|
These threads do not help at all, they state the obvious while everyone just says its balancy. I honestly do not know what the OP is looking for, there are two possible answers:
1) Bad players
2) Imbalancy
If it is the first one, this thread is pointless. If it is the second one, it just turns into another rant thread. I do not see the point of why moderators let this thread stay open, the reasons are obvious.
Oh your question was what do we think?
Protoss Players: Imbalanced
Zerg and Terrans: Lol Protoss ez race, bad players, good deal for once!
Not being biased at all, if you do not believe me scroll through the comments while looking at the race portraits.
Protoss is so bad all they can do is get second place in the last GSL, or get 1st,3rd and 4th in the previous one.
.. apparently now if Protoss isn't winning absolutely everything they're UP
~Terran Player
+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2011 04:29 darmousseh wrote:
There are a # of problems protoss has which makes them weak in certain situations.
1. Protoss units can't retreat.
One of the major advantages of blink stalkers and collosus is that you can retreat with them, but zealots, immortals, void rays and to some extent HT and archons cannot retreat fast enough. if a terran is losing a battle, they can stim and run away. Zerg units are so fast they can just sprint away. Other than stalkers and collosus, once a protoss engages, they must commit or else be willing to lose all of their zealots. This was the problem with archons, but that changed in the patch. Marauders and infestors don't help the situation either.
2. Protoss can reinforce too quickly.
When blizzard did balancing, they needed to consider the effect of reinforcement on the balance. Because protoss can warp in, the units are weaker by a large margin.
3. High dependance on spell casters and high dps units Terran can win games with marines and marauders only. Once terran has stim, protoss needs sentries (for guardian shields and forcefields), collosus (to do dps) or HT, and blink/charge and all high dps units from protoss are easily counterable. (vikings against collosus, ghosts against HT, concussive shells against charge/blink). If protoss wants to win, they need to win every single engagement.
4. No area controlling units. Dark templar can be considered area controlling to a tiny extent, but only lasts a short time. Tanks for terran, banelings and infestors for zerg, protoss literally has nothing. At one time, protoss could hold a position by having a pylon and being able to warp in a high templar with kydarian amulet, but no more. There is no risk advancing into a protoss base. This is the biggest reason why protoss is always in a ball.
5. Highly limited tech choice This somewhat opened up with the recent changes to archon, but most air builds are almost autolosses and warp prism play offers very limited reward with high risks. Obviously protoss hasn't explored EVERY single option, but it's not due to a lack of trying.
6. The cost of scouting is too high. A terran can scout with reapers or scans at almost any moment, a zerg can send an overlord , but a protoss must choose a specific tech pattern and sacrifice tech choices in order to scout. If the protoss gets hallucination, then that's 2 less forcefields and less tech. If the protoss gets an obs, that's 200m/100g followed by 25m/75g. And scouting makes protoss SUPER vulnerable to a fast timing attack. I think protoss need to get that super fast immortal to be safe followed by a chrono'd observer in order to be safe against dt builds, banshee builds, and burrowed roach. My guess is that blizzard designed protoss to always get a fast robo every game (considering all of the units like immortals, observers, and warp prisms), but the truth is that the investment makes it difficult to choose another tech path if you scout something that robo is not good against. Zerg can scout with a lair (a natural part of their tech path) and terran can scout with scans or reapers (a very natural part of the tech path). I still think this is something that can be explored. Maybe hallucination first builds or something would really go a long way to help out. Maybe 1 gate robo is the build of the future, something to be considered. This however I believe is the #1 problem protoss currently has.
I'm not saying protoss is UP, they still win a lot of games and each race has it's own problems, but that the problems for protoss make it difficult to show consistent results mostly because of the scouting problem. Naniwa did 4 gates in order to be the agressor (in which case you don't really need early scouting), but as 4 gates got nerfed, naniwa's build got weaker and I think MLG will show the results of the most recent patch.
~Protoss Player, see what I mean now?
if you look at results only it looks bad. but if you watched the games, they played horribly.
Zerg Player
|
My primary frustration with Protoss is the weakness of the Stargate path. Robo tech has always been strong, with utility units (Obs/Prism), a stop-gap unit (Immortal) in case you need quick meat, and a powerful capstone (Colossus). Templar tech (DT/HT) is a little messier, but between Warpgates, Feedback, and the recent Archon buff, is quite reasonable and threatening.
Stargates, by contrast, have two legitimate but very gas-expensive units, and nothing else. It's cheap to get +1 Air Weapons, but the defensive upgrades are insanely overpriced, and the Fleet Beacon does nothing for the two units you're actually going to use (since Mothership/Carrier are slow/expensive/weak/low DPS-per-supply) except unlock +2 and +3 air.
Put Tier 3 Protoss Air back into Starcraft, and you'll see some proper variety IMO. (Note: making Robo or Citadel tech paths imba will cover this problem up, but not fix it.)
