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My main issue with the OP is that his problems can be remedied without making any changes to the game. The detection range on an overseer is massive. Position it further back. If they want to snipe it you'll have units underneath with full surface area all of a sudden.
I think you've understated the importance of detection against zerg for protoss. Creep spread is both offensive and defensive. If we dont slow it down, it becomes almost impossible to ever attack.. there's a time table forcing us to get that robo against zerg. Roach burrow can also be used offensively so that was another thing I feel your post missed.
I also think you forgot to factor some things into the cost of the overseer. It still provides supply, it produces changelings, and it can contaminate buildings. They are quite useful.
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I don't know how many times I lost a game where I had a significant advantage because the Protoss blinked in sniped my overseers and killed me with DTs while other DTs were harassing 2 of my 5 bases. It is unbelievably frustrating to lose such games but the solution is very simple. You need to control your Overseers better. Have them in a different control group and float them behind your army (also have more than 1 maybe 2 or even 3). The DT harass can be easily stopped by an Overseer over the hatch (spores are too easily sniped by DTs) and 2 or 3 spine crawlers.
But after this constructive part of the post I want to get rid of my little rant: Why do these Overseers have to be so damn fat and slow, dammit!
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Zerg detection is fine, Idra lost that game because he was was incredibly tilted/choking and reloaded on pure hydra instead of a better unit comp. Complaining that overseers cost 150/100 is also a bit silly, as you will never have to make an overlord before making an overseer.
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Overlords getting detection with lair or overlord speed would be pretty imba. Zerg would have mobile detection literally everywhere on the map.
As a zerg player, I think zerg detection is perfectly fine. More zergs need to get into the habit of having spores and spines defending their expos (especially when they start reaching out further and further with 4th/5th/6th bases). You hardly ever see a protoss or terran take a 3rd/4th against zerg without proper defenses (turrets, planetaries, cannons etc.) so why shouldn't zerg start using more static defenses? Spines and spores are relatively strong and don't cost anything when you're on 4-5 bases.
Defensively, I think zerg is fine in terms of detection.
Offensively (to combat banshees/ghosts/dts) is where the biggest problems are. Overseers are expensive and they can get picked off easily. The problem is overseers are usually lumped into the same control group as everything else. This leads to them floating infront of the army and dieing quickly. Zergs need to start putting them in a separate control group and leaving them slightly behind the army.
I think this will only be an issue when terrans learn to start using cloaked ghosts to combat infestors (why the hell doesn't this happen? they use cloaked ghosts against templars... and ghosts are awesome against broods/ultras as well...). Why will this be a problem? Overseer? Snipe snipe snipe snipe dead. No more detection? Cloak and snipe/emp all infestors. Zerg will have a very very tough time when terrans start doing that.
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On April 27 2011 08:44 Buffy wrote:
Dont know, why are people mad at our detection ? If you've haven't gotten 4 gated, they dont have many sentreies, dont ahve air units, and the ingame timer is at 6:30 seconds, you can bet your ass there is going to be dts in your base in about 30 seconds. And lategame, not sure how you define it, but if you haven't scouted lategame and midgame etc you are really doing it wrong.
And sure the rush can anyone lose to the world is not perfect. But if you lose to it lategame and you've seen the council and no robo or not scouted or seen blinkstalkers with no exp. Or not responded properly to what you've seen. Then you deserv the loss really. And even if they go open blink stalkers you should just throw down a spore outside your natural, since 90% of the time someone is really going to make dts as a follow up if they aren't going colousses or exp.
And 2 spines and a spore is not much asked from someone when they're on 4 bases really. Just put it there.
And for someone mentioning blink, if you dont have fungal + micro your overseer properly you deserved the loss as well. My thoughts on the matter.
Scouting isn't the issue.
It isn't just about countering it by making some detection in each base and some spines, every new sc2 players can do that
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It is you have to make sure all your base are safe from the DTs throughout the whole game and also making overseers for battle. You can't move out too much until you have your overseer ready. That is going to delay almost all your push if your overseer were sniped.
These are all just because of one single unit type.
This unit is so effective that you have to prepare multiple investment to deal with it completely.
In an ideal world, certainly fungal blink stalkers is the perfect answer but that is totally just a perfect world setting.
That is like saying your infestors can never be fedback because fungal range and radius in combination is further away than feedback and you could kill them before they get into range
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So you guys think that spore crawler + spine crawler in base is less effective than turret + bunker (which requires food) and that overseer is less effective than scan?
I think that terran should complain more than zergs against lategame DT but i also think that protoss doesn't have a lot of lategame harass unit except the dt so it makes the game more interesting.
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On June 07 2011 04:31 Cosmos wrote:
So you guys think that spore crawler + spine crawler in base is less effective than turret + bunker (which requires food) and that overseer is less effective than scan?
I think that terran should complain more than zergs against lategame DT but i also think that protoss doesn't have a lot of lategame harass unit except the dt so it makes the game more interesting.
Terrans can lift off their orbitals or repair planetary while Zerg at best can get an inject or two in and even then 4+ dts can snipe a spore colony pretty fast then kill the hatch and whatever else.
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IDEA!
Make changelings detectors!!!
