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It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned. |
On June 24 2011 03:03 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:53 axellerate wrote:
Have you seen Complexity's roster? Destiny, Minigun and CatZ were/are the top skilled players on that team. In order of GM league ranking, from top to bottom, the team's members in the league (plus Destiny) are: coLrsvp ROOTdrewbie coLMinigun coLRyze NOVAstalife coLCatZ ONECrunCher [ROOTDestiny] coLFireZerg Looks to me like the ROOT folks are mixed in pretty evenly.
I don't think people are really talking about GM ranking...
I would personally say the top players on coL would easily be Minigun, Drewbie, Catz and Cruncher. I don't think the loss of Destiny is a huge deal though for either of them, he was fine solo before, he'll be fine solo now.
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On June 24 2011 02:57 aMies wrote:
*Note: Contrary to popular belief, Steven was not asked to censor himself, but merely to tone down his use of racial and homophobic slurs. I can't see how everyone acts like we wanted to put duct tape over his mouth and insert a voice over post-edit. If you're in a workplace, odds are you don't talk like that, and before you say anything...YES, "pro-gamers" have a workplace and it's called Starcraft II."
Thanks for the very reasonable clarification. I personally think there are way too many people in the gaming community who just don't appreciate the value of being respectful to other people in public, but that's just me.
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On June 24 2011 00:50 Zyphen wrote:
I honestly had no idea who the heck this guy was until I saw this thread and then visited his fan page out of curiousity. He's got a lot of highlight videos on youtube as well. I watched quite a few of them.
Whoa whoa whoa. You got out, watch a view youtube video highlights of him, and suddenly (as by the rest of your post) you know how Destiny gets his viewers and why he acts the way he does?
Funny story, I watch Destiny because he has very creative play and he is actually really smart with the game. In fact, most of my views on politics, religion, and a few other things differ completely from Destiny's views. And I am not nearly as vulgar as he can be yet somehow I still enjoy watching his stream.
What you fail to see because you "looked at a lot of highlight videos" is that Destiny is really just an up and down kind of guy. He doesn't always yell (in fact most of the time he'll kind of apologize for it after he does it) and he can sometimes not even really be talkitive. But he's not some "Howard Stern Wanna-be" because his character is more of a "I think this is funny and I'm excited" type, which is the reason for the raising of voice and the odd antics. He reminds me of a lot of normal people I know at college (Who are Music Majors like he was and I am).
But keep on thinking all the highlight videos you've watched in roughly one day's time can give you an inside look on what Destiny is like and why he gets viewers.
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*Note: Contrary to popular belief, Steven was not asked to censor himself, but merely to tone down his use of racial and homophobic slurs. I can't see how everyone acts like we wanted to put duct tape over his mouth and insert a voice over post-edit. If you're in a workplace, odds are you don't talk like that, and before you say anything...YES, "pro-gamers" have a workplace and it's called Starcraft II."
You can call that not censoring but it is censoring.
This whole incident has blown up in CoL's face because of the original wording of the post. There was clearly some hostility in wording. Some of the wording may have been taken directly from Steven but putting it to post is naive at best. Further comment is probably doing more harm than good at this point. Im sure that people have settled on an opinion and will continue with that opinion unless something more substantial than misguided damage control is posted.
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On June 24 2011 03:03 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:53 axellerate wrote:
Have you seen Complexity's roster? Destiny, Minigun and CatZ were/are the top skilled players on that team. In order of GM league ranking, from top to bottom, the team's members in the league (plus Destiny) are: coLrsvp ROOTdrewbie coLMinigun coLRyze NOVAstalife coLCatZ ONECrunCher [ROOTDestiny] coLFireZerg Looks to me like the ROOT folks are mixed in pretty evenly.
Ladder rankings are less than meaningless.
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On June 24 2011 03:07 Mordiford wrote:
I don't think people are really talking about GM ranking...
