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On July 16 2011 00:29 Vari wrote:
the issue is that there are other things that are considered 'cheating' by your standards that people do all the time
like writing down build orders.
personally I don't think it comes close to something like map hacking, but I guess some people just look at it all differently. I'm not really scared of people remembering to build scvs or getting their build orders right.
Yes thank you, I'm glad you brought this up. Where does the line get drawn? What about a post it with my BO next to my screen or opened up on my 2nd monitor? It certainly changes the 'experience' and gives an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't have his BO written down and readily available to follow. The same goes for audible alarms or any other training tool. Or what about a friend who is in GM sitting next to you telling what to do every second of the game? That is probably cheating as well.
My whole point was that you can't police stuff like this, it's just not possible. Take it for what it actually is - a good training tool like all of the others out there that could be considered 'cheating'.
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On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote:
HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever.
This is what you agreed to when you installed the game (maybe you should actually start reading this stuff before you lash out at someone):
Consent to Monitor.
When running, the game may monitor your computer's random access memory (ram) for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with the game.
Blizzard is known to use OS API's to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer.
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On July 16 2011 00:34 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote:Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating"..  baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about? Gogogo! Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool. We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent? Edit: ROFL, are you REALLY that fucking stupid? Show nested quote +
If 10 players use this and it helps them increase in skill, that's a win for the community.
=> If 10 players used a maphack and it helped them to increase in skill that was a total win for the community as well by your book. G T F O .
Don't try to be a twat, it doesn't look good on you..
This doesn't break the ToS. If 10 people used maphacks that would be a loss.
Don't put words into my mouth, enough useless drivel is coming out of your own.
You can take things for what they are: unenforceable training tools
OR you can carry on being bitter that people are trying to get better, in more efficient ways than you did.
Next you'll tell me that i should feel back for helping out one of my friends irl whilst he was laddering.
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On July 14 2011 19:41 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 19:24 CptCutter wrote:On July 14 2011 18:23 zergrushkekeke wrote:WhatI have put together some batch files that will use irfanview to repeatedly bring up an overlay on top of the control groups visible area for a few seconds. There are methods out there to remind players to keep up with macro activities like mule, inject, build workers, http://injectlarvae.com/ is an example, but this method seems new and didn't come up when I searched for it. I don't think this breaks the TOS, and even if it did I don't know how blizzard could monitor it. SpecificsMy setup brings up an "S" over the top of control group 5 every 12 seconds or so, to remind me to build SCVs, 5 being my command center control group and S being for build SCV. It would be pretty easy to modify the image, timing and position for mules, crono boosts, injects, or whatever you want. The files are simple and should be pretty understandable, but also they are only going to look right if you have the same resolution as me (or fiddle some numbers), I am guessing you should also run Windowed-Fullscreen. I should mention this will probably only work on XP out of the box, some tweaking would have to be done for vista win7 and mac. How to do it1. Install irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ set it to be always on top (options, tick always on top) 2. Either unzip the file (that I'm going to upload somewhere eventually) to C:/_SC2 or go to the following "set it up from scratch" section 3. Run the Tick.bat You can also make a shortcut of the batch file (has to be on the desktop for XP) and give it a shortcut key combination to start it at the start of the game, I don't know a good way to close it besides just alt tabbing. set it up from scratch1. Make a folder! Name: C:\_SC2 2. Make a .BMP Name: scv.bmp 44x18 pixels with an "s" and some amount of artistic design 3. Make batch file 1 Name: MAKEIMG.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rem be in the right folder, standard install c: cd C:\Program Files\IrfanView rem create in pos x, y i_view32.exe c:\_sc2\scv.bmp /pos (528,687) /hide=15 /resample --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. Make batch file 2 Name: TICK.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: cd C:\_SC2 :start rem - Start up the process again. rem FLASH FOR TWO SECONDS, TWICE link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe ping 127.0.0.1 -n 1 link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe rem CHANGE THIS NUMBER (-n x) FOR THE DELAY ping 127.0.0.1 -n 11 goto:start --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.Make a link Name: link Target: C:\_SC2\MAKEIMG.BAT Start in: C:\_sc2 people like you disgust me. trying to gain advantages over others just because you dont have the brains to do something. why not try creating something thats a piece of the actual game like a custom game to help people with their macro? HE disgusts you because he found a way to help him learn his macro? Your the piece of shit here, judging people for doing things differently. "oh but it's okay ifg its an alarm that plays a beep?" (someone else said) mmk, suppose he's deaf? whether or not he is isnt relevant. Whilst he's microing his army, it's not his memory failing him, it's his limited mechanical ability failing him. This won't make him better or give him some crazy advantage. IT might solidfy timings in him much like a metronome, just visual. Calm down, let people learn how they want to learn.. it doesn't break any rules. more practically, even if it did break rules, it's not enforceable.
