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It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned. |
On June 24 2011 09:55 UniversalMind wrote:
I bet steven feels like eminem when EM called some black women the B word and the African community jumped on him and demanded an apology, where the average rap video uses the word millions of times in different contexts.
I'm black and watch stevens stream everyday and prob hear the N word more from my on peers then steven, personally the internet IMO is immature in ways some people can not possibly comprehend. No community person or culture RL, net, w/e is perfect he does his on thing on his stream no one makes you watch. He has stated hes not a starcraft community superhero, leave the dude alone lol
honestly, ive been watching so long i have never heard him use the n-word other than when hes arguing about language, etc.
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fascinating how much attention this is getting from you guys...is it really that big of a deal? i don't even think steven cares this much! goes to show how popular the guy is i guess...
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dunno all im saying is there is so much more stuff you can nit pick on in the world that is messed up then a guy on his private stream screaming out the N word when hes angry. the guy doesnt pretend anything hes vocal about everything and anything hes says has weight to it
what I find funny is people dont understand the any publicity is good publicity, you hate the dude and complain about it on sites and stuff you just make him more popular. if you dont like him and hes not going out of his way to hunt you down just to offend you leave him be that hurts him more then giving him publicity
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I love you destiny, thanks for stickin to your guns bro. I feel that big time corporations are ruining sc2 competitive gaming with their big prizes and their advertisements. Buy Moar. Gamers first and not sellouts! Soon players will realize that alot of their favourite players are just big time sellouts and don't really care about their fanbase etc. Like debo said, you have more fans than any other gamer out there, don't trade that for anything
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oh hey guys let me waste everyone's time and brain cells by typing a paragraph of text hating on someone completely unrelated to me, just to get people riled up.
i mean, seriously? give it a rest. this shouldn't have even been posted in the public domain. this is between coL and destiny, not coL, destiny, and the entire star2 community. this gives me further evidence that 90% of the people watching star2 games these days are in it for the drama, with threads about the guy's GF cheating on him with pros and this shit being so popular, it's a disgrace to the scene.
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Australia8532 Posts
Well that's unfortunate because he was certainly a good personality to have around the scene. Obviously we don't know the details of the agreement, but if there was nothing -too- objectionable about it then it seems odd. I'm not a fan of the "big evil corporations" taking over the world theory, so i hope it was not that. Either way, no-one should have to compromise on what they believe, so good luck in the future Destiny.
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On June 24 2011 10:01 Mallard86 wrote:Show nested quote +
which is utter bullshit. You may say people have died for free speech issues; this is not a friggin' free speech issue. Just as there is no free speech on teamliquid. The government wasn't involved in this case, it was a corporation or whatever the hell complexity is wishing to part ways with Destiny.
I dont know the terms of the contract. What I do know is that CoL was insisting that Destiny modify his speech (restricting) in a location outside of the boundaries of the CoL organization. Any private entity has the right to restrict speech within their boundaries. They do not have the right to restrict speech outside of their boundaries. Im guessing there was some code of conduct clause within the contract which Destiny did sign which did give them the right to demand Destiny modify his speech while representing team CoL or be in breach of contract. Im guessing the terms covered his stream as a venue from which he would be representing the team so legally I guess they had the right to restrict his speech in that area. What I do know of Destiny is that any restriction in his rights would not sit well with him. Its incredibly important.
No, you can most definitely fire someone even if there's no clause. It's called being unprofessional. You don't think that if you go out to the bars with your boss, get totally hammered and tell him you think he's a piece of shit, etc. that he can't fire you? Well, he can.
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No, you can most definitely fire someone even if there's no clause. It's called being unprofessional. You don't think that if you go out to the bars with your boss, get totally hammered and tell him you think he's a piece of shit, etc. that he can't fire you? Well, he can.
A more appropriate analogy would be if you got totally hammered and told your brother in law he was a piece of shit and your boss, who is not related to you or your brother in law, fired you.
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On June 23 2011 05:42 iNcontroL wrote:
this translates to me as a refusal to do normal team stuff like blog, post on site etc.. am I wrong?
In any regard I like destiny >_< wish he'd value community/teams more though.. he could grow as a player!
This and also the shock value associated with his stream. I dont think any proffesional organization would ever support him. Too much bad publicity. Seems like he doesnt care though so thats good.
