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It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned. |
Seems pretty damned selfish to get upset over this. Steven pays the bills by streaming; he's a talented entertainer and player—and I'll stand by the latter; he may not be on the same level as most professional players, but he is both practiced and intelligent. He doesn't need to be associated with a big name, or to obligate himself to anyone else to continue doing what he does.
Bashing him for his language, level of education, or "illegitimate" child is ridiculous to the point of obscenity. I don't think that Steven is any sort of martyr, but behind the "explicit" language he clearly both has intelligent ideas and is more capable of communicating them than most. He's living with his partner and child and paying the bills with SC2. It's none of our damned business whether he's had his relationship recognized by some officious religious institution, and it has no bearing at all on his career or validity as a streamer.
I don't want to disrespect any other players by naming them in contrast with Destiny, but there are a lot of people in this community whose behavior is far less acceptable. Their reputations may even be far more considerable, and they get away with ridiculous shit because they don't use the same language, or have placed higher in competitive SC2. It's completely messed up that we hate on Destiny for irrelevant crap like this.
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On June 24 2011 03:47 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 24 2011 03:39 Mallard86 wrote:On June 24 2011 03:34 Ownos wrote:On June 24 2011 02:57 aMies wrote:On June 24 2011 02:19 Mordiford wrote:
In honesty, I'd rather just put this to rest, but it would be nice if Complexity did clear up what they meant when one of their staff claimed he refused to play for the team among other things because there are numerous aspects of Destiny that I sort of get even if I don't agree with them, but refusing to play for your team is sort of douchey and a major negative to pin on someone.
To clarify this, "refusing to play with the team" was not meant to be as literal as it's being taken. I'm sure playing with the team, in terms of its players, wasn't a problem to him, however he refused to change his name (to represent the team), or participate in organization mandated requests, such as representing a specific sponsor with a specific banner or something along those lines. He made it clear to us that he did not want to play for the organization, so we obliged his request by dissolving the contract. For those saying that we should sue him over the breach of contract... We are human beings, much like him. We would not sue someone trying to support his family just because we can, when the contract could easily just be dissolved with no harm done. We are a business, yes, but we are also gamers ourselves...we do have compassion and understanding. We are not, regardless of what people will tell you, corporate tyrants. We have been involved with lawsuits before, and in this case it would be likely that no one would win, regardless of the judicial outcome. Summary of above: Please don't make uneducated comments about lawsuits.Also, for the sake of repetition, I'll paste a response I gave to a user via the Facebook area of our website to clear a few things up: "The game's T rating has nothing to do with the objections we have to some of his content. I can assure you that it isn't cursing and overall humorous bm that we are objective to. Racial and homophobic slurs are not something that most take lightly, regardless of the context. It's just not something we have ever tolerated as an organization, plain and simple. Steven not remaining in a contract has little, if anything, to do with his behavior on his stream though. He regretted signing a contract, as he expressed, but we were still willing to work with him. As it became apparent that he was not willing to participate in obligations such as name changes, blogging, setting up his stream, it was also apparent that he wouldn't be a part of the organization in the near future. We wanted to work with him to correct this, but as time progressed it was decided that it would be more beneficial to mutually part ways, with stream content only being factor that contributed to the announcement being sooner rather than later. Personally, I will continue to watch his stream and support what he does, as I want to see him succeed in providing for his family and having a successful life. I know it's hard to understand, but the decision by both parties to mutually terminate the contract was a business decision, not personal. It is obviously in the nature of the community to create friction where need not be. *Note: Contrary to popular belief, Steven was not asked to censor himself, but merely to tone down his use of racial and homophobic slurs. I can't see how everyone acts like we wanted to put duct tape over his mouth and insert a voice over post-edit. If you're in a workplace, odds are you don't talk like that, and before you say anything...YES, "pro-gamers" have a workplace and it's called Starcraft II." So he didn't want join with his mates because he wanted to still say some bad words. Is that right? Look, I like to curse as much as the next sailor, but c'mon... Destiny is a very principled person. He is not abandoning his friends and team. He is refusing to be censored by the team. You can look at his reasons as petty but many people have fought in many venues to receive and retain these rights which you dismiss. What in the world are you blabbering about? Who fought for what exactly? Are you kidding? If you've ever seen him on Weapon of Choice or SotG, he claims he's a very big believer in language being entirely contextual, and that words should not be offensive outside of an offensive context. Thus, he would not want to censor himself, it's not about the ease of dropping words or being immature, though some may see it that way. I actually disagree with him, while I agree with the contextual aspect and the responsibility being on the listener to deal with not being offended, I think it's not a big deal to remove some very specific words from your vocabulary, he's more stubborn in this regard in the belief that no words require censorship. No one is claiming he's trying to change the world or something stupid like that, he just doesn't believe it's his responsibility to edit his speech for people who are easily and in his opinion unnecessarily offended.
