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On June 29 2011 13:25 CrossTheRiver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:On June 29 2011 12:53 CrossTheRiver wrote:
Also, people in the know, IE incontrol, JP, scoots, never said it was NOT about the money. I don't remember anyone outright declaring that money was not a motivating factor. What we did see was a lot of "needs more time to do other things".
Oddly, I have the opposite recollection. They continually denied that iNc leaving had anything to do with sponsor conflicts and what have you. That's why it's so frustrating for to now hear that this is exactly why iNc had to leave. I begrudge no one the right to make money. And I don't begrudge iNc the right to do whatever he wants to with his time. But as long as he markets himself as a personality (and that's exactly what he does, like it or not, when he streams and does podcasts), I do have a right to expect honesty from him. If he'd come out and said, "I have to leave SOTG because of sponsor conflicts and my obligation to do things for EG," that would've been fine. But that's not the song that was being sung a month ago. Actually you don't. Incontrol doesn't owe you, me, or anyone anything. It's our choice to follow him. Just because we tune into his stream doesn't automatically make him obligated to tell us anything. That said go watch the last SOTG episode again. It's very clear when JP mentions what is going on that all that is said is incontrol is moving on to other projects. I don't know how YOU do things, but I usually try to get my information directly from the source, and I try to ignore all the tangent sources of information, so when JP says incontrol is leaving because of "other projects" I believe him. And that's that. If there was a lot of talking about there being no sponsor conflict, that would probably be because there wasn't a sponsor conflict. Alex explained the whole thing. If you missed that I suggest you listen to the end of Inside the games most recent episode. Either way I find your sense of entitlement ridiculous.
Doesnt change that they lied. i udnerstand why incontrol had ot leave and sotg was on hiatus etc. but they still lied, got caught then attempted to PR it out. thats whats bugging me, i want transparancy or else i am disinclined to supporting the organization, had they been upfront i would have been totally ok. I have no reason to waste my time watching content produced by liars.
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On June 29 2011 13:25 CrossTheRiver wrote:
Actually you don't. Incontrol doesn't owe you, me, or anyone anything. It's our choice to follow him.
Just because we tune into his stream doesn't automatically make him obligated to tell us anything. That said go watch the last SOTG episode again. It's very clear when JP mentions what is going on that all that is said is incontrol is moving on to other projects. I don't know how YOU do things, but I usually try to get my information directly from the source, and I try to ignore all the tangent sources of information, so when JP says incontrol is leaving because of "other projects" I believe him. And that's that.
If there was a lot of talking about there being no sponsor conflict, that would probably be because there wasn't a sponsor conflict. Alex explained the whole thing. If you missed that I suggest you listen to the end of Inside the games most recent episode.
Either way I find your sense of entitlement ridiculous.
You take his words too literally. Esports shouldn't be compared to things like sports teams because its a much more interactive business. When people follow a sports team its usually because the team either represents their home city or because they like the players on the team. The difference between real sports and esports is that people like the players purely based off of their skill in real sports, however when you can actually communicate with players (through things like stream,chat shows) you follow players because of their personality and skill. What hes saying is that he follows and supports incontrol because he likes who incontrol is (in terms of skill/personality), and he expects honesty from incontrol because that is who incontrol is in his view. Also I don't see how anyone can say that stating a partial truth is better publicity then stating the whole truth. Just look at the past dramas between teams and the community.
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On June 29 2011 13:25 CrossTheRiver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:On June 29 2011 12:53 CrossTheRiver wrote:
Also, people in the know, IE incontrol, JP, scoots, never said it was NOT about the money. I don't remember anyone outright declaring that money was not a motivating factor. What we did see was a lot of "needs more time to do other things".