oh? so where do you draw the line? i would call anybody that uses a 3rd party program to help them play the game to be a cheater...
people should not have their ability's bumped up simply because they are bad at something. its like in exams, you get people who are absolutely terrible at them, but does that make it right to give them hints/spoilers to questions on the exam?
just play the game to the best of your ability and nobody will look down on you.
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On July 16 2011 00:37 djengizz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:03 Charger wrote:
HOWEVER, this is undetectable by Blizzard and will never, ever, ever get him banned. I guess you may not understand how software or computers in general work. Or maybe you are some secret computer genius and would like to explain exactly how Blizzard would have any clue this was running, you know, seeing as how it doesn't interact with the game client whatsoever. This is what you agreed to when you installed the game (maybe you should actually start reading this stuff before you lash out at someone): Show nested quote +
Consent to Monitor.
When running, the game may monitor your computer's random access memory (ram) for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with the game.
Blizzard is known to use OS API's to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer.
However, Windows and an image viewer are not unauthorized 3rd party programs.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On July 16 2011 00:38 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:34 iNfeRnaL wrote:On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote:Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating".. baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about? Gogogo! Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool. We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent? Edit: ROFL, are you REALLY that fucking stupid?
If 10 players use this and it helps them increase in skill, that's a win for the community.
=> If 10 players used a maphack and it helped them to increase in skill that was a total win for the community as well by your book. G T F O . Don't try to be a twat, it doesn't look good on you.. This doesn't break the ToS. If 10 people used maphacks that would be a loss. Don't put words into my mouth, enough useless drivel is coming out of your own.
Oh so maphacking is completely wrong but this is right?
That's like saying hey - if you punch somebody that's alright except you actually punched him so hard that his face is bleeding.
You realize the fact that you can be reminded about EVERYTHING with this tool right, not just scv's?
Pylons, gateway timings, EVERYTHING, you can even set an alarm clock up that tells you to gear up for an specific attack right now, to tell you "now baneling allin would happen if so" and whatnot, you really want to tell me this isn't nearly as bad as a maphack? Do you think ANY offline tournament would E V E R tolerate this if there's countless stuff on the progamers screen popping up that he could also memorize by practicing more? REALLY?
I am sorry for putting words into your mouth but maybe you should think twice before posting something that OBVIOUSLY will be interpreted the way I did.
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On July 16 2011 00:39 CptCutter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 19:41 Eleaven wrote:On July 14 2011 19:24 CptCutter wrote:On July 14 2011 18:23 zergrushkekeke wrote:WhatI have put together some batch files that will use irfanview to repeatedly bring up an overlay on top of the control groups visible area for a few seconds. There are methods out there to remind players to keep up with macro activities like mule, inject, build workers, http://injectlarvae.com/ is an example, but this method seems new and didn't come up when I searched for it. I don't think this breaks the TOS, and even if it did I don't know how blizzard could monitor it. SpecificsMy setup brings up an "S" over the top of control group 5 every 12 seconds or so, to remind me to build SCVs, 5 being my command center control group and S being for build SCV. It would be pretty easy to modify the image, timing and position for mules, crono boosts, injects, or whatever you want. The files are simple and should be pretty understandable, but also they are only going to look right if you have the same resolution as me (or fiddle some numbers), I am guessing you should also run Windowed-Fullscreen. I should mention this will probably only work on XP out of the box, some tweaking would have to be done for vista win7 and mac. How to do it1. Install irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ set it to be always on top (options, tick always on top) 2. Either unzip the file (that I'm going to upload somewhere eventually) to C:/_SC2 or go to the following "set it up from scratch" section 3. Run the Tick.bat You can also make a shortcut of the batch file (has to be on the desktop for XP) and give it a shortcut key combination to start it at the start of the game, I don't know a good way to close it besides just alt tabbing. set it up from scratch1. Make a folder! Name: C:\_SC2 2. Make a .BMP Name: scv.bmp 44x18 pixels with an "s" and some amount of artistic design 3. Make batch file 1 Name: MAKEIMG.