I'm bumping quite an old thread but due to the removal of the overseer I think it might be time to start discussing things again.
I think the viper replacing the overseer brings along a couple of new problems. This is only based on theory though, but I'm fairly sure I'm right about it. One can only imagine that the Viper is further up the tech tree than the overseer. I think we can all agree that a flying spell caster will at least be lair tech and probably need some kind of other building to be made. Now the overseer was Zerg's only mobile detection and it was essential when taking a third base vs DT play. You could not get the third up if you hadn't removed the DT that was waiting at the expansion. With the the removal of the overseer and the addition of the Viper I think Zergs now have to wait significantly longer in order to take that third.
Other problems like scouting difficulties that derive from not having that overseer will be left out for now. What do you guys think?
Hello!
I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ. This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.
First of all, let's take a look at what kind of detection capabilities Zerg got: Spore Crawler - Static defense that loses detection when unrooted; requires evo chamber; only hits air and costs 125 (including the drone) Overseer - Flying unit (fast but with crappy acceleration); costs 150 100; speed upgradeable Infestor Fungal Growth
In comparision the Protoss detectors: Cannon - Static defense; requires forge; hits both air and ground and costs 150 Oberserver - Flying unit; costs 25 75 (and more importantly robo build time), speed upgradeable
What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep
The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable. The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).
Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.
The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad. At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors. Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild: Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)
The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.
Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.
Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.
I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.
What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed? That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
I disagree. Having Detection all over the place by means of Overlords would make the fight for detection trivial. I think the reason Blizzard removed detection to begin with was to keep the games interesting and require more skill.
I do agree that overseers are easy targets, but that can be used as a trap for blink stalkers. Fungal + smart unit control (ie: running the overseer away xD) can lead to cool scenarios.
While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better?
On April 26 2011 21:00 norterrible wrote: While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better?
I dont want the DT to be nerfed in any way. I just think that the overall concept of the Overseer is bad and that there's a better solution.
If you keep the overseer in the middle/back of the army, blinking to kill the overseer is kind of suicide. The protoss will lose much more than the zerg. Upgraded roaches eat upgrades stalkers alive. And if you add fungal it's just sad.
Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
On April 26 2011 21:00 norterrible wrote: While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better?
And I don't like this mindset of thinking that every discussion must be dismissed with a "learn to play".
Seriously if you are not interested in the discussion or just flat out refuse it... don't read it, don't post in it... noone is forcing you to come here and spread hate.
Edit: also want to add that since the recent Infestor's buff it's harder to handle DTs with them because of the reduction of paralyzed time. I use DTs a lot and noticed how much better they are with this new fungal.
This is one of the least talked-about aspects of Zergs massive loss of utility from BW to SC2. Both DTs and cloaked Wraiths saw most use against Zerg, who had overwhelming amounts of detection due to overlords.
Now Banshees are about 100x more useful than Wraiths and DTs are slightly less useful than before, but overlords lost their detection and now require a massive gas dump for the same thing.
Whenever people figure out how to consistantly abuse Zergs lack of detection, I think Zerg players are in for a world of hurt.
This detection discussion seems to be getting more and more prevalent, however I never run into problems with DT's until P stall late-game by sending dt's throughout the map to do damage. I don't really know what I think of the proposed changes you make or the current state of Zerg detection.
We can also reveal cloaked units with Fungal Growth. Great against DT's since they are melee and have low health to begin with. I use Fungal as my main detection in late game.
On April 26 2011 21:00 norterrible wrote: While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better?
And I don't like this mindset of thinking that every discussion must be dismissed with a "learn to play".
Seriously if you are not interested in the discussion or just flat out refuse it... don't read it, don't post in it... noone is forcing you to come here and spread hate.
No one is forcing you to respond to my post either, yet you decide to let me know how much you don't like it. He asked what we thought, I told him. Not a very useful discussion if only the people that like the idea respond. And what if we had a thread like this for every single aspect of the game? At what point is it time to just learn to get better?
You mention FG in the beginning but somehow neglect it later...it's a form of mobile detection that is not that bad.
I agree that Overseer are not that good for their price, but when you have Ovi Speed and take care of your Overseers(so that they do NOT run in front of your army) it's not easy to snipe them with blink, especially if you already have FG.
Where did you get 200/100 cost from? Overseers are 50/100, and you don't have to rebuild an overlord for morphing one into an overseer. The benefit of an overseer is that you can morph one in anywhere on the map, provided you spread your OL's, which you should, and they also have underused abilities that grant extra scouting and stops production. With the speed upgrade, which is good in all MU's, they're insanely fast. Keep them in the back of your army and they seldom get sniped, and if they do, the toss loses DPS from their stalkers trying to kill it.
On April 26 2011 21:00 norterrible wrote: While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better?
And I don't like this mindset of thinking that every discussion must be dismissed with a "learn to play".
Seriously if you are not interested in the discussion or just flat out refuse it... don't read it, don't post in it... noone is forcing you to come here and spread hate.
No one is forcing you to respond to my post either, yet you decide to let me know how much you don't like it. He asked what we thought, I told him. Not a very useful discussion if only the people that like the idea respond. And what if we had a thread like this for every single aspect of the game? At what point is it time to just learn to get better?
I'm not pretending that everyone that post here likes the OP's idea but if you are gonna jump here with a "l2p" you could at least suggest a way to do that or solutions to the OP's problem or just even contribute to the discussion with your ideas.
I could have just PM'ed you about this but I felt like posting it directly on the forum was better since it's not the first time that I have to witness stuff like that, I'm sorry if I'm annoying.
On April 26 2011 21:12 sushiman wrote: Where did you get 200/100 cost from? Overseers are 50/100, and you don't have to rebuild an overlord for morphing one into an overseer. The benefit of an overseer is that you can morph one in anywhere on the map, provided you spread your OL's, which you should, and they also have underused abilities that grant extra scouting and stops production. With the speed upgrade, which is good in all MU's, they're insanely fast. Keep them in the back of your army and they seldom get sniped, and if they do, the toss loses DPS from their stalkers trying to kill it.
You are right, morphing one is only 50 100, dunno where I got that from. Adding the Overlord cost this makes 150 100. Thanks
I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
I think the real problem is that zerg is so gas dependent that they can't spare any for "unnecessary" units/buildings like overseers and nydus. Blizzard is making terrans less dependent on gas (viking and ghost cost change).. how about some love for zerg?
one can complain that the observer has cloak, but you're not taking into account the special abilities of the overseer. i think this is what bumps up the price of the overseer.
you also have to take into account that different races require different styles of play, INCLUDING microing you're army into the most effective placement. eg. dont let them snipe you're overseer. or incorporate infestors into your mix. also, remember that each race has its own strengths and weaknesses.
that being said: i'd happily enjoy a buff to zerg detectors. however, i'd prefer a buff to overseers that would make them more viable. i think they should be able to use 'infested terran' like they could in the BETA
Im really glad this thread exsists. zerg has more to detect, while less( as in weaker) to detect with.
another issue is the fact that they also provide supply so are more of a target as protoss.
the contaminate ability, while cool, is largely unused so basically they're just sitting, expensive, ducks
i think making the cost of the overseer cheaper (im thinking 25/25 :3) would be nice, considering its losing creep+drops (+time). but gaining detection and contaminate.
but thats just my idea, im retarded when it comes to these things xD
On April 26 2011 21:21 bendez wrote: I think the real problem is that zerg is so gas dependent that they can't spare any for "unnecessary" units/buildings like overseers and nydus. Blizzard is making terrans less dependent on gas (viking and ghost cost change).. how about some love for zerg?
I don't think that zerg is super gas dependent, but we're not using queens, extra hatches and speedlings enough. I feel like Zerg is pretty damned powerful right now, still fragile though.
I actually think that defending expos against late game DT's is even more of a problem than dealing with them in the army.
I recently played a ZvP on Tal'darim where I went from 6 bases (4 mining) to 0 bases in a matter of minutes. I had 1-2 spores and 2-3 spines at each expo, but even that doesn't do much against 4 or so upgraded DTs.
DT's do 26.6 dps with +3 per upgrade. Late game, with +2 or +3 attack upgrades, DT's do a whopping 35.6 dps, as much as a freaking battle cruiser!!!!! but not affected by armor as much as BC's are. I need to do some tests to see how many spines you need to kill 4-5 DT's, but I'm pretty sure that it will be more than 2-3.
4 DT's with +3 will kill a hatchery in about 12 in game seconds. 4 of them will 2-shot a spine crawler, and 1-shot a queen. They kill things far too quickly to react let alone move an army across the map. By the time that you can get enough units + overseer to the DT's they are long gone and all that is left is the poor larva lying on a bed of quickly receding creep. =(
On April 26 2011 21:29 spad12 wrote: I actually think that defending expos against late game DT's is even more of a problem than dealing with them in the army.
I recently played a ZvP on Tal'darim where I went from 6 bases (4 mining) to 0 bases in a matter of minutes. I had 1-2 spores and 2-3 spines at each expo, but even that doesn't do much against 4 or so upgraded DTs.
DT's do 26.6 dps with +3 per upgrade. Late game, with +2 or +3 attack upgrades, DT's do a whopping 35.6 dps, as much as a freaking battle cruiser!!!!! but not affected by armor as much as BC's are. I need to do some tests to see how many spines you need to kill 4-5 DT's, but I'm pretty sure that it will be more than 2-3.
4 DT's with +3 will kill a hatchery in about 12 in game seconds. 4 of them will 2-shot a spine crawler, and 1-shot a queen. They kill things far too quickly to react let alone move an army across the map. By the time that you can get enough units + overseer to the DT's they are long gone and all that is left is the poor larva lying on a bed of quickly receding creep. =(
The 2 spores 2 spines suggestion was meant to be able to fend of 1 to 2 DTs. If he invests that mcuh then hes army should be significantly weaker or he lacks something else.
If you think that the only use of an observer vs zerg is to fight 'defensive abilities' then you have never played vs mass roach. Some zergs at a higher level will go so far as to bring a couple hydras with their army to snipe observers so their roaches have free reign over your army if you move out. Also if you ever lose your observer when you go to attack you are forced back into your base (depends on your army size and comp) as you cannot kill roaches that are microed with burrow.
Dts are useful sure, but if i put them in my army as a significant investment i will lose whatever advantage they give me quickly if you realise it and pull back to make an overseer. The annoyingness of contaminate cant be overstated as well. Its a huge gamble for me to make 4 dts midgame to attempt to take out a 3rd. If you have spine/spore there, or your army is close and i dont realise it, it costs me 600gas + shrine cost for no gain.
In a matchup dominated by gas as your mineral only units (zealots) do nothing, this can be game ending for you, you actually really need that gas to make the key units to expand past your natural.
All races are not the same. Don't compare thir detection as if they should be.
That being said, lategame DT harass should be dealt with using one well placed spore and one spine at every base. If you have problems with DTs hitting your main army, make multiple overseers. The production of overseers is simple; all overlords can become them. Protosses do not have that leisure.
It seems like by the time DT harass is actually viable most zerg are sitting on a bank of 2000 minerals and gas with a maxed army just sitting there. It would just be nice to see like 10 overseers morphed if there is any hint of DTs. The cost just doesn't seem like an issue at all, basically DT harass seems just about right to me. If you have trouble with it that is fine but there are a bunch of solutions as people have posted so I disagree that this is a balance or gameplay issue.
When will people ever understand how badass Overseers can be - you can basically halt production if you get a few of them and add them to your macro checklist ("after spreading creep", for example). Also, don't forget about changelings (free scouts) - seers are probably the most under-utilized unit in the game, currently - especially with the resurgence of raven builds..
On April 26 2011 21:33 Wolf wrote: All races are not the same. Don't compare thir detection as if they should be.
That being said, lategame DT harass should be dealt with using one well placed spore and one spine at every base. If you have problems with DTs hitting your main army, make multiple overseers. The production of overseers is simple; all overlords can become them. Protosses do not have that leisure.
See? All races are different.
they also cost 50/100, waste supply if they die, and are very weak and slow.
detection is something that shouldn't be the "same" but should be balanced in their own unique way.
You cannot say that an overseer cost 150/100 like a cannon would cost 150. Think of the following: if you see a DT heading towards you, what do you do? (1) wait till 150/100, grab an overlord and morph it (2) wait till 50/100, grab an overlord and morph it.
Yes, the Overseer does cost 150/100 in total, but you always have spare overlords, i.e. 100 minerals of that have already been paid and will always be paid, no matter whether you do decide to get Overseers or not.
On April 26 2011 21:46 JustPassingBy wrote: You cannot say that an overseer cost 150/100 like a cannon would cost 150. Think of the following: if you see a DT heading towards you, what do you do? (1) wait till 150/100, grab an overlord and morph it (2) wait till 50/100, grab an overlord and morph it.
Yes, the Overseer does cost 150/100 in total, but you always have spare overlords, i.e. 100 minerals of that have already been paid and will always be paid, no matter whether you do decide to get Overseers or not.
But if it dies I will lose supply cap and have to remake an overlord, which is 100. The mineral cost aint the important cost anyways in most cases.
On April 26 2011 21:29 spad12 wrote: I actually think that defending expos against late game DT's is even more of a problem than dealing with them in the army.
I recently played a ZvP on Tal'darim where I went from 6 bases (4 mining) to 0 bases in a matter of minutes. I had 1-2 spores and 2-3 spines at each expo, but even that doesn't do much against 4 or so upgraded DTs.
DT's do 26.6 dps with +3 per upgrade. Late game, with +2 or +3 attack upgrades, DT's do a whopping 35.6 dps, as much as a freaking battle cruiser!!!!! but not affected by armor as much as BC's are. I need to do some tests to see how many spines you need to kill 4-5 DT's, but I'm pretty sure that it will be more than 2-3.
4 DT's with +3 will kill a hatchery in about 12 in game seconds. 4 of them will 2-shot a spine crawler, and 1-shot a queen. They kill things far too quickly to react let alone move an army across the map. By the time that you can get enough units + overseer to the DT's they are long gone and all that is left is the poor larva lying on a bed of quickly receding creep. =(
The 2 spores 2 spines suggestion was meant to be able to fend of 1 to 2 DTs. If he invests that mcuh then hes army should be significantly weaker or he lacks something else.
I mean is another 300 gas really that big of a deal? If it can be used to completely deny expansions or force 5-6 spines and 1-2 spores at each base, might it still be worth it? Hell, just the gas mining time lost while building a new hatch is worth the investment of 300 gas, maybe even 600. If you have to rebuild a hatch you lose out on about 380+ gas, in addition to the larva production from that hatch.
Even disregarding 4+ DT's, 2 DT's can still do significant damage, I don't think 2 spines will hold off 2 +3 attack DT's will they?
I don't see the problem. DTs are such a huge investment that they have to pay off to be viable in any sense and pretty useless if you scout a protoss player getting them since spores are cheap (two spines each base is an overreaction btw. with creep you should be able to get there pretty fast). They are also gas expensive as a late game unit and easy to kill (2 dts cost 250 gas which is even more than a collosus) . Remember that zerg has to be nerfed in some way to account for their amazing ability to macro and get a huge economy in a short time. Getting detection in the right time is just good zerg skills. Not a direct issue. So in my opinion: DTs can kill you for sure but a risky protoss move that they can use when they are behind. zerg can counter it easily with spores, creep and overseers so no problem imo.
i m working on a big post on discussing whats the fundamental design flaws of sc2 zerg and one of the point is the detection. i agree most of what you said there(will probably credit you when i am done with my post). so ill just keep my points here lightly:
1. there is a freaking reason sc1 zerg have overlord as detector. because hatch is extremely important - production center for combat/econ units, and our tech structures are extremely fragile(you can cut off 1 unit from our production easily with the sniping by dts). sc1 zerg is so 'uncheesable' because the race is too vulnerable to cheese/invi. sc1 zerg base is more solid, you dont have to constantly worry about all type of cheese until certain time point. best example is unscouted 2port banshee can gg you at 7-8mins.
2.the cost of overseer is highly questionable. seriously. (far)less practical functions as raven, way expensive than obs(especially that 100gas is fatal to zerg since all our units are heavy gas-dependent), the most fragile and highest risk detector of 3 races (we need it for scouting and most of the time we lose it ie overlord/8supply = lose 1 larva too ffs).
i always put down a spore and spine at my base/expo/3rd nowadays to prevent the desperate late dt play in pvz ._.
Maybe if Overseers were beefier or faster maybe they couldn't be sniped as easily.
However, I don't think there is a simple solution to the problem, and comparisons to Brood War are pointless. If you know they can be sniped easily, then you have to be careful to protect your overseers and constantly make them as needed.
You need to think of it in a problem-solving sort of way, rather than a balance discussion.
On April 26 2011 22:12 DoubleReed wrote: Maybe if Overseers were beefier or faster maybe they couldn't be sniped as easily.
However, I don't think there is a simple solution to the problem, and comparisons to Brood War are pointless. If you know they can be sniped easily, then you have to be careful to protect your overseers and constantly make them as needed.
You need to think of it in a problem-solving sort of way, rather than a balance discussion.
using the fundamental concept of zerg from bw is still valid for sc2 zerg because this race is/should be fundamentally the same. and detection is a fundamental element of the race.
and i am afraid in order to solve the problem they will need to figure whats wrong first (balance discussion). OP did a gj in trouble shooting.
Phoenixes take ages to kill overseers since theyre armored (the same reason stalkers do so well against t hem) and infestors will own phoenixes pretty hard. Lowering the cost of the overseer might change ZvZ drastically. Remember the 3 OS strat from Zenio vs IdrA on DQ? Imagine if Overseers were cheaper, you would'nt be able to inject a single time anymore - no matter how many macro hatches you threw down.
ZvP detection ist ok, DTs come out in the midgame, you should really have some spores and spines at your base then. the overseer in your army prevents any observer scouting, so what is your point? dealing with blink stalkers sniping your overseer? i have a question for you: how do you deal with blink stalkers in general? why has blizzard patched the game long ago to not let stalkers blink away, when they got fg'd? and if they blink forward and snipe your overseer: just kill some of them, they cant blink away immediately. if you are smart, you have more overseer around after scouting DTs.
detection vs terran is much more of a problem now. you will experience much more ghost play after patch 1.3.3, they got buffed seriously. and ghosts will snipe your overseer, go into cloak, EMP your infestors, snipe your sporecrawler, drop nukes on your hatches and snipe your broodlords as fast as you can say "wtf?"
btw: an observer costs 25/75, not 75/25
And dont forget: every race has tactics, that lead to a fast gg when not scouted. and these are not the cloaked units, because every race has to protect itself from cloaked/burrowed units. the burrowed roaches/infestors are as deadly as every cloaked unit without detection. burrowed zerglings can deny expos. the list goes on and on.
Yet another balance complaint thread in SC2 General. Do we really need this? The poster even dismisses FG as useless against cloaked units, just to push an agenda. Detection methods are available for all three races, it's simply a matter of using them.
If the Protoss has DTs, Blink Stalkers, and High Templar to Feedback your Infestors, I think you have a different problem other than Zerg detection capabilities.
I disagree with the characterization of burrow as a defensive ability. (E.g. burow-move roaches vs forcefield and infestors burrowing to sneak about undetected while setting up for a worker harass)
not sure if anyone's said this, but i'd say that the overseer is better than the observer in many ways that make up for the fact that it's not cloaked. for one thing, you always have tons of overlords floating around, so essentially, the overseer takes 17 seconds to build. also, the observer has 40 health, 20 shields, and the overseer has 200 health. you don't need to tie up an important production structure (in fact, it doesn't use up any larva that hasn't already been used), and if you need a detector at each base or something, you can slam out as many as you need/can afford very quickly. not to mention, it has the changeling ability, as well as the contaminate ability. in terms of the overseer dying really fast, yes, it does, but if you prepare for that and keep it behind your army, that's not a big deal. also, if your opponent is going for dts, their army is going to be smaller (unless they had the game won anyway), so blinking into an engagement with a larger force is a horrible idea, especially if you have several overseers. frankly, the only time i have problems with detection as zerg is when i just play poorly
On April 26 2011 22:05 BurningSera wrote: i m working on a big post on discussing whats the fundamental design flaws of sc2 zerg and one of the point is the detection. i agree most of what you said there(will probably credit you when i am done with my post). so ill just keep my points here lightly:
1. there is a freaking reason sc1 zerg have overlord as detector. because hatch is extremely important - production center for combat/econ units, and our tech structures are extremely fragile(you can cut off 1 unit from our production easily with the sniping by dts). sc1 zerg is so 'uncheesable' because the race is too vulnerable to cheese/invi. sc1 zerg base is more solid, you dont have to constantly worry about all type of cheese until certain time point. best example is unscouted 2port banshee can gg you at 7-8mins.
2.the cost of overseer is highly questionable. seriously. (far)less practical functions as raven, way expensive than obs(especially that 100gas is fatal to zerg since all our units are heavy gas-dependent), the most fragile and highest risk detector of 3 races (we need it for scouting and most of the time we lose it ie overlord/8supply = lose 1 larva too ffs).
i always put down a spore and spine at my base/expo/3rd nowadays to prevent the desperate late dt play in pvz ._.
How is the cost of an overseer questionably high? It costs 25/25 more than an observer, but you can build an infinity amount of them just by getting a lair. Protoss players have to get a robo, and losing an observer means you'd have to stop producing colossus just to get another. Terrans have to tech starport with tech lab to get a 100/200 paper airplane if they don't want to waste energy on scans instead of mules. Overseers have the most HP, are easiest to build, and you don't have to use them directly for scouting due to changelings, which works just as well as observers for keeping track of an army, provided the opponent didn't see you drop them. They're also very fast if you get OL-speed, which is a great upgrade even if you don't build overseers.
I'm just tossing it out there, but if you know that DT's are mixed into the main army then banelings can be very useful. I've used banelings to take out the zealot front line before and found out that DTs were mixed in only after watching the replay.
As for overseers taking a long time to morph, I'd actually argue that build time is one of our strengths as Zerg. An observer takes over twice as long to build and is always going to start out from wherever the robo fac is. Basically, you can't be reactionary with observers. If you don't build them proactively then you are likely going to lose the game.
On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote: if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable.
Just because no one usually does it (Zerg are too dumb to get burrow sometimes ... although that changes slowly) does not mean its a bad idea. Protoss are "arrogant" and usually only have one Observer on the whole map. This can be used easily to punish them by hunting that observer and then baiting the Protoss into a trap. Zealots and Sentries are light units and get the full damage from Banelings ... and both are the truly dangerous units to Zerglings.
Banelings can also be burrowed at a potential third expo of the Protoss ... right in the mineral line. If that Protoss isnt building cannons there you will probably be able to kill a whole line of Probes ...
As for the whining about detection, well its an imperfect universe, but Zerg can get their detection for a minimal cost outside the regular path ... by just upgrading the hatchery to a lair and then getting an Overseer which doesnt even require any supply capacity. Both other races do not have that luxury for their mobile detectors ... Terrans might not want to build an Engineering bay or prefer a Reactor on their Starport all the time and Protoss might be going for all in "mass Gateway units style" without upgrades or Robotics; Zerg will always want that Lair.
stopped reading after "if you use burrowed banelings against a toss ... " etc 3 burrowed banies against a sentry blob <3. love seeing 20 marines die to mines, wait till you see 8 sentrys.
But since it is a zerg complaining about detection in pvz i suppose ... overseer got sniped hehe and dts came in.
You have a semi mobile building for detection, detection range is 10, so sniping detecion is always combined with suiciding units. So mothership or ghosts/ banshees might be a threat. But never a meele unit.
PS: you can snipe observers too (might be invisible but fungal has a huge range) and then your units can abuse burrow like crap, so its not like you can't do the same to the toss.
PPS: overseers are casters and way more versatile scouting units then observers. Haven't seen an observer being able to be at 5 spots at the same time.
Adding the overlord cost to the cost to morph an overseer is frankly stupid. You will always always have spare overlords and you don't have to create a new overlord to morph it into overseering as overseers don't loose food production.
Considering the parallels you draw between zerg and protoss. Zergs "pay" 25/25 for the convenience of having easy access to detection wherever you want after lair tech while protoss are pigeoned into robo early game. And that in my book is more than fair.
Us zergs have some issues but detection is not even close to being one of them.
Personally i exploit the fact that 99% of all zergs i meet are HORRIBLE at controlling their Overseers, thus making they very easy to snipe with blink/feedback. However, this is not a balance issue imo, its a unit control issue. Stop only using 1 control group, and its fine.
this is actually one of my biggest gripes at the moment, at the grandmaster level it kicks my ass. When you have someone with the control of a pro and you give them the utility of dark templar AND blink stalkers to snipe your overseer you lose literally all offensive capability until you get at least 2 and infestors. Just ONE dark templar and blink stalkers is enough to halt your push...
My suggestion was to always include overlord detection with the speed upgrade that way DT rushes are still a viable option but mid game - to late game you need to be a bit more tactical. Right now I feel it's just to strong.
Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
I'll never forget the first time I got dt rushed in this game and couldn't figure out why my overlords weren't revealing them...
That was one of the most important racial traits that zerg had in BW; the ability to detect cloaked units easier than any other race. Why go from easiest detection to hardest? It's still called starcraft....
Perhaps a better solution would be a per-unit upgrade for an Overlord to allow it to detect stealth after getting a Lair. Once upgraded, the Overlord remains the same (the model included) but it can detect stealth. The upgrade would be cheaper than getting an Overseer (at the cost of Overseer speed) but the opponent would not know which Overlords can detect stealth and which cannot.
Keep in mind though that all races have their mobile stealth detection quite far up the tech tree. Observers are available the fastest, but serve no other purpose (and die quickly to other detection) Ravens take the longest to get and are the most expensive (which is why scan exists) but provide secondary abilities Overseers can made from any Overlord, making them ALWAYS available quite rapidly and with 200 health and 1 armor, they can survive most encounters.
The only real problem I see is early stealth detection for Zerg, but I feel that should depend more on the Zerg scouting properly (with a sacrificial Overlord if needed) and getting a Spore Crawler if needed than to change the actual detection.
On April 26 2011 21:29 spad12 wrote: I actually think that defending expos against late game DT's is even more of a problem than dealing with them in the army.
I recently played a ZvP on Tal'darim where I went from 6 bases (4 mining) to 0 bases in a matter of minutes. I had 1-2 spores and 2-3 spines at each expo, but even that doesn't do much against 4 or so upgraded DTs.
DT's do 26.6 dps with +3 per upgrade. Late game, with +2 or +3 attack upgrades, DT's do a whopping 35.6 dps, as much as a freaking battle cruiser!!!!! but not affected by armor as much as BC's are. I need to do some tests to see how many spines you need to kill 4-5 DT's, but I'm pretty sure that it will be more than 2-3.
4 DT's with +3 will kill a hatchery in about 12 in game seconds. 4 of them will 2-shot a spine crawler, and 1-shot a queen. They kill things far too quickly to react let alone move an army across the map. By the time that you can get enough units + overseer to the DT's they are long gone and all that is left is the poor larva lying on a bed of quickly receding creep. =(
If he has that much invested in DTs......then just go kill him, he has no tech.
As a zerg player, it just feels natural to be getting upgrades/spore at each base, by the 7 minute mark or later depending on whether they went quick expo or not. But seeing as how you strayed this toward a ZvP discussion. Yea DTs seem pretty powerful, but it should never really catch you off guard. Zerg is supposed to be played with massive amount of drones to lose, therefore justifying the loss of overlords and even expensive Overseers.
You have to build 2 structures (spine/spore) to defend DTs unlike T who can use turrets given that Terran built a PF
Terran must build a PF and turrets. You must build both spines and spores. I see no problem.
Please don't derail the thread, your comparison is flawed on every side given that if the p brings like 4-5 dts the 2 structures of the zerg will fall immediately while your pf can't really go down and scans cannot be targeted by blink stalkers.
I think a buff (not a solution) would be changing the type of armor of the Overseer to nothing like the Queen and the Archon, making it still good vs Nixs but also less weaker against blink stalkers.
Keep in mind that our mobile detection doesn't actually require us to get any tech (besides lair). As in, at a certain point in the game, Protoss needs a robo regardless of what they're doing to deal with burrow-roach. Terran can rely on scan, but that kind of sucks against burrow honestly.
