[D] Zerg Detection - Page 6

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

June 06 2011 18:12 GMT

#101

I feel like bumping this again due to the recent MC vs IdrA game in which MC had blink stalkers and DTs.
MC blinked and sniped the overseer and it was GG immediately. Recreating that overseer just takes too long when DTs are ripping your army apart. IdrA even tried to move that overseer away, but as I already pointed out months before: the overseer just accelaretes too slowly.
I acknowledge the fact that IdrA had no lings against his blink stalkers anyways, but this is not the point.

There is no reason why overlords don't have detection once you got lair tech or overlord speed.

ProxyKnoxy

United Kingdom2576 Posts

June 06 2011 18:16 GMT

#102

Zerg is pretty much the same as Terran in terms of detection... I think? A raven is pretty much an overseer (in terms of what they're generally used for) and missle turrets = spores. I don't really know what time you can get spores or overseers but Zerg is by no means underpowered in that aspect.

To the person above: No way should overlords have detection... That would just be ridiculous. They are so cheap and you can spread them all over the map... Just no that wouldn't work.

okrane

France265 Posts

June 06 2011 18:20 GMT

#103

On June 07 2011 03:16 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
No way should overlords have detection... That would just be ridiculous. They are so cheap and you can spread them all over the map... Just no that wouldn't work.

Broodwar would like to argue with you? You know? that uber sucessful video-game?

Oh and DTs were used in BW by the protoss especially against zerg... go figure

Scan?

xccam

Great Britain1150 Posts

June 06 2011 18:23 GMT

#104

On April 26 2011 20:57 Poststrata wrote:
I disagree. Having Detection all over the place by means of Overlords would make the fight for detection trivial. I think the reason Blizzard removed detection to begin with was to keep the games interesting and require more skill.

I do agree that overseers are easy targets, but that can be used as a trap for blink stalkers. Fungal + smart unit control (ie: running the overseer away xD) can lead to cool scenarios.

Yup, in brood war it took so little skill to stop DTs that they were NEVER an important part of any protoss build vs zerg...

Sixes

Canada1123 Posts

June 06 2011 18:24 GMT

#105

On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote:
Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.

I'll quote this to bring up my point but could have quoted any number of posts.

There are 2 key omissions in the fight against dts.

First and foremost, banelings do not need to detect to kill dts, this is very important especially given the dts are melee and die so easily to banelings (I believe this is the biggest reason why dt/phoenix doesn't develop, anything with mass dt would just get annihilated by banelings).

The second point is fungal. Not only it does damage but it reveals the units for a few seconds as well. This may seem a little micro intensive but any protoss who has had dts fungalled will tell you how much he enjoyed it.

Cyber_Cheese

Australia3615 Posts

June 06 2011 18:26 GMT

#106

Im not entirely convinced by this, think of how successful the bisu build is

mewbert

United States291 Posts

June 06 2011 18:26 GMT

#107

so you cant find a way to make 1+ sporecrawler and a few spines on 6 bases?

GinDo

3327 Posts

June 06 2011 18:29 GMT

#108

Last i Checked the overseer wash cheaper then a raven, and built faster then an obs and a raven. can be made from any overlord. And with changeling the games best scout in the mid to late game.

In BW DTs were more effective because Zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones like they do now in such a rediculous fashion. And yet zergs easily fended them off with sunkens and detection. Why you no build spines you greedy zergs.

Whats 1 less muta in comparison to being safe all game long. Not to mention that Roaches in PvZ is more popular and are mineral heavy thus zerg will always be heavy on the gas aspect.

p.s Overseers are faster then obs and ravens.

darkcloud8282

Canada776 Posts

June 06 2011 18:34 GMT

#109

If anything, protoss has the most troubles with detection. Vikings with 9 range can easily snipe your observer with a scan and then cloaked banshees go to town on your ground army.

