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Cocomiel
14 Posts
On June 29 2011 17:30 Baarn wrote: There was content other than this bullshit at the end of it that people keep going on about. Cool..guess Ill check it out then. Will just skip the first part I guess. Ty.  | ||
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Hrwa
Croatia147 Posts
On June 29 2011 17:37 Cocomiel wrote: Cool..guess Ill check it out then. Will just skip the first part I guess. Ty. Drama was in last 45 minutes or so. | ||
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Cocomiel
14 Posts
Should have understood that from the last post but I read it wrong  Thanks for the correction. | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + SotG almost got sponsored by one of Complexity's sponsors. EG (or its sponsors) did not want EG members participating in SotG if this deal went through. EG tried to get one of their sponsors to sponsor SotG so that EG members would not have a conflict with the show. SotG did not accept any sponsorship deal. EG gave a raise to InControl about what he would have made if SotG was sponsored (which it wasn't) and told him they would create a new show for him (that justifies the raise). This show was ItG. Eventually InControl realized he had bitten off more than he could chew and something had to go. EG and InControl decided that the most reasonable thing to go would be SotG for the obvious reason that InControl was being paid for his other obligations (ItG, NASL, progaming) and that EG had no vested interest in SotG. InControl left SotG. InControl left NASL. InControl now has "permission" to return to SotG. My confessed bias: + Show Spoiler + I happen to believe that people tend to compromise their character a lot and their best interests so that they can get a little more money. While I don't think money or the desire to earn money is wrong in the least, I think that people are often willing to do things they don't agree with because money is on the table. I happen to admire Destiny for being of strong character in that he was unwilling to do things he disagreed with to be on Complexity and has stated that his reason for that is that he does not want to compromise his character for some extra money. I think Destiny is a good example here because he has shown that compromising ones character or desires is not the only way to make a living. I strongly believe that it is possible to be of strong character AND make a decent reasonable living. My issue with how EG handles its sponsors and the SotG situation: EG's management or EG's sponsors (I suspect the management) is not very subtle in how they want their sponsorship promoted. Case in point: - EVERY interview with and EG member ends with a list of every sponsor. - EVERY SotG ends with a list of every EG sponsor. (The fact that I know that Intel, Steelseries, Bigfoot Networks, Monster Energy, Kingston Hyper X are all sponsors of EG is from this policy.) In contrast other teams are not so aggressive with their sponsors. My speculation is that this is because of different team policies or because of different types of sponsorship contracts. EG's management (and they claim their sponsors) have strong exclusivity feelings about sponsorship. That is, because EG is sponsored, they cannot appear on shows not sponsored by EG's sponsors, or at the least, they can't appear on shows that have sponsors in direct competition with one of their sponsors. - While it was made to seem this is a perfectly obvious or reasonably policy on ItG, it is certainly not common, and I'd wager not even that common of EG. - Would EG not participate in a tournament (say MLG since it is sponsored by Astro equipment) because of a sponsor conflict? No. Because the sponsorship agreement between MLG and its sponsors does not prevent EG members from promoting their sponsors in interviews and the like. - Further, regardless of the potential sponsorship conflict on SotG, it is hard to argue that SotG is not one of the best venues for EG's sponsors (since the shout outs at the end of every show). So even the sponsorship answer does not seem 100% true to me. I think integrity of character demands that the people at EG be up front with the real reasons behind this conflict, and my only thought on why they weren't is because there is something that would not be received well by the public in this case. InControl: I'm sure he wanted to say that his place on the team was the reason that he could not be on SotG as a pillar. He was unable to say it, presumably because of pressure from the team. I think the strongest character would come right out and say "I am leaving SotG due to conflicts between the wishes of my team and the show. While I wish to both be on SotG and maintain good standing with EG, EG is my employer and their wishes for me must take precedence. If they request I leave SotG I must." If this frank statement complicated things with EG then a strong character would stand up for their opinion (that he wanted to remain on SotG) and if the ramifications of being truthful cost him the job, I REALLY question the quality of EG. EG: I'm even willing to believe that the EG wanted to let InControl remain on SotG, but here I find it harder to believe that somewhere in the management there wasn't a desire to have things their way. I believe integrity on the part of EG would demand that if they were getting strong pressure from their sponsor to remove EG members from SotG due to content issues, or their affiliation with members of other teams possibly sponsored by competitors, or the fact that SotG itself may be sponsored by a competitor, they should take every effort to explain to the sponsor that SotG is a great venue for their promotion, and barring that, come out and say that a sponsor EG was unwilling to lose was applying strong pressure for InControl to leave. Further, I think any agreement with a sponsor that provided the sponsor with that much control over their team was shortsighted. To conclude I think that EG made a major faux pas possibly due to bad decisions made in management of their sponsor and players. I also think that InControl may have handled the situation a little better himself, but in his case I can understand the pressure that is placed on you by your employer. I am glad that EG has "allowed" InControl to return to SotG and I hope that he will do just that. He was a great part of that show. I also hope that if there comes a conflict between ItG and SotG that they make a reasonable attempt to accommodate both. | ||