On June 04 2011 08:40 Catch]22 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 08:37 leecH wrote:On June 04 2011 08:31 Erasme wrote:
Did one of you (toss) ever tried to drop templars ?
I ask a friend of mine (top eu master). He never did, because it's 'useless'. Same for Dark templars. As a zerg player, I love when a toss sticks to an outdated style and QQ after being crushed into oblivion. sure man i make a nonstatic pylon. then i fly it to an expansion. there i unload my templar. i give him a hustler magazine and a couple of beers so he is not bored while waiting for his mojo to go up. after 25 minutes my templar could storm the shit out of the workerline but he felt asleep.. stupid templars have no work ethic. socke used alot of templar warpins but since amulet is removed you cant warp them im and instantly storm. so you talking about outdated styles while playing outdated styles. yo dawg. Funny how people managed to stormdrop in Sc1, but its impossible in sc2 because of no Khaydarin ???????????????
Funny how Storm in Sc1 did more damage in a larger area, and it was more difficult to evacuate a mineral line due to the 12-unit selection limit???????????????
|
On June 04 2011 09:21 Severedevil wrote:My primary frustration with Protoss is the weakness of the Stargate path. Robo tech has always been strong, with utility units (Obs/Prism), a stop-gap unit (Immortal) in case you need quick meat, and a powerful capstone (Colossus). Templar tech (DT/HT) is a little messier, but between Warpgates, Feedback, and the recent Archon buff, is quite reasonable and threatening. Stargates, by contrast, have two legitimate but very gas-expensive units, and nothing else. It's cheap to get +1 Air Weapons, but the defensive upgrades are insanely overpriced, and the Fleet Beacon does nothing for the two units you're actually going to use (since Mothership/Carrier are slow/expensive/weak/low DPS-per-supply) except unlock +2 and +3 air. Put Tier 3 Protoss Air back into Starcraft, and you'll see some proper variety IMO. (Note: making Robo or Citadel tech paths imba will cover this problem up, but not fix it.) Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 08:40 Catch]22 wrote:On June 04 2011 08:37 leecH wrote:On June 04 2011 08:31 Erasme wrote:
Did one of you (toss) ever tried to drop templars ?
I ask a friend of mine (top eu master). He never did, because it's 'useless'. Same for Dark templars. As a zerg player, I love when a toss sticks to an outdated style and QQ after being crushed into oblivion. sure man i make a nonstatic pylon. then i fly it to an expansion. there i unload my templar. i give him a hustler magazine and a couple of beers so he is not bored while waiting for his mojo to go up. after 25 minutes my templar could storm the shit out of the workerline but he felt asleep.. stupid templars have no work ethic. socke used alot of templar warpins but since amulet is removed you cant warp them im and instantly storm. so you talking about outdated styles while playing outdated styles. yo dawg. Funny how people managed to stormdrop in Sc1, but its impossible in sc2 because of no Khaydarin ??????????????? Funny how Storm in Sc1 did more damage in a larger area, and it was more difficult to evacuate a mineral line due to the 12-unit selection limit??????????????? Actually SC2 storm does more DPS. You're welcome.
|
On June 04 2011 09:25 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 09:21 Severedevil wrote:My primary frustration with Protoss is the weakness of the Stargate path. Robo tech has always been strong, with utility units (Obs/Prism), a stop-gap unit (Immortal) in case you need quick meat, and a powerful capstone (Colossus). Templar tech (DT/HT) is a little messier, but between Warpgates, Feedback, and the recent Archon buff, is quite reasonable and threatening. Stargates, by contrast, have two legitimate but very gas-expensive units, and nothing else. It's cheap to get +1 Air Weapons, but the defensive upgrades are insanely overpriced, and the Fleet Beacon does nothing for the two units you're actually going to use (since Mothership/Carrier are slow/expensive/weak/low DPS-per-supply) except unlock +2 and +3 air. Put Tier 3 Protoss Air back into Starcraft, and you'll see some proper variety IMO. (Note: making Robo or Citadel tech paths imba will cover this problem up, but not fix it.) On June 04 2011 08:40 Catch]22 wrote:On June 04 2011 08:37 leecH wrote:On June 04 2011 08:31 Erasme wrote:
Did one of you (toss) ever tried to drop templars ?
I ask a friend of mine (top eu master). He never did, because it's 'useless'. Same for Dark templars. As a zerg player, I love when a toss sticks to an outdated style and QQ after being crushed into oblivion. sure man i make a nonstatic pylon. then i fly it to an expansion. there i unload my templar. i give him a hustler magazine and a couple of beers so he is not bored while waiting for his mojo to go up. after 25 minutes my templar could storm the shit out of the workerline but he felt asleep.. stupid templars have no work ethic. socke used alot of templar warpins but since amulet is removed you cant warp them im and instantly storm. so you talking about outdated styles while playing outdated styles. yo dawg. Funny how people managed to stormdrop in Sc1, but its impossible in sc2 because of no Khaydarin ??????????????? Funny how Storm in Sc1 did more damage in a larger area, and it was more difficult to evacuate a mineral line due to the 12-unit selection limit??????????????? Actually SC2 storm does more DPS. You're welcome.
