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Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.
Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.
Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z).
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On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.
Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.
Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z).
If you exclude Mirror matches, that shouldn't be the case for GSL Super tournament given:
TvZ: 11-13 (45.8%)
ZvP: 11-9 (55%)
PvT: 5-13 (27.8%)
Excluding Mirror matches, Zerg should have the highest retention in players, not the lowest.
And Sen likes to play different races, when he joined fnatic he said he played all three races and thought the idea of limiting yourself to one race was bad.
As far as I know, he only plays PvZ as Protoss on some maps, mostly because he understands Zerg pretty fucking well and he is a darn good player that can play multiple races.
EDIT: Found the quote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Q. I’ve seen you play Protoss and Terran on your stream, why do you play the other races?
A. Starcraft 2 is a masterpiece, nobody has figured it out yet. If I only play Zerg, I'll be missing out on all the fun. I always enjoyed trying out different things
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On June 04 2011 10:46 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.
Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.
Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z). If you exclude Mirror matches, that shouldn't be the case for GSL Super tournament given: TvZ: 11-13 (45.8%) ZvP: 11-9 (55%) PvT: 5-13 (27.8%) Excluding Mirror matches, Zerg should have the highest retention in players, not the lowest. And Sen likes to play different races, when he joined fnatic he said he played all three races and thought the idea of limiting yourself to one race was bad. As far as I know, he only plays PvZ as Protoss on some maps, mostly because he understands Zerg pretty fucking well and he is a darn good player that can play multiple races.
Its obvious that hes a super good player but his main and best race stays zerg and he himself states that PvZ (on certain maps) is ridiculously easy. Lets not go into that further because its biased stuff and irrelevant. Sorry.
Back on topic. Im on my iphone so cant look up statistics as of date but why are your statistics diff than mine. The one i found is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228319 where it states that:
-43% protoss advance to 42% zerg and 58% terran
-PvZ 1: 66% protoss 4-2 set and PvZ 2: 56% 9-7 stats (??)
-also important to note: most P non mirror match losses come by far from T
Zerg invents and innovate new ZvP and still lose more than win = QQ Protoss? Or are my sources wrong?
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On June 04 2011 10:57 ruiyang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 10:46 Dommk wrote:On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.
Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.
Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z). If you exclude Mirror matches, that shouldn't be the case for GSL Super tournament given: TvZ: 11-13 (45.8%) ZvP: 11-9 (55%) PvT: 5-13 (27.8%) Excluding Mirror matches, Zerg should have the highest retention in players, not the lowest. And Sen likes to play different races, when he joined fnatic he said he played all three races and thought the idea of limiting yourself to one race was bad. As far as I know, he only plays PvZ as Protoss on some maps, mostly because he understands Zerg pretty fucking well and he is a darn good player that can play multiple races. Its obvious that hes a super good player but his main and best race stays zerg and he himself states that PvZ (on certain maps) is ridiculously easy. Lets not go into that further because its biased stuff and irrelevant. Sorry. Back on topic. Im on my iphone so cant look up statistics as of date but why are your statistics diff than mine. The one i found is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228319 where it states that: -43% protoss advance to 42% zerg and 58% terran -PvZ 1: 66% protoss 4-2 set and PvZ 2: 56% 9-7 stats (??) -also important to note: most P non mirror match losses come by far from T Zerg invents and innovate new ZvP and still lose more than win = QQ Protoss? Or are my sources wrong?
When has he admitted it to being ridiculously easy? He has said he found it easier for him, but then again this was when Protoss were considered to have a big advantage against Zerg, ever since he changed how he played against Protoss I've yet to see him play PvZ as Toss against a serious opponent. This goes without saying that he plays a beastly Protoss, when IdrA was streaming he ran into Sen playing Toss (awhile ago) a few times and lost everytime.
My stats are from the TLPD, not sure where yours are from
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if you play protoss vs zerg you can try to turtle and get a deathball (not working anymore) or do an all in timing push (all figured out). I was hopping the pros would give some light...
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On June 04 2011 10:46 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.
Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.
Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z). If you exclude Mirror matches, that shouldn't be the case for GSL Super tournament given: TvZ: 11-13 (45.8%) ZvP: 11-9 (55%) PvT: 5-13 (27.8%) Excluding Mirror matches, Zerg should have the highest retention in players, not the lowest. And Sen likes to play different races, when he joined fnatic he said he played all three races and thought the idea of limiting yourself to one race was bad. As far as I know, he only plays PvZ as Protoss on some maps, mostly because he understands Zerg pretty fucking well and he is a darn good player that can play multiple races. EDIT: Found the quote: + Show Spoiler +
Q. I’ve seen you play Protoss and Terran on your stream, why do you play the other races?
A. Starcraft 2 is a masterpiece, nobody has figured it out yet. If I only play Zerg, I'll be missing out on all the fun. I always enjoyed trying out different things
Looking to the Super Tournament for stats is a terrible idea. A lot of the players who are playing in that tournament have fallen out of the pro scene and are not of the same caliber as current Code S and Code A players. A lot of the Protoss players we have seen have been absolutely terrible. Of course somebody like LegalMind should be expected to lose quickly.
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On June 04 2011 11:02 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 10:57 ruiyang wrote:On June 04 2011 10:46 Dommk wrote:On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.
Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.
Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z). If you exclude Mirror matches, that shouldn't be the case for GSL Super tournament given: TvZ: 11-13 (45.8%) ZvP: 11-9 (55%) PvT: 5-13 (27.8%) Excluding Mirror matches, Zerg should have the highest retention in players, not the lowest. And Sen likes to play different races, when he joined fnatic he said he played all three races and thought the idea of limiting yourself to one race was bad. As far as I know, he only plays PvZ as Protoss on some maps, mostly because he understands Zerg pretty fucking well and he is a darn good player that can play multiple races. Its obvious that hes a super good player but his main and best race stays zerg and he himself states that PvZ (on certain maps) is ridiculously easy. Lets not go into that further because its biased stuff and irrelevant. Sorry. Back on topic. Im on my iphone so cant look up statistics as of date but why are your statistics diff than mine. The one i found is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228319 where it states that: -43% protoss advance to 42% zerg and 58% terran -PvZ 1: 66% protoss 4-2 set and PvZ 2: 56% 9-7 stats (??) -also important to note: most P non mirror match losses come by far from T Zerg invents and innovate new ZvP and still lose more than win = QQ Protoss? Or are my sources wrong? lWhen has he admitted it to being ridiculously easy? He has said he found it easier for him, but then again this was when Protoss were considered to have a big advantage against Zerg, ever since he changed how he played against Protoss I've yet to see him play PvZ as Toss against a serious opponent My stats are off TLPD, not sure where yours are from
Thanks for responding, lets cut this Sen thing cus its too biased and subjective.
Lets say your right about the stats and that PvZ isnt as easy as it sounds, why does every p whine over a 55% win of ZvP when theyr completely getting destroyed by T? PvZ sounds balanced compared to PvT statistics and everyone knows it might be a FOTM moment that Zerg is slightly coming ahead of P. The patch is new and maybe P will go back to rolling Z in a short while (I myself have found opponents that stop roach/ling on 1300+ high master, Im sure top protoss can stop top Z timing attacks in time aswell)
Next thing im gonna say is biased but i strongly believe that Protoss has huge potential and they are by no means UP. Here in Holland smaller tournaments are either won by terran/protoss high masters OR grandmaster zergs vs master T/P finals. Talking about 1000$ prizes where best of Benelux competes exclusing Ret and Grubby.
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On June 04 2011 02:55 Cthun wrote:Did I miss something? When did that happen? Very constructive post m8, really gives you a lot to think about.
alicia destroyed mc. So it is alicia and huk. there might be some more, but historically there haven't been many protoss in korea. It has just been that way for a while, not balance related but kind of interesting.
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On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z).
http://i.imgur.com/N36Xm.png
Thats based off of all GSL games if I'm not mistaken, and as you can see, in April ZvP was at a 70% win rate, and I'm quite certain the trend hasn't changed much for May either. If its multiple consecutive months of massive discrepancy, then there is perhaps something wrong with the matchup. Even during March when everybody complained about protoss being imbalanced over zerg, it was still a 55/45 split, which is considered acceptable by Blizzard balancing standards (within the +/- 5% range).
I love Sen, but the Sen offracing thing isn't really a valid point at all, ogsMC says he can easily beat protoss players using zerg also too, it just doesn't mean anything imho.
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On June 04 2011 08:40 Catch]22 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 08:37 leecH wrote:On June 04 2011 08:31 Erasme wrote:
Did one of you (toss) ever tried to drop templars ?
I ask a friend of mine (top eu master). He never did, because it's 'useless'. Same for Dark templars. As a zerg player, I love when a toss sticks to an outdated style and QQ after being crushed into oblivion. sure man i make a nonstatic pylon. then i fly it to an expansion. there i unload my templar. i give him a hustler magazine and a couple of beers so he is not bored while waiting for his mojo to go up. after 25 minutes my templar could storm the shit out of the workerline but he felt asleep.. stupid templars have no work ethic. socke used alot of templar warpins but since amulet is removed you cant warp them im and instantly storm. so you talking about outdated styles while playing outdated styles. yo dawg. Funny how people managed to stormdrop in Sc1, but its impossible in sc2 because of no Khaydarin ???????????????
