EPTLowering the cost of the overseer might change ZvZ drastically. Remember the 3 OS strat from Zenio vs IdrA on DQ? Imagine if Overseers were cheaper, you would'nt be able to inject a single time anymore - no matter how many macro hatches you threw down.
[D] Zerg Detection - Page 3
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
Lowering the cost of the overseer might change ZvZ drastically. Remember the 3 OS strat from Zenio vs IdrA on DQ? Imagine if Overseers were cheaper, you would'nt be able to inject a single time anymore - no matter how many macro hatches you threw down. | ||
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
dealing with blink stalkers sniping your overseer? i have a question for you: how do you deal with blink stalkers in general? why has blizzard patched the game long ago to not let stalkers blink away, when they got fg'd? and if they blink forward and snipe your overseer: just kill some of them, they cant blink away immediately. if you are smart, you have more overseer around after scouting DTs. detection vs terran is much more of a problem now. you will experience much more ghost play after patch 1.3.3, they got buffed seriously. and ghosts will snipe your overseer, go into cloak, EMP your infestors, snipe your sporecrawler, drop nukes on your hatches and snipe your broodlords as fast as you can say "wtf?" btw: an observer costs 25/75, not 75/25 And dont forget: every race has tactics, that lead to a fast gg when not scouted. and these are not the cloaked units, because every race has to protect itself from cloaked/burrowed units. the burrowed roaches/infestors are as deadly as every cloaked unit without detection. burrowed zerglings can deny expos. the list goes on and on. i am much more worried by the ghost buff. | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
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arterian
Canada1157 Posts
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Tuneful
United States327 Posts
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Cellophane
United States27 Posts
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
On April 26 2011 22:05 BurningSera wrote: i m working on a big post on discussing whats the fundamental design flaws of sc2 zerg and one of the point is the detection. i agree most of what you said there(will probably credit you when i am done with my post). so ill just keep my points here lightly: 1. there is a freaking reason sc1 zerg have overlord as detector. because hatch is extremely important - production center for combat/econ units, and our tech structures are extremely fragile(you can cut off 1 unit from our production easily with the sniping by dts). sc1 zerg is so 'uncheesable' because the race is too vulnerable to cheese/invi. sc1 zerg base is more solid, you dont have to constantly worry about all type of cheese until certain time point. best example is unscouted 2port banshee can gg you at 7-8mins. 2.the cost of overseer is highly questionable. seriously. (far)less practical functions as raven, way expensive than obs(especially that 100gas is fatal to zerg since all our units are heavy gas-dependent), the most fragile and highest risk detector of 3 races (we need it for scouting and most of the time we lose it ie overlord/8supply = lose 1 larva too ffs). i always put down a spore and spine at my base/expo/3rd nowadays to prevent the desperate late dt play in pvz ._. How is the cost of an overseer questionably high? It costs 25/25 more than an observer, but you can build an infinity amount of them just by getting a lair. Protoss players have to get a robo, and losing an observer means you'd have to stop producing colossus just to get another. Terrans have to tech starport with tech lab to get a 100/200 paper airplane if they don't want to waste energy on scans instead of mules. Overseers have the most HP, are easiest to build, and you don't have to use them directly for scouting due to changelings, which works just as well as observers for keeping track of an army, provided the opponent didn't see you drop them. They're also very fast if you get OL-speed, which is a great upgrade even if you don't build overseers. | ||
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Avalain
Canada308 Posts
As for overseers taking a long time to morph, I'd actually argue that build time is one of our strengths as Zerg. An observer takes over twice as long to build and is always going to start out from wherever the robo fac is. Basically, you can't be reactionary with observers. If you don't build them proactively then you are likely going to lose the game. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote: if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable. Just because no one usually does it (Zerg are too dumb to get burrow sometimes ... although that changes slowly) does not mean its a bad idea. Protoss are "arrogant" and usually only have one Observer on the whole map. This can be used easily to punish them by hunting that observer and then baiting the Protoss into a trap. Zealots and Sentries are light units and get the full damage from Banelings ... and both are the truly dangerous units to Zerglings. Banelings can also be burrowed at a potential third expo of the Protoss ... right in the mineral line. If that Protoss isnt building cannons there you will probably be able to kill a whole line of Probes ... As for the whining about detection, well its an imperfect universe, but Zerg can get their detection for a minimal cost outside the regular path ... by just upgrading the hatchery to a lair and then getting an Overseer which doesnt even require any supply capacity. Both other races do not have that luxury for their mobile detectors ... Terrans might not want to build an Engineering bay or prefer a Reactor on their Starport all the time and Protoss might be going for all in "mass Gateway units style" without upgrades or Robotics; Zerg will always want that Lair. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