112 (scbw) vs 80 (sc2)
|
On June 04 2011 09:25 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 09:21 Severedevil wrote:My primary frustration with Protoss is the weakness of the Stargate path. Robo tech has always been strong, with utility units (Obs/Prism), a stop-gap unit (Immortal) in case you need quick meat, and a powerful capstone (Colossus). Templar tech (DT/HT) is a little messier, but between Warpgates, Feedback, and the recent Archon buff, is quite reasonable and threatening. Stargates, by contrast, have two legitimate but very gas-expensive units, and nothing else. It's cheap to get +1 Air Weapons, but the defensive upgrades are insanely overpriced, and the Fleet Beacon does nothing for the two units you're actually going to use (since Mothership/Carrier are slow/expensive/weak/low DPS-per-supply) except unlock +2 and +3 air. Put Tier 3 Protoss Air back into Starcraft, and you'll see some proper variety IMO. (Note: making Robo or Citadel tech paths imba will cover this problem up, but not fix it.) On June 04 2011 08:40 Catch]22 wrote:On June 04 2011 08:37 leecH wrote:On June 04 2011 08:31 Erasme wrote:
Did one of you (toss) ever tried to drop templars ?
I ask a friend of mine (top eu master). He never did, because it's 'useless'. Same for Dark templars. As a zerg player, I love when a toss sticks to an outdated style and QQ after being crushed into oblivion. sure man i make a nonstatic pylon. then i fly it to an expansion. there i unload my templar. i give him a hustler magazine and a couple of beers so he is not bored while waiting for his mojo to go up. after 25 minutes my templar could storm the shit out of the workerline but he felt asleep.. stupid templars have no work ethic. socke used alot of templar warpins but since amulet is removed you cant warp them im and instantly storm. so you talking about outdated styles while playing outdated styles. yo dawg. Funny how people managed to stormdrop in Sc1, but its impossible in sc2 because of no Khaydarin ??????????????? Funny how Storm in Sc1 did more damage in a larger area, and it was more difficult to evacuate a mineral line due to the 12-unit selection limit??????????????? Actually SC2 storm does more DPS. You're welcome.
SC2 storm has slightly higher dps, but much less damage, in a much smaller area, and yeah, the 12 unit selection limit is important too so...maybe lose the "you're welcome." Even if you had a point, it's not nice.
|
On June 04 2011 09:28 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 09:25 Mercury- wrote:On June 04 2011 09:21 Severedevil wrote:My primary frustration with Protoss is the weakness of the Stargate path. Robo tech has always been strong, with utility units (Obs/Prism), a stop-gap unit (Immortal) in case you need quick meat, and a powerful capstone (Colossus). Templar tech (DT/HT) is a little messier, but between Warpgates, Feedback, and the recent Archon buff, is quite reasonable and threatening. Stargates, by contrast, have two legitimate but very gas-expensive units, and nothing else. It's cheap to get +1 Air Weapons, but the defensive upgrades are insanely overpriced, and the Fleet Beacon does nothing for the two units you're actually going to use (since Mothership/Carrier are slow/expensive/weak/low DPS-per-supply) except unlock +2 and +3 air. Put Tier 3 Protoss Air back into Starcraft, and you'll see some proper variety IMO. (Note: making Robo or Citadel tech paths imba will cover this problem up, but not fix it.) On June 04 2011 08:40 Catch]22 wrote:On June 04 2011 08:37 leecH wrote:On June 04 2011 08:31 Erasme wrote:
Did one of you (toss) ever tried to drop templars ?
I ask a friend of mine (top eu master). He never did, because it's 'useless'. Same for Dark templars. As a zerg player, I love when a toss sticks to an outdated style and QQ after being crushed into oblivion. sure man i make a nonstatic pylon. then i fly it to an expansion. there i unload my templar. i give him a hustler magazine and a couple of beers so he is not bored while waiting for his mojo to go up. after 25 minutes my templar could storm the shit out of the workerline but he felt asleep.. stupid templars have no work ethic. socke used alot of templar warpins but since amulet is removed you cant warp them im and instantly storm. so you talking about outdated styles while playing outdated styles. yo dawg. Funny how people managed to stormdrop in Sc1, but its impossible in sc2 because of no Khaydarin ??????????????? Funny how Storm in Sc1 did more damage in a larger area, and it was more difficult to evacuate a mineral line due to the 12-unit selection limit??????????????? Actually SC2 storm does more DPS. You're welcome. 112 (scbw) vs 80 (sc2)
... do you know what DPS means?
