EPT[D] Zerg Detection - Page 2
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
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O.Golden_ne
Australia204 Posts
you also have to take into account that different races require different styles of play, INCLUDING microing you're army into the most effective placement. eg. dont let them snipe you're overseer. or incorporate infestors into your mix. also, remember that each race has its own strengths and weaknesses. that being said: i'd happily enjoy a buff to zerg detectors. however, i'd prefer a buff to overseers that would make them more viable. i think they should be able to use 'infested terran' like they could in the BETA | ||
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Fir3fly
Australia251 Posts
zerg has more to detect, while less( as in weaker) to detect with. another issue is the fact that they also provide supply so are more of a target as protoss. the contaminate ability, while cool, is largely unused so basically they're just sitting, expensive, ducks i think making the cost of the overseer cheaper (im thinking 25/25 :3) would be nice, considering its losing creep+drops (+time). but gaining detection and contaminate. but thats just my idea, im retarded when it comes to these things xD | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On April 26 2011 21:21 bendez wrote: I think the real problem is that zerg is so gas dependent that they can't spare any for "unnecessary" units/buildings like overseers and nydus. Blizzard is making terrans less dependent on gas (viking and ghost cost change).. how about some love for zerg? I don't think that zerg is super gas dependent, but we're not using queens, extra hatches and speedlings enough. I feel like Zerg is pretty damned powerful right now, still fragile though. | ||
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
I recently played a ZvP on Tal'darim where I went from 6 bases (4 mining) to 0 bases in a matter of minutes. I had 1-2 spores and 2-3 spines at each expo, but even that doesn't do much against 4 or so upgraded DTs. DT's do 26.6 dps with +3 per upgrade. Late game, with +2 or +3 attack upgrades, DT's do a whopping 35.6 dps, as much as a freaking battle cruiser!!!!! but not affected by armor as much as BC's are. I need to do some tests to see how many spines you need to kill 4-5 DT's, but I'm pretty sure that it will be more than 2-3. 4 DT's with +3 will kill a hatchery in about 12 in game seconds. 4 of them will 2-shot a spine crawler, and 1-shot a queen. They kill things far too quickly to react let alone move an army across the map. By the time that you can get enough units + overseer to the DT's they are long gone and all that is left is the poor larva lying on a bed of quickly receding creep. =( | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On April 26 2011 21:29 spad12 wrote: I actually think that defending expos against late game DT's is even more of a problem than dealing with them in the army. I recently played a ZvP on Tal'darim where I went from 6 bases (4 mining) to 0 bases in a matter of minutes. I had 1-2 spores and 2-3 spines at each expo, but even that doesn't do much against 4 or so upgraded DTs. DT's do 26.6 dps with +3 per upgrade. Late game, with +2 or +3 attack upgrades, DT's do a whopping 35.6 dps, as much as a freaking battle cruiser!!!!! but not affected by armor as much as BC's are. I need to do some tests to see how many spines you need to kill 4-5 DT's, but I'm pretty sure that it will be more than 2-3. 4 DT's with +3 will kill a hatchery in about 12 in game seconds. 4 of them will 2-shot a spine crawler, and 1-shot a queen. They kill things far too quickly to react let alone move an army across the map. By the time that you can get enough units + overseer to the DT's they are long gone and all that is left is the poor larva lying on a bed of quickly receding creep. =( The 2 spores 2 spines suggestion was meant to be able to fend of 1 to 2 DTs. If he invests that mcuh then hes army should be significantly weaker or he lacks something else. | ||
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LagLovah
Canada552 Posts
Dts are useful sure, but if i put them in my army as a significant investment i will lose whatever advantage they give me quickly if you realise it and pull back to make an overseer. The annoyingness of contaminate cant be overstated as well. Its a huge gamble for me to make 4 dts midgame to attempt to take out a 3rd. If you have spine/spore there, or your army is close and i dont realise it, it costs me 600gas + shrine cost for no gain. In a matchup dominated by gas as your mineral only units (zealots) do nothing, this can be game ending for you, you actually really need that gas to make the key units to expand past your natural. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
That being said, lategame DT harass should be dealt with using one well placed spore and one spine at every base. If you have problems with DTs hitting your main army, make multiple overseers. The production of overseers is simple; all overlords can become them. Protosses do not have that leisure. See? All races are different. | ||
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SlipperySnake
248 Posts
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AimForTheBushes