Oddly, I have the opposite recollection. They continually denied that iNc leaving had anything to do with sponsor conflicts and what have you. That's why it's so frustrating for to now hear that this is exactly why iNc had to leave. I begrudge no one the right to make money. And I don't begrudge iNc the right to do whatever he wants to with his time. But as long as he markets himself as a personality (and that's exactly what he does, like it or not, when he streams and does podcasts), I do have a right to expect honesty from him. If he'd come out and said, "I have to leave SOTG because of sponsor conflicts and my obligation to do things for EG," that would've been fine. But that's not the song that was being sung a month ago. Actually you don't. Incontrol doesn't owe you, me, or anyone anything. It's our choice to follow him. Just because we tune into his stream doesn't automatically make him obligated to tell us anything. That said go watch the last SOTG episode again. It's very clear when JP mentions what is going on that all that is said is incontrol is moving on to other projects. I don't know how YOU do things, but I usually try to get my information directly from the source, and I try to ignore all the tangent sources of information, so when JP says incontrol is leaving because of "other projects" I believe him. And that's that. If there was a lot of talking about there being no sponsor conflict, that would probably be because there wasn't a sponsor conflict. Alex explained the whole thing. If you missed that I suggest you listen to the end of Inside the games most recent episode. Either way I find your sense of entitlement ridiculous. You and I clearly have different understandings of what has happened here, because you can't possibly be saying that I should be okay with being lied to. I mean, that would be absurd.
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On June 29 2011 13:25 CrossTheRiver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:On June 29 2011 12:53 CrossTheRiver wrote:
Also, people in the know, IE incontrol, JP, scoots, never said it was NOT about the money. I don't remember anyone outright declaring that money was not a motivating factor. What we did see was a lot of "needs more time to do other things".
Oddly, I have the opposite recollection. They continually denied that iNc leaving had anything to do with sponsor conflicts and what have you. That's why it's so frustrating for to now hear that this is exactly why iNc had to leave. I begrudge no one the right to make money. And I don't begrudge iNc the right to do whatever he wants to with his time. But as long as he markets himself as a personality (and that's exactly what he does, like it or not, when he streams and does podcasts), I do have a right to expect honesty from him. If he'd come out and said, "I have to leave SOTG because of sponsor conflicts and my obligation to do things for EG," that would've been fine. But that's not the song that was being sung a month ago. Actually you don't. Incontrol doesn't owe you, me, or anyone anything. It's our choice to follow him. Just because we tune into his stream doesn't automatically make him obligated to tell us anything. That said go watch the last SOTG episode again. It's very clear when JP mentions what is going on that all that is said is incontrol is moving on to other projects. I don't know how YOU do things, but I usually try to get my information directly from the source, and I try to ignore all the tangent sources of information, so when JP says incontrol is leaving because of "other projects" I believe him. And that's that. If there was a lot of talking about there being no sponsor conflict, that would probably be because there wasn't a sponsor conflict. Alex explained the whole thing. If you missed that I suggest you listen to the end of Inside the games most recent episode. Either way I find your sense of entitlement ridiculous.
Are you saying he doesn't have a right to expect honesty from people, yet should always believe what they say as the absolute truth? And ignore any evidence that they might not have told the truth because it is a tangent source of info not from the direct source?
Why do you believe JP when you do not have the right to expect honesty from him?
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On June 29 2011 13:13 P0ckets wrote:
I am confused as to why there was a Sponsorship conflict. I mean if a sponsorship conflict were the real reason for him leaving, wouldn't that mean other EG members such as IdrA and Machine would have to do likewise? From what I understood from the choppy discussion the only person not allowed to continue was iNcontrol. Why is it only about him and not about all EG members. Other than that there should be no reason for why EG cannot put together their own show in a similar format. There are plenty of shows out there on TV with the same theme, topic, and setup. I mean just look at the thousands of thousands of reality shows that are just rehashes. The fact is, it is good to have both shows and even this drama between them because it will create a competition between the shows, and since they will both be fighting over an audience the shows will need to set themselves apart from the other increasing quality or uniqueness of the show. This in turn should increase the audience viewing each of these shows, which will increase sponsorship interest. This interest will only be beneficial to the community since it will promote esports in it's entirety.
The reason why iNcontroL was "singled out" as it seems to you is because he was an official co-host for the podcast. No other EG members were official co-hosts, but rather occasional guests. SirScoots has said (as can be seen in the infamous screen shot) that iNcontroL, and presumably other EG members, are allowed to be guests on shows such as State of the Game, despite the possible sponsorship conflicts. iNcontroL also said himself in the last episode that perhaps he would appear on State of the Game every now and then as a guest host.