|
On June 04 2011 09:28 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 09:25 Mercury- wrote:On June 04 2011 09:21 Severedevil wrote:My primary frustration with Protoss is the weakness of the Stargate path. Robo tech has always been strong, with utility units (Obs/Prism), a stop-gap unit (Immortal) in case you need quick meat, and a powerful capstone (Colossus). Templar tech (DT/HT) is a little messier, but between Warpgates, Feedback, and the recent Archon buff, is quite reasonable and threatening. Stargates, by contrast, have two legitimate but very gas-expensive units, and nothing else. It's cheap to get +1 Air Weapons, but the defensive upgrades are insanely overpriced, and the Fleet Beacon does nothing for the two units you're actually going to use (since Mothership/Carrier are slow/expensive/weak/low DPS-per-supply) except unlock +2 and +3 air. Put Tier 3 Protoss Air back into Starcraft, and you'll see some proper variety IMO. (Note: making Robo or Citadel tech paths imba will cover this problem up, but not fix it.) On June 04 2011 08:40 Catch]22 wrote:On June 04 2011 08:37 leecH wrote:On June 04 2011 08:31 Erasme wrote:
Did one of you (toss) ever tried to drop templars ?
I ask a friend of mine (top eu master). He never did, because it's 'useless'. Same for Dark templars. As a zerg player, I love when a toss sticks to an outdated style and QQ after being crushed into oblivion. sure man i make a nonstatic pylon. then i fly it to an expansion. there i unload my templar. i give him a hustler magazine and a couple of beers so he is not bored while waiting for his mojo to go up. after 25 minutes my templar could storm the shit out of the workerline but he felt asleep.. stupid templars have no work ethic. socke used alot of templar warpins but since amulet is removed you cant warp them im and instantly storm. so you talking about outdated styles while playing outdated styles. yo dawg. Funny how people managed to stormdrop in Sc1, but its impossible in sc2 because of no Khaydarin ??????????????? Funny how Storm in Sc1 did more damage in a larger area, and it was more difficult to evacuate a mineral line due to the 12-unit selection limit??????????????? Actually SC2 storm does more DPS. You're welcome. SC2 storm has slightly higher dps, but much less damage, in a much smaller area, and yeah, the 12 unit selection limit is important too so...maybe lose the "you're welcome." Even if you had a point, it's not nice.
Lets just call it even, though the StarCraft 2 storm has higher DPS (Drones have 40 HP, the 120 thing isn't important), the area of effect takes it away since they can avoid the damage faster. So we call it even ok, though Warp Prisms < Shuttles.
|
On June 04 2011 09:30 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 09:28 IVN wrote:On June 04 2011 09:25 Mercury- wrote:On June 04 2011 09:21 Severedevil wrote:My primary frustration with Protoss is the weakness of the Stargate path. Robo tech has always been strong, with utility units (Obs/Prism), a stop-gap unit (Immortal) in case you need quick meat, and a powerful capstone (Colossus). Templar tech (DT/HT) is a little messier, but between Warpgates, Feedback, and the recent Archon buff, is quite reasonable and threatening. Stargates, by contrast, have two legitimate but very gas-expensive units, and nothing else. It's cheap to get +1 Air Weapons, but the defensive upgrades are insanely overpriced, and the Fleet Beacon does nothing for the two units you're actually going to use (since Mothership/Carrier are slow/expensive/weak/low DPS-per-supply) except unlock +2 and +3 air. Put Tier 3 Protoss Air back into Starcraft, and you'll see some proper variety IMO. (Note: making Robo or Citadel tech paths imba will cover this problem up, but not fix it.) On June 04 2011 08:40 Catch]22 wrote:On June 04 2011 08:37 leecH wrote:On June 04 2011 08:31 Erasme wrote:
Did one of you (toss) ever tried to drop templars ?
I ask a friend of mine (top eu master). He never did, because it's 'useless'. Same for Dark templars. As a zerg player, I love when a toss sticks to an outdated style and QQ after being crushed into oblivion. sure man i make a nonstatic pylon. then i fly it to an expansion. there i unload my templar. i give him a hustler magazine and a couple of beers so he is not bored while waiting for his mojo to go up. after 25 minutes my templar could storm the shit out of the workerline but he felt asleep.. stupid templars have no work ethic. socke used alot of templar warpins but since amulet is removed you cant warp them im and instantly storm. so you talking about outdated styles while playing outdated styles. yo dawg. Funny how people managed to stormdrop in Sc1, but its impossible in sc2 because of no Khaydarin ??????????????? Funny how Storm in Sc1 did more damage in a larger area, and it was more difficult to evacuate a mineral line due to the 12-unit selection limit??????????????? Actually SC2 storm does more DPS. You're welcome. 112 (scbw) vs 80 (sc2) ... do you know what DPS means?
