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On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote:
Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
Dat 1 armor makes overseers quite beefy. You'd be surprised. Also, DTs and getting to DTs is significantly more expensive than their T1 counterpart.
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zerg have it easiest imo. vs dts terran have to rely on scan, which runs out pretty quickly. ravens require starports with tech labs which can easily be swapped, but require time and lose out on medivac production. protoss have to make multiple observers which hinder colossus production. cannons are terrible in pvp. zerg can instantly make as many overseers as they need as long as they have the resources for it. i don't see where your complaint is coming from when you look at the other races detection abilities :/
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On April 27 2011 05:12 Zeke50100 wrote:
Protoss players need to build Robos in order to even get detection, which is a huuuge detriment to every Templar-focused build. In addition to that, even building an Observer means your Colossus is delayed that much more (or Immortals or Warp Prism, whatever is more pertinent at the time). Protoss cannot simply smash out a large number of Observers to compensate for losing any without hurting the production of units they would otherwise want/need. Not to mention that Protoss has no detection unless they go for a specific tech tree (it's not like Observers can be gotten at Cybernetics Cores, like Lair).
Terrans give up Mules and/or Supply Drop (yes, they're usable >.<), which is a huge opportunity cost in itself. It's about as available (actually, even moreso, due to the lack of a gas requirement) than Overseers, since Lairs and Orbital Commands are somewhat synonymous. Terran does have Ravens, but it's about as useful as an Overseer in terms of detection (actually, it's slower), although it does provide support at a greater level than Contaminate does. Terran doesn't get a static defense that can handle cloaked ground units other than PFs, so they actually need units to defend against things like DTs and sneaky Infestors and the like. EMP is there, too, to handle Banshees, but getting Ghosts in TvT is...not as optimal.
Terrans have the most accessible detection, but at the same time, their only real cloak-harassment is the Banshee, which is shut down by a single Cannon/Spore/Missile Turret (not to mention they also can't shoot up, so Observers, Ravens, and Overseers beat them).
Zerg can get Overseers at Lair, which is pretty accessible unless you're going for a no-gas build. Unlike Observers (and Ravens), you CAN slam out multiple Overseers if you feel the need to, and you will (or rather, should) always have an Overlord around ready for emergency duty (as opposed to being hit by DTs while your Colossus is 80% done on your only Robo ). Spore crawlers are basically just moving Missile Turrets, so nothing special there.
Really, you sacrifice vitality for accessibility if you're a Zerg in terms of detection. Yes, losing an Overseer is pretty bad because you lose supply, but that's akin to losing an Observer at a critical moment (i.e. you absolutely need one) while your Robo is halfway done building something else. It's not all about cost.
When you lose an Observer you dont lose anything you'd need for killing something invsible, that is able to attack. Sure, roaches can burrow now and heal up and if you decide to not move your army then they can get a good position, but in most cases I think the protoss will retreat to his base where he will at least have one cannon. But there's not really that need to go back home, although in some situations it might be a good idea.
Whereas losing an overseer, which is btw easier to kill, which in fact is the huge point I'm making, leaves you behind against DTs that WILL own you if you dont retreat immediately. While retreating you might see your army getting force fielded to be slit to death. You cannot move out unil you get that overseer again or your army will just evaporate.
Losing an observer is bad, but it's not as crucial as losing an overseer. This combined with the fact that it's easier to lose that very same overseer creates the design flaw I'm talking about. While needing detection more badly it's easier to deny.
One way to solve that issue is to give Zerg plentys of easily killable detectors, so it doesn't matter that much when you lose one. That's how it was in BW and I think that's how it should be in SC2. But ofc I don't want to remove the possibility of DT rushing from the game so I would introduce overlord detection with lair tech or overlord speed.