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On June 24 2011 07:45 rewsky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 07:30 CptCombat wrote:
I actually love how this turned into such a big deal. I mean honestly, the man joined coL and never seemed too excited about it. As a result, things fell through for both parties. Steven has explained his actions and coL explained their actions, does all this random BM have to be applied? To all the idiots flaming Steven for prejudice (highlighting racial) remarks; can you please shut up and possibly watch the guys stream before passing hearsay judgement. I'll say it, I am African-American, and I fucking love Steven's stream. If anything on the stream is prejudiced it's mild and/or in context with a topic, statement, or analogy. Yes, some of the material is a bit mature, but he publicizes this on his stream (you know that button you click to enter the material marked as Mature 18+ Content...yea...that one). The man is a well practiced Starcraft player and a pretty witty person, albeit a bit vulgar, but in no way is he ignorant or prejudice. So, can the back and forth nerd bashing stop, its unnecessary. Good luck to Steven and good luck to coL; it's a shame things didn't work out. Flippant use of the N word is indicative of a certain level of ignorance, and at the bare minimum shows a lack of sympathy and consideration for other human beings. I can drop rape jokes around a friend that's been sexually assaulted like rain falling from the sky, but it's still a shitty thing to do. Just because you're African American doesn't really give any credence to your argument - that's just an appeal to authority. I've known plenty of women that laugh at and love misogynistic comments, or plenty of self-hating homosexuals that don't think they have a right to marriage.
Words are a tricky and can mean something different to everyone. It's much deeper than just understanding it offends some people, you really have to get into why. What is right and wrong in American society is largely based on perceived power and the abuse of power. For example, a man is perceived in American society as more powerful than a woman, therefore when a woman makes fun of a man, no one takes second notice, it is the weak making fun of the powerful. If a man makes fun of a woman, it is seen as an abuse of power and the man taking advantage of the woman who cannot defend herself. The real issue is with the perceptions, not with the words themselves. I would actually consider Destiny one of the least racist/sexist people I have ever seen in the media due to his discussion on the word. Most people won't even say the "n-word" even in the most non-racist context imaginable: discussing the issue of the word or talking about history, reading a book, or quoting someone else. Not using the word even in those context is indicative of a irrational fear that you are being racist and a lack of integrity. If you know you don't have any bad intention you shouldn't fear using the word in what can be a positive way, by addressing the issue. I would have used the word above but I know this post would be removed in this circumstance where use is clearly against the rules.
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On June 24 2011 10:27 squrl wrote:
I love you destiny, thanks for stickin to your guns bro. I feel that big time corporations are ruining sc2 competitive gaming with their big prizes and their advertisements. Buy Moar. Gamers first and not sellouts! Soon players will realize that alot of their favourite players are just big time sellouts and don't really care about their fanbase etc. Like debo said, you have more fans than any other gamer out there, don't trade that for anything
Spoken like a true hipster. 
I don't know this dude nor have i ever checked his stream, but if his stream/real life behavior can cause this big of a stir in the community then there is obviously something wrong. If you want to be called a SC2 Pro, you should act professionally. It goes for any professional sport out there. This guy isn't a pro and isn't well known so I really don't care how he acts on his stream, but if he becomes a really good sc2 player, he should learn to keep some of his immature behavior to himself.
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On June 24 2011 11:53 Nflguy33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 10:27 squrl wrote:
I love you destiny, thanks for stickin to your guns bro. I feel that big time corporations are ruining sc2 competitive gaming with their big prizes and their advertisements. Buy Moar. Gamers first and not sellouts! Soon players will realize that alot of their favourite players are just big time sellouts and don't really care about their fanbase etc. Like debo said, you have more fans than any other gamer out there, don't trade that for anything Spoken like a true hipster. I don't know this dude nor have i ever checked his stream, but if his stream/real life behavior can cause this big of a stir in the community then there is obviously something wrong. If you want to be called a SC2 Pro, you should act professionally. It goes for any professional sport out there. This guy isn't a pro and isn't well known so I really don't care how he acts on his stream, but if he becomes a really good sc2 player, he should learn to keep some of his immature behavior to himself.
The only thing that really causes a stir from him is saying that people are wrong to be offended by simple words without context. When he applies this to words such as "faggot" and "nigger" stupid people get pissed off and stupider people assume he constantly mindlessly says those words.
If he gets really good why should he act "professionally"? How would it benefit him? Maybe his actions won't lend himself to sponsors but if he is fine with stream income and in this hypothetical situation, tournament winnings, why would he conform to your definition of professional? If your advise doesn't benefit him there is no reason he should follow it, even if it makes "e-sports" (which plenty of TL users seem to have a weird obsession with it's success) "look bad".
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On June 24 2011 11:53 Nflguy33 wrote:
I don't know this dude nor have i ever checked his stream, but if his stream/real life behavior can cause this big of a stir in the community then there is obviously something wrong. If you want to be called a SC2 Pro, you should act professionally. It goes for any professional sport out there. This guy isn't a pro and isn't well known so I really don't care how he acts on his stream, but if he becomes a really good sc2 player, he should learn to keep some of his immature behavior to himself.
