What I have put together some batch files that will use irfanview to repeatedly bring up an overlay on top of the control groups visible area for a few seconds. There are methods out there to remind players to keep up with macro activities like mule, inject, build workers, http://injectlarvae.com/ is an example, but this method seems new and didn't come up when I searched for it. I don't think this breaks the TOS, and even if it did I don't know how blizzard could monitor it.
Specifics My setup brings up an "S" over the top of control group 5 every 12 seconds or so, to remind me to build SCVs, 5 being my command center control group and S being for build SCV. It would be pretty easy to modify the image, timing and position for mules, crono boosts, injects, or whatever you want.
The files are simple and should be pretty understandable, but also they are only going to look right if you have the same resolution as me (or fiddle some numbers), I am guessing you should also run Windowed-Fullscreen. I should mention this will probably only work on XP out of the box, some tweaking would have to be done for vista win7 and mac.
Pictures dammit!
How to do it 1. Install irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ set it to be always on top (options, tick always on top)
2. Either unzip the file (http://www.mediafire.com/?3heiidr8cdcgdch) to C:/_SC2 or go to the following "set it up from scratch" section if you don't like downloading random zips
3. Run the Tick.bat
You can also make a shortcut of the batch file (has to be on the desktop for XP) and give it a shortcut key combination to start it at the start of the game, and you can easily make another batch script to kill cmd.exe to turn it off.
Set it up from scratch 1. Make a folder! Name: C:\_SC2
2. Make a .BMP Name: scv.bmp 44x18 pixels with an "s" and some amount of artistic design
3. Make batch file 1 Name: MAKEIMG.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rem be in the right folder, standard install c: cd C:\Program Files\IrfanView
rem create in pos x, y i_view32.exe c:\_sc2\scv.bmp /pos (528,687) /hide=15 /resample ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Make batch file 2 Name: TICK.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: cd C:\_SC2 :start rem - Start up the process again. rem FLASH FOR TWO SECONDS, TWICE link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe ping 127.0.0.1 -n 1 link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe rem CHANGE THIS NUMBER (-n x) FOR THE DELAY ping 127.0.0.1 -n 11 goto:start ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.Make a link Name: link Target: C:\_SC2\MAKEIMG.BAT Start in: C:\_sc2
No one has yet complained about the image coming up in a different spot which if anyone ran the bat file as it is they would, this is because my monitor is 1440 x 900 (shush it was on special).to move it around for your specific resolution you need to edit the MAKEIMG.BAT /pos command.
Use at own risk There is a small risk that using this method will get you banned or make you a worse player. The image viewer irfanview is used by casters for their overlays during replays and I am assuming during live streams as well, also nothing is hooking in to the starcraft2 program or keylogging, or even changing the games feel more than alt tabbing or playing your own music would, so a ban is very unlikely.That said people are currently getting banned and unbanned for less (raidcall) and it is possible that blizzard monitor all your applications during a game and could possibly detect the image viewer start and end several times. If you think a timer that reminds you to do something every 10 seconds will make you worse at doing something every 10 seconds, or if you are competing at LAN events, or could not bear to stop using this setup it could make you worse at sc2.
I think I would classify this as cheating, or at least enabling oneself an advantage that your similarly skilled opposition doesn't have.
Edit: I think it would be sort of OK if it popped up on a seperate monitor or on your mobile phone or something like that, but having it overlay the game is just wrong. If the game was supposed to remind you to inject and build SCVs you would have the option to do so. Some of the skill in this game comes down to being able to remember to do everything you are supposed to do.
Nice Idea, though as NicoLoco already mentioned, i see this as a hack, and it wont be allowed at a tournament, so id say its a pretty bad idea, learn the timings the hardway, play enough and they will come natural to you. But nice idea though
On July 14 2011 19:05 NicoLoco wrote: I think I would classify this as cheating, or at least enabling oneself an advantage that your similarly skilled opposition doesn't have.
Edit: I think it would be sort of OK if it popped up on a seperate monitor or on your mobile phone or something like that, but having it overlay the game is just wrong. If the game was supposed to remind you to inject and build SCVs you would have the option to do so. Some of the skill in this game comes down to being able to remember to do everything you are supposed to do.
SC2 reminds you to inject. I don't support it, but at a certain level it won't help you anymore, because there it's not so much a thing of being able to remind, it's about being able to mechanically do it.
On July 14 2011 18:23 zergrushkekeke wrote: What I have put together some batch files that will use irfanview to repeatedly bring up an overlay on top of the control groups visible area for a few seconds. There are methods out there to remind players to keep up with macro activities like mule, inject, build workers, http://injectlarvae.com/ is an example, but this method seems new and didn't come up when I searched for it. I don't think this breaks the TOS, and even if it did I don't know how blizzard could monitor it.
Specifics My setup brings up an "S" over the top of control group 5 every 12 seconds or so, to remind me to build SCVs, 5 being my command center control group and S being for build SCV. It would be pretty easy to modify the image, timing and position for mules, crono boosts, injects, or whatever you want.
The files are simple and should be pretty understandable, but also they are only going to look right if you have the same resolution as me (or fiddle some numbers), I am guessing you should also run Windowed-Fullscreen. I should mention this will probably only work on XP out of the box, some tweaking would have to be done for vista win7 and mac.
How to do it 1. Install irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ set it to be always on top (options, tick always on top)
2. Either unzip the file (that I'm going to upload somewhere eventually) to C:/_SC2 or go to the following "set it up from scratch" section
3. Run the Tick.bat
You can also make a shortcut of the batch file (has to be on the desktop for XP) and give it a shortcut key combination to start it at the start of the game, I don't know a good way to close it besides just alt tabbing.
set it up from scratch 1. Make a folder! Name: C:\_SC2
2. Make a .BMP Name: scv.bmp 44x18 pixels with an "s" and some amount of artistic design
3. Make batch file 1 Name: MAKEIMG.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rem be in the right folder, standard install c: cd C:\Program Files\IrfanView
rem create in pos x, y i_view32.exe c:\_sc2\scv.bmp /pos (528,687) /hide=15 /resample ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Make batch file 2 Name: TICK.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: cd C:\_SC2 :start rem - Start up the process again. rem FLASH FOR TWO SECONDS, TWICE link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe ping 127.0.0.1 -n 1 link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe rem CHANGE THIS NUMBER (-n x) FOR THE DELAY ping 127.0.0.1 -n 11 goto:start ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.Make a link Name: link Target: C:\_SC2\MAKEIMG.BAT Start in: C:\_sc2
people like you disgust me. trying to gain advantages over others just because you dont have the brains to do something. why not try creating something thats a piece of the actual game like a custom game to help people with their macro?
To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
Gotta admit i hate all these people who talk about "hacks" etc for things that DO NOT interact in any way with starcraft.
This is a fucking timer. A timer that displays an image.
Whether its on monitor 1 or 2 makes absolutely no difference. It's a learning aid at best, and a mildly useless crutch at worst. Don't worry about it. This won't really give anyone competitive an advantage. by masters remembering SCV's should be the least of your worries.
This is absolutely no different from having a coach watch you play and say "make an scv dawwg"
Stop spewing shit basically.
You don't have to agree with it "morally" but to say "oh this is a hack and shud be ban" etc is just retarded.
On July 14 2011 18:23 zergrushkekeke wrote: What I have put together some batch files that will use irfanview to repeatedly bring up an overlay on top of the control groups visible area for a few seconds. There are methods out there to remind players to keep up with macro activities like mule, inject, build workers, http://injectlarvae.com/ is an example, but this method seems new and didn't come up when I searched for it. I don't think this breaks the TOS, and even if it did I don't know how blizzard could monitor it.
Specifics My setup brings up an "S" over the top of control group 5 every 12 seconds or so, to remind me to build SCVs, 5 being my command center control group and S being for build SCV. It would be pretty easy to modify the image, timing and position for mules, crono boosts, injects, or whatever you want.
The files are simple and should be pretty understandable, but also they are only going to look right if you have the same resolution as me (or fiddle some numbers), I am guessing you should also run Windowed-Fullscreen. I should mention this will probably only work on XP out of the box, some tweaking would have to be done for vista win7 and mac.
How to do it 1. Install irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ set it to be always on top (options, tick always on top)
2. Either unzip the file (that I'm going to upload somewhere eventually) to C:/_SC2 or go to the following "set it up from scratch" section
3. Run the Tick.bat
You can also make a shortcut of the batch file (has to be on the desktop for XP) and give it a shortcut key combination to start it at the start of the game, I don't know a good way to close it besides just alt tabbing.
set it up from scratch 1. Make a folder! Name: C:\_SC2
2. Make a .BMP Name: scv.bmp 44x18 pixels with an "s" and some amount of artistic design
3. Make batch file 1 Name: MAKEIMG.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rem be in the right folder, standard install c: cd C:\Program Files\IrfanView
rem create in pos x, y i_view32.exe c:\_sc2\scv.bmp /pos (528,687) /hide=15 /resample ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Make batch file 2 Name: TICK.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: cd C:\_SC2 :start rem - Start up the process again. rem FLASH FOR TWO SECONDS, TWICE link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe ping 127.0.0.1 -n 1 link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe rem CHANGE THIS NUMBER (-n x) FOR THE DELAY ping 127.0.0.1 -n 11 goto:start ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.Make a link Name: link Target: C:\_SC2\MAKEIMG.BAT Start in: C:\_sc2
people like you disgust me. trying to gain advantages over others just because you dont have the brains to do something. why not try creating something thats a piece of the actual game like a custom game to help people with their macro?
HE disgusts you because he found a way to help him learn his macro?
Your the piece of shit here, judging people for doing things differently. "oh but it's okay ifg its an alarm that plays a beep?" (someone else said)
mmk, suppose he's deaf? whether or not he is isnt relevant.
Whilst he's microing his army, it's not his memory failing him, it's his limited mechanical ability failing him. This won't make him better or give him some crazy advantage. IT might solidfy timings in him much like a metronome, just visual.
Calm down, let people learn how they want to learn.. it doesn't break any rules. more practically, even if it did break rules, it's not enforceable.
On July 14 2011 19:05 NicoLoco wrote: I think I would classify this as cheating, or at least enabling oneself an advantage that your similarly skilled opposition doesn't have.
I am not saying that it is "hax and should be banned". Wow, people. Please calm down abit and don't just throw a hissyfit because you have a different opinion than your peers.
My point is that you are better off learning it the hard way, and if you want to set up reminders while playing custom games with friends/practice partners that is totally fine, but on ladder you are giving yourself an advantage that a player of similar skill to yourself doesn't have (or knows about).
I salute the initative, I just would like for people to learn "the hard way".
On July 14 2011 19:05 NicoLoco wrote: I think I would classify this as cheating, or at least enabling oneself an advantage that your similarly skilled opposition doesn't have.
I am not saying that it is "hax and should be banned". Wow, people. Please calm down abit and don't just throw a hissyfit because you have a different opinion than your peers.
My point is that you are better off learning it the hard way, and if you want to set up reminders while playing custom games with friends/practice partners that is totally fine, but on ladder you are giving yourself an advantage that a player of similar skill to yourself doesn't have (or knows about).
I salute the initative, I just would like for people to learn "the hard way".
Please provide evidence for why "your better off to learn the hard way" unless you have proven this in some study im/the world is unaware of, you giving an opinion but stating it as fact.
Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
On July 14 2011 19:05 NicoLoco wrote: I think I would classify this as cheating, or at least enabling oneself an advantage that your similarly skilled opposition doesn't have.
I am not saying that it is "hax and should be banned". Wow, people. Please calm down abit and don't just throw a hissyfit because you have a different opinion than your peers.
My point is that you are better off learning it the hard way, and if you want to set up reminders while playing custom games with friends/practice partners that is totally fine, but on ladder you are giving yourself an advantage that a player of similar skill to yourself doesn't have (or knows about).
I salute the initative, I just would like for people to learn "the hard way".
Please provide evidence for why "your better off to learn the hard way" unless you have proven this in some study im/the world is unaware of, you giving an opinion but stating it as fact.
You are right, I should have said that I THINK that it is better to learn "the hard way". It is my opinion, and I shouldn't have stated it like I was some sort of allknowing learning doctor expert professor.
As I said, I only have a problem with it if you use it on ladder or in tourneys.
That being said. I make SCVs based upon internal timers. I used to forget before, now I don't quite so often. I did it without reminders or other tools. I had a yellow sticky note attached to the bottom of my screen that I had written these things on:
On July 14 2011 19:05 NicoLoco wrote: I think I would classify this as cheating, or at least enabling oneself an advantage that your similarly skilled opposition doesn't have.
I am not saying that it is "hax and should be banned". Wow, people. Please calm down abit and don't just throw a hissyfit because you have a different opinion than your peers.
My point is that you are better off learning it the hard way, and if you want to set up reminders while playing custom games with friends/practice partners that is totally fine, but on ladder you are giving yourself an advantage that a player of similar skill to yourself doesn't have (or knows about).
I salute the initative, I just would like for people to learn "the hard way".
Please provide evidence for why "your better off to learn the hard way" unless you have proven this in some study im/the world is unaware of, you giving an opinion but stating it as fact.
You are right, I should have said that I THINK that it is better to learn "the hard way". It is my opinion, and I shouldn't have stated it like I was some sort of allknowing learning doctor expert professor.
That being said. I make SCVs based upon internal timers. I used to forget before, now I don't quite so often.
Agreed, i also run off an internal timer for my scv production. When i wanted to learn zerg, however, i used a 30 second timer with a beep to train my injects, and after just a few hours i could play without it and had a really solid inner timing set up.
Tools that help people learn stuff quicker are cool. Designing your own methods of faster learning is like the height of intelligence in my opinion. Especially when there's no rules being broken, No laws being ignored
On July 14 2011 19:45 mdb wrote: Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
I doubt he's going to be using this at mlg.
Don't worry about it.
Every time i look at my watch it reminds me to scout.. should i remove it? :S bit of a cheat right? :S
On July 14 2011 19:45 mdb wrote: Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
I doubt he's going to be using this at mlg.
Don't worry about it.
Every time i look at my watch it reminds me to scout.. should i remove it? :S bit of a cheat right? :S
It doesnt matter where people are going to use it, the fact stands - this is cheating and cheating is not good.
On July 14 2011 19:45 mdb wrote: Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
I doubt he's going to be using this at mlg.
Don't worry about it.
Every time i look at my watch it reminds me to scout.. should i remove it? :S bit of a cheat right? :S
This is a file you execute that pops a visible notification on your screen that reminds you to do something that you otherwise might have forgotten.
Please don't compare it to "looking at your watch".
MLG or ladder, it makes no difference. My point is that this can be a tool for people who want to practice their timings and need a reminder, however I sincerely think it shouldn't be used on ladder or in any other competitive scenario.
On July 14 2011 19:45 mdb wrote: Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
I doubt he's going to be using this at mlg.
Don't worry about it.
Every time i look at my watch it reminds me to scout.. should i remove it? :S bit of a cheat right? :S
This is a file you execute that pops a visible notification on your screen that reminds you to do something that you otherwise might have forgotten.
Please don't compare it to "looking at your watch".
MLG or ladder, it makes no difference. My point is that this can be a tool for people who want to practice their timings and need a reminder, however I sincerely think it shouldn't be used on ladder or in any other competitive scenario.
Good to know what you think =\, now what are you going to do about it?
There's really 2 options here
A) Encourage people to find ways to learn things quickly B) Shit on new idea's because you don't like them
Neither of these options really DO anything, but i'm fairly sure option A can only lead to better things. Unless your willing to find some amazing way to stop this usage based on whether its custom or ladder.. there's just not going to be any point.
In Online poker you can get those pot odd's calculators, they don't make you a better player though, which is pretty obvious when you look at the sort of people who use them and their statistics. -> if used correctly they MIGHT increase the speed at which you pick up new concepts though.
If you don't like the analogy, i could create another for you, i understand it's not a 1:1 thing we're looking at, but i revert to my original question, "What are you going to do about it?" (remember, calling him a cheater won't change anything)
On July 14 2011 19:45 mdb wrote: Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
I doubt he's going to be using this at mlg.
Don't worry about it.
Every time i look at my watch it reminds me to scout.. should i remove it? :S bit of a cheat right? :S
This is a file you execute that pops a visible notification on your screen that reminds you to do something that you otherwise might have forgotten.
Please don't compare it to "looking at your watch".
MLG or ladder, it makes no difference. My point is that this can be a tool for people who want to practice their timings and need a reminder, however I sincerely think it shouldn't be used on ladder or in any other competitive scenario.
Good to know what you think =\, now what are you going to do about it?
There's really 2 options here
A) Encourage people to find ways to learn things quickly B) Shit on new idea's because you don't like them
Neither of these options really DO anything, but i'm fairly sure option A can only lead to better things. Unless your willing to find some amazing way to stop this usage based on whether its custom or ladder.. there's just not going to be any point.
In Online poker you can get those pot odd's calculators, they don't make you a better player though, which is pretty obvious when you look at the sort of people who use them and their statistics. -> if used correctly they MIGHT increase the speed at which you pick up new concepts though.
If you don't like the analogy, i could create another for you, i understand it's not a 1:1 thing we're looking at, but i revert to my original question, "What are you going to do about it?" (remember, calling him a cheater won't change anything)
What am I going to do about it? LOL. I am not going to do anything. I think you confuse me stating my opinion, which I have a right to do, to me trying to do anything but state the obvious - that it is an advantage you gain that your opponent doesn't know you have and likely won't have.
I am not "shitting on the idea", I am saying that I would encourage people not to utilize this tool in other than practice games.