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you act like overseers are just flying around and spotting dts without any sort of zerg army to back it up. yeah man its not invisible, so you have to micro it behind your army. the detection range is pretty big.
put it on a different hotkey from your army and make sure it cant get sniped.
and zerg is the only race with detection on the general tech path, how can you complain about that??? so dumb.
ps. phoenix DT isnt used much because roaches will push your shit in
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There is a lot of flaws in your argument so I only skimmed through the rest..... the first flaw I seen is that zerg can have burrow for the offensive, such as infestors and roaches, and burrowed banes in probe lines, burrowed scouting lings, etc etc.
Solutions to probably most of what you wrote:
1.) Scout more
2.) Keep your overseer behind your army, not just a click it into death, always wise to have 2-3 overseers, and can even put those to great use around the map scouting and delaying colossus/immortal/stargate production!!!!
3.) Possibly as the game gets more advanced we will see more creep spread and at the usual battleground digging in a couple spores and spines behind your army, could complement it very well.
4.) Stop complaining about the game and find new ways to do things, or just get better!
I don't think anything should be changed in this regard... spores and spines are actually pretty beefy defense for rather cheap, not to mention there are queens usually at every hatch along with a spore + two spines should be sufficient in the late game, which is what, 225 minerals + 3 drones? Not really that much for a solid defense, which you should have a couple spines at far off expansions anyways to prevent them from being sniped. I have always though of spores and spines being more efficient in resources than protoss / terran detection. Because protoss would rather make colossus or immortals, not observers, and cannons get less efficient imo in the late game as you have to mass cannon a base against roaches if that is your detection path. Terran has a lot of ways for detection but all of them are completely inefficient, terran rather would have mules, no mules = terribly hard time expanding and having a steady production cycle, ravens are so gas heavy, and terran would rather have thors, tanks, vikings, or even upgrades most of the time, and turrets would rather be spent in units, and the terran would rather have pfs be an orbital.
There are problems with all races with this, but that in essence is what makes the game interesting, fun, and difficult.
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On April 27 2011 05:15 FabledIntegral wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade increases Overseer speed too?!
Yes, from 1.875 to 2.75
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i guess blizzard is kinda taking this into accnt with the new patch, Spores reburrow in 6 sec rather than 12 but i dont really see how this helps much other than against banshee harass (not much of a buff at all). I agree with OP on this zerg detection issue.
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all overlords should have detection like they did in sc1 kk
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spores arn't a big deal, you HAVE to build evo chambers anyways. And that additional spine crawler is not necessary until you move the majority of your army outside of base. Really, 1 spore is all it takes to ward off a early DT rush. Additional queens also help. And late game when your army is out romping, you've got more than enough additional minerals to slam down spore/crawler at each expo and then free up supply for brood morphing.
Yes overseers are expensive and somewhat easy to kill and cost us supply, so I wouldn't mind a slight cost decrease. As for overseers getting sniped and then DTs rape your army, even if you make regular ovis detect, that problem would still be the same.
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On April 27 2011 06:00 GizmoPT wrote:
all overlords should have detection like they did in sc1 kk
yeah, sounds like a good idea (im srs).
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Zerg detection is fine. It's pretty much impossible to not have detection in time unless you don't scout the dt/banshee/ghost. Even then, it's quite easy to get an overseer before major damage is done. If anything protoss has it the worst since they have to choose a specific tech path and cannot morph detectors in any location they have overlords. Cannons may be more versatile but being able to morph detection anywhere you have an overlord is extremely valuable.
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Losing an observer is bad, but it's not as crucial as losing an overseer. This combined with the fact that it's easier to lose that very same overseer creates the design flaw I'm talking about. While needing detection more badly it's easier to deny.
I disagree with every point your making here. Losing detection is the same for both Z and P, you cannot engage your opponents army without it (assuming Z has Roaches/infestors with the burrow movement and that P has DTs or Mothership, though MS is a diff story really).
It's equally as easy to lose detection as P or Z (long as Z has an overseer with army), the trick is to NOT keep your detection in the same hotkey as your army because thats a surefire way to have it get killed. Almost no one (even the Top pros atm) is very careful with detection but as it becomes more and more important players need to learn to adapt and just skim into sight range with their detection rather than throw it on top of the battle. Granted Blink is a great way to pick off Overseer, but thats why you keep overseers with an army so that a blink and FF will net you free units.