You claim that zerg detection is weak, but you must understand that it's not something we have to dedicate to getting.
On April 27 2011 02:30 Ponyo wrote: As a zerg player, it just feels natural to be getting upgrades/spore at each base, by the 7 minute mark or later depending on whether they went quick expo or not. But seeing as how you strayed this toward a ZvP discussion. Yea DTs seem pretty powerful, but it should never really catch you off guard. Zerg is supposed to be played with massive amount of drones to lose, therefore justifying the loss of overlords and even expensive Overseers.
I don't know what you mean by "drones to lose." We can rebuild them easily, but that's not the same thing. Our units are generally considered not nearly as cost effective. Mass expanding is for the gas, so I completely disagree with that justification. It makes absolutely no sense.
I play zerg and to me it just sounds like you lost one of those 30 minute games to DTs at all your bases, and came to TL to rant about it. The zerg detection is fine. If you are worried about late game dts, drop the main and kill the dark shrine. it's to expensive to be rebuilt late game. Soo yea, there are ways around it.
On April 26 2011 21:06 Jermstuddog wrote: This is one of the least talked-about aspects of Zergs massive loss of utility from BW to SC2. Both DTs and cloaked Wraiths saw most use against Zerg, who had overwhelming amounts of detection due to overlords.
Now Banshees are about 100x more useful than Wraiths and DTs are slightly less useful than before, but overlords lost their detection and now require a massive gas dump for the same thing.
Whenever people figure out how to consistantly abuse Zergs lack of detection, I think Zerg players are in for a world of hurt.
In what way are DTs less useful then before? You can warp them in anywhere, if you have a warp prism/hidden pylon, and Zerg's detection is complete garbage in SC2... I have lost so many games to late game DT's (20 min or later) where he just warps in a couple of dt's and snipes all my hatcheries...
If late game DTs really become that big of a problem for zerg, not necessarily talking harass but as an army unit AND overseer sniping becomes a huge problem (most of the time I see overseers get killed its because of poor placement which could be easily corrected), then maybe Blizzard could just add an Overseer upgrade for Hive tech? 100/100 for +2 vision range would give them the same vision as seige tank attack range and would mean as long as you pay attention to your overseer, it should be far enough back not to get sniped and still be able to provide detection.
You can also get creative and surround dt's with banelings and hit x. I think it's x anyway, that's manual explode.
If they blink into your army to kill your overseer, you retreat and run away, and then dump 500 gas into more overseers. I'll admit it's a nice little opening, but it doesn't have a lot of staying power... Keep in mind every DT you kill costs as much as your overseer. And once detection is out dt's are usually the first thing to go, since they're melee.
Zerg needs to be carting around 2 overseers in pvz anyway otherwise you'll pull an idra and get boned by hallucinations. That's happened to me several times.
Yeah the Overseer is more expensive, but you seem to somehow forget it also has 2 abilities to cast which, when used properly, are quite useful. Contaminate especially, and the Changeling has its uses. It also has more HP than the Observer, and benefits from an already sweet upgrade to other units to get super fast. I think the higher price is justified all in all.
And late game, please just get a Spore + Spine at each base and you'll be fine vs DTs. Optionally more Spines but at least you buy enough time to get over there.
overseers dont have an ability that stops production....
i agree Z detection is def a problem. the only good thing is that currently lots of Ps are going phoenix so getting a blind spore isnt that bad. ur right though, it becomes really messy during late game w multiple bases where u need mass spines/spore at every single expansion. its funny how much easier T can deal with DTs.
Meh, I don't see enough reason to change it. One thing to note is that overlords were detectors in bw and protoss was fine then... now that hallucination is an easy tech path you can get hallucinated phoenix to scout.
I can't really imagine a situation where this would be an issue. If you've allowed protoss to accumulate a large number of dts you should be in a position where you can get fungal, and that really removes this problem. They can't harass properly set up expoes, and other than hard all ins in the mid game using stalkers to snipe overseers isn't an issue.
imho the problem with overseers is how slow they are 1.8... 2.75 after speed upgrade is still very slow given stalkers are at 2.95 and can blink. If they were faster and/or had a larger radius of sight they would be harder to snipe. Also, it takes a stupid amount of static defense at every expo to stop 3-4 DTs lategame from sniping every expo (3 spines and 2 spores at each expo) compared to how many canons it takes to stop 5-6 mutalisks. Making 3-4 DTs is still like killing 15+ drones if they make enough defense at each base to deal with it.
On April 26 2011 20:57 Poststrata wrote: I disagree. Having Detection all over the place by means of Overlords would make the fight for detection trivial. I think the reason Blizzard removed detection to begin with was to keep the games interesting and require more skill.
I do agree that overseers are easy targets, but that can be used as a trap for blink stalkers. Fungal + smart unit control (ie: running the overseer away xD) can lead to cool scenarios.
It's interesting, because in SC1, even having ovies detect still allowed for DT harass because maps were so big. Early in SC2, maps were so small that ovie detection would have owned any DT play. Now maps are getting bigger and bigger. Thats not a HUGE problem for DT's (still a problem), but it makes it REALLY tough for me to play against Kiwikaki's style PvZ.
The late game mothership, mass stalker allows toss to blink and snipe overseers. It doesn't matter how many stalkers are killed while the overseers are going down, because the moment they are gone, zerg has no detection, and any toss units left are now invincible. It would be nice if we had some other option for detection.
Also sniping a well guarded and microed mothership is SO HARD unless you vastly over compensate with corruptors.
I'm waiting for protoss to discover the obvious stargate expand into DT harass :D
currently detection is not a huge problem for zerg gameplay perhaps but it contributes to the general trend that zergs are very vulnerable to unexpected strats
Of course every Race has different variations of the same stuff. For Harassing Terran and Zerg have really good dropping units (medivac+overlord), whereas Protoss only has a really weak Warp Prisma.
It's strange how many people on TL try to buff+nerf every single difference until every race is the same. The interesting thing about starcraft 2 that there are different races in an even fight.
Protoss players need to build Robos in order to even get detection, which is a huuuge detriment to every Templar-focused build. In addition to that, even building an Observer means your Colossus is delayed that much more (or Immortals or Warp Prism, whatever is more pertinent at the time). Protoss cannot simply smash out a large number of Observers to compensate for losing any without hurting the production of units they would otherwise want/need. Not to mention that Protoss has no detection unless they go for a specific tech tree (it's not like Observers can be gotten at Cybernetics Cores, like Lair).
Terrans give up Mules and/or Supply Drop (yes, they're usable >.<), which is a huge opportunity cost in itself. It's about as available (actually, even moreso, due to the lack of a gas requirement) than Overseers, since Lairs and Orbital Commands are somewhat synonymous. Terran does have Ravens, but it's about as useful as an Overseer in terms of detection (actually, it's slower), although it does provide support at a greater level than Contaminate does. Terran doesn't get a static defense that can handle cloaked ground units other than PFs, so they actually need units to defend against things like DTs and sneaky Infestors and the like. EMP is there, too, to handle Banshees, but getting Ghosts in TvT is...not as optimal.
Terrans have the most accessible detection, but at the same time, their only real cloak-harassment is the Banshee, which is shut down by a single Cannon/Spore/Missile Turret (not to mention they also can't shoot up, so Observers, Ravens, and Overseers beat them).
Zerg can get Overseers at Lair, which is pretty accessible unless you're going for a no-gas build. Unlike Observers (and Ravens), you CAN slam out multiple Overseers if you feel the need to, and you will (or rather, should) always have an Overlord around ready for emergency duty (as opposed to being hit by DTs while your Colossus is 80% done on your only Robo ). Spore crawlers are basically just moving Missile Turrets, so nothing special there.
Really, you sacrifice vitality for accessibility if you're a Zerg in terms of detection. Yes, losing an Overseer is pretty bad because you lose supply, but that's akin to losing an Observer at a critical moment (i.e. you absolutely need one) while your Robo is halfway done building something else. It's not all about cost.
On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote: Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
Dat 1 armor makes overseers quite beefy. You'd be surprised. Also, DTs and getting to DTs is significantly more expensive than their T1 counterpart.
zerg have it easiest imo. vs dts terran have to rely on scan, which runs out pretty quickly. ravens require starports with tech labs which can easily be swapped, but require time and lose out on medivac production. protoss have to make multiple observers which hinder colossus production. cannons are terrible in pvp. zerg can instantly make as many overseers as they need as long as they have the resources for it. i don't see where your complaint is coming from when you look at the other races detection abilities :/
On April 27 2011 05:12 Zeke50100 wrote: Protoss players need to build Robos in order to even get detection, which is a huuuge detriment to every Templar-focused build. In addition to that, even building an Observer means your Colossus is delayed that much more (or Immortals or Warp Prism, whatever is more pertinent at the time). Protoss cannot simply smash out a large number of Observers to compensate for losing any without hurting the production of units they would otherwise want/need. Not to mention that Protoss has no detection unless they go for a specific tech tree (it's not like Observers can be gotten at Cybernetics Cores, like Lair).
Terrans give up Mules and/or Supply Drop (yes, they're usable >.<), which is a huge opportunity cost in itself. It's about as available (actually, even moreso, due to the lack of a gas requirement) than Overseers, since Lairs and Orbital Commands are somewhat synonymous. Terran does have Ravens, but it's about as useful as an Overseer in terms of detection (actually, it's slower), although it does provide support at a greater level than Contaminate does. Terran doesn't get a static defense that can handle cloaked ground units other than PFs, so they actually need units to defend against things like DTs and sneaky Infestors and the like. EMP is there, too, to handle Banshees, but getting Ghosts in TvT is...not as optimal.
Terrans have the most accessible detection, but at the same time, their only real cloak-harassment is the Banshee, which is shut down by a single Cannon/Spore/Missile Turret (not to mention they also can't shoot up, so Observers, Ravens, and Overseers beat them).
Zerg can get Overseers at Lair, which is pretty accessible unless you're going for a no-gas build. Unlike Observers (and Ravens), you CAN slam out multiple Overseers if you feel the need to, and you will (or rather, should) always have an Overlord around ready for emergency duty (as opposed to being hit by DTs while your Colossus is 80% done on your only Robo ). Spore crawlers are basically just moving Missile Turrets, so nothing special there.
Really, you sacrifice vitality for accessibility if you're a Zerg in terms of detection. Yes, losing an Overseer is pretty bad because you lose supply, but that's akin to losing an Observer at a critical moment (i.e. you absolutely need one) while your Robo is halfway done building something else. It's not all about cost.
When you lose an Observer you dont lose anything you'd need for killing something invsible, that is able to attack. Sure, roaches can burrow now and heal up and if you decide to not move your army then they can get a good position, but in most cases I think the protoss will retreat to his base where he will at least have one cannon. But there's not really that need to go back home, although in some situations it might be a good idea. Whereas losing an overseer, which is btw easier to kill, which in fact is the huge point I'm making, leaves you behind against DTs that WILL own you if you dont retreat immediately. While retreating you might see your army getting force fielded to be slit to death. You cannot move out unil you get that overseer again or your army will just evaporate.
Losing an observer is bad, but it's not as crucial as losing an overseer. This combined with the fact that it's easier to lose that very same overseer creates the design flaw I'm talking about. While needing detection more badly it's easier to deny. One way to solve that issue is to give Zerg plentys of easily killable detectors, so it doesn't matter that much when you lose one. That's how it was in BW and I think that's how it should be in SC2. But ofc I don't want to remove the possibility of DT rushing from the game so I would introduce overlord detection with lair tech or overlord speed.
you act like overseers are just flying around and spotting dts without any sort of zerg army to back it up. yeah man its not invisible, so you have to micro it behind your army. the detection range is pretty big.
put it on a different hotkey from your army and make sure it cant get sniped.
and zerg is the only race with detection on the general tech path, how can you complain about that??? so dumb.
ps. phoenix DT isnt used much because roaches will push your shit in
There is a lot of flaws in your argument so I only skimmed through the rest..... the first flaw I seen is that zerg can have burrow for the offensive, such as infestors and roaches, and burrowed banes in probe lines, burrowed scouting lings, etc etc.
Solutions to probably most of what you wrote: 1.) Scout more 2.) Keep your overseer behind your army, not just a click it into death, always wise to have 2-3 overseers, and can even put those to great use around the map scouting and delaying colossus/immortal/stargate production!!!! 3.) Possibly as the game gets more advanced we will see more creep spread and at the usual battleground digging in a couple spores and spines behind your army, could complement it very well. 4.) Stop complaining about the game and find new ways to do things, or just get better!
I don't think anything should be changed in this regard... spores and spines are actually pretty beefy defense for rather cheap, not to mention there are queens usually at every hatch along with a spore + two spines should be sufficient in the late game, which is what, 225 minerals + 3 drones? Not really that much for a solid defense, which you should have a couple spines at far off expansions anyways to prevent them from being sniped. I have always though of spores and spines being more efficient in resources than protoss / terran detection. Because protoss would rather make colossus or immortals, not observers, and cannons get less efficient imo in the late game as you have to mass cannon a base against roaches if that is your detection path. Terran has a lot of ways for detection but all of them are completely inefficient, terran rather would have mules, no mules = terribly hard time expanding and having a steady production cycle, ravens are so gas heavy, and terran would rather have thors, tanks, vikings, or even upgrades most of the time, and turrets would rather be spent in units, and the terran would rather have pfs be an orbital.
There are problems with all races with this, but that in essence is what makes the game interesting, fun, and difficult.
i guess blizzard is kinda taking this into accnt with the new patch, Spores reburrow in 6 sec rather than 12 but i dont really see how this helps much other than against banshee harass (not much of a buff at all). I agree with OP on this zerg detection issue.
spores arn't a big deal, you HAVE to build evo chambers anyways. And that additional spine crawler is not necessary until you move the majority of your army outside of base. Really, 1 spore is all it takes to ward off a early DT rush. Additional queens also help. And late game when your army is out romping, you've got more than enough additional minerals to slam down spore/crawler at each expo and then free up supply for brood morphing.
Yes overseers are expensive and somewhat easy to kill and cost us supply, so I wouldn't mind a slight cost decrease. As for overseers getting sniped and then DTs rape your army, even if you make regular ovis detect, that problem would still be the same.
Zerg detection is fine. It's pretty much impossible to not have detection in time unless you don't scout the dt/banshee/ghost. Even then, it's quite easy to get an overseer before major damage is done. If anything protoss has it the worst since they have to choose a specific tech path and cannot morph detectors in any location they have overlords. Cannons may be more versatile but being able to morph detection anywhere you have an overlord is extremely valuable.
Losing an observer is bad, but it's not as crucial as losing an overseer. This combined with the fact that it's easier to lose that very same overseer creates the design flaw I'm talking about. While needing detection more badly it's easier to deny.
I disagree with every point your making here. Losing detection is the same for both Z and P, you cannot engage your opponents army without it (assuming Z has Roaches/infestors with the burrow movement and that P has DTs or Mothership, though MS is a diff story really).
It's equally as easy to lose detection as P or Z (long as Z has an overseer with army), the trick is to NOT keep your detection in the same hotkey as your army because thats a surefire way to have it get killed. Almost no one (even the Top pros atm) is very careful with detection but as it becomes more and more important players need to learn to adapt and just skim into sight range with their detection rather than throw it on top of the battle. Granted Blink is a great way to pick off Overseer, but thats why you keep overseers with an army so that a blink and FF will net you free units.
Its such a shame that a majority of the community has the mentality "This is soo hard for XvY as X, Blizz needs to make this and that different" rather than trying to adapt to how the game is currently and finding new ways around problems. I understand that sometimes things are actually imbalanced, but playing with the idea that YOU need to be better is going to get you sooo much further than trying to suggest changing the game to suit how you want to play it.
Overseers should have the parasite spell Queens had in BW, each parasite attached to an enemy unit should communicate with its Overseer and reveal a small sight radius (4-5) around it for the Zerg. If that overseer dies, so does the parasites. Otherwise the unit will stay effected until it is killed. The spell should cost 125 energy.
Funny, because, I was reading this thread this morning then I had a ZvsP game later on. My opponent went for phoenixes early then later made 5-6 dts and marched them into my base. All of a sudden, I get a warning and see my slings+roaches getting killed. I realize what's happening and move my army back as close as possible to my spore and then morph an overseer. He follows within range of my new overseer and the dts are history. From then on, I just kept some with my army but made a lot more overseers in my base. I almost always make sure that I have 2 spores+1-2 crawlers near each hatchery incase of a dt attack or banshee harass, etc.... I think OLs having detection like in BW was really extreme, much prefer to have to make the decision whether to make an OL an overseer
just wanted to point out that burrowed banelings against protoss is VERY fucking strong, you have no idea. I've been going this build that counters 3 gate sentry expand where I get like 2-3 spines, lings and 5 banelings with burrow and put them in a place where the sentries will walk over and BOOM, suddenly his timing push with sentries is destroyed. I clean up with spines and lings, and follow it up with 2 base muta pressure.
Seriously, fuck roach burrow to counter sentries, go baneling burrow, they won't have observers if they are doing the build, play greedy so they have to move out and detonate your banes over his sentry ball.
Dont know, why are people mad at our detection ? If you've haven't gotten 4 gated, they dont have many sentreies, dont ahve air units, and the ingame timer is at 6:30 seconds, you can bet your ass there is going to be dts in your base in about 30 seconds. And lategame, not sure how you define it, but if you haven't scouted lategame and midgame etc you are really doing it wrong.
And sure the rush can anyone lose to the world is not perfect. But if you lose to it lategame and you've seen the council and no robo or not scouted or seen blinkstalkers with no exp. Or not responded properly to what you've seen. Then you deserv the loss really. And even if they go open blink stalkers you should just throw down a spore outside your natural, since 90% of the time someone is really going to make dts as a follow up if they aren't going colousses or exp.
And 2 spines and a spore is not much asked from someone when they're on 4 bases really. Just put it there.
And for someone mentioning blink, if you dont have fungal + micro your overseer properly you deserved the loss as well. My thoughts on the matter.
I think the real question about zerg detection is why did they originally have an abundance of detection? What was it about zerg that made the old blizz team say "hmm, let's tie mobile detection to a very basic macro need so that they just naturaly get them"?
And how does taking this away impact the way the race is played?
The way I see the overseer is as a replacement for the broodwar queen because its the zerg flying caster now and the two spells that it has are compareable. Changeling is essentially parasite just different but they're both used for scouting. Contaminate is the new take on infest command center. However ensnare was by far the most useful ability that the queen had and even then it rarely warrented its cost in gas. I feel that that is even more so the case with the overseer except for it is now the zerg detector so you have no choice but to get it.
I feel like bumping this again due to the recent MC vs IdrA game in which MC had blink stalkers and DTs. MC blinked and sniped the overseer and it was GG immediately. Recreating that overseer just takes too long when DTs are ripping your army apart. IdrA even tried to move that overseer away, but as I already pointed out months before: the overseer just accelaretes too slowly. I acknowledge the fact that IdrA had no lings against his blink stalkers anyways, but this is not the point.
There is no reason why overlords don't have detection once you got lair tech or overlord speed.
Zerg is pretty much the same as Terran in terms of detection... I think? A raven is pretty much an overseer (in terms of what they're generally used for) and missle turrets = spores. I don't really know what time you can get spores or overseers but Zerg is by no means underpowered in that aspect.
To the person above: No way should overlords have detection... That would just be ridiculous. They are so cheap and you can spread them all over the map... Just no that wouldn't work.
On June 07 2011 03:16 ProxyKnoxy wrote: No way should overlords have detection... That would just be ridiculous. They are so cheap and you can spread them all over the map... Just no that wouldn't work.
Broodwar would like to argue with you? You know? that uber sucessful video-game?
Oh and DTs were used in BW by the protoss especially against zerg... go figure
Zerg is pretty much the same as Terran in terms of detection... I think? A raven is pretty much an overseer (in terms of what they're generally used for) and missle turrets = spores. I don't really know what time you can get spores or overseers but Zerg is by no means underpowered in that aspect.
On April 26 2011 20:57 Poststrata wrote: I disagree. Having Detection all over the place by means of Overlords would make the fight for detection trivial. I think the reason Blizzard removed detection to begin with was to keep the games interesting and require more skill.
I do agree that overseers are easy targets, but that can be used as a trap for blink stalkers. Fungal + smart unit control (ie: running the overseer away xD) can lead to cool scenarios.
Yup, in brood war it took so little skill to stop DTs that they were NEVER an important part of any protoss build vs zerg...
On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote: Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
I'll quote this to bring up my point but could have quoted any number of posts.
There are 2 key omissions in the fight against dts.
First and foremost, banelings do not need to detect to kill dts, this is very important especially given the dts are melee and die so easily to banelings (I believe this is the biggest reason why dt/phoenix doesn't develop, anything with mass dt would just get annihilated by banelings).
The second point is fungal. Not only it does damage but it reveals the units for a few seconds as well. This may seem a little micro intensive but any protoss who has had dts fungalled will tell you how much he enjoyed it.
On April 26 2011 20:57 Poststrata wrote: I disagree. Having Detection all over the place by means of Overlords would make the fight for detection trivial. I think the reason Blizzard removed detection to begin with was to keep the games interesting and require more skill.
I do agree that overseers are easy targets, but that can be used as a trap for blink stalkers. Fungal + smart unit control (ie: running the overseer away xD) can lead to cool scenarios.
Im not entirely convinced by this, think of how successful the bisu build is
Last i Checked the overseer wash cheaper then a raven, and built faster then an obs and a raven. can be made from any overlord. And with changeling the games best scout in the mid to late game.
In BW DTs were more effective because Zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones like they do now in such a rediculous fashion. And yet zergs easily fended them off with sunkens and detection. Why you no build spines you greedy zergs.
Whats 1 less muta in comparison to being safe all game long. Not to mention that Roaches in PvZ is more popular and are mineral heavy thus zerg will always be heavy on the gas aspect.
If anything, protoss has the most troubles with detection. Vikings with 9 range can easily snipe your observer with a scan and then cloaked banshees go to town on your ground army.
It seems to me in zerg late game it is very "easy" for zerg to afford the spores and spine crawlers that are needed, so I really don't see a problem. One spine and spore plus the queen per expo is realistically enough, you don't need two of each. Yes DT harass late game can be VERY effective but if zerg plays it out right it can also be worthless for the toss, I think zerg has plenty of time to just throw down safetly spines and spores without having to scout it. As far is DTs mixed in the army and overseer snipes, why isn't fungal enough to prevent this from happening? It seems to be at a pretty good skill requirement to me. DT's take a good amount of resources on top of the focus required to spread them out, it shouldn't be too easy for zerg to stop.
I also don't really see fungal as a good way to deal with them, unless the DT happens to be clumped with a bunch of other units it doesn't seem cost effective at all. I know I've definitely lost games by being forced to waste too much energy on DTs.
There is no problem with Zerg detection. Control your Overseers better. PvT 1 scan with mass cloakshees and viking support I lose my "superior" (read: yes, you're whining) detection. I can guarantee this is also a lot more frustrating. Overseers cost more than Observers because they can stop my buildings from producing and create changelings ._. Also, just like my superior Observer, your Overseer can get speed upgrades. You can even create multiple Overseers, and again, control them better. Hell, you sound like you want to shut down DT play completely. And quite honestly, in the current state of the game, I feel like I can't win without DTs forcing the Z out of an engagement or keeping even on economic terms.
I read your intro and kind of laughed, honestly. At this rate, we're going to see P threads begging the question of "why can't our photon cannons uproot?" or "why do phoenix need energy to kill units when mutas can just a move?"
firstly burrow is most certainly not a "defensive ability". Burrowed roaches are incredibly powerful offensively for their fast regeneration right, the utility of roach for being a front hitter allowing for heavy damage and fast reburrowing etc but everyone already knows this
secondly, A spore crawlers costs 75 minerals + drone. The DPS on the spore itself is very very cost efficient, even more so than a hydra. As well as the Spore has 400 hit points, this basically means that 1 spore and 2 spines at each of ur hatcheries will stop all but 5+ groups of DT's. Which is where the overseer comes in as its designed to be with ur army
Thirdly against Protoss specifically all their "cloak" units are melee, so even though the overseer itself cannot cloak there is little reason why it should be vulnerable.
Fourthly, Fungal Growth detects units as well which is probably the best spell in the game which allows you to go infestor vs pretty much every composition, if ur opponent goes dt and u go infestor tech you kind of build order win.
What I will give you is Mothership currently seems a bit powerful but seems how the strategy has only been employed twice in the GSL and both times the zerg were caught completely be surprize its too early to say there is a problem with Zerg Detection
Zergs need to stop asking for so much. Zerg did amazingly well in MLG yet this comes up and there's still people asking for better early game scouting. If zerg got everything they asked for the game would be broken as hell.
Lategame ZvP detection is completely ridiculous. It's so easy to pick off overseers (a 100 gas investment for the slowest, shittiest mobile detection in the game) that you need like 3 at a time, at any given time past the 15 minute mark. Not to mention the investment into protecting your distant expansions from DTs, 2 spores and 2 spines at each. The DT investment lategame is a guaranteed advantage for Protoss at a minimum, and completely game-winning if Zerg hasn't prepared perfectly for them (and by preparing perfectly Zerg sacrifices 300/400 gas that should be going into brood lords or corruptors, which puts them at a disadvantage if Protoss doesn't go DTs).
I feel like the mothership doesn't get discussed much, and I've only been in a mothership situation once or twice, but I find it kind of retarded that if Protoss manages to get a mothership and 100+ food army to where your base and mass of overlords are, you lose almost automatically. Protoss can kill your detection so easily and then retreat under the mothership, and you can't make more overseers because of the massive time investment and the proximity to their army.
On June 07 2011 03:49 karpo wrote: Zergs need to stop asking for so much. Zerg did amazingly well in MLG yet this comes up and there's still people asking for better early game scouting. If zerg got everything they asked for the game would be broken as hell.
...but IdrA lost a game to DTs, and that is enough to generate a dozen balance threads. :D
As someone pointed, the same happens when a Terran scans for observer and enjoys his cloaked banshees/ghosts.
At the very least, fungal is a viable option in late game.
I mean, yeah the races have different forms of, and different strengths and weaknesses in their detection. Races are supposed to have strengths and weaknesses. Your nitpicking every little aspect of the races, they are supposed to be different. If our detection has carbon copies for every race with only the names of the units changes this game would be boring and race choice would mean nothing.
On June 07 2011 03:51 tsuxiit wrote: Lategame ZvP detection is completely ridiculous. It's so easy to pick off overseers (a 100 gas investment for the slowest, shittiest mobile detection in the game) that you need like 3 at a time, at any given time past the 15 minute mark. Not to mention the investment into protecting your distant expansions from DTs, 2 spores and 2 spines at each. The DT investment lategame is a guaranteed advantage for Protoss at a minimum, and completely game-winning if Zerg hasn't prepared perfectly for them (and by preparing perfectly Zerg sacrifices 300/400 gas that should be going into brood lords or corruptors, which puts them at a disadvantage if Protoss doesn't go DTs).
I feel like the mothership doesn't get discussed much, and I've only been in a mothership situation once or twice, but I find it kind of retarded that if Protoss manages to get a mothership and 100+ food army to where your base and mass of overlords are, you lose almost automatically. Protoss can kill your detection so easily and then retreat under the mothership, and you can't make more overseers because of the massive time investment and the proximity to their army.
Overseers are faster than Ravens. They are made from Overlords which you should have an abundance of late game. They morph faster than an observer/raven and you can't even warp in observer to the spot you need it unlike an overlord. You also get spells with your detector like changeling to help scout the area around, even if it dies instantaneously upon arrival to the base. Observers can't stop production of units either. Ravens have offensive abilities, but they cost 100-125 more gas and are a T3 unit. All you need for Overlords is a NECESSARY tech path (lair) while Toss HAS to go in a certain tech pattern to get there.
2 spores + 2 spines will require a task force of 4+ DTs to kill it. That's a 600/600 investment that could easily be killed off and backfire. That's 1 inject cycle for a 150 mineral queen as well as the 400 minerals which Zergs seem to have an abundance of late game anyways.