Treemonkeys

United States2082 Posts

June 06 2011 18:34 GMT

#110

It seems to me in zerg late game it is very "easy" for zerg to afford the spores and spine crawlers that are needed, so I really don't see a problem. One spine and spore plus the queen per expo is realistically enough, you don't need two of each. Yes DT harass late game can be VERY effective but if zerg plays it out right it can also be worthless for the toss, I think zerg has plenty of time to just throw down safetly spines and spores without having to scout it. As far is DTs mixed in the army and overseer snipes, why isn't fungal enough to prevent this from happening? It seems to be at a pretty good skill requirement to me. DT's take a good amount of resources on top of the focus required to spread them out, it shouldn't be too easy for zerg to stop.

I also don't really see fungal as a good way to deal with them, unless the DT happens to be clumped with a bunch of other units it doesn't seem cost effective at all. I know I've definitely lost games by being forced to waste too much energy on DTs.

DuckS

United States845 Posts

June 06 2011 18:35 GMT

#111

There is no problem with Zerg detection. Control your Overseers better. PvT 1 scan with mass cloakshees and viking support I lose my "superior" (read: yes, you're whining) detection. I can guarantee this is also a lot more frustrating. Overseers cost more than Observers because they can stop my buildings from producing and create changelings ._. Also, just like my superior Observer, your Overseer can get speed upgrades. You can even create multiple Overseers, and again, control them better. Hell, you sound like you want to shut down DT play completely. And quite honestly, in the current state of the game, I feel like I can't win without DTs forcing the Z out of an engagement or keeping even on economic terms.

I read your intro and kind of laughed, honestly. At this rate, we're going to see P threads begging the question of "why can't our photon cannons uproot?" or "why do phoenix need energy to kill units when mutas can just a move?"

VTPerfect

United States487 Posts

June 06 2011 18:36 GMT

#112

firstly burrow is most certainly not a "defensive ability". Burrowed roaches are incredibly powerful offensively for their fast regeneration right, the utility of roach for being a front hitter allowing for heavy damage and fast reburrowing etc but everyone already knows this

secondly, A spore crawlers costs 75 minerals + drone. The DPS on the spore itself is very very cost efficient, even more so than a hydra. As well as the Spore has 400 hit points, this basically means that 1 spore and 2 spines at each of ur hatcheries will stop all but 5+ groups of DT's. Which is where the overseer comes in as its designed to be with ur army

Thirdly against Protoss specifically all their "cloak" units are melee, so even though the overseer itself cannot cloak there is little reason why it should be vulnerable.

Fourthly, Fungal Growth detects units as well which is probably the best spell in the game which allows you to go infestor vs pretty much every composition, if ur opponent goes dt and u go infestor tech you kind of build order win.

What I will give you is Mothership currently seems a bit powerful but seems how the strategy has only been employed twice in the GSL and both times the zerg were caught completely be surprize its too early to say there is a problem with Zerg Detection

Deleted User 61629

1664 Posts

June 06 2011 18:40 GMT

#113

--- Nuked ---

karpo

Sweden1998 Posts

June 06 2011 18:49 GMT

#114

Zergs need to stop asking for so much. Zerg did amazingly well in MLG yet this comes up and there's still people asking for better early game scouting. If zerg got everything they asked for the game would be broken as hell.

tsuxiit

1305 Posts

June 06 2011 18:51 GMT

#115

Lategame ZvP detection is completely ridiculous. It's so easy to pick off overseers (a 100 gas investment for the slowest, shittiest mobile detection in the game) that you need like 3 at a time, at any given time past the 15 minute mark. Not to mention the investment into protecting your distant expansions from DTs, 2 spores and 2 spines at each. The DT investment lategame is a guaranteed advantage for Protoss at a minimum, and completely game-winning if Zerg hasn't prepared perfectly for them (and by preparing perfectly Zerg sacrifices 300/400 gas that should be going into brood lords or corruptors, which puts them at a disadvantage if Protoss doesn't go DTs).