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JoelB
Germany311 Posts
I mean, what was going on there sure is a little sad but still its neither my job to care about nor yours - its THEIRS! And they will do what ever suites them best. Some people always tend to think that those public figures have some strange obligation towards the community or specifically themselves but ... that's not the case. You can decide if you like them or want to watch their shows, but thats it. Seriously - calm down. I guess because everything is still so small and familiar many people seem to overestimate their personal role in this whole thing. Anyways id like to thank IC, Wheat, JP an all the other great people for their work and the time and effort they put into that. It's always a pleasure to listen to your shows, which in one way or the other will continue anyways. Because of my Bachelorthesis i atm cannot really play myself, but working and listening to you in the meanwhile makes work so much more endurable for me that i really in contrast to all those raging people like to say one thing: THANK YOU and keep up the great work! Cheers | ||
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Matkap
Spain627 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 29 2011 17:57 JoelB wrote: I keep asking myself why in the hell so many people go nuts about this whole topic. There's been so much drama on TL lately mostly because of things that to me have zero to none importance, but it seems like a lot of people either have far tooo much time to constantly argue about such things OR the community itself is hyper-critical about everything. I mean, what was going on there sure is a little sad but still its neither my job to care about nor yours - its THEIRS! And they will do what ever suites them best. Some people always tend to think that those public figures have some strange obligation towards the community or specifically themselves but ... that's not the case. You can decide if you like them or want to watch their shows, but thats it. Seriously - calm down. I guess because everything is still so small and familiar many people seem to overestimate their personal role in this whole thing. Anyways id like to thank IC, Wheat, JP an all the other great people for their work and the time and effort they put into that. It's always a pleasure to listen to your shows, which in one way or the other will continue anyways. Because of my Bachelorthesis i atm cannot really play myself, but working and listening to you in the meanwhile makes work so much more endurable for me that i really in contrast to all those raging people like to say one thing: THANK YOU and keep up the great work! Cheers Well, it's easy to understand. This whole stuff made the most popular starcraft podcast disappear. Added with the fact that now, one organization has the monopoly on most of starcraft 2 content, that can raise some concern about the neutrality, diversity and independence of the opinions we'll hear in those shows (even if until now, incontrol and wheat are showing no sign of it, except perhaps about the GSL that is always ignored, but that could be a coincidence) | ||
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shavi
United States127 Posts
On June 29 2011 14:00 CrossTheRiver wrote: Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast. Anytime business or money is involved, where personal image can affect people's ability to pay bills, there will always be a certain amount of public maneuvering. What EG did today however should totally dispel any notion that they did anything wrong. in my opinion they did everything right and have been made into the scape goat. They are an easy target because certain other notable folks in the community have some specific beef with EG and a lot of people parrot the negativity without ever exploring what is really going on. The good news for you my man, is you can so easily side step all this nonsense that there is no need to fret or lose sleep. You really think they did EVERYTHING right? You think initially lying to the community about the issue in the first place was right? Sorry if lying does matter to me. Sorry if someone outright lies to me (me as part of the community), I get offended and upset. I don't feel I deserve all information all the time. Hell, I don't feel I deserve to see all information EVER. But I don't feel I EVER deserve to be lied to, by a company/person/robot/politician/WHATEVER. If it comes into the limelight you did in fact lie to a mass, such as what happened here, I feel a response like this is extremely warranted by the community and I don't feel it's any negative will being exemplified because some "notable folk" having some other beef with them. I think we were fine with EG until we saw a bullshit excuse to pull iNcontroL from a show we love, and then get proof that we were right later. If you're fine to being lied to about any issue ever I feel really sorry for you, thankfully this community doesn't seem to enjoy it much. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On June 29 2011 17:57 JoelB wrote: I keep asking myself why in the hell so many people go nuts about this whole topic. There's been so much drama on TL lately mostly because of things that to me have zero to none importance, but it seems like a lot of people either have far tooo much time to constantly argue about such things OR the community itself is hyper-critical about everything. I mean, what was going on there sure is a little sad but still its neither my job to care about nor yours - its THEIRS! And they will do what ever suites them best. Some people always tend to think that those public figures have some strange obligation towards the community or specifically themselves but ... that's not the case. You can decide if you like them or want to watch their shows, but thats it. Seriously - calm down. I guess because everything is still so small and familiar many people seem to overestimate their personal role in this whole thing. Anyways id like to thank IC, Wheat, JP an all the other great people for their work and the time and effort they put into that. It's always a pleasure to listen to your shows, which in one way or the other will continue anyways. Because of my Bachelorthesis i atm cannot really play myself, but working and listening to you in the meanwhile makes work so much more endurable for me that i really in contrast to all those raging people like to say one thing: THANK YOU and keep up the great work! Cheers I find both the people complaining about even the smallest thing and the people that feel the need to downplay and defend e-celebrities to be equally annoying. EG made a mistake and should get some of the shit they're getting, it's went kinda overboard but that's cause people care alot for their favorite show i guess. Of course they have a obligation to the fans, it's the fans that watch the streams/shows and provide the base for sponsorship. EG should really want to please and be open with their fans as it's the base for their revenue. | ||
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EnderCraft
United States1746 Posts
Geoff says he wants to do SotG. And as a personal fan of Geoff, permitting JP make the show strictly 90 minutes, I would be willing to sacrifice a longer SoTG for a shorter SotG that would allow Geoff to feasibly get enough practice in for the day while still doing ITG/SotG. Ultimately, this is Geoff's decision. I cannot speak for Geoff and say what is not straining or too straining on his work schedule. However as a fan, I hope JP, EG, and all of it's sponsors can consider compromising so we can see one of the most vital parts of the community return to it's truest form for all iNcontrol fans to enjoy Edit: There, I removed an unnecessary few sentences that detracted from my main point. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
On June 29 2011 18:25 EnderCraft wrote: Until those conflicts on interests arise, there is virtually no reason why EG and it's sponsors should be paranoid about SotG. The complexity thing flopped. What are you worried about? Geoff is done with NASL. That's what was really eating up his time. Also I propose in the interest of all the hosts on SoTG, SotG should be shortened to a 90 minute long podcast. I don't think 3 hours of podcasting on Tuesdays will nearly take it's toll on Geoff as casting NASL 5 days a week. Geoff says he wants to do SotG. And as a personal fan of Geoff, permitting JP make the show strictly 90 minutes, I would be willing to sacrifice a longer SoTG for a shorter SotG that would allow Geoff to feasibly get enough practice in for the day while still doing ITG/SotG. Ultimately, this is Geoff's decision. I cannot speak for Geoff and say what is not straining or too straining on his work schedule. However as a fan, I hope JP, EG, and all of it's sponsors can consider compromising so we can see one of the most vital parts of the community return to it's truest form for all iNcontrol fans to enjoy You're ignorant to the situation. Geoff isn't of sotg because he doesn't have time, but because as an EG member, he's not allowed to be. | ||
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shavi
United States127 Posts
On June 29 2011 18:30 Oreo7 wrote: You're ignorant to the situation. Geoff isn't of sotg because he doesn't have time, but because as an EG member, he's not allowed to be. Actually, it seems you're ignorant to the situation. With NASL gone and SotG not getting the soundblaster sponsorship, Geoff is free to be on SotG. | ||
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EnderCraft
United States1746 Posts
On June 29 2011 18:30 Oreo7 wrote: You're ignorant to the situation. Geoff isn't of sotg because he doesn't have time, but because as an EG member, he's not allowed to be. No, your ignorant to the situation because that turned out not to be the case after the sponsorship deal didn't go through. He is allowed on SotG, the manager even said so in the ITG podcast. EG's exec manager did state however that their sponsors in particular were still wary about SotG. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