I would personally say the top players on coL would easily be Minigun, Drewbie, Catz and Cruncher. I don't think the loss of Destiny is a huge deal though for either of them, he was fine solo before, he'll be fine solo now.
Performance in tournaments doesn't necessarily equate to ladder performance, but ladder is a fairly neutral and even-handed a measure of skill in comparison (because of the effect of seeding and mind games in a tournament context.).
Edit:
On June 24 2011 03:10 Mallard86 wrote:
Ladder rankings are less than meaningless.
Ladder rankings may not be predictive of tournament performance for a bunch of reasons, but you're completely overstating it.
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On June 24 2011 03:10 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:07 Mordiford wrote:
I don't think people are really talking about GM ranking...
I would personally say the top players on coL would easily be Minigun, Drewbie, Catz and Cruncher. I don't think the loss of Destiny is a huge deal though for either of them, he was fine solo before, he'll be fine solo now. Performance in tournaments doesn't necessarily equate to ladder performance, but ladder is a fairly neutral and even-handed a measure of skill in comparison (because of the effect of seeding and mind games in a tournament context.).
The thing is, a lot of people mess around on ladder and there are other factors that come into play, such as testing builds etc... Or things like constantly getting sniped by Deezer.
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On June 24 2011 03:03 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:53 axellerate wrote:
Have you seen Complexity's roster? Destiny, Minigun and CatZ were/are the top skilled players on that team. In order of GM league ranking, from top to bottom, the team's members in the league (plus Destiny) are: coLrsvp ROOTdrewbie coLMinigun coLRyze NOVAstalife coLCatZ ONECrunCher [ROOTDestiny] coLFireZerg Looks to me like the ROOT folks are mixed in pretty evenly.
Kind of a facepalm right there. rsvp right at the top completely invalidates whatever statement you were trying to make lol. He's definitely not terrible, but he isn't that great either. I'd easily put him at Destiny's level....and that's not a compliment. Drewbie, Cruncher, and Catz are the "stars" of coL, with Minigun being the darkhorse, as he can be so good on stream, but really comes up short come tournament time.
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Why is there even 46 pages of debate? I've skimmed some and its yet another example of people creating drama where there is none.
Small misunderstanding with regards to a contract with Destiny not quite realising what he was committing too. Complexity and Destiny realise they aren't going to work together so part ways. End of. What is there to discuss? This forum pains me to read sometimes.
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On June 24 2011 03:12 Sm3agol wrote:
Kind of a facepalm right there. rsvp right at the top completely invalidates whatever statement you were trying to make lol. He's definitely not terrible, but he isn't that great either. I'd easily put him at Destiny's level....and that's not a compliment. Drewbie, Cruncher, and Catz are the "stars" of coL, with Minigun being the darkhorse, as he can be so good on stream, but really comes up short come tournament time.
I'm not making any value judgment at all about these guys, just saying that the ladder doesn't agree with the assertion that the old or the new members of coL are systematically any better than each other. I'd have to dig around a bunch to make a similar comparison of tournament performance, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't show that the ROOT guys were the stars of the new combined team.
I should say that I am a huge fan of the ex-ROOT players, I'm just saying that their performance is on par with that of their new team.
Edit: Based on MLG Columbus results, Drewbie and Cruncher both got into the Pool Play stage, while CatZ made it two rounds farther in open bracket play than Ryze and Stalife, who both got knocked out in Round 3.
So yeah, going by only MLG Columbus, Drewbie, Cruncher, and CatZ were the strongest 3 people, and if it hadn't been for CatZ's schedule problems with July, he might have gotten farther. But, for example, Stalife had a better record in regular season NASL than either CatZ or Drewbie. You can't really judge these things based on one tournament.
