|
On July 16 2011 00:59 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:38 Eleaven wrote:
This is NOT a competitive tool. It's specifically designed to be used when practicing at home. He isn't going to win any tournaments because a jpg is reminding him to build SCV's. At the competitive level, that sort of thing is already ingrained. Oh okay, it's fine to do it against ladder opponents but not at LAN's? Hmm, I guess let's just believe that the internet and the OP is full of good then and assume that nobody will ever use that in a ladder game or any competitive online-game (plenty of online cups with prize money.), you're totally right. About the "being ingrained" - I can tell you even the best players do make mistakes if their opponent pressure's them and it's CLEARLY an advantage to be reminded about certain timingwindows rather than "making an SCV". You also seem to fail at reading or you've simply ignored my argument that you can do everything with this tool, not just SCV's. Expansion timings, timing's for allin defense of offense, whatever, you just have to edit it in. And he's even giving an instruction on how to do that. L O L .
It doesn't matter what can be done with it, you don't have an argument at all "you can make a timer for timings too!!!!!xx!!!11!!" That's not an argument, it's a statement of fact, and if it helps some guy learn his timings then go for it, how do you plan on stopping them?
The best players aren't going to stop making mistakes because of a .jpg. I can tell you with certainty that even with a timer you will still make mistakes in the heat of the moment, or miss injects, not because you forgot to make scv's or inject, but because you simply don't have the ability to do those things under unusual pressure.
And you've hit on a good point that i've brought up before. online tournaments should NOT ever hand out money prizes, because you can guaran-fucking-tee that people will be cheating. It's human nature. If TT1 will maphack, so will some random diamond scrub in a $50 online tournament.
Drawing comparisons to cheating at lans is so batshit retarded, you really should understand the difference between learning at home in a non competitive environment like ladder (if you still feel ladder is competitive then i'm sorry for you) and competing for money face to face
|
On July 16 2011 00:58 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:53 Samhax wrote:On July 16 2011 00:49 Eleaven wrote:On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote:
Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point? The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious? Hum i'm not convinced, i can't see this type of thing making you a better player sorry :p When you are used to something, it's hard to play without it at the same level. You mean like learning a song with a metronome, and then suddenly you can't play it when you take the metronome away? Or learning to ride a bike with stabilisers, and then once your confident and take them away you suddenly just can't ride at all any more? Learning doesn't work that way.
You sure are a master of how to learn and become a better player in sc2 with your analogies. Someone who wants to become pro can't think seriously that something like that will help him. Anyway i thinks this type of tool is purely for bad players, so i'm not worried at all, you can have fun with your baby-sitting tool.
|
As I said before, the only reasonable way forward from this is to incorporate it into a custom map via map editor -
Everyone knows it's being used, there is no possibility of it being view as a hack and it would actually be gain from added functionality with SC2.
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On July 16 2011 01:06 Eleaven wrote:
And you've hit on a good point that i've brought up before. online tournaments should NOT ever hand out money prizes, because you can guaran-fucking-tee that people will be cheating. It's human nature. If TT1 will maphack, so will some random diamond scrub in a $50 online tournament.
So that's your point on it. And it just proved to me that you're one fucking retard. Sorry, I do lack of other words to describe you and people like you.
Yea, it's human nature as long as faggots who tolerate it like you exist.
|
awesome. i might actually try this. ladder is for learning thats what everyone says. What better way to get better than to have a thing pop up. then it becomes habit and you are doing it even when its not there.
|
I must say, I strongly agree that there is a significant difference between playing ladder games (practicing) and playing at a tournament competing for $$$.
That's why you can have a pro helping you out telling you what to do and coaching you on ladder (in a similar way to how this program works), but obviously not at a tourney.
|
On July 16 2011 01:06 djengizz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:44 Eleaven wrote:
independent != 3rd party.
Your definition of cheater does not fit anybody who uses something like this, as it is by definition, not 3rd party. It's completely isolated. I think you don't understand what third party means. Any program that is used to do something related to SC2 but is not made by Blizzard is a third party tool. Being able to run isolated from the client or not has nothing to do with it. Sc2Gears, BO calculators and even a website like SC2Ranks can be considered a third party tool. The point is if it alters your game experience it's not allowed. Since the orginal game doesn't have images popup at certain timings related to the game this tool falls into that category. My guess is that the maker of this tool had absolutely no intention to cheat and made this from for training purposes alone. However he is (unintentionally) walking a very thin line which is not clearly set by Blizzard.
The technical definition pertains to whether or not something directly interacts with the process itself.
It's very simple =\.