Storm did way more damage in sc1. Storm drops are okay but I'd only use them on maps with ledges like delta quadrant that are exploitable. Otherwise a good player will just run his workers before you can storm them.
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Every single protoss unit has a hard, hard counter. Also, almost every single Protoss build has a HUGE weakness while terran or zerg have some builds that can work around many things.
I think Protoss is slowly fading away and if the new expansion doesn't bring some new units or new builds, Protoss will become very,very underpowered.
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On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.
Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.
Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as off race P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z).
2 protoss in top 4 is not most.. that is half.. And No, what are you talking about sentry expanding at low levels and all ining.. Protoss have been losing to all ins, which can be defended but most people do their sentry expand a little bit too greedily.. But no you can't say P>Z without it just being a blatant Balance whine, and with recent Korean statistics protoss are not dominating zerg anymore. Also back to your "low level" sentry expand comment, by that are you referring to protoss in the gsl/nasl "low level". but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible. But everything you said contradicts that, and so what if sen can offrace a person and win, Axslav Minigun and inca off race as terran.... Does that say anything... no. Naniwa played terran vs socke and won with his offrace, so by your method does that mean that Terran > protoss... Not at all, basing balance statements of simple results with no explanation of a game. Situational things could have occurred. Also telling protoss players to "grow balls" and to "not all in every game" is quite a funny thing to say if you ask me, because if you watch players like MC they do macro play mixed with timings in Box series. So while the op looked like a balance whine, doesn't mean that you need to say things about how protoss is actually a much better race, and if you ask me saying the race is better than x race just takes achievements away from players.
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On June 04 2011 11:11 ruiyang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 11:02 Dommk wrote:On June 04 2011 10:57 ruiyang wrote:On June 04 2011 10:46 Dommk wrote:On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
Whats wrong with you protoss whiners. Admittedly, I'm a 1300 masters zerg with 200 bonus pool, but im also trying to be as non-biased as possible.
Honestly, I really don't see why so many protoss players are complaining about zerg vs protoss. What are you basing your whine on? That you cant stop roach ling with sentry expand on low level? Or on so called statistics? From what I know, in the first round of the GSL super tourney the ratio of Protoss falling out is LESS than zerg. Other words, P>Z in general AND PvZ. This has also been the case in TSL and even worse in Chinese Starleague where MOST top players joined and top4 were all P.
Want to base imbalance/whine on tournament performance? Im pretty sure T has the most overall achievements (tournament wins + runner ups) this is most likely because there are more high lvl terrans than other races but at the same time P has the worst win ratio against them. If you want to whine then why dont you whine on Terran because they have the biggest win% against P, oh I know why, because the flavour of the month zerg strat means we actually win some games against P nowadays (STILL LESS THAN 50% SETS) whereas before you were utterly destroying zergs.
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z). If you exclude Mirror matches, that shouldn't be the case for GSL Super tournament given: TvZ: 11-13 (45.8%) ZvP: 11-9 (55%) PvT: 5-13 (27.8%) Excluding Mirror matches, Zerg should have the highest retention in players, not the lowest. And Sen likes to play different races, when he joined fnatic he said he played all three races and thought the idea of limiting yourself to one race was bad. As far as I know, he only plays PvZ as Protoss on some maps, mostly because he understands Zerg pretty fucking well and he is a darn good player that can play multiple races. Its obvious that hes a super good player but his main and best race stays zerg and he himself states that PvZ (on certain maps) is ridiculously easy. Lets not go into that further because its biased stuff and irrelevant. Sorry. Back on topic. Im on my iphone so cant look up statistics as of date but why are your statistics diff than mine. The one i found is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228319 where it states that: -43% protoss advance to 42% zerg and 58% terran -PvZ 1: 66% protoss 4-2 set and PvZ 2: 56% 9-7 stats (??) -also important to note: most P non mirror match losses come by far from T Zerg invents and innovate new ZvP and still lose more than win = QQ Protoss? Or are my sources wrong? lWhen has he admitted it to being ridiculously easy? He has said he found it easier for him, but then again this was when Protoss were considered to have a big advantage against Zerg, ever since he changed how he played against Protoss I've yet to see him play PvZ as Toss against a serious opponent My stats are off TLPD, not sure where yours are from Thanks for responding, lets cut this Sen thing cus its too biased and subjective. Lets say your right about the stats and that PvZ isnt as easy as it sounds, why does every p whine over a 55% win of ZvP when theyr completely getting destroyed by T? PvZ sounds balanced compared to PvT statistics and everyone knows it might be a FOTM moment that Zerg is slightly coming ahead of P. The patch is new and maybe P will go back to rolling Z in a short while (I myself have found opponents that stop roach/ling on 1300+ high master, Im sure top protoss can stop top Z timing attacks in time aswell) Next thing im gonna say is biased but i strongly believe that Protoss has huge potential and they are by no means UP. Here in Holland smaller tournaments are either won by terran/protoss high masters OR grandmaster zergs vs master T/P finals. Talking about 1000$ prizes where best of Benelux competes exclusing Ret and Grubby.