So basically the difference resides in the fact that, as a co-host, iNcontroL was a direct representative of State of the Game, and if a sponsor of the show conflicted with EG's sponsors, EG management did not want iNcontroL representing that because they are in competition with the company that directly supports them. However, as occasional guests they don't really represent the show and their sponsors, so EG would allow that.
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On June 29 2011 13:32 VenerableSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:25 CrossTheRiver wrote:On June 29 2011 13:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:On June 29 2011 12:53 CrossTheRiver wrote:
Also, people in the know, IE incontrol, JP, scoots, never said it was NOT about the money. I don't remember anyone outright declaring that money was not a motivating factor. What we did see was a lot of "needs more time to do other things".
Oddly, I have the opposite recollection. They continually denied that iNc leaving had anything to do with sponsor conflicts and what have you. That's why it's so frustrating for to now hear that this is exactly why iNc had to leave. I begrudge no one the right to make money. And I don't begrudge iNc the right to do whatever he wants to with his time. But as long as he markets himself as a personality (and that's exactly what he does, like it or not, when he streams and does podcasts), I do have a right to expect honesty from him. If he'd come out and said, "I have to leave SOTG because of sponsor conflicts and my obligation to do things for EG," that would've been fine. But that's not the song that was being sung a month ago. Actually you don't. Incontrol doesn't owe you, me, or anyone anything. It's our choice to follow him. Just because we tune into his stream doesn't automatically make him obligated to tell us anything. That said go watch the last SOTG episode again. It's very clear when JP mentions what is going on that all that is said is incontrol is moving on to other projects. I don't know how YOU do things, but I usually try to get my information directly from the source, and I try to ignore all the tangent sources of information, so when JP says incontrol is leaving because of "other projects" I believe him. And that's that. If there was a lot of talking about there being no sponsor conflict, that would probably be because there wasn't a sponsor conflict. Alex explained the whole thing. If you missed that I suggest you listen to the end of Inside the games most recent episode. Either way I find your sense of entitlement ridiculous. Doesnt change that they lied. i udnerstand why incontrol had ot leave and sotg was on hiatus etc. but they still lied, got caught then attempted to PR it out. thats whats bugging me, i want transparancy or else i am disinclined to supporting the organization, had they been upfront i would have been totally ok. I have no reason to waste my time watching content produced by liars.
Are you saying JP lied when he said incontrol was moving on to other projects?
A lot of misinformation got put out there and that's all anyone can seem to quote. unless you have a direct quote from JP, or incontrol saying money had ZERO to do with it, then you cannot make a case they lied. They simply didn't tell you everything. And guess what, that's going to happen a lot...to all of us.
I don't know about you but I'd prefer to not be weighed down by the mundane business practices of various teams. That's not exciting. I don't mean to say that as spite to Alex, I'm sure he enjoys it, but the day to day operations of a team are just not interesting. What IS interesting is the players, and the games, and the events. So why everyone is all up in arms because EG didn't divulge every little detail to sooth the savage soul is just a front, totally covering up their feelings (rage?) that SOTG took a break. That's it.
You lost something you liked now you want someone to blame. But now we've heard directly from the source incontrol can be on SOTG, Alex reaffirmed that in the SOTG thread directly, People literally have NOTHING to complain about, yet here you are, claiming that you were lied to when you weren't.
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On June 29 2011 13:38 GeorgeForeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:25 CrossTheRiver wrote:On June 29 2011 13:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:On June 29 2011 12:53 CrossTheRiver wrote:
Also, people in the know, IE incontrol, JP, scoots, never said it was NOT about the money. I don't remember anyone outright declaring that money was not a motivating factor. What we did see was a lot of "needs more time to do other things".