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rem be in the right folder, standard install c: cd C:\Program Files\IrfanView rem create in pos x, y i_view32.exe c:\_sc2\scv.bmp /pos (528,687) /hide=15 /resample --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. Make batch file 2 Name: TICK.BAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: cd C:\_SC2 :start rem - Start up the process again. rem FLASH FOR TWO SECONDS, TWICE link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe ping 127.0.0.1 -n 1 link.LNK ping 127.0.0.1 -n 2 taskkill /IM i_view32.exe rem CHANGE THIS NUMBER (-n x) FOR THE DELAY ping 127.0.0.1 -n 11 goto:start --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.Make a link Name: link Target: C:\_SC2\MAKEIMG.BAT Start in: C:\_sc2 people like you disgust me. trying to gain advantages over others just because you dont have the brains to do something. why not try creating something thats a piece of the actual game like a custom game to help people with their macro? HE disgusts you because he found a way to help him learn his macro? Your the piece of shit here, judging people for doing things differently. "oh but it's okay ifg its an alarm that plays a beep?" (someone else said) mmk, suppose he's deaf? whether or not he is isnt relevant. Whilst he's microing his army, it's not his memory failing him, it's his limited mechanical ability failing him. This won't make him better or give him some crazy advantage. IT might solidfy timings in him much like a metronome, just visual. Calm down, let people learn how they want to learn.. it doesn't break any rules. more practically, even if it did break rules, it's not enforceable. oh? so where do you draw the line? i would call anybody that uses a 3rd party program to help them play the game to be a cheater... people should not have their ability's bumped up simply because they are bad at something. its like in exams, you get people who are absolutely terrible at them, but does that make it right to give them hints/spoilers to questions on the exam? just play the game to the best of your ability and nobody will look down on you.
independent != 3rd party.
Your definition of cheater does not fit anybody who uses something like this, as it is by definition, not 3rd party. It's completely isolated.
I'm trying hard to understand why people are deciding that others "should not" find ways to help improve quickly, seems like an odd viewpoint
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Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point?
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On July 16 2011 00:34 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote:Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating".. baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about? Gogogo! Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool. We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent?
Only if you also call day[9] videos a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent. Sure its not running at the same time as the game but it is a slippery slope towards using every single hack you can get away with!
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On July 16 2011 00:44 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:38 Eleaven wrote:On July 16 2011 00:34 iNfeRnaL wrote:On July 16 2011 00:27 Eleaven wrote:Funny.. germans being concerned about "cheating".. baseless accusations and not knowing what your talking about? Gogogo! Come on, at least understand how something works before bashing it and demanding thread closurers or bans etc. Opening an image isn't a hack. Ladder is practice tool. We ex Broodwar players to refer to anything that gives you an unfair advantage as a hack. Yes, that might be a loose usage of the term. More satisfied if I call it a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent? Edit: ROFL, are you REALLY that fucking stupid?
If 10 players use this and it helps them increase in skill, that's a win for the community.
=> If 10 players used a maphack and it helped them to increase in skill that was a total win for the community as well by your book. G T F O . Don't try to be a twat, it doesn't look good on you.. This doesn't break the ToS. If 10 people used maphacks that would be a loss. Don't put words into my mouth, enough useless drivel is coming out of your own. Oh so maphacking is completely wrong but this is right? That's like saying hey - if you punch somebody that's alright except you actually punched him so hard that his face is bleeding. You realize the fact that you can be reminded about EVERYTHING with this tool right, not just scv's? Pylons, gateway timings, EVERYTHING, you can even set an alarm clock up that tells you to gear up for an specific attack right now, to tell you "now baneling allin would happen if so" and whatnot, you really want to tell me this isn't nearly as bad as a maphack? Do you think ANY offline tournament would E V E R tolerate this if there's countless stuff on the progamers screen popping up that he could also memorize by practicing more? REALLY? I am sorry for putting words into your mouth but maybe you should think twice before posting something that OBVIOUSLY will be interpreted the way I did.
Your being so ridiculous. Your comparing one guy sat at home using timers to help him learn things, to an offline competition?
You do realise that training is more often than not assisted by coaches, or in athletics by things like heart monitors, various on-the-fly measurements of hydration/sweat.
This is NOT a competitive tool. It's specifically designed to be used when practicing at home. He isn't going to win any tournaments because a jpg is reminding him to build SCV's. At the competitive level, that sort of thing is already ingrained.