Your also blurring the words tool and program now, getting vague won't help at all.
Infernal, i recommend taking a couple of hours at least to just sit back and calm down, your no better than the peasant with a pitchfork screaming "burn the witch" at this moment in time.
Please try to remember back to the time where you'd write build orders down, and put them on monitor 2, or a piece of paper or put them in a "always on top" image viewer. This was a much easier way to learn build orders than to just try to remember 20-30 different events and timings.
Cheating of course by most definitions now. maybe you should pm day9 too and ask him to stop using notepad.. it's a slippery slope bro's
|
On July 16 2011 01:06 Eleaven wrote:Drawing comparisons to cheating at lans is so batshit retarded, you really should understand the difference between learning at home in a non competitive environment like ladder (if you still feel ladder is competitive then i'm sorry for you) and competing for money face to face
It doesn't matter if you view ladder as a competitive environment, other people do. You're infringing on their enjoyment in what they view as competition by cheating. You've already said earlier in this thread that you use a "training tool" so it's understandable that you're trying to defend this. However, the vast majority of people aren't going to agree with you.
And stop double posting. See that edit button? Use it.
|
On July 16 2011 01:07 Samhax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:58 Eleaven wrote:On July 16 2011 00:53 Samhax wrote:On July 16 2011 00:49 Eleaven wrote:On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote:
Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point? The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious? Hum i'm not convinced, i can't see this type of thing making you a better player sorry :p When you are used to something, it's hard to play without it at the same level. You mean like learning a song with a metronome, and then suddenly you can't play it when you take the metronome away? Or learning to ride a bike with stabilisers, and then once your confident and take them away you suddenly just can't ride at all any more? Learning doesn't work that way. You sure are a master of how to learn and become a better player in sc2 with your analogies. Someone who wants to become pro can't think seriously that something like that will help him. Anyway i thinks this type of tool is purely for bad players, so i'm not worried at all, you can have fun with your baby-sitting tool.
Nice post, this is clearly aimed at low level players who want to get better faster, this has absolutely nothing to do with competitive pro level play, which is exactly what the reasonable posters have been saying all along.
If i was still at the level where i was consistently making SCV errors, then you BET i'd try using this, unfortunately it's not the case, keep on being elitist tho, makes you seem classy 
@Angryfeetus (fitting name)
"It doesn't matter if you view ladder as a competitive environment, other people do. You're infringing on their enjoyment in what they view as competition by cheating. You've already said earlier in this thread that you use a "training tool" so it's understandable that you're trying to defend this. However, the vast majority of people aren't going to agree with you.
And stop double posting. See that edit button? Use it."
I said i used a timer about a year ago to learn injects. Don't twist things to try to create an argument lol.
Edit: also would you really enjoy a game less just because your opponent MAYBE had more consistent scv production? come on now =\
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On July 16 2011 01:13 Eleaven wrote:
Infernal, i recommend taking a couple of hours at least to just sit back and calm down, your no better than the peasant with a pitchfork screaming "burn the witch" at this moment in time.
I'm quite calm but people like you make me want to throw up upon.
Burn the witch?
Nah, ban cheaters and anything even remotely likely to it.
I'm not frustrated because I had to use a 2nd monitor as you assume (in fact I didn't even use a notepad, guess what, memorizing does the trick if you play something as long and much as I did play BroodWar), it's just very sad to see that despite already having MBS, Automining and AutoCast people are finding ways to completely get rid of any sort of skill involved in macro.
Compare this to a small chip inside a football players brain that tells him when the exactly best moment to shoot or pass would be.
Yes, a really really good player should know it anyway - however this could make anybody really good. But hey, it would only be a reminder as well, not doping, thus fair huh?
|
On July 16 2011 00:43 Charger wrote:
However, Windows and an image viewer are not unauthorized 3rd party programs.
No they are not but they can be used to alter the game experience making their use illegal and again your statement was that it was undetectable (in quite a condensending way) while it's not:
On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote:
HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever.