Oddly, I have the opposite recollection. They continually denied that iNc leaving had anything to do with sponsor conflicts and what have you. That's why it's so frustrating for to now hear that this is exactly why iNc had to leave. I begrudge no one the right to make money. And I don't begrudge iNc the right to do whatever he wants to with his time. But as long as he markets himself as a personality (and that's exactly what he does, like it or not, when he streams and does podcasts), I do have a right to expect honesty from him. If he'd come out and said, "I have to leave SOTG because of sponsor conflicts and my obligation to do things for EG," that would've been fine. But that's not the song that was being sung a month ago. Actually you don't. Incontrol doesn't owe you, me, or anyone anything. It's our choice to follow him. Just because we tune into his stream doesn't automatically make him obligated to tell us anything. That said go watch the last SOTG episode again. It's very clear when JP mentions what is going on that all that is said is incontrol is moving on to other projects. I don't know how YOU do things, but I usually try to get my information directly from the source, and I try to ignore all the tangent sources of information, so when JP says incontrol is leaving because of "other projects" I believe him. And that's that. If there was a lot of talking about there being no sponsor conflict, that would probably be because there wasn't a sponsor conflict. Alex explained the whole thing. If you missed that I suggest you listen to the end of Inside the games most recent episode. Either way I find your sense of entitlement ridiculous. You and I clearly have different understandings of what has happened here, because you can't possibly be saying that I should be okay with being lied to. I mean, that would be absurd.
My position is you weren't lied to, you just didn't get all the details. Two different things.
But, let's say you were lied to...so what? I don't see any good coming from claiming unsubstantiated information as fact.
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On June 29 2011 13:35 MrDudeMan wrote:
Also I don't see how anyone can say that stating a partial truth is better publicity then stating the whole truth. Just look at the past dramas between teams and the community.
I don't want to get involved in all this drama, but stating the partial truth is almost ALWAYS better. It people told the whole truth and nothing but the truth there would be even MORE drama than there is already.
Something to keep in mind when your next girlfriend asks you if you like her friends or a cop asks you if you know how fast you were going. 
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On June 29 2011 13:16 coolcor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 12:53 CrossTheRiver wrote:On June 29 2011 12:40 nvs. wrote:On June 29 2011 12:29 djWHEAT wrote:On June 29 2011 12:08 r4pture wrote:
I don't believe ITG will ever reach the levels of SOTG, and this entire things continues to sour a lot of peoples (mine included) views of "big time" teams like EG and Complexity, simply because they are so wrapped in PR bullshit and making every penny they can, that no one can just go out and say something, it all has to be wrapped up in "political speech". Who isn't trying to make every penny they can? When did this become an illegal act? I don't get it. I see TL selling shirts, I wear those shirts on my shows hoping that others will buy them. Why? Cause I know that TL gets some money, the community gets to represent, and that all grows this space. (Plus I fucking love them) I really don't understand how that is so very difficult to understand? This whole world is built on that very concept, yet people seem reluctant and selective when it comes to that sort of thing. Do you think that Tyler wears his Stride gum patches for shits and giggles? Do you think Intel's logo on Dignitas' home page is there because they just don't like AMD? I could go on and on but it really just boils down to one thing: $$$ I'm guilty too. I want to make those pennies from eSports so I can make more content. So I can have shows on 7 days a week. All of the examples above are not bad things like you make them out to seem. Every single one of those things benefits the growth... so are you in? Or are you out? My main problem is that for a month now people were saying "it's not about money, it's not about money. It's about practice time and busy schedules" and then turns out hey, it is about money! Then everyone involved (including you) starts going ya, it's about the money, but so that fuck what. It just feels too much like people changing their tune to suit the music.  Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Couldn't it be both? I think we can all agree incontrol was getting stretched pretty thin there and something had to give. I know he mentioned on his stream he needs to spend more time with Anna and it's really hard to do that and practice enough, and do shows, and make money, and the list goes on. Also, people in the know, IE incontrol, JP, scoots, never said it was NOT about the money. I don't remember anyone outright declaring that money was not a motivating factor. What we did see was a lot of "needs more time to do other things". The truth of the matter is incontrol left some ambiguity there and JP wouldn't get into the details and people just made up their own nonsense in order to fill the void. DJwheat posted a lot making fun of the conspiracy theorists who said it was about the money. He even made fun of them on weapon of choice I think. Here is one post from reddit. Show nested quote +Sorry if it sounded like I was accusing you of some wrong doing. I didn't mean it that way, more to say that a lot of the stuff you have been doing lately is with team EG members and it could explain inControl's preference. Nothing shady.