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On June 24 2011 03:20 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:12 Sm3agol wrote:
Kind of a facepalm right there. rsvp right at the top completely invalidates whatever statement you were trying to make lol. He's definitely not terrible, but he isn't that great either. I'd easily put him at Destiny's level....and that's not a compliment. Drewbie, Cruncher, and Catz are the "stars" of coL, with Minigun being the darkhorse, as he can be so good on stream, but really comes up short come tournament time. I'm not making any value judgment at all about these guys, just saying that the ladder doesn't agree with the assertion that the old or the new members of coL are systematically any better than each other. I'd have to dig around a bunch to make a similar comparison of tournament performance, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't show that the ROOT guys were the stars of the new combined team. I should say that I am a huge fan of the ex-ROOT players, I'm just saying that their performance is on par with that of their new team.
Well, then we'll just have to disagree, like I said earlier, I think 3 of the top 4 coL players are former ROOT players, but I don't see how this entire discussion is relevant to this thread?
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to everyone in this thread that is saying it isnt a lose for coL to lose destiny. If you watch steven stream a lot like myself you would then see that in the past few weeks in these "practice" games, steven was rippin cruncher a new ahole most of the time. same with stalife and firezerg. soo much so that it was pointless for him to play these games cause they would then meta game him REALLY hard which in turn is horrible practice approach.
I really do think that destiny was top4 in coL. just because the coL that was before root joined had more teammates in bigger tournys doesn't really mean they are better. coL is a bigger organization than ROOT ever was and to make that kinda comparison is ridiculous. coL members had better opportunities then said Root players.
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On June 24 2011 03:08 Atlas_550 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 00:50 Zyphen wrote:
I honestly had no idea who the heck this guy was until I saw this thread and then visited his fan page out of curiousity. He's got a lot of highlight videos on youtube as well. I watched quite a few of them.
Whoa whoa whoa. You got out, watch a view youtube video highlights of him, and suddenly (as by the rest of your post) you know how Destiny gets his viewers and why he acts the way he does? Funny story, I watch Destiny because he has very creative play and he is actually really smart with the game. In fact, most of my views on politics, religion, and a few other things differ completely from Destiny's views. And I am not nearly as vulgar as he can be yet somehow I still enjoy watching his stream. What you fail to see because you "looked at a lot of highlight videos" is that Destiny is really just an up and down kind of guy. He doesn't always yell (in fact most of the time he'll kind of apologize for it after he does it) and he can sometimes not even really be talkitive. But he's not some "Howard Stern Wanna-be" because his character is more of a "I think this is funny and I'm excited" type, which is the reason for the raising of voice and the odd antics. He reminds me of a lot of normal people I know at college (Who are Music Majors like he was and I am). But keep on thinking all the highlight videos you've watched in roughly one day's time can give you an inside look on what Destiny is like and why he gets viewers.
Lol. You act like there's some hidden depth to Destiny. You related to him or something?
I actually think I've watched more than I needed to in order to understand Destiny's popularity. Plenty of his fans give similar reasons (crass humor, "interesting", straight talker, etc.) throughout this thread and fanclub. Your reasons are outliers (and I really don't believe are your only motivators - interesting play? plenty of that everywhere, and better). Yes, you've somehow managed to see through his gruff, vulgar exterior into the "real" Destiny and I have no right to so harshly judge him. PM me additional details if you care to. I'm sure I'll be enthralled by everything I'll be missing.
My central point is that Destiny and his leaving whatever team isn't worth 46 pages of hand wringing. I'm offended more by the attention given him than anything. Just to clarify my original intention.
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On June 24 2011 03:22 Mordiford wrote:
Well, then we'll just have to disagree, like I said earlier, I think 3 of the top 4 coL players are former ROOT players, but I don't see how this entire discussion is relevant to this thread?
Good point. I was responding to a guy who said "CatZ, Minigun, and Destiny were the best people on the new team!"
I think we've shown pretty clearly that that's not true whether you use tournament or ladder results.
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My central point is that Destiny and his leaving whatever team isn't worth 46 pages of hand wringing. I'm offended more by the attention given him than anything. Just to clarify my original intention.
I hope you realize that about 23 pages of the 46 are people like you essentially saying "Destiny doesnt deserve a thread."