On July 14 2011 19:45 mdb wrote: Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
I doubt he's going to be using this at mlg.
Don't worry about it.
Every time i look at my watch it reminds me to scout.. should i remove it? :S bit of a cheat right? :S
This is a file you execute that pops a visible notification on your screen that reminds you to do something that you otherwise might have forgotten.
Please don't compare it to "looking at your watch".
MLG or ladder, it makes no difference. My point is that this can be a tool for people who want to practice their timings and need a reminder, however I sincerely think it shouldn't be used on ladder or in any other competitive scenario.
Good to know what you think =\, now what are you going to do about it?
There's really 2 options here
A) Encourage people to find ways to learn things quickly B) Shit on new idea's because you don't like them
Neither of these options really DO anything, but i'm fairly sure option A can only lead to better things. Unless your willing to find some amazing way to stop this usage based on whether its custom or ladder.. there's just not going to be any point.
In Online poker you can get those pot odd's calculators, they don't make you a better player though, which is pretty obvious when you look at the sort of people who use them and their statistics. -> if used correctly they MIGHT increase the speed at which you pick up new concepts though.
If you don't like the analogy, i could create another for you, i understand it's not a 1:1 thing we're looking at, but i revert to my original question, "What are you going to do about it?" (remember, calling him a cheater won't change anything)
What am I going to do about it? LOL. I am not going to do anything. I think you confuse me stating my opinion, which I have a right to do, to me trying to do anything but state the obvious - that it is an advantage you gain that your opponent doesn't know you have and likely won't have.
I am not "shitting on the idea", I am saying that I would encourage people not to utilize this tool in other than practice games.
Okay. Most people (especially competitive) consider ladder to be practice games.
At least we're a step down from "LOL CHEATEURRR!" now
No but getting a thread closed to something that pops up in front of your screen at automated times would clear TL of a bad Topic.
The real way to learn is to sit there and look at the in game clock, press the hotkeys for each queen over and over, actually look at the timer on each hatchery, or just use that new feature they added into the game that alerts you when your spawn larva is at the end of the cycle. I doubt blizzard would want you to change where they position the alerts on the screen to put them directly in front of your face. They give you the tools to work with inside the game so you don't have to create batch files or download a program to do the remembering for you.
I just hate seeing this stuff on TL, competitors should use what the game has given them. If you want to do this offline that fine, but I would hope you would get banned for using it in ladder and tournament games where there is actual competition.
On July 14 2011 19:45 mdb wrote: Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
I doubt he's going to be using this at mlg.
Don't worry about it.
Every time i look at my watch it reminds me to scout.. should i remove it? :S bit of a cheat right? :S
This is a file you execute that pops a visible notification on your screen that reminds you to do something that you otherwise might have forgotten.
Please don't compare it to "looking at your watch".
MLG or ladder, it makes no difference. My point is that this can be a tool for people who want to practice their timings and need a reminder, however I sincerely think it shouldn't be used on ladder or in any other competitive scenario.
Good to know what you think =\, now what are you going to do about it?
There's really 2 options here
A) Encourage people to find ways to learn things quickly B) Shit on new idea's because you don't like them
Neither of these options really DO anything, but i'm fairly sure option A can only lead to better things. Unless your willing to find some amazing way to stop this usage based on whether its custom or ladder.. there's just not going to be any point.
In Online poker you can get those pot odd's calculators, they don't make you a better player though, which is pretty obvious when you look at the sort of people who use them and their statistics. -> if used correctly they MIGHT increase the speed at which you pick up new concepts though.
If you don't like the analogy, i could create another for you, i understand it's not a 1:1 thing we're looking at, but i revert to my original question, "What are you going to do about it?" (remember, calling him a cheater won't change anything)
What am I going to do about it? LOL. I am not going to do anything. I think you confuse me stating my opinion, which I have a right to do, to me trying to do anything but state the obvious - that it is an advantage you gain that your opponent doesn't know you have and likely won't have.
I am not "shitting on the idea", I am saying that I would encourage people not to utilize this tool in other than practice games.
Okay. Most people (especially competitive) consider ladder to be practice games.
At least we're a step down from "LOL CHEATEURRR!" now
Please quote me saying "LOL CHEATEURRR!" or anything remotely close to it.
On July 14 2011 20:08 zzdd wrote: It's funny how people call this a hack. Imagine playing against this player:
"OMG he remembered to macro. HACKER!!!"
This is just an overreaction to one of many macro helper programs already out.
Edit: Just pretend this is another person helping out, like a coach for example.
Essentially all it is tbh. (but doesn't charge you $30/hour)
And it's much better to post something potentially helpful to the community than to just post negative opinions about everything with nothing of use contributed
On July 14 2011 19:45 mdb wrote: Everything that in one or another way helps you ingame is and is not develpoed by Blizzard is 100% cheating. There is a reason why on chess tournaments the players dont bring their opening books with them.
I doubt he's going to be using this at mlg.
Don't worry about it.
Every time i look at my watch it reminds me to scout.. should i remove it? :S bit of a cheat right? :S
This is a file you execute that pops a visible notification on your screen that reminds you to do something that you otherwise might have forgotten.
Please don't compare it to "looking at your watch".
MLG or ladder, it makes no difference. My point is that this can be a tool for people who want to practice their timings and need a reminder, however I sincerely think it shouldn't be used on ladder or in any other competitive scenario.
Good to know what you think =\, now what are you going to do about it?
There's really 2 options here
A) Encourage people to find ways to learn things quickly B) Shit on new idea's because you don't like them
Neither of these options really DO anything, but i'm fairly sure option A can only lead to better things. Unless your willing to find some amazing way to stop this usage based on whether its custom or ladder.. there's just not going to be any point.
In Online poker you can get those pot odd's calculators, they don't make you a better player though, which is pretty obvious when you look at the sort of people who use them and their statistics. -> if used correctly they MIGHT increase the speed at which you pick up new concepts though.
If you don't like the analogy, i could create another for you, i understand it's not a 1:1 thing we're looking at, but i revert to my original question, "What are you going to do about it?" (remember, calling him a cheater won't change anything)
What am I going to do about it? LOL. I am not going to do anything. I think you confuse me stating my opinion, which I have a right to do, to me trying to do anything but state the obvious - that it is an advantage you gain that your opponent doesn't know you have and likely won't have.
I am not "shitting on the idea", I am saying that I would encourage people not to utilize this tool in other than practice games.
Okay. Most people (especially competitive) consider ladder to be practice games.
At least we're a step down from "LOL CHEATEURRR!" now
Please quote me saying "LOL CHEATEURRR!" or anything remotely close to it.
I was talking to the thread in general. Don't take everything personally, (i already know your not one to offer anything, so nothing is being asked of you)
We're, inclusive language. Includes the reader, sorry if that wasn't clear bro.
On July 14 2011 20:10 Demonace34 wrote: No but getting a thread closed to something that pops up in front of your screen at automated times would clear TL of a bad Topic.
The real way to learn is to sit there and look at the in game clock, press the hotkeys for each queen over and over, actually look at the timer on each hatchery, or just use that new feature they added into the game that alerts you when your spawn larva is at the end of the cycle. I doubt blizzard would want you to change where they position the alerts on the screen to put them directly in front of your face. They give you the tools to work with inside the game so you don't have to create batch files or download a program to do the remembering for you.
I just hate seeing this stuff on TL, competitors should use what the game has given them. If you want to do this offline that fine, but I would hope you would get banned for using it in ladder and tournament games where there is actual competition.
I think Blizzard should do this.
And when we talk about it, they should enable to modify all UI in game. It's cute that you can hide all panels, but wouldn't it be better for example for casters to be able to hide everythig except minimap? Why we have to see big panel with move attack hold commands etc, when good players don't use it and for caster it's completely waste of space?
Let me get this straight, this is a program with a timer that just reminds you when to build a MULE, SCV etc is has no responsivity to what is going on in the game at hand nor the players actions/key strokes (pls correct me if I'm wrong)
Surely, this would really make you seceptible to harrasment and non-standard play - if you had your plan all set with your little reminders on when to build an SCV etc what would happen when your opponent does something completely unexpected that throws you off for thrity seconds making you deviate your plan?
Then your plan and reminders will all be out of sync and rendered completely pointless if not incredibly annoying?
I don't see how this would really help you improve - there are bulid order custom games out there which have mre practice applications (though are still themselves limited) - the best you can expect from this is that you will become reliant on a reminder of when to do stuff. I would impede the development of any 'game sense' which in the long run would be a disadvantage.
Think of it learning the piano with one of those keyboards where the key lights up for the next one you should play - yeah you will be able to play fine with that script running, but you would fail to develop any 'ear' for the music or tune nor would you develop a strong muscle memory when reading music....
My verdict is:
L2P
Is this cheating...? Well, using a third party program to (dubiously) enhance your skill/play at the game in a competitive context is bad.
I think only really really bad players would consider this an option....
Pls convince me otherwise - or at least attempt to do so :D
On July 14 2011 20:28 fds wrote: if alarms would be synced with in-game production that this could be considered cheating. as this is not..
If you put the sound every 30 something seconds real world time you can sync it easily for larva injects on hatcheries. I don't think that it is going to ruin the game if people use it, but I just don't like the precedent and lines this will eventually allow people to cross. People should just play the normal way to get better instead of finding programs they can use to help get shortcuts to actual training.
On July 14 2011 20:48 Deleuze wrote: I don't see what use this is.
Let me get this straight, this is a program with a timer that just reminds you when to build a MULE, SCV etc is has no responsivity to what is going on in the game at hand nor the players actions/key strokes (pls correct me if I'm wrong)
Surely, this would really make you seceptible to harrasment and non-standard play - if you had your plan all set with your little reminders on when to build an SCV etc what would happen when your opponent does something completely unexpected that throws you off for thrity seconds making you deviate your plan?
Then your plan and reminders will all be out of sync and rendered completely pointless if not incredibly annoying?
I don't see how this would really help you improve - there are bulid order custom games out there which have mre practice applications (though are still themselves limited) - the best you can expect from this is that you will become reliant on a reminder of when to do stuff. I would impede the development of any 'game sense' which in the long run would be a disadvantage.
Think of it learning the piano with one of those keyboards where the key lights up for the next one you should play - yeah you will be able to play fine with that script running, but you would fail to develop any 'ear' for the music or tune nor would you develop a strong muscle memory when reading music....
My verdict is:
L2P
Is this cheating...? Well, using a third party program to (dubiously) enhance your skill/play at the game in a competitive context is bad.
I think only really really bad players would consider this an option....
Pls convince me otherwise - or at least attempt to do so :D
Wrong on lot's of counts. Building SCV's is a fixed pattern, every 12 real (17 game) seconds, it doesn't matter what your game plan is, or if your being harassed, you still need to do those things.
You do not "fail to develop" a musical ear because you have some form of extra visual aid, that's just nonsense. timings can take a very long time to internalise, external timers massively speed up the time in which these can develop for an awful lot of people. Think metronomes.
You practice with one, and when it gets taken away you dont suddenly forget what a hand is for, or what a fret actually is. Same deal here, you increase the speed at which you learn a pattern, by having it externally reinforced. Then you take it away for competition time, and the timer remains with you, ingrained.
Also it's not a 3rd party program as it doesn't interact in any way with starcraft, it's an independent program.
My verdict?
He is Learning to play, in a potentially more efficient manner than most of the posters who just say "quit your job and ladder constantly or you wont improve"
wow you are obvious smart , dont be such an idiot , stop trying to make tools to make you good, and just get good, by putting that brainpower towards actually learning to play, not to making things that tell ppl how/when/what to play.. thats just a stupid brainless tool .. i mean cmon.. sc2 overlay . really?
Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible.
On July 14 2011 22:00 zergrushkekeke wrote:
Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have.
On July 14 2011 22:17 ZeromuS wrote: Personally, I think its cheating.
Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible.
Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have.
So if he changed the color or made it a beeper it would be okay? What if he is deaf? can't use the beeper.. You think it would be okay if he had it on a second monitor?
Well, if you place such high priority on just making scvs, then you should probably start playing more so you can recognize all those scenarios where making them is detrimental. It's way easier to just cycle through your buildings to check whether they are building stuff instead of getting your train of thought interrupted specifically to make workers.
On July 14 2011 22:24 Zaphid wrote: Well, if you place such high priority on just making scvs, then you should probably start playing more so you can recognize all those scenarios where making them is detrimental. It's way easier to just cycle through your buildings to check whether they are building stuff instead of getting your train of thought interrupted specifically to make workers.
and if he starts playing more WITH this timer, he potentially improves quicker than without. and it's great for him.
On July 14 2011 22:17 ZeromuS wrote: Personally, I think its cheating.
Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible.
On July 14 2011 22:00 zergrushkekeke wrote:
Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have.
So if he changed the color or made it a beeper it would be okay? What if he is deaf? can't use the beeper.. You think it would be okay if he had it on a second monitor?
Can I ask one question? Why are you responding to every single thread post that doesnt agree with you when you aren't the OP and are really just trying to incite some sort of forum fight?
We have differing opinions, cool you don't need to post every other post in this thread hitting F5 just to prove your point and pick a fight with everyone. Let it be, its not a discussion anymore its you just throwing out antagonistic responses to what almost everyone so far in the thread has had to say.
On July 14 2011 20:48 Deleuze wrote: I don't see what use this is.
Let me get this straight, this is a program with a timer that just reminds you when to build a MULE, SCV etc is has no responsivity to what is going on in the game at hand nor the players actions/key strokes (pls correct me if I'm wrong)
Surely, this would really make you seceptible to harrasment and non-standard play - if you had your plan all set with your little reminders on when to build an SCV etc what would happen when your opponent does something completely unexpected that throws you off for thrity seconds making you deviate your plan?
Then your plan and reminders will all be out of sync and rendered completely pointless if not incredibly annoying?
I don't see how this would really help you improve - there are bulid order custom games out there which have mre practice applications (though are still themselves limited) - the best you can expect from this is that you will become reliant on a reminder of when to do stuff. I would impede the development of any 'game sense' which in the long run would be a disadvantage.
Think of it learning the piano with one of those keyboards where the key lights up for the next one you should play - yeah you will be able to play fine with that script running, but you would fail to develop any 'ear' for the music or tune nor would you develop a strong muscle memory when reading music....
My verdict is:
L2P
Is this cheating...? Well, using a third party program to (dubiously) enhance your skill/play at the game in a competitive context is bad.
I think only really really bad players would consider this an option....
Pls convince me otherwise - or at least attempt to do so :D
Wrong on lot's of counts. Building SCV's is a fixed pattern, every 12 real (17 game) seconds, it doesn't matter what your game plan is, or if your being harassed, you still need to do those things.
You do not "fail to develop" a musical ear because you have some form of extra visual aid, that's just nonsense. timings can take a very long time to internalise, external timers massively speed up the time in which these can develop for an awful lot of people. Think metronomes.
You practice with one, and when it gets taken away you dont suddenly forget what a hand is for, or what a fret actually is. Same deal here, you increase the speed at which you learn a pattern, by having it externally reinforced. Then you take it away for competition time, and the timer remains with you, ingrained.
Also it's not a 3rd party program as it doesn't interact in any way with starcraft, it's an independent program.
My verdict?
He is Learning to play, in a potentially more efficient manner than most of the posters who just say "quit your job and ladder constantly or you wont improve"
Hi Eleaven,
Yeah I stand corrected, I think I can accept that. Thanks for replying.
I guess my overall concern was that this would become a crutch, which whoever was using it would become dependant on - if it was taken away the users skill would drop.
I think what is most controversial about this is the visual ascept - if someone recorded an MP3 of them saying 'build SCV' every 12 seconds which they played in itunes during the game then I doubt there'll be as much concern (in fact - didn't someone actually do this?)
I wouldn't be happy with someone using this on ladder - but it is undetectable so I guess this is a moot point.
I am still a little perturbed by what Demonace34 suggests about it setting a precedent for more advanced forms of 'assistance'.
On reflection I guess this does have a place in practice - but there are still issues with possible dependancy, use in competitive play (i.e. ladder), and precedent forming.
I'm unsure whether these issues would out weigh the community endorsing this program though.
On July 14 2011 22:17 ZeromuS wrote: Personally, I think its cheating.
Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible.
On July 14 2011 22:00 zergrushkekeke wrote:
Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have.
So if he changed the color or made it a beeper it would be okay? What if he is deaf? can't use the beeper.. You think it would be okay if he had it on a second monitor?
Can I ask one question? Why are you responding to every single thread post that doesnt agree with you when you aren't the OP and are really just trying to incite some sort of forum fight?
We have differing opinions, cool you don't need to post every other post in this thread hitting F5 just to prove your point and pick a fight with everyone. Let it be, its not a discussion anymore its you just throwing out antagonistic responses to what almost everyone so far in the thread has had to say.
It's a forum, for discussion, since most posts are the collaborative effort of 3-4 seconds of thinking I'm offering a counter point, and trying to get something more specific than "i dont like it" out of the posters You called it terrible, but reasoned that it might be okay if it wasn't on the same monitor, i'm asking why you think that's any different in reality? Maybe you don't like your opinion challenged by reason so instead decide to get personal? that's cool i can't stop you.
I'm not trying to incite a "fight" im trying to incite thought beyond "hrrrmmmmm ban!" using adjectives like "terrible" doesn't give a point more weight, give a real response, and you'll get a more considered reaction.
On July 14 2011 20:48 Deleuze wrote: I don't see what use this is.
Let me get this straight, this is a program with a timer that just reminds you when to build a MULE, SCV etc is has no responsivity to what is going on in the game at hand nor the players actions/key strokes (pls correct me if I'm wrong)
Surely, this would really make you seceptible to harrasment and non-standard play - if you had your plan all set with your little reminders on when to build an SCV etc what would happen when your opponent does something completely unexpected that throws you off for thrity seconds making you deviate your plan?
