Lee seems to be mismanaging his organization. He publicly apologizes to Tester for not delivering on the expectations he set, he is hemmoraging the TOP of his team, not the bottom, and now this. I would submit that this whole shitstorm was started by Mr. Lee opening his mouth EXTREMELY prematurely. If Puma isn't even signed to EG then there is nothing for Mr. Lee to talk about, and if he kept his mouth shut this could have all worked out behind closed doors.
Fundamentals are the crutch of the talentless
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5328
On July 22 2011 09:30 SiguR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:26 Domination wrote:
"So have you reached out to Mr. Lee"

*2 minutes straight of AG talking*

It's a yes or no question.......


Did you not listen to what he said, and can you not comprehend how it is reasonable that he hasn't?

I'm getting an overwhelming sense that most of the people bashing EG right now are either very young or completely oblivious. He has been more than fair in the discussion and acknowledged and addressed all of milkis' points and djwheat's questions.


EG is an easy target for the young and silly.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Blasphemi
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom980 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5329
On July 22 2011 09:29 dacthehork wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:29 Taf the Ghost wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:28 thedz wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:26 Fionn wrote:
I think people are overlooking at how the Korean players won't meet their full potential if they leave Korea. Do you think Puma will get better in North America with worse training partners and the North American server? No, he won't.


From what AG alluded to earlier on the show, it seemed that EG was considering forming something inside of Korea -- maybe even the mythical Korean EG house. Either way, I don't think its probable that EG is getting Koreans without considering the effect that training and practice has on them.


They're building an infrastructure to handle good Korean players.

they've been talking about that for how long? Really want to see EG do that. Seems like they want to buy top players instead of supporting their team in america.

Letting axslav and incontrol practice with puma will help them a lot More than playing a random na terran
InvalidID
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1050 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 00:34:28
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5330
On July 22 2011 09:31 thanhbao86 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:28 megaBICEPS wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:24 Chrill wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:22 thanhbao86 wrote:
Contact the god damn coach first. Bam!! Problem solved. This AG dude is just try to drive the conversation away from that.


QFT. Always, ALWAYS contact management first. That's how it's done (more or less) in every bussiness. Problem solved.


LOL no. you think when companies hire employees they contact their bosses before? no, only if they want a reference.


You do if the guy is still working at the other company. The only difference is the contract. In Korea SC2 scene, even without the paper contract, you are should considered yourself under contract, and when EG approached Puma they should have considered him under the contract. You cant say the system doesnot work so you ignore it.


No, you do not. That is not common in any industry. Why would they talk to your employer? What would they gain out of it. They simply give you a better offer then you are currently getting, and no-one is begrudged. If there is a contract, they simply pay the buyout fee.
Domination
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1177 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5331
On July 22 2011 09:30 SiguR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:26 Domination wrote:
"So have you reached out to Mr. Lee"

*2 minutes straight of AG talking*

It's a yes or no question.......


Did you not listen to what he said, and can you not comprehend how it is reasonable that he hasn't?

Not really, because I prefer my Yes or No questions to be answered with a Yes or a No. Feel free to add details afterwards but I want that definitive answer. I'm weird that way.
Carkis
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada302 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5332
Wow huge news, Honestly Ive never liked EG a ton vrs other foreign teams they always seem to have some conduct issues. It is exciting to see a player like puma join a foreign team though. I wonder what will come of this.
Diglett
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
600 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5333
On July 22 2011 09:29 megaBICEPS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:27 hewley wrote:
This is so ridiculous. Dj Wheat asks AG whether he contacted coach Lee. And his answer are tons of sentences with no real content. >_<



who cares if he contacted coach lee? that's pumas job


the point is that there are certain ways to answer yes or no questions. here they are:

1. "yes"
2. "no"
3. "i don't know"

ag did none of those.
Twoinches
Profile Joined April 2010
United States131 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5334
All I have taken from this thread is this.

People Hate when other people get the CHANCE OF A LIFETIME.

this Kid may MAY have done ok even gone to code s after what 4-5 months. when this other company comes a long and says "hey we will pay you to travel all over the world and play in TONS of different tourneys, your young enjoy life and we will bankroll that". Outside of Korea this kid will live the fucking dream. if you were 19 and played with friends and a guy gave you the same deal but you had to leave your friends for a couple years, you would be a idiot for not taking that.