Not related to what I said.
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On June 24 2011 04:56 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:47 Mordiford wrote:On June 24 2011 03:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 24 2011 03:39 Mallard86 wrote:On June 24 2011 03:34 Ownos wrote:On June 24 2011 02:57 aMies wrote:On June 24 2011 02:19 Mordiford wrote:
In honesty, I'd rather just put this to rest, but it would be nice if Complexity did clear up what they meant when one of their staff claimed he refused to play for the team among other things because there are numerous aspects of Destiny that I sort of get even if I don't agree with them, but refusing to play for your team is sort of douchey and a major negative to pin on someone.
To clarify this, "refusing to play with the team" was not meant to be as literal as it's being taken. I'm sure playing with the team, in terms of its players, wasn't a problem to him, however he refused to change his name (to represent the team), or participate in organization mandated requests, such as representing a specific sponsor with a specific banner or something along those lines. He made it clear to us that he did not want to play for the organization, so we obliged his request by dissolving the contract. For those saying that we should sue him over the breach of contract... We are human beings, much like him. We would not sue someone trying to support his family just because we can, when the contract could easily just be dissolved with no harm done. We are a business, yes, but we are also gamers ourselves...we do have compassion and understanding. We are not, regardless of what people will tell you, corporate tyrants. We have been involved with lawsuits before, and in this case it would be likely that no one would win, regardless of the judicial outcome. Summary of above: Please don't make uneducated comments about lawsuits.Also, for the sake of repetition, I'll paste a response I gave to a user via the Facebook area of our website to clear a few things up: "The game's T rating has nothing to do with the objections we have to some of his content. I can assure you that it isn't cursing and overall humorous bm that we are objective to. Racial and homophobic slurs are not something that most take lightly, regardless of the context. It's just not something we have ever tolerated as an organization, plain and simple. Steven not remaining in a contract has little, if anything, to do with his behavior on his stream though. He regretted signing a contract, as he expressed, but we were still willing to work with him. As it became apparent that he was not willing to participate in obligations such as name changes, blogging, setting up his stream, it was also apparent that he wouldn't be a part of the organization in the near future. We wanted to work with him to correct this, but as time progressed it was decided that it would be more beneficial to mutually part ways, with stream content only being factor that contributed to the announcement being sooner rather than later. Personally, I will continue to watch his stream and support what he does, as I want to see him succeed in providing for his family and having a successful life. I know it's hard to understand, but the decision by both parties to mutually terminate the contract was a business decision, not personal. It is obviously in the nature of the community to create friction where need not be. *Note: Contrary to popular belief, Steven was not asked to censor himself, but merely to tone down his use of racial and homophobic slurs. I can't see how everyone acts like we wanted to put duct tape over his mouth and insert a voice over post-edit. If you're in a workplace, odds are you don't talk like that, and before you say anything...YES, "pro-gamers" have a workplace and it's called Starcraft II." So he didn't want join with his mates because he wanted to still say some bad words. Is that right? Look, I like to curse as much as the next sailor, but c'mon... Destiny is a very principled person. He is not abandoning his friends and team. He is refusing to be censored by the team. You can look at his reasons as petty but many people have fought in many venues to receive and retain these rights which you dismiss. What in the world are you blabbering about? Who fought for what exactly? Are you kidding? If you've ever seen him on Weapon of Choice or SotG, he claims he's a very big believer in language being entirely contextual, and that words should not be offensive outside of an offensive context. Thus, he would not want to censor himself, it's not about the ease of dropping words or being immature, though some may see it that way. I actually disagree with him, while I agree with the contextual aspect and the responsibility being on the listener to deal with not being offended, I think it's not a big deal to remove some very specific words from your vocabulary, he's more stubborn in this regard in the belief that no words require censorship. No one is claiming he's trying to change the world or something stupid like that, he just doesn't believe it's his responsibility to edit his speech for people who are easily and in his opinion unnecessarily offended. Not related to what I said.
It IS a big deal.
Romiving some specific words out of your vocabulary might seem like a minor adjustment but it is not.
Something stands behind this and behind this something also stands something and behind this something behind something also stands something - and making this "minor" adjustment means disregarding this something - and this something has to do with values.