First off, by the same "standard" EG is held up for by some of the forumers, you should have listed the turn of events in correct chronological order. The way you did it would classify as "deceiving". + Show Spoiler + On June 29 2011 17:53 algorithm0r wrote: The facts as I understand them: SotG almost got sponsored by one of Complexity's sponsors. EG (or its sponsors) did not want EG members EG tried to get one of their sponsors to sponsor SotG so that EG members would not have a conflict with the show. SotG did not accept EG gave a raise to InControl about what he would have made if SotG was sponsored (which it wasn't) and SotG ended up not taking Complexity's offer as well. Eventually InControl realized he had bitten off more than he could chew and something had to go. EG and InControl decided that the most reasonable thing to go would be SotG for the obvious reason that InControl was being paid and for his other legally binding obligations (ItG, NASL, progaming) and that EG had no vested interest in SotG. InControl left SotG. InControl left NASL. InControl now has "permission" to return to SotG. You then proceed to call them out on what really is common business practice + Show Spoiler + On June 29 2011 17:53 algorithm0r wrote:My issue with how EG handles its sponsors and the SotG situation: EG's management or EG's sponsors (I suspect the management) is not very subtle in how they want their sponsorship promoted. Case in point: - EVERY interview with and EG member ends with a list of every sponsor. - EVERY SotG ends with a list of every EG sponsor. (The fact that I know that Intel, Steelseries, Bigfoot Networks, Monster Energy, Kingston Hyper X are all sponsors of EG is from this policy.) In contrast other teams are not so aggressive with their sponsors. My speculation is that this is because of different team policies or because of different types of sponsorship contracts. EG's management (and they claim their sponsors) have strong exclusivity feelings about sponsorship. That is, because EG is sponsored, they cannot appear on shows not sponsored by EG's sponsors, or at the least, they can't appear on shows that have sponsors in direct competition with one of their sponsors. Please name one organization or single person that does not promote their sponsors. I have always been under the impression that this is the whole idea of sponsorship- the only case being if popularity has risen beyond a certain threshold and there are simply too many sponsors to mention (as in traditional athletes or celebrities). For the next part, it's a logical continuation of assumptions, which are impossible to verify as an "outsider". + Show Spoiler + On June 29 2011 17:53 algorithm0r wrote:- While it was made to seem this is a perfectly obvious or reasonably policy on ItG, it is certainly not common, and I'd wager not even that common of EG. - Would EG not participate in a tournament (say MLG since it is sponsored by Astro equipment) because of a sponsor conflict? No. Because the sponsorship agreement between MLG and its sponsors does not prevent EG members from promoting their sponsors in interviews and the like. - Further, regardless of the potential sponsorship conflict on SotG, it is hard to argue that SotG is not one of the best venues for EG's sponsors (since the shout outs at the end of every show). So even the sponsorship answer does not seem 100% true to me. - What is not common? That sponsorship conflicts exist? That time issues exist? That contracts that have been signed must be satisfied? - Again, InControl was acting as a co-host, not a participating guest. That's a huge difference. Much like a soccer team wouldn't likely be able to land both sponsorships with Nike and Adidas, unless they are that popular. - Read Tyler's post regarding sponsorship deals. Bottom line is, they get very specific and complicated very fast. You conclude your post with a debatable stance on integrity- partly based on aforementioned flawed "facts". + Show Spoiler + On June 29 2011 17:53 algorithm0r wrote:I think integrity of character demands that the people at EG be up front with the real reasons behind this conflict, and my only thought on why they weren't is because there is something that would not be received well by the public in this case. InControl: I'm sure he wanted to say that his place on the team was the reason that he could not be on SotG as a pillar. He was unable to say it, presumably because of pressure from the team. I think the strongest character would come right out and say "I am leaving SotG due to conflicts between the wishes of my team and the show. While I wish to both be on SotG and maintain good standing with EG, EG is my employer and their wishes for me must take precedence. If they request I leave SotG I must." If this frank statement complicated things with EG then a strong character would stand up for their opinion (that he wanted to remain on SotG) and if the ramifications of being truthful cost him the job, I REALLY question the quality of EG. EG: I'm even willing to believe that the EG wanted to let InControl remain on SotG, but here I find it harder to believe that somewhere in the management there wasn't a desire to have things their way. I believe integrity on the part of EG would demand that if they were getting strong pressure from their sponsor to remove EG members from SotG due to content issues, or their affiliation with members of other teams possibly sponsored by competitors, or the fact that SotG itself may be sponsored by a competitor, they should take every effort to explain to the sponsor that SotG is a great venue for their promotion, and barring that, come out and say that a sponsor EG was unwilling to lose was applying strong pressure for InControl to leave. Further, I think any agreement with a sponsor that provided the sponsor with that much control over their team was shortsighted. To conclude I think that EG made a major faux pas possibly due to bad decisions made in management of their sponsor and players. I also think that InControl may have handled the situation a little better himself, but in his case I can understand the pressure that is placed on you by your employer. I am glad that EG has "allowed" InControl to return to SotG and I hope that he will do just that. He was a great part of that show. I also hope that if there comes a conflict between ItG and SotG that they make a reasonable attempt to accommodate both. First there is the misconception that the sponsorship conflict is the sole reason. If we would actually follow the facts strictly along their time line, resulting observations are: 1) Conflicting sponsors were the initial issue. 