Poor Puma for having fun.
Paris hilton Is my Lord and Savior
EtohEtoh
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada669 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5335
On July 22 2011 09:31 Grimsong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:29 Influ wrote:
Alex really doesn't get that avoiding the teams to contact players is a shock to a market that doesn't rely on contracts.


Yet in BW they used contracts and pride themselves around Kespas structure?

What did I miss?


SC2 Korea =/= BW (kespa) Korea

SC2 korea was naive model, yes, so this was a shock, it was bound to happen, you can't have something that fragile.
Kinda the Korean teams fault that this happened, but, in this shock, it looks like they'll be turning back to the same Kespa-esque model that they tried to turn away from after all of them were burned in BW
Fishriot
Profile Joined May 2010
United States621 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5336
LOL Milkis is using loaded terminology? I'm starting to have a hard time listening to Alex talking in circles.

rolfe
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1266 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5337
On July 22 2011 08:58 jinorazi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 08:40 jinorazi wrote:
On July 22 2011 08:16 getSome[703] wrote:
On July 22 2011 08:14 namedplayer wrote:
new interview from TSL coach posted on PlayXP

http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3211586


Any chance of a translation? Googletranslate blows


i'll try though i'm at work (has to be done discretely :X)

damn, thats a long interview lol...


i'm sure a well done translation will be done in the near future but i'm kinda bored at work XD

i'll be editing this as more gets done but heres a few lines for now.

+ Show Spoiler +
NASL에서 우승하고 온 이호준을 방출한다는 소식을 접했다. 북미 e스포츠 팀인 EG(Evil Geniuses)에 입단한다고 들었는데 어떻게 된 일인가.
Rurmor started Puma might be leaving after winning NASL, joining EG. What happened?
- 호준이가 귀국하고 왔는데 3일 동안 한숨을 쉬더라. 아니, 우승을 하고 온 애가 왜 한숨을 쉬고 있는지 신경 쓰였다. 그리고 GSTL 경기를 가졌고 팀이 승리를 했다. 그런대 또 한숨을 쉬고 있더라. 1년 가량을 데리고 있으면서 그런 모습을 본적이 없었다. 분명히 이상함을 느끼고 물어 봤는데 답을 하지 않았다. 몇 번을 물어도 마찬가지였다. GSTL 경기가 끝나고 다음 날 정도였던 것 같다. 힘들게 얘기를 하더라. 고민하고 있는 중이라고 말이다. 얘기를 들어보니 어느 정도 가기로 결심한 것을 직각했다.
After Puma returned, he sighed for 3 days. It bothered me why he looked so depressed after winning a tournament. Never seen him like this for the year we've been a team. Afterwards, we won the GSTL game. Something was weird so I asked what was going on but he did not answer. Even after many tries, he did not answer. Day after GSTL, he spoke what was in his mind with difficulties. He was having a hard time deciding something, after listening for a bit, i realized he plans to leave.

▼ 굉장히 착잡했을 것 같다.
Must have been hard.
- 당연하다. 원기와 기수가 팀에서 나갈 때 남은 선수들끼리 잘 해보자며 똘똘 뭉쳤었다. 그리고 크고 작은 해외 대회 성적도 괜찮았다. 그런데 그런 얘길 들으니 머릿속이 까매지더라.
Of course. After trickster and fd left, the remaining members came together to work harder. After that, we got results in small and big foreign tournaments. hearing puma's words disturbed me.

▼ 붙잡기도 했을 것 같은데 어떤 대화들이 오갔나.
You must have tried to keep him, what were the conversations?
- 이렇게 가는 건 아니다. 감독인 나를 통한 이적도 아니고 트레이드도 아닌 이 상황은 정말 아니다고 말했다. 싫은 소리도 많이 나오고 구설수에도 오를 수 있다고도 했지만 호준이는 다 이겨낼 수 있다고 하더라. 그리고 미안해 했고 EG에 대해서도 많이 안다고 했다. 언제가 되든 안볼 것도 아니기 때문에 그래도 좋게 나갔다. 팀원들도 배웅해 주고 말이다.
"Not like this." No one in TSL was contacted, i felt this shouldn't be how it is. There will be hateful words and lots of criticism but Puma insisted we'll get through it. Puma feels sorry and Puma knows a lot about EG. It isn't over, we'll still see each other, he departed with good relationship. his teammates supported him too.