You would be surprised about what they can actually monitor when they have access to your RAM and can make OS API calls.
|
On July 16 2011 01:15 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 01:07 Samhax wrote:On July 16 2011 00:58 Eleaven wrote:On July 16 2011 00:53 Samhax wrote:On July 16 2011 00:49 Eleaven wrote:On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote:
Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point? The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious? Hum i'm not convinced, i can't see this type of thing making you a better player sorry :p When you are used to something, it's hard to play without it at the same level. You mean like learning a song with a metronome, and then suddenly you can't play it when you take the metronome away? Or learning to ride a bike with stabilisers, and then once your confident and take them away you suddenly just can't ride at all any more? Learning doesn't work that way. You sure are a master of how to learn and become a better player in sc2 with your analogies. Someone who wants to become pro can't think seriously that something like that will help him. Anyway i thinks this type of tool is purely for bad players, so i'm not worried at all, you can have fun with your baby-sitting tool. Nice post, this is clearly aimed at low level players who want to get better faster, this has absolutely nothing to do with competitive pro level play, which is exactly what the reasonable posters have been saying all along. If i was still at the level where i was consistently making SCV errors, then you BET i'd try using this, unfortunately it's not the case, keep on being elitist tho, makes you seem classy @Angryfeetus (fitting name) "It doesn't matter if you view ladder as a competitive environment, other people do. You're infringing on their enjoyment in what they view as competition by cheating. You've already said earlier in this thread that you use a "training tool" so it's understandable that you're trying to defend this. However, the vast majority of people aren't going to agree with you. And stop double posting. See that edit button? Use it." I said i used a timer about a year ago to learn injects. Don't twist things to try to create an argument lol.
It's not just for scv, you can use it for all the buildings and all the different type of timers. That's why Pros spam alot to check all their timer (RAX, WG cooldown, hatch for larva inject, etc.). this tool can help any player from bronze to master, but it will not make you a better player. I'm far away from being perfect in injection for example, so i can use it, but i won't, because it will not help me when i will not have this tool, and it's forbidden in LAN event.
|
On July 16 2011 01:19 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 01:13 Eleaven wrote:
Infernal, i recommend taking a couple of hours at least to just sit back and calm down, your no better than the peasant with a pitchfork screaming "burn the witch" at this moment in time.
I'm quite calm but people like you make me want to throw up upon. Burn the witch? Nah, ban cheaters and anything even remotely likely to it. I'm not frustrated because I had to use a 2nd monitor as you assume (in fact I didn't even use a notepad, guess what, memorizing does the trick if you play something as long and much as I did play BroodWar), it's just very sad to see that despite already having MBS, Automining and AutoCast people are finding ways to completely get rid of any sort of skill involved in macro. Compare this to a small chip inside a football players brain that tells him when the exactly best moment to shoot or pass would be. Yes, a really really good player should know it anyway - however this could make anybody really good. But hey, it would only be a reminder as well, not doping, thus fair huh?
It was pretty obvious you were speaking from an anti-sc2 position, but this post confirms it.
like i said, you're just mad that you took the hard way, and not everyone is that dumb :S.
If you learn by pure memorisation then good for you, not many people can hold so much new information at once. Quite the talent! Again, you made my argument for me. You spent a very very very long time doing something that you could have done in a fraction of the time (like learning builds)
You know in pro-houses the coaches help them? i guess your response is "whats the point when they can do it all alone the hard way,.. it's forbidden at lan!!!!11"
|
As this thread seems to be going nowhere fast, I'm just going to put in my final thoughts and let the arguing continue.
Is this a helpful training tool? Yeah, for sure.
Is it against the TOS? Maybe, it's up to interpretation.
Is it morally right or wrong to use it? I don't know, that's up to each potential user.
Can Blizzard do anything to stop this particular system? Absolutely no way in hell.
In conclusion, it is not possible to police stuff like this. Just like Blizzard can't stop someone from using an audible timer to remind them of game specific timings or a friend sitting next to you coaching you the whole time through games. Take it for what it actually is - a good training tool like all of the others out there that can also be considered 'cheating' and walk the morally grey area.
|
On July 16 2011 01:22 Charger wrote:
As this thread seems to be going nowhere fast, I'm just going to put in my final thoughts and let the arguing continue.
Is this a helpful training tool? Yeah, for sure.
Is it against the TOS? Maybe, it's up to interpretation.
Is it morally right or wrong to us it? I don't know, that's up to each potential user.
Can Blizzard do anything to stop this particular system? Absolutely no way in hell.
In conclusion, it is not possible to police stuff like this. Just like Blizzard can't stop someone from using an audible timer to remind them of game specific timings or a friend sitting next to you coaching you the whole time through games. Take it for what it actually is - a good training tool like all of the others out there that can also be considered 'cheating' and walk the morally grey area.
Summed up nicely, and your right. it's a waste of energy to continue with anything further.
Nail on the head
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On July 16 2011 01:20 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 01:19 iNfeRnaL wrote:On July 16 2011 01:13 Eleaven wrote:
Infernal, i recommend taking a couple of hours at least to just sit back and calm down, your no better than the peasant with a pitchfork screaming "burn the witch" at this moment in time.