112 * 2x the area = much higher dps despite less "damage per sec"
|
I don't see why we lower ourselves to the level of QQ Zergs and Terrans have been using. That self-righteousness is counter-productive and makes us look bad as a race.
|
On June 04 2011 09:34 Serdiuk wrote:
I don't see why we lower ourselves to the level of QQ Zergs and Terrans have been using. That self-righteousness is counter-productive and makes us look bad as a race.
You are right. I for one dont think P are an UP race.
|
On June 04 2011 09:34 Serdiuk wrote:
I don't see why we lower ourselves to the level of QQ Zergs and Terrans have been using. That self-righteousness is counter-productive and makes us look bad as a race.
Actually, if you look through the thread, there is a surprising number of people saying that we need to find new approaches, let the game develop, adapt to new WG time, or just say they are sick of hearing zergs and terrans complain that toss is OP. I think that's why it's still open.
|
On June 04 2011 09:38 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 09:34 Serdiuk wrote:
I don't see why we lower ourselves to the level of QQ Zergs and Terrans have been using. That self-righteousness is counter-productive and makes us look bad as a race. Actually, if you look through the thread, there is a surprising number of people saying that we need to find new approaches, let the game develop, adapt to new WG time, or just say they are sick of hearing zergs and terrans complain that toss is OP. I think that's why it's still open.
Yeah, I think we're handling it pretty well. It's just so easy to fall into the trap of complaining when being baited. I think we still have some potential, especially with DTs.
|
On June 04 2011 09:06 iTzAnglory wrote:These threads do not help at all, they state the obvious while everyone just says its balancy. I honestly do not know what the OP is looking for, there are two possible answers:
1) Bad players
2) Imbalancy
If it is the first one, this thread is pointless. If it is the second one, it just turns into another rant thread. I do not see the point of why moderators let this thread stay open, the reasons are obvious. Oh your question was what do we think? Protoss Players: Imbalanced Zerg and Terrans: Lol Protoss ez race, bad players, good deal for once! Not being biased at all, if you do not believe me scroll through the comments while looking at the race portraits. Show nested quote +Protoss is so bad all they can do is get second place in the last GSL, or get 1st,3rd and 4th in the previous one.
.. apparently now if Protoss isn't winning absolutely everything they're UP ~Terran Player + Show Spoiler +On June 04 2011 04:29 darmousseh wrote:
There are a # of problems protoss has which makes them weak in certain situations.
1. Protoss units can't retreat.
One of the major advantages of blink stalkers and collosus is that you can retreat with them, but zealots, immortals, void rays and to some extent HT and archons cannot retreat fast enough. if a terran is losing a battle, they can stim and run away. Zerg units are so fast they can just sprint away. Other than stalkers and collosus, once a protoss engages, they must commit or else be willing to lose all of their zealots. This was the problem with archons, but that changed in the patch. Marauders and infestors don't help the situation either.
2. Protoss can reinforce too quickly.
When blizzard did balancing, they needed to consider the effect of reinforcement on the balance. Because protoss can warp in, the units are weaker by a large margin.
3. High dependance on spell casters and high dps units Terran can win games with marines and marauders only. Once terran has stim, protoss needs sentries (for guardian shields and forcefields), collosus (to do dps) or HT, and blink/charge and all high dps units from protoss are easily counterable. (vikings against collosus, ghosts against HT, concussive shells against charge/blink). If protoss wants to win, they need to win every single engagement.
4. No area controlling units. Dark templar can be considered area controlling to a tiny extent, but only lasts a short time. Tanks for terran, banelings and infestors for zerg, protoss literally has nothing. At one time, protoss could hold a position by having a pylon and being able to warp in a high templar with kydarian amulet, but no more. There is no risk advancing into a protoss base. This is the biggest reason why protoss is always in a ball.
5. Highly limited tech choice This somewhat opened up with the recent changes to archon, but most air builds are almost autolosses and warp prism play offers very limited reward with high risks. Obviously protoss hasn't explored EVERY single option, but it's not due to a lack of trying.
6. The cost of scouting is too high. A terran can scout with reapers or scans at almost any moment, a zerg can send an overlord , but a protoss must choose a specific tech pattern and sacrifice tech choices in order to scout. If the protoss gets hallucination, then that's 2 less forcefields and less tech. If the protoss gets an obs, that's 200m/100g followed by 25m/75g. And scouting makes protoss SUPER vulnerable to a fast timing attack. I think protoss need to get that super fast immortal to be safe followed by a chrono'd observer in order to be safe against dt builds, banshee builds, and burrowed roach. My guess is that blizzard designed protoss to always get a fast robo every game (considering all of the units like immortals, observers, and warp prisms), but the truth is that the investment makes it difficult to choose another tech path if you scout something that robo is not good against. Zerg can scout with a lair (a natural part of their tech path) and terran can scout with scans or reapers (a very natural part of the tech path). I still think this is something that can be explored. Maybe hallucination first builds or something would really go a long way to help out. Maybe 1 gate robo is the build of the future, something to be considered. This however I believe is the #1 problem protoss currently has.