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On June 24 2011 02:57 aMies wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:19 Mordiford wrote:
In honesty, I'd rather just put this to rest, but it would be nice if Complexity did clear up what they meant when one of their staff claimed he refused to play for the team among other things because there are numerous aspects of Destiny that I sort of get even if I don't agree with them, but refusing to play for your team is sort of douchey and a major negative to pin on someone.
To clarify this, "refusing to play with the team" was not meant to be as literal as it's being taken. I'm sure playing with the team, in terms of its players, wasn't a problem to him, however he refused to change his name (to represent the team), or participate in organization mandated requests, such as representing a specific sponsor with a specific banner or something along those lines. He made it clear to us that he did not want to play for the organization, so we obliged his request by dissolving the contract. For those saying that we should sue him over the breach of contract... We are human beings, much like him. We would not sue someone trying to support his family just because we can, when the contract could easily just be dissolved with no harm done. We are a business, yes, but we are also gamers ourselves...we do have compassion and understanding. We are not, regardless of what people will tell you, corporate tyrants. We have been involved with lawsuits before, and in this case it would be likely that no one would win, regardless of the judicial outcome. Summary of above: Please don't make uneducated comments about lawsuits.Also, for the sake of repetition, I'll paste a response I gave to a user via the Facebook area of our website to clear a few things up: "The game's T rating has nothing to do with the objections we have to some of his content. I can assure you that it isn't cursing and overall humorous bm that we are objective to. Racial and homophobic slurs are not something that most take lightly, regardless of the context. It's just not something we have ever tolerated as an organization, plain and simple. Steven not remaining in a contract has little, if anything, to do with his behavior on his stream though. He regretted signing a contract, as he expressed, but we were still willing to work with him. As it became apparent that he was not willing to participate in obligations such as name changes, blogging, setting up his stream, it was also apparent that he wouldn't be a part of the organization in the near future. We wanted to work with him to correct this, but as time progressed it was decided that it would be more beneficial to mutually part ways, with stream content only being factor that contributed to the announcement being sooner rather than later. Personally, I will continue to watch his stream and support what he does, as I want to see him succeed in providing for his family and having a successful life. I know it's hard to understand, but the decision by both parties to mutually terminate the contract was a business decision, not personal. It is obviously in the nature of the community to create friction where need not be. *Note: Contrary to popular belief, Steven was not asked to censor himself, but merely to tone down his use of racial and homophobic slurs. I can't see how everyone acts like we wanted to put duct tape over his mouth and insert a voice over post-edit. If you're in a workplace, odds are you don't talk like that, and before you say anything...YES, "pro-gamers" have a workplace and it's called Starcraft II."
So he didn't want join with his mates because he wanted to still say some bad words. Is that right? Look, I like to curse as much as the next sailor, but c'mon...
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On June 24 2011 03:32 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:22 Mordiford wrote:
Well, then we'll just have to disagree, like I said earlier, I think 3 of the top 4 coL players are former ROOT players, but I don't see how this entire discussion is relevant to this thread? Good point. I was responding to a guy who said "CatZ, Drewbie, and Destiny were the best people on the new team!" I think we've shown pretty clearly that that's not true whether you use tournament or ladder results.
I disagree, I don't think we've shown anything clearly... The ladder results tend to be all over the place and aren't considered too relevant, we haven't seen any tournament results listed so nothing has been "clearly shown" here.
Once again, such discussions aren't too relevant to this thread and I still think that of the top 4 players in coL right now, three would be from ROOT, Destiny was up there when he was a part of the team, but dropping him from the team seems like the right decision for both parties, if Complexity doesn't like his language, that's fine, and Destiny has always been fine on his own, he's no doubt still good friends with his former ROOT-mates and likely some of the members of Complexity as well.
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On June 24 2011 03:30 Zyphen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:08 Atlas_550 wrote:On June 24 2011 00:50 Zyphen wrote:
I honestly had no idea who the heck this guy was until I saw this thread and then visited his fan page out of curiousity. He's got a lot of highlight videos on youtube as well. I watched quite a few of them.