Then your plan and reminders will all be out of sync and rendered completely pointless if not incredibly annoying?
I don't see how this would really help you improve - there are bulid order custom games out there which have mre practice applications (though are still themselves limited) - the best you can expect from this is that you will become reliant on a reminder of when to do stuff. I would impede the development of any 'game sense' which in the long run would be a disadvantage.
Think of it learning the piano with one of those keyboards where the key lights up for the next one you should play - yeah you will be able to play fine with that script running, but you would fail to develop any 'ear' for the music or tune nor would you develop a strong muscle memory when reading music....
My verdict is:
L2P
Is this cheating...? Well, using a third party program to (dubiously) enhance your skill/play at the game in a competitive context is bad.
I think only really really bad players would consider this an option....
Pls convince me otherwise - or at least attempt to do so :D
Wrong on lot's of counts. Building SCV's is a fixed pattern, every 12 real (17 game) seconds, it doesn't matter what your game plan is, or if your being harassed, you still need to do those things.
You do not "fail to develop" a musical ear because you have some form of extra visual aid, that's just nonsense. timings can take a very long time to internalise, external timers massively speed up the time in which these can develop for an awful lot of people. Think metronomes.
You practice with one, and when it gets taken away you dont suddenly forget what a hand is for, or what a fret actually is. Same deal here, you increase the speed at which you learn a pattern, by having it externally reinforced. Then you take it away for competition time, and the timer remains with you, ingrained.
Also it's not a 3rd party program as it doesn't interact in any way with starcraft, it's an independent program.
My verdict?
He is Learning to play, in a potentially more efficient manner than most of the posters who just say "quit your job and ladder constantly or you wont improve"
Hi Eleaven,
Yeah I stand corrected, I think I can accept that. Thanks for replying.
I guess my overall concern was that this would become a crutch, which whoever was using it would become dependant on - if it was taken away the users skill would drop.
I think what is most controversial about this is the visual ascept - if someone recorded an MP3 of them saying 'build SCV' every 12 seconds which they played in itunes during the game then I doubt there'll be as much concern (in fact - didn't someone actually do this?)
I wouldn't be happy with someone using this on ladder - but it is undetectable so I guess this is a moot point.
I am still a little perturbed by what Demonace34 suggests about it setting a precedent for more advanced forms of 'assistance'.
On reflection I guess this does have a place in practice - but there are still issues with possible dependancy, use in competitive play (i.e. ladder), and precedent forming.
I'm unsure whether these issues would out weigh the community endorsing this program though.
Thanks :D
Appreciate the fact you read my response .
I understand your concern about the crutch, and maybe that's true, but i think it would take a lot of usage for that to become an issue, compared to the gains that can be made in an hour with it.
The first time i used a timer, like a year ago to learn Z, i was shocked how many times it would beep when i was watching a battle, and didnt have the mechanical ability or brain power to pull away. That realisation itself made me a better player, and after a few hours i felt ready to play without it, and havent looked back since.
I hope this doesn't end up as a "gateway" to things that give additional benefits like maphacking (or some other assistance) etc, and i could see how it could be viewed this way. I don't want to go against someone using this on ladder either, but there's nothing that can be done about it, and maybe facing an opponent with better macro is good for me?
Personal opinion here I think this is a TERRIBLE idea. It just helps reinforce that you need something else to help remind you about what you're supposed to do in game. I think having sticky notes on your monitor to help remind you is prefectly legit because it doesn't pop up directly in your face saying to do something on a specific timer. I think that having a stopwatch beside you that beeps every 30 seconds is a helpful tool to help but it isn't going to present its self right in front of your face saying what you need to do.
I just think all this... dependance on other programs to help you macro better in the long run is going to hurt your play more then help improve it because what happens when you're unable to do that anymore? You're not going to have any internal timings you're going to be so reliant upon something else to tell you that you're going to realize you've not improved at all, you've just became dependent upon something else. Which is really just fucking retarded.
On July 14 2011 22:17 ZeromuS wrote: Personally, I think its cheating.
Its a program outside of the game, which shows clearly in game something you need to do. Its also affecting a very basic mechanic of SC2 to make workers. to have an overlay in game tell you make worker now is cheating, its abusing the fact you can have overlays and its terrible.
On July 14 2011 22:00 zergrushkekeke wrote:
Look at this picture and tell me what is right about it? An external timer is a timer its different than in internal bright red reminder in the game itself which others don't have.
So if he changed the color or made it a beeper it would be okay? What if he is deaf? can't use the beeper.. You think it would be okay if he had it on a second monitor?
Can I ask one question? Why are you responding to every single thread post that doesnt agree with you when you aren't the OP and are really just trying to incite some sort of forum fight?
We have differing opinions, cool you don't need to post every other post in this thread hitting F5 just to prove your point and pick a fight with everyone. Let it be, its not a discussion anymore its you just throwing out antagonistic responses to what almost everyone so far in the thread has had to say.
It's a forum, for discussion, since most posts are the collaborative effort of 3-4 seconds of thinking I'm offering a counter point, and trying to get something more specific than "i dont like it" out of the posters You called it terrible, but reasoned that it might be okay if it wasn't on the same monitor, i'm asking why you think that's any different in reality? Maybe you don't like your opinion challenged by reason so instead decide to get personal? that's cool i can't stop you.
I'm not trying to incite a "fight" im trying to incite thought beyond "hrrrmmmmm ban!" using adjectives like "terrible" doesn't give a point more weight, give a real response, and you'll get a more considered reaction.
I think the problem is precisely having it in game. Its beyond being a virtual "metronome" if you will. It has moved to the realm of being a crutch, and being something blizzard did not intend to have in their game injected into their game. I do not mean injected as in through code but visually imposed.
I'm not trying to be personal, sorry if you feel that way but your counter points are really just "whats so wrong with a helper?" "Is it ok on another screen if so then whats wrong with it on the same screen? Same thing"
On July 14 2011 19:37 Handfoot wrote: I'm curious why it needs to ping 127.0.0.1.
127.0.0.1 is just your own network card. its not like its pinging some one that wants to see your ip adress in order to hack you. however i dont know why either because i havent seen the script my self.
Would people think this is ok for someone to use at MLG? If not, then it shouldn't be ok to use it on ladder. Both are competitive settings, and a lot of people put a lot of effort into rising in the ranks on Bnet. I have no problem with people doing this in unranked custom games, but using something like this in a ladder setting is clearly unintended by Blizzard and should be considered cheating.
Even though this obviously doesn't compare to maphacking, I'm pretty sure a lot of the arguments used in the thread (only doing it to help improve etc) could be used to justify that.
this program is not designed to give you a advantage. it is designed to learn more efficient. i find every one who calls this a cheat very narrow sighted no offence
"A 'hack' or 'third party' program is any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment that is used to modify, cheat, or alter Blizzard Entertainment games."
As far as I see this, it would be considered a hack. Since you use Windows (which would be the thirdparty program), in order to alter the game client (by getting a visual overlay "on top of" the game).
I won't go into the discussion of this being similar to an egg-watch or someone standing over your shoulder with a watch. Since those scenarios obviously does not alter the original client. Let's say you would have the same done on a seperate monitor, then I would say it is not considered a hack. Since you don't put the overlay on top of the "game screen", thus you don't alter the game.
I see how this sometimes would get an advantage over other players. For example, when having your screen somewhere else than your base. A normal player needs to sometimes switch view in order to check whether or not I can inject larva (I'm a Z player :D), or atleast shuffle through the hotkeys to check up on the mana of my Queens. With this overlay, I will not need to do that, thus giving me the advantage of exacly knowing when I need to go back to inject. Thus minimizing the time I won't be able to micro my units.
I don't know how Blizzard would be able to detect this, nor do I know if they exactly see this as a violation of their TOS. But the way I interpret it (my own personal opinion), it still would be considered a hack, even if it would only give a very slight advantage to the "hacker".
On July 14 2011 19:37 Handfoot wrote: I'm curious why it needs to ping 127.0.0.1.
127.0.0.1 is just your own network card. its not like its pinging some one that wants to see your ip adress in order to hack you. however i dont know why either because i havent seen the script my self.
edit: he uses it as a timer.
Yup its a timer, cant do 1 second though but its cheap and nasty and works most of the time.
On July 14 2011 23:11 Maekchu wrote: Ok, I'll just state my opinion on this issue.
Quoted from the Blizzard support website:
"A 'hack' or 'third party' program is any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment that is used to modify, cheat, or alter Blizzard Entertainment games."
As far as I see this, it would be considered a hack. Since you use Windows (which would be the thirdparty program), in order to alter the game client (by getting a visual overlay "on top of" the game).
I won't go into the discussion of this being similar to an egg-watch or someone standing over your shoulder with a watch. Since those scenarios obviously does not alter the original client. Let's say you would have the same done on a seperate monitor, then I would say it is not considered a hack. Since you don't put the overlay on top of the "game screen", thus you don't alter the game.
I see how this sometimes would get an advantage over other players. For example, when having your screen somewhere else than your base. A normal player needs to sometimes switch view in order to check whether or not I can inject larva (I'm a Z player :D), or atleast shuffle through the hotkeys to check up on the mana of my Queens. With this overlay, I will not need to do that, thus giving me the advantage of exacly knowing when I need to go back to inject. Thus minimizing the time I won't be able to micro my units.
I don't know how Blizzard would be able to detect this, nor do I know if they exactly see this as a violation of their TOS. But the way I interpret it (my own personal opinion), it still would be considered a hack, even if it would only give a very slight advantage to the "hacker".
A visual overlay is NOT altering the game client, not even a little bit.
On July 14 2011 23:23 ru.meta wrote: It's funny to see that such simple thing considered by someones as "cheat".
Actually I've made a tool with much more overlays / sounds. After first wave people finally stopped to yell "cheat".
Please, read EULA first and only then make decision.
+1 for you zergrushkekeke
Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use;
So I read through the EULA, and really it's just a matter of interpretation.
"Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use; "
With this in mind, I would definitely say you alter the "game experience".
But there will always be someone who interprets it differently. Like this guy:
On July 14 2011 23:11 Maekchu wrote: Ok, I'll just state my opinion on this issue.
Quoted from the Blizzard support website:
"A 'hack' or 'third party' program is any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment that is used to modify, cheat, or alter Blizzard Entertainment games."
As far as I see this, it would be considered a hack. Since you use Windows (which would be the thirdparty program), in order to alter the game client (by getting a visual overlay "on top of" the game).
I won't go into the discussion of this being similar to an egg-watch or someone standing over your shoulder with a watch. Since those scenarios obviously does not alter the original client. Let's say you would have the same done on a seperate monitor, then I would say it is not considered a hack. Since you don't put the overlay on top of the "game screen", thus you don't alter the game.
I see how this sometimes would get an advantage over other players. For example, when having your screen somewhere else than your base. A normal player needs to sometimes switch view in order to check whether or not I can inject larva (I'm a Z player :D), or atleast shuffle through the hotkeys to check up on the mana of my Queens. With this overlay, I will not need to do that, thus giving me the advantage of exacly knowing when I need to go back to inject. Thus minimizing the time I won't be able to micro my units.
I don't know how Blizzard would be able to detect this, nor do I know if they exactly see this as a violation of their TOS. But the way I interpret it (my own personal opinion), it still would be considered a hack, even if it would only give a very slight advantage to the "hacker".
A visual overlay is NOT altering the game client, not even a little bit.
Altering a game doesn't necessarily mean altering the "coding" of the game. With the term "experience" used in the EULA, just strengthens the idea that Blizzard might classify this as cheating.
Anyway, I just want to put a suggestion for the OP. I think it's a good idea, to maybe add that users should use this on own risk. It seems it all comes down to how you interpret what Blizzard write and people should just be aware that if Blizzard sees this as a hack and is able to detect it, they might get suspended from the game.
Ok, I've had a think about this and all things considered the best way forward would be to have this kind of functionality (and more) incorporated in to a custom map via the map editor.
The reasons I think this are:
- this will be fully transparent, i.e. whoever you play agianst will know that you are using it (this will encourage it being used as a practice tool)
- this would never leech into competitve play, which would also prevent it becoming a crutch as players would venture into ladder play away from it as well
- this will have absolutley no effect on TOS as customs created via the map editor are openly encouraged
- it's functionality could be improved massively: the timer could be rest, finely tuned to different situations, have build orders attached to it etc list is endless
I am very happy with Eleaven's point about this being a viable and justified practice tool. I also think that having this in a custom map completely dispells the equally justified issues raised by other memebers of the community.
I know jack shit about the SC2 map editor but from what I've seen creating such a functionality in a custom map would be easy peasey.
I'd urge that if anyone, zergrushkekeke or otherwise, was really interested in this as a practice tool (which is its only justifiable application) then they should create it in the map editor. Then everyone will be happy. :D
On July 14 2011 23:27 Charger wrote: A visual overlay is NOT altering the game client, not even a little bit.
No matter how you slice and dice it, this falls into a morally grey area. The spirit of the law is that you shouldn't get an unfair advantage. Let's say we could have a visual overlay that spots dropships and highlights them in red as they fly by your overlords (or highlights the blur of DTs in red). Well, technically, it's not doing anything that you couldn't see with your own eyes, but I think that clearly falls into an "unfair advantage."
That being said, I think using this program will definitely help you internalize your timings better (inject larva, mules, etc). I don't see this as a bad thing and it makes you a better player. I think the intent of the user here goes a long way. If you are using it temporarily to help you internalize your timings in matches that are not of significance, that seems fine. If you plan on using it as a permanent fixture to your SC playing in order to get a higher ladder rank, that does not seem fine.
It's like having matches. Using them to light your cigarettes is fine, setting fire to homes is not, but the matches themselves are not evil.
This is against the rules, as it is allowing an external program/script giving unfair advantage to the user. Plus over dependence on this would ruin your game.
On July 14 2011 23:38 Maekchu wrote: So I read through the EULA, and really it's just a matter of interpretation.
"Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use; "
With this in mind, I would definitely say you alter the "game experience".
But there will always be someone who interprets it differently. Like this guy:
On July 14 2011 23:11 Maekchu wrote: Ok, I'll just state my opinion on this issue.
Quoted from the Blizzard support website:
"A 'hack' or 'third party' program is any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment that is used to modify, cheat, or alter Blizzard Entertainment games."
As far as I see this, it would be considered a hack. Since you use Windows (which would be the thirdparty program), in order to alter the game client (by getting a visual overlay "on top of" the game).
I won't go into the discussion of this being similar to an egg-watch or someone standing over your shoulder with a watch. Since those scenarios obviously does not alter the original client. Let's say you would have the same done on a seperate monitor, then I would say it is not considered a hack. Since you don't put the overlay on top of the "game screen", thus you don't alter the game.
I see how this sometimes would get an advantage over other players. For example, when having your screen somewhere else than your base. A normal player needs to sometimes switch view in order to check whether or not I can inject larva (I'm a Z player :D), or atleast shuffle through the hotkeys to check up on the mana of my Queens. With this overlay, I will not need to do that, thus giving me the advantage of exacly knowing when I need to go back to inject. Thus minimizing the time I won't be able to micro my units.
I don't know how Blizzard would be able to detect this, nor do I know if they exactly see this as a violation of their TOS. But the way I interpret it (my own personal opinion), it still would be considered a hack, even if it would only give a very slight advantage to the "hacker".
A visual overlay is NOT altering the game client, not even a little bit.
Altering a game doesn't necessarily mean altering the "coding" of the game. With the term "experience" used in the EULA, just strengthens the idea that Blizzard might classify this cheat.
Anyway, I just want to put a suggestion for the OP. I think it's a good idea, to maybe add that users should use this on own risk. It seems it all comes down to how you interpret what Blizzard write and people should just be aware that if Blizzard sees this as a hack and is able to detect it, they might get suspended from the game.
Indeed it does alter the game experience which is likely against the TOS, but altering the game client is specifically talking about altering game specific code in some way - which is what I was correcting because this doesn't do that at all. I don't mind someone trying to claim its hack based on it altering the 'experience', because it probably is. But that is so vague it's still hard to say. A physical timer set to go off every x seconds is definitely altering the 'experience' as well.
However if I were using it, there is absolutely no possible legal way for Blizzard to know whether I am using this or not.
On July 14 2011 23:41 Deleuze wrote: Ok, I've had a think about this and all things considered the best way forward would be to have this kind of functionality (and more) incorporated in to a custom map via the map editor. :D
I support this from Deleuze.
If you wish this to be just a training tool. Try to incorporate it into a custom map so people will be able to train their feel of when to inject, mule, etc etc.
In this way, just as stated. There will be no issues regarding the EULA.
On July 14 2011 19:05 NicoLoco wrote: I think I would classify this as cheating, or at least enabling oneself an advantage that your similarly skilled opposition doesn't have.
Edit: I think it would be sort of OK if it popped up on a seperate monitor or on your mobile phone or something like that, but having it overlay the game is just wrong. If the game was supposed to remind you to inject and build SCVs you would have the option to do so. Some of the skill in this game comes down to being able to remember to do everything you are supposed to do.
SC2 reminds you to inject. I don't support it, but at a certain level it won't help you anymore, because there it's not so much a thing of being able to remind, it's about being able to mechanically do it.
Hold on... Where is this SC2 reminds you to inject? All I see is a larvae has spawned, which is the same as chronoboost has expired and mule has expired. Please...
On July 14 2011 23:38 Maekchu wrote: So I read through the EULA, and really it's just a matter of interpretation.
"Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use; "
With this in mind, I would definitely say you alter the "game experience".
But there will always be someone who interprets it differently. Like this guy:
On July 14 2011 23:27 Charger wrote:
On July 14 2011 23:11 Maekchu wrote: Ok, I'll just state my opinion on this issue.
Quoted from the Blizzard support website:
"A 'hack' or 'third party' program is any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment that is used to modify, cheat, or alter Blizzard Entertainment games."
As far as I see this, it would be considered a hack. Since you use Windows (which would be the thirdparty program), in order to alter the game client (by getting a visual overlay "on top of" the game).
I won't go into the discussion of this being similar to an egg-watch or someone standing over your shoulder with a watch. Since those scenarios obviously does not alter the original client. Let's say you would have the same done on a seperate monitor, then I would say it is not considered a hack. Since you don't put the overlay on top of the "game screen", thus you don't alter the game.
I see how this sometimes would get an advantage over other players. For example, when having your screen somewhere else than your base. A normal player needs to sometimes switch view in order to check whether or not I can inject larva (I'm a Z player :D), or atleast shuffle through the hotkeys to check up on the mana of my Queens. With this overlay, I will not need to do that, thus giving me the advantage of exacly knowing when I need to go back to inject. Thus minimizing the time I won't be able to micro my units.
I don't know how Blizzard would be able to detect this, nor do I know if they exactly see this as a violation of their TOS. But the way I interpret it (my own personal opinion), it still would be considered a hack, even if it would only give a very slight advantage to the "hacker".
A visual overlay is NOT altering the game client, not even a little bit.
Altering a game doesn't necessarily mean altering the "coding" of the game. With the term "experience" used in the EULA, just strengthens the idea that Blizzard might classify this cheat.
Anyway, I just want to put a suggestion for the OP. I think it's a good idea, to maybe add that users should use this on own risk. It seems it all comes down to how you interpret what Blizzard write and people should just be aware that if Blizzard sees this as a hack and is able to detect it, they might get suspended from the game.
Indeed it does alter the game experience which is likely against the TOS, but altering the game client is specifically talking about altering game specific code in some way - which is what I was correcting because this doesn't do that at all. I don't mind someone trying to claim its hack based on it altering the 'experience', because it probably is. But that is so vague it's still hard to say. A timer set to go off every x seconds is definitely altering the 'experience' as well.
However if I were using it, there is absolutely no possible legal way for Blizzard to know whether I am using this or not.
Jep, sorry. Just used the wrong words in my first post :D But glad we got that cleared.
On July 14 2011 19:05 NicoLoco wrote: I think I would classify this as cheating, or at least enabling oneself an advantage that your similarly skilled opposition doesn't have.
Edit: I think it would be sort of OK if it popped up on a seperate monitor or on your mobile phone or something like that, but having it overlay the game is just wrong. If the game was supposed to remind you to inject and build SCVs you would have the option to do so. Some of the skill in this game comes down to being able to remember to do everything you are supposed to do.
SC2 reminds you to inject. I don't support it, but at a certain level it won't help you anymore, because there it's not so much a thing of being able to remind, it's about being able to mechanically do it.
Hold on... Where is this SC2 reminds you to inject? All I see is a larvae has spawned, which is the same as chronoboost has expired and mule has expired. Please...
You can turn it on in the options. It will show as a small icon and text in the upper left corner, Just like when it tells you buildings, units or upgrades have finished.
Well, I think it's cheating, but it's such a morally gray area. Really, it's not like these guys are murdering puppies to use their blood to power their drophacks. It's a overlay that flashes over his command groups, if I read the OP properly. Time to back away with the pitchforks guys.
Though I really don't understand the people who say "What does it matter if it's cheating, Blizzard can't detect it anyway." There's a difference between "If the ref didn't see it, it didn't happen" and "If the ref didn't see it, it's morally okay."
Anytime I hear bat file I get excited. I love the idea for a trainer, buts it is rather crude. I might use this to set up a reminder for myself to look at the mini map and my food.
I don't understand all the cheat comments. This is in no way interacting with the game. It changes the game experience in the same way that playing your own music or alt+tab does. Alt+tab to look at your build order is not going to get you banned by Bliz, and neither is this.
Don't hate on the training techniques. Make better use of your time spent training use important to some of us.
On July 14 2011 23:23 ru.meta wrote: It's funny to see that such simple thing considered by someones as "cheat".
Actually I've made a tool with much more overlays / sounds. After first wave people finally stopped to yell "cheat".
Please, read EULA first and only then make decision.
+1 for you zergrushkekeke
Your tool looks much more complex and better polished, I am still a little suspicious of executables from Russia :D I am sort of interested in your source code, but studying C# sounds way too much like work for me. This method was kept simple so anyone could set it up, change the settings to whatever they wanted and hopefully learn something in the process.
Maekchu I don't think it needs a "use at own risk", its a batch file that opens an image viewer once every 12 seconds. This is no different to any application on my PC starting up.
As many people have said at higher levels this tool is not as useful, harassment and build orders that cut workers will have the timer go out of sync, but later in the game when you can afford to queue units it can be marginally helpful again.
On July 15 2011 00:04 Alejandrisha wrote: Pretty sure figuring out when to build your stuff is part of the game. Have fun using this as a crutch and getting worse at the game I guess
I rather disappointed in this comment as I respect your posts a lot. The point of a tool like this is to help build memory, not to be depended on.
On July 15 2011 00:04 Alejandrisha wrote: Pretty sure figuring out when to build your stuff is part of the game. Have fun using this as a crutch and getting worse at the game I guess
Are coaches a crutch? No? Neither is this. It's a tool. A tool like this isn't the same as a drug, you can operate just fine without it. Once you've gained the benefits of it.
On July 14 2011 23:23 ru.meta wrote: It's funny to see that such simple thing considered by someones as "cheat".
Actually I've made a tool with much more overlays / sounds. After first wave people finally stopped to yell "cheat".
Please, read EULA first and only then make decision.
+1 for you zergrushkekeke
Maekchu I don't think it needs a "use at own risk", its a batch file that opens an image viewer once every 12 seconds. This is no different to any application on my PC starting up.
It's more because there is a great deal of uncertainty whether Blizzard would classify this as a cheat or not. Going through the EULA, we came to the conclusion that it all depends on the interpretation, since it basically could be both depending on definitions of terms.
So I just figured, it might be a good idea, just to put it there. So people are aware that, if Blizzard classify this as a cheat and is able to discover its use, there might be a risk of them getting suspended from the game.
I don't bash your idea. I like the idea of a "coach" program. Some players might see it useful, but as said before, I support the idea of a custom map over this, since an overlay is a bit of a grey area. It would only be cleared up, if Blizzard would give us an official response on this issue.
On July 14 2011 23:23 ru.meta wrote: It's funny to see that such simple thing considered by someones as "cheat".
Actually I've made a tool with much more overlays / sounds. After first wave people finally stopped to yell "cheat".
Please, read EULA first and only then make decision.
+1 for you zergrushkekeke
Maekchu I don't think it needs a "use at own risk", its a batch file that opens an image viewer once every 12 seconds. This is no different to any application on my PC starting up.
It's more because there is a great deal of uncertainty whether Blizzard would classify this as a cheat or not. Going through the EULA, we came to the conclusion that it all depends on the interpretation, since it basically could be both depending on definitions of terms.
So I just figured, it might be a good idea, just to put it there. So people are aware that, if Blizzard classify this as a cheat and is able to discover its use, there might be a risk of them getting suspended from the game.
I don't bash your idea. I like the idea of a "coach" program. Some players might see it useful, but as said before, I support the idea of a custom map over this, since an overlay is a bit of a grey area. It would only be cleared up, if Blizzard would give us an official respond on this issue.
It's really outside the realms of possibility that blizzard starts banning people for having paint open whilst they play sc2 lol. Nvm that it breaks laws for them to even scan your PC for things outside of the sc2 process itself. There's much bigger issues than having paint open to remind you of things, when we've got external mapshacks that have gone undetected for the last 5-6 months T_T. -> these could be being used in online cash tournaments every day. And if the past + human nature is anything to go by, we're definitely rooting for some cheaters every now and then.
I suppose I am just old-fashioned then I guess having it on for a new player playing vs AI to help get the feel for how long scvs take to make (and queens/nexi to generate x energy) etc. would be beneficial. Usually I'm spamming through all my production facilities so this seems really weird and superfluous to me but I guess for a newer player it could be good.
Perhaps once people start training with it we can get some feedback!
On July 15 2011 00:37 Alejandrisha wrote: Usually I'm spamming through all my production facilities so this seems really weird and superfluous to me but I guess for a newer player it could be good.
Perhaps once people start training with it we can get some feedback!
I do the same, and have a decent feel for the timings of units and buildings. However my minimap checking habit easily falls apart if I'm not entirely comfortable, and I look forward to trying this out for a reminder.
I thought the overlays such as raidcall and steam interacted in a different way to this overlay but I am not 100 % sure of that so a'use at own risk' has been added. I used it on a ladder game (which I lost to a protoss with mad feedbacks and storms) so if i get ban hammered I will let you know.
On July 15 2011 00:52 zergrushkekeke wrote: I thought the overlays such as raidcall and steam interacted in a different way to this overlay but I am not 100 % sure of that so a'use at own risk' has been added. I used it on a ladder game (which I lost to a protoss with mad feedbacks and storms) so if i get ban hammered I will let you know.
Raidcall got a number of people banned because it affected how the game's rendering process worked... It actually modified the game in a small way, and THAT is what caused the bans.
A regular overlay like this won't get you banned and is completely risk-free. It is a bit of a crutch, in my opinion. If it helps you improve your worker production, great, though.
People saying this is risky and can get you banned are ignorant to how Raidcall worked. Please read up on this before throwing out your uninformed opinion...
I don't think I'd want to use this problem based completely on the fact that you are reacting to something not normally present in the game. The worker built notification on the left side of the screen or the sound of "SCV ready" are better things to base your mechanical reactions off of, IMO.
Still, great work making a simple tool that works for you.
I wouldn't agree if someone was going to be using this on ladder or in a tournament, but in custom games where there is NOTHING on the line (read ladder is not nothing, it has points) such as a custom, I think it is a really nice way to help build mechanics quickly as you can start to predict and internalize timings.
Additional License Limitations. The license granted to you in Section 1 above is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the “License Limitations”). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard’s copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use;
On July 15 2011 07:54 holycrapitsTony wrote: This is practically automation, so it's classified as a cheating tool.
Wouldn't it be almost a cheating tool if its practically automation.
I agree that the in game prompts should be used, but this is just a more obvious thing to react to, as there is a lot of stuff going on and when your dudes are shooting stuff it is hard to remember to macro. Also by changing the script a bit you could have it remind you to do stuff like when to build pylons, what time to think about expanding or attacking.
It is clearly meant to give you an advantage. It may not modify the game itself, but neither does an autohotkey larva inject script and you probably wouldn't allow that. That said, I don't see any way for Blizzard to detect it, so...
Additional License Limitations. The license granted to you in Section 1 above is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the “License Limitations”). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard’s copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use;
/thread It changes the game experiance, therefor it is against the rules.
On July 15 2011 09:18 Ridiculisk wrote: I pretty sure with all the flak flying round atm about Raidcall overlays that Blizz would class this as a hack...
There's no way you can't classify this under the same categories as map hacking in terms of giving unfair advantages.
At the same time, I think people are gravely overstating how useful this tool is. If you're in Diamond or higher, it's highly unlikely this tool will actually give you a significant advantage over your opponents. If you're a Bronze level player, maybe it will help you crush your friends.
I am still not 100 % sure about how raidcall works, and how blizzard could monitor what programs are running, or displayed on top of theirs. On one hand any method that would capture all the applications running on your PC seems too intrusive for blizzard, and I don't know of a way to tell what application is running on top (is it detectable if you join a game and alt tab out). On the other hand why would raidcall modify any of starcraft 2s files or inject information, or change the way it renders. I would still say the risk of being banned for running this script would be about the same risk a caster streaming live has if they put their name overlay up.
More on the development, as discussed I have a Shortcut key to start the timer, and plan to add one to kill the timer using the following in another batch script.
taskkill /IM i_view32.exe taskkill /IM cmd.exe
I have the start script bound to ctrl+ alt+ z and plan to have the kill script bound to ctrl + alt +x if its free.
I might add a yellow E graphic to go off on standard MULE timing, such as x seconds from the start of the game (assuming a 12 rax, fast OC) and then every 62 or however many seconds.
I haven't played zerg in S2 much but I might set one up for injects, I use the backspace rebound to ~ key, but since all my hatches are on 5 and all my queens are on 6 there is no visual queue of when next to inject, if you have 1 unit or 1 queen alone in a control group you can see the energy or larva status bar.
I might also make one to remind me to look at the food and mini map every 20 seconds or so by quickly flashing up a graphic there to catch my attention.
i have a feeling warden would recognize this as a maphack because it behaves in a similar fashion, kinda like how a lot of the raidcall users got banned because of its in game overlays.
On July 15 2011 10:28 Keldrath wrote: i have a feeling warden would recognize this as a maphack because it behaves in a similar fashion, kinda like how a lot of the raidcall users got banned because of its in game overlays.
I'm reading up a bit on warden and it is still ambiguous if it reports the other applications running while sc2 is, and I guess that's the way blizzard would like to keep it. My belief is that the program itself would be white listed in the same way steam is possibly, they could maybe see that it starts and stops more often but only if they are constantly reporting what you are doing, or logging on events.
Well, it does give you an unfair advantage over someone not using it.(even if ladder means practice to you doesn´t mean that you should get an unfair advantage over the other person), but its no different from people coaching you which many people don´t seem to have any problem with that.
And mechanically lesser players will still have problems with this because they can´t really spare the APM to do everything effectively(scouting, harrassing, watching the minimap etc etc.)
I kinda don´t care too much if people decide to use it,eventually they will internalize the timmings anyways, but of course this can damage the integrity of online tourneys(not much, but imagine if a guy was winning a bunch of online tourneys because his mechanics were beastly and then we find out he was using a helper like this )
I don´t really care too much but lets not deny that this gives you an advantage that your opponent will not have in that area(macro)
The hysteria and outrage over this is as hilarious as it was predictable.
On topic: Grats OP. This is cool and useful. I don't consider it a hack in the least. I don't think I'd use it personally because I'd be too afraid I'd let it become a crutch and not a learning aid, but still cool work.
honestly i wouldn't use this, and i wouldn't care if my opponent does because frankly my probe production is pretty good, i can see this being a viable training tool at lower levels but i really don't see this mattering at high levels because frankly there is A LOT of worker cutting for various strats... use at your own risk i thi nk...
On July 14 2011 19:37 Eleaven wrote: Gotta admit i hate all these people who talk about "hacks" etc for things that DO NOT interact in any way with starcraft.
This is a fucking timer. A timer that displays an image.
Whether its on monitor 1 or 2 makes absolutely no difference. It's a learning aid at best, and a mildly useless crutch at worst. Don't worry about it. This won't really give anyone competitive an advantage. by masters remembering SCV's should be the least of your worries.
This is absolutely no different from having a coach watch you play and say "make an scv dawwg"
Stop spewing shit basically.
You don't have to agree with it "morally" but to say "oh this is a hack and shud be ban" etc is just retarded.
Funny you post this and the posts that were before you never said anything about hacking. They said that they felt like it wasin a way cheating but nothing to do with the actual word "hack"
maybe you should learn to read before going on a rampage?
On July 14 2011 19:08 BAFz0r wrote: Nice Idea, though as NicoLoco already mentioned, i see this as a hack, and it wont be allowed at a tournament, so id say its a pretty bad idea, learn the timings the hardway, play enough and they will come natural to you. But nice idea though
And why are you studying the first page? Oh wait my OP is pretty awesome, so I can understand it now.
I am thinking for mini map reminders I should use big arrows with transparent corners, or if the gif transparency doesn't carry over (which I don't think it does) I could just outline the minimap with 4 instances of the image viewer.I need to find some software for cursor position as the demo I made I just sort of played with the numbers until it fit.
Seems a lot like training wheels to me. I don't see anything wrong with it personally. I don't see this helping me as Zerg, except maybe for injects. I think it is useful to build up muscle memory. For the people talking about having it in a custom game: that is nice and all, but you rarely go up against someone around your skill level in customs and they take longer to "fill". Also it would only be available in that one custom map starting at the bottom of the list.
when I played a little bit of BW waiting for this to come out I often played with the map on my second monitor since we didn't have minimap info like in sc2.
and people use timers and stuff all the time.
I wouldn't want it because it seems like training wheels but it doesn't seem all that bad to me. like someone else said, it's like having your build order in front of you or, I don't know, paying someone to tell you to make scvs every 12 seconds or whatever it is.
in a tournament with money? no I don't think it'd be allowed. beyond that it's not worth getting up in arms about. just a tool that does a job that hopefully you can eventually do yourself.
On July 15 2011 10:22 zergrushkekeke wrote: I am still not 100 % sure about how raidcall works, and how blizzard could monitor what programs are running, or displayed on top of theirs. ...
Check warden description. Raidcall modifies DirectX output and that caused ban trigger. You script does it with windows and it's OK.
Yea the raidcall thread talks about how that program uses directX hooks, and changes the way that sc2 renders things (could make cloaked units show up bright red, or could pop up a speaker symbol if someone is talking to you on chat).
Just read your other post and it makes sense to me now, I forgot about people that don't run full screen windowed mode.