I'm not saying protoss is UP, they still win a lot of games and each race has it's own problems, but that the problems for protoss make it difficult to show consistent results mostly because of the scouting problem. Naniwa did 4 gates in order to be the agressor (in which case you don't really need early scouting), but as 4 gates got nerfed, naniwa's build got weaker and I think MLG will show the results of the most recent patch.
~Protoss Player, see what I mean now? Show nested quote +if you look at results only it looks bad. but if you watched the games, they played horribly. Zerg Player
Protoss has and continues to do really well for a long time. Suddenly they look like they're going to do bad in the beginning rounds of one tournament and Protoss start complaining? Theres far greater evidence that says Protoss is strong than weak.
This thread doesn't deserve a long post explaining why it's stupid.
|
On June 04 2011 02:52 Cthun wrote:Hello, This is a spoiler thread, so if you haven't watched the GSL, but still want to do it, do not open the rest of it... You've been warned.+ Show Spoiler +Right now as I'm watching the GSL super tournament on GOMTV, it is depressing to see how the badly the protoss players are doing. Most of the protoss are losing left and right to other races, with only HuK and MC still playing decent. It was nice to see how Trickster played, but now, even he is out...
Makes me want to switch to zerg :/
What do you guys think?
It's not about Protoss weakness but about Zerg strength.
You will see these same Zerg beating the remaining Terran players by abusing superior macro mechanics and making muta, the same way they abused their superior macro mechanics and made roaches against Protoss.
Now that all timing pushes stim push/4gates etc... have been either nerfed, figured out, or both, the Zerg has a freeroad to the late game where they are at a systematical advantage now that kaldarim amulet is gone.
Mechanically, the Zerg is ahead 30 to 40 food and by 15-20 drones if nothing happens in the early game and he will get maxed when the P or T will still be at 140 food.
Now I agree that Zerg army is slightly less cost-efficient, but the gap doesn't justify the current disparity in terms of macro which is quite frankly absolutely grotesque.
|
On June 04 2011 09:43 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 09:06 iTzAnglory wrote:These threads do not help at all, they state the obvious while everyone just says its balancy. I honestly do not know what the OP is looking for, there are two possible answers:
1) Bad players
2) Imbalancy
If it is the first one, this thread is pointless. If it is the second one, it just turns into another rant thread. I do not see the point of why moderators let this thread stay open, the reasons are obvious. Oh your question was what do we think? Protoss Players: Imbalanced Zerg and Terrans: Lol Protoss ez race, bad players, good deal for once! Not being biased at all, if you do not believe me scroll through the comments while looking at the race portraits. Protoss is so bad all they can do is get second place in the last GSL, or get 1st,3rd and 4th in the previous one.
.. apparently now if Protoss isn't winning absolutely everything they're UP ~Terran Player + Show Spoiler +On June 04 2011 04:29 darmousseh wrote:
There are a # of problems protoss has which makes them weak in certain situations.
1. Protoss units can't retreat.
One of the major advantages of blink stalkers and collosus is that you can retreat with them, but zealots, immortals, void rays and to some extent HT and archons cannot retreat fast enough. if a terran is losing a battle, they can stim and run away. Zerg units are so fast they can just sprint away. Other than stalkers and collosus, once a protoss engages, they must commit or else be willing to lose all of their zealots. This was the problem with archons, but that changed in the patch. Marauders and infestors don't help the situation either.
2. Protoss can reinforce too quickly.
When blizzard did balancing, they needed to consider the effect of reinforcement on the balance. Because protoss can warp in, the units are weaker by a large margin.
3. High dependance on spell casters and high dps units Terran can win games with marines and marauders only. Once terran has stim, protoss needs sentries (for guardian shields and forcefields), collosus (to do dps) or HT, and blink/charge and all high dps units from protoss are easily counterable. (vikings against collosus, ghosts against HT, concussive shells against charge/blink). If protoss wants to win, they need to win every single engagement.
4. No area controlling units. Dark templar can be considered area controlling to a tiny extent, but only lasts a short time. Tanks for terran, banelings and infestors for zerg, protoss literally has nothing. At one time, protoss could hold a position by having a pylon and being able to warp in a high templar with kydarian amulet, but no more. There is no risk advancing into a protoss base. This is the biggest reason why protoss is always in a ball.
5. Highly limited tech choice This somewhat opened up with the recent changes to archon, but most air builds are almost autolosses and warp prism play offers very limited reward with high risks. Obviously protoss hasn't explored EVERY single option, but it's not due to a lack of trying.