I feel like the mothership doesn't get discussed much, and I've only been in a mothership situation once or twice, but I find it kind of retarded that if Protoss manages to get a mothership and 100+ food army to where your base and mass of overlords are, you lose almost automatically. Protoss can kill your detection so easily and then retreat under the mothership, and you can't make more overseers because of the massive time investment and the proximity to their army.

Big G

Italy835 Posts

June 06 2011 18:59 GMT

#116

On June 07 2011 03:49 karpo wrote:
Zergs need to stop asking for so much. Zerg did amazingly well in MLG yet this comes up and there's still people asking for better early game scouting. If zerg got everything they asked for the game would be broken as hell.

...but IdrA lost a game to DTs, and that is enough to generate a dozen balance threads. :D

As someone pointed, the same happens when a Terran scans for observer and enjoys his cloaked banshees/ghosts.

At the very least, fungal is a viable option in late game.

Rasun

United States787 Posts

June 06 2011 19:00 GMT

#117

I mean, yeah the races have different forms of, and different strengths and weaknesses in their detection. Races are supposed to have strengths and weaknesses. Your nitpicking every little aspect of the races, they are supposed to be different. If our detection has carbon copies for every race with only the names of the units changes this game would be boring and race choice would mean nothing.

FrodaN

754 Posts

June 06 2011 19:04 GMT

#118

On June 07 2011 03:51 tsuxiit wrote:
Lategame ZvP detection is completely ridiculous. It's so easy to pick off overseers (a 100 gas investment for the slowest, shittiest mobile detection in the game) that you need like 3 at a time, at any given time past the 15 minute mark. Not to mention the investment into protecting your distant expansions from DTs, 2 spores and 2 spines at each. The DT investment lategame is a guaranteed advantage for Protoss at a minimum, and completely game-winning if Zerg hasn't prepared perfectly for them (and by preparing perfectly Zerg sacrifices 300/400 gas that should be going into brood lords or corruptors, which puts them at a disadvantage if Protoss doesn't go DTs).

I feel like the mothership doesn't get discussed much, and I've only been in a mothership situation once or twice, but I find it kind of retarded that if Protoss manages to get a mothership and 100+ food army to where your base and mass of overlords are, you lose almost automatically. Protoss can kill your detection so easily and then retreat under the mothership, and you can't make more overseers because of the massive time investment and the proximity to their army.

Overseers are faster than Ravens. They are made from Overlords which you should have an abundance of late game. They morph faster than an observer/raven and you can't even warp in observer to the spot you need it unlike an overlord. You also get spells with your detector like changeling to help scout the area around, even if it dies instantaneously upon arrival to the base. Observers can't stop production of units either. Ravens have offensive abilities, but they cost 100-125 more gas and are a T3 unit. All you need for Overlords is a NECESSARY tech path (lair) while Toss HAS to go in a certain tech pattern to get there.

2 spores + 2 spines will require a task force of 4+ DTs to kill it. That's a 600/600 investment that could easily be killed off and backfire. That's 1 inject cycle for a 150 mineral queen as well as the 400 minerals which Zergs seem to have an abundance of late game anyways.

Please stop exaggerating and injecting this thread with unbelievable bias/blindness. Zerg may have problems, but detection is not one of the main ones.

Confuse

2238 Posts

June 06 2011 19:11 GMT

#119

I have to completely disagree with the op here. The whole point of detection/invisible units is to create a dynamic that allows for different priorities during battles. Different races get different detectors with different +/-'s. Just because you think one is better does not make it better then the others.

If you do end up seeing dts, maybe you should consider more than 1 overseer? If a protoss has to snipe 3-4 overseers during a battle I think it would not be towards his benefit with your whole army bearing down on him. This happened a lot in BW (ob sniping needed to defend with lurkers), and continues to be a part of what makes P v Z interesting. I don't think this portion of the argument (1 overseer easy to snipe) has any weight.

Diks

Belgium1880 Posts

June 06 2011 19:12 GMT

#120

A slight buff to the overseer would be to give changeling detection and a make so that the cooldown before death only starts when he has shapeshifted.
Even with this buff I'm pretty sure the overseer/changeling would still be unused...

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