Additional License Limitations. The license granted to you in Section 1 above is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the “License Limitations”). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard’s copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
Use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game experience, including without limitation, mods that violate the terms of this License Agreement or the Terms of Use;
+ stupid meme
User was warned for this post
You said "this will get you banned." You then posted the exact sentence I referenced earlier when stating the TOS can be up to interpretation and it could be against the TOS. HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever.
To me that is a hack and nothing else. The sad thing is that this thread is still open while it clearly even has an instruction how to use the hack. Good job.
On July 16 2011 00:08 iNfeRnaL wrote: To me that is a hack and nothing else. The sad thing is that this thread is still open while it clearly even has an instruction how to use the hack. Good job.
About as much of a hack as timer on my phone set to go off every x seconds reminding me to do something.
The fucking timer on your phone is a distraction and NOT on your screen. You might certainly even lose focus instead of gaining it if it is on your phone. And nope, the timer wouldn't be a hack because it is NOT IN THE FUCKING GAME. Why do I even argue with an idiot that tries to defend a cheater? Waste of time...
On July 16 2011 00:12 iNfeRnaL wrote: The fucking timer on your phone is a distraction and NOT on your screen. You might certainly even lose focus instead of gaining it if it is on your phone. And nope, the timer wouldn't be a hack because it is NOT IN THE FUCKING GAME. Why do I even argue with an idiot that tries to defend a cheater? Waste of time...
This is not in the game either. Could people calling this a hack actually try and understand what this does? If you don't understand something, asking is a valid option; screaming wrong things is not.
On July 16 2011 00:12 iNfeRnaL wrote: The fucking timer on your phone is a distraction and NOT on your screen. You might certainly even lose focus instead of gaining it if it is on your phone. And nope, the timer wouldn't be a hack because it is NOT IN THE FUCKING GAME. Why do I even argue with an idiot that tries to defend a cheater? Waste of time...
This isn't IN THE FUCKING GAME either. It's a time based image that pop up ON TOP OF your starcraft 2 screen. There, it's a timer that uses an image as the 'trigger' instead of noise like a typical timer. So you think this is ok if on my second monitor I made it so every x seconds an image popped up to remind me to do something would be ok? Just as long as it's not on my SC2 monitor? LOL....
On July 16 2011 00:12 iNfeRnaL wrote: The fucking timer on your phone is a distraction and NOT on your screen. You might certainly even lose focus instead of gaining it if it is on your phone. And nope, the timer wouldn't be a hack because it is NOT IN THE FUCKING GAME. Why do I even argue with an idiot that tries to defend a cheater? Waste of time...
This isn't IN THE FUCKING GAME either. It's a time based image that pop up ON TOP OF your starcraft 2 screen. There, it's a timer that uses an image as the 'trigger' instead of noise like a typical timer. So you think this is ok if on my second monitor I made it so every x seconds an image popped up to remind me to do something would be ok? Just as long as it's not on my SC2 monitor? LOL....
Why would someone use this? They would use it to help them perform better at SC2. They do this because they know that it will help them. People make build order and SCV production mistakes all the time. Being able to keep up with everything going on at the same time is a part of the game, and someone would hope to make that easier by using this.
This is 3rd party and aims to help someone perform better in SC2 by providing them a way to not forget to build things.
On July 16 2011 00:12 iNfeRnaL wrote: The fucking timer on your phone is a distraction and NOT on your screen. You might certainly even lose focus instead of gaining it if it is on your phone. And nope, the timer wouldn't be a hack because it is NOT IN THE FUCKING GAME. Why do I even argue with an idiot that tries to defend a cheater? Waste of time...
This isn't IN THE FUCKING GAME either. It's a time based image that pop up ON TOP OF your starcraft 2 screen. There, it's a timer that uses an image as the 'trigger' instead of noise like a typical timer. So you think this is ok if on my second monitor I made it so every x seconds an image popped up to remind me to do something would be ok? Just as long as it's not on my SC2 monitor? LOL....
Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating"..
baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about?
Gogogo!
Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool.
On July 16 2011 00:12 iNfeRnaL wrote: The fucking timer on your phone is a distraction and NOT on your screen. You might certainly even lose focus instead of gaining it if it is on your phone. And nope, the timer wouldn't be a hack because it is NOT IN THE FUCKING GAME. Why do I even argue with an idiot that tries to defend a cheater? Waste of time...
This isn't IN THE FUCKING GAME either. It's a time based image that pop up ON TOP OF your starcraft 2 screen. There, it's a timer that uses an image as the 'trigger' instead of noise like a typical timer. So you think this is ok if on my second monitor I made it so every x seconds an image popped up to remind me to do something would be ok? Just as long as it's not on my SC2 monitor? LOL....
Why would someone use this? They would use it to help them perform better at SC2. They do this because they know that it will help them. People make build order and SCV production mistakes all the time. Being able to keep up with everything going on at the same time is a part of the game, and someone would hope to make that easier by using this.
This is 3rd party and aims to help someone perform better in SC2 by providing them a way to not forget to build things.
I'm not arguing against that at all, in fact I have been agreeing with people who have this belief. It does change the experience of the game, which is against the TOS. My only argument in this thread has been defending it from idiots who compare this to something like a maphack or other actual hacks that can be detected and can get someone banned. It is an image on a computer screen popping up every x seconds and is far from a hack.
I think this could be a really amazing training tool for lower level players and I would hate for people to scare off some of the lower league players who might want to train with this because people who have no idea how computers actually work tell them they will get banned.
You and I probably share a lot of the same opinions on the morality of the subject but come on, it's not a hack just like setting an audio alarm isn't a hack and the idiots who cry for bans have no idea what they are talking about.
the issue is that there are other things that are considered 'cheating' by your standards that people do all the time
like writing down build orders.
personally I don't think it comes close to something like map hacking, but I guess some people just look at it all differently. I'm not really scared of people remembering to build scvs or getting their build orders right.
On July 16 2011 00:12 iNfeRnaL wrote: The fucking timer on your phone is a distraction and NOT on your screen. You might certainly even lose focus instead of gaining it if it is on your phone. And nope, the timer wouldn't be a hack because it is NOT IN THE FUCKING GAME. Why do I even argue with an idiot that tries to defend a cheater? Waste of time...
This isn't IN THE FUCKING GAME either. It's a time based image that pop up ON TOP OF your starcraft 2 screen. There, it's a timer that uses an image as the 'trigger' instead of noise like a typical timer. So you think this is ok if on my second monitor I made it so every x seconds an image popped up to remind me to do something would be ok? Just as long as it's not on my SC2 monitor? LOL....
Why would someone use this? They would use it to help them perform better at SC2. They do this because they know that it will help them. People make build order and SCV production mistakes all the time. Being able to keep up with everything going on at the same time is a part of the game, and someone would hope to make that easier by using this.
This is 3rd party and aims to help someone perform better in SC2 by providing them a way to not forget to build things.
I'm not arguing against that at all, in fact I have been agreeing with people who have this belief. It does change the experience of the game, which is against the TOS. My only argument in this thread has been defending it from idiots who compare this to something like a maphack or other actual hacks that can be detected and can get someone banned. It is an image on a computer screen popping up every x seconds and is far from a hack.
I think this could be a really amazing training tool for lower level players and I would hate for people to scare off some of the lower league players who might want to train with this because people who have no idea how computers actually work tell them they will get banned.
You and I probably share a lot of the same opinions on the morality of the subject but come on, it's not a hack just like setting an audio alarm isn't a hack and the idiots who cry for bans have no idea what they are talking about.
Echoes my sentiments too. In a "perfect world" Ladder environment things like this would never be used. But at the same time, if the overall competitive level of the player base can increase faster due to more efficient learning? I'm all for that!
In a time where we have maphackers going unbanned for months on end, and even drophacks hitting the ladder multiple times per year.. a simple image opening training tool shouldn't really cause any backlash. If 10 players use this and it helps them increase in skill, that's a win for the community.
On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote: Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating"..
baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about?
Gogogo!
Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool.
We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent?
Edit: ROFL, are you REALLY that fucking stupid?
If 10 players use this and it helps them increase in skill, that's a win for the community.
=> If 10 players used a maphack and it helped them to increase in skill that was a total win for the community as well by your book. G T F O .
On July 16 2011 00:29 Vari wrote: the issue is that there are other things that are considered 'cheating' by your standards that people do all the time
like writing down build orders.
personally I don't think it comes close to something like map hacking, but I guess some people just look at it all differently. I'm not really scared of people remembering to build scvs or getting their build orders right.
Yes thank you, I'm glad you brought this up. Where does the line get drawn? What about a post it with my BO next to my screen or opened up on my 2nd monitor? It certainly changes the 'experience' and gives an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't have his BO written down and readily available to follow. The same goes for audible alarms or any other training tool. Or what about a friend who is in GM sitting next to you telling what to do every second of the game? That is probably cheating as well.
My whole point was that you can't police stuff like this, it's just not possible. Take it for what it actually is - a good training tool like all of the others out there that could be considered 'cheating'.
On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote: HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever.
This is what you agreed to when you installed the game (maybe you should actually start reading this stuff before you lash out at someone):
Consent to Monitor.
When running, the game may monitor your computer's random access memory (ram) for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with the game.
Blizzard is known to use OS API's to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer.
On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote: Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating"..
baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about?
Gogogo!
Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool.
We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent?
If 10 players use this and it helps them increase in skill, that's a win for the community.
=> If 10 players used a maphack and it helped them to increase in skill that was a total win for the community as well by your book. G T F O .
Don't try to be a twat, it doesn't look good on you.. This doesn't break the ToS. If 10 people used maphacks that would be a loss. Don't put words into my mouth, enough useless drivel is coming out of your own.
You can take things for what they are: unenforceable training tools OR you can carry on being bitter that people are trying to get better, in more efficient ways than you did. Next you'll tell me that i should feel back for helping out one of my friends irl whilst he was laddering.
On July 14 2011 18:23 zergrushkekeke wrote: What I have put together some batch files that will use irfanview to repeatedly bring up an overlay on top of the control groups visible area for a few seconds. There are methods out there to remind players to keep up with macro activities like mule, inject, build workers, http://injectlarvae.com/ is an example, but this method seems new and didn't come up when I searched for it. I don't think this breaks the TOS, and even if it did I don't know how blizzard could monitor it.
Specifics My setup brings up an "S" over the top of control group 5 every 12 seconds or so, to remind me to build SCVs, 5 being my command center control group and S being for build SCV. It would be pretty easy to modify the image, timing and position for mules, crono boosts, injects, or whatever you want.
The files are simple and should be pretty understandable, but also they are only going to look right if you have the same resolution as me (or fiddle some numbers), I am guessing you should also run Windowed-Fullscreen. I should mention this will probably only work on XP out of the box, some tweaking would have to be done for vista win7 and mac.
How to do it 1. Install irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ set it to be always on top (options, tick always on top)
2. Either unzip the file (that I'm going to upload somewhere eventually) to C:/_SC2 or go to the following "set it up from scratch" section
3. Run the Tick.bat
You can also make a shortcut of the batch file (has to be on the desktop for XP) and give it a shortcut key combination to start it at the start of the game, I don't know a good way to close it besides just alt tabbing.
set it up from scratch 1. Make a folder! Name: C:\_SC2
2. Make a .BMP Name: scv.bmp 44x18 pixels with an "s" and some amount of artistic design
3. Make batch file 1 Name: MAKEIMG.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rem be in the right folder, standard install c: cd C:\Program Files\IrfanView
rem create in pos x, y i_view32.exe c:\_sc2\scv.bmp /pos (528,687) /hide=15 /resample ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Make batch file 2 Name: TICK.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: cd C:\_SC2 :start rem - Start up the process again. rem FLASH FOR TWO SECONDS, TWICE link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe ping 127.0.0.1 -n 1 link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe rem CHANGE THIS NUMBER (-n x) FOR THE DELAY ping 127.0.0.1 -n 11 goto:start ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.Make a link Name: link Target: C:\_SC2\MAKEIMG.BAT Start in: C:\_sc2
people like you disgust me. trying to gain advantages over others just because you dont have the brains to do something. why not try creating something thats a piece of the actual game like a custom game to help people with their macro?
HE disgusts you because he found a way to help him learn his macro?
Your the piece of shit here, judging people for doing things differently. "oh but it's okay ifg its an alarm that plays a beep?" (someone else said)
mmk, suppose he's deaf? whether or not he is isnt relevant.
Whilst he's microing his army, it's not his memory failing him, it's his limited mechanical ability failing him. This won't make him better or give him some crazy advantage. IT might solidfy timings in him much like a metronome, just visual.
Calm down, let people learn how they want to learn.. it doesn't break any rules. more practically, even if it did break rules, it's not enforceable.
oh? so where do you draw the line? i would call anybody that uses a 3rd party program to help them play the game to be a cheater...
people should not have their ability's bumped up simply because they are bad at something. its like in exams, you get people who are absolutely terrible at them, but does that make it right to give them hints/spoilers to questions on the exam?
just play the game to the best of your ability and nobody will look down on you.
On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote: HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever.
This is what you agreed to when you installed the game (maybe you should actually start reading this stuff before you lash out at someone):
When running, the game may monitor your computer's random access memory (ram) for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with the game.
Blizzard is known to use OS API's to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer.
However, Windows and an image viewer are not unauthorized 3rd party programs.
On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote: Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating"..
baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about?
Gogogo!
Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool.
We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent?
Edit: ROFL, are you REALLY that fucking stupid?
If 10 players use this and it helps them increase in skill, that's a win for the community.
=> If 10 players used a maphack and it helped them to increase in skill that was a total win for the community as well by your book. G T F O .
Don't try to be a twat, it doesn't look good on you.. This doesn't break the ToS. If 10 people used maphacks that would be a loss. Don't put words into my mouth, enough useless drivel is coming out of your own.
Oh so maphacking is completely wrong but this is right? That's like saying hey - if you punch somebody that's alright except you actually punched him so hard that his face is bleeding. You realize the fact that you can be reminded about EVERYTHING with this tool right, not just scv's? Pylons, gateway timings, EVERYTHING, you can even set an alarm clock up that tells you to gear up for an specific attack right now, to tell you "now baneling allin would happen if so" and whatnot, you really want to tell me this isn't nearly as bad as a maphack? Do you think ANY offline tournament would E V E R tolerate this if there's countless stuff on the progamers screen popping up that he could also memorize by practicing more? REALLY? I am sorry for putting words into your mouth but maybe you should think twice before posting something that OBVIOUSLY will be interpreted the way I did.
On July 14 2011 18:23 zergrushkekeke wrote: What I have put together some batch files that will use irfanview to repeatedly bring up an overlay on top of the control groups visible area for a few seconds. There are methods out there to remind players to keep up with macro activities like mule, inject, build workers, http://injectlarvae.com/ is an example, but this method seems new and didn't come up when I searched for it. I don't think this breaks the TOS, and even if it did I don't know how blizzard could monitor it.
Specifics My setup brings up an "S" over the top of control group 5 every 12 seconds or so, to remind me to build SCVs, 5 being my command center control group and S being for build SCV. It would be pretty easy to modify the image, timing and position for mules, crono boosts, injects, or whatever you want.
The files are simple and should be pretty understandable, but also they are only going to look right if you have the same resolution as me (or fiddle some numbers), I am guessing you should also run Windowed-Fullscreen. I should mention this will probably only work on XP out of the box, some tweaking would have to be done for vista win7 and mac.
How to do it 1. Install irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ set it to be always on top (options, tick always on top)
2. Either unzip the file (that I'm going to upload somewhere eventually) to C:/_SC2 or go to the following "set it up from scratch" section
3. Run the Tick.bat
You can also make a shortcut of the batch file (has to be on the desktop for XP) and give it a shortcut key combination to start it at the start of the game, I don't know a good way to close it besides just alt tabbing.
set it up from scratch 1. Make a folder! Name: C:\_SC2
2. Make a .BMP Name: scv.bmp 44x18 pixels with an "s" and some amount of artistic design
3. Make batch file 1 Name: MAKEIMG.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rem be in the right folder, standard install c: cd C:\Program Files\IrfanView
rem create in pos x, y i_view32.exe c:\_sc2\scv.bmp /pos (528,687) /hide=15 /resample ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Make batch file 2 Name: TICK.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: cd C:\_SC2 :start rem - Start up the process again. rem FLASH FOR TWO SECONDS, TWICE link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe ping 127.0.0.1 -n 1 link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe rem CHANGE THIS NUMBER (-n x) FOR THE DELAY ping 127.0.0.1 -n 11 goto:start ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.Make a link Name: link Target: C:\_SC2\MAKEIMG.BAT Start in: C:\_sc2
people like you disgust me. trying to gain advantages over others just because you dont have the brains to do something. why not try creating something thats a piece of the actual game like a custom game to help people with their macro?
HE disgusts you because he found a way to help him learn his macro?
Your the piece of shit here, judging people for doing things differently. "oh but it's okay ifg its an alarm that plays a beep?" (someone else said)
mmk, suppose he's deaf? whether or not he is isnt relevant.
Whilst he's microing his army, it's not his memory failing him, it's his limited mechanical ability failing him. This won't make him better or give him some crazy advantage. IT might solidfy timings in him much like a metronome, just visual.
Calm down, let people learn how they want to learn.. it doesn't break any rules. more practically, even if it did break rules, it's not enforceable.
oh? so where do you draw the line? i would call anybody that uses a 3rd party program to help them play the game to be a cheater...
people should not have their ability's bumped up simply because they are bad at something. its like in exams, you get people who are absolutely terrible at them, but does that make it right to give them hints/spoilers to questions on the exam?
just play the game to the best of your ability and nobody will look down on you.
independent != 3rd party.