Please stop exaggerating and injecting this thread with unbelievable bias/blindness. Zerg may have problems, but detection is not one of the main ones.
I have to completely disagree with the op here. The whole point of detection/invisible units is to create a dynamic that allows for different priorities during battles. Different races get different detectors with different +/-'s. Just because you think one is better does not make it better then the others.
If you do end up seeing dts, maybe you should consider more than 1 overseer? If a protoss has to snipe 3-4 overseers during a battle I think it would not be towards his benefit with your whole army bearing down on him. This happened a lot in BW (ob sniping needed to defend with lurkers), and continues to be a part of what makes P v Z interesting. I don't think this portion of the argument (1 overseer easy to snipe) has any weight.
A slight buff to the overseer would be to give changeling detection and a make so that the cooldown before death only starts when he has shapeshifted. Even with this buff I'm pretty sure the overseer/changeling would still be unused...
My main issue with the OP is that his problems can be remedied without making any changes to the game. The detection range on an overseer is massive. Position it further back. If they want to snipe it you'll have units underneath with full surface area all of a sudden.
I think you've understated the importance of detection against zerg for protoss. Creep spread is both offensive and defensive. If we dont slow it down, it becomes almost impossible to ever attack.. there's a time table forcing us to get that robo against zerg. Roach burrow can also be used offensively so that was another thing I feel your post missed.
I also think you forgot to factor some things into the cost of the overseer. It still provides supply, it produces changelings, and it can contaminate buildings. They are quite useful.
I don't know how many times I lost a game where I had a significant advantage because the Protoss blinked in sniped my overseers and killed me with DTs while other DTs were harassing 2 of my 5 bases. It is unbelievably frustrating to lose such games but the solution is very simple. You need to control your Overseers better. Have them in a different control group and float them behind your army (also have more than 1 maybe 2 or even 3). The DT harass can be easily stopped by an Overseer over the hatch (spores are too easily sniped by DTs) and 2 or 3 spine crawlers.
But after this constructive part of the post I want to get rid of my little rant: Why do these Overseers have to be so damn fat and slow, dammit!
Zerg detection is fine, Idra lost that game because he was was incredibly tilted/choking and reloaded on pure hydra instead of a better unit comp. Complaining that overseers cost 150/100 is also a bit silly, as you will never have to make an overlord before making an overseer.
Overlords getting detection with lair or overlord speed would be pretty imba. Zerg would have mobile detection literally everywhere on the map.
As a zerg player, I think zerg detection is perfectly fine. More zergs need to get into the habit of having spores and spines defending their expos (especially when they start reaching out further and further with 4th/5th/6th bases). You hardly ever see a protoss or terran take a 3rd/4th against zerg without proper defenses (turrets, planetaries, cannons etc.) so why shouldn't zerg start using more static defenses? Spines and spores are relatively strong and don't cost anything when you're on 4-5 bases.
Defensively, I think zerg is fine in terms of detection.
Offensively (to combat banshees/ghosts/dts) is where the biggest problems are. Overseers are expensive and they can get picked off easily. The problem is overseers are usually lumped into the same control group as everything else. This leads to them floating infront of the army and dieing quickly. Zergs need to start putting them in a separate control group and leaving them slightly behind the army.
I think this will only be an issue when terrans learn to start using cloaked ghosts to combat infestors (why the hell doesn't this happen? they use cloaked ghosts against templars... and ghosts are awesome against broods/ultras as well...). Why will this be a problem? Overseer? Snipe snipe snipe snipe dead. No more detection? Cloak and snipe/emp all infestors. Zerg will have a very very tough time when terrans start doing that.
On April 27 2011 08:44 Buffy wrote: Dont know, why are people mad at our detection ? If you've haven't gotten 4 gated, they dont have many sentreies, dont ahve air units, and the ingame timer is at 6:30 seconds, you can bet your ass there is going to be dts in your base in about 30 seconds. And lategame, not sure how you define it, but if you haven't scouted lategame and midgame etc you are really doing it wrong.
And sure the rush can anyone lose to the world is not perfect. But if you lose to it lategame and you've seen the council and no robo or not scouted or seen blinkstalkers with no exp. Or not responded properly to what you've seen. Then you deserv the loss really. And even if they go open blink stalkers you should just throw down a spore outside your natural, since 90% of the time someone is really going to make dts as a follow up if they aren't going colousses or exp.
And 2 spines and a spore is not much asked from someone when they're on 4 bases really. Just put it there.
And for someone mentioning blink, if you dont have fungal + micro your overseer properly you deserved the loss as well. My thoughts on the matter.
Scouting isn't the issue. It isn't just about countering it by making some detection in each base and some spines, every new sc2 players can do that . It is you have to make sure all your base are safe from the DTs throughout the whole game and also making overseers for battle. You can't move out too much until you have your overseer ready. That is going to delay almost all your push if your overseer were sniped. These are all just because of one single unit type.
This unit is so effective that you have to prepare multiple investment to deal with it completely.
In an ideal world, certainly fungal blink stalkers is the perfect answer but that is totally just a perfect world setting. That is like saying your infestors can never be fedback because fungal range and radius in combination is further away than feedback and you could kill them before they get into range
So you guys think that spore crawler + spine crawler in base is less effective than turret + bunker (which requires food) and that overseer is less effective than scan?
I think that terran should complain more than zergs against lategame DT but i also think that protoss doesn't have a lot of lategame harass unit except the dt so it makes the game more interesting.
On June 07 2011 04:31 Cosmos wrote: So you guys think that spore crawler + spine crawler in base is less effective than turret + bunker (which requires food) and that overseer is less effective than scan?
I think that terran should complain more than zergs against lategame DT but i also think that protoss doesn't have a lot of lategame harass unit except the dt so it makes the game more interesting.
Terrans can lift off their orbitals or repair planetary while Zerg at best can get an inject or two in and even then 4+ dts can snipe a spore colony pretty fast then kill the hatch and whatever else.
So when the fight starts, if you are fast enough you can spam changelings so that if they kill the overseer then you still have detection for a while. Besides, the changelings are very easy to kill if spotted to it still gives the toss the opportunity to deny scouting.
blizzard has already stated that they dont like the overseer and that they are already thinking about trimming it completely. That means they will be giving zerg a different kind of detection in heart of the swarm.
i also feel the overseer is a problem. Regarding overlords having detection after lair... That doesn't sound so bad. In bw they did from the start and yet there were plenty of place for dts in bw. And the dynamic could be the same. Instead of using corsairs, toss could use phoenix to kill the ovvies.
On June 07 2011 04:31 Cosmos wrote: So you guys think that spore crawler + spine crawler in base is less effective than turret + bunker (which requires food) and that overseer is less effective than scan?
I think that terran should complain more than zergs against lategame DT but i also think that protoss doesn't have a lot of lategame harass unit except the dt so it makes the game more interesting.
scans cant get killed and cost 50 energy, they also show the size of approx a steppes of war main for a relatively long amount of time, i wouldnt be complaining about them
i find i have more detection issues when motherships are involved than dts
i really hate the 10 detection range on everything ... but its kinda necessary and at the moment people are somewhat not able to keep their detectors save. Anyway burrow is not a solely defensiv ability ... you can use it offensiv pretty easily especially if the toss didn't got detection. spores are also the best toss detection killers and now even mobile.
Btw ... detection is not needed in zvz and zvt for the zerg haha funny. And the overseer is pretty strong. no supply super mobile cna be at multiple places at once though only the flying part has detection. can slow down tech. (ever lost a battle vs the toss but sniped all his colossi, i perma blocked the robo with 2 overseers that had full energy hehe), just got to love hydra vs stalkers on creep. blink what ? kiting hydras ftw !
Zerg detection is far superior over the toss detection, only terrans are better when it comes to detection. But terran detection is the most expensiv at teh same time. Really wonder why blizzard didn't like the overseer i always considered them imbalanced hehe, well except against ghosts, vs those ghosts you need spores xD.
Still waiting for players to start to use spores vs colossi on creep running near the colossi and burrowing hehe. best colossi tanks out there for zerg.
edit: oh for the funny zergs loosing because of the overseer snipe. Toss players had this problems since bw. observer killed by the nasty terror no more detection. You always needed some replacements a bit behind your army so you could just fly it in again and have detection again. This overseer snipe is really expensiv (especially if you take a queen along to snipe the observers) and if you have one replavement the toss lost like 10 stalkers for nothing.
I think it's tougher for terran because they have to get ravens out for mobile detection or save up cc energy. I like overseers I just wish they weren't so slow without ov speed. My first one gets sniped a lot and I think 100 gas is kind of steep.
Something I would like to see if when in mid-late game, against protoss especially and you have creep.
Bring spores with your army. Just 2-3 around your army and no observers can freely float around. It also slows down colossus a tiny bit and prevents hidden DT like MC vs IdrA
god ive died to dts and banshees so many times... blizzard has stated that they are planning on reworking or removing the overseer so im sure this issue will be fixed.
Overseers have more life and costs 0 food meaning you can get a few of them without having much of a drawback, and they have other abilities besides detect.
If stalkers are wasting time killing, it gives your army more time to attack, since dts are melee you don't need an overseer way up front.
Also theres no use comparing apples and oranges, like you did above, like a cannon to a spore crawler, a cannon cannot reposition and has lower life, etc.
I think Blizzard mentioned the overseer being one of the units they plan to reform in heart of the swarm. But I think overseers aren't really the main priority for a Protoss army so a zerg who is careful with his overseer and who brings more than 1 should have no trouble mowing down the Protoss dts.
On April 26 2011 20:58 Jacko11 wrote: Very true, the overseer is way overpriced compared to the observer and is overall weaker, I mean at least the obs is cloaked
Obs can't poop a changeling and contaminate though.
IMO Overseers are fine, they're pretty quick and you can easily make several of them if you need them. The main problem I see is that Z are too reluctant to get more than one, which is understandable because of the gas cost, but spending a few hundred gas is way better than losing.
It's kinda silly that Z has to invest a lot into detection late game against P simply because of the threat of sending DT's to each expo late game. Even then, having the detection doesn't even mean it will be successful. It's so easy for the DT's to snipe the spore crawler down even with a spine or two within vicinity. Obs are so much better than overseer because 1. they are less gas costly 2. CLOAKED! I can't even notice obs on creep most of the time and they just see everything. While an overseer is a gigantic floating balloon just asking to get sniped. Not to mention very easily run down by a few stalkers.
I don't understand whats with all the QQ tbh. An overseer costs a hell of a lot less than a shrine+DT and if you keep getting overseers sniped it's your own fault. Stalkers don't have a attack range of 10 learn to keep them at the back of your ball. 2 spines at a expo with a spore isn't that bad to shut down harass completely considering the cost per DT. Overseers are easy as hell to get and there is no excuse not to get them after lair tech. In comparison ravens require quadruple the gas and need to be from a tech lab starport and take a lot longer to get in a rush than overseers. Protoss need to halt Colossi production for observers and that is huge. Don't blame your race for your inability to prepare for inevitable dt harass and your inability to organize you unit's properly.
blizzard has already stated that they dont like the overseer and that they are already thinking about trimming it completely. That means they will be giving zerg a different kind of detection in heart of the swarm.
Analogous to the toss=cloak, zerg=burrow situation, perhaps they would replace the overseer with a detector unit that can move while burrowed in much the same way as the infestor? I have never had much trouble with the overseer, but the lore and general race specifics would support something like this.
On another note, this trades problems in PvZ sniping overseers with TvZ cloaked banshees sniping the burrowed dude, but I doubt this would happen nearly as often.
EDIT: "general race specifics" is a wonky phrase, but you know what I mean.
While I don't necessarily think Z has a lack of detection options (how many times in team games is the Zerg the one providing detection via overseers to save a teammate against DT harass), they are quite fragile and easy to target against for example mass stalkers. It's kind of the same problem infestors have; they're good yes but very very easy to click on and kill do to visibility and size.
However this may not be an issue, due to HoTS. The devs have specifically mentioned the overseer as an example of a unit that is "not cool," so we can expect to see the overseer removed or changed dramatically.
On June 07 2011 04:31 Cosmos wrote: So you guys think that spore crawler + spine crawler in base is less effective than turret + bunker (which requires food) and that overseer is less effective than scan?
I think that terran should complain more than zergs against lategame DT but i also think that protoss doesn't have a lot of lategame harass unit except the dt so it makes the game more interesting.
that depends, in late game, you have a few orbitals, unless your macro is insanely good and has no energy, you can scan. At the very least, it will able to do some emergency scanning or just lift off buildings the problem with zerg is DTs can snipe of tech buildings as well. Imagine you just traded with the death ball and he has colossus but your spire is sniped.
I like how the OP outright ignores the fact that an observer is obtained much later in the game than a Zerg.
It's slower.
and it takes up an entire robo facility to make
The overseer provides more uses than the observer, the one thing I potentially hate is that the overseer can be sniped before an observer is spotted. However, I don't see that as the biggest issue in the world.
On June 07 2011 05:21 tokicheese wrote: I don't understand whats with all the QQ tbh. An overseer costs a hell of a lot less than a shrine+DT and if you keep getting overseers sniped it's your own fault. Stalkers don't have a attack range of 10 learn to keep them at the back of your ball. 2 spines at a expo with a spore isn't that bad to shut down harass completely considering the cost per DT. Overseers are easy as hell to get and there is no excuse not to get them after lair tech. In comparison ravens require quadruple the gas and need to be from a tech lab starport and take a lot longer to get in a rush than overseers. Protoss need to halt Colossi production for observers and that is huge. Don't blame your race for your inability to prepare for inevitable dt harass and your inability to organize you unit's properly.
Terran can also have PF + turret to shut down DT. Not to mention tons of scans late game.
EDIT
I think we can agree on this tho. Terran has problem in early games against DT's. Zerg has problem in late games against DT's. So many times you see a Zerg lose simply because a few DT's go unnoticed and wipe out critical tech and drones. A Zerg losing drones is more critical then a Terran losing SCV's because of Mules as well.
i have a feeling that overlords will get detection back in heart of the swarm because they said they may get rid of units such as the overseer so that would be cool
On June 07 2011 05:27 Torte de Lini wrote: I like how the OP outright ignores the fact that an observer is obtained much later in the game than a Zerg.
It's slower.
and it takes up an entire robo facility to make
The overseer provides more uses than the observer, the one thing I potentially hate is that the overseer can be sniped before an observer is spotted. However, I don't see that as the biggest issue in the world.
I didn't ignore any of those facts. Either you didn't read the OP or you didn't understand it. It's also stupid to compare the races like that, they're different after all, but the need for detection is something every race has in common to a certain extend. As it is now, P's detection is perfectly fine against anything Zerg got while it's not the same for Zerg for the reasons I've stated like 2 months ago (again, in the OP)
So you would rather use half a colossi and some mins and gas instead of spending money on an overseer? if the overseer is behind roaches... no protoss in their right mind is going to blink onto roaches to kill an overseer, so this argument is invalid. You say that Observers are only usefull vs Defensive units... No if you do not have an obs vs Burrow roaches with tunneling claws.... have fun, also there is some infester play you can do. So make 1-3 overseers and have them behind your roach army... If he is using dts in his army you just pull them up... if you let them get sniped that is your issue and you can have another overseer in any location in 12 seconds via an overloard. I don't see how this makes them bad. You say he could blink and kill them... But that is only if you Put your overseers on the same hotkey, don't watch them and let them a move into stalkers.
Sure maybe they coast a little bit of money but they can be morphed anywhere... where can you make observers? One place, not to mention opportunity coast and supply which is not a factor for the overseer. Obviously some races have better detection but they lack in other areas. I just don't see how you can say that zerg detection needs a major buff when they in some ways are better..... SOME ways.
On June 07 2011 05:21 tokicheese wrote: I don't understand whats with all the QQ tbh. An overseer costs a hell of a lot less than a shrine+DT and if you keep getting overseers sniped it's your own fault. Stalkers don't have a attack range of 10 learn to keep them at the back of your ball. 2 spines at a expo with a spore isn't that bad to shut down harass completely considering the cost per DT. Overseers are easy as hell to get and there is no excuse not to get them after lair tech. In comparison ravens require quadruple the gas and need to be from a tech lab starport and take a lot longer to get in a rush than overseers. Protoss need to halt Colossi production for observers and that is huge. Don't blame your race for your inability to prepare for inevitable dt harass and your inability to organize you unit's properly.
Terran can also have PF + turret to shut down DT. Not to mention tons of scans late game.
EDIT
I think we can agree on this tho. Terran has problem in early games against DT's. Zerg has problem in late games against DT's. So many times you see a Zerg lose simply because a few DT's go unnoticed and wipe out critical tech and drones. A Zerg losing drones is more critical then a Terran losing SCV's because of Mules as well.
Terran has a problem early game for the same reason the zergs do, their build is not safe or they do not scout it. Generally speaking pro terrans save like 1-2 scans or a turret at around 7:30-8:00 specifically so they do not die to dts. If you straight out lose early game it is your own fault.. and to be honest i think DT's are the biggest issue in pvp early game because if you want to play really safe there is only one way to go because we don't have things like spores, lair tech for overseers or scans. Nope you have to go robo, which really hinders the match up in some ways.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesnt even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
this is a really bad thread. overseers can see really far and dts are a melee unit, its simple enough to put them in a spot that can see the dt and in which they won't die. you should also be making multiple overseers.
On April 26 2011 21:06 L3g3nd_ wrote: kinda weird how from BW to SC2 they nerfed ovies so much, decreased speed AND removed detection :S.
I think that yeah on late game on like 6 base, DT can fuck up a zerg really bad.
Not sure if it needs patching, just its harder to defend a DT harras than it is to execute a DT rush
On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote: Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
phoenixes just aren't as good as the corsairs as AA unit when massed ( straight up fight after 10+, but the other has potential to never get hit by a mutalisk? ) and could temporarily deny an area with disruption web but the zerg had detectors wherever the overlords were though
they removed the corsairs/valks/wraiths anyways for this
On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote: Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
As a zerg player, Stargate DT play play off a forge fe seems very weak to roach timings and burrow roach timings. While you have detection off the cannons at the choke, reasonable roach control can bust down the wall. DTs will have miss their hatchery timing with a FFE, as the lair timing will be in time to not worry about losing map control. The pheonix might work as a way to deny the scouting of the DT tech, however once ovie speed is reseached the DT tech will be found and a roach hydra push against gateway DT/Archon/pheonix will probably be a walkover for roach hydra as the sentry count will be lower due to investing gas into fast Stargate + DT tech and units.
Overseers are a crap unit and even blizzard admits it, so Im pretty sure that it will be replaced in HotS. Btw I never got why Protoss observers got the costbuff out of the blue (50/100 to 25/75) and overseers didn't. (especially considering, that blizzard knows that overseers are only used as "glorfied scouts" - their words, not mine)
Yeah dt harass is annoying, because in an even game, you should never throw down preemptive spore crawlers, just because their might be dts at some point, but if you don't you lose a lot to them. and in the midgame there is simply no possibility to scout for a dark shrine, given that you simply cannot find a dark shrine, with one or two overlord/overseer sacrifices as it can be anywhere and you there is no way of seeing it compositionwise. Yet I don't think that this is really a big issue, more a gamedesign flaw, that zergs have to pay for a unit with useless abilities. (waiting for people to tell me that contamination is sooooo great and bullshit like that...)
Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
Yeah dt harass is annoying, because in an even game, you should never throw down preemptive spore crawlers, just because their might be dts at some point, but if you don't you lose a lot to them.
Uh, that's why you should preemptively make them. Like Protoss preemptively makes observers against Terran so they don't die to cloak banshees. Or you can not and just pray, your choice.
There's nothing random about forgoing detection. If you don't want to build spores that's your choice, you're rolling the dice and hoping DTs don't kill you.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
Isn't this one of the main reasons the Blizzard Dev team said recently that they want to get rid of the overseer. It is uninteresting and just a horrible detection unit in my eyes. Unfortunately I have no idea how they are going to implement changing them. Until then, I think 1 spore and 1 spine at each base is required after the protoss get their 3rd base up and 2 overseer in their army when you know they have the ability to make them.
They want to get rid of the overseer because it's a dull unit. Not because it's Zerg's detector. In fact that's the only thing going for it.
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
Well if Zergs want ovie detection because BW had that, then I want archons that kick ass and easy DTs. Oh and reavers too pls.
It's a silly argument of course, just as "I need ovie detection because BW had it" is. Different games. This is just silly theorycrafting, no Protoss is dominating with some DT strat.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
your basically adding up all the costs of complete dt protection to make a big intimidating number thats misleading. firstly you have to remember that Zerg unlike other races can make all drones or all units or a mix of the two depending on the build orders chosen so if your not bare minimum 16 drones ahead by the 4th hatch your larvae decisions are wrong. Both races need static defense so to say that Protoss has a huge resource lead just because they can make DT's is ignoring the static defense required to hold off zerg pushes and harassment and is biased.
On June 07 2011 06:30 Yaotzin wrote: They want to get rid of the overseer because it's a dull unit. Not because it's Zerg's detector. In fact that's the only thing going for it.
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
Well if Zergs want ovie detection because BW had that, then I want archons that kick ass and easy DTs. Oh and reavers too pls.
It's a silly argument of course, just as "I need ovie detection because BW had it" is. Different games. This is just silly theorycrafting, no Protoss is dominating with some DT strat.
Lategame DT's as harass + mix into your army is almost standard PvZ, this isn't really theorycrafting...
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
your basically adding up all the costs of complete dt protection to make a big intimidating number thats misleading. firstly you have to remember that Zerg unlike other races can make all drones or all units or a mix of the two depending on the build orders chosen so if your not bare minimum 16 drones ahead by the 4th hatch your larvae decisions are wrong. Both races need static defense so to say that Protoss has a huge resource lead just because they can make DT's is ignoring the static defense required to hold off zerg pushes and harassment and is biased.
My point is not so much that DTs are unfair, more that Zerg's detection options both kind of suck. I scout a dark shrine, then either dump all my minerals into static defense + extra overseers or I spend a 500-600 gas on overseers that (many times) just get sniped anyway.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
On June 07 2011 06:30 Yaotzin wrote: They want to get rid of the overseer because it's a dull unit. Not because it's Zerg's detector. In fact that's the only thing going for it.
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
Well if Zergs want ovie detection because BW had that, then I want archons that kick ass and easy DTs. Oh and reavers too pls.
It's a silly argument of course, just as "I need ovie detection because BW had it" is. Different games. This is just silly theorycrafting, no Protoss is dominating with some DT strat.
Lategame DT's as harass + mix into your army is almost standard PvZ, this isn't really theorycrafting...
I mean that the idea that this is a problem is theorycrafting. In practice, results don't back it up. Until/unless someone abuses the shit out of it and demonstrates that there is actually a problem, I say Zerg detection is just fine.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
On June 07 2011 05:53 DusTerr wrote: question: would giving changelings detect be OP or "fix" the "problem"?
This is actually a great idea and it wouldn't change the balance of the game too much. In the early to mid game, changelings are mainly used as sneaky scouts. Most good players can spot them and snipe them as they come/drop. Adding detection wouldn't change anything in this stage of the game unless you were hiding DTs in your base. Defensively, this doesn't give Zerg a big early advantage since you needed an Overseer to make changelings anyway.
This change will only really impact the late game. Changelings can be very easily disguised in large battles. Think back to Game 6 of Idra versus MC, where there was 50 Blink Stalkers + DTs versus45 Hydras + Infestors. Any Overseers stood no chance at that moment. MC could have sacrificed 12 Stalkers to snipe Overseers and the DTs would still force Idra to retreat or GG. At this point, if Overseers could spawn changelings that can also detect and move with the army, then Idra could have mobile, temporary detection that is not as easy to snipe in a large late-game battles.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
Scans cost 300 minerals, more than a spine and a spore.
I hate this comparison. A scan does not equate to a sudden loss of 300 minerals, merely that you lose the ability to mine an extra 300 minerals in the next minute or so. MULEs make bases last a shorter time, so in the context of lategame comparisons scans are obviously much more convenient than anything Zerg has to offer.
On June 07 2011 06:30 Yaotzin wrote: They want to get rid of the overseer because it's a dull unit. Not because it's Zerg's detector. In fact that's the only thing going for it.
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
Well if Zergs want ovie detection because BW had that, then I want archons that kick ass and easy DTs. Oh and reavers too pls.
It's a silly argument of course, just as "I need ovie detection because BW had it" is. Different games. This is just silly theorycrafting, no Protoss is dominating with some DT strat.
Lategame DT's as harass + mix into your army is almost standard PvZ, this isn't really theorycrafting...
I mean that the idea that this is a problem is theorycrafting. In practice, results don't back it up. Until/unless someone abuses the shit out of it and demonstrates that there is actually a problem, I say Zerg detection is just fine.
I'm not calling for radical balance changes (or balance changes at all, for that matter), I'm just saying that it's VERY ANNOYING to deal with DTs lategame. I would gladly trade overlord detection for archives DTs or stronger archons or whatever.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
Scans cost 300 minerals, more than a spine and a spore.
They cost "Time" and not 300 minerals ( 240 on long blue, 270 on short blue minerals ) ( Costs the terran player 0 minerals to cast, just as Emp vs a DT = 0 minerals to cast, but it is a unit of "Time" ) It does not require them to use their own minerals from their own mineral count to cast. It's something they can potentially get in the future over 90 game seconds.
btw overlords with detection would mean that banshees will get an air to air attack (or a buff to vikings hehe to make banshee cloak possible vs zerg again). I don't really mind having my wraith back <3. Loved 3 port wraith in bw =)
And i think overlords would get some nerf to be easier to kill for the toss as well, probably would be made armored so voidrays and stalkers can kill them faster.
And no more overseer means no more contanimate or nasty scouts that need the players attention to be killed.
But as always when there is a problem only one races wants to change the game. ^.^ Anyway better detection means drawbacks elsewhere. For example tumors don't provide vision anymore. Or some combat units get weaker. My zerg side doesn't want to give anything up just for a better detection.
As long as the other zergs will struggle more tosses will love those dts and that makes my life as zerg way easier. <3
I'm surprised more protoss don't try to utilize a DT/Pheonix mix in with there army. I've only experienced it once, but the protoss was pretty bad at controlling his units so I still won the game fairly easy. However, with proper control this composition would be devastating. You have no way of keeping detection with your army with a decent amount of pheonix mixed into their army. You're pretty much forced to be defensive and can't really push out.
On June 07 2011 06:49 synapse wrote: I'm not calling for radical balance changes (or balance changes at all, for that matter), I'm just saying that it's VERY ANNOYING to deal with DTs lategame. I would gladly trade overlord detection for archives DTs or stronger archons or whatever.
So this is simply about DTs being annoying bastards? Well I can't argue with that. Dunno why that should be changed though, lots of things are really annoying to deal with.
Make overseers 75 gas and give them the ability to toss out globs of creep that last 15 seconds before dissipating that are around a similar size to a psi storm and make it 50 energy.
Congrats, the overseer is now an interesting unit that is useful.
Zerg easily has the most accessible mobile detection option, only requiring lair tech to be able to get it. Protoss, on the other hand, has the least accessible, forcing players to get robo tech in order to be able to detect, making stargate and gateway tech less viable. I think it would be reasonable to make the overseer cost slightly less, maybe 25/75 is more reasonable.
On June 07 2011 06:49 synapse wrote: I'm not calling for radical balance changes (or balance changes at all, for that matter), I'm just saying that it's VERY ANNOYING to deal with DTs lategame. I would gladly trade overlord detection for archives DTs or stronger archons or whatever.
So this is simply about DTs being annoying bastards? Well I can't argue with that. Dunno why that should be changed though, lots of things are really annoying to deal with.
Not suggesting DTs be changed in any way. Just putting my hatred for DTs out there it IS a discussion thread after all.
On June 07 2011 07:03 Silent331 wrote: Make overseers 75 gas and give them the ability to toss out globs of creep that last 15 seconds before dissipating that are around a similar size to a psi storm and make it 50 energy.
Congrats, the overseer is now an interesting unit that is useful.
This makes no sense. Why not just bring overlords with you to battle and ahve them drop creep? If your opponent wastes his time target firing overlords you're happy. If he doesn't you have creep everywhere.