[–]djWHEAT 12 points 1 month ago
I've also done alot with MLG, IPL, TeamLiquid, etc. Yes I absolutely enjoy working with EG. They are a company who has provided me work over the past 4 years, and it's no secret that SirScoots and I are good friends. But I think the "conspiracy" that people are throwing around is pretty silly because if there was this much "GODLIKE CONTROL" coming out of EG or OneMoreGame, wouldn't it make sense that either org told me I couldn't do MLG, IPL, TL, Tactics 3D, etc?
I completely understand where you were coming from with your statement, and hopefully people will consider every perspective instead of creating false drama/accusations (which seems to be a rising trend in eSports / Pro-Gaming).
Except it wasn't about the money. At the very least, people are blowing things out of proportion, by (themselves) defining it as the pivotal reason, disregarding the timeline of events. Put it that way: If Geoff didn't turn out to have time issues at all, he probably could have very well done both. As it stands, soon after things went over his head he decided to step back on as many commitments he could. Obviously these would be the ones he is not obligated to due to binding contracts. So yes, initially it was a sponsorship conflict, but that wasn't the issue at the time of his decision at all.
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On June 29 2011 10:01 Nimic wrote:
I like iNcontroL, but at some point the straw-man arguments need to end. He always feels the need to exaggerate the negative things/comments, or at least focus on them. Most of us aren't trying to troll you at all times. Some of us have more or less legitimate concerns. Ignore the people using ridiculous hyperbole or name-calling, insults, etc.
I have a weird feeling about EG. I like iNcontroL, most of the time (or rather most of the time I love him). I also like SirScoots, particularly after the interview at... Columbus? People like Machine and Axslav, I don't mind them at all. I do sort of dislike Idra, but I think most of the SC2 fanbase "sort of" dislikes Idra. But despite all of this, I don't like EG as an organization. I'm not sure it makes sense.
Just rereading the last ten pages or so trying to catch up on the comments on the end of the show, and I think you just summed up almost exactly what my overall opinion on EG has become over the last year or so.
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On June 29 2011 13:40 coolcor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:25 CrossTheRiver wrote:On June 29 2011 13:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:On June 29 2011 12:53 CrossTheRiver wrote:
Also, people in the know, IE incontrol, JP, scoots, never said it was NOT about the money. I don't remember anyone outright declaring that money was not a motivating factor. What we did see was a lot of "needs more time to do other things".
Oddly, I have the opposite recollection. They continually denied that iNc leaving had anything to do with sponsor conflicts and what have you. That's why it's so frustrating for to now hear that this is exactly why iNc had to leave. I begrudge no one the right to make money. And I don't begrudge iNc the right to do whatever he wants to with his time. But as long as he markets himself as a personality (and that's exactly what he does, like it or not, when he streams and does podcasts), I do have a right to expect honesty from him. If he'd come out and said, "I have to leave SOTG because of sponsor conflicts and my obligation to do things for EG," that would've been fine. But that's not the song that was being sung a month ago. Actually you don't. Incontrol doesn't owe you, me, or anyone anything. It's our choice to follow him. Just because we tune into his stream doesn't automatically make him obligated to tell us anything. That said go watch the last SOTG episode again. It's very clear when JP mentions what is going on that all that is said is incontrol is moving on to other projects. I don't know how YOU do things, but I usually try to get my information directly from the source, and I try to ignore all the tangent sources of information, so when JP says incontrol is leaving because of "other projects" I believe him. And that's that. If there was a lot of talking about there being no sponsor conflict, that would probably be because there wasn't a sponsor conflict. Alex explained the whole thing. If you missed that I suggest you listen to the end of Inside the games most recent episode. Either way I find your sense of entitlement ridiculous. Are you saying he doesn't have a right to expect honesty from people, yet should always believe what they say as the absolute truth? And ignore any evidence that they might not have told the truth because it is a tangent source of info not from the direct source? Why do you believe JP when you do not have the right to expect honesty from him?