6. The cost of scouting is too high. A terran can scout with reapers or scans at almost any moment, a zerg can send an overlord , but a protoss must choose a specific tech pattern and sacrifice tech choices in order to scout. If the protoss gets hallucination, then that's 2 less forcefields and less tech. If the protoss gets an obs, that's 200m/100g followed by 25m/75g. And scouting makes protoss SUPER vulnerable to a fast timing attack. I think protoss need to get that super fast immortal to be safe followed by a chrono'd observer in order to be safe against dt builds, banshee builds, and burrowed roach. My guess is that blizzard designed protoss to always get a fast robo every game (considering all of the units like immortals, observers, and warp prisms), but the truth is that the investment makes it difficult to choose another tech path if you scout something that robo is not good against. Zerg can scout with a lair (a natural part of their tech path) and terran can scout with scans or reapers (a very natural part of the tech path). I still think this is something that can be explored. Maybe hallucination first builds or something would really go a long way to help out. Maybe 1 gate robo is the build of the future, something to be considered. This however I believe is the #1 problem protoss currently has.
I'm not saying protoss is UP, they still win a lot of games and each race has it's own problems, but that the problems for protoss make it difficult to show consistent results mostly because of the scouting problem. Naniwa did 4 gates in order to be the agressor (in which case you don't really need early scouting), but as 4 gates got nerfed, naniwa's build got weaker and I think MLG will show the results of the most recent patch.
~Protoss Player, see what I mean now? if you look at results only it looks bad. but if you watched the games, they played horribly. Zerg Player Protoss has and continues to do really well for a long time. Suddenly they look like they're going to do bad in the beginning rounds of one tournament and Protoss start complaining? Theres far greater evidence that says Protoss is strong than weak. This thread doesn't deserve a long post explaining why it's stupid.
I don't know where the idea comes from about this domination by protoss at any point. Other than oGsMC's wins, we have 4 wins in major tournaments following the beta. Not even a qq, just sick of these protoss myths (i.e. people claiming they win all tournaments, have received too many buffs, even though every unit but the phoenix was nerfed, that they are so much easier than the other races, that their units are the most cost and supply efficient, etc.)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
|
huge trend of zerg over protoss atm at the very top levels. Really interesting to watch
|
If HuK gets eliminated, i swear im gonna break something expensive
|
On June 04 2011 09:55 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 09:43 fraktoasters wrote:On June 04 2011 09:06 iTzAnglory wrote:These threads do not help at all, they state the obvious while everyone just says its balancy. I honestly do not know what the OP is looking for, there are two possible answers:
1) Bad players
2) Imbalancy
If it is the first one, this thread is pointless. If it is the second one, it just turns into another rant thread. I do not see the point of why moderators let this thread stay open, the reasons are obvious. Oh your question was what do we think? Protoss Players: Imbalanced Zerg and Terrans: Lol Protoss ez race, bad players, good deal for once! Not being biased at all, if you do not believe me scroll through the comments while looking at the race portraits. Protoss is so bad all they can do is get second place in the last GSL, or get 1st,3rd and 4th in the previous one.
.. apparently now if Protoss isn't winning absolutely everything they're UP ~Terran Player + Show Spoiler +On June 04 2011 04:29 darmousseh wrote:
There are a # of problems protoss has which makes them weak in certain situations.
1. Protoss units can't retreat.
One of the major advantages of blink stalkers and collosus is that you can retreat with them, but zealots, immortals, void rays and to some extent HT and archons cannot retreat fast enough. if a terran is losing a battle, they can stim and run away. Zerg units are so fast they can just sprint away. Other than stalkers and collosus, once a protoss engages, they must commit or else be willing to lose all of their zealots. This was the problem with archons, but that changed in the patch. Marauders and infestors don't help the situation either.
2. Protoss can reinforce too quickly.
When blizzard did balancing, they needed to consider the effect of reinforcement on the balance. Because protoss can warp in, the units are weaker by a large margin.
3. High dependance on spell casters and high dps units Terran can win games with marines and marauders only. Once terran has stim, protoss needs sentries (for guardian shields and forcefields), collosus (to do dps) or HT, and blink/charge and all high dps units from protoss are easily counterable. (vikings against collosus, ghosts against HT, concussive shells against charge/blink). If protoss wants to win, they need to win every single engagement.
4. No area controlling units. Dark templar can be considered area controlling to a tiny extent, but only lasts a short time. Tanks for terran, banelings and infestors for zerg, protoss literally has nothing. At one time, protoss could hold a position by having a pylon and being able to warp in a high templar with kydarian amulet, but no more. There is no risk advancing into a protoss base. This is the biggest reason why protoss is always in a ball.
5. Highly limited tech choice This somewhat opened up with the recent changes to archon, but most air builds are almost autolosses and warp prism play offers very limited reward with high risks. Obviously protoss hasn't explored EVERY single option, but it's not due to a lack of trying.