About the cost, overseers are a bit expensive. Observer is a much better detector and is cheaper. Raven has plenty of uses besides just detection. The only advantage an overseer has is that it is much more accessible (overlords are everywhere).
Meh, I think zerg detection is fine as it is. The only issue is that the overseer is completely useless aside from detection purposes (and occasionally contaminate being useful...). Overseer needs an interesting spell.
On June 07 2011 06:49 synapse wrote: I'm not calling for radical balance changes (or balance changes at all, for that matter), I'm just saying that it's VERY ANNOYING to deal with DTs lategame. I would gladly trade overlord detection for archives DTs or stronger archons or whatever.
So this is simply about DTs being annoying bastards? Well I can't argue with that. Dunno why that should be changed though, lots of things are really annoying to deal with.
Not suggesting DTs be changed in any way. Just putting my hatred for DTs out there it IS a discussion thread after all.
Yea I hate DTs late game too. But honestly, it is our own damn fault. Us zergs should learn to toss up a few spines/spore crawlers at each base. It doesn't cost very much and terrans/toss do this with turrets/cannons/planetaries. We are just being greedy.
On April 26 2011 21:06 Vetrocide wrote: whenever I expo i just throw down 1 spine and 1 spore... kinda easy to deal with lategame DT imo if you remember
Unless your playing against a human opponent and he sends more than 1 DT after reading the situation. I'm fully behind this sentiment. Early/Mid Zergs detection holds up. Its not the best but it holds up.
Late game... ......... Ugh.
Now if you could upgrade overlords to regain their detection prowess from the first game [wrings hands menacingly] . . . [/wrings hands menacingly]
At what point do we collectively admit how unusual it is that Terran has the best scouting and the best scout prevention, Protoss has the best detector unit and excellent cloaked units and Zerg is left holding the bag in the rain? Its how I and others feel and I'm sorry (genuinely) if this comes across as a balance whine but I find it to be sincerely true. My race is hard.
On April 26 2011 21:06 Vetrocide wrote: whenever I expo i just throw down 1 spine and 1 spore... kinda easy to deal with lategame DT imo if you remember
Unless your playing against a human opponent and he sends more than 1 DT after reading the situation. I'm fully behind this sentiment. Early/Mid Zergs detection holds up. Its not the best but it holds up.
Late game... ......... Ugh.
Now if you could upgrade overlords to regain their detection prowess from the first game [wrings hands menacingly] . . . [/wrings hands menacingly]
At what point do we collectively admit how unusual it is that Terran has the best scouting and the best scout prevention, Protoss has the best detector unit and excellent cloaked units and Zerg is left holding the bag in the rain? Its how I and others feel and I'm sorry (genuinely) if this comes across as a balance whine but I find it to be sincerely true. My race is hard.
Wait for HOTS. Blizzard said there will be new units. Zerg are bound to get some sort of cloaked unit. For now live with burrowed infestors/baneling bombs
I concur that overseers are too expensive in comparison to other detection options. Ravens can defend themselves with PDD, observers are observers, but 100 gas is too much to spend on a unit that is essentially worthless outside of mobile detection and is also easy to snipe. More HP or less gas, imo.
On June 07 2011 06:49 synapse wrote: I'm not calling for radical balance changes (or balance changes at all, for that matter), I'm just saying that it's VERY ANNOYING to deal with DTs lategame. I would gladly trade overlord detection for archives DTs or stronger archons or whatever.
So this is simply about DTs being annoying bastards? Well I can't argue with that. Dunno why that should be changed though, lots of things are really annoying to deal with.
Not suggesting DTs be changed in any way. Just putting my hatred for DTs out there it IS a discussion thread after all.
Well changing their counter is effectively the same. Anyway yeah, they're annoying. You can let them be annoying or you can pay a price to mostly shut them down.
I wish I could build like 2 cannons at each base and be immune to fucking dropship marauders
burrowed roaches with roach movement are pretty strong...and a pretty offensive ability..
noone seems to be talking about infestors/roach burrow movement as an offensive capability... essentially you have templars that can cloak... i dont know i just am not a fan of the imba threads. i think detection is fine for all races atm... well scan is amazing but it always has been.
Also if overlords were detectors... that would be terrifying because SC2 is nothing like BW so u cant just directly port units and give them same functionalities.
overseers have contaminate.. which is actually a very strong ability imo... just no1 uses it.
On June 07 2011 07:03 Silent331 wrote: Make overseers 75 gas and give them the ability to toss out globs of creep that last 15 seconds before dissipating that are around a similar size to a psi storm and make it 50 energy.
Congrats, the overseer is now an interesting unit that is useful.
This makes no sense. Why not just bring overlords with you to battle and ahve them drop creep? If your opponent wastes his time target firing overlords you're happy. If he doesn't you have creep everywhere.
About the cost, overseers are a bit expensive. Observer is a much better detector and is cheaper. Raven has plenty of uses besides just detection. The only advantage an overseer has is that it is much more accessible (overlords are everywhere).
Meh, I think zerg detection is fine as it is. The only issue is that the overseer is completely useless aside from detection purposes (and occasionally contaminate being useful...). Overseer needs an interesting spell.
you dont bring overlords because by the time any creep is dropped you already have your concave, the point in the creep is to provide a better concave, also the fact that its an instant burst of creep makes it hundreds of times more viserital than an overlord that has to move to a location, and stop to drop creep then you have to wait 10 seconds for there to be enough creep to be worth anything
On June 07 2011 07:27 archangel2 wrote: I'd pay double for a cannon that could move.
And a cannon can't move because it can shoot both air and ground. Feel free to switch to Zerg and "pay double" to get a spine and a spore. They can both move.
Getting your overseers sniped is infuriating yeah. Only solution is to have 3-4 of them and keep them on a separate hotkey if he's deliberately targeting them. He can't blink forward and try and gib them without taking tons of roach/hydra shots so it eventually become inefficient for him to do so.
Stop saying that the overseer cost 150 minerals.. It isn't. You need to make your overlord anyway. That's like asking for a depot or pylon to change to some detection building (huh, actually that wouldn't be bad for protoss or terran to have it tbh. But i fear that will renders dt or banshees completely useless). It cost only 50 minerals and 100 gas end of period.
Concerning static defense, it's our nature as zerg for being so greedy that we're trying to make them as less as possible. We need to deal with it, and change our gameplay a little bit. Just make a spore AND a spine on each base, which the P and T are already doing it with PF and canons.
Believe me, i'm one of the most hated person when it comes to dealing with DTs or cloackable units because i'm deaf which is really a pain in the ass. But i speak for zerg, it's perfectly fine the way overseers and spores are.
What i don't like, is the 1a syndrom. Obviously you're playing it wrong if you have your overseer on the same group as ur army. What about colossus ? It's exactly the same, we need to pay attention to them.
k i didn't read through every post and I'm sure its been mentioned before, but DT's were effective in BW also because of the protoss's fast moving corsair that denied overlords all over the map. Now with phoenix to work the same way as corsairs, a phoenix dt build would work decently well in my opinion. Actually, it is even more powerful for protoss since stalkers can blink and snipe off overlords in battles regardless of whether overlords must be formed into overseers.
tl;dr: old overlords would still be balanced, DT's are still good and would require toss to reach a higher skill cap in terms of micro.
On April 26 2011 21:06 Vetrocide wrote: whenever I expo i just throw down 1 spine and 1 spore... kinda easy to deal with lategame DT imo if you remember
Unless your playing against a human opponent and he sends more than 1 DT after reading the situation. I'm fully behind this sentiment. Early/Mid Zergs detection holds up. Its not the best but it holds up.
Late game... ......... Ugh.
Now if you could upgrade overlords to regain their detection prowess from the first game [wrings hands menacingly] . . . [/wrings hands menacingly]
At what point do we collectively admit how unusual it is that Terran has the best scouting and the best scout prevention, Protoss has the best detector unit and excellent cloaked units and Zerg is left holding the bag in the rain? Its how I and others feel and I'm sorry (genuinely) if this comes across as a balance whine but I find it to be sincerely true. My race is hard.
Why do zerg players always beat their own race seriously. If you hate it then don't play it nuff said. I find playing zerg really fun and enjoying as an offrace and mechanics are barely and issue. Its usually the players fault that they don't build one or two spines + spore in the late game considering how much money is banked + excess drones.
All other races have to cope with the same problems terrans have to make a ton of turrets at a certain time of the game, toss have to make cannons, its all just how much you invest to play safe and if you don't then its your own fault.
Don't even get me started with burrowed banes and creep.
Properly placed spore crawlers and a properly microd overseer with your army is all that Zerg needs for detection. 75 minerals for a baller anti-air detector structure that you can now reposition very quickly? Sign me up please. If DTs are getting proxied at your expansions or into your main repeatedly or are running scot-free across the map, you don't have the map control you should have playing Zerg.
I agree. Most of the time when you get overseers, especially mid-late game, it's for detection. The high cost is due to the 2 spells it gets when all you really want is detection. Even blizzard said they were gonna change overseer in HotS but that's a long way out.
Personally I throw down 1 spine + 1 spore at every base at the 15:00 mark (that's 275min per base so about 1k-1.4k on 4-5 bases), completely blindly since there's no way of telling when dts will be researched in the late game. The observer is just so much better in every single way. There's a reason ovys had detection in bw.
Okay, I'm confused. I don't hate my race. If I did I'd play a different one. I just thought it was appropriate to voice my complaints about its detection capabilities compared to other races and admittedly I used the reasons for detection in my argument and complaint.
How does that make me hate my race?
I'd also love to know why its assumed I will bank a ridiculous amount of money just because I'm a zerg player. Not all zergs play the same.
And finally, 25 minutes plus late game its understandable to have 2 spores and 3 spines et cetera but at 15 minutes it is not optimal to have the required amount of defense to deter or defeat a large enough DT attack. When I play toss and I see a third with a spore and a spine you know what I do? I make more DTs and rush the spore. Then I kill the drones and get out.
Although I think it's true that overseers are too easily picked off late game, giving overlords detection would be ridiculous.
It would be great if the overseers' detection radius was increased. That way they stay further behind the zerg army, and the protoss would have to think twice before blinking into a bunch of roaches.
I find zerg detection to be fantastic. Even if I dont have overseers, fungal and banelings are quite easy to use to pick off cloaked units. If you have an army without infestors, banelings, and overseers you might need to rethink unit comps.
Be that as it may, I just want to say that detection is is something that's worthwhile to skimp on when possible, but can save many, many times its resource cost when you really do need it. In this way overseers are kind of great. You can pre-deploy overlords all over the map for no real cost and then fire up the nearest one in just 17 blizzard seconds when required.
I find DT harass against good players only really works if you can distract them with a larger confrontation, which is the same way zergs should be using ling run-bys and terrans should be using drops. The fact that there is now a separate audio warning when you are taking drone damage means that a truly capable player should be able to notice the difference in all three. Of the three: DTs are the highest tech, most expensive and when they get shut down; they get shut down hard.
(And for the love of fuck, there's no second 'c' in "cloaked". I swear that one is the second most common spelling mistake among ostensibly English-speaking starcraft players after "turrents")
On June 07 2011 09:24 Probe1 wrote: Okay, I'm confused. I don't hate my race. If I did I'd play a different one. I just thought it was appropriate to voice my complaints about its detection capabilities compared to other races and admittedly I used the reasons for detection in my argument and complaint.
How does that make me hate my race?
I'd also love to know why its assumed I will bank a ridiculous amount of money just because I'm a zerg player. Not all zergs play the same.
And finally, 25 minutes plus late game its understandable to have 2 spores and 3 spines et cetera but at 15 minutes it is not optimal to have the required amount of defense to deter or defeat a large enough DT attack. When I play toss and I see a third with a spore and a spine you know what I do? I make more DTs and rush the spore. Then I kill the drones and get out.
Edit: Spores are 125 not 75. Drones aren't free.
LET ME HELP YOU.... this is what you said earlier...
"Early/Mid Zergs detection holds up. Its not the best but it holds up.
Late game... ......... Ugh.
Now if you could upgrade overlords to regain their detection prowess from the first game [wrings hands menacingly]"
Incoming zerg QQ
"At what point do we collectively admit how unusual it is that Terran has the best scouting and the best scout prevention, Protoss has the best detector unit and excellent cloaked units and Zerg is left holding the bag in the rain? Its how I and others feel and I'm sorry (genuinely) if this comes across as a balance whine but I find it to be sincerely true. My race is hard."
Yeh you certainly don't have a problem with your own race. This is just another zerg QQ thread, the game isn't suppose to be spoon fed to you. You have overlords everywhere, at 15 minutes you have lair tech/should have lair tech. Stop whining about the cost of things... Thats like saying oh you know how much mining time I lose by building stuff with scvs and 270 minerals to kill creep tumors with scans, its just silly to be so nit picky.
People need to stop it with the Idra band wagon and just make due with what they got because obviously Nestea doesn't have a problem with dts hence GSL finals..
Zerg detection is the way it is so that Protoss is *actually* balanced. There's really no way to help come back when Zerg units are as efficient most of the time and Protoss has no answer. (Trust me, Protoss is weak with just straight up macro and not so much micro "tactics", and I play both Zerg and Protoss)
The thing that MC did against Idra in g6? Only way you could deal with it is with DT support. HT's do far too little damage in the battle field especially against roaches =/
Edit: Also, infestors ... don't complain. In the battlefield, Infestor's ability to reveal DT's is INSANE. Protoss detection requires that you bring a unit with you all the time, but if you think about it, both Terran and Zerg have abilities to backup detection when you need it (scan/emp and fungal), and Toss doesn't.
DTs are just too strong. Remember when you thought HTs with the KA were totally fine and raged when the amulet was removed? You think it's fine just because it is that way, but it certainly isn't. I'm pretty sure if we got a test realm with overlords having detection with the speed upgrade you would figure that it's just fine. How often do you see an overlord at far out expansions? How is losing overlords in battles not quite a loss? The fact that an overlord with detection would still be easy to kill would be not as important because you got many of them to still be fine (well, you might be supply blocked, but you don't lose the freaking game instantly). I'm pretty sure we will see detection for overlords coming back. Sure, in sc2 we got injections to pump drones, but you're also able to warp in, which is really good.
On June 07 2011 14:31 decaf wrote: DTs are just too strong. Remember when you thought HTs with the KA were totally fine and raged when the amulet was removed? You think it's fine just because it is that way, but it certainly isn't. I'm pretty sure if we got a test realm with overlords having detection with the speed upgrade you would figure that it's just fine. How often do you see an overlord at far out expansions? How is losing overlords in battles not quite a loss? The fact that an overlord with detection would still be easy to kill would be not as important because you got many of them to still be fine (well, you might be supply blocked, but you don't lose the freaking game instantly). I'm pretty sure we will see detection for overlords coming back. Sure, in sc2 we got injections to pump drones, but you're also able to warp in, which is really good.
When your going to give a buff for a unit you got to look at the big picture and how this will effect other matchups. Giving overlords complete detection will mess up late game TvZ where ghost intentionally cloak to walk under broodlords to snipe them..
Ghost are becoming more and more popular in TvZ and plz don't botch it before it even begins becoming standard. It happens so much.
Zerg overlords getting detection at lair? That would make dt rushes non-existent -.-'
Just learn to make two overseers if you're going to move out against dts. Or don't leave them in the front of your army so they don't get sniped. Terran has the same problem with slow ravens, and Protoss has slow observers (as soon as they get seen they get sniped- they're the weakest of the three detectors).
firstly you have to remember that Zerg unlike other races can make all drones or all units or a mix of the two depending on the build orders chosen so if your not bare minimum 16 drones ahead by the 4th hatch your larvae decisions are wrong.
That's just bullshit... If Im 16drones ahead in a PvZ and not seriously behind on something (tech, army) my opponent just sucks. (meaning he didn't put pressure on me, neither expanded fast enough himself, nor chronoboosted enough probes) And even if I could be 16drones ahead at this point, building the required defenses vs DTs would cost me at least 8drones+something like 700-1000minerals (16crawler is too many...) which leads me to the question: Why on earth should I even prepare for dts, as I would do more damage to myself as the dts would do! Seriously, if you lose like 20drones lategame to dts, you were either outplayed or you simply suck; And if a protoss doesn't just turn around with his dt's and turns them into archons, which are pretty costefficient now, or builds enough dt's to kill the spores, he sucks.
On June 07 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: I agree. Most of the time when you get overseers, especially mid-late game, it's for detection. The high cost is due to the 2 spells it gets when all you really want is detection. Even blizzard said they were gonna change overseer in HotS but that's a long way out.
It's pretty much this what bugs me. Overseer or Overlorddetection, I don't care! But getting hit by dt's and thereby forced to invest tons of gas (which is usually the limiting ressource in ZvP) in a unit that is pretty much useless, besides its detection ability, is just annoying. (not imbalanced, but I don't think that overlord detection would be imbalanced either)
On June 07 2011 14:31 decaf wrote: DTs are just too strong. Remember when you thought HTs with the KA were totally fine and raged when the amulet was removed? You think it's fine just because it is that way, but it certainly isn't. I'm pretty sure if we got a test realm with overlords having detection with the speed upgrade you would figure that it's just fine. How often do you see an overlord at far out expansions? How is losing overlords in battles not quite a loss? The fact that an overlord with detection would still be easy to kill would be not as important because you got many of them to still be fine (well, you might be supply blocked, but you don't lose the freaking game instantly). I'm pretty sure we will see detection for overlords coming back. Sure, in sc2 we got injections to pump drones, but you're also able to warp in, which is really good.
...Whaaaaat?
1. Dark templars are certainly not *too strong*. You can stop them quite easily. And once you get detection up at your bases (which costs only a few minerals), they're absolutely useless. They have no other functionality once the element of surprise is gone. Sure, they're decent melee units, but they can't cast spells, have no range, and it's very rare to make archons out of them unless you're floating resources.
2. High templars are used a lot less, now that KA is gone. A lot less. Removing KA was a huge mistake if Blizzard wanted Protoss to use fewer colossi.
3. If Protoss players are going to commit to dark templar tech and dark templar (which is a heck of a lot more resources than your defense is, so stop QQing), than be prepared to make an overseer or two. Learn to react to your opponent's builds, like everyone else does. And learn to not get your key units sniped. Protoss does it with colossi. Terran does it with tanks. Zergs can learn to do it with overseers.
The cost of DT-proofing your bases isn't too bad. First of all, has anyone considered using a patrolling overseer to cover the main and natural detection? You can skip spore crawlers altogether and concentrate spine crawlers in your natural, making sure the ramp is covered. That leaves your third and above bases that need spores and spines.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
Lets see, late game I'm on 4 base and you want me to make 8 spores and 8 spines... that's 2k minerals down the drain just to protect vs DT harass, along with 16 lost drones. No, you don't just sacrifice drones to get a bigger army, because zerg doesn't have a deathball; losing your economy = gg because of how squishy zerg units are. P's that go DT lategame always blink suicide 9-10 stalkers to kill your overseers, because that forces zerg to pull his entire army back.
On June 07 2011 06:16 Yaotzin wrote: Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
I don't know about stronger archons (health increase, attack increase?), but DTs from templar archives is fine by me... as long as my overlords can see them.
On June 07 2011 06:21 Voltaire wrote: Overseers are massively easier to get and use than ravens, that's all I have to say about this. I think the game is completely balanced.
Scans cost 300 minerals, more than a spine and a spore.
Do people still make this stupid comparison? I guess each creep tumor cost 1200mins and 800gas because those 4 larvaes that would have spawned could each have been Ultralisks.
First, if you are going to say overseers cost 150/100 (overlord 100, overseer upgrade 50/100) then you have to say cannons cost 250 (100 for pylon, 150 for cannon).
Second, overseers are great because you can build them anywhere on the map instantly with existing overlords. So if you have an overlord or two at each base, you will never lose your base to dark templars unless he brings 4+ dark templars at once.
Spore crawlers are so good now as well. With the quicker root, they are basically high hitpoint mineral only hydras that can't be lifted by phoenix. That's pretty damn good.
Crazy thought... What iff... WHAAAAAAAAT if, overlords could see cloaked units, never saw that used in any versions of starcraft have we?
Like why take out something that worked perfectly fine, and throw in a shitty unit, this reminds me of the colo, reaver arguments. Just something to change it, but it went for the worse imo, just my opinion.
On April 26 2011 21:00 norterrible wrote: While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better?
And I don't like this mindset of thinking that every discussion must be dismissed with a "learn to play".
Seriously if you are not interested in the discussion or just flat out refuse it... don't read it, don't post in it... noone is forcing you to come here and spread hate.
No one is forcing you to respond to my post either, yet you decide to let me know how much you don't like it. He asked what we thought, I told him. Not a very useful discussion if only the people that like the idea respond. And what if we had a thread like this for every single aspect of the game? At what point is it time to just learn to get better?
u didnt even put a real reason other than dont change the game. u even said overseers sucked. so why dont we not change the game when roaches were 1 food and 2 armor and everyone who complains jus needs to learn to play better? why dont we give overlords detection and anyone who complains jus needs to learn to play better
I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
Yeah, overseers are boring. No, they aren't too weak to deal with detection vs protoss.
Burrow (especially with roaches) is much more common and dangerous than DTs, and so protoss generally needs to get detection more than zerg.
The reason detection takes so long to come up in response to cloaked units is to give the cloaked units a chance to do damage, if they manage to get into a base without being scouted, either by seeing tech or by seeing the blur. DTs are a huge investment, in time and resources, and that investment can generally be exploited by good zerg players.
I don't think anybody thinks DTs are overpowered. Annoying, sure. But any increase to zerg detection will by necessity decrease DT capability.
I don't really see any problem with the detection, but I feel like for what it does the overseer should cost less. It costs more than an observer and yet it's visible, has bad acceleration, and is very vulnerable to snipes. I've had games where i've spent 500 gas on making overseers just because of phoenixes and void rays. Sure observers take up robo time, but that's not really an issue (I feel) because once you have an observer it hardly ever gets sniped because you have to have detection to snipe it and overseers always get picked off before observers. It's not really that much of an issue though because the only time dt harasses every do extreme amounts of damage to me are when the toss rushes dts. Otherwise at any other point in the game he may get 4 -6 drones, but in about a minute i'm DT proof due to spore and 2 spines at each expo. Then for dts mixed in the army I agree that it's a problem, but it's the least of all problems in zvp at this point.
On June 08 2011 07:16 willoc wrote: Pretty sure DTs don't have blink (even late game) and Overseers do not have a speed upgrade (only overlords do - it does not affect overseers).
wrong, pneumatized carapace raises overseer speed from 1.88 to 2.75
On June 08 2011 05:19 brutality wrote: I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
I kind of share your frustration here. I see quite a few zergs (myself included) lose otherwise won games because they get caught a little off guard by dts at some point on 3/4 bases.
Actually the most annoying issue I have is that I feel like I have to get lair to take a 3rd against dt openings on many maps (not all) because it's hard to get creep to my 3rd in time to get a spore up without an overseer.
Overall I don't think dts are as good as you're giving them credit for. It's not like in a huge battle them having 4 undetected DTs for a 20 seconds is going to end the game. You should keep OVERLORDS with your army lategame in addition to an overseer or two. If they try to blink to snipe the overseer, you just quickly make a new one and if you're controlling your units right they will take quite a bit of damage.
I do think overseers are kind of ridiculously expensive, but templar tech is a pretty big investment on its own. I think overall I'm so happy to see templar tech vs more robo units that I don't care. Robo units really are better in every way, but I just dislike the fact that dts don't require any preparation in SC2 like they do in BW to do damage.
I didn't follow that much BW, can someone explain how DTs and detection in general used to be see in ZvP with overlord still having baseline detector ? Did DTs even work in this match-up ?
I agree. Late game the toss can warp in 5 dt's one to each base, and there is literally NO WAY of scouting that, because late game the building can be anywhere on the map. The zerg would have to respond by AT LEAST throwing down 1 spore and 1 spine, and if the toss chooses to attack with more than one dt per base, then you need upwards of 2 spores and spines. Sure, zerg gets extra minerals, but sacrificing let's say 4 drones and 400 minerals per expansion is an incredibly high cost when the toss just needs to make 1 building and 1 warp-in round. If you don't realize what is going on until it's too late, you will lose the game, because all your drones, or all your important tech can be sniped in a matter of seconds. I think that overseer should be removed, and instead there should be an upgrade that turns all ovies into detectors, like in BW. This way, the strength of early game cloaked unit cheese is still effective against zerg, and a lack of overseer is already compensated by the relatively quick build and rooting time of spore. The effectiveness of cloaked units should decease as the game goes on, like how burrowed units are useless against protoss. A maxed zerg will have I believe 24 overlords, and even that many won't be able to cover every inch of the map, since zerg needs overlords to scout along air routes, and around the edges of bases. Thus, cloaked units could still work, but wouldn't cause the zerg to scramble around looking for scattered overlords around the map to morph into expensive overseers and pray that their base isn't decimated.
Zerg's have a high economy late game (which is when DT harass is most viable), I don't see the problem with setting up static defense for a little bit more money as Zerg.
i agree with the topic. but the solution would need a nerf to zergs as well.
i think it would break DTs if overlords get detection at any point of the game. it broke DT vs zerg in BW as well (imo)
so would i would like to see is: trading overseer ability to block buildings for a better acceleration and lower cost. you could remove changeling as well and instead give the overseer phoenix speed. so it is hard to hunt down. its costs are explained by its fast detection movement. it cant shoot and would still cost more than observers.
maybe this is not the best solution, but i would disagree to just give overseers high acceleration.
if it comes down to detection i think protoss is favored a little bit over terrans, because terrans often scan after something already happened. also scan costs minerals all the time. and cannons are way more usefull than turrets, although they need pylons zergs are way behind terran detection. ravens are the counterpart to overseers (energy based flying unit awesome for harrassment) but they are way stronger.
another thing is, that it is tough to kill observers, since your t1 units use ground attacks. so would probably need hydra+overseer combinations. while toss can kill your detection with t1 stalkers alone. i would trade sporecrawlers over turrets everytime. sporecrawlers are just to weak vs air and cost drones.
this issue already is pretty good balanced in a way where every race shows totally different advantages and disadvantages. i find it also hard to discuss due to the complexity of detection distribution through races.
but yes, imo its hard to deal with dts+blinkstalker combinations for zergs, or dt harrassment as well. (makes your expansions so much more expensive if you throw down static defenses
On April 26 2011 21:00 norterrible wrote: While I think overseers kinda suck, it seems like you just want the DT to not exist. I don't like this mindset of thinking the game is broken every time there is something difficult to deal with. Perhaps just play better?
I dont want the DT to be nerfed in any way. I just think that the overall concept of the Overseer is bad and that there's a better solution.
Stop finding solutions to hypothetical problems that aren't common in the first place. If you have problem with overseers getting sniped, then make more of them. and ensure that they are positioned well in your army.
On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote:As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF.
I can almost certainly assure you that in the early game, terran will not be using planetary fortresses to stop DT harass, due to the reduced mule count and the fact that planetary fortresses have pretty poor range-- they will not adequately defend vespene geysers, production facilities, addons and supply depots in the base.
Also, although spore crawlers can't detect while uprooted, it's worth noting that missile turrets can't uproot at all.
On June 08 2011 23:21 Noocta wrote: I didn't follow that much BW, can someone explain how DTs and detection in general used to be see in ZvP with overlord still having baseline detector ? Did DTs even work in this match-up ?