Your definition of cheater does not fit anybody who uses something like this, as it is by definition, not 3rd party. It's completely isolated. I'm trying hard to understand why people are deciding that others "should not" find ways to help improve quickly, seems like an odd viewpoint
On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote: Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating"..
baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about?
Gogogo!
Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool.
We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent?
Only if you also call day[9] videos a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent. Sure its not running at the same time as the game but it is a slippery slope towards using every single hack you can get away with!
On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote: Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating"..
baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about?
Gogogo!
Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool.
We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent?
Edit: ROFL, are you REALLY that fucking stupid?
If 10 players use this and it helps them increase in skill, that's a win for the community.
=> If 10 players used a maphack and it helped them to increase in skill that was a total win for the community as well by your book. G T F O .
Don't try to be a twat, it doesn't look good on you.. This doesn't break the ToS. If 10 people used maphacks that would be a loss. Don't put words into my mouth, enough useless drivel is coming out of your own.
Oh so maphacking is completely wrong but this is right? That's like saying hey - if you punch somebody that's alright except you actually punched him so hard that his face is bleeding. You realize the fact that you can be reminded about EVERYTHING with this tool right, not just scv's? Pylons, gateway timings, EVERYTHING, you can even set an alarm clock up that tells you to gear up for an specific attack right now, to tell you "now baneling allin would happen if so" and whatnot, you really want to tell me this isn't nearly as bad as a maphack? Do you think ANY offline tournament would E V E R tolerate this if there's countless stuff on the progamers screen popping up that he could also memorize by practicing more? REALLY? I am sorry for putting words into your mouth but maybe you should think twice before posting something that OBVIOUSLY will be interpreted the way I did.
Your being so ridiculous. Your comparing one guy sat at home using timers to help him learn things, to an offline competition? You do realise that training is more often than not assisted by coaches, or in athletics by things like heart monitors, various on-the-fly measurements of hydration/sweat.
This is NOT a competitive tool. It's specifically designed to be used when practicing at home. He isn't going to win any tournaments because a jpg is reminding him to build SCV's. At the competitive level, that sort of thing is already ingrained.
Your just angry at the world cos things arent as hard as they were for you.
On July 15 2011 10:22 zergrushkekeke wrote: taskkill /IM i_view32.exe taskkill /IM cmd.exe
I have the start script bound to ctrl+ alt+ z and plan to have the kill script bound to ctrl + alt +x
Yea this works, pretty well. I am tempted to start re learning zerg and using this for my injects and maybe even overlord timing as that was something I didn't do as well as i should back in season 1.
On July 16 2011 00:38 Eleaven wrote: This is NOT a competitive tool. It's specifically designed to be used when practicing at home. He isn't going to win any tournaments because a jpg is reminding him to build SCV's. At the competitive level, that sort of thing is already ingrained.
Oh okay, it's fine to do it against ladder opponents but not at LAN's? Hmm, I guess let's just believe that the internet and the OP is full of good then and assume that nobody will ever use that in a ladder game or any competitive online-game (plenty of online cups with prize money.), you're totally right. About the "being ingrained" - I can tell you even the best players do make mistakes if their opponent pressure's them and it's CLEARLY an advantage to be reminded about certain timingwindows rather than "making an SCV". You also seem to fail at reading or you've simply ignored my argument that you can do everything with this tool, not just SCV's. Expansion timings, timing's for allin defense of offense, whatever, you just have to edit it in. And he's even giving an instruction on how to do that. L O L .
I get that this is designed to help train and internalize timings for things like making workers and injects and I can see it doing just that. Totally not related to cheating or not I think it's pretty cool.
however that doesn't prevent some people from using this/similarly designed tools to gain an advantage when it comes to competition.Obviously this wouldn't be a problem at huge live tournaments, but what about anything held online? The organizers will have no way of checking that you aren't using programs like this. While you might have an image telling you to make a worker every 12 seconds, someone else can have a 'perfect' rush timed out.
Or what if an event simply asks people ranked highly on the ladder to sign up?
And I do believe using this gives you an unfair advantage. Even the best players get supply capped or miss workers during battles/when dealing with harass. One of the reasons to harass is to take the opponents attention away from what was planned. This program then negates one purpose of harass. Without any added skill from the player, and I would call that an unfair advantage.
On July 16 2011 01:00 Saechiis wrote: If you couldn't do it in a tournament, don't do it at home, simple.
On July 16 2011 00:44 Eleaven wrote: independent != 3rd party.
Your definition of cheater does not fit anybody who uses something like this, as it is by definition, not 3rd party. It's completely isolated.
I think you don't understand what third party means.
Any program that is used to do something related to SC2 but is not made by Blizzard is a third party tool. Being able to run isolated from the client or not has nothing to do with it. Sc2Gears, BO calculators and even a website like SC2Ranks can be considered a third party tool.
The point is if it alters your game experience it's not allowed. Since the orginal game doesn't have images popup at certain timings related to the game this tool falls into that category.
My guess is that the maker of this tool had absolutely no intention to cheat and made this from for training purposes alone. However he is (unintentionally) walking a very thin line which is not clearly set by Blizzard.
On July 16 2011 00:38 Eleaven wrote: This is NOT a competitive tool. It's specifically designed to be used when practicing at home. He isn't going to win any tournaments because a jpg is reminding him to build SCV's. At the competitive level, that sort of thing is already ingrained.
Oh okay, it's fine to do it against ladder opponents but not at LAN's? Hmm, I guess let's just believe that the internet and the OP is full of good then and assume that nobody will ever use that in a ladder game or any competitive online-game (plenty of online cups with prize money.), you're totally right. About the "being ingrained" - I can tell you even the best players do make mistakes if their opponent pressure's them and it's CLEARLY an advantage to be reminded about certain timingwindows rather than "making an SCV". You also seem to fail at reading or you've simply ignored my argument that you can do everything with this tool, not just SCV's. Expansion timings, timing's for allin defense of offense, whatever, you just have to edit it in. And he's even giving an instruction on how to do that. L O L .
It doesn't matter what can be done with it, you don't have an argument at all "you can make a timer for timings too!!!!!xx!!!11!!" That's not an argument, it's a statement of fact, and if it helps some guy learn his timings then go for it, how do you plan on stopping them?
The best players aren't going to stop making mistakes because of a .jpg. I can tell you with certainty that even with a timer you will still make mistakes in the heat of the moment, or miss injects, not because you forgot to make scv's or inject, but because you simply don't have the ability to do those things under unusual pressure.
And you've hit on a good point that i've brought up before. online tournaments should NOT ever hand out money prizes, because you can guaran-fucking-tee that people will be cheating. It's human nature. If TT1 will maphack, so will some random diamond scrub in a $50 online tournament.
Drawing comparisons to cheating at lans is so batshit retarded, you really should understand the difference between learning at home in a non competitive environment like ladder (if you still feel ladder is competitive then i'm sorry for you) and competing for money face to face
On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote: Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point?
The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious?
Hum i'm not convinced, i can't see this type of thing making you a better player sorry :p
When you are used to something, it's hard to play without it at the same level.
You mean like learning a song with a metronome, and then suddenly you can't play it when you take the metronome away?
Or learning to ride a bike with stabilisers, and then once your confident and take them away you suddenly just can't ride at all any more?
Learning doesn't work that way.
You sure are a master of how to learn and become a better player in sc2 with your analogies. Someone who wants to become pro can't think seriously that something like that will help him. Anyway i thinks this type of tool is purely for bad players, so i'm not worried at all, you can have fun with your baby-sitting tool.
On July 16 2011 01:06 Eleaven wrote: And you've hit on a good point that i've brought up before. online tournaments should NOT ever hand out money prizes, because you can guaran-fucking-tee that people will be cheating. It's human nature. If TT1 will maphack, so will some random diamond scrub in a $50 online tournament.
So that's your point on it. And it just proved to me that you're one fucking retard. Sorry, I do lack of other words to describe you and people like you. Yea, it's human nature as long as faggots who tolerate it like you exist.
awesome. i might actually try this. ladder is for learning thats what everyone says. What better way to get better than to have a thing pop up. then it becomes habit and you are doing it even when its not there.
I must say, I strongly agree that there is a significant difference between playing ladder games (practicing) and playing at a tournament competing for $$$.
That's why you can have a pro helping you out telling you what to do and coaching you on ladder (in a similar way to how this program works), but obviously not at a tourney.
On July 16 2011 00:44 Eleaven wrote: independent != 3rd party.
Your definition of cheater does not fit anybody who uses something like this, as it is by definition, not 3rd party. It's completely isolated.
I think you don't understand what third party means.
Any program that is used to do something related to SC2 but is not made by Blizzard is a third party tool. Being able to run isolated from the client or not has nothing to do with it. Sc2Gears, BO calculators and even a website like SC2Ranks can be considered a third party tool.
The point is if it alters your game experience it's not allowed. Since the orginal game doesn't have images popup at certain timings related to the game this tool falls into that category.
My guess is that the maker of this tool had absolutely no intention to cheat and made this from for training purposes alone. However he is (unintentionally) walking a very thin line which is not clearly set by Blizzard.
The technical definition pertains to whether or not something directly interacts with the process itself. It's very simple =\.
Your also blurring the words tool and program now, getting vague won't help at all. Infernal, i recommend taking a couple of hours at least to just sit back and calm down, your no better than the peasant with a pitchfork screaming "burn the witch" at this moment in time.
Please try to remember back to the time where you'd write build orders down, and put them on monitor 2, or a piece of paper or put them in a "always on top" image viewer. This was a much easier way to learn build orders than to just try to remember 20-30 different events and timings.
Cheating of course by most definitions now. maybe you should pm day9 too and ask him to stop using notepad.. it's a slippery slope bro's
On July 16 2011 01:06 Eleaven wrote:Drawing comparisons to cheating at lans is so batshit retarded, you really should understand the difference between learning at home in a non competitive environment like ladder (if you still feel ladder is competitive then i'm sorry for you) and competing for money face to face
It doesn't matter if you view ladder as a competitive environment, other people do. You're infringing on their enjoyment in what they view as competition by cheating. You've already said earlier in this thread that you use a "training tool" so it's understandable that you're trying to defend this. However, the vast majority of people aren't going to agree with you.
And stop double posting. See that edit button? Use it.
On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote: Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point?
The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious?
Hum i'm not convinced, i can't see this type of thing making you a better player sorry :p
When you are used to something, it's hard to play without it at the same level.
You mean like learning a song with a metronome, and then suddenly you can't play it when you take the metronome away?
Or learning to ride a bike with stabilisers, and then once your confident and take them away you suddenly just can't ride at all any more?
Learning doesn't work that way.
You sure are a master of how to learn and become a better player in sc2 with your analogies. Someone who wants to become pro can't think seriously that something like that will help him. Anyway i thinks this type of tool is purely for bad players, so i'm not worried at all, you can have fun with your baby-sitting tool.
Nice post, this is clearly aimed at low level players who want to get better faster, this has absolutely nothing to do with competitive pro level play, which is exactly what the reasonable posters have been saying all along. If i was still at the level where i was consistently making SCV errors, then you BET i'd try using this, unfortunately it's not the case, keep on being elitist tho, makes you seem classy
@Angryfeetus (fitting name)
"It doesn't matter if you view ladder as a competitive environment, other people do. You're infringing on their enjoyment in what they view as competition by cheating. You've already said earlier in this thread that you use a "training tool" so it's understandable that you're trying to defend this. However, the vast majority of people aren't going to agree with you.
And stop double posting. See that edit button? Use it."
I said i used a timer about a year ago to learn injects. Don't twist things to try to create an argument lol.
Edit: also would you really enjoy a game less just because your opponent MAYBE had more consistent scv production? come on now =\
On July 16 2011 01:13 Eleaven wrote: Infernal, i recommend taking a couple of hours at least to just sit back and calm down, your no better than the peasant with a pitchfork screaming "burn the witch" at this moment in time.
I'm quite calm but people like you make me want to throw up upon. Burn the witch? Nah, ban cheaters and anything even remotely likely to it. I'm not frustrated because I had to use a 2nd monitor as you assume (in fact I didn't even use a notepad, guess what, memorizing does the trick if you play something as long and much as I did play BroodWar), it's just very sad to see that despite already having MBS, Automining and AutoCast people are finding ways to completely get rid of any sort of skill involved in macro. Compare this to a small chip inside a football players brain that tells him when the exactly best moment to shoot or pass would be. Yes, a really really good player should know it anyway - however this could make anybody really good. But hey, it would only be a reminder as well, not doping, thus fair huh?
On July 16 2011 00:43 Charger wrote: However, Windows and an image viewer are not unauthorized 3rd party programs.
No they are not but they can be used to alter the game experience making their use illegal and again your statement was that it was undetectable (in quite a condensending way) while it's not:
On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote: HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever.
You would be surprised about what they can actually monitor when they have access to your RAM and can make OS API calls.
On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote: Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point?
The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious?
Hum i'm not convinced, i can't see this type of thing making you a better player sorry :p
When you are used to something, it's hard to play without it at the same level.
You mean like learning a song with a metronome, and then suddenly you can't play it when you take the metronome away?
Or learning to ride a bike with stabilisers, and then once your confident and take them away you suddenly just can't ride at all any more?
Learning doesn't work that way.
You sure are a master of how to learn and become a better player in sc2 with your analogies. Someone who wants to become pro can't think seriously that something like that will help him. Anyway i thinks this type of tool is purely for bad players, so i'm not worried at all, you can have fun with your baby-sitting tool.
Nice post, this is clearly aimed at low level players who want to get better faster, this has absolutely nothing to do with competitive pro level play, which is exactly what the reasonable posters have been saying all along. If i was still at the level where i was consistently making SCV errors, then you BET i'd try using this, unfortunately it's not the case, keep on being elitist tho, makes you seem classy
@Angryfeetus (fitting name)
"It doesn't matter if you view ladder as a competitive environment, other people do. You're infringing on their enjoyment in what they view as competition by cheating. You've already said earlier in this thread that you use a "training tool" so it's understandable that you're trying to defend this. However, the vast majority of people aren't going to agree with you.
And stop double posting. See that edit button? Use it."
I said i used a timer about a year ago to learn injects. Don't twist things to try to create an argument lol.
It's not just for scv, you can use it for all the buildings and all the different type of timers. That's why Pros spam alot to check all their timer (RAX, WG cooldown, hatch for larva inject, etc.). this tool can help any player from bronze to master, but it will not make you a better player. I'm far away from being perfect in injection for example, so i can use it, but i won't, because it will not help me when i will not have this tool, and it's forbidden in LAN event.
On July 16 2011 01:13 Eleaven wrote: Infernal, i recommend taking a couple of hours at least to just sit back and calm down, your no better than the peasant with a pitchfork screaming "burn the witch" at this moment in time.
I'm quite calm but people like you make me want to throw up upon. Burn the witch? Nah, ban cheaters and anything even remotely likely to it. I'm not frustrated because I had to use a 2nd monitor as you assume (in fact I didn't even use a notepad, guess what, memorizing does the trick if you play something as long and much as I did play BroodWar), it's just very sad to see that despite already having MBS, Automining and AutoCast people are finding ways to completely get rid of any sort of skill involved in macro. Compare this to a small chip inside a football players brain that tells him when the exactly best moment to shoot or pass would be. Yes, a really really good player should know it anyway - however this could make anybody really good. But hey, it would only be a reminder as well, not doping, thus fair huh?
It was pretty obvious you were speaking from an anti-sc2 position, but this post confirms it. like i said, you're just mad that you took the hard way, and not everyone is that dumb :S.
If you learn by pure memorisation then good for you, not many people can hold so much new information at once. Quite the talent! Again, you made my argument for me. You spent a very very very long time doing something that you could have done in a fraction of the time (like learning builds)
You know in pro-houses the coaches help them? i guess your response is "whats the point when they can do it all alone the hard way,.. it's forbidden at lan!!!!11"
As this thread seems to be going nowhere fast, I'm just going to put in my final thoughts and let the arguing continue.
Is this a helpful training tool? Yeah, for sure. Is it against the TOS? Maybe, it's up to interpretation. Is it morally right or wrong to use it? I don't know, that's up to each potential user. Can Blizzard do anything to stop this particular system? Absolutely no way in hell.
In conclusion, it is not possible to police stuff like this. Just like Blizzard can't stop someone from using an audible timer to remind them of game specific timings or a friend sitting next to you coaching you the whole time through games. Take it for what it actually is - a good training tool like all of the others out there that can also be considered 'cheating' and walk the morally grey area.
On July 16 2011 01:22 Charger wrote: As this thread seems to be going nowhere fast, I'm just going to put in my final thoughts and let the arguing continue.
Is this a helpful training tool? Yeah, for sure. Is it against the TOS? Maybe, it's up to interpretation. Is it morally right or wrong to us it? I don't know, that's up to each potential user. Can Blizzard do anything to stop this particular system? Absolutely no way in hell.
In conclusion, it is not possible to police stuff like this. Just like Blizzard can't stop someone from using an audible timer to remind them of game specific timings or a friend sitting next to you coaching you the whole time through games. Take it for what it actually is - a good training tool like all of the others out there that can also be considered 'cheating' and walk the morally grey area.
Summed up nicely, and your right. it's a waste of energy to continue with anything further.
On July 16 2011 01:13 Eleaven wrote: Infernal, i recommend taking a couple of hours at least to just sit back and calm down, your no better than the peasant with a pitchfork screaming "burn the witch" at this moment in time.