Values that deal with people caring about surface-level shit and making drama out of trivial and unimportant. Values that deal with this hipocrisy where you get 50 x times more flame/criticism for using some curse words (mostly because some people act like fucking automatons operating on a paradigm comparable to: "curse word detected" -> 'cursing is bad beliefs' - > "this guy is dumb/inappropiate/bad in whatever other way" - > "I need to criticise, ridicule or flame him because its bad to curse !") than for doing shit that actually really is bad and has significant negative consequences.
So it is with some racist/homophobic stuff as well.
PS. I don`t say this in regard to the team Complexity or anyone directly involved in this. I mean this in a general context that people are ridicilously overcaring about surface-level stuff like using curse words or saying some racist/homophobic stuff that really isn`t backed up by real racist or otherwise sick/destructive beliefs. Actually, people are not just ridicilously overcaring about this. They just don`t fucking understand shit or do not care about understanding it They either don`t even think about what they are talking about and why and about what they believe in or they do it out of some messed up egotic/egoistic desires.
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Sounds like both parties involved agreed that it would be in their best interest to part ways and move on.... end of story.
I don't see why you idiots have to turn this into an E-Drama.
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On June 24 2011 04:49 Skaya wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:41 Jinsho wrote:
They did not die to defend people's freedom to curse on a stream on the internet. Please do not twist their meaningful deaths into something perverse. tell me who you are to define what freedom means to some? i think you're being a little naive thinking people go out and die for our supposed "freedom," without knowing what that even entails. on topic: I respect destiny for sticking to his beliefs, but i was looking forward to CoL.Destiny. that's alright though, destiny will live on and i will continue to support him through his streaming. good luck destiny & complexity
Are you serious or are you trolling? I'm seriously just bewildered at people's posts at this point on the issue. What he said is completely accurate. Nor was anyone denying Destiny's right to free speech.
On June 24 2011 05:26 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 04:56 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 24 2011 03:47 Mordiford wrote:On June 24 2011 03:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 24 2011 03:39 Mallard86 wrote:On June 24 2011 03:34 Ownos wrote:On June 24 2011 02:57 aMies wrote:On June 24 2011 02:19 Mordiford wrote:
In honesty, I'd rather just put this to rest, but it would be nice if Complexity did clear up what they meant when one of their staff claimed he refused to play for the team among other things because there are numerous aspects of Destiny that I sort of get even if I don't agree with them, but refusing to play for your team is sort of douchey and a major negative to pin on someone.
To clarify this, "refusing to play with the team" was not meant to be as literal as it's being taken. I'm sure playing with the team, in terms of its players, wasn't a problem to him, however he refused to change his name (to represent the team), or participate in organization mandated requests, such as representing a specific sponsor with a specific banner or something along those lines. He made it clear to us that he did not want to play for the organization, so we obliged his request by dissolving the contract. For those saying that we should sue him over the breach of contract... We are human beings, much like him. We would not sue someone trying to support his family just because we can, when the contract could easily just be dissolved with no harm done. We are a business, yes, but we are also gamers ourselves...we do have compassion and understanding. We are not, regardless of what people will tell you, corporate tyrants. We have been involved with lawsuits before, and in this case it would be likely that no one would win, regardless of the judicial outcome. Summary of above: Please don't make uneducated comments about lawsuits.Also, for the sake of repetition, I'll paste a response I gave to a user via the Facebook area of our website to clear a few things up: "The game's T rating has nothing to do with the objections we have to some of his content. I can assure you that it isn't cursing and overall humorous bm that we are objective to. Racial and homophobic slurs are not something that most take lightly, regardless of the context. It's just not something we have ever tolerated as an organization, plain and simple. Steven not remaining in a contract has little, if anything, to do with his behavior on his stream though. He regretted signing a contract, as he expressed, but we were still willing to work with him. As it became apparent that he was not willing to participate in obligations such as name changes, blogging, setting up his stream, it was also apparent that he wouldn't be a part of the organization in the near future. We wanted to work with him to correct this, but as time progressed it was decided that it would be more beneficial to mutually part ways, with stream content only being factor that contributed to the announcement being sooner rather than later. Personally, I will continue to watch his stream and support what he does, as I want to see him succeed in providing for his family and having a successful life. I know it's hard to understand, but the decision by both parties to mutually terminate the contract was a business decision, not personal. It is obviously in the nature of the community to create friction where need not be. *Note: Contrary to popular belief, Steven was not asked to censor himself, but merely to tone down his use of racial and homophobic slurs. I can't see how everyone acts like we wanted to put duct tape over his mouth and insert a voice over post-edit. If you're in a workplace, odds are you don't talk like that, and before you say anything...YES, "pro-gamers" have a workplace and it's called Starcraft II." So he didn't want join with his