6. The cost of scouting is too high. A terran can scout with reapers or scans at almost any moment, a zerg can send an overlord , but a protoss must choose a specific tech pattern and sacrifice tech choices in order to scout. If the protoss gets hallucination, then that's 2 less forcefields and less tech. If the protoss gets an obs, that's 200m/100g followed by 25m/75g. And scouting makes protoss SUPER vulnerable to a fast timing attack. I think protoss need to get that super fast immortal to be safe followed by a chrono'd observer in order to be safe against dt builds, banshee builds, and burrowed roach. My guess is that blizzard designed protoss to always get a fast robo every game (considering all of the units like immortals, observers, and warp prisms), but the truth is that the investment makes it difficult to choose another tech path if you scout something that robo is not good against. Zerg can scout with a lair (a natural part of their tech path) and terran can scout with scans or reapers (a very natural part of the tech path). I still think this is something that can be explored. Maybe hallucination first builds or something would really go a long way to help out. Maybe 1 gate robo is the build of the future, something to be considered. This however I believe is the #1 problem protoss currently has.
I'm not saying protoss is UP, they still win a lot of games and each race has it's own problems, but that the problems for protoss make it difficult to show consistent results mostly because of the scouting problem. Naniwa did 4 gates in order to be the agressor (in which case you don't really need early scouting), but as 4 gates got nerfed, naniwa's build got weaker and I think MLG will show the results of the most recent patch.
~Protoss Player, see what I mean now? if you look at results only it looks bad. but if you watched the games, they played horribly. Zerg Player Protoss has and continues to do really well for a long time. Suddenly they look like they're going to do bad in the beginning rounds of one tournament and Protoss start complaining? Theres far greater evidence that says Protoss is strong than weak. This thread doesn't deserve a long post explaining why it's stupid. I don't know where the idea comes from about this domination by protoss at any point. Other than oGsMC's wins, we have 4 wins in major tournaments following the beta. Not even a qq, just sick of these protoss myths (i.e. people claiming they win all tournaments, have received too many buffs, even though every unit but the phoenix was nerfed, that they are so much easier than the other races, that their units are the most cost and supply efficient, etc.) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Most of those "myths" have nothing to do with major tournament wins. Protoss being the easiest race, for example, is something I'd agree with, but that wouldn't give them much of an advantage at the highest level (when race difficulty doesn't really matter).
The Protoss QQ really just escalated when the maps got larger / Protoss defended cheese better. Particularly between the introduction of large GSL maps, and before Khydarin Amulet was nerfed, they were at their strongest.
Glad to see most of the trash slumping now tbh (like HongUn, Anypro), the great players like Alicia will really start to stand out from the pack.
|
I don't think Protoss is in that bad of shape right now, but I am worried about the future of the race. Zerg have taken it upon themselves to be the aggressor and start to put the pain on very quickly and on some maps it can be much harder to defend aggression than to apply it given the mechanics of the races but really Zerg have always had options when they were considered the underdog--there were units that weren't being used, paths that weren't being taken and overall it is much easier to find a solution when your opponent is being passive as opposed to aggressive
The biggest issue right now though is finding a way to parry for aggressor but what exactly is left to explore for Protoss? Protoss in the last few months have virtually used every unit and opening for each tech tree against Zerg--Stargate, DT, Fast Colossus, Mass Blink, heavy Gateway aggression, Gateway/Rogo aggresion, Immortal/Stalker, Zealot/Archon, Nexus/Forge Expandsm, Sentry Expands--on top of this Protoss don't have upgrades to nullify this aggression like burrow does in a mass gateway and with so much tech already explored for Protoss, it is quite concerning when the answer isn't even close to being clear right now and it is even scarier that a lot of Zergs are having success without even working Infestors into their play yet
Blizzard are pretty good about balancing this game so if there is a need for buffs/nerfs then I have more than enough confidence that they will make the right decision considering they have done a great job so far.
---
There is obviously cognitive dissonance with the ridiculous arrangement that Protoss is easy yet has the least amount of top players playing it despite being the most played race in the game.
I can't help but think the very same people who are trying to argue an absurd point are the same type of people that watch the game more than they play, the race is much harder than what people give credit (or lack thereof) .
Especially the bullshit argument about lower levels. I mean, look at the European ladder. Overall, there the distribution of players for Zerg and Protoss within the population are 25% and 32.9%, respectively--but if you look at the representation of Zerg in Diamond/Masters and GradMasters-- the disparity in distribution is less than 1% in each league between Zerg and Protooss, which would suggest that Zerg "takes less skill"
|
Protoss has had a long period of time when they could rely on many of the same strategies in each matchup to be safe. With changes in every matchup (PvZ and PvP particularly but also some in PvT), they're now forced to find new ways to play the matchups, which can be tough after a long period of stagnation.
That's why I think they're not doing that well right now, but it's only a temporary thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