I'm quite calm but people like you make me want to throw up upon. Burn the witch? Nah, ban cheaters and anything even remotely likely to it. I'm not frustrated because I had to use a 2nd monitor as you assume (in fact I didn't even use a notepad, guess what, memorizing does the trick if you play something as long and much as I did play BroodWar), it's just very sad to see that despite already having MBS, Automining and AutoCast people are finding ways to completely get rid of any sort of skill involved in macro. Compare this to a small chip inside a football players brain that tells him when the exactly best moment to shoot or pass would be. Yes, a really really good player should know it anyway - however this could make anybody really good. But hey, it would only be a reminder as well, not doping, thus fair huh?
It was pretty obvious you were speaking from an anti-sc2 position, but this post confirms it. like i said, you're just mad that you took the hard way, and not everyone is that dumb :S.
If you learn by pure memorisation then good for you, not many people can hold so much new information at once. Quite the talent!
a) I play SC2 myself, I like the game, I even like that it's easier for newbs nowadays. Guess what, it helps me as well because SC2 is a different game than Broodwar that I have to learn as well. b) You ignore my arguments yet again. c) Everybody can memorize as much as I did if he just puts effort into it. I'm quite sure I can do it in SC2 as well, without notepads or any cheats like this. The only "talent" behind it would be dedication. d) You're a clown that tries to make others look bad to make his own position look better than it actually is by derailing every sort of argument brought up against you, such as that nice little PM you've just sent my trying to provoke me.
===> From: Eleaven [ 665 posts | Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: You thick cunt. Date: 7/16/11 01:18 Nothing else to say, sorry didn't realise you were just interested in insulting people.
Just because your too thick to see the benefits for a silver league player doesn't mean you should just shit all over an idea. especially when you don't understand it.
Maybe he's infringing on your market tho? Your like a drug dealer getting mad that people are using other product.
__ Done with you. Go defend the cheaters further and use poor arguments trying to make yourself look less like the retard you are at doing so. Have a nice day. (Also, don't PM me any further, I'll put you on my ignore list after finishing this post anyway. ^^) Edit: Okay nevermind, I can't even ignore you. But be sure I'll report your PM's if you continue anyway.
On July 16 2011 01:06 Eleaven wrote: It doesn't matter what can be done with it, you don't have an argument at all "you can make a timer for timings too!!!!!xx!!!11!!" That's not an argument, it's a statement of fact, and if it helps some guy learn his timings then go for it, how do you plan on stopping them?
I can't stop them from using it, I don't think anyone right now can stop them. (In fact, for me personally, I'd say whatever works)
People are stating their opinions. And they think using this wrong. "What can be done with it" is very often used to make somewhat reasonable arguments. Guns are used to protect...what can be done with it? Cars are designed to help transport people, what can be done with it? Alcohol may be meant to help people relax, what can be done with it? Or to specifically address training? what about steroids? Of course these are drastic comparisons, but they can still be made.
These are valid points to make, and everyone can have differing opinions.
On July 16 2011 01:13 Angry_Fetus wrote: It doesn't matter if you view ladder as a competitive environment, other people do. You're infringing on their enjoyment in what they view as competition by cheating.
On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote: HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever.
This is what you agreed to when you installed the game (maybe you should actually start reading this stuff before you lash out at someone):
When running, the game may monitor your computer's random access memory (ram) for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with the game.
Blizzard is known to use OS API's to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer.
On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote: HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever.
This is what you agreed to when you installed the game (maybe you should actually start reading this stuff before you lash out at someone):
Consent to Monitor.
When running, the game may monitor your computer's random access memory (ram) for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with the game.
Blizzard is known to use OS API's to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer.
reading the ram won't detect the alert image....
That's probably the worst thing about this. You can cheat without even being noticed. Hell yeah, it was about time.
On July 16 2011 01:13 Eleaven wrote: The technical definition pertains to whether or not something directly interacts with the process itself. It's very simple =\.
Your also blurring the words tool and program now, getting vague won't help at all.
No, it's not. As a software developer i've created enough thrid party tools that do not interact directly with the software they are intended for.
And yes, a program can be a tool and a tool can be a program, i'm sorry you don't see that. That doesn't make it vague.
Stop trying to be Mr Knowitall when you're actually wrong about a lot of things you state.
I just read this whole thread, and it is disgusting how some of you"discuss" this Macro helper thing with (or rather against) each other.
As for the tool itself, I think it is a cool idea, but it will not be condoned at LAN events. It also gives someone an advantage in macro skill at lower leagues. I don't know if it will really help you train your macro timing skills either.
After 10 games without help tools I could always be within 3 seconds of inject timings, it's just a matter or prioritizing what to learn by heart first.
I do think this thread is getting out of hand though . I guess you could use it in private OP, but I assume that Blizzard will ban you for it down the line. If anything I think you should just use that phone app for macro if you really want a form of timing help, even though I don't recommend it for practicing and becoming a better player.
EDIT: reworded to "some of you", "all" is never fair, since it is simply an exaggeration. My apologies. Just getting tired of the decrease of posting quality lately I guess. Especially the amount of thought people put into their posts sometimes.
No matter how much you guys try to spin it this gives you an unfair advantage over the other person playing you. No matter what you think of ladder is is still a competitive environment.And really the fact that people who use this call ladder a training ground is pretty funny for me because that means that they plan to attend some lans or participate in online tourneys which this device is certainly cheating.
But.. of all things you can do to give you an unfair competitive advantage this is not really that bad. I still think the best way to learn is to drop the traning wheels and fall 10000 times so you can learn.
I guess my point is that both sides are exaggerating a lot?
On July 16 2011 00:55 Harmonious wrote: If you can put up a reminder to put up the minimap every 5 secs or so, that would be the awesomest thing ever.
Only for practice. I am very good at the minimap for about 5 mins
The mini map is tricky because you don't really want to pop up on top of it (unless you do it real fast and a player reacts to the blip), Its not really square around the borders either and like i said the irfanview image program doesn't have the transparency i seem to need (which isn't a fault of the program, no image view I know of lets you see through it).
Here is the best I could come up with, I just cropped a screenshot and added some "look over there" arrows. Maybe popping that up would work without being too in your face. Then again if you really want to hammer the point home during a training session you could use a giant red arrow that takes up half the screen.
Speaking of the limitations of this method, it seems like the 5 pixel border around the outside of the image, and the image being rectangular is it. I tested it out a bit and you can call up more than one instance (for example you could draw a box around something, the lines being 11 pixels wide) but it gets messy as without a smarter batch script with forking as you need a separate link to each image you want to bring up.
I have to say I'm against using this in a ladder game, but if your just playing against Macro or Die(my fav for the after work "Im to tired, but want to practice" moments') its totally fine. Muscle memory is important.
If your using it ladder games in cheating. Sure, you could have a timer right next to the screen, but its not on the screen, running over the game. If you really want this, play with a metronome.
This image demonstrates the thinnest line you can get, say you wanted to underline your minerals and gas 5 minutes in because that is when you start floating huge amounts of each.
To the people saying this should be banned and is cheating.
By that same logic shouldn't Deadly Boss Mods be banned as cheating for WoW?
(for those who don't know DBM would tell you when a boss does XYZ and the timers on his next special move etc and where to go and marks people who have things you need to run away from and move towards)
This was an interesting and at the same time a painful 10 pages to read. Especially all the "this is clearly cheating" one liner comment, they are purely instigative.
I like that Eleaven is so passionate about giving a different perspective on it, I just hope you don't get carried away too much! It is always a wierd discussion to have because ones belief or projection of what constitutes a fair game or rule set and what crosses the line comes into play heavily. Making it so that you will have to specify and back up your argument, otherwise it holds no value what so ever, because of the differing perspectives.
What I think happens when people merely state that they consider it to be a hack and a cheat is that they are so proud to be against cheating that it isn't enough for themselves to know that. They have to tell the world about what is just and what isn't. Not only does this make them feel good about themselves or grant them something they wouldn't have gotten if they would've been satisfied in the first place with just their own opinion, but it also gives a sense of power.
Since it's a case where you have to balance a lot of different ideas, angles, scenarios etc to be able to attempt to set up something that would approach fairness, coming in, sweeping all those considerations away, stepping on everything and just plant your flag with your opinion written on it and walk away again.
Maybe I need to explore the above to be able to understand and not get frustrated or even to learn something from it. Rather than, saying they are stupid people because they don't think like me or "deduce" that they must be immature children since the behaviour seems to fit the stereotype.
The things I wanted to point out regarding the subjects at hand are as follows.
Looking at the terms of use, you have to keep in mind the guidelines are written with a certain goal or objective behind them. It should come as no surprise that items of text set up in that fashion correlate with the legal system. The thing here that I feel is incredibly important and seems to overlooked by some is that what is written is not what they allow or won't allow one to do. It is written to provide an ending barrier to certain possible expected behaviour or to be able to group actions together. The reason for doing is so they will have control over their product and if they want to they can change, enforce, or implement things all under the same space, rather than rewriting the terms of use.
You cannot put everything that is allowed or not allowed in there literally. If you do and don't use the general terms as to group and account for those that you didn't explicitly state, you are at risk of getting abused. Under these general terms even, not everything fits even if you think it automatically does. It doesn't and in many other cases it's valuable to look at what many things surrounding it before attempting to step in.
So those are not valid arguments.
The other point I wanted to touch on is what makes certain things fair and not. I'm way too sleep to do so and I apologize for that. In short, you need to define what kinds of things exactly fall under being actually an advantage. And what is unfair. And then what falls in the space where these to overlap since you certainly cannot just expect to be able to aggregate them. Then if it can be used as such. And then if that is even it's intention. Many times when reading the trends of logic where a certain situation gets painted and all kinds of assumptions form the basis, I feel they are very similar to how you reason that cutlery enables murder.
I don't know what's going on but I feel really distressed about many of the comments, they could've have easily been avoided, not made, or made useful rather than instigating a deep and totally off topic moral/ethic debate. To which they contribute nothing, hence the use of instigate. And no I just not learned that word, it's just very fitting to the general trend of how it can unfold.
What do I think about it? It really doesn't matter what I think.
Edit: expanded a sentence because it didn't seem clear enough during the re-read.
On July 16 2011 05:39 Eknoid4 wrote: Now imagine if you'd practiced starcraft instead of figuring out innovative new ways to do well without getting better
This took me like an hour at work to write up and maybe a few more minutes at home to get the position and image size right. I've probably spent more time reading this thread than writing the scripts.
On July 16 2011 05:18 Denzil wrote: To the people saying this should be banned and is cheating.
By that same logic shouldn't Deadly Boss Mods be banned as cheating for WoW?
(for those who don't know DBM would tell you when a boss does XYZ and the timers on his next special move etc and where to go and marks people who have things you need to run away from and move towards)
If i remember right from my smacky wow days all the AddOns you could download were written using their API, when a mod started doing stuff they didn't want they would patch the game to break that functionality of the mod, such as decursive. Blizzard would also take popular features from the AddOns and incorporate them into later patches as well, such as floating combat text.
This isn't hugely similar as far as the software goes as all the script does is pop up an image on a timer. But functionally it does something similar to a really dumb AddOn.
On July 16 2011 01:07 Deleuze wrote: As I said before, the only reasonable way forward from this is to incorporate it into a custom map via map editor -
Everyone knows it's being used, there is no possibility of it being view as a hack and it would actually be gain from added functionality with SC2.
The custom maps out there for practicing are already being really well developed by the people that do that, YABOT as an example is an awesome map for this type of practice. I haven't got a chance of making a map that good as I don't design custom maps. This is just a different type of tool.
people like you disgust me. trying to gain advantages over others just because you dont have the brains to do something
Yeah, clicking a button every x seconds requires so much brains. <_<
If the boring-as-nuts spawn larvae mechanic had an actual strategic decision to be made instead of "click every 25 seconds" then people wouldn't have to make timers.
On July 16 2011 05:18 Denzil wrote: To the people saying this should be banned and is cheating.
By that same logic shouldn't Deadly Boss Mods be banned as cheating for WoW?
(for those who don't know DBM would tell you when a boss does XYZ and the timers on his next special move etc and where to go and marks people who have things you need to run away from and move towards)
That is the most irrelevant comparison I've ever heard. I'll just refute your point simply.. Blizzard allows player made addons in WoW, but the do not allow it in Starcraft 2. There are many other flaws in your reasoning, but just the one I stated above is enough = /.
On July 16 2011 05:18 Denzil wrote: To the people saying this should be banned and is cheating.
By that same logic shouldn't Deadly Boss Mods be banned as cheating for WoW?
(for those who don't know DBM would tell you when a boss does XYZ and the timers on his next special move etc and where to go and marks people who have things you need to run away from and move towards)
That is the most irrelevant comparison I've ever heard. I'll just refute your point simply.. Blizzard allows player made addons in WoW, but the do not allow it in Starcraft 2. There are many other flaws in your reasoning, but just the one I stated above is enough = /.
Like I just said, this isn't an AddOn and it doesn't interact (transfer any information, call methods or hook into the rendering) with blizzard software, but his comparison is still good as it has similar functionality of a really basic AddOn.
The issue is Blizzard have some control over AddOns in wow but shouldn't be able to even see this running. Not that that is really a big issue because if it was complex enough to be really game breaking it would need to interact with Blizzards software.
I don't care what you do in-between games but during a game you must rely on yourself and only on yourself (and the tools given by blizzard in-game).
Whatever your intent, this creates an advantage against an unsuspecting opponent and produces unfair encounters. I can't fathom how you could see that as anything else than cheating.
Btw, having a GM friend telling you everything to do during a game IS cheating. An iphone-app helping you too. Basically anything HELPING to do anything in-game on ladder against unsuspecting opponents is cheating. If something is clearly forbidden during tournaments there is no moral justification to use it on ladder (the only competitive environment for the vast majority of players). Would it be used only in custom games I would have no complaint. But on ladder games it should be bannable offense. Unfortunately it might be undetectable or unactionable by Blizzard. Such kind of cheating is the worst. This is immoral.
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
On July 16 2011 13:10 freakhill wrote: If something is clearly forbidden during tournaments there is no moral justification to use it on ladder
So how do you feel about walling off at the bottom of the ramp? You can't do that at a lot of competitions as they have edited in those sunken depots, but I am sure if you ran into a terran that put a depot + bunker at the bottom of his ramp you would yell for a ban.
On July 16 2011 13:10 freakhill wrote: If something is clearly forbidden during tournaments there is no moral justification to use it on ladder
So how do you feel about walling off at the bottom of the ramp? You can't do that at a lot of competitions as they have edited in those sunken depots, but I am sure if you ran into a terran that put a depot + bunker at the bottom of his ramp you would yell for a ban.
This makes no sense, It is plain and simple not the same map.
While i'm sure the initial purpose of this is noble and to help players better themselves at a rate faster than they would normally achieve on their own, i can't help but express dismay at its existence.
I personally don't approve of this, and don't think it should be used, however, if someone else feels like they want it / need it, and are willing to run the risk of blizzard scanning their running processes and getting caught and banned,
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
External from the game without hooks...yeah. It does however...come into the game via always on top to interact with your game experience. It is a 3rd party "program" that helps (obviously not at the highest levels of play since you should be hitting injects almost perfectly).
I'm not against the use of this on a map where people know you have it (custom map with this built in) but I just rather ladder have 2 people without any type of coach or help behind them. I do think the people freaking out about it should relax, but at the same time I would like for you to e-mail and ask permission from blizzard if it is crossing the line or not. I would think they would say it is.
On July 16 2011 13:10 freakhill wrote: If something is clearly forbidden during tournaments there is no moral justification to use it on ladder
So how do you feel about walling off at the bottom of the ramp? You can't do that at a lot of competitions as they have edited in those sunken depots, but I am sure if you ran into a terran that put a depot + bunker at the bottom of his ramp you would yell for a ban.
This makes no sense, It is plain and simple not the same map.
I made my point which was there are rules at tournaments that do not apply online, that are either un enforceable (online coaching) or just shouldn't matter (playing music, or running a program in the background while laddering).
On July 16 2011 13:42 reneg wrote: While i'm sure the initial purpose of this is noble and to help players better themselves at a rate faster than they would normally achieve on their own, i can't help but express dismay at its existence.
I personally don't approve of this, and don't think it should be used, however, if someone else feels like they want it / need it, and are willing to run the risk of blizzard scanning their running processes and getting caught and banned,
then by all means, continue.
Man so much restraint required..
You will not "risk a ban" for opening a .jpg Goodness gracious people love to talk a lot of rubbish!
I don't think it is going to help that much, most lower league players would be too focusing onto what is going on with the screen rather than mini map, mineral etc it's not like any extra indicators would really change their habits anyway
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
External from the game without hooks...yeah. It does however...come into the game via always on top to interact with your game experience. It is a 3rd party "program" that helps (obviously not at the highest levels of play since you should be hitting injects almost perfectly).
I'm not against the use of this on a map where people know you have it (custom map with this built in) but I just rather ladder have 2 people without any type of coach or help behind them. I do think the people freaking out about it should relax, but at the same time I would like for you to e-mail and ask permission from blizzard if it is crossing the line or not. I would think they would say it is.
Windows Task Manager also comes into the game via anyways on top, and its already hotkeyed to ctrl + alt + delete. You could put your build order into a bunch of silly named tasks and use this to help you at SC2.
I'm not going to try asking blizzard as there would be nothing helpful they could say, they couldn't really confirm or deny if this would be picked up by warden as then they are admitting to some serious PC snooping, or telling real hackers what the wardens limitations are.
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
External from the game without hooks...yeah. It does however...come into the game via always on top to interact with your game experience. It is a 3rd party "program" that helps (obviously not at the highest levels of play since you should be hitting injects almost perfectly).