mates because he wanted to still say some bad words. Is that right? Look, I like to curse as much as the next sailor, but c'mon... Destiny is a very principled person. He is not abandoning his friends and team. He is refusing to be censored by the team. You can look at his reasons as petty but many people have fought in many venues to receive and retain these rights which you dismiss. What in the world are you blabbering about? Who fought for what exactly? Are you kidding? If you've ever seen him on Weapon of Choice or SotG, he claims he's a very big believer in language being entirely contextual, and that words should not be offensive outside of an offensive context. Thus, he would not want to censor himself, it's not about the ease of dropping words or being immature, though some may see it that way. I actually disagree with him, while I agree with the contextual aspect and the responsibility being on the listener to deal with not being offended, I think it's not a big deal to remove some very specific words from your vocabulary, he's more stubborn in this regard in the belief that no words require censorship. No one is claiming he's trying to change the world or something stupid like that, he just doesn't believe it's his responsibility to edit his speech for people who are easily and in his opinion unnecessarily offended. Not related to what I said. It IS a big deal. Romiving some specific words out of your vocabulary might seem like a minor adjustment but it is not. Something stands behind this and behind this something also stands something and behind this something behind something also stands something - and making this "minor" adjustment means disregarding this something - and this something has to do with values. Values that deal with people caring about surface-level shit and making drama out of trivial and unimportant. Values that deal with this hipocrisy where you get 50 x times more flame/criticism for using some curse words (mostly because some people act like fucking automatons operating on a paradigm comparable to: "curse word detected" -> 'cursing is bad beliefs' - > "this guy is dumb/inappropiate/bad in whatever other way" - > "I need to criticise, ridicule or flame him because its bad to curse !") than for doing shit that actually really is bad and has significant negative consequences. So it is with some racist/homophobic stuff as well. PS. I don`t say this in regard to the team Complexity or anyone directly involved in this. I mean this in a general context that people are ridicilously overcaring about surface-level stuff like using curse words or saying some racist/homophobic stuff that really isn`t backed up by real racist or otherwise sick/destructive beliefs. Actually, people are not just ridicilously overcaring about this. They just don`t fucking understand shit or do not care about understanding it They either don`t even think about what they are talking about and why and about what they believe in or they do it out of some messed up egotic/egoistic desires.
Your post wasn't relevant either. There's a massive reading comprehension failure here, or something of that sort. I was addressing the guy who said
many people have fought in many venues to receive and retain these rights which you dismiss.
which is utter bullshit. You may say people have died for free speech issues; this is not a friggin' free speech issue. Just as there is no free speech on teamliquid. The government wasn't involved in this case, it was a corporation or whatever the hell complexity is wishing to part ways with Destiny.
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DESTINY I FUCKING LOVE YOU OMG
I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU
User was warned for this post
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I feel this is a situation which is way out of hand, he explained his reasons for his mistakes and that is much better than declining all negative assumptions on the lies for the reason he had left. I watch Destiny's stream often and am half black. I find the way he uses his language is not offensive in the slightest and wish him luck in the future, people also targeting his personal life? Get a grip you're way over your head.
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Meow.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Honestly.......Yes the guy made a mistake......But do we really have to go on like its our personal business and write 5 page essays about him? Jesus Christ maybe focus on your own personal problems
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On June 24 2011 06:58 Ninefall wrote:
Hmm so this is what all the bronze experts do all day.
hahahaha Meow?
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Why is everyone so mad?
Destiny signed with Complexity. Destiny decided to bounce. That's the end of that episode. His reasons and whether he did so with goodwill or intentional malice is a matter for them to be concerned about. Like, cool, you don't like him. Because he says things that are racist / homophobic / whatever. So what?
How does this affect you? Why does it drive you to rip apart not only Destiny but other fellow TLnet forum members in your self-righteous crusade?
This thread makes me sad as hell. It's like forty times worse than that kellymilkies shit, because it's not like he's even a caster of a tournament you have to watch. He's a guy supporting himself and a family by offering lessons and streaming. Nobody is making you watch that stream.
Come on, guys. We're better than this.
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Let me get this straight, this is a thread about clarifying why Destiny is not part of complexity gaming, right? It's not about bashing his beliefs and/or language...correct? And of course, it's not about glorifying him either, is it? ...so let's waste our time on something else, maybe? o3o
...
Wow, Destiny, way to go bro, you so popular people won't stop talking 'bout youu~
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Destiny,
As a member of the legal community, I do find it disheartening that you would sign a contract without thinking out the ramifications that such a decision would bring. However, I am also not blind to the idea that when a decision is at a deadline, many spur-of-the-moment decisions may take place.