Why would you comment on this if you don't know him and don't watch his stream? I mean, you cant know the situation and you obviously don't know the people involved. I understand your general statement about manner and such but I don't agree with you completely. If you listen to Destiny on his stream he will curse and he will rant. But, in my opinion, most of his rants are legitimate and well thought out. I'm not a "fanboy" nor do I support/dislike Destiny but I do watch his stream a lot because he is one of the few people professional SC2 players who streams regularly.
Also, if you don't like his attitude don't watch his stream! I don't understand why coL would sign him if they didn't agree with how he acted. He isn't exactly shy...so they should have known what they were getting into. It's like when the Bulls got Rodman, do you honestly think they thought he would be normal suddenly?
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Destiny is one of those pros that is there to feed the big dogs. you know like Nascar has 40 cars in the field and Bonnell would be one of those guys who is always in the back fighting for 33rd spot. A necessary thing for a tournament but not really a player teams would highly covet except to fill a roster spot.
His $$$ future is probably streaming and casting.
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On June 24 2011 11:30 AngelusDeLetum wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 05:42 iNcontroL wrote:
this translates to me as a refusal to do normal team stuff like blog, post on site etc.. am I wrong?
In any regard I like destiny >_< wish he'd value community/teams more though.. he could grow as a player! This and also the shock value associated with his stream. I dont think any proffesional organization would ever support him. Too much bad publicity. Seems like he doesnt care though so thats good.
Wait... where is the shock value in his stream? Saying fuck?
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Destiny's attitude holds him back and will continue to remain at his current skill level until he get's on an actual serious team. He looks like an adult, but acts like a child. Best of luck to coL, love jason lake! #1 for life
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On June 24 2011 12:19 Romble wrote:
Destiny is one of those pros that is there to feed the big dogs. you know like Nascar has 40 cars in the field and Bonnell would be one of those guys who is always in the back fighting for 33rd spot. A necessary thing for a tournament but not really a player teams would highly covet except to fill a roster spot.
His $$$ future is probably streaming and casting.
Thats an awesome analogy, and it made me lol, so kudos to you sir.
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On June 24 2011 11:48 cliiide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 07:45 rewsky wrote:On June 24 2011 07:30 CptCombat wrote:
I actually love how this turned into such a big deal. I mean honestly, the man joined coL and never seemed too excited about it. As a result, things fell through for both parties. Steven has explained his actions and coL explained their actions, does all this random BM have to be applied? To all the idiots flaming Steven for prejudice (highlighting racial) remarks; can you please shut up and possibly watch the guys stream before passing hearsay judgement. I'll say it, I am African-American, and I fucking love Steven's stream. If anything on the stream is prejudiced it's mild and/or in context with a topic, statement, or analogy. Yes, some of the material is a bit mature, but he publicizes this on his stream (you know that button you click to enter the material marked as Mature 18+ Content...yea...that one). The man is a well practiced Starcraft player and a pretty witty person, albeit a bit vulgar, but in no way is he ignorant or prejudice. So, can the back and forth nerd bashing stop, its unnecessary. Good luck to Steven and good luck to coL; it's a shame things didn't work out. Flippant use of the N word is indicative of a certain level of ignorance, and at the bare minimum shows a lack of sympathy and consideration for other human beings. I can drop rape jokes around a friend that's been sexually assaulted like rain falling from the sky, but it's still a shitty thing to do. Just because you're African American doesn't really give any credence to your argument - that's just an appeal to authority. I've known plenty of women that laugh at and love misogynistic comments, or plenty of self-hating homosexuals that don't think they have a right to marriage. Words are a tricky and can mean something different to everyone. It's much deeper than just understanding it offends some people, you really have to get into why. What is right and wrong in American society is largely based on perceived power and the abuse of power. For example, a man is perceived in American society as more powerful than a woman, therefore when a woman makes fun of a man, no one takes second notice, it is the weak making fun of the powerful. If a man makes fun of a woman, it is seen as an abuse of power and the man taking advantage of the woman who cannot defend herself. The real issue is with the perceptions, not with the words themselves. I would actually consider Destiny one of the least racist/sexist people I have ever seen in the media due to his discussion on the word. Most people won't even say the "n-word" even in the most non-racist context imaginable: discussing the issue of the word or talking about history, reading a book, or quoting someone else. Not using the word even in those context is indicative of a irrational fear that you are being racist and a lack of integrity. If you know you don't have any bad intention you shouldn't fear using the word in what can be a positive way, by addressing the issue. I would have used the word above but I know this post would be removed in this circumstance where use is clearly against the rules.
Thanks for the reasonable and calm response - it's refreshing not to get snark handed back to me.