I'm not against the use of this on a map where people know you have it (custom map with this built in) but I just rather ladder have 2 people without any type of coach or help behind them. I do think the people freaking out about it should relax, but at the same time I would like for you to e-mail and ask permission from blizzard if it is crossing the line or not. I would think they would say it is.
Windows Task Manager also comes into the game via anyways on top, and its already hotkeyed to ctrl + alt + delete. You could put your build order into a bunch of silly named tasks and use this to help you at SC2.
I'm not going to try asking blizzard as there would be nothing helpful they could say, they couldn't really confirm or deny if this would be picked up by warden as then they are admitting to some serious PC snooping, or telling real hackers what the wardens limitations are.
Hmm, set windows media player to always on top, create a build order playlist.. attract "ban the cheater" posts on TL! :D
Hmm or better yet.. "use basic windows functionality for its intended purposes" [picture] "careful dude blizz might ban u"
Could be a new meme? :O.
anyway, i promise i wont post again in this thread lol.
On July 16 2011 14:23 zergrushkekeke wrote: One step ahead of you :D
Wtf is that real lol?
1) Not that hard to memorize up to 16 supply. 2) 2005 minerals at 10 minutes into the game. 3) you could just write it down on a piece of paper and tape it to the screen.
I can't make up my mind which of these is most ridiculous.
On July 16 2011 15:24 Nerski wrote: This 'helper' will absolutely get you banned.
Under no circumstances what so ever can you use files that interact with the SC2 interface or code in any way shape or form.
Then it's a good thing they don't do that. They interact with the interface on a different layer which is the same as effectively not interacting with it at all, at least in a sense that they aren't working directly together.
On July 16 2011 15:24 Nerski wrote: This 'helper' will absolutely get you banned.
Under no circumstances what so ever can you use files that interact with the SC2 interface or code in any way shape or form.
Blizzard will never ban you for this application. The application does not affect the game and does not give unfair benefits. A similar idea underlies the 'Probe' from sc2drill.com. To practice their skills and builds, it is used a lot of players for several months. No one has been banned.
On July 16 2011 05:39 Eknoid4 wrote: Now imagine if you'd practiced starcraft instead of figuring out innovative new ways to do well without getting better
This took me like an hour at work to write up and maybe a few more minutes at home to get the position and image size right. I've probably spent more time reading this thread than writing the scripts.
Now imagine if you'd practiced starcraft instead of figuring out innovative new ways to tell me why you don't need to practice starcraft to get better at starcraft
On July 16 2011 05:39 Eknoid4 wrote: Now imagine if you'd practiced starcraft instead of figuring out innovative new ways to do well without getting better
This took me like an hour at work to write up and maybe a few more minutes at home to get the position and image size right. I've probably spent more time reading this thread than writing the scripts.
Now imagine if you'd practiced starcraft instead of figuring out innovative new ways to tell me why you don't need to practice starcraft to get better at starcraft
Alright, there are a lot of people with conflicting opinions in this thread, so i've decided to input my own. First off, people are acting like if he uses this he will win no matter what. That is not true. Just because he gets reminded to build an scv doesnt mean he'll win. A third party program aids the user, but does not guarantee success. It all comes down to mechanics. If he remembers to build scvs, that's great. But is he remembering to look at the minimap? Is he remembering to expand? Is he remembering to scout? Maybe, but if he is outmatched by the other player, no third party program will help him win. This program will help him learn timings. That is it. He will use it, get used to making scvs, and stop using it. If he continues to use it after a month or two, then it wont be helping him. He will form a habit of only building scvs when the program tells him to. If he wishes to succeed, he will practice building scvs with his program then stop. Honestly, all this program is doing is reminding him to do something that could so easily have been overlooked. It's pretty much the same as putting a sticky note on the side of your monitor saying "Build SCVs." The only difference is that it pops up on screen. Sure, this could be viewed as cheating, but since it isnt directly tweaking the game itself, it isnt a bannable offense. And it would be impossible to report him for hacking because there is no visible proof of him using this program in a match. Sure, people could report him, but it would most likely say "uh, he beat me, so i think he was using some sort of hack. it's the only way he could've beaten me. he was such a noob."
In Conclusion, this program only helps with one aspect of the game. There are so many parts to this game, so a little help in one will only make a small difference. He could just learn the timings from playing a lot of games, but a little coaching never hurt anyone.
Also, I am in no way endorsing cheating with this post. I am merely stating that he is using a tool to get better at something he loves doing.
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
External from the game without hooks...yeah. It does however...come into the game via always on top to interact with your game experience. It is a 3rd party "program" that helps (obviously not at the highest levels of play since you should be hitting injects almost perfectly).
I'm not against the use of this on a map where people know you have it (custom map with this built in) but I just rather ladder have 2 people without any type of coach or help behind them. I do think the people freaking out about it should relax, but at the same time I would like for you to e-mail and ask permission from blizzard if it is crossing the line or not. I would think they would say it is.
Windows Task Manager also comes into the game via anyways on top, and its already hotkeyed to ctrl + alt + delete. You could put your build order into a bunch of silly named tasks and use this to help you at SC2.
I'm not going to try asking blizzard as there would be nothing helpful they could say, they couldn't really confirm or deny if this would be picked up by warden as then they are admitting to some serious PC snooping, or telling real hackers what the wardens limitations are.
Why do you dodge every question? He didn't say to ask Blizzard if warden could detect it, he said to ask them if they are fine with the program, and that it doesn't violate the ToS. We all know what they will say. The fact that you keep bringing up that it "can't be detected" shows you already admit that it violates the ToS, and is frankly pretty sad.
is there a programm or tool, which plays a sound after x seconds and where u can bind any key to reset this timer? would be imo the best and without overlay, u could just bind shift+x and it would reset the timer, like this the timer would allways be in time xD
On July 14 2011 18:23 zergrushkekeke wrote: What I have put together some batch files that will use irfanview to repeatedly bring up an overlay on top of the control groups visible area for a few seconds. There are methods out there to remind players to keep up with macro activities like mule, inject, build workers, http://injectlarvae.com/ is an example, but this method seems new and didn't come up when I searched for it. I don't think this breaks the TOS, and even if it did I don't know how blizzard could monitor it.
Specifics My setup brings up an "S" over the top of control group 5 every 12 seconds or so, to remind me to build SCVs, 5 being my command center control group and S being for build SCV. It would be pretty easy to modify the image, timing and position for mules, crono boosts, injects, or whatever you want.
The files are simple and should be pretty understandable, but also they are only going to look right if you have the same resolution as me (or fiddle some numbers), I am guessing you should also run Windowed-Fullscreen. I should mention this will probably only work on XP out of the box, some tweaking would have to be done for vista win7 and mac.
How to do it 1. Install irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ set it to be always on top (options, tick always on top)
2. Either unzip the file (that I'm going to upload somewhere eventually) to C:/_SC2 or go to the following "set it up from scratch" section
3. Run the Tick.bat
You can also make a shortcut of the batch file (has to be on the desktop for XP) and give it a shortcut key combination to start it at the start of the game, I don't know a good way to close it besides just alt tabbing.
set it up from scratch 1. Make a folder! Name: C:\_SC2
2. Make a .BMP Name: scv.bmp 44x18 pixels with an "s" and some amount of artistic design
3. Make batch file 1 Name: MAKEIMG.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rem be in the right folder, standard install c: cd C:\Program Files\IrfanView
rem create in pos x, y i_view32.exe c:\_sc2\scv.bmp /pos (528,687) /hide=15 /resample ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Make batch file 2 Name: TICK.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: cd C:\_SC2 :start rem - Start up the process again. rem FLASH FOR TWO SECONDS, TWICE link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe ping 127.0.0.1 -n 1 link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe rem CHANGE THIS NUMBER (-n x) FOR THE DELAY ping 127.0.0.1 -n 11 goto:start ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.Make a link Name: link Target: C:\_SC2\MAKEIMG.BAT Start in: C:\_sc2
people like you disgust me. trying to gain advantages over others just because you dont have the brains to do something. why not try creating something thats a piece of the actual game like a custom game to help people with their macro?
I'm not supporting using this (I think it would qualify as a 'hack'), but ...are you joking? He DID use his brains to do something! Try being positive and do something yourself too!
On July 17 2011 02:36 fickazzz wrote: is there a programm or tool, which plays a sound after x seconds and where u can bind any key to reset this timer? would be imo the best and without overlay, u could just bind shift+x and it would reset the timer, like this the timer would allways be in time xD
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
External from the game without hooks...yeah. It does however...come into the game via always on top to interact with your game experience. It is a 3rd party "program" that helps (obviously not at the highest levels of play since you should be hitting injects almost perfectly).
I'm not against the use of this on a map where people know you have it (custom map with this built in) but I just rather ladder have 2 people without any type of coach or help behind them. I do think the people freaking out about it should relax, but at the same time I would like for you to e-mail and ask permission from blizzard if it is crossing the line or not. I would think they would say it is.
Windows Task Manager also comes into the game via anyways on top, and its already hotkeyed to ctrl + alt + delete. You could put your build order into a bunch of silly named tasks and use this to help you at SC2.
I'm not going to try asking blizzard as there would be nothing helpful they could say, they couldn't really confirm or deny if this would be picked up by warden as then they are admitting to some serious PC snooping, or telling real hackers what the wardens limitations are.
Why do you dodge every question? He didn't say to ask Blizzard if warden could detect it, he said to ask them if they are fine with the program, and that it doesn't violate the ToS. We all know what they will say. The fact that you keep bringing up that it "can't be detected" shows you already admit that it violates the ToS, and is frankly pretty sad.
I wonder how effective writing an .mp3 that tells you to check the minimap every 5 seconds, make an SCV every 17, and asks you if you want to expand every couple of minutes would be.
Pretty sure Blizzard would deem this as cheating. In the right hands sure i'm fine with it, if you use it in custom games to actually train. Not so much in ladder or tournaments, though.
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
External from the game without hooks...yeah. It does however...come into the game via always on top to interact with your game experience. It is a 3rd party "program" that helps (obviously not at the highest levels of play since you should be hitting injects almost perfectly).
I'm not against the use of this on a map where people know you have it (custom map with this built in) but I just rather ladder have 2 people without any type of coach or help behind them. I do think the people freaking out about it should relax, but at the same time I would like for you to e-mail and ask permission from blizzard if it is crossing the line or not. I would think they would say it is.
Windows Task Manager also comes into the game via anyways on top, and its already hotkeyed to ctrl + alt + delete. You could put your build order into a bunch of silly named tasks and use this to help you at SC2.
I'm not going to try asking blizzard as there would be nothing helpful they could say, they couldn't really confirm or deny if this would be picked up by warden as then they are admitting to some serious PC snooping, or telling real hackers what the wardens limitations are.
Why do you dodge every question? He didn't say to ask Blizzard if warden could detect it, he said to ask them if they are fine with the program, and that it doesn't violate the ToS. We all know what they will say. The fact that you keep bringing up that it "can't be detected" shows you already admit that it violates the ToS, and is frankly pretty sad.
it doesnt violate the TOS.
Says who? They interpret the TOS, not you, or the creator of this tool. Even if it doesn't directly violate the TOS, that's not the point. Would Blizzard have a problem with the tool?
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
External from the game without hooks...yeah. It does however...come into the game via always on top to interact with your game experience. It is a 3rd party "program" that helps (obviously not at the highest levels of play since you should be hitting injects almost perfectly).
I'm not against the use of this on a map where people know you have it (custom map with this built in) but I just rather ladder have 2 people without any type of coach or help behind them. I do think the people freaking out about it should relax, but at the same time I would like for you to e-mail and ask permission from blizzard if it is crossing the line or not. I would think they would say it is.
Windows Task Manager also comes into the game via anyways on top, and its already hotkeyed to ctrl + alt + delete. You could put your build order into a bunch of silly named tasks and use this to help you at SC2.
I'm not going to try asking blizzard as there would be nothing helpful they could say, they couldn't really confirm or deny if this would be picked up by warden as then they are admitting to some serious PC snooping, or telling real hackers what the wardens limitations are.
Why do you dodge every question? He didn't say to ask Blizzard if warden could detect it, he said to ask them if they are fine with the program, and that it doesn't violate the ToS. We all know what they will say. The fact that you keep bringing up that it "can't be detected" shows you already admit that it violates the ToS, and is frankly pretty sad.
it doesnt violate the TOS.
Says who? They interpret the TOS, not you, or the creator of this tool. Even if it doesn't directly violate the TOS, that's not the point. Would Blizzard have a problem with the tool?
They can't interpret it to the point where they're telling you what you can or can't run on your own PC independent of the actual game.
And as long as it doesn't violate the TOS, Blizzard as a company won't have a problem with it. I doubt they have an "ethical department" where employees sit and answer calls and e-mails to give subjective opinions on whether something is morally right or wrong.
It's okay to not really like the idea of this tool, I'm personally indifferent to it myself. Trying to shut off the thread with false arguments and loaded questions is pointless though. The mods would already have done that, as they did with all the other threads that do actually violate TOS.
I think this will help a lot of players. Whether or not this is a violation of the TOS is uncertain. I would like to think it does not because it does not interact with the game in any way. This is only one step up to how a lot of players have sticky notes all over their monitor with reminders. Anyways, if Blizzard approves of this, then I can see a lot of people using it.
The reality is that if you'r ethe type of person who uses these tools you will never be the type of person who works hard enough to get good enough at this game for this tool to matter.
Speaking of the limitations of this method, it seems like the 5 pixel border around the outside of the image, and the image being rectangular is it. I tested it out a bit and you can call up more than one instance (for example you could draw a box around something, the lines being 11 pixels wide) but it gets messy as without a smarter batch script with forking as you need a separate link to each image you want to bring up.
That is really cool. The reason this works is that the brain starts predicting these alerts and you start looking just before the alert. Then it doesn't matter if you remove the alert later.
On July 18 2011 16:33 Eknoid4 wrote: The reality is that if you'r ethe type of person who uses these tools you will never be the type of person who works hard enough to get good enough at this game for this tool to matter.
You should look up how training helps the brain predict things and how that affect habits.
On July 18 2011 16:33 Eknoid4 wrote: The reality is that if you'r ethe type of person who uses these tools you will never be the type of person who works hard enough to get good enough at this game for this tool to matter.
You should look up how training helps the brain predict things and how that affect habits.
I promise you will be enlightened.
Sorry but last I checked playing starcraft 2 is still a more realistic form of training. And I'm talking about attitudes. People who think they need some trainer with a line somewhere already have the idea that they can't improve enough without it. Let me know when anyone gets pro because of this instead of just because of the amount of work they put in.
I was just gonna post how I hate such retarded tools and how mechanically easy this game already is. But whatever, my mechanics in SC2 are nearly perfect and anybody that is any smart would be almost perfect after about 3 or 4 months of playing in this regard as well. With that being said - anyone who is willing to use such application admits that he/she is physically disabled.
On July 14 2011 19:29 Rannasha wrote: To all those who call "cheat": I don't see how this is any different than setting up an alarm-clock / cellphone to sound a beep every 12 seconds. In fact, a beep is probably preferable since it doesn't obstruct the screen.
Nevertheless, the preferred way is to just learn to do it without external aids.
So set up an alarm clock external from the game. Why mess with this shit.
This is an alarm clock external from the game, how external do you have to go for it to be legitimate in your mind? The grey area from lightest to darkest goes: an external device sitting in your room like a mobile phone or a metronome a webpage or a program that makes a ding noise, a second monitor that has some program running on it an overlay on top of the game client some type of hardware input to your PC (macro keyboard type stuff) then rendering the clock in game with directX hooks.
This system seems pretty easy to setup, use and change.
External from the game without hooks...yeah. It does however...come into the game via always on top to interact with your game experience. It is a 3rd party "program" that helps (obviously not at the highest levels of play since you should be hitting injects almost perfectly).
I'm not against the use of this on a map where people know you have it (custom map with this built in) but I just rather ladder have 2 people without any type of coach or help behind them. I do think the people freaking out about it should relax, but at the same time I would like for you to e-mail and ask permission from blizzard if it is crossing the line or not. I would think they would say it is.
Windows Task Manager also comes into the game via anyways on top, and its already hotkeyed to ctrl + alt + delete. You could put your build order into a bunch of silly named tasks and use this to help you at SC2.
I'm not going to try asking blizzard as there would be nothing helpful they could say, they couldn't really confirm or deny if this would be picked up by warden as then they are admitting to some serious PC snooping, or telling real hackers what the wardens limitations are.
Why do you dodge every question? He didn't say to ask Blizzard if warden could detect it, he said to ask them if they are fine with the program, and that it doesn't violate the ToS. We all know what they will say. The fact that you keep bringing up that it "can't be detected" shows you already admit that it violates the ToS, and is frankly pretty sad.
it doesnt violate the TOS.
Says who? They interpret the TOS, not you, or the creator of this tool. Even if it doesn't directly violate the TOS, that's not the point. Would Blizzard have a problem with the tool?
After 6 back and forths with the customer service webmail bots I finally got an answer: " Customer Service Representative
If all it's doing is giving you a pop-up reminder to do things, as opposed to halving your build times or making your structures invincible or so forth, then that ordinarily would not be prohibited by the Terms of Use as they currently stand. Such a modification would not be supported by us, and we would retain the right to prohibit its use in the future, in which case posting it on any website would count as distribution, but currently, it should not be an issue. "
In other news I tried to re learn zerg with a modified script but found I really didn't need it, larva timings are all over the place and you can just monitor queen energy once you know what you are doing.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZYHkH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://h7.abload.de/img/implied-facepalm4u5y.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YykxN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4YPPt.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3vUZ2.jpg)