United States1760 Posts
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Fir3fly
Australia251 Posts
On April 26 2011 21:33 Wolf wrote: All races are not the same. Don't compare thir detection as if they should be. That being said, lategame DT harass should be dealt with using one well placed spore and one spine at every base. If you have problems with DTs hitting your main army, make multiple overseers. The production of overseers is simple; all overlords can become them. Protosses do not have that leisure. See? All races are different. they also cost 50/100, waste supply if they die, and are very weak and slow. detection is something that shouldn't be the "same" but should be balanced in their own unique way. + Show Spoiler + terran even get a cast if they're caught off guard | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
Think of the following: if you see a DT heading towards you, what do you do? (1) wait till 150/100, grab an overlord and morph it (2) wait till 50/100, grab an overlord and morph it. Yes, the Overseer does cost 150/100 in total, but you always have spare overlords, i.e. 100 minerals of that have already been paid and will always be paid, no matter whether you do decide to get Overseers or not. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On April 26 2011 21:46 JustPassingBy wrote: You cannot say that an overseer cost 150/100 like a cannon would cost 150. Think of the following: if you see a DT heading towards you, what do you do? (1) wait till 150/100, grab an overlord and morph it (2) wait till 50/100, grab an overlord and morph it. Yes, the Overseer does cost 150/100 in total, but you always have spare overlords, i.e. 100 minerals of that have already been paid and will always be paid, no matter whether you do decide to get Overseers or not. But if it dies I will lose supply cap and have to remake an overlord, which is 100. The mineral cost aint the important cost anyways in most cases. | ||
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
On April 26 2011 21:31 decaf wrote: The 2 spores 2 spines suggestion was meant to be able to fend of 1 to 2 DTs. If he invests that mcuh then hes army should be significantly weaker or he lacks something else. I mean is another 300 gas really that big of a deal? If it can be used to completely deny expansions or force 5-6 spines and 1-2 spores at each base, might it still be worth it? Hell, just the gas mining time lost while building a new hatch is worth the investment of 300 gas, maybe even 600. If you have to rebuild a hatch you lose out on about 380+ gas, in addition to the larva production from that hatch. Even disregarding 4+ DT's, 2 DT's can still do significant damage, I don't think 2 spines will hold off 2 +3 attack DT's will they? | ||
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Mactator
109 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
1. there is a freaking reason sc1 zerg have overlord as detector. because hatch is extremely important - production center for combat/econ units, and our tech structures are extremely fragile(you can cut off 1 unit from our production easily with the sniping by dts). sc1 zerg is so 'uncheesable' because the race is too vulnerable to cheese/invi. sc1 zerg base is more solid, you dont have to constantly worry about all type of cheese until certain time point. best example is unscouted 2port banshee can gg you at 7-8mins. 2.the cost of overseer is highly questionable. seriously. (far)less practical functions as raven, way expensive than obs(especially that 100gas is fatal to zerg since all our units are heavy gas-dependent), the most fragile and highest risk detector of 3 races (we need it for scouting and most of the time we lose it ie overlord/8supply = lose 1 larva too ffs). i always put down a spore and spine at my base/expo/3rd nowadays to prevent the desperate late dt play in pvz ._. | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
However, I don't think there is a simple solution to the problem, and comparisons to Brood War are pointless. If you know they can be sniped easily, then you have to be careful to protect your overseers and constantly make them as needed. You need to think of it in a problem-solving sort of way, rather than a balance discussion. | ||
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Ohdamn
Germany765 Posts
they just forgot about the overseer... a small cost decrese would be more than enough | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On April 26 2011 22:12 DoubleReed wrote: Maybe if Overseers were beefier or faster maybe they couldn't be sniped as easily. However, I don't think there is a simple solution to the problem, and comparisons to Brood War are pointless. If you know they can be sniped easily, then you have to be careful to protect your overseers and constantly make them as needed. You need to think of it in a problem-solving sort of way, rather than a balance discussion. using the fundamental concept of zerg from bw is still valid for sc2 zerg because this race is/should be fundamentally the same. and detection is a fundamental element of the race. and i am afraid in order to solve the problem they will need to figure whats wrong first (balance discussion). OP did a gj in trouble shooting. | ||
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