I believe that when you say "perceptions," you mean cultural bias and social constructions. For instance, due to gender norms, people assume that men are more aggressive and they ultimately are more aggressive than women, but the question is why? One of the reasons is because of gender norms and social construction - when little boys act out, the phrase "boys will be boys" is often used. When little girls act out, they are told to be more lady like, consequently pushing one gender to meekness and the other to a more outspoken disposition.
Other variables contribute to a gap between genders - the double standard when it comes to sex...women are expected to be sexy, but not sexual. If a man sleeps around he's a player, if a woman sleeps around she's a whore. These labels are tossed around under a patriarchal system - a system where male characteristics and behaviors are held on a pedestal, and female characteristics are not.
Whether Destiny is racist or not - Don't honestly know. From what I've watched of him (and I do enjoy watching his stream) he isn't. However, I'd probably have more respect for someone who simply had the word in their vocabulary and unconsciously used it here and there. For instance, the word Faggot was in my vocab for years and years until I consciously made an effort to minimize its use. I didn't mean to hurt feelings using it (in this case, the context), however I recognized how hurtful the word was, and made efforts to remove it from my vocabulary because there's more articulate options in my opinion.
I think as you said - it's quite ridiculous when people can't use the N word when talking about history or having an earnest and frank discussion about it. For instance, removing the N word from huckleberry finn was a huge mistake, as it robs the work of its power. I think confronting the brutality and dehumanization of racism is softened in that book when the word is removed.
But I think just flippantly using it (and yes, talking with friends and using the n word repeatedly counts as flippant) is a mistake. I also think it's a sign of immaturity when a white person uses it flippantly since the term was used for hundreds of years to reinforce white vs. black subjugation. I find it a little less problematic between minorities only because the power dynamic wasn't as absurdly one sided (although if you look at the use of the n word historically, you'll notice that at one point it was used by upper class blacks to degrade lower class blacks).
I completely understand your frustration. I think it's ridiculous if people are afraid to use the word when having a discussion about it or history. But I think dropping it, and other historically loaded words flippantly is unnecessary and hazardous.
If words didn't matter or have power, we wouldn't study them and use them to our advantage. What you say (the word) and when you say it (the context) are truly important - and what I'm arguing is that what he says (the n word) and when he says it (the context) may not make him racist, but it certainly shows a lack of respect for the word and the history of subjugation between whites and blacks in this country.
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I don't understand why discussion started on big evil corporations, but you guys have to understand that as a company you hold every person accountable. Destiny even said himself that it wasn't a good fit and he felt no ill will towards complexity. If complexity truly wanted him to change his dialogue they have that right, just as much as Destiny has to decline the offer.
When you are being paid or sponsored by a company, you follow their rules. They can set the rules, and you can choose whether or not to accept them.
As far as language Destiny can do whatever he wants. It's his right. Whether or not his approach to speaking to his audience is immature or unintelligent is up for the community to decide. And guess what, he regularly hits over 4000 viewers so I don't think too many people have issues with his decision to be who he is.
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Northern Ireland23826 Posts
Personally I find some of the comments in this thread to be disgraceful, but luckily interspersed here and there are some decent and coherent points.
I'm a fan of the guy but I can understand people having a problem with his stream and his personality in that. What that doesn't allow in my book is people making personal attacks on the guy, claiming with no supporting evidence that he's a bad father and various other slurs. I don't see how people avoid bans for this, I really don't. I'm no fanboy but such vitriol is not acceptable.
His sort of material may well attract it's fair share of idiots, but I have yet to see any evidence presented that he is an idiot, a racist or any of the tags that he's been attracting here. He's a guy who gets a lot of heat, but I haven't seen him hide or dodge the issue. His appearance on SoTG was interesting and his debates on the language issue with Day9 et al were pretty illuminating as to his mindset
I also fully understand and agree with Complexity's stance on the issue. They were fully within their rights to do what they did, indeed they were also within their rights to enforce the contract the guy signed, but I feel they showed some restraint.
I'm not some whiner complaining about the influence of sponsors and whatever they have to do to maintain their corporate image. It is, however somewhat strange to me that massive multinationals drop sports stars for infidelity but have no qualms about flagrantly exploiting the developing world. I don't know I just feel people have their priorities wrong when it comes to these kinds of issues. Similarly in the world of politics, a politician can be as corrupt as they come and in the pocket of vested interests, but this isn't a problem until something goes wrong with his PRIVATE life? People make far too big a deal about things such as bad language, romantic relationships while ignoring the actual IMPORTANT issues.
Destiny is his own guy, an entertaining view (indeed he's the only streamer that my non-SC2 playing friends actually watch), but he's under no obligation to serve the community or to maintain his image and he has said that in the past.
Good luck to both parties in the future
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EPT