This doesn't solely have to do with GSL, the majority of the discussion that has happened in this thread has little to do with the GSL but rather the current state of the game, far beyond simple Roach/Ling
Personally, I have enough faith in Blizzard to do the right thing that I don't care too much for the current state of balance, if something needs fixing then they will fix it. You had the Zerg community going nuts about Voidrays, Colossus and Forcefields and they didn't touch a thing, eventually Zergs found a solution, most likely something they already knew. What is more interesting is that you see a lot of Zergs having success without even using Infestors. It just goes to show how a lot of balance whine is often misplaced.
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On June 04 2011 11:19 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z). http://i.imgur.com/N36Xm.pngThats based off of all GSL games if I'm not mistaken, and as you can see, in April ZvP was at a 70% win rate, and I'm quite certain the trend hasn't changed much for May either. If its multiple consecutive months of massive discrepancy, then there is perhaps something wrong with the matchup. Even during March when everybody complained about protoss being imbalanced over zerg, it was still a 55/45 split, which is considered acceptable by Blizzard balancing standards (within the +/- 5% range). I love Sen, but the Sen offracing thing isn't really a valid point at all, ogsMC says he can easily beat protoss players using zerg also too, it just doesn't mean anything imho.
Sorry cant open the image as im on my iphone.. Anyway:
For GSL may super tournament one says its 55:45 favour P
Other says its 55:45 favour Zerg
Now you say it cant be diff much than 70:30.
What the... Im still sticking to my point that ZvP is quite balanced atm and that IF protoss needs to find an excuse for bad play, go blame Terrans for beating you in most tournaments. I agree that most P get upset if their hero (MC) gets knocked out, but even he lost in a non PvZ match this time. Most P that actually did lose against Z are semi great, their loss can be explained in their own play and if i have to believe the 45:55 ratio then I dont see any problems. Dont forget recent China starleague where you have 4 protoss on top.
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On June 04 2011 11:29 ruiyang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 11:19 Zealot Lord wrote:On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z). http://i.imgur.com/N36Xm.pngThats based off of all GSL games if I'm not mistaken, and as you can see, in April ZvP was at a 70% win rate, and I'm quite certain the trend hasn't changed much for May either. If its multiple consecutive months of massive discrepancy, then there is perhaps something wrong with the matchup. Even during March when everybody complained about protoss being imbalanced over zerg, it was still a 55/45 split, which is considered acceptable by Blizzard balancing standards (within the +/- 5% range). I love Sen, but the Sen offracing thing isn't really a valid point at all, ogsMC says he can easily beat protoss players using zerg also too, it just doesn't mean anything imho. Sorry cant open the image as im on my iphone.. Anyway: For GSL may super tournament one says its 55:45 favour P Other says its 55:45 favour Zerg Now you say it cant be diff much than 70:30. What the... Im still sticking to my point that ZvP is quite balanced atm and that IF protoss needs to find an excuse for bad play, go blame Terrans for beating you in most tournaments. I agree that most P get upset if their hero (MC) gets knocked out, but even he lost in a non PvZ match this time. Most P that actually did lose against Z are semi great, their loss can be explained in their own play and if i have to believe the 45:55 ratio then I dont see any problems. Dont forget recent China starleague where you have 4 protoss on top.
Isn't sc2 really new in China? If it is does that mean that their results are really accurate? not really.