2) Efforts were made to resolve them, however didn't work out for whatever reason 3) A new show along with business arrangements were then created in order to compensate Geoff for this foreseeable income loss. 4) By the time the initial conflict has solved itself, Geoff was already head over heels committed. It would have been problematic for him and EG to drop out of existing contracts. Now, being at point 4) in time, it is highly debatable whether the initial conflict 1) (which was sorted out by then!) could be considered as the reason why Geoff dropped SotG. Granted, one could give either aspect different weight. But at least be so kind to present it as a personal interpretation of the events- not omitting the apparent time issue altogether. Next, "I am leaving SotG due to conflicts between the wishes of my team and the show. While I wish to both be on SotG and maintain good standing with EG, EG is my employer and their wishes for me must take precedence. If they request I leave SotG I must." Should rather be worded: "I am leaving SotG, because there is only so much hours of a day. While I would have liked to keep doing the show, my current obligations as a whole have been overwhelming. Unfortunately, you all know I am involved in a lot of sponsored work I get paid for. There are contracts to be satisfied. In order to find any more room otherwise, SotG had to give." - again, do consider the specific situation at the time 4). Last, regarding your view of EG there is still the benefit of the doubt. I would highly recommend checking http://1990truth.org/. You couldn't possibly know how deals are specified. Sponsoring is no charity. And exclusivity is business practice, no matter which way you look at it. Do note that "control" is pretty simple: $. We all wish for team houses, players being able to spend their day with practicing. Guess who pays that. It's no rocket science, really. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
If reading things right, apparently someone at Complexity tried to help JP get a sponsorship with Razor (most likely candidate). Geoff's contract with EG makes it so he couldn't actually have been a full time part of something sponsored by a major competitor (this is standard, so not surprising). To prevent this issue for Geoff, EG went out of its way to setup a similar deal with JP didn't take (or either deal for that matter, likely because he got picked up by MLG). EG, since it seemed that SOTG would take the deal, went out of its way, again, to give Geoff a raise & replace what he was going to lose with a new show. (So, they were trying to develop their player, like they should) JP doesn't take the deal and gets hired by MLG, but by that point, there were multiple contracts already set in place for OneMoreGame.tv and that was already in motion. Then Scoots & Geoff had a long discussion about how much he'd over extended himself, probably prompted by the trip to New York. In the end, Geoff decided to drop all but his main contractual duties and to focus on his Pro Gaming career. So, this is really just a lot of people having to make decisions and then circumstances changing. And that's not just life normally how? | ||
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rareh
Portugal298 Posts
On June 29 2011 10:01 quiet noise wrote: i dont really care im just happy its lead by djWHEAT and not JP. This definitely, JP is one of the worst hosts ever. | ||
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Stiluz
Norway688 Posts
On June 29 2011 19:48 Taf the Ghost wrote: So, this is really just a lot of people having to make decisions and then circumstances changing. And that's not just life normally how? Appearantly normal life suddenly becomes very interesting during summer vacation when people have more time on their hands, and things like this and the Destiny/Complexity stuff are blown completely out of proportion. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On June 29 2011 19:56 Stiluz wrote: Appearantly normal life suddenly becomes very interesting during summer vacation when people have more time on their hands, and things like this and the Destiny/Complexity stuff are blown completely out of proportion. Good point! | ||
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Owii
United States357 Posts
On June 29 2011 10:23 jmbthirteen wrote: I find it funny that people think they deserve full transparency in situations where they aren't involved in at all. How are we not involved? If Complexity and EG and etc are to be taken as serious companies, then aren't we the consumers? Don't consumers have the right to know what goes into the products that they are consuming? | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On June 29 2011 20:03 Owii wrote: How are we not involved? If Complexity and EG and etc are to be taken as serious companies, then aren't we the consumers? Don't consumers have the right to know what goes into the products that they are consuming? No, as you aren't a EG or Complexity consumer. You consume the product the Leagues put on. You're open to questioning those leagues, but the Pro Teams don't owe you anything. And, this is just simple business development. If you want to know a lot about that, go read the Wall Street Journal then get bored out of your mind. | ||
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