▼ 최근 ‘리빌딩’을 선언한 후라 팀 내부 분위기도 영향이 있었을 것 같다.
Looks like this news will influence Hoora(?) team thats going through "rebuilding"
- 처음 팀에 들어올 땐 그런 내색도 없었고, 뭐라도 할 것처럼 왔던 선수가 내면을 숨겼던 거니 어찌할 수 없는 상황이었다. 상호와 규종이가 많이 걱정했다. 본인들도 그런 제안이 왔었던 적이 있어 더 그런 것 같더라.
He didn't have such intentions when he first joined the team, but if any, its been kept a secret so there's nothing that i could have done. Sangho and Gyujong(?) worried a lot because they have recieved offers from other teams too.

▼ 팀의 다른 선수들도 직접적인 제안이 오간 것 인가.
Have other members been approached too?
- 그렇다. 이번 일을 통해 알게 됐다. 상호나 규종이는 그런 제안이 왔을 때 바로 거절을 했고, 같이 시작한 나와 팀을 존중했기 때문에 그런 결정을 했다고 하더라. 그리고 거절한 내용을 굳이 밝히고 싶지 않다고 했다. 내가 신경 쓰이고 걱정할 것을 우려한 것 같다.
Yes. Thats how i found out. Sangho and Gyujong rejected offers right away because they valued TSL as its first members a long with me(coach lee). They didn't want to say much details regarding the offer and why they rejected because they felt it would just distract me.

▼ 왜 이런 일이 발생했다고 생각하나.
Why do you think something like this happened?
- 규종이 경우엔 해외 팬이 많다. 2~3천 정도 되는 걸로 아는 트위터의 팔로워가 거의 해외 팬들이다. 물론 상호도 마찬가지다. 우승자가 출신이 아닌 것에 비해 인기가 많은 편이라고 생각한다. 호준이 경우엔 NASL 우승 때문에 그런 제안들이 온 것 같다. 하지만, 짧은 시간에 그런 결정을 했다는 게 아쉬울 뿐이다. 사실, 내 입장에선 고민한다고 해도 섭섭한 감정이 없잖아 있다.
As for Gyujong, he has many fans. 2 to 3 thousand from twitter and most are foreigners. Same with sangho. I think, for not having won any major tournaments, their fan base is very good. Puma winning the NASL created this situation. I'm only dissapointed that the decision was made in such a short time. From what i could tell, though he felt worried, he didn't seem upset.

▼ 그럼 왜 그런 결정을 했을거라 생각하나.
Why do you think he made the decision?
- 아무래도 환경 문제가 큰 것 같다. 스타크래프트2 선수들이 선수로서 지내는 현재의 상황 말이다. 호준이가 코드S였다면 고민하지 않았을 것 같다. 선수 입장에선 코드S 진입도 힘들고 우승도 더더욱 힘든 상황이라 문이 좁다. GSL만을 보고 꿈꾸고 왔는데 해외를 경험 해보고 오니, 지금까지 해 온 것이 큰 비중을 차지하지 않았다라는 생각을 한 것 같다. 해외의 임팩트를 경험했기 때문에 더욱 달콤하지 않았을까 생각한다.
i think the environment was the main cause, talking about sc2 players playing as professional gamers. If he was already in code s, he wouldn't have worried. as a progamer, entering code s is very hard and winning is even much harder, and this situation causes problems. after only dreaming about GSL and winning a foreign tournament, he felt he missed out on all the potential as a progamer. i think the foreign tournament left a good impression on him.

▼ 현재 국내 스타크래프트2 대회에 대한 불만도 있는 것 같다.
There seems to be criticism on korean tournaments.
- 없다면 거짓말이다. GSL의 진입 장벽은 생각보다 높다. 그리고 국내에 다른 리그가 없는 것도 어느 정도 문제점이 된다고 본다.
It'll be a lie to say there isnt. penetrating GSL is harder it seems. lack of other tournament is a problem too.