They didn't really work until Bisu debuted the corsair/DT build which relied on overlord harass into a dt switch. The thing is that you unlocked the tech for DTs as an instant bonus from building a templar archives, and you were always going to get HT PvZ. It would probably have been a little different if you were spending 250 gas and waiting 100 seconds just for DTs.
you missed one way of dealing with cloak you looked at all zerg units, saw only "detector" attribute, and went on from there another attribute u should have looked at is "splash damage" you can cast FG on the DT when u see the blur to reveal him. 1 burrowed infestor per eaach base is a reasonable defense, since they defend vs phoenix, void rays, etc. also having burrowed baneling explode near a blur will dmg the DT
On June 09 2011 00:12 MindRush wrote: you missed one way of dealing with cloak you looked at all zerg units, saw only "detector" attribute, and went on from there another attribute u should have looked at is "splash damage" you can cast FG on the DT when u see the blur to reveal him. 1 burrowed infestor per eaach base is a reasonable defense, since they defend vs phoenix, void rays, etc. also having burrowed baneling explode near a blur will dmg the DT
you cant trade baneling explode to detect and kill dts. therefor you need baneling tech, burrow tech, banelings on each mineralline and you need to make sure that no observer ever scouts your expansions, because otherwise your opponent would never send dts within the mineral line, but harras otherwise with them and your investment would be wasted
the other point you mentioned: 1 infestor per base cant stop a dt or phoenix harrass. infact you could delay the harrass for 4-5 seconds depending on your actions. vs phoenix you get 4 sec funghal and lose the infestor afterwards vs dt you could throw fungal and infested marines before. but still you would need 4-5 infested marines to kill the dt within those 4 sec fungal. meaning you need to throw them out first. and if your opponent sees you throw out infested,he just runs away, because he/she expects you to have the opportunity to kill the dt with this act. also you would need nearly full energy on each infestor. imo you need 3 infestors to defend any kind of harrass effectivly without only delaying it.
edit: you may could work with baneling explode, but you would need the speedupgrade on them as well. so you can attack them if they wont walk into a baneling-mine
Blink+DT's will likely be a more often used strat in the Protoss-Arsenal, because it's incredibly strong and other Protoss-Lategame-Builds get figured out better.
Also, I think the Overseer is too weak anyways. It should be faster and cost less gas OR be available on T1, which would make scouting for Zerg easier and make DT/Banshee-rushes less of a threat.
If Protoss start using more Blink+DT's, I think pretty much every Zerg will play Baneling+Infestor, cuz both of them can kill DT's without Overseers, which is pretty much the thing you'll have to do cuz you'd need way too many Overseers for them not to get sniped immediately.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
Wrong - for 125 at base we can kill DT at any base with super fast lings (creep)
On June 08 2011 05:19 brutality wrote: I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
So now we need turrets at every single base, 2-4 ravens, bunkers filled with marines at every base, etc. ?
So now we need cannons at every base, 2-4 observers, less robo time for colossi, etc?
To detect one unit? No... wait... It's to shut down the threat of all burrowed and cloaked units. And don't ignore how much money dark templar tech actually costs. The Protoss isn't going to get a quick twilight council and dark shrine to get a single dark templar to make YOU waste money lol. He'd be much further behind than you.
I love how a Zerg is complaining about detection when they arguable have the best detection in the game.....
1) Spore crawlers can be moved when needed, Cannons and Turrets can't. 2) Overseers have great scouting ultility and a shit tonne of HP's for a detection unit compared with a Raven (which costs 100/200 and takes away starport time) and a observer (that takes up robo time) 3) Overseers can be built from any of the 20 or so overlords Zerg will have late game
You can't have the ability to basically build detection from another unit, that doesn't cost you unit production time and is fairly cheap in reality, has far more HP than the T/P options and is Armored and have static detection THAT CAN MOVE and then complain about your detection being bad.... you can't have everything.
Zerg detection is the BEST. Since all races have static D, its really a comparison of raven+scan / observer / overseer. Zerg doesn't need any special building to get the unit other than lair; whereas P need robo and Terran need starport+tech lab.
Spine+spore can handle lategame dt harass in PvZ. Terran doesnt even have a static D that attacks ground.
You basically argue that Blink makes overseers too vulnerable. Well, if protoss blinks his stalkers into your army and doesn't die (sniping overseer or not) then you probably lost anyways. You can build more than overseer. Overlords are often everywhere, and so a few seconds later so can an Overseer.
I literally hate this thread. i can honestly say if your opponent made the DT nest on some dark corner and you get sucker punched with it as you clearly didnt scout it...you lose, unless you play for that timing and happen to have detection up just in case which means you lose a lot of games that dont involve dts at all.
either way this is ridiculous...when you are fighting an army with dts mixed in you need to be able to HEAR them inside the noise of the fight and gtfo if you cant manage an overseer (which you should have a couple anyway they arent that expensive and even in master i dont run such a low mineral count in the mid game that i cant afford them)
as for the ones that get to be sneaky little bastards invisibly killing all my shits while i fight an army...one spore one spine each base and a control group of couple infestors and some upgraded(you should have been getting upgrades anyway) lings to slow down like max 5 dts and micro your overseer (see: get a couple overseers)...cheap to save the game when you know dts are out imho
oh if he got more than 5 deal with it and burrow infestors at his shit unless he spent the money to make cannons then you just throw ITs at the cannons and watch his money plummet on the replay for lulz.
there is no problem with zerg detection. dts need to be handled with preparation and scouting not noobing up my damn game
On June 08 2011 22:56 Samuel Neptune wrote: so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
Ya. DTs are so overpowered vs. Zerg right now. That's why you always see them being used in that match up. /sarcasm.
Gee what an imbalance, zergs have to build a spore and two spines to defend expansions against late-game DT harass while Protoss can defend their expansions with a single cannon each!
Except that stopping late-game zerg harass actually requires more like 8 cannons per expansion, and that's only to stall for the time needed to warp in defensive units or lumber an army back to defend, not to shut the harass down cold like a queen, two spines, and a spore do versus DT harass.
I think people with low post counts/serious brain damage should stay away from threads that try to discuss things in a calm and mannered way. People should also do some research before posting stuff that is flat wrong like saying terran ain't got static defense that attacks ground.
I think we all can agree on the fact that the overseer is overproced for what it actually does or can do (if not, give reasons why). Many of you think that giving overlords detection is overkill, because it would render DTs absolutely useless. Is that even true? Imo it's not. In BW they were still a very viable option, but you can't really compare corsair/dt to pheonix/dt. I agree that overlord detection right from the get-to would render DTs useless in the early game, that's why I suggested the detection coming along with lair tech or overlord speed.
The longer the game goes the more spread out the Zerg will be meaning that he won't have an overlord everywhere, that also played a role in DT viability in bw late game. Now in SC2 zerg is able to pump drones like crazy, which means losing drones in not that big of a deal meaning Zerg is a little better off against means of harassment. But injection is not the only new mechanic to look at when discussing DTs and its consequences, warpgates also play a huge role. Warp gates pretty much allow you to bypass huge areas, areas that could be chokes with detection for instance. DTs are a much more direct threat in SC2. But this is all more about defending bases against DTs, which can be awkward at times but is rather balanced.
My bigger concern is DTs in armies. As already stated overseers don't accelerate very quickly and they're armored, easy to see and take a long time to build (considering you're being attacked). Stalkers deal +dmg vs armored so they pretty much oneshot overseers everytime. Even if you got one close to his army chances are you might not even kill a single DT if he's fast to blink.
But we also gotta take a glimpse on another unit that allows for detection: the infestor. The infestor's detection abilities (FG duration) got tremendously nerfed in the last patch, it's only 4 instead of 8 seconds of detection now. Also, DTs are not really the target you wanna hit when your opponent got blink stalkers in masses. They still are good for emergency FGs though.
I think we can agree that detection was balanced in BW. Now my question is, did it change more in the favor of the Zerg or of the protoss that would affect the detection capabilites in SC2? I think warp gate and injection pretty much equalize each other meaning overlords with detection still have a place in sc2.
Speaking of Zerg detection, I just played a fucking crazy ZvZ where my opponent went fast pool and evo chamber, got a spore crawler to snipe my scouting overlord. The new patch means it burrows faster than an overlord can move.
Pretty crazy. I won though, but it's an interesting ZvZ cheese.
On June 09 2011 01:22 emythrel wrote: I love how a Zerg is complaining about detection when they arguable have the best detection in the game.....
1) Spore crawlers can be moved when needed, Cannons and Turrets can't. 2) Overseers have great scouting ultility and a shit tonne of HP's for a detection unit compared with a Raven (which costs 100/200 and takes away starport time) and a observer (that takes up robo time) 3) Overseers can be built from any of the 20 or so overlords Zerg will have late game
You can't have the ability to basically build detection from another unit, that doesn't cost you unit production time and is fairly cheap in reality, has far more HP than the T/P options and is Armored and have static detection THAT CAN MOVE and then complain about your detection being bad.... you can't have everything.
The hugest problem I face with detection is against Protoss and it involves hallucinations. It can be difficult to determine a suitable army composition when you need to have an Overseer close to the army to realise what is real and what isn't. But this comes down to proper handling of the overseer, not much else.
Maybe increase the detection range on Overseer, I dunno.
Spine+spore can handle lategame dt harass in PvZ. Terran doesnt even have a static D that attacks ground.
Planetary fortress.
Pretty obvious he means normal D like cannons/spines. Making a planetary is a gigantic loss. Making planetaries just for DTs means the P comes out WAY ahead.
First off, doesn't this thread belong in the b.net forums?
Secondly, spore crawlers got their root time reduced by half in the last patch, isn't that enough?
After all Z and T both get detection easier than Protoss, I don't really want to build a robo bay or rely on cannons for detection every game. I know you consider burrowed roaches "defensive" and don't think infestors are worth mentioning but c'mon, getting detection sucks, I'd rather just scout with DTs than observers after all.
Man, I hate having supply-free fast flying detectors with lots of hit points on a 17-second build time, particularly when they unlock for free and get bonus magic spells.
On June 09 2011 02:29 decaf wrote: I think people with low post counts/serious brain damage should stay away from threads that try to discuss things in a calm and mannered way. People should also do some research before posting stuff that is flat wrong like saying terran ain't got static defense that attacks ground.
I think we all can agree on the fact that the overseer is overproced for what it actually does or can do (if not, give reasons why). Many of you think that giving overlords detection is overkill, because it would render DTs absolutely useless. Is that even true? Imo it's not. In BW they were still a very viable option, but you can't really compare corsair/dt to pheonix/dt. I agree that overlord detection right from the get-to would render DTs useless in the early game, that's why I suggested the detection coming along with lair tech or overlord speed.
The longer the game goes the more spread out the Zerg will be meaning that he won't have an overlord everywhere, that also played a role in DT viability in bw late game. Now in SC2 zerg is able to pump drones like crazy, which means losing drones in not that big of a deal meaning Zerg is a little better off against means of harassment. But injection is not the only new mechanic to look at when discussing DTs and its consequences, warpgates also play a huge role. Warp gates pretty much allow you to bypass huge areas, areas that could be chokes with detection for instance. DTs are a much more direct threat in SC2. But this is all more about defending bases against DTs, which can be awkward at times but is rather balanced.
My bigger concern is DTs in armies. As already stated overseers don't accelerate very quickly and they're armored, easy to see and take a long time to build (considering you're being attacked). Stalkers deal +dmg vs armored so they pretty much oneshot overseers everytime. Even if you got one close to his army chances are you might not even kill a single DT if he's fast to blink.
But we also gotta take a glimpse on another unit that allows for detection: the infestor. The infestor's detection abilities (FG duration) got tremendously nerfed in the last patch, it's only 4 instead of 8 seconds of detection now. Also, DTs are not really the target you wanna hit when your opponent got blink stalkers in masses. They still are good for emergency FGs though.
I think we can agree that detection was balanced in BW. Now my question is, did it change more in the favor of the Zerg or of the protoss that would affect the detection capabilites in SC2? I think warp gate and injection pretty much equalize each other meaning overlords with detection still have a place in sc2.
You write essay long posts yet i see no worth in them at all. I very, very rarely see cloaked units winning games for any race in this game. When they do it's mostly cause people are not used to it and skimp on detection. You exaggerate and make a big deal out of something that's not.
Also blink into a zerg army just to snipe a overseer sounds like it's simple to do and isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to snipe the overseer at the start of a fight you need to blink at least 12 (+3 weapons) stalkers straight into a zerg ball to oneshot a overseer. You do this and every roach/hydra has range on these 12 stalkers and the stalkers die in seconds.
Why change something that works and needs no change. Idra lost cause he played horrible and the DT's in his base didn't do much damage and the DT harassing the army didn't turn the fight either.
I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
I'm speaking from actual experience, not making this up on the fly to sound right...Every time I use DTs late game and in my army comp the zerg will have spines and spores and each expansion and multiple overseers with his army. It's really not a big deal to make a few overseers to WIN THE GAME lol Still gonna use DTs though because they can win games against an unprepared zerg. You really want to talk about cost??? DT tech costs a buttload and DTs that just run up to an expansion and do no damage because of proper defense put the toss BEHIND O.o
Having zerglings separate from your army to deal with harass back at home is def not a big deal. Toss does it ALL THE TIME. we leave HT's/DTs at our expansions to deal with terran drops, and stalkers in our main...
On June 09 2011 01:22 emythrel wrote: I love how a Zerg is complaining about detection when they arguable have the best detection in the game.....
1) Spore crawlers can be moved when needed, Cannons and Turrets can't. 2) Overseers have great scouting ultility and a shit tonne of HP's for a detection unit compared with a Raven (which costs 100/200 and takes away starport time) and a observer (that takes up robo time) 3) Overseers can be built from any of the 20 or so overlords Zerg will have late game
You can't have the ability to basically build detection from another unit, that doesn't cost you unit production time and is fairly cheap in reality, has far more HP than the T/P options and is Armored and have static detection THAT CAN MOVE and then complain about your detection being bad.... you can't have everything.
Terrans have scans which are basically invulnerable detection for large area anywhere on the map, without costing any production time anywhere. It may cost a mule, but by midgame you should have multiple CCs and paying the extra ~270 minerals to kill DTs, roaches, observers, banshees, etc is a pretty good trade usually.
And overseers being armored is usually a bad thing, since it invites bonus damage from everybody
theres some valid points here. its true zerg has perhaps the best detection. but zerg needs it more than the other races so it balances that out.
if you are playing vs Z you literally only need detection with your army in case of burrowed roaches/banelings. if you are playing as Z the option of your opponent going cloaked banshees or dts is really hard to deal with. dts in late game are so fucking scary as well as in base trades complimented with blink sniping.
if they patched this it would be cool... but there are bigger things to worry about atm.
I think they should reduce overseer cost and morph time, this is a trivial buff that would actually help zergs a lot but wouldnt be a game changing buff.
DT's as it stands, especially with the bigger maps are an extreme pain to deal with. Im particularily refering to their mid-late game use of denying expansions. Having to pull parts of your army to deal with it and invest in a bunch of tech to repel further harass really exceeds the amount invested in 1-2 DT's.
overseers cost too much gas but its important for terran and zerg to have detection in any fight vs protoss. DT's are one issue but also the viability of hallucinations in large battles.
Terran can just scan, which is annoying... if zerg wants to be safe they need to morph 3-4 overseers. That kind of bothers me just because of the gas cost.
Protoss sort of has the same problem against Air terran... Terran just does one scan and vikings shoot down his obs. protoss has to make 2-3 obs
Changelings should be detectors too. That would make stuff REALLY interesting. If you manage to get a changeling in the protoss army, you can easily see the hallucinations and observer. The ease with which a changeling gets killed balances this.
On June 09 2011 03:30 DuneBug wrote: overseers cost too much gas but its important for terran and zerg to have detection in any fight vs protoss. DT's are one issue but also the viability of hallucinations in large battles.
Terran can just scan, which is annoying... if zerg wants to be safe they need to morph 3-4 overseers. That kind of bothers me just because of the gas cost.
DTs 125 gas each Dark Shrine 250 gas Twilight council 100 gas Hallucination 100 gas sentry 100 gas each (hallucination costs 100/200 energy)
On June 09 2011 03:30 DuneBug wrote: overseers cost too much gas but its important for terran and zerg to have detection in any fight vs protoss. DT's are one issue but also the viability of hallucinations in large battles.
Terran can just scan, which is annoying... if zerg wants to be safe they need to morph 3-4 overseers. That kind of bothers me just because of the gas cost.
DTs 125 gas each Dark Shrine 250 gas Twilight council 100 gas Hallucination 100 gas sentry 100 gas each (hallucination costs 100/200 energy)
lair 100 gas overseer 100 gas
As protoss get better, zerg will need to make a lot of overseers or 5 DT will wreck their army if the overseer gets sniped/
On June 09 2011 03:30 DuneBug wrote: overseers cost too much gas but its important for terran and zerg to have detection in any fight vs protoss. DT's are one issue but also the viability of hallucinations in large battles.
Terran can just scan, which is annoying... if zerg wants to be safe they need to morph 3-4 overseers. That kind of bothers me just because of the gas cost.
DTs 125 gas each Dark Shrine 250 gas Twilight council 100 gas Hallucination 100 gas sentry 100 gas each (hallucination costs 100/200 energy)
lair 100 gas overseer 100 gas
As protoss get better, zerg will need to make a lot of overseers or 5 DT will wreck their army if the overseer gets sniped/
I'm honestly not trying to troll here but why would you ever lose 4 overseers in a battle? if a toss blinks into your army to snipe the overseers that's a good thing for you. You want your roaches to be as close as possible to the toss army.
On June 09 2011 03:30 DuneBug wrote: overseers cost too much gas but its important for terran and zerg to have detection in any fight vs protoss. DT's are one issue but also the viability of hallucinations in large battles.
Terran can just scan, which is annoying... if zerg wants to be safe they need to morph 3-4 overseers. That kind of bothers me just because of the gas cost.
DTs 125 gas each Dark Shrine 250 gas Twilight council 100 gas Hallucination 100 gas sentry 100 gas each (hallucination costs 100/200 energy)
lair 100 gas overseer 100 gas
As protoss get better, zerg will need to make a lot of overseers or 5 DT will wreck their army if the overseer gets sniped/
doing the cost analysis is an interesting observation that everyone already knew. Thanks for that.
Guess what sentries and DT's do in battle, yes they actually help your army. Overseers have no combat ability besides detection. Furthermore I am not saying there's any imbalance between P/Z so I don't know why you're bringing up a cost discussion.
And finally, one overseer against blink stalkers is obviously going to get sniped. Most zergs that have gone up against that build know that you need to have 3-4 overseers to counter it, because you simply Can't let your army get hit by DT's without hitting them back. Nor can you waste valuable damage on hallucinated colossus/immortals/voids.
Bottom line is if you're going to do a cost analysis you need to do it for at least 4 overseers. From both sides of the coin that seems like the magic number where protoss says "i cant snipe that many detectors" and zerg says "if he tries to snipe these i'm sure i'll be able to save at least one of them."
Edit: and yes, it's great if they blink into you, but it's worth sacrificing 10 stalkers to have dt's do uncontested damage for the next 30 seconds while an OS morphs. If you disagree I feel like you haven't played against DT/blink as zerg.
On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote: I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ. This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.
Just on this part real quick. I am sure the metagame will change on this as infestors are being used more and more in tvz which require the use of ghosts to aid in dealing with the infestors. This in itself requires detection on both side. But on top of that the terran does not always have a scan available. Baneling mines are a gamble if the terran has a scan available or raven out on the field. But its no more of gamble then using hold position lurkers. If the terran happened to have a scan available (keep in mind no mules in sc1 so the Opportunity Cost of using a scan is lower) or a science vessel then the lurkers were basically sitting ducks.
On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote: What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep
The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable. The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).
Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.
The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad. At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors. Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild: Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)
The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.
Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.
Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.
I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.
What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed? That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
Having an undefended expo without detection or defenses can force any race to lose an expo to dt not just the zerg. The cost of doing this is irrelevant because its not astronomically higher for one race except in pvp. But why would that matter its a mirror MU. It is impossible for a Mirror MU to be imba IMO. It may be gamble or a coin toss or even not fun to play but not imba.
Then you talk about your main complaint which is dts with the army. As I watch more and more tournament matches I see zerg players always bringing alot of overlords with them. Overlords allow for you to elevator up rather painlessly if you needed to they can be used for late game baneling bombs they can be used to negate force fields as you have dropped directly on your opponent or even as mobile creep to give you a speed advantage. So if you have all of these overlords here anyway the amount of time it takes to get a new overseer is not the morph time plus travel time. It is just the morph time. The toss player will be much less likely to blink right into the zerg army to kill a single overseer if they see it will only take 17 seconds for new detection assuming one isn't already made. Then you say there is however little reason for you to snipe observers. Keeping your creep highway up is more than enough of a reason to kill observers. And everytime you kill one and they have to rebuild it thats that much more time that a collosus is not building out of that particular robo. Also I have been seeing infestors being added to late game compositions which very good with dealing with blink ect. And gives the toss a reason to want to keep observers with the army.
You write essay long posts yet i see no worth in them at all. I very, very rarely see cloaked units winning games for any race in this game. When they do it's mostly cause people are not used to it and skimp on detection. You exaggerate and make a big deal out of something that's not.
Also blink into a zerg army just to snipe a overseer sounds like it's simple to do and isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to snipe the overseer at the start of a fight you need to blink at least 12 (+3 weapons) stalkers straight into a zerg ball to oneshot a overseer. You do this and every roach/hydra has range on these 12 stalkers and the stalkers die in seconds.
Why change something that works and needs no change. Idra lost cause he played horrible and the DT's in his base didn't do much damage and the DT harassing the army didn't turn the fight either.
Cloaked units take the game? Here you go:
Yes, all the overlords provide detection.
AND FUCK YEAH, THE SOUND OF THIS VIDEO IS FINALLY BACK!
On June 09 2011 03:30 DuneBug wrote: overseers cost too much gas but its important for terran and zerg to have detection in any fight vs protoss. DT's are one issue but also the viability of hallucinations in large battles.
Terran can just scan, which is annoying... if zerg wants to be safe they need to morph 3-4 overseers. That kind of bothers me just because of the gas cost.
DTs 125 gas each Dark Shrine 250 gas Twilight council 100 gas Hallucination 100 gas sentry 100 gas each (hallucination costs 100/200 energy)
lair 100 gas overseer 100 gas
As protoss get better, zerg will need to make a lot of overseers or 5 DT will wreck their army if the overseer gets sniped/
doing the cost analysis is an interesting observation that everyone already knew. Thanks for that.
Guess what sentries and DT's do in battle, yes they actually help your army. Overseers have no combat ability besides detection. Furthermore I am not saying there's any imbalance between P/Z so I don't know why you're bringing up a cost discussion.
And finally, one overseer against blink stalkers is obviously going to get sniped. Most zergs that have gone up against that build know that you need to have 3-4 overseers to counter it, because you simply Can't let your army get hit by DT's without hitting them back. Nor can you waste valuable damage on hallucinated colossus/immortals/voids.
Bottom line is if you're going to do a cost analysis you need to do it for at least 4 overseers. From both sides of the coin that seems like the magic number where protoss says "i cant snipe that many detectors" and zerg says "if he tries to snipe these i'm sure i'll be able to save at least one of them."
Edit: and yes, it's great if they blink into you, but it's worth sacrificing 10 stalkers to have dt's do uncontested damage for the next 30 seconds while an OS morphs. If you disagree I feel like you haven't played against DT/blink as zerg.
Overseer morph is 17 ingame seconds which is, i believe, even lower on "faster" game speed. 12 stalkers need to blink forward to kill a overseer in one volley, if you have two overseers i can't see how it's worth it. Maybe have overseers on a different hotkey and keep them in the back of your army as their detection range is huge? Maybe spread them like protoss does with templars? There's more ways of developing the actual play of zergs instead of suggesting changes just cause it's more comfortable.
You write essay long posts yet i see no worth in them at all. I very, very rarely see cloaked units winning games for any race in this game. When they do it's mostly cause people are not used to it and skimp on detection. You exaggerate and make a big deal out of something that's not.
Also blink into a zerg army just to snipe a overseer sounds like it's simple to do and isn't a sacrifice at all. If you want to snipe the overseer at the start of a fight you need to blink at least 12 (+3 weapons) stalkers straight into a zerg ball to oneshot a overseer. You do this and every roach/hydra has range on these 12 stalkers and the stalkers die in seconds.
Why change something that works and needs no change. Idra lost cause he played horrible and the DT's in his base didn't do much damage and the DT harassing the army didn't turn the fight either.
AND FUCK YEAH, THE SOUND OF THIS VIDEO IS FINALLY BACK!
Why should i care about that video? It shows a game in SC:BW, a different game with different unit abilities and uses. I still say that there's no reason to give overlords detection in SC2 as no pro games i've seen had shown that it's overpowered or even very strong. (I haven't seen everything but most GSL's since start and MLG/Dreamhack/ESL).
Well the problem you guys are having is your tryign to compare apples to oranges. The observer is much more costly than you guys think, because of the way unit synergy works w/ protoss. If you're building an observer, you can't be building a colossus. So if you lose 1 observer, not only are you losing the mineral and gas that build it, but you're missing out on the build time for a colossus.
Mean while, if zerg loses a overseer, its not such a big deal, because zergs can just get another overseer without much of an opportunity cost. Not to mention overseers has the one ability that stops unit production for like 30 seconds (prettty damn goood).
Also, in terms of the ZvP matchup, the essence detection is just the nature of the matchup. Zergs are naturally a early game defensive race. They'll position aggressively, but its pretty hard for zergs (in its current state) to out right bust down an opponent.
I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ. This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.
First of all, let's take a look at what kind of detection capabilities Zerg got: Spore Crawler - Static defense that loses detection when unrooted; requires evo chamber; only hits air and costs 125 (including the drone) Overseer - Flying unit (fast but with crappy acceleration); costs 150 100; speed upgradeable Infestor Fungal Growth
In comparision the Protoss detectors: Cannon - Static defense; requires forge; hits both air and ground and costs 150 Oberserver - Flying unit; costs 25 75 (and more importantly robo build time), speed upgradeable
What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep
The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable. The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).
Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.
The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad. At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors. Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild: Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)
The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.
Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.
Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.
I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.
What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed? That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow. BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least) This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.
I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ. This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.
First of all, let's take a look at what kind of detection capabilities Zerg got: Spore Crawler - Static defense that loses detection when unrooted; requires evo chamber; only hits air and costs 125 (including the drone) Overseer - Flying unit (fast but with crappy acceleration); costs 150 100; speed upgradeable Infestor Fungal Growth
In comparision the Protoss detectors: Cannon - Static defense; requires forge; hits both air and ground and costs 150 Oberserver - Flying unit; costs 25 75 (and more importantly robo build time), speed upgradeable
What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep
The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable. The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).
Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.
The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad. At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors. Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild: Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)
The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.
Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.
Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.
I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.
What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed? That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow. BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least) This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.
So a terran goes a weird all in build that's not even good and you demand changes? Honestly just rewatch the replay and see what you could have done differently. This is why TL doesn't condone balance threads. You demand changes yet no pro or high level player have won with this build and it's probably very flawed and usless if you just learn how to counter it.
I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ. This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.
First of all, let's take a look at what kind of detection capabilities Zerg got: Spore Crawler - Static defense that loses detection when unrooted; requires evo chamber; only hits air and costs 125 (including the drone) Overseer - Flying unit (fast but with crappy acceleration); costs 150 100; speed upgradeable Infestor Fungal Growth
In comparision the Protoss detectors: Cannon - Static defense; requires forge; hits both air and ground and costs 150 Oberserver - Flying unit; costs 25 75 (and more importantly robo build time), speed upgradeable
What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep
The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable. The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).
Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.
The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad. At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors. Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild: Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)
The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.
Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.
Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.
I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.
What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed? That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow. BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least) This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.
Seriously? This is one of the main reasons I hate being zergs, always have to deal with the stigma of idiotic zergs who always "omg zerg so weak, pity me, pity me".
First of all if you lose to mass banshee and mass vikings, that's your fault for poor scout. 2ndly, zerg detection is perfectly fine as is, when talking about units and their abilities, you must account it for the highest level of play, not noob-tierplay like you and me. Is it a hassle when overseers get sniped? yes, then just build extras. I don't get what's the big deal? get 2-3 of them a game, is it cost effective, maybe not, but you can sure as hell stop their production of colossus for a good 5 minutes. its the smart thing to do, then to qq, when your overseer gets sniped and then for the next 60 seconds you just get raped by things like DT's.
I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ. This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.
First of all, let's take a look at what kind of detection capabilities Zerg got: Spore Crawler - Static defense that loses detection when unrooted; requires evo chamber; only hits air and costs 125 (including the drone) Overseer - Flying unit (fast but with crappy acceleration); costs 150 100; speed upgradeable Infestor Fungal Growth
In comparision the Protoss detectors: Cannon - Static defense; requires forge; hits both air and ground and costs 150 Oberserver - Flying unit; costs 25 75 (and more importantly robo build time), speed upgradeable
What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep
The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable. The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).
Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.
The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad. At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors. Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild: Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)
The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.
Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.
Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.
I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.
What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed? That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow. BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least) This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.
Note: Oh right ... zergs kept whining and only when infestors got buffed DID PEOPLE REMEMBER ABOUT INFESTORS. What reveals cloaked units? ... Infestors ... oh right ...
i personally think overseer are fine as detectors. the only problem is (as blizzard has said) as a spell caster the abilities are rather boring. contaminate is fine but changeling isn't working out that well imo.
On June 09 2011 04:42 Mr. Enchilada wrote: Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow. BUT REGARDLESS, there is a HUGE issue with the overseer. They are too easy to kill. The observer is cloaked itself, so it has a much higher chance of survival. Terran? they can scan basically whenver they choose too. THERE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH ZERG DETECTION AND I DEMAND SOMETHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. (hopefully in HotS at least) This is not some whiny QQ balance half thread. The overseer detection behavior is flawed.
Wow. You lost a game because you kept suiciding units... and now zerg needs a buff because of this. You could have: a) Made 1-2 infestors and fungal-growthed their clumped air. b) choked the terran out by not letting them expand and easily defending 2/3 bases with spore/hydra. c) made a shit-ton of roaches (and I mean a shit-ton, if he had "SO many vikings" then you should have had way more roaches).
On June 09 2011 03:24 Arkan wrote: I think they should reduce overseer cost and morph time, this is a trivial buff that would actually help zergs a lot but wouldnt be a game changing buff.
DT's as it stands, especially with the bigger maps are an extreme pain to deal with. Im particularily refering to their mid-late game use of denying expansions. Having to pull parts of your army to deal with it and invest in a bunch of tech to repel further harass really exceeds the amount invested in 1-2 DT's.
This is not a trivial buff. It means zergs who are caught completely offguard by DTs would suffer significantly less than they would right now.
I keep seeing that Overseers are easy to kill, but honestly they're not that bad. Maybe a buff to 250 health or something but 200 health is not exactly fragile. I do think at certain points in the game you need multiple overseers with your army in case they get sniped of course. And of course if you are forced to invest in Overseers, you can harass with them.
Swear to GOD I literally made a thread saying the EXACT same topic. And they closed it saying TL isn't for balance discussion. But yours continues... But I have to say I agree one hundred percent. But one more thing. I played a game vs a Terran who went mass banshee, mass vikings. Now that was a weird build. But I basically went Mass Hydra with overseers. Only issue is he had SO many vikings that any Overseer would insta die. I made like 12 overseers at one point in hopes I could Survive, but alas.... Now i was constantly suiciding hydras to kill his natural, so he basically did it off one base. And anytime i didn't have QUITE enough hydras, I would lose my third. Now I realize that infestors would've helped a TON, but after his first 1 base 3 port banshee (yes, he made it off 3 on base) I lost my lair, so Infestor tech was slow.
Wait, you admit you made tons of mistakes and you understand what you could have done to win, but you're still complaining about it?
Blizzard in a recent interview stated that certain units (namely the overseer) are being reworked for hots. They specifically called out the overseer as being a unit that will probably be replaced by a more interesting ie. better unit. Here's hoping zerg's new mobile detection is as cool as the raven or obs.
On June 09 2011 05:51 freetgy wrote: if toss needs to get multiple observers so has Zerg to get multiple Overseers,
if Zerg players would use contamination more aggressiv, this wouldn't be even an issue.
I think zerg's detection is fine, but contaminate isn't a viable spell under most circumstances. When you do an overseer flyover, yeah, you can stop to contaminate a forge or a robo bay or whatever. But to regularly use contaminate in a meaningful fashion, you have to have several overseers in the protoss airspace instead of with your main army-- where you need them to detect. Contaminate isn't useless... but it's certainly use-impaired.
Come on fellow zergs, stop the QQ (and Im sure Im not the only one who doesn't think this is complete imbalance)
Yeah Overseer detection sucks for obvious reasons. Yeah Overseers themselves are a useless unit besides their detection ability (and even blizzard admits it). Yeah tons of people in this thread behave like they are grandmaster zergs, while losing to every 2gate or 2rax push when they actually play zerg. Yeah Zerg detection kind of sucks, because spores are usually "detection only" buildings and overseers "detecion only" units, while you pay for antiair and useless spells too. Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze. Yeah Photon canons and Turrets help versus or shut down a lot of our harass options(roaches, infestor, mutas, drops), and it sucks, that because of premptive antimuta turrets, noone can ever do infestor harass. Yeah I've lost way more than 1game to cloaked units (be it banshees, dts, ghosts that perfectly EMP my infestors or observers, that you didn't find and which watched your composition for 5-10min) Yeah "gas comparing" comments about the early game and early midgame are just dumb, as zerg has to invest in expanding earlier and droning earlier, and therefore simply can't take his gases as fast as terran or protoss.
BUT: this is how zerg works, and this is how the game works. DT harass mid to lategame and vulnerable overseers in armies are annoying, but part of it. If blizzard changes this, horray! If not build that freaking spore crawler at each base, and if you don't have the APM for splitting some zerglings of your army, I guess you will still have to build a spinecrawler. And if you lose because one of those "Zerg only needs to 1a" but "forcefielding a doublesized ramp tightly with 10overlapping forcefields shows real skill" guys did his little DT lategame "oh I hope he is not prepared, because Starcraft is a game which you win by crossing your fingers harder than your opponent"-cheese: Turn on the GSL and watch NesTea roflstopming those allinning noobs and learn from him!
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Overseer detection sucks for obvious reasons. Yeah Overseers themselves are a useless unit besides their detection ability (and even blizzard admits it).
Overseers seem to detect just as well as ravens... also, you can build them whenever you want without using up supply or prod fac time, and they DO do something besides detect, and that's be a supply depot.
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze.
A scan doesn't cost anything, but it represents an 'opportunity cost' of the minerals that a mule would have mined over its lifespan. That's a mule you can't use, since you scanned. Good DT expo play relies on the terran player to be unable to push out without effectively 'losing' hundreds of minerals to opportunity cost, lowering his army size in that respect.
Yeah Photon canons and Turrets help versus or shut down a lot of our harass options(roaches, infestor, mutas, drops), and it sucks, that because of premptive antimuta turrets, noone can ever do infestor harass.
And anti-banshee spore crawlers also kill medivacs if you try to marine drop, and anti-phoenix spore crawlers also work against DTs. Photon cannons are more flexible in that they hit ground.
Yeah "gas comparing" comments about the early game and early midgame are just dumb, as zerg has to invest in expanding earlier and droning earlier, and therefore simply can't take his gases as fast as terran or protoss.
your words, not mine-- there's a variety of zerg builds that take early gas, and either mine from it all game, or mine from it for early zerglings or roaches, then stop, or take late gasses (as late as spanishiwa's build, even). In the same sense, the good macro-heavy TvZ opening, a 2 rax pressure FE, doesnt' take gasses until the command center for the expo is started, and even then it feels like tanks come out slow, relative to terran fast gas builds that get hellions or banshees-- builds that, mind you, set you back economically since you expo late and have less minerals, and make you vulnerable to early attacks since you don't have marauders, tanks or stim.
BUT: this is how zerg works, and this is how the game works. DT harass mid to lategame and vulnerable overseers in armies are annoying, but part of it. If blizzard changes this, horray! If not build that freaking spore crawler at each base, and if you don't have the APM for splitting some zerglings of your army, I guess you will still have to build a spinecrawler. And if you lose because one of those "Zerg only needs to 1a" but "forcefielding a doublesized ramp tightly with 10overlapping forcefields shows real skill" guys did his little DT lategame "oh I hope he is not prepared, because Starcraft is a game which you win by crossing your fingers harder than your opponent"-cheese: Turn on the GSL and watch NesTea roflstopming those allinning noobs and learn from him!
oh nvm it seems we largely agree.
I actually think protoss has the most restrictive detection, for a number of reasons: 1) outside of the static defense (photon cannon), protoss has only one detector, the observer, unlike zerg's 2 (infestor and overseer) and terran's 3 (scan, ghost, and raven). 2) The protoss detector comes out of its high tech, slow producing robo facility, competing for time with immortals, colossi, and warp prisms 3) the protoss detector, while it benefits from being cloaked, is laughably easy to destroy-- 1-shotted by thors, among other things. 4) if protoss doesn't specifically go robo, and techs to HTs or stargate first, he has to make cannons to detect, whereas terran will always have orbital commands, and every zerg tech gets lair on the way-- he can easily be trapped in his base, and unlike terran who can scan or zerg who can turn any supply depot into a detector, he has to go down a NEW TECH PATH to get his detection.
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote: Come on fellow zergs, stop the QQ (and Im sure Im not the only one who doesn't think this is complete imbalance)
Yeah Overseer detection sucks for obvious reasons. Yeah Overseers themselves are a useless unit besides their detection ability (and even blizzard admits it). Yeah tons of people in this thread behave like they are grandmaster zergs, while losing to every 2gate or 2rax push when they actually play zerg. Yeah Zerg detection kind of sucks, because spores are usually "detection only" buildings and overseers "detecion only" units, while you pay for antiair and useless spells too. Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze. Yeah Photon canons and Turrets help versus or shut down a lot of our harass options(roaches, infestor, mutas, drops), and it sucks, that because of premptive antimuta turrets, noone can ever do infestor harass. Yeah I've lost way more than 1game to cloaked units (be it banshees, dts, ghosts that perfectly EMP my infestors or observers, that you didn't find and which watched your composition for 5-10min) Yeah "gas comparing" comments about the early game and early midgame are just dumb, as zerg has to invest in expanding earlier and droning earlier, and therefore simply can't take his gases as fast as terran or protoss.
BUT: this is how zerg works, and this is how the game works. DT harass mid to lategame and vulnerable overseers in armies are annoying, but part of it. If blizzard changes this, horray! If not build that freaking spore crawler at each base, and if you don't have the APM for splitting some zerglings of your army, I guess you will still have to build a spinecrawler. And if you lose because one of those "Zerg only needs to 1a" but "forcefielding a doublesized ramp tightly with 10overlapping forcefields shows real skill" guys did his little DT lategame "oh I hope he is not prepared, because Starcraft is a game which you win by crossing your fingers harder than your opponent"-cheese: Turn on the GSL and watch NesTea roflstopming those allinning noobs and learn from him!
Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help.
What a huge whinefest. Every race has his good and bad sides. Zerg detection isn't the best, but it CERTAINLY is NOT unmanagably bad.
While you can whine all you want about "needing" to put down static def at every expo, zerg in lategame usually floats a lot of minerals anyway. When pushing, protoss has nothing with a long rang to air, and their only possibility to take down that overseer effectively is either feedback or blink.
Feedback isn't even likely to kill an overseer and blink.. Well, if he can blink and kill your overseer, he will have to blink into your army, which will lose him a lot of units.
Also, DT are melee. This means you never have to send your overseer in front of your army, you can always keep you overseer in the back and still see those DT.
And if you don't like it, you can always slow push your way with spore crawlers. Unorthodox, I know, but you guys act like you don't have options, while you have.
Zerg still has some issues, but detection is NOT one of them.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
Wrong - for 125 at base we can kill DT at any base with super fast lings (creep)
did you conveniently forget i was responding to what the guy i quoted posted?
Ravens are slower and more expensive. And its not like Terran has a million scans at their disposal. The range of detection of an overseer is pretty large, keep the overseers behind the army and you can't get blink sniped because it would be suicide for the stalkers and you could just make another overseer in a few seconds, right at the battle sight. Overseer is like 100 gas. Each DT is 125. Whats wrong with making multiple DTs?
On June 08 2011 05:19 brutality wrote: I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
So now we need turrets at every single base, 2-4 ravens, bunkers filled with marines at every base, etc. ?
So now we need cannons at every base, 2-4 observers, less robo time for colossi, etc?
To detect one unit? No... wait... It's to shut down the threat of all burrowed and cloaked units. And don't ignore how much money dark templar tech actually costs. The Protoss isn't going to get a quick twilight council and dark shrine to get a single dark templar to make YOU waste money lol. He'd be much further behind than you.
legitimately responding to this post requires that i acknowledge your stupidity first. so, you're stupid
i'm talking about zerg, first off. given the the op named this thread "zerg detection." it appears that's beyond your observational ability
secondly, i was responding to what the toss player suggested zerg should do. i was pointing out that defending against dts in the way he suggested would be ridiculous because it would cost too much
On June 08 2011 22:56 Samuel Neptune wrote: so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
Ya. DTs are so overpowered vs. Zerg right now. That's why you always see them being used in that match up. /sarcasm.
Overseer morph is 17 ingame seconds which is, i believe, even lower on "faster" game speed. 12 stalkers need to blink forward to kill a overseer in one volley, if you have two overseers i can't see how it's worth it. Maybe have overseers on a different hotkey and keep them in the back of your army as their detection range is huge? Maybe spread them like protoss does with templars? There's more ways of developing the actual play of zergs instead of suggesting changes just cause it's more comfortable.
I haven't suggesting any changes, not to the game at least... Just that zergs should morph a few more overseers and keep them with their army when they're playing against a protoss. It's arguably not the best usage of gas but at at least it doesn't take supply... And they can always be used to contaminate later... Unlike corruptors.
Also not sure where you got the 12 stalker number. Overseers have 200 health stalkers do 14 -1 damage to armored?
This could become a problem but I don't think it's the major issue with the overseer. If you want to scout with it, (without using chanelings which are eazy to spot in the mid game for competent players) it's ultimately a sacrifice, and it's expensive. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to not get their observer killed as protoss. Even for terran, it requires you to get a really expensive units or used scans. I don't even build more than 1 overseer unless DTs are on the map. Overlord speed is expensive but its 1 overlord with speed is the most cost efficient scout especially since zerg tends to have a lot of minerals. It's pretty unforgiving though when you're already behind. You spend a shitload of money on only scouting because you're afraid he's going to send dts or is tech switching to cloak banshee and what not...
I could go on but this is a discussion of Overseers vs Protoss armies, so I'll just say that with usually good control (keeping it as far back as possible) you should be okay. It's also important to drop changelings in order to not get feedbacked.
On June 09 2011 05:51 freetgy wrote: if toss needs to get multiple observers so has Zerg to get multiple Overseers,
if Zerg players would use contamination more aggressiv, this wouldn't be even an issue.
sorry not going to spend 100 gas for one contaminate. If you place your robo in a spot that lets me go in and go out without your fast stalkers reaching in time you're not a good player. Contaminate is to give value to a scout that is going to die anyways. 50/100 is really expensive in the mid game man.
I have never won a game b/c i had DTs in my army and was able to snipe an overseer. Good zergs always have 2-4 overseers with their army when they know DTs are on the map and pull back if they die to make more. Obs are key for toss to move out. fighting on creep can be dangerous even with FF and i would never take the possibility of burrowed banelings out of the picture. That's just arrogant. So move out on the map w/out an obs and walk my sentries right over a few burrowed banelings. time to cry and walk back home and wait for an obs. That's just like saying drops are bad when mutas are on the field. If you can help guide the drop with your army or drop in multiple locations with 3 or 4, unless he splits his mutas, they most likely will do damage.
Dts are very easy for zerg to handle. spores/overseers and spines at all expos. Also have some zerglings on a separate hotkey to quickly send them to defend. I really don't understand your crying.
so we need 2-4 overseers with our army and spores at all bases to DETECT one unit. not to mention all the drones used for the spores, and all the mining time lost. but at least we can detect dts, right?
so now we need spines + zerglings to actually kill the dts. that's more drones/larvae
and then there's the actual damage done by the dts
the amount spent on both sides is hilariously disproportionate unless they smash dts against your defenses for a while
I'm speaking from actual experience, not making this up on the fly to sound right...Every time I use DTs late game and in my army comp the zerg will have spines and spores and each expansion and multiple overseers with his army. It's really not a big deal to make a few overseers to WIN THE GAME lol Still gonna use DTs though because they can win games against an unprepared zerg. You really want to talk about cost??? DT tech costs a buttload and DTs that just run up to an expansion and do no damage because of proper defense put the toss BEHIND O.o
Having zerglings separate from your army to deal with harass back at home is def not a big deal. Toss does it ALL THE TIME. we leave HT's/DTs at our expansions to deal with terran drops, and stalkers in our main...
so the zerg scouts your dark shrine every time? you must be extremely skilled at concealing buildings
"Still gonna use DTs though because they can win games against an unprepared zerg." like this part tho
It was on scrap station where the base is so fucking huge and he hid them in the corner. Of course I had to suicide units to deny an expansion you fucktard. You expect me to turtle on my 3 base whileterran can literally go take EVERY expansion!? NO. I had to suicide to deny the expansion. And while agree you need infestors and that that was my own fault. BUT let's say you didn't have an infestation pit and low and behold it gets sniped by all the banshees and I need all y gas to survive, until my lair is up and I have enough to support infestors I'm fucked. That's what happened in this game. I also counter attacked his base repeatedly. Buy without enough time to get infestor support banshee Viking kills Zerg. I saw something in a tournament a bit after the game launched where the Terran did the SAME build. Know what Tastosis said the respOnse was? Infestors. Why? Because they reveal the unit for 8 fucking seconds. 75 energy for 4 seconds of detection? Not worth it because each infestor is 2 more hydras which you need to shoot the fucking banshees out of the sky in the first place. And I know TL is 90% full of jackasses who will say "make mutas rather than hydras... And macro." there were 12-15 Vikings flying around. Does anyone remember the mass air for Terran funday Monday? Does anyone remember what happened with the TvP? Hm , let menthink, the Terran went one raven and like 4 Vikings to snipe the observer then the banshees undetected just straight up killed the toss. So before you talk about being so uncommon and unheard of, think back to day 9. And I'm mid-high diamond so this isn't a bronze league occurrence or anything.
How is Zerg detection worse than terran or Protoss Detection?
Yes, the overseer does not have cool abilities like the Raven, but neither does an Observer.
Yes, the Overseer is easily snipable but easily rebuilt(and don't say to me that Zerg can't afford 100 gas not to die) I mean, 100 gas 50 mins and 17 seconds and don't come to me saying that it costs 150 minerals because overlords are something you build anyways.
A Spore crawler takes 30 seconds to build and costs 75(plus 50 from the drone). If anything when a Zerg needs emergency detection they are the ones who can easily have it anywhere they have Overlords. If you get the speed Upgrade overseers outrun the normal speed of units in SC2.
Also overseers are opened to any daring Zerg that techs to Lair. If you are going to delay Lair to get a better economy and don't try to at least scout where the Gas from a T or a P is going you should be building some safety spore crawlers(did I mention they Build super fast?).
I just don't get it, if a P is caught by Cloacked\ Burrowed units and he doesn't have a Forge or dared not to build a Robo Facility they are dead. Ifa Terran is out of Orbital Energy when a cloacked or Burrowed units enter their base they will suffer a lot of Damage too.
I mean both T and P have to give up something(economy in most of the cases) to be safe against Cloacked units.(And yeah while a Scan doesn't cost you anything but Energy its inane to say that they are not giving up on something).
If you are dying to cloacked rushes its nothing more than your lack of scouting or playing risky(See how Nestea played in the GSL finals). If you are suffering a lot of damage from Cloacked units late/mid game that is also your own damn fault, and by that time Overseers are quite available.
Lets compare stats:
Mobile detection:
Zerg: -Overseer. requires Lair, costs 50 mins 100 gas, same speed as an unupgraded observer.Takes 17 seconds to build.Also, doesn't cost food.Has spells that have little offensive use..Speed can be upgraded Protoss: -Oberver: requires a Robotics facility, costs 25 mins and 75 gas. Takes 40 seconds to build(aprox 26 seconds when Chrono Boosted ). Take up 1 Food.Cloacked. Less HP than an Overseer.No extra abilities. Speed can be upgraded. Terran: -Raven:Costs 100 mins 200 gas(!!). Takes 60 seconds to build, has less HP than an Overseer, better speed than un upgraded obs\overseer. uses 2 food, requires a starport with a techlab.
Static detection: Zerg: 125 mins and 35 seconds for an evo chamber + 125 and 30 seconds for the spore crawler. The spore crawler has more HP than a Turret and a Cannon. Can only attack air. Terran: 125 mins and 35 seconds for an E-bay+ 100 mins and 25 seconds for a turret. Turret has less HP than a photon cannon and less than a spore crawler. can only attack air. Protoss 150 mins and 45 seconds for a forge +150 mins and 40 seconds for a cannon. Cannon has less HP than a spore but slightly more than a Turret.
Special case:
Scanner sweep. Which is readily available as long as you have energy on your any of your OCs, lasts 12.3 seconds and you give up mules and supply drop for that.Still I think Terran got the better end of the detection.
After seeing all that I just don't get why Zergs have problem with detection, their detection can come faster(as in emergency detection), is sturdier and is of comparable cost than the detection of the other 2 races.
Sorry if I sound confrontational, but to me it seems that on terms of detection all 3 races are even. Hell I'd even say that Zerg post Lair are Race with the Best Emergency detection capabilities as they will always have Overlords to morph, while a P and a Terran will need to invest additional money or at least give up on economy to get detection.
Edit: Forgot to add.
About T and P not needing to invest in detection that is because Zergs are not threatening enough with burrowed units. One thing that is terribly underused are offensive tunneling claws and baneling mines for Map control, of course that is up to the players to use.
On June 09 2011 07:44 Mr. Enchilada wrote: It was on scrap station where the base is so fucking huge and he hid them in the corner. Of course I had to suicide units to deny an expansion you fucktard. You expect me to turtle on my 3 base whileterran can literally go take EVERY expansion!? NO. I had to suicide to deny the expansion. And while agree you need infestors and that that was my own fault. BUT let's say you didn't have an infestation pit and low and behold it gets sniped by all the banshees and I need all y gas to survive, until my lair is up and I have enough to support infestors I'm fucked. That's what happened in this game. I also counter attacked his base repeatedly. Buy without enough time to get infestor support banshee Viking kills Zerg. I saw something in a tournament a bit after the game launched where the Terran did the SAME build. Know what Tastosis said the respOnse was? Infestors. Why? Because they reveal the unit for 8 fucking seconds. 75 energy for 4 seconds of detection? Not worth it because each infestor is 2 more hydras which you need to shoot the fucking banshees out of the sky in the first place. And I know TL is 90% full of jackasses who will say "make mutas rather than hydras... And macro." there were 12-15 Vikings flying around. Does anyone remember the mass air for Terran funday Monday? Does anyone remember what happened with the TvP? Hm , let menthink, the Terran went one raven and like 4 Vikings to snipe the observer then the banshees undetected just straight up killed the toss. So before you talk about being so uncommon and unheard of, think back to day 9. And I'm mid-high diamond so this isn't a bronze league occurrence or anything.
Again you describe games where a terran went some stupid build that's not popular and probably terrible if you actually learn to deal with it properly. Stop using these gimmicky game as some kind of huge example of how hard zergs have it. No pros i've seen have used this tactic which shows it's not that good.
Overseer morph is 17 ingame seconds which is, i believe, even lower on "faster" game speed. 12 stalkers need to blink forward to kill a overseer in one volley, if you have two overseers i can't see how it's worth it. Maybe have overseers on a different hotkey and keep them in the back of your army as their detection range is huge? Maybe spread them like protoss does with templars? There's more ways of developing the actual play of zergs instead of suggesting changes just cause it's more comfortable.
I haven't suggesting any changes, not to the game at least... Just that zergs should morph a few more overseers and keep them with their army when they're playing against a protoss. It's arguably not the best usage of gas but at at least it doesn't take supply... And they can always be used to contaminate later... Unlike corruptors.
Also not sure where you got the 12 stalker number. Overseers have 200 health stalkers do 14 -1 damage to armored?
Yeah i was wrong, it's actually 16 stalkers to oneshot a 1 armor overseer. I was using the example of +3 weapons stalkers, that's where the number came from.
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Overseer detection sucks for obvious reasons. Yeah Overseers themselves are a useless unit besides their detection ability (and even blizzard admits it).
Overseers seem to detect just as well as ravens... also, you can build them whenever you want without using up supply or prod fac time, and they DO do something besides detect, and that's be a supply depot.
Well but this is how zerg works. Getting basic units from basic structures. It simply comes with the larva mechanism, that some basic things have to be easily accessible, to be there in time, while tech with a "my enemy has to react" concept has to be later accessible, else zerg would just roflstomp everyone with a 5min mutarush or something like that. (Imagine overseers requiring a spire... You would simply die in every PvZ to 6gate. Or imagine it requiring a hydra den. It had simply no use in ZvT) And about the supply depot ability: as most people in this thread said an overseer costs 50/100 I decided to judge him on this costs. With supply depot ability you have to count him has 150/100 and you really don't need the overseer part for that... And I really want to add that the overseer has one ability, we never see used in high level play, as changelings can be fought by APM, so I just think it is a bad ability, if you can beat ingame resources with outofgame resources. (and contaminate has proven to be not worth risking a 150/100 unit, which you have to rebuild)
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze.
A scan doesn't cost anything, but it represents an 'opportunity cost' of the minerals that a mule would have mined over its lifespan. That's a mule you can't use, since you scanned. Good DT expo play relies on the terran player to be unable to push out without effectively 'losing' hundreds of minerals to opportunity cost, lowering his army size in that respect.
Im not saying that scaning is for free. But they are meant to scan once or twice for scouting purposes and they are meant to have scans for mobile detection, so I refuse to acknowledge every scan as a "should be"-mule and I also refuse to acknowledge every mule as 275minerals, as they still have to mine it (which takes some time) and have a backfire too, as you bases will run out pretty quickly. (which means heavy muling leads to more investment into faster expanding)
Yeah Photon canons and Turrets help versus or shut down a lot of our harass options(roaches, infestor, mutas, drops), and it sucks, that because of premptive antimuta turrets, noone can ever do infestor harass.
And anti-banshee spore crawlers also kill medivacs if you try to marine drop, and anti-phoenix spore crawlers also work against DTs. Photon cannons are more flexible in that they hit ground.
Well, at least in my eyes there is a certain theme how races are supposed to work, and for zerg this would be techswitching, while Protoss and Terran are both meant to pick techpaths (especially terran). I guess in this context you can see, how I think of turrets having a great use against lots of zerg's techs is somewhat of more annoying as for Protoss and Terran in the midgame, who might just not be supposed to have a robo/stargate/high warptech army opposed to zerg, which is supposed to have a spire, a roach warren and an infestation pit with burrow. Not saying that spores on various bases don't suck for the other races too, though I think it has more impact on Zerg play.
Yeah "gas comparing" comments about the early game and early midgame are just dumb, as zerg has to invest in expanding earlier and droning earlier, and therefore simply can't take his gases as fast as terran or protoss.
your words, not mine-- there's a variety of zerg builds that take early gas, and either mine from it all game, or mine from it for early zerglings or roaches, then stop, or take late gasses (as late as spanishiwa's build, even). In the same sense, the good macro-heavy TvZ opening, a 2 rax pressure FE, doesnt' take gasses until the command center for the expo is started, and even then it feels like tanks come out slow, relative to terran fast gas builds that get hellions or banshees-- builds that, mind you, set you back economically since you expo late and have less minerals, and make you vulnerable to early attacks since you don't have marauders, tanks or stim.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have NEVER seen a high level zerg taking 2gases early. One gas yes, and this is usually for speed, very rarely we see a fast lair coming from it so a comparison "robo 100gas, observer 75gas" ~= "lair 100gas, overseer 100gas", which I have seen in this thread is just bullshit. This is just bad argumentation, you cannot compare the costs of races in such a linear way, as they are different from each other and require different things. (f.e. at some point you need zerglingspeed as zerg, or you need at least 1sentry early as protoss; while you don't need to invest into an expansion as protoss or terran if zerg does not expand)
BUT: this is how zerg works, and this is how the game works. DT harass mid to lategame and vulnerable overseers in armies are annoying, but part of it. If blizzard changes this, horray! If not build that freaking spore crawler at each base, and if you don't have the APM for splitting some zerglings of your army, I guess you will still have to build a spinecrawler. And if you lose because one of those "Zerg only needs to 1a" but "forcefielding a doublesized ramp tightly with 10overlapping forcefields shows real skill" guys did his little DT lategame "oh I hope he is not prepared, because Starcraft is a game which you win by crossing your fingers harder than your opponent"-cheese: Turn on the GSL and watch NesTea roflstopming those allinning noobs and learn from him!
oh nvm it seems we largely agree.