Your just angry at the world cos things arent as hard as they were for you.
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On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote:
Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point?
The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious?
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On July 16 2011 00:49 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote:
Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point? The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious?
Hum i'm not convinced, i can't see this type of thing making you a better player sorry :p
When you are used to something, it's hard to play without it at the same level.
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If you can put up a reminder to put up the minimap every 5 secs or so, that would be the awesomest thing ever.
Only for practice. I am very good at the minimap for about 5 mins
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On July 15 2011 10:22 zergrushkekeke wrote:
taskkill /IM i_view32.exe
taskkill /IM cmd.exe
I have the start script bound to ctrl+ alt+ z and plan to have the kill script bound to ctrl + alt +x
Yea this works, pretty well. I am tempted to start re learning zerg and using this for my injects and maybe even overlord timing as that was something I didn't do as well as i should back in season 1.
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On July 16 2011 00:53 Samhax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:49 Eleaven wrote:On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote:
Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point? The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious? Hum i'm not convinced, i can't see this type of thing making you a better player sorry :p When you are used to something, it's hard to play without it at the same level.
You mean like learning a song with a metronome, and then suddenly you can't play it when you take the metronome away?
Or learning to ride a bike with stabilisers, and then once your confident and take them away you suddenly just can't ride at all any more?
Learning doesn't work that way.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On July 16 2011 00:38 Eleaven wrote:
This is NOT a competitive tool. It's specifically designed to be used when practicing at home. He isn't going to win any tournaments because a jpg is reminding him to build SCV's. At the competitive level, that sort of thing is already ingrained.
Oh okay, it's fine to do it against ladder opponents but not at LAN's?
Hmm, I guess let's just believe that the internet and the OP is full of good then and assume that nobody will ever use that in a ladder game or any competitive online-game (plenty of online cups with prize money.), you're totally right.
About the "being ingrained" - I can tell you even the best players do make mistakes if their opponent pressure's them and it's CLEARLY an advantage to be reminded about certain timingwindows rather than "making an SCV".
You also seem to fail at reading or you've simply ignored my argument that you can do everything with this tool, not just SCV's. Expansion timings, timing's for allin defense of offense, whatever, you just have to edit it in.
And he's even giving an instruction on how to do that.
L O L .
On July 16 2011 00:49 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote:
Can you use this in a LAN event? No, so what's the point? The point is to increase the efficiency of your at-home training. I thought by now that was quite obvious?
You don't improve or increase your efficiency by using cheats.
In fact you will perform worse if you do not have them at given offline events then.
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If you couldn't do it in a tournament, don't do it at home, simple.
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United States64 Posts
I get that this is designed to help train and internalize timings for things like making workers and injects and I can see it doing just that. Totally not related to cheating or not I think it's pretty cool.
however that doesn't prevent some people from using this/similarly designed tools to gain an advantage when it comes to competition.Obviously this wouldn't be a problem at huge live tournaments, but what about anything held online? The organizers will have no way of checking that you aren't using programs like this.
While you might have an image telling you to make a worker every 12 seconds, someone else can have a 'perfect' rush timed out.
Or what if an event simply asks people ranked highly on the ladder to sign up?
And I do believe using this gives you an unfair advantage. Even the best players get supply capped or miss workers during battles/when dealing with harass. One of the reasons to harass is to take the opponents attention away from what was planned. This program then negates one purpose of harass. Without any added skill from the player, and I would call that an unfair advantage.
On July 16 2011 01:00 Saechiis wrote:
If you couldn't do it in a tournament, don't do it at home, simple.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Glad to see atleast the vast majority having a good sense of what's fair and what's not.
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On July 16 2011 00:44 Eleaven wrote:
independent != 3rd party.
Your definition of cheater does not fit anybody who uses something like this, as it is by definition, not 3rd party. It's completely isolated.
I think you don't understand what third party means.
Any program that is used to do something related to SC2 but is not made by Blizzard is a third party tool. Being able to run isolated from the client or not has nothing to do with it. Sc2Gears, BO calculators and even a website like SC2Ranks can be considered a third party tool.
The point is if it alters your game experience it's not allowed. Since the orginal game doesn't have images popup at certain timings related to the game this tool falls into that category.
My guess is that the maker of this tool had absolutely no intention to cheat and made this from for training purposes alone. However he is (unintentionally) walking a very thin line which is not clearly set by Blizzard.
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EPT