Its such a shame that a majority of the community has the mentality "This is soo hard for XvY as X, Blizz needs to make this and that different" rather than trying to adapt to how the game is currently and finding new ways around problems. I understand that sometimes things are actually imbalanced, but playing with the idea that YOU need to be better is going to get you sooo much further than trying to suggest changing the game to suit how you want to play it.
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Overseers should have the parasite spell Queens had in BW, each parasite attached to an enemy unit should communicate with its Overseer and reveal a small sight radius (4-5) around it for the Zerg. If that overseer dies, so does the parasites. Otherwise the unit will stay effected until it is killed. The spell should cost 125 energy.
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you can make spore crawlers and them in your army. they're WALKABLE.
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On April 27 2011 07:53 ElusoryX wrote:
you can make spore crawlers and them in your army. they're WALKABLE.
They don't detect while uprooted.
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i wouldnt mind overlords having detection like in sc1 only if they also bring back corsairs 
in all seriousness, i think the gas cost of overseer should be reduced, along with duration of contamination.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Funny, because, I was reading this thread this morning then I had a ZvsP game later on. My opponent went for phoenixes early then later made 5-6 dts and marched them into my base. All of a sudden, I get a warning and see my slings+roaches getting killed. I realize what's happening and move my army back as close as possible to my spore and then morph an overseer. He follows within range of my new overseer and the dts are history. From then on, I just kept some with my army but made a lot more overseers in my base. I almost always make sure that I have 2 spores+1-2 crawlers near each hatchery incase of a dt attack or banshee harass, etc.... I think OLs having detection like in BW was really extreme, much prefer to have to make the decision whether to make an OL an overseer
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just wanted to point out that burrowed banelings against protoss is VERY fucking strong, you have no idea. I've been going this build that counters 3 gate sentry expand where I get like 2-3 spines, lings and 5 banelings with burrow and put them in a place where the sentries will walk over and BOOM, suddenly his timing push with sentries is destroyed. I clean up with spines and lings, and follow it up with 2 base muta pressure.
Seriously, fuck roach burrow to counter sentries, go baneling burrow, they won't have observers if they are doing the build, play greedy so they have to move out and detonate your banes over his sentry ball.
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Dont know, why are people mad at our detection ? If you've haven't gotten 4 gated, they dont have many sentreies, dont ahve air units, and the ingame timer is at 6:30 seconds, you can bet your ass there is going to be dts in your base in about 30 seconds. And lategame, not sure how you define it, but if you haven't scouted lategame and midgame etc you are really doing it wrong.
And sure the rush can anyone lose to the world is not perfect. But if you lose to it lategame and you've seen the council and no robo or not scouted or seen blinkstalkers with no exp. Or not responded properly to what you've seen. Then you deserv the loss really. And even if they go open blink stalkers you should just throw down a spore outside your natural, since 90% of the time someone is really going to make dts as a follow up if they aren't going colousses or exp.
And 2 spines and a spore is not much asked from someone when they're on 4 bases really. Just put it there.
And for someone mentioning blink, if you dont have fungal + micro your overseer properly you deserved the loss as well. My thoughts on the matter.
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I think the real question about zerg detection is why did they originally have an abundance of detection? What was it about zerg that made the old blizz team say "hmm, let's tie mobile detection to a very basic macro need so that they just naturaly get them"?
And how does taking this away impact the way the race is played?
The way I see the overseer is as a replacement for the broodwar queen because its the zerg flying caster now and the two spells that it has are compareable. Changeling is essentially parasite just different but they're both used for scouting. Contaminate is the new take on infest command center. However ensnare was by far the most useful ability that the queen had and even then it rarely warrented its cost in gas. I feel that that is even more so the case with the overseer except for it is now the zerg detector so you have no choice but to get it.
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EPT