Whoa whoa whoa. You got out, watch a view youtube video highlights of him, and suddenly (as by the rest of your post) you know how Destiny gets his viewers and why he acts the way he does? Funny story, I watch Destiny because he has very creative play and he is actually really smart with the game. In fact, most of my views on politics, religion, and a few other things differ completely from Destiny's views. And I am not nearly as vulgar as he can be yet somehow I still enjoy watching his stream. What you fail to see because you "looked at a lot of highlight videos" is that Destiny is really just an up and down kind of guy. He doesn't always yell (in fact most of the time he'll kind of apologize for it after he does it) and he can sometimes not even really be talkitive. But he's not some "Howard Stern Wanna-be" because his character is more of a "I think this is funny and I'm excited" type, which is the reason for the raising of voice and the odd antics. He reminds me of a lot of normal people I know at college (Who are Music Majors like he was and I am). But keep on thinking all the highlight videos you've watched in roughly one day's time can give you an inside look on what Destiny is like and why he gets viewers. Lol. You act like there's some hidden depth to Destiny. You related to him or something? I actually think I've watched more than I needed to in order to understand Destiny's popularity. Plenty of his fans give similar reasons (crass humor, "interesting", straight talker, etc.) throughout this thread and fanclub. Your reasons are outliers (and I really don't believe are your only motivators - interesting play? plenty of that everywhere, and better). Yes, you've somehow managed to see through his gruff, vulgar exterior into the "real" Destiny and I have no right to so harshly judge him. PM me additional details if you care to. I'm sure I'll be enthralled by everything I'll be missing. My central point is that Destiny and his leaving whatever team isn't worth 46 pages of hand wringing. I'm offended more by the attention given him than anything. Just to clarify my original intention.
brohan don't you think your taking this a lil too personally like your supper pissed that he gets viewers?
just because you dont see what we see in destiny doesn't give you the right to come in here and flame him and his fans brohan. plus maybe a few of us are concerned seeing as how he is one of the very few sc2 players with kid and and family to look after. to me it seems you dont wanna accept that fact that destiny has become a staple in the sc2 community deal with it brohan.
when you watch destiny long enough you start to learn a bit about his personal life his kid his g/f his friends. he lets you in and doesnt mind. I think he relates to his fans more then any-other sc2 pro out there. that is the "hidden" depth. and no you can't get that from stupid highlight vids. figure it out brohan
Edit: Fixed
User was warned for this post
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What's with all this bubble talk? People really don't believe esports is going to get bigger? And also the quoted text is so annoying, please spoiler it.
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On June 24 2011 03:36 Mordiford wrote:
I disagree, I don't think we've shown anything clearly... The ladder results tend to be all over the place and aren't considered too relevant, we haven't seen any tournament results listed so nothing has been "clearly shown" here.
I edited my earlier post to include relevant results from NASL and MLG Columbus. Are there other tournaments you feel we should discuss as well? Also, you quoted a comment of mine that I'd corrected. The guy I was answering stated that "CatZ, Minigun, and Destiny" were the stars of the new Complexity team. Drewbie wasn't on his list.
Specifically, I have not seen any results to suggest that Minigun or Destiny have performed well in tournaments.
Edit: Based on MLG Columbus results, Drewbie and Cruncher both got into the Pool Play stage, while CatZ made it two rounds farther in open bracket play than Ryze and Stalife, who both got knocked out in Round 3.
So yeah, going by only MLG Columbus, Drewbie, Cruncher, and CatZ were the strongest 3 people, and if it hadn't been for CatZ's schedule problems with July, he might have gotten farther. But, for example, Stalife had a better record in regular season NASL than either CatZ or Drewbie. You can't really judge these things based on one tournament.
BTW, the relevance of this discussion to the thread is what, if anything, Complexity is losing by not having Destiny around. I'm stating that I don't think he was a standout performer, though CatZ believes he has a lot of potential for further development and I trust his opinion on that.
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EPT