But since it is a zerg complaining about detection in pvz i suppose ... overseer got sniped hehe and dts came in. You have a semi mobile building for detection, detection range is 10, so sniping detecion is always combined with suiciding units. So mothership or ghosts/ banshees might be a threat. But never a meele unit. PS: you can snipe observers too (might be invisible but fungal has a huge range) and then your units can abuse burrow like crap, so its not like you can't do the same to the toss. PPS: overseers are casters and way more versatile scouting units then observers. Haven't seen an observer being able to be at 5 spots at the same time. | ||
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kardinal
Sweden154 Posts
Considering the parallels you draw between zerg and protoss. Zergs "pay" 25/25 for the convenience of having easy access to detection wherever you want after lair tech while protoss are pigeoned into robo early game. And that in my book is more than fair. Us zergs have some issues but detection is not even close to being one of them. | ||
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meep
United States1699 Posts
On April 26 2011 23:41 fire_brand wrote: bring back overlord detection and you make the game so much easier for zerg. But probably too easy. For Blizzard, nothing is too easy. Look at World of Warcraft.  | ||
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Rabbitmaster
1357 Posts
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
My suggestion was to always include overlord detection with the speed upgrade that way DT rushes are still a viable option but mid game - to late game you need to be a bit more tactical. Right now I feel it's just to strong. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless. Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100. | ||
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kathode
United States265 Posts
But yeah in all seriousness there is a problem with Zerg detection. Bringing overlord detection back would change the game too drastically though. | ||
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bramapanzer
83 Posts
That was one of the most important racial traits that zerg had in BW; the ability to detect cloaked units easier than any other race. Why go from easiest detection to hardest? It's still called starcraft.... | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Once upgraded, the Overlord remains the same (the model included) but it can detect stealth. The upgrade would be cheaper than getting an Overseer (at the cost of Overseer speed) but the opponent would not know which Overlords can detect stealth and which cannot. Keep in mind though that all races have their mobile stealth detection quite far up the tech tree. Observers are available the fastest, but serve no other purpose (and die quickly to other detection) Ravens take the longest to get and are the most expensive (which is why scan exists) but provide secondary abilities Overseers can made from any Overlord, making them ALWAYS available quite rapidly and with 200 health and 1 armor, they can survive most encounters. The only real problem I see is early stealth detection for Zerg, but I feel that should depend more on the Zerg scouting properly (with a sacrificial Overlord if needed) and getting a Spore Crawler if needed than to change the actual detection. | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On April 26 2011 21:29 spad12 wrote: I actually think that defending expos against late game DT's is even more of a problem than dealing with them in the army. I recently played a ZvP on Tal'darim where I went from 6 bases (4 mining) to 0 bases in a matter of minutes. I had 1-2 spores and 2-3 spines at each expo, but even that doesn't do much against 4 or so upgraded DTs. DT's do 26.6 dps with +3 per upgrade. Late game, with +2 or +3 attack upgrades, DT's do a whopping 35.6 dps, as much as a freaking battle cruiser!!!!! but not affected by armor as much as BC's are. I need to do some tests to see how many spines you need to kill 4-5 DT's, but I'm pretty sure that it will be more than 2-3. 4 DT's with +3 will kill a hatchery in about 12 in game seconds. 4 of them will 2-shot a spine crawler, and 1-shot a queen. They kill things far too quickly to react let alone move an army across the map. By the time that you can get enough units + overseer to the DT's they are long gone and all that is left is the poor larva lying on a bed of quickly receding creep. =( If he has that much invested in DTs......then just go kill him, he has no tech. | ||
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