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Probably because the best protoss got knocked out by the other best protoss, and in general, korea has always been very weak protoss wise. (same as in BW)
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@yamulo: maybe I was too harsh on my statements. I definetely didnt mean to say that P/Z or T is better than one another, i feel that the current statiscal differences can be explained w/o mentioning balance too much. but I still definetely dont believe that Protoss are having a big unfair disadvantage against Zerg, maybe against Terran but against zerg it doesnt seem that they are doing exceptionally bad relative to skill level of both players. Im not trying to discredit pros, what i meant is that non pros shouldnt whine about balance in PvZ because the imbalance is nonexistent on their level. Even at 1300+ masters its not very often a question of balance if I lose or win.
Edit: I believe that china starleague consisted of many invites of best ppl in the world. Alot of GSL top players joined and got rolled by Chinese ppl that played on other servers before
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On June 04 2011 11:31 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 11:29 ruiyang wrote:On June 04 2011 11:19 Zealot Lord wrote:On June 04 2011 10:42 ruiyang wrote:
If anything that GSL shows: There are less good protoss that play as well as Z but they still come ahead statistically. There are more great zergs falling in ro1 then protoss, because the great protoss happened to play PvP, still the lesser Protoss manage to secure a better win%.
Protoss needs to grow some balls and stop playing all in every game and instead learn to play reactionary. If you really believe P is UP then go find me some real statistics or ask Sen how easy it is to win as offrace P against pro Z's (see starleague where sen offraced P to beat a Z). http://i.imgur.com/N36Xm.pngThats based off of all GSL games if I'm not mistaken, and as you can see, in April ZvP was at a 70% win rate, and I'm quite certain the trend hasn't changed much for May either. If its multiple consecutive months of massive discrepancy, then there is perhaps something wrong with the matchup. Even during March when everybody complained about protoss being imbalanced over zerg, it was still a 55/45 split, which is considered acceptable by Blizzard balancing standards (within the +/- 5% range). I love Sen, but the Sen offracing thing isn't really a valid point at all, ogsMC says he can easily beat protoss players using zerg also too, it just doesn't mean anything imho. Sorry cant open the image as im on my iphone.. Anyway: For GSL may super tournament one says its 55:45 favour P Other says its 55:45 favour Zerg Now you say it cant be diff much than 70:30. What the... Im still sticking to my point that ZvP is quite balanced atm and that IF protoss needs to find an excuse for bad play, go blame Terrans for beating you in most tournaments. I agree that most P get upset if their hero (MC) gets knocked out, but even he lost in a non PvZ match this time. Most P that actually did lose against Z are semi great, their loss can be explained in their own play and if i have to believe the 45:55 ratio then I dont see any problems. Dont forget recent China starleague where you have 4 protoss on top. Isn't sc2 really new in China? If it is does that mean that their results are really accurate? not really.
They've only had the game officially for a few months, but I think several players managed to secure an SEA/KR copy and bypass the Great Firewall of China.
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On June 04 2011 11:38 ruiyang wrote:
@yamulo: maybe I was too harsh on my statements. I definetely didnt mean to say that P/Z or T is better than one another, i feel that the current statiscal differences can be explained w/o mentioning balance too much. but I still definetely dont believe that Protoss are having a big unfair disadvantage against Zerg, maybe against Terran but against zerg it doesnt seem that they are doing exceptionally bad relative to skill level of both players. Im not trying to discredit pros, what i meant is that non pros shouldnt whine about balance in PvZ because the imbalance is nonexistent on their level. Even at 1300+ masters its not very often a question of balance if I lose or win.
Edit: I believe that china starleague consisted of many invites of best ppl in the world. Alot of GSL top players joined and got rolled by Chinese ppl that played on other servers before
If you watched how Nestea lost that tourney versus the toss, he made the mistake that mid level master players won't even make. Who on their right mind stays pure roach ling against mass blink stalkers....
Personally, Im fine with toss players losing. I just hate it when toss players aren't doing well and zerg players like Idra are winning tournies and still are whining about toss. It just seems like a low blow. And most people already stated, the only toss player to really do well is MC and he is just a bunch of mid game gateway+sentry timings and when he wins, instead of "AMAZING PLAY" we get 40 pages of Idra fan boys going imba FF imba FF. It just makes me sick inside.
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Sorry, but a handful of GSL games does not an imbalance make. It's crazy to see protoss players now claiming that their race is fundamentally flawed. Just a couple of months ago, the very same mechanics were considered overpowered (see the many whines regarding warp gate mechanics, the power of protoss casters, and the protoss ball), and zergs were claiming their race was fundamentally flawed. Zerg has now finally developed some potent counters and timing attacks of their own in the PvZ match up. The games P have lost to Z in the GSL have been down to serious mistakes, not anything fundamentally broken. Get some perspective guys - this is the game evolving.
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EPT