I actually think protoss has the most restrictive detection, for a number of reasons: 1) outside of the static defense (photon cannon), protoss has only one detector, the observer, unlike zerg's 2 (infestor and overseer) and terran's 3 (scan, ghost, and raven). 2) The protoss detector comes out of its high tech, slow producing robo facility, competing for time with immortals, colossi, and warp prisms 3) the protoss detector, while it benefits from being cloaked, is laughably easy to destroy-- 1-shotted by thors, among other things. 4) if protoss doesn't specifically go robo, and techs to HTs or stargate first, he has to make cannons to detect, whereas terran will always have orbital commands, and every zerg tech gets lair on the way-- he can easily be trapped in his base, and unlike terran who can scan or zerg who can turn any supply depot into a detector, he has to go down a NEW TECH PATH to get his detection.
well, if you want to know my opinion: yes I think protoss has the worst detection in some kind of way, but as blizzard knew from BW, in PvZ Protoss needs canon also I think every other race would love to trade the observer for the raven or the overseer yeah fungal and EMP detect, but storm (and on purpose exploded banelings) does terrible damage to cloaked units too, so protoss are not completly without alternate ways of dealing with cloaked units (also colossus splashes cloaked units, when they hit a nearby unit)
On June 09 2011 06:26 karpo wrote: Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help.
Congratulations, you proved yourself to be incapable of either reading or understanding the comments of others. You trying to veil it in some kind of "every zerg that recognizes that their race has flaws too is a whiner" mentality doesn't really help.
Really, tell me why you think the zerg race does not have flaws and noone may write about them. I guess a discussion about this would end in: you have to remove 2 of the 3 races to make the game perfect!
On June 09 2011 06:26 karpo wrote: Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help.
Congratulations, you proved yourself to be incapable of either reading or understanding the comments of others. You trying to veil it in some kind of "every zerg that recognizes that their race has flaws too is a whiner" mentality doesn't really help.
Really, tell me why you think the zerg race does not have flaws and noone may write about them. I guess a discussion about this would end in: you have to remove 2 of the 3 races to make the game perfect!
I wrote that cause your post didn't provide anything worthwhile. There's really nothing to understand about this, it's zerg whine in a sea of zerg whine about a million different things. It's tiresome to read zergs posts about everything being worse for them and how they need 10 different changes to be viable.
There's no reason to remove any race as the recent win statistics show that zergs are doing fine in high level play and tournaments.
Regarding "opportunity cost", mules, mining, and sc2: Wolfe explains this way better than I ever could. Buy a GSL pass and watch him here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503 Set 2, on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 minute mark in the VoD, or 16:24 in-game time.
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze.
A scan doesn't cost anything, but it represents an 'opportunity cost' of the minerals that a mule would have mined over its lifespan. That's a mule you can't use, since you scanned. Good DT expo play relies on the terran player to be unable to push out without effectively 'losing' hundreds of minerals to opportunity cost, lowering his army size in that respect.
Im not saying that scaning is for free. But they are meant to scan once or twice for scouting purposes and they are meant to have scans for mobile detection, so I refuse to acknowledge every scan as a "should be"-mule and I also refuse to acknowledge every mule as 275minerals, as they still have to mine it (which takes some time) and have a backfire too, as you bases will run out pretty quickly. (which means heavy muling leads to more investment into faster expanding)
If you make a mule instead of a scan, 90 seconds later, you will have ~270 more minerals than if you scanned. How does scanning not cost 270 minerals? You refuse to awknowledge that each mule is 275 minerals, but that isn't a valid argument.
The fact that mules take time to mine the 275 minerals is a valid argument. It takes a minute and a half, it's not an instant bonus. However, that doesn't mean a scan is worth 0 instantaneous minerals; you could also use a supply drop in place of building a supply depot, so a scan is EITHER worth 100 minerals right now or 275 minerals over the course of 90 seconds, but it's definitely worth something, and the fact that you can sacrifice DTs early on to impact terran macro, and terran's mobile non-scan detection is harder to reach than overseers... well yeah.
Also... dude. Overseer production isn't limited by the larvae mechanic unless you seriously derped a lot of overlords. You can always make as many overseers as you want whenever you want if you have the resources for it, unless youw ant to make more overseers than you have overlords... the ability to simultaneously produce overseers without ANY IMPACT on your production facility (larvae) is huge. Protoss has to stop colossus production, Terran has to stop making 2x medivac or 2x viking, or stop making banshees to make a raven, and both of these races can only make one at a time.
Zerg usually can make multiple units at a time, but at the cost of larvae for other units-- if you make roaches or lings, you have fewer larvae for drones or hydras. This is not the case for overseer production. With this quick detector production, along a tech route that every zerg player always takes, and with detectors doubling as both flying scout units and as supply depots, I contend that zerg has the best detection out of all three races.
I actually think the observer is weak (versus Terran). 2-3 Vikings plus a Raven (or even without, just a scan then), and suddenly there is nothing you can do about cloaked Banshees apart from retreating and hugging a cannon until you get a new observer - which will be killed just as fast again.
I can see the OPs concern about blink stalkers and overseers, however morphing a new overseer only takes 17 (blizzard-)seconds which is like a joke compared to the observers 40s (plus eventually having to cancel an immortal/colossus in a panic situation); and of course morphing an overseer doesn't block unit production in the first place. Now an overseer has a lot of hitpoints compared to an observer. Why don't protoss cry about their obs being sniped and DTs raping them? Because their spotter unit is cloaked? That doesn't help you much in gold league or higher any longer. So I don't think the overseer is weak at all - somewhat pricy but still fine imho. I guess you have to start microing it (aka not having it in your army hotkey and just a-clicking everything together).
3 things we have to consider in detection. Ease of availability -zerg- as soon as lair is unlocked any overlord can become an overseer. -terran- highest tech required in order to unlock raven, offset by scan -protoss- forces robo tech, offset by low cost
Longevity -zerg- overseers aren't very fast compared to most anti air, medium hit points -terran- ravens can deploy certain defenses to keep them alive although still slow -protoss- observers with perma cloak and a speed upgrade theoretically are best equiped to survive.
Opportunity cost (explained above, great post) -zerg- with the exception of the minerals/gas required not much difficulty in producing detection -terran- losses valuable medivac/viking production, gains powerful caster, scan/mule/supplydrop -protoss- losses valuable robo unit production
i think zerg take the cake in their easy access and opportunity cost and would argue that zerg have the easiest detection. i understand i only argued on the mobile detectors themselves, but lets be honest you can't say a spore crawler is worse than a missle turret or cannon.
On June 09 2011 06:26 karpo wrote: Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help.
Congratulations, you proved yourself to be incapable of either reading or understanding the comments of others. You trying to veil it in some kind of "every zerg that recognizes that their race has flaws too is a whiner" mentality doesn't really help.
Really, tell me why you think the zerg race does not have flaws and noone may write about them. I guess a discussion about this would end in: you have to remove 2 of the 3 races to make the game perfect!
I wrote that cause your post didn't provide anything worthwhile. There's really nothing to understand about this, it's zerg whine in a sea of zerg whine about a million different things. It's tiresome to read zergs posts about everything being worse for them and how they need 10 different changes to be viable.
There's no reason to remove any race as the recent win statistics show that zergs are doing fine in high level play and tournaments.
So in your opinion I must not critizise anything in the game or suggest something about it? I guess you are in the wrong place then. This is a forum, and people are here to discuss stuff.
On June 09 2011 17:19 Blazinghand wrote: Regarding "opportunity cost", mules, mining, and sc2: Wolfe explains this way better than I ever could. Buy a GSL pass and watch him here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503 Set 2, on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 minute mark in the VoD, or 16:24 in-game time.
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze.
A scan doesn't cost anything, but it represents an 'opportunity cost' of the minerals that a mule would have mined over its lifespan. That's a mule you can't use, since you scanned. Good DT expo play relies on the terran player to be unable to push out without effectively 'losing' hundreds of minerals to opportunity cost, lowering his army size in that respect.
Im not saying that scaning is for free. But they are meant to scan once or twice for scouting purposes and they are meant to have scans for mobile detection, so I refuse to acknowledge every scan as a "should be"-mule and I also refuse to acknowledge every mule as 275minerals, as they still have to mine it (which takes some time) and have a backfire too, as you bases will run out pretty quickly. (which means heavy muling leads to more investment into faster expanding)
If you make a mule instead of a scan, 90 seconds later, you will have ~270 more minerals than if you scanned. How does scanning not cost 270 minerals? You refuse to awknowledge that each mule is 275 minerals, but that isn't a valid argument.
The fact that mules take time to mine the 275 minerals is a valid argument. It takes a minute and a half, it's not an instant bonus. However, that doesn't mean a scan is worth 0 instantaneous minerals; you could also use a supply drop in place of building a supply depot, so a scan is EITHER worth 100 minerals right now or 275 minerals over the course of 90 seconds, but it's definitely worth something, and the fact that you can sacrifice DTs early on to impact terran macro, and terran's mobile non-scan detection is harder to reach than overseers... well yeah.
Also... dude. Overseer production isn't limited by the larvae mechanic unless you seriously derped a lot of overlords. You can always make as many overseers as you want whenever you want if you have the resources for it, unless youw ant to make more overseers than you have overlords... the ability to simultaneously produce overseers without ANY IMPACT on your production facility (larvae) is huge. Protoss has to stop colossus production, Terran has to stop making 2x medivac or 2x viking, or stop making banshees to make a raven, and both of these races can only make one at a time.
Zerg usually can make multiple units at a time, but at the cost of larvae for other units-- if you make roaches or lings, you have fewer larvae for drones or hydras. This is not the case for overseer production. With this quick detector production, along a tech route that every zerg player always takes, and with detectors doubling as both flying scout units and as supply depots, I contend that zerg has the best detection out of all three races.
The biggest issue is the fact that each overseer costs 100 gas. However, making them cost less gas will also not be a particularly good change. The reason is because contaminate is a really powerful spell when used well. Blizzard has an almost unbalance-able situation because lowering the price may be too big a buff to the overseer’s spell casting ability, while the current price is probably a too high.
Personally, I thought Blizzard was and should’ve just made it so Zerg gets an upgrade (separate from drop and speed) that gives overlords detection capabilities when I first heard that detection was going to be changed from BW to SC2. That works much better in my opinion.
On June 09 2011 06:26 karpo wrote: Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help.
Congratulations, you proved yourself to be incapable of either reading or understanding the comments of others. You trying to veil it in some kind of "every zerg that recognizes that their race has flaws too is a whiner" mentality doesn't really help.
Really, tell me why you think the zerg race does not have flaws and noone may write about them. I guess a discussion about this would end in: you have to remove 2 of the 3 races to make the game perfect!
I wrote that cause your post didn't provide anything worthwhile. There's really nothing to understand about this, it's zerg whine in a sea of zerg whine about a million different things. It's tiresome to read zergs posts about everything being worse for them and how they need 10 different changes to be viable.
There's no reason to remove any race as the recent win statistics show that zergs are doing fine in high level play and tournaments.
So in your opinion I must not critizise anything in the game or suggest something about it? I guess you are in the wrong place then. This is a forum, and people are here to discuss stuff.
People are here to discuss tactics, tournaments, pros, streams etc. From what i've read balance threads are not really appreciated. These discussions are like watching left and right wing politicians argue, neither will ever change his mind and they just go on and on and on without really listening to eachother.
Bottom line is that i personally haven't seen more than a few pro games where cloaked units have won the match, especially not recently. IF pro's start losing alot of games due to trouble with detection we can talk about changing stuff. Idra vs MC last game at MLG is not a great example as MC outplayed Idra and had about 50% higher APM all through the match.
I checked the replay and it was 170 - 250 APM average for Idra and MC respectively.
Late game ZvP protoss offten gets DTs. Its become so common that people now plant two spines and a spore at every expo. Which also give you enough time to react to other things like warp ins, air harrass and full on attacks. The spines and spore is not there to she down DTs all together, they are there to alert the player.
You may stay that zerg has the 'weakest' detection because overseers are slow etc, but the overseer can do more then just detect. It is the perfect scout thanks to changlings, you can stop building from producing with contaminate. And lets not forget that the overseer is morphed from an overlord. You could, if you wanted to, get 20 overseers in the time it takes to morph one, until the other races which have to build their detectors one at a time.
I've covered cloak units attacking expos, you also mention DT's in an army. This is also quite common, but easily recogniseable. The DT has a very unique sound, once you've played for a while you get atuned to it and then you fine you can see them almost as clear as if they weren't cloaked. With the increase in infestor use from alot of zergs, myself included, fungal growth it key to stopping protoss armys of all kinds, including one with DTs. I rarely find myself loosing a game to DTs anymore because i just funal then making then useless.
On a side note, has anyone ever tried neural paraciting a DT? I really want to try it, i think it would be AWESOME!
So DT harass is a big problem late game for zerg. OK, then as mentioned does it really cost THAT much to invest in some spore and spine crawlers, considering the fact that the toss already invested in DTs. I don't see how Blizzard can make it easier for zergs to fend off DT harass. By the time DTs become a threat, zerg should be at 4/5 bases and you are telling me that they cannot afford a few overseers or a few spines/spores at the expansion? Not to mention that spines/spores can move around. I haven't really seen a zerg struggling with the money, by the time DT harass comes or some sort of cloaked banshee attacks, so I don't see how the argument of expensive detection is relevant.
I'm guessing someone already said this, but blizzard hates overseers and there one of the first units they will be changing/removing for HotS..... (And reapers)
I think that only real problem you are listing is: "The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep"
But thats a problem of a race. While Z is getting burrow to survive a 6gate (for example) and P can just pull back if he doesn't have obs. Z will just outright die if he is caught without detection with dt's/banshes streaming in.
On June 09 2011 20:03 kezaron wrote: I'm guessing someone already said this, but blizzard hates overseers and there one of the first units they will be changing/removing for HotS..... (And reapers)
Don't forget immortals...they intended for them to end up as tanking units, not dd's
Against Blink you really need to control your overseer and keep it in the back of your army so that a blink would cost him A LOT of stalkers. Also I d always morph another one when you know he s engaging you with DTs. It might be hard to keep them alive, but it s not impossible. But I see your point that they get taken out too easy by stalkers. On the other hand I wouldn t like detection for overlords(after Lair-tech) because it would make it too easy to deal with DTs.
why do you think terran don't mass an army of banshee/ghost and a couple of viking to snipe observer/overseer?
answer: if you saw mass cloaked units, you should have 2-3 detectors. during the time it takes your opponent to kill the detectors, his army has melted because cloaked units are like expensive toilet paper.
btw once you hit +2 melee upgrades, 3 banelings will always kill a DT.
The main problem with Z detection overall, in my opinion, is that overseers are very weak defensively. Observers have the advantage of being cloaked and small, making them harder see(even when detected) and to target when with an army. There are many circumstances that can result in losing your observer very fast but that's another story(eg.vikings). Terran scans are virtually invincible.
Overseers, on the other hand are fairly large and easily targeted. This factor could also potentially be game-changing, as seen in MLG Columbus IdrA vs MC game 6, where IdrA could maybe have defended against the counter-attack better had his overseer not gotten sniped after the battle.
I think this will be something they address in HoTS I didn't mind overlords being detectors But i don't think its broken Lair before dts is reasonable Need to at least come close to keeping up with tech instead of massing other things is important. Terran Lag D << Zerg Lag D < Protoss Lag D but i would argue early army Terran >> Zerg > Protoss (excluding all ins, shady boundaries based on B.O.) (Z and P based on size really. i.e. trying to hold off a roach ling without cannons)
On June 09 2011 20:29 Gotmog wrote: I think that only real problem you are listing is: "The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep"
But thats a problem of a race. While Z is getting burrow to survive a 6gate (for example) and P can just pull back if he doesn't have obs. Z will just outright die if he is caught without detection with dt's/banshes streaming in.
That's really a problem with Protoss in general that, IMO, deserves a topic of it's own.
i always thought that zerg has the best type of detection all you need is lair any you can make an overseer at any point in time you can even make one right next to DT/banshee attacking you while terran has biggest variety in that regard(scan, MT, EMP, Raven) scans cost them money ghosts need aiming and both ghosts and ravens are high cost high tech unit with limited use. While toss has invisible detector it requires robo if you dont get it and enemy goes for fast cloak banshee you die, getting observers also limits your colossus production, protos also has only 2 ways of detection no active ability does that
another thing in the text that i cant agree with is statement that zerg uses his burrow only defensively proper use of burrow roaches if opponent has no detection can be devastating he he cant 1 shot a clump of roaches with enough colosi/immortals burrowed roaches will just regenerate and attack again with no losses, also 2 burrowed infestors sneaking into enemy base can wipe entire mineral line with fungals or kill CC/Nexus/Hatch with infested terrans super fast
I agree overseers are a bit over-priced. And me being a protoss player I feel observers are a little bit to cheap.
But the only problem with getting observers is that it forces the protoss to go through robotic tech tree. Unlike the other races we can't work our way up to moving detection through protoss tech tree.
If zergs pick and choose games to prove a point i could say that Top vs Nestea shows that terran detection is bad. Baneling landmines cost next to nothing and can be spread all over the map. Scans aren't viable as crossing a large map requires 3-4 scans and the zerg can burrow banelings behind the terran army to blow him up when he retreats. Ravens are slow, costs more than a overseer and can easily be sniped by the incredibly fast muts.
I don't really feel like that but it could easily be argued. Can't we just agree to wait and see what happens, the level of play and refinement is increasing all the time.
On June 09 2011 21:58 ePAttack wrote: I agree overseers are a bit over-priced. And me being a protoss player I feel observers are a little bit to cheap.
But the only problem with getting observers is that it forces the protoss to go through robotic tech tree. Unlike the other races we can't work our way up to moving detection through protoss tech tree.
Colossi being the cornerstone units that they are, I have to disagree that protoss players are grudgingly 'forced' to go through robo tech. Another common gripe is that observers eat into colossus production time, because they pop out of the same building. Might i point out that protoss players often make the observer after a robo finishes, or while making a support bay; therefore, the only ways observer production impedes colossus production are: 1.You want/need more observers, due to the first one getting killed etc 2.75 gas cost, delaying your robo support bay
Also, even if you need to slip in an observer in between colossi, chronoboost offsets its build time somewhat.
On June 09 2011 17:19 Blazinghand wrote: Regarding "opportunity cost", mules, mining, and sc2: Wolfe explains this way better than I ever could. Buy a GSL pass and watch him here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503 Set 2, on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 minute mark in the VoD, or 16:24 in-game time.
On June 09 2011 05:58 Big J wrote:Yeah Terrans that say a scan "costs" 275minerals should be immidiatly demoted from silver to bronze.
A scan doesn't cost anything, but it represents an 'opportunity cost' of the minerals that a mule would have mined over its lifespan. That's a mule you can't use, since you scanned. Good DT expo play relies on the terran player to be unable to push out without effectively 'losing' hundreds of minerals to opportunity cost, lowering his army size in that respect.
Im not saying that scaning is for free. But they are meant to scan once or twice for scouting purposes and they are meant to have scans for mobile detection, so I refuse to acknowledge every scan as a "should be"-mule and I also refuse to acknowledge every mule as 275minerals, as they still have to mine it (which takes some time) and have a backfire too, as you bases will run out pretty quickly. (which means heavy muling leads to more investment into faster expanding)
If you make a mule instead of a scan, 90 seconds later, you will have ~270 more minerals than if you scanned. How does scanning not cost 270 minerals? You refuse to awknowledge that each mule is 275 minerals, but that isn't a valid argument.
The fact that mules take time to mine the 275 minerals is a valid argument. It takes a minute and a half, it's not an instant bonus. However, that doesn't mean a scan is worth 0 instantaneous minerals; you could also use a supply drop in place of building a supply depot, so a scan is EITHER worth 100 minerals right now or 275 minerals over the course of 90 seconds, but it's definitely worth something, and the fact that you can sacrifice DTs early on to impact terran macro, and terran's mobile non-scan detection is harder to reach than overseers... well yeah.
Also... dude. Overseer production isn't limited by the larvae mechanic unless you seriously derped a lot of overlords. You can always make as many overseers as you want whenever you want if you have the resources for it, unless youw ant to make more overseers than you have overlords... the ability to simultaneously produce overseers without ANY IMPACT on your production facility (larvae) is huge. Protoss has to stop colossus production, Terran has to stop making 2x medivac or 2x viking, or stop making banshees to make a raven, and both of these races can only make one at a time.
Zerg usually can make multiple units at a time, but at the cost of larvae for other units-- if you make roaches or lings, you have fewer larvae for drones or hydras. This is not the case for overseer production. With this quick detector production, along a tech route that every zerg player always takes, and with detectors doubling as both flying scout units and as supply depots, I contend that zerg has the best detection out of all three races.
If you make a pair of zerglings instead of a Drone (+40minerals per minute) how can you say that in a 13min game a 3min zergling doesn't cost 10*40=400minerals more than a drone (=a total of 450minerals). Maybe one reason: Because making a zergling might allow you to survive or make 2more drones.
Maybe some reasons: How can I not say that a scan is worth 270minerals? because it allows you to start viking production and not lose the game because your opponent builds colossi. Or bunkers, because your opponent is going to banelingbust you, and you would die otherwise (so a scan is often times just straight up better than any amount of minerals you might have in 90sec) How can I not say that a scan is worth 270minerals? because you can scan when you have 0minerals, but you can't build a zergling (which costs 50minerals, regardless of the time when you build it) with 0minerals. How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because you build an orbital command for 150minerals and get a scan. How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because sometimes a mule doesn't return it's last minerals to the base (depending on how far away the mineral patch is, from which the mule mines from), so statistically a mule doesn't mine 270minerals. How can I not say, that a scan is worth 270minerals? because mules mine more than 270minerals from a gold expansion.
Ever thought about that: Comparing mules and scans is just apples and oranges. Just like comparing Overseers and Ravens... Overseers are the standard detection for zerg, Ravens not for terrans. Just because all races have 1static and 1mobile detection, doesn't mean you can compare them. Like you cannot compare Zerglings to Marines (the first mineral only units). Siege Tanks to Colossi (the to ground siege units). Or Carriers to Ultralisks (the T3 6supply units).
On June 09 2011 21:55 GinDo wrote: If Zerg has the worst detection why is it that Terrans no longer Cloak rush in TvZ at higher levels? It still is good against Toss and Terran?
lol, lots of highlevel terrans cloak rush. GSL ST spoiler + Show Spoiler +
ogsTop vs IMNesTea
Overseers are cheap compared to other detector units. And Zerg always have the bigger econ anyhow.
Zergs don't have the better economy anyhow... Zergs have the better economy most of the time because macro zerg is the standard style against a solid terran/protoss style, but some players like KyrixZeNEX or ST_July play off a lower economy than their opponents a lot of times.
On June 09 2011 06:26 karpo wrote: Congratulations, you added another zerg balance whine post to the already huge list. You trying to veil it in some kind of "deal with it" mentality doesn't really help.
Congratulations, you proved yourself to be incapable of either reading or understanding the comments of others. You trying to veil it in some kind of "every zerg that recognizes that their race has flaws too is a whiner" mentality doesn't really help.
Really, tell me why you think the zerg race does not have flaws and noone may write about them. I guess a discussion about this would end in: you have to remove 2 of the 3 races to make the game perfect!
I wrote that cause your post didn't provide anything worthwhile. There's really nothing to understand about this, it's zerg whine in a sea of zerg whine about a million different things. It's tiresome to read zergs posts about everything being worse for them and how they need 10 different changes to be viable.
There's no reason to remove any race as the recent win statistics show that zergs are doing fine in high level play and tournaments.
So in your opinion I must not critizise anything in the game or suggest something about it? I guess you are in the wrong place then. This is a forum, and people are here to discuss stuff.
People are here to discuss tactics, tournaments, pros, streams etc. From what i've read balance threads are not really appreciated. These discussions are like watching left and right wing politicians argue, neither will ever change his mind and they just go on and on and on without really listening to eachother.
Bottom line is that i personally haven't seen more than a few pro games where cloaked units have won the match, especially not recently. IF pro's start losing alot of games due to trouble with detection we can talk about changing stuff. Idra vs MC last game at MLG is not a great example as MC outplayed Idra and had about 50% higher APM all through the match.
I checked the replay and it was 170 - 250 APM average for Idra and MC respectively.
Yeah, that's why my original post said: Stop the QQ and deal with the fact that Zerg (like any other race) is not great at everything. well, I have seen a lot of games that won people games through cloaked units, maybe we are just watching different games, and I would really not measure players on APM, as koreans tend to spam APM anyway and different races require different kinds and amounts of APM. (haven't seen the MLG game, can't talk about that, but just from what I have seen generally)
I think the main reason this comes up as an issue is that a lot of us zerg players played the race in broodwar where detection was one of the strengths of the race, now its not only higher tech but much more limited due to cost. This is defintely a huge nerf in the eyes of broodwar zerg players.
On June 09 2011 22:14 Thezzy wrote: The main advantage of Overseers is that they can always be made anywhere as long as you have a Lair and the resources.
Ravens and Observers require a specific building and construction time and then need to fly to wherever they are needed.
Zerg can morph the nearest Overlord to the problem and you got your detection.
The main disadvantage is the resource cost.
They're effing SQUISHY. Sure they can do a flyby and survive one Queens fire but run an overseer by a few stalkers or marines or hydras.
All of a sudden you have no way to detect during the battle unless you spam multiple overseers.
You're talking like protoss get dark templars for free. God forbid it cost you 100 gas and a few seconds to get an overseer when Protoss invests 375 minerals, 475 gas and 150 seconds to get a dt.
The same thing could be said if zerg used overseers with corrupters or hydras to snipe observers then burrow roaches (which are extremely strong unburrowed right next to/underneath the enemy. I don't think it's a problem. He snipes your overseer(s) your retreat while making another one.
On June 09 2011 17:19 Blazinghand wrote: Regarding "opportunity cost", mules, mining, and sc2: Wolfe explains this way better than I ever could. Buy a GSL pass and watch him here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503 Set 2, on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 minute mark in the VoD, or 16:24 in-game time.
If you make a pair of zerglings instead of a Drone (+40minerals per minute) how can you say that in a 13min game a 3min zergling doesn't cost 10*40=400minerals more than a drone (=a total of 450minerals). Maybe one reason: Because making a zergling might allow you to survive or make 2more drones.
Okay, you clearly didn't read my post, despite quoting it.
Wolf is a professional sc2 caster who works for GSL. Listen to him talking in this match, on set 2, which is the game on bel'shir beach, at the 11:20 mineu mark in the VoD, or the 16:24 minute mark in the game. Listen to him for 2 minutes-- he explains opportunity cost in sc2 in the way I understand it. http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65503
You'll need to purchase a GSL ST pass to watch this, but it looks like you already have one, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
On June 09 2011 21:35 Striding Strider wrote: Burrow is hardly a defensive only ability..
Oh yeah, you can shoot while burrowed?
It is a keep-your-units-alive-a-little-longer ability, it can be a positional ability (for roaches/infestors only, if you get another upgrade), but in no way is it an offensive ability.
Compare it to cloak. Detected DTs can still one-shot workers/marines. Detected banshees can still do tons of damage. Detected burrowed units can only die.
Since I'm already a zerg qq-er...
On June 09 2011 21:48 Thezzy wrote: A PF or Cannon isn't exactly free either.
PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas
Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals
Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones) OR Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones)
Seems fine to me.
The zerg option is the most expensive and least powerful. That sucks.
I don't expect each species to be equally good at everything, but it makes your argument look really silly if your math contradicts your point.
On June 09 2011 21:35 Striding Strider wrote: Burrow is hardly a defensive only ability..
Oh yeah, you can shoot while burrowed?
