Protoss at the GSL - Page 18

On June 04 2011 11:47 hahaimhenry wrote:
Well no kidding Protoss are doing bad. They all play the SAME way, it's just whoever executes it the best (that being MC). Look at their PvZ, it's so predictable that Nestea completely exposed it - and it's not like he's the only one, a lot of other Zs say protoss play the same way.

In my honest opinion, there's nothing wrong with balance, I just think the top toss players aren't as good as the top T and Z players. I know a lot of MC fanboys will cry, but compared to MVP and NesTea, he's not any better than them.

On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.

Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.

Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.

If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.

Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z).

On June 04 2011 11:50 redbrain wrote:
Thing is in my opinion so many protoss are just in this phase of a meta game shift in that from oGsMC's purely abusive sentry bases timming attacks and i say abusive because to be far it was...

But coming from that, so many protoss were getting pretty much Free Wins vs Zerg so zerg whined for so long because its dam hard to be far for Zerg to deal with it unless they know exactly when the protoss moves out and even then people were loosing to crunchers abusive get collosus void ray and hit a timming across the map style. Now Zergs are playing the matchup ZvP more like ZvT where the Terran needs to apply pressure thoughout to control the zergs econ to get ahead.

But right now i dont see _any_ protoss play a pure passive macro style of game because protoss players just dont seem to realise how strong their units are and taking the map with protoss is a very real and good thing to do and +3 base protoss is extremely scary i would love to see someone actually do that as protoss because i personally feel its the way they should be played instead of purely abusive timming attacks

Personally i am sick of being a spectator and it was for soooo long that shoutcasters would be like "ohh the protoss moved out with some sentries and stalkers some roaches and zerglings should be enough... some really nice forcefields there from <insert name here>... oh the ramp has been FF i think the hatch will go down... now i wonder what the zerg will do.. and there we have it GG"

Or pretty much the same just put collosus in there.

And its just they all hit these absoluitle insane timmings and its taken an insanty amount of practice for people to respond well to this, because if you consider ZvT Banelings are _such_ a power unit in that a good marine tank timming all the zerg needs is 2 goo banelings hits and the zerg is safe you cant do that in zvt hydra roach or hydra ling etc for early timmings is hard to support properly early on and FF completely negates mellee units etc... but i think you see what i am getting at i still havent seen any macro orientated protoss players yet and i reckon thats the way they should be playing.

On June 04 2011 11:43 xbankx wrote:



If you watched how Nestea lost that tourney versus the toss, he made the mistake that mid level master players won't even make. Who on their right mind stays pure roach ling against mass blink stalkers....

Personally, Im fine with toss players losing. I just hate it when toss players aren't doing well and zerg players like Idra are winning tournies and still are whining about toss. It just seems like a low blow. And most people already stated, the only toss player to really do well is MC and he is just a bunch of mid game gateway+sentry timings and when he wins, instead of "AMAZING PLAY" we get 40 pages of Idra fan boys going imba FF imba FF. It just makes me sick inside.

If you dont believe me: for reference, game 2 idra vs cruncher on shakuras in some tourney where idra lost with 40pop advantage and 1 base up roach/hydra vs mass blink stalker. I myself believe that the biggest reason why getting hydras is so hard is because theyr so gas intensive and a P can easily outmass/upgrade his stalkers. Not saying hydras are bad against stalkers, but its not always the obvious and right choice to swith from roach/ling to roach/hydra

We would applaud protoss playing HT/immortal or mass blink stalker or any other kind of play revolving more than 2 base.

On June 04 2011 12:14 Dommk wrote:


He lost because he failed his micro. Mass Blink Stalkers is a fairly micro intensive strat and a lot of the fight comes down to micro. Not to mention he had like 50 Drones on 3base, not exactly the biggest advantage. Cruncher did the same strat next game and got rolled



Like Cruncher vs Mondragon on Meta? He got applauded alright, applauded real good

On June 04 2011 12:29 HolyArrow wrote:
IMO there are people of all races (Z, P, T) who prematurely whine about imbalance when they just need to do something different. The pattern goes,

(Person suggesting something different): Why don't you just try ____?
(Person whining): No, that doesn't work. Z/P/T HAS to ____ or else _____ happens and they lose. ___ is impossible.
(Person suggesting something different): *shrug* Well, I'm pretty sure people just need to change up what they're doing and innovate a bit. There's probably something out there.
(Person whining): No! The game is broken! I've tried everything!

I've seen this discussion SO many times and it ALMOST ALWAYS turns out that innovation was, indeed, all that was needed. Granted, patches can change things, but IMO that all the more supports an argument for needing innovation. You can't just do the same thing after a patch change/metagame change and expect to win. It might seem like there aren't many options because there are very narrow, defined things that you're used to doing so it's hard to think outside the box - but, there is almost always a solution, as time has told again and again.

I say this as a Toss player, and I have faith that our players will innovate and figure stuff out again.

On June 04 2011 12:36 Daralii wrote:

Allowing pros to experiment in order to change the metagame rather than complaining about imbalance? Madness!

On June 04 2011 12:05 ruiyang wrote:


Sounds harsh but as a zerg player I'm inclined to say protoss played really abusive. We went from 4gate to cannon wall in, cannon behind mineral line to voidray rush, phoenix rush, DT rush, 6gate, mass sentry collosus deathbal, etc etc. Games against protoss who played either all in or 2 base timing attack all inn-ish was never fun for us. We would applaud protoss playing HT/immortal or mass blink stalker or any other kind of play revolving more than 2 base. After almost a year of being all inned 80% of our games we just became good at macroing and defending cheese, now its up to you to recover your lost year of abusing your wins, hence all the bad protoss in GSL etc thats losing. Ofc, discrediting ppl and having 40 pages of idra fanboy flame is just as bad, even worse, cus you dont get any better from that.

Also, honestly, i didnt see the match so maybe i shouldnt say too mucu but theres no way that nestea simply lost while a mid master couldve stopped mass blink stalker from that guy. I practice ZvP a lot, against one of the best players of benelux, and for some strange reason ling/roach tends to do beter than hydras against mass stalker. If you dont believe me: for reference, game 2 idra vs cruncher on shakuras in some tourney where idra lost with 40pop advantage and 1 base up roach/hydra vs mass blink stalker. I myself believe that the biggest reason why getting hydras is so hard is because theyr so gas intensive and a P can easily outmass/upgrade his stalkers. Not saying hydras are bad against stalkers, but its not always the obvious and right choice to swith from roach/ling to roach/hydra

On June 04 2011 15:14 PeggyHill wrote:
To be honest I always thought MC was slightly overrated, he seemed to rely on early 4/6 gate timing pushes, sometimes with the nexus cancel. Always seemed cheap to me. Not saying he isn't great, but people are correct when they say he isn't the hero that toss needs.

I think the point about the forge FE being difficult due to open naturals is a good one, BW the maps seemed to be designed so that this build could be done. In SC2 so many maps the forge FE is just too eaisly abused.

I think what we saw in SC2 was the first great transition from the original Blizz maps, ie Steppes etc into better maps like Tal'Darim etc. We are just waiting for the second generation to hit before we can see the game evolve further, at the mo it's just stagnant.