Regardless. I got back into the SC community after a long break from RTS gaming. I found your stream early in the Beta process and was immediately brought back into the realm.
All of us are who we are. For better or worse. Destiny has been this way since I began watching, and I hope he stays that way. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but no one forces you to click his stream. There are a lot of comments in this tread on issues (even if true) that do not remotely relate to the issue at hand. I hope some of you never go into law, because using radical assumptions and misinformation is a quick way to be disbarred, nor is it a way to be a moral human.
Destiny, I wish you luck in whatever path you take with pro gaming. I will always be a follower of yours.
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I didn't see this coming lol. I was wondering why complexity's roster didn't have him listed as far as I can remember.
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United States527 Posts
On June 24 2011 07:14 Dayzed wrote:
Destiny,
As a member of the legal community, I do find it disheartening that you would sign a contract without thinking out the ramifications that such a decision would bring. However, I am also not blind to the idea that when a decision is at a deadline, many spur-of-the-moment decisions may take place.
Regardless. I got back into the SC community after a long break from RTS gaming. I found your stream early in the Beta process and was immediately brought back into the realm.
All of us are who we are. For better or worse. Destiny has been this way since I began watching, and I hope he stays that way. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but no one forces you to click his stream. There are a lot of comments in this tread on issues (even if true) that do not remotely relate to the issue at hand. I hope some of you never go into law, because using radical assumptions and misinformation is a quick way to be disbarred, nor is it a way to be a moral human.
Destiny, I wish you luck in whatever path you take with pro gaming. I will always be a follower of yours. And although I am not able to able to provide you with legal advice, I would be willing to help you with any other legal issues any way I can.
Well he didn't have time to think about the long term processes, he said in a recent forum post. He went with it so the rest of the team can go to complexity and not to ruin their chances at success with the organization. At least, that's what I got from the forum posts from Destiny.
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Hey hyperLimen you should skype him later I'm sure he'd be willing to talk to you.
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On June 23 2011 07:10 coL.edward wrote:
not sure why everyone is running to the defense of one side, it was a bad situation to begin with and both sides handled it as best as they could - some of the posts here are absolutely idiotic - people on both sides should get the full story before rushing into battle with their eyes closed
Complexity is a joke
overrated players: Huk Jinro Haypro Cruncher MC
the whole complexity team is a bunch of cheesers they suck and it is a wonder they call themselves play. in the real world anyone that is as bad at their job as they are ^^^ or the teamliquid staff would be fired
User was temp banned for this post.
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I must say, I find a lot of the people trashing steven rather hypocritical. Sure he's outspoken and opinionated, uses "bad" language and may or may not have any number of character deficiencies, but he is not a flaming unreasoning bigot on any topic that I've heard him talk. I don't awlays agree with him but I can respect him for his reasoning and arguments. It is rather incomprehensible to me why so many people what to sterilize a completely new entertainment channel like online streaming by introducing some sort of imaginary and self-imposed "industry standards" for behavior, language and whatever. Especially since it's language most people use every day. Should the "BLEEP" be introduced to jtv now? I enjoy steven's stream because I can put it in the background while I'm working and it's the same stupid or serious shit I talk about with my friends. Gives me a sense of closeness if you will, even when I don't watch the games.
E-sports really need more players like him. Not because he is a brilliant player, his is rather average as players go. But he does explore a lot more of what the internet streams as a media provide than most other players. If it is all about the games e-sports will never move beyond a target audience of post-adolescent nerds.
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I think Complexity's reaction to Destiny's personality makes no sense at all. You have to assume that they knew the player that they were getting when he came over with ROOT, and if that is true then they must have realized that his talent as a player was worth the personality. It's also interesting that in their statement they talk about his controversial or "polarizing" comments, yet whenever I watched coL (with ROOT) play together on his stream they were all giving each other crap about everything. Obviously it was jokingly, but everyone was being bm and talking shit so I don't see why they choose to single out Destiny for this reason.
His performance in tournaments has been disappointing, but he is really just starting to get comfortable with the big tournament scene. He just got GM a couple weeks ago and has improved his game to a new level in a matter of months. I think he would be a great pick up for any team as he will continue to get better and better, especially in tournaments once he gets more comfortable with them. The skill is a bigger factor than the personality imo, for example Idra? I know Destiny isn't as good as Idra, but the fact remains that EG was willing to get a great player despite him being known as a bad mannered person.
Just my .02, good luck to Destiny and I will continue to watch his stream with or without a team. BTW why does everyone bash on Destiny's stream viewers...at least he engages his viewers and has fun with it unlike several other high level players I know of.
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EPT