▼ 그럼 왜 사전에 계약서를 작성하지 않았나.
Why didn't you make a contract?
- 처음에는 계약서를 작성하려고 했다. 팀원들도 동의 했었다. 하지만, 선수들이 너무 진실된 열정과 가능성이 보여 당분간은 쓸 필요 없겠다란 생각을 했다. 절대 믿었다. 지금은 조금 후회 된다.
I wanted to at first, team members agreed. However, i saw so much geuine passion and potential, i didnt think its something that needs to be done right away. I trusted, i regret a little now.

▼ 이상하게도 TSL에서 많은 선수들이 나간 것으로 보인다. 아무래도 기존 팀원의 수가 많지 않아 그래 보이겠지만, 그에 따른 코멘트가 없었다. 지금 이 자리를 통해 밝혀 볼 수 있겠나.
it seems lot of TSL members are overseas but there no comments regarding this, can you elaborate?
- 서용이는 아버님께서 뉴욕에 계셨고, 원래부터 꿈이 해외 진출이었다. 팀을 나간 후 지금의 프나틱과 교섭한 것이라 지금의 호준이와는 상황이 달랐다. 팀을 나간 이유는 리빌딩 당시 여러 문제가 있었는데 그것이 계기가 됐다.
Seoyong's father is in new york and original goal was going overseas. after leaving the team, he is in negociations with fnatic, its a different situation than Puma. problems during the "rebuilding" was the reason for him leaving.
.

hey thanks for the translation by the way
life will not be contained. Life breaks free, it expands to new territories and crashes through barriers, painfully, maybe even dangerously but there it is. Life finds a way
Yew
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States940 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5338
On July 22 2011 09:32 felizuno wrote:
I really think this event is shining a light on a fact that a lot of (now former) TSL players have realized, Mr. Lee seems to be mismanaging his organization. He publicly apologizes to Tester for not delivering on the expectations he set, he is hemmoraging the TOP of his team, not the bottom, and now this. I would submit that this whole shitstorm was started by Mr. Lee opening his mouth EXTREMELY prematurely. If Puma isn't even signed to EG then there is nothing for Mr. Lee to talk about, and if he kept his mouth shut this could have all worked out behind closed doors.

How the hell is Lee supposed to know that Puma isn't signed to EG, when NOBODY TALKS TO HIM.
Chrill
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden91 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 00:34:47
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5339
On July 22 2011 09:28 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:24 Chrill wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:22 thanhbao86 wrote:
Contact the god damn coach first. Bam!! Problem solved. This AG dude is just try to drive the conversation away from that.


QFT. Always, ALWAYS contact management first. That's how it's done (more or less) in every bussiness. Problem solved.


In any sports, no, it isn't. You contact the agents first, to gauge interest. Then you approach management. Puma was to do the "approach management", it seems like it failed a bit.


I don't see how they thought Puma talking to his coach was a good idea. Like someone else just said, they should've just gone and said "Hey, we're interested in Puma and we're going to contact him about this". The whole agent thing is total shit. I remember barcelona contacting arsenal players promising shitloads of money, then they go ahead and contact arsenal giving a shitty bid on the player, knowing that they would decline. BUt then the player gets mad because his club said no, and request a transfer, then they have to sell him for less money than he's "worth". That's foul tactics, nothing illegal about though. Wich is my point, they did nothing wrong legally, but ethically, Puma represented TSL, they should've atleast given the team a heads up first, imo.
thanhbao86
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada199 Posts
July 22 2011 00:33 GMT
#5340
On July 22 2011 09:28 Darkong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 09:24 thanhbao86 wrote:
On July 22 2011 09:23 DEN1ED wrote:
Why is everyone making such a big deal about this. The entire issue is just that the TSL coach is upset because they didn't talk to him first. EG thought that they had gone about things the proper way but when realizing TSL was upset, apologized. And now it has turned in to some huge debate about international esports. wtf.


Exactly this. This AG dude is trying to drive the conversation away from the fact that EG has done it the wrong way.

So, his publicly appologising for the situation and saying he'll speak with Mr Lee was driving the conversation away? Explain that to me please.


Apologising personally is not enough. He comes to Korea, the system there works or not, you gotta respect that and admit that you have done it wrong. He said he is sorry but he is sure he did it right.
Fat Dragoon
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