Listen, what you believe and disbelieve is on you. That's all subjective to how you perceive things and how much actual fact finding you do. So in a sense, no, you don't have a right to expect honesty from anyone. let's understand what a "right" is. You have a "right" to watch their streams and to interpret their information however you please. But it is naive to the extreme or just absolute foolishness to expect and demand every particular detail about a mans life simply because you watch his stream and his show a couple times a week.
to me that is beyond reasonable.
Also, I don't go looking for lies and whatever else is going on. If someone tells me something, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. I like to call it not assuming things. I stay out of trouble this way.
But even so, let's say they lied...who cares? Does it change anything? Is your life somehow better or worse? Is SOTG on any faster? Really I just can't wrap my head around this absolute need to express a false sense of entitlement.
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But even so, let's say they lied...who cares? Does it change anything?
No, it doesn't change anything, but there's just so many lies and so much politicking going on in the real world that I lament its entry into my recreational activities. ^^
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DJwheat posted a lot making fun of the conspiracy theorists who said it was about the money. He even made fun of them on weapon of choice I think. Here is one post from reddit.
Wheat didn't know what was going on behind the scenes, he said that tonight on ITG. Criticizing him for those comments is not fair. Other people were also on that show who did know, lay your blame there.
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The bottom line is that what Incontrol and his business partners/bosses/sponsors do is their business. It must be difficult to be in the spotlight of a community with so many people attacking everything you say and do. If you feel upset by this incident I urge you to ask yourself why. Then really think if it's worth being upset over and try to put yourself in Geoff's shoes.
As Incontrol said on the last show, some things don't need to be detailed to the many people who listen to the show and follow what he does. He is a very open and community-oriented person but still deserves some degree of privacy and understanding.
I might be crazy but I feel like a lot of the people upset about being "lied to" are just upset he is no longer on SOTG.
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I think the real question here is this. Why didn't JP take the offer from EG? And why have we not received an answer to that?
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I'd like to step away from the shit talking for a minute,
and say thank your Mr. djWHEAT for your awesome work!
Much appreciated and noticed! <3
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On June 29 2011 13:56 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +DJwheat posted a lot making fun of the conspiracy theorists who said it was about the money. He even made fun of them on weapon of choice I think. Here is one post from reddit. Wheat didn't know what was going on behind the scenes, he said that tonight on ITG. Criticizing him for those comments is not fair. Other people were also on that show who did know, lay your blame there.
So it's ok for him to comment on the thoughts of other people without knowing what was going on behind the scenes, yet at the same time forum posters who make comments on people and events without knowing what's going on behind the scenes are apparently ignorant trolls. It's either one way or the other. =/
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On June 29 2011 13:55 nvs. wrote:No, it doesn't change anything, but there's just so many lies and so much politicking going on in the real world that I lament its entry into my recreational activities. ^^
Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast. Anytime business or money is involved, where personal image can affect people's ability to pay bills, there will always be a certain amount of public maneuvering. What EG did today however should totally dispel any notion that they did anything wrong.
in my opinion they did everything right and have been made into the scape goat. They are an easy target because certain other notable folks in the community have some specific beef with EG and a lot of people parrot the negativity without ever exploring what is really going on.
The good news for you my man, is you can so easily side step all this nonsense that there is no need to fret or lose sleep.
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I honestly can't believe people are saying things like "they lied to us"
Sometimes I just scratch my head at people in the community.
On June 29 2011 13:59 ElevenB wrote:
I think the real question here is this. Why didn't JP take the offer from EG? And why have we not received an answer to that?
I would assume that is has something to do with him working for MLG but at this point anything would be just speculation unless it comes from EG or JP.
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Seems to me EG is focusing more on the business side then they are on the gaming side. I can't really blame them there is money to be made right now and I think they are just trying to cash in as fast as possible before this bubble bursts.
It kinda seems that way for everything here in NA. Talk shows, coaching, tourneys, streams, youtube channels, twitter and facebook accounts... so many things in a very short time span. Cash in now when the irons hot, in 2-3 years when the Korean scene takes over, the bubble will burst, the companies will have made their money and the NA scene will dwindle in numbers and the only people remaining will be the truly passionate about sc2.
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EPT