So when the fight starts, if you are fast enough you can spam changelings so that if they kill the overseer then you still have detection for a while. Besides, the changelings are very easy to kill if spotted to it still gives the toss the opportunity to deny scouting.
blizzard has already stated that they dont like the overseer and that they are already thinking about trimming it completely. That means they will be giving zerg a different kind of detection in heart of the swarm.
i also feel the overseer is a problem. Regarding overlords having detection after lair... That doesn't sound so bad. In bw they did from the start and yet there were plenty of place for dts in bw. And the dynamic could be the same. Instead of using corsairs, toss could use phoenix to kill the ovvies.
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On June 07 2011 04:31 Cosmos wrote:
So you guys think that spore crawler + spine crawler in base is less effective than turret + bunker (which requires food) and that overseer is less effective than scan?
I think that terran should complain more than zergs against lategame DT but i also think that protoss doesn't have a lot of lategame harass unit except the dt so it makes the game more interesting.
scans cant get killed and cost 50 energy, they also show the size of approx a steppes of war main
for a relatively long amount of time, i wouldnt be complaining about them
i find i have more detection issues when motherships are involved than dts
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i really hate the 10 detection range on everything ... but its kinda necessary and at the moment people are somewhat not able to keep their detectors save. Anyway burrow is not a solely defensiv ability ... you can use it offensiv pretty easily especially if the toss didn't got detection.
spores are also the best toss detection killers and now even mobile.
Btw ... detection is not needed in zvz and zvt for the zerg haha funny. And the overseer is pretty strong. no supply super mobile cna be at multiple places at once though only the flying part has detection. can slow down tech. (ever lost a battle vs the toss but sniped all his colossi, i perma blocked the robo with 2 overseers that had full energy hehe), just got to love hydra vs stalkers on creep. blink what ? kiting hydras ftw !
Zerg detection is far superior over the toss detection, only terrans are better when it comes to detection. But terran detection is the most expensiv at teh same time.
Really wonder why blizzard didn't like the overseer i always considered them imbalanced hehe, well except against ghosts, vs those ghosts you need spores xD.
Still waiting for players to start to use spores vs colossi on creep running near the colossi and burrowing hehe. best colossi tanks out there for zerg.
edit: oh for the funny zergs loosing because of the overseer snipe. Toss players had this problems since bw. observer killed by the nasty terror no more detection. You always needed some replacements a bit behind your army so you could just fly it in again and have detection again. This overseer snipe is really expensiv (especially if you take a queen along to snipe the observers) and if you have one replavement the toss lost like 10 stalkers for nothing.
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I think it's tougher for terran because they have to get ravens out for mobile detection or save up cc energy. I like overseers I just wish they weren't so slow without ov speed. My first one gets sniped a lot and I think 100 gas is kind of steep.
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Something I would like to see if when in mid-late game, against protoss especially and you have creep.
Bring spores with your army. Just 2-3 around your army and no observers can freely float around. It also slows down colossus a tiny bit and prevents hidden DT like MC vs IdrA
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god ive died to dts and banshees so many times... blizzard has stated that they are planning on reworking or removing the overseer so im sure this issue will be fixed.
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Overseers have more life and costs 0 food meaning you can get a few of them without having much of a drawback, and they have other abilities besides detect.
If stalkers are wasting time killing, it gives your army more time to attack, since dts are melee you don't need an overseer way up front.
Also theres no use comparing apples and oranges, like you did above, like a cannon to a spore crawler, a cannon cannot reposition and has lower life, etc.
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Folks at Blizzard think themselves that overseers suck. They are going to change with HotS.
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I think Blizzard mentioned the overseer being one of the units they plan to reform in heart of the swarm. But I think overseers aren't really the main priority for a Protoss army so a zerg who is careful with his overseer and who brings more than 1 should have no trouble mowing down the Protoss dts.
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On April 26 2011 20:58 Jacko11 wrote:
Very true, the overseer is way overpriced compared to the observer and is overall weaker, I mean at least the obs is cloaked
Obs can't poop a changeling and contaminate though.
IMO Overseers are fine, they're pretty quick and you can easily make several of them if you need them. The main problem I see is that Z are too reluctant to get more than one, which is understandable because of the gas cost, but spending a few hundred gas is way better than losing.
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It's kinda silly that Z has to invest a lot into detection late game against P simply because of the threat of sending DT's to each expo late game. Even then, having the detection doesn't even mean it will be successful. It's so easy for the DT's to snipe the spore crawler down even with a spine or two within vicinity. Obs are so much better than overseer because 1. they are less gas costly 2. CLOAKED! I can't even notice obs on creep most of the time and they just see everything. While an overseer is a gigantic floating balloon just asking to get sniped. Not to mention very easily run down by a few stalkers.
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it is easy only to see the pros of the other races and only the cons of yours...
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I don't understand whats with all the QQ tbh. An overseer costs a hell of a lot less than a shrine+DT and if you keep getting overseers sniped it's your own fault. Stalkers don't have a attack range of 10 learn to keep them at the back of your ball. 2 spines at a expo with a spore isn't that bad to shut down harass completely considering the cost per DT. Overseers are easy as hell to get and there is no excuse not to get them after lair tech. In comparison ravens require quadruple the gas and need to be from a tech lab starport and take a lot longer to get in a rush than overseers. Protoss need to halt Colossi production for observers and that is huge. Don't blame your race for your inability to prepare for inevitable dt harass and your inability to organize you unit's properly.
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EPT