I'm quite calm but people like you make me want to throw up upon. Burn the witch? Nah, ban cheaters and anything even remotely likely to it. I'm not frustrated because I had to use a 2nd monitor as you assume (in fact I didn't even use a notepad, guess what, memorizing does the trick if you play something as long and much as I did play BroodWar), it's just very sad to see that despite already having MBS, Automining and AutoCast people are finding ways to completely get rid of any sort of skill involved in macro. Compare this to a small chip inside a football players brain that tells him when the exactly best moment to shoot or pass would be. Yes, a really really good player should know it anyway - however this could make anybody really good. But hey, it would only be a reminder as well, not doping, thus fair huh? It was pretty obvious you were speaking from an anti-sc2 position, but this post confirms it. like i said, you're just mad that you took the hard way, and not everyone is that dumb :S. If you learn by pure memorisation then good for you, not many people can hold so much new information at once. Quite the talent!
a) I play SC2 myself, I like the game, I even like that it's easier for newbs nowadays. Guess what, it helps me as well because SC2 is a different game than Broodwar that I have to learn as well.
b) You ignore my arguments yet again.
c) Everybody can memorize as much as I did if he just puts effort into it. I'm quite sure I can do it in SC2 as well, without notepads or any cheats like this. The only "talent" behind it would be dedication.
d) You're a clown that tries to make others look bad to make his own position look better than it actually is by derailing every sort of argument brought up against you, such as that nice little PM you've just sent my trying to provoke me.
===>
From: Eleaven [ 665 posts | Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: You thick cunt.
Date: 7/16/11 01:18
Nothing else to say, sorry didn't realise you were just interested in insulting people.
Just because your too thick to see the benefits for a silver league player doesn't mean you should just shit all over an idea. especially when you don't understand it.
Maybe he's infringing on your market tho? Your like a drug dealer getting mad that people are using other product.
__
Done with you.
Go defend the cheaters further and use poor arguments trying to make yourself look less like the retard you are at doing so.
Have a nice day.
(Also, don't PM me any further, I'll put you on my ignore list after finishing this post anyway. ^^)
Edit: Okay nevermind, I can't even ignore you. But be sure I'll report your PM's if you continue anyway.
|
On July 16 2011 01:06 Eleaven wrote:
It doesn't matter what can be done with it, you don't have an argument at all "you can make a timer for timings too!!!!!xx!!!11!!" That's not an argument, it's a statement of fact, and if it helps some guy learn his timings then go for it, how do you plan on stopping them?
I can't stop them from using it, I don't think anyone right now can stop them. (In fact, for me personally, I'd say whatever works)
People are stating their opinions. And they think using this wrong.
"What can be done with it" is very often used to make somewhat reasonable arguments.
Guns are used to protect...what can be done with it?
Cars are designed to help transport people, what can be done with it?
Alcohol may be meant to help people relax, what can be done with it?
Or to specifically address training? what about steroids?
Of course these are drastic comparisons, but they can still be made.
These are valid points to make, and everyone can have differing opinions.
On July 16 2011 01:13 Angry_Fetus wrote:
It doesn't matter if you view ladder as a competitive environment, other people do. You're infringing on their enjoyment in what they view as competition by cheating.
|
On July 16 2011 00:37 djengizz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote:
HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever. This is what you agreed to when you installed the game (maybe you should actually start reading this stuff before you lash out at someone): Show nested quote +
Consent to Monitor.
When running, the game may monitor your computer's random access memory (ram) for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with the game.
Blizzard is known to use OS API's to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer.
reading the ram won't detect the alert image....
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On July 16 2011 01:29 mindwave1sg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:37 djengizz wrote:On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote:
HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever. This is what you agreed to when you installed the game (maybe you should actually start reading this stuff before you lash out at someone):
Consent to Monitor.
When running, the game may monitor your computer's random access memory (ram) for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with the game.
Blizzard is known to use OS API's to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer. reading the ram won't detect the alert image....
That's probably the worst thing about this.
You can cheat without even being noticed.
Hell yeah, it was about time.
|
On July 16 2011 01:13 Eleaven wrote:
The technical definition pertains to whether or not something directly interacts with the process itself.
It's very simple =\.
Your also blurring the words tool and program now, getting vague won't help at all.
No, it's not.
As a software developer i've created enough thrid party tools that do not interact directly with the software they are intended for.
And yes, a program can be a tool and a tool can be a program, i'm sorry you don't see that. That doesn't make it vague.
Stop trying to be Mr Knowitall when you're actually wrong about a lot of things you state.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