It is a keep-your-units-alive-a-little-longer ability, it can be a positional ability (for roaches/infestors only, if you get another upgrade), but in no way is it an offensive ability.
Compare it to cloak. Detected DTs can still one-shot workers/marines. Detected banshees can still do tons of damage. Detected burrowed units can only die.
You can shoot infested terrans out.
Also, infestors with burrow can move without additional upgrades.
You can't say that a positional ability isn't offensive. Thorship rush relies on providing a thor with strong positional abilities. Can it shoot while it's in the medivac? no... but it gains so much mobility that a slow bulky unit can be used offensively, until hydras or mutas come out.
you can't disjoin position from movement.
Last thing: when you say "detected burrowed units can only die", you're not correct; they can also unburrow.
On June 10 2011 11:09 Blazinghand wrote: You can shoot infested terrans out.
That's not an attack... The egg takes 5 seconds to hatch and has 100 health, so there's a ton of time to completely neglect that energy expense. The Infested Terran also can't attack while hidden.
On June 10 2011 11:09 Blazinghand wrote: Last thing: when you say "detected burrowed units can only die", you're not correct; they can also unburrow.
I dont get the OP. We are talking late game so if both players are of even skill then the Zerg has a bigger economy. Maybe the threat of DT harass is meant to curb the Zerg's economy ever so slightly. It's really not that big of a deal to notice that if the Protoss has blink, +2 weApOns or armour, that DTs may be possible. And really, in late game, it's not like you are going to be hard pressed to spare a few minerals for some static defense at an expansion. We Protoss have to put 5 or 6 cannons up at our expansions. Its not like we just throw 1 up and that means were safe from burrowed roaches.
In short - deal with it. How do I as a Protoss know that all of a sudden a baneling bomb is going to rain down on all of my mineral lines? No need for a new thread, it's just something I have to get better at sensing.
Dustin Browder said the Overseer may be removed/replaced in HotS Does that mean Zerg gets a new detection unit? Overlords maybe get an ability to detect?
We'll have to see but it'll be changing "possibly".
On June 09 2011 21:48 Thezzy wrote: A PF or Cannon isn't exactly free either.
PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas
Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals
Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones) OR Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones)
Seems fine to me.
The zerg option is the most expensive and least powerful. That sucks.
I don't expect each species to be equally good at everything, but it makes your argument look really silly if your math contradicts your point.
How is Zerg the most expensive and least powerful? A PF and a Turret is powerful yes, but it comes at the cost of not building an Orbital Command, providing less Mules/Scans. It also costs the most gas.
Nexus/Pylon/Cannon only has the one cannon for defense although it does allow for warp-in. Still, if you snipe the pylon, no warp-in can save the expo.
Hatchery/Crawler/Spine does cost slightly more than the Protoss version (but only 25 minerals, out of 650), but it allows you to move your Spore Crawler and your Spine Crawler and the hatchery itself provides unit production, whereas the Nexus and PF can only make workers.
The overseer version is the most expensive (although I'd consider 750min and 50gas to be cheaper than 650min and 150gas for the PF/Turret) but it uniquely allows mobile detection. Especially against any cloaked units that try to run, the Overseer can stay with them and allow you to kill them off.
Each race has advantages and disadvantages, but I'd hardly say Zerg is somehow the weakest of the bunch when it comes to expansions.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
1. how about making a little more than ONE overseer? and keep them behind ur army? 2. can u please explain to me HOW force field can MINIMIZE the damage when a bunch of stalkers BLINK INTO UR BALL OF ROACH HYDRA>
On June 10 2011 10:45 Wren wrote: Since I'm already a zerg qq-er...
On June 09 2011 21:48 Thezzy wrote: A PF or Cannon isn't exactly free either.
PF + Turret = 650 minerals, 150 gas
Nexus + Pylon + Cannon = 650 minerals
Hatchery + Crawler + Spine = 525mins (+150 mins from 3 drones) OR Hatchery + Overseer+ Spine = 650mins 50gas (+100 mins from 2 drones)
Seems fine to me.
The zerg option is the most expensive and least powerful. That sucks.
I don't expect each species to be equally good at everything, but it makes your argument look really silly if your math contradicts your point.
How is Zerg the most expensive and least powerful? A PF and a Turret is powerful yes, but it comes at the cost of not building an Orbital Command, providing less Mules/Scans. It also costs the most gas.
Nexus/Pylon/Cannon only has the one cannon for defense although it does allow for warp-in. Still, if you snipe the pylon, no warp-in can save the expo.
Hatchery/Crawler/Spine does cost slightly more than the Protoss version (but only 25 minerals, out of 650), but it allows you to move your Spore Crawler and your Spine Crawler and the hatchery itself provides unit production, whereas the Nexus and PF can only make workers.
The overseer version is the most expensive (although I'd consider 750min and 50gas to be cheaper than 650min and 150gas for the PF/Turret) but it uniquely allows mobile detection. Especially against any cloaked units that try to run, the Overseer can stay with them and allow you to kill them off.
Each race has advantages and disadvantages, but I'd hardly say Zerg is somehow the weakest of the bunch when it comes to expansions.
the thing with PF and turret though is that it also provides protection against other things than dt's to kill a pf you also need a shitload of zerglings for instance.
Completely agree with the OP. Played a game vs my protoss friend and was 100 supply ahead, but then he just warped in 12 dts and sniped my overseers with blink and they're so damn expensive to replace. He told me I had 10 overlords over my army that could have been overseers, but that's so much gas for the most unreliable detection ever. No idea why they're so expensive anyway, they don't actually do anything. Protoss gets an invisible detector for 25/75 and one that's way way way worse and counts as supply, costs more. I think DT blink late game could become really hard to stop.
No idea why they're so expensive anyway, they don't actually do anything. Protoss gets an invisible detector for 25/75 and one that's way way way worse and counts as supply, costs more. I think DT blink late game could become really hard to stop.
On June 14 2011 00:20 nuMi22 wrote: Completely agree with the OP. Played a game vs my protoss friend and was 100 supply ahead, but then he just warped in 12 dts and sniped my overseers with blink and they're so damn expensive to replace. He told me I had 10 overlords over my army that could have been overseers, but that's so much gas for the most unreliable detection ever. No idea why they're so expensive anyway, they don't actually do anything. Protoss gets an invisible detector for 25/75 and one that's way way way worse and counts as supply, costs more. I think DT blink late game could become really hard to stop.
but if u make 10 overseers, u win the game. would u do it?
people need to realize that MASS DT is basically an all-in move of itself
I think our detection as Zerg is rather fine, specially the effectiveness of Protoss mid-late game DT's strenght is based on the sloppyness of the Zerg player. Any base can have a spine+spore and be fine against DT's. If you find that a to big of an investment I suggest having an overseer on patrol between your bases, it's simple, cheap and effective.
Armywise I see no reason to not make a couple of overseers when your maxed and ready to push out, rather be safe then sorry.
i guess the biggest problem is that the overseer is a caster and most people don't even use its skills and just use it as a floating expensiv detector, those people could actually use a spore and save gas (though zergs in general have a higher gas income which makes the overseer pretty cheap as its gas expensiv heh). As for base defense vs dts banshees and ghosts, zerg is the best and cheapest. Concerning the pf, 2 dts can outmicro a pf and. overseer + queen allows to snipe observers and abuse burrow, so a zerg has dts in their army by default so to say. So in generall a toss using only one observer is suddenly having a big problem as burrow regene kicks in. Also fungal and banelings are pretty good dt killers. zerg has a wide collection of anti cloaked unit skills. That they are harder to pull of is simply because they have non detection vision on the whole map most of the time, making harassment in general really weak.
I really prefer zerg vision mechanics over the other races. because they are so damn cheap even though they need constant caring.
On June 14 2011 00:40 FeyFey wrote:As for base defense vs dts banshees and ghosts, zerg is the best and cheapest.
How is this the case? Zerg: You need 2 spines and a spore to defend adequately against DTs: (spine 100 + drone 50) x 2 = 300 (spore 75 + drone 50) = 125 -3 larva -3 harvesters Total: 425 minerals and 3 larva/harvesters per base
Protoss: Photon Cannon 150 Total 150 minerals per base
Terran: optional Turret 75 (scan can take the place of the turret) PF: 150/150 Keep in mind, it's rare to see a T take a 3rd base that doesn't end up a PF for just general defense Total: 225/150 per base
Also keep in mind Zerg requires more bases than both T and P
completely disagree with the premises of this thread...and saying something like burrowing banelings is daft is kind of silly. Burrowed banelings if you use the ling/bling strat into infestors are actually really good against gateway pushes to wreck out all the sentries.
Overall detection at lair or speed or whatever would be way to powerful. Having to put up a couple extra overseers considering the cost of DT's to make the ineffective or some spore crawlers is really no big deal imo.
On June 14 2011 00:40 FeyFey wrote:As for base defense vs dts banshees and ghosts, zerg is the best and cheapest.
How is this the case? Zerg: You need 2 spines and a spore to defend adequately against DTs: (spine 100 + drone 50) x 2 = 300 (spore 75 + drone 50) = 125 -3 larva -3 harvesters Total: 425 minerals and 3 larva/harvesters per base
Protoss: Photon Cannon 150 Total 150 minerals per base
Terran: optional Turret 75 (scan can take the place of the turret) PF: 150/150 Keep in mind, it's rare to see a T take a 3rd base that doesn't end up a PF for just general defense Total: 225/150 per base
Also keep in mind Zerg requires more bases than both T and P
No, you need 1 spore with vision and some combat units that you already have to make DTs do nothing, which comparatively is a pretty good deal (considering how much it costs the P player to get a single DT). If you want to push out you spend 50/100 on a unit that can fly, is armored with 200hp and doesn't cost any supply.
Get infestors, use fungal growth, stop complaining. If you see any type of cloaked unit, its time for infestors. you dont need detection, you just fungal and kill it as fungal reveals cloaked units.
i think zerg is the most scouting heavy race and its the hardest race to scout with to. i dont have a problem that it takes more skill to scout. zerg have good detection with oveerseer thats cheep
On June 14 2011 00:40 FeyFey wrote:As for base defense vs dts banshees and ghosts, zerg is the best and cheapest.
How is this the case? Zerg: You need 2 spines and a spore to defend adequately against DTs: (spine 100 + drone 50) x 2 = 300 (spore 75 + drone 50) = 125 -3 larva -3 harvesters Total: 425 minerals and 3 larva/harvesters per base
Protoss: Photon Cannon 150 Total 150 minerals per base
Terran: optional Turret 75 (scan can take the place of the turret) PF: 150/150 Keep in mind, it's rare to see a T take a 3rd base that doesn't end up a PF for just general defense Total: 225/150 per base
Also keep in mind Zerg requires more bases than both T and P
No, you need 1 spore with vision and some combat units that you already have to make DTs do nothing, which comparatively is a pretty good deal (considering how much it costs the P player to get a single DT). If you want to push out you spend 50/100 on a unit that can fly, is armored with 200hp and doesn't cost any supply.
This is kind of a bad thread.
No. Try again. I assume you don't play Zerg because having a spore and units to kill a DT means you got lucky. Unlike how T and P are played, good Z players keep their units out on the map to scout and when attacking, a Zerg base is basically a ghost town. If a Zerg has to keep units back at each base, then that's N additional cost per unit and valuable supply to have units just sitting there JUST IN CASE he sends some DTs into that base.
You have to get the 2spines+spore at each base or risk losing when you move out. as a Master ranked Zerg I throw down 2 spines and a spore at each base at even the hint of DTs. I've lost far too many potentially-won games because 1 or 2 bases didn't have spores and spines and my units (e.g. hydras) were all the way across the map. I'm not the only one who does this, I pretty much see every pro do this same 2spine+spore configuration as well. Sometimes it's not even enough if the Protoss is clever about where and when he sends in his DTs
" If you want to push out you spend 50/100 on a unit that can fly, is armored with 200hp and doesn't cost any supply." I have no idea what you are talking about; Zerg has no such unit as this.
I can't even explain how many times I've lost lategame vP because he tech DT's lategame and runs 2-3 DT's into my remaining bases and snipes all the drones + the hatch before I can even react. -_-
Zerg detection is... you've got to be kidding me it takes a few seconds to get a overseer, and most zergs are getting lair tech anyways unless you are roachling allin in WHICH case you deserve to get steamrolled. and no. just. no.. you guys have the BEST detection other races HAVE to go other tech paths to get it. consider yourself LUCKY you have a detection unit that is easy to acquire!
I'm bumping quite an old thread but due to the removal of the overseer I think it might be time to start discussing things again.
I think the viper replacing the overseer brings along a couple of new problems. This is only based on theory though, but I'm fairly sure I'm right about it. One can only imagine that the Viper is further up the tech tree than the overseer. I think we can all agree that a flying spell caster will at least be lair tech and probably need some kind of other building to be made. Now the overseer was Zerg's only mobile detection and it was essential when taking a third base vs DT play. You could not get the third up if you hadn't removed the DT that was waiting at the expansion. With the the removal of the overseer and the addition of the Viper I think Zergs now have to wait significantly longer in order to take that third.
Other problems like scouting difficulties that derive from not having that overseer will be left out for now. What do you guys think?
Yeah there will be immediate problems, zergs will have to come up with other ideas like spitting creep and placing spores at thirds
When does the viper come out, because if it is lair tech then you would get detection at the normal speed, unless it came out of the spire......... oh god if this comes out of the spire, detection will not be present for ages! im starting to worry now :O
Protoss need to get Robo-Tech for real mobile detection... Terrans need to get Starport-Tech for real mobile detection...
So where is the problem?
If you don't go Robo as P , you just lose to cloak/burrow etc.. So it'll be just fair, if you don't go Spire as Z , you lose to these situations as well.
Getting detection should be a consideration while choosing your tech. Not taken for granted.
Even the terran scan is only temporary, since they have no static ground-to-ground defence that can detect.
From what I've read it sounds like the Viper only needs Lair. Just like the Overseer. The only problem I saw was that it's a bit of an expensive unit. 100/200?
Once it is up it is OP imo... every unit in your army could feasibly be a detector... aka any cloaked unit is effectively useless once it is up... sniping detectors or depleting scan energy is a big part of cloaked unit play and thats gone.... Personally I'd DT rush a zerg every game with the current unit spells. Vipers make DTs and colossus useless once they are out :/
if you are whining about detection in the upcoming expansion you are doing so way, way, way too early as it is still a long ways away. if you are whining about your current mobile detection that is absolutely absurd.
They can't keep it that way, 200 gas for the first mobile detection is too much. And please stop saying it's the same for terrans with ravens, they have SCANS it's ridiculous saying it's the same. And you could always build turrets where you want while covering the construction time with scans.
Edit : There is a very simple solution, keep overseers (what is wrong with them anyways? I never saw anyone complain about them, and since they cost 50/50 I've seen them in a lot of pro games) and take the silly detection spell away from th viper. That way Blizzard can balance the viper without being hindered by the detection problem.
im not super experienced with zerg, but doesnt the zerg 3rd finish vs toss(giving time to put up a spore) before any 2+ base dts are out anyways. like finish WAY before. 1 base dt vs zerg is a different story but quite easy to scout and an awful build in general. and banshees are a complete nonissue in this discussion IMO as you need spores to reliably zone them out anyways.
On October 22 2011 17:44 Iatrik wrote: Protoss need to get Robo-Tech for real mobile detection... Terrans need to get Starport-Tech for real mobile detection...
So where is the problem?
If you don't go Robo as P , you just lose to cloak/burrow etc.. So it'll be just fair, if you don't go Spire as Z , you lose to these situations as well.
Getting detection should be a consideration while choosing your tech. Not taken for granted.
Even the terran scan is only temporary, since they have no static ground-to-ground defence that can detect.
dude do u realize how long it takes to make spire..
On October 22 2011 17:50 NeonFox wrote: They can't keep it that way, 200 gas for the first mobile detection is too much. And please stop saying it's the same for terrans with ravens, they have SCANS it's ridiculous saying it's the same. And you could always build turrets where you want while covering the construction time with scans.
It is 200 gas for infinity detectors AND a good all around unit. Zerg detection will be better than ever.
On October 22 2011 17:50 NeonFox wrote: They can't keep it that way, 200 gas for the first mobile detection is too much. And please stop saying it's the same for terrans with ravens, they have SCANS it's ridiculous saying it's the same. And you could always build turrets where you want while covering the construction time with scans.
Edit : There is a very simple solution, keep overseers (what is wrong with them anyways? I never saw anyone complain about them, and since they cost 50/50 I've seen them in a lot of pro games) and take the silly detection spell away from th viper. That way Blizzard can balance the viper without being hindered by the detection problem.
i disagree as the viper looks to be a staple unit and static detection is just fine at that stage in the game, but i agree with your point about the overseer. it had a pretty solid and balanced role after the latest patch IMO.
On October 22 2011 17:50 NeonFox wrote: They can't keep it that way, 200 gas for the first mobile detection is too much. And please stop saying it's the same for terrans with ravens, they have SCANS it's ridiculous saying it's the same. And you could always build turrets where you want while covering the construction time with scans.
It is 200 gas for infinity detectors AND a good all around unit. Zerg detection will be better than ever.
too good I doubt it goes through personally... I also doubt its other move goes through.. the pull one.
On October 22 2011 17:44 Iatrik wrote: Protoss need to get Robo-Tech for real mobile detection... Terrans need to get Starport-Tech for real mobile detection...
So where is the problem?
If you don't go Robo as P , you just lose to cloak/burrow etc.. So it'll be just fair, if you don't go Spire as Z , you lose to these situations as well.
Getting detection should be a consideration while choosing your tech. Not taken for granted.
Even the terran scan is only temporary, since they have no static ground-to-ground defence that can detect.
Yea, except robo tech is what you want to actually do anyways. Spire tech sucks. Its like putting obs at stargate tech. You need to go out of the way for it or you lose to some banshees, but if you do then your midgame army is either slow or shit.
So in a way, it's like saying that it comes at infestation pit since that's what you want anyways. Except even not really because ZERG TECH TAKES TWICE AS LONG AS THE OTHER RACES.
On October 22 2011 17:50 NeonFox wrote: They can't keep it that way, 200 gas for the first mobile detection is too much. And please stop saying it's the same for terrans with ravens, they have SCANS it's ridiculous saying it's the same. And you could always build turrets where you want while covering the construction time with scans.
It is 200 gas for infinity detectors AND a good all around unit. Zerg detection will be better than ever.
Did you read the stuff from the panel? It's a one time spell.
On October 22 2011 17:44 Iatrik wrote: Protoss need to get Robo-Tech for real mobile detection... Terrans need to get Starport-Tech for real mobile detection...
So where is the problem?
If you don't go Robo as P , you just lose to cloak/burrow etc.. So it'll be just fair, if you don't go Spire as Z , you lose to these situations as well.
Getting detection should be a consideration while choosing your tech. Not taken for granted.
Even the terran scan is only temporary, since they have no static ground-to-ground defence that can detect.
Terran and Protoss is nothing like Zerg.
You don't have to get more bases than your opponent as Terran or Protoss to be able to throw cost inefficient units at the opponent
Thats why we need early bases in the early game, expanding to a 3rd teching to lair and building a spire just won't work to tell DTs waiting at the 3rd to piss off.
On October 22 2011 17:50 NeonFox wrote: They can't keep it that way, 200 gas for the first mobile detection is too much. And please stop saying it's the same for terrans with ravens, they have SCANS it's ridiculous saying it's the same. And you could always build turrets where you want while covering the construction time with scans.
It is 200 gas for infinity detectors AND a good all around unit. Zerg detection will be better than ever.
Did you read the stuff from the panel? It's a one time spell.
Thats not what everyone has been saying.... if so then I guess thats more manageable...
On October 22 2011 17:50 NeonFox wrote: They can't keep it that way, 200 gas for the first mobile detection is too much. And please stop saying it's the same for terrans with ravens, they have SCANS it's ridiculous saying it's the same. And you could always build turrets where you want while covering the construction time with scans.
It is 200 gas for infinity detectors AND a good all around unit. Zerg detection will be better than ever.
I stand corrected. Reread the changes and it's a 1 time use spell. However, if it's impossible to tell which unit has the detection, then it could still be really powerful. We'll just have to see, and Zergs may have to make the same sacrifice as Terrans and build their detector buildings for reliable detection early game.
On October 22 2011 17:50 NeonFox wrote: They can't keep it that way, 200 gas for the first mobile detection is too much. And please stop saying it's the same for terrans with ravens, they have SCANS it's ridiculous saying it's the same. And you could always build turrets where you want while covering the construction time with scans.
It is 200 gas for infinity detectors AND a good all around unit. Zerg detection will be better than ever.
I stand corrected. Reread the changes and it's a 1 time use spell. However, if it's impossible to tell which unit has the detection, then it could still be really powerful. We'll just have to see, and Zergs may have to make the same sacrifice as Terrans and build their detector buildings for reliable detection early game.
I'm not even sure that this choose a hero detection unit is a good thing for zerg. what unit should be the detector. A random roach which I now have to keep out of the battle? I lose a fighting unit or it might die randomly? I feel like the only good option is indeed the overlord in which case u also need speed. so lair + spire + viper + speed. that does not make sense imo
Don't make up that it needs spire as requirement guys. It doesn't say so anywhere and I think someone pointed out that the only requirement might be Lair. Only future can tell. Personally I don't think it's a good idea to include detection on that unit simply becaus you have to make too many trade-offs.
The next thing that popped into my head immediately was the scouting difficulties. If might sacrificial overlord gets killed I would morph an overseer and send it in, what do now? I think this will be tweaked as soon as the beta goes live, it kinda has to.
On October 22 2011 17:44 Iatrik wrote: Protoss need to get Robo-Tech for real mobile detection... Terrans need to get Starport-Tech for real mobile detection...
So where is the problem?
If you don't go Robo as P , you just lose to cloak/burrow etc.. So it'll be just fair, if you don't go Spire as Z , you lose to these situations as well.
Getting detection should be a consideration while choosing your tech. Not taken for granted.
Even the terran scan is only temporary, since they have no static ground-to-ground defence that can detect.
Yea, except robo tech is what you want to actually do anyways. Spire tech sucks. Its like putting obs at stargate tech. You need to go out of the way for it or you lose to some banshees, but if you do then your midgame army is either slow or shit.
So in a way, it's like saying that it comes at infestation pit since that's what you want anyways. Except even not really because ZERG TECH TAKES TWICE AS LONG AS THE OTHER RACES.
I very much like the Viper's other spells, but my solution to the detection issue would have been much more straightforward: remove the Overseer, and give zerg a Lair tech upgrade to give all Overlords detection. If Broodwar is any indication, that wouldn't make cloaked units against zerg unviable at all.
On October 22 2011 17:44 Iatrik wrote: Protoss need to get Robo-Tech for real mobile detection... Terrans need to get Starport-Tech for real mobile detection...
So where is the problem?
If you don't go Robo as P , you just lose to cloak/burrow etc.. So it'll be just fair, if you don't go Spire as Z , you lose to these situations as well.
Getting detection should be a consideration while choosing your tech. Not taken for granted.
Even the terran scan is only temporary, since they have no static ground-to-ground defence that can detect.
Yea, except robo tech is what you want to actually do anyways. Spire tech sucks. Its like putting obs at stargate tech. You need to go out of the way for it or you lose to some banshees, but if you do then your midgame army is either slow or shit.
So in a way, it's like saying that it comes at infestation pit since that's what you want anyways. Except even not really because ZERG TECH TAKES TWICE AS LONG AS THE OTHER RACES.
stopped reading at spire tech sucks.
If you honestly think mutas are good then you don't realize how incredibly fragile they are. And expensive. And shitty DPS.
I don't understand why they would remove the overseer, this brings zerg back to weaker early game scouting( something that they JUST buffed the overseer for) and the new mobile detection seems extremely cost inefficient. If you need to get a unit that costs 200 gas at lair tech and has a ONE time use spell that turns any unit( and bear in mind zerg units are particularly fragile, with some late game exceptions) into a detector, this just sounds like the riskiest and most unstable form of detection in the game. Yeah protoss has to go robo for their mobile detection, but it's still a very reliable and cheap unit.
On October 22 2011 18:20 Scorch wrote: I very much like the Viper's other spells, but my solution to the detection issue would have been much more straightforward: remove the Overseer, and give zerg a Lair tech upgrade to give all Overlords detection. If Broodwar is any indication, that wouldn't make cloaked units against zerg unviable at all.
ZvP has a much different dynamic in SC2 compared to BW. The main difference being how much more Protoss has to fight for air immunity early game since queens do really well as basic defense. Sniping overlords is much harder in SC2, and such a fast tech switch for P almost is suicidal.
The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
On October 22 2011 17:44 Iatrik wrote: Protoss need to get Robo-Tech for real mobile detection... Terrans need to get Starport-Tech for real mobile detection...
So where is the problem?
If you don't go Robo as P , you just lose to cloak/burrow etc.. So it'll be just fair, if you don't go Spire as Z , you lose to these situations as well.
Getting detection should be a consideration while choosing your tech. Not taken for granted.
Even the terran scan is only temporary, since they have no static ground-to-ground defence that can detect.
Yea, except robo tech is what you want to actually do anyways. Spire tech sucks. Its like putting obs at stargate tech. You need to go out of the way for it or you lose to some banshees, but if you do then your midgame army is either slow or shit.
So in a way, it's like saying that it comes at infestation pit since that's what you want anyways. Except even not really because ZERG TECH TAKES TWICE AS LONG AS THE OTHER RACES.
stopped reading at spire tech sucks.
If you honestly think mutas are good then you don't realize how incredibly fragile they are. And expensive. And shitty DPS.
What the... mutas are incredible, and that comes from a zerg player.
The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
They said it's a hive upgrade, so you won't see them at 7mn, and ultras charge while burrowing, they can't move around. But yeah moveable banelings underground seems weird, and i'm on the edge about dolphinlisks.
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
yeah cuz we rush to hive now in 7 minutes? and roaches are quicker now?
.......
e: I don't see a huge impact on the first 10 minutes ...
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
Banelings can't move while burrowed until an upgrade in hive -.-
On October 22 2011 18:16 Jayjay54 wrote: I'm not even sure that this choose a hero detection unit is a good thing for zerg. what unit should be the detector. A random roach which I now have to keep out of the battle? I lose a fighting unit or it might die randomly? I feel like the only good option is indeed the overlord in which case u also need speed. so lair + spire + viper + speed. that does not make sense imo
The main problem I could see with that is that speed overlords are 1.875 and speed overseers are 2.75. It'll be much harder to keep them with the very mobile Zerg ground army.
Still, I think theorycrafting about how things will be UP or OP at this stage is way, way too early.
The big problem is that the Viper costs 200 gas. Having to spawn a viper from an egg, then slowly fly it over the entire map, and through the enemy base, leaving your base 'undefended' (the same dilemma with obs vs possible banshee from terran, except no chrono boost and its 200 gas) is a horrible replacement for the overseer.
I suppose an argument could be made that the defensive capabilities of the viper allow for zerg to be better to play in the dark (ie like terran can make a bunker or two and be generally safe until they can know whats going on), but at 200 gas it seems quite expensive.
And then the problem is that there is just no overseers. Like how is zerg supposed to scout the opponents base, it's not like flying an overseer a single time at 9 is enough (IF flying the viper is supposed to be the answer).
Seems like a huge gap.
EDIT/PS: It seems like a lot of people are confused about the viper, I guess not everything has been posted yet.
The viper costs 200 gas, and I think it's 4 supply, although could be 2 (dont quote me on that, but it does cost supply is the point, unlike overseer). It morphs from an egg, just like a drone, overlord, ling, etc. I don't recall the build time, but while playing the HOTS at blizzcon today, it felt like it built fairly quickly.
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
Also, it's available as soon as you get lair. No tech building required. Yes, it flies, but no spire needed.
I guess in case anyone is wondering, swarm host is available once you get infestation pit (i think the idea is that its not a great unit, but if you get infestors because you want hive against turtling players or even if you go infestors, you get this cool unit. I think the purpose is to knock on the door of people who turtle, as right now zerg can't really pressure turtlers, they can only really macro up - as said by david kim, by the way, not by a mid-masters zerg who bitches a lot.
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
You mean the units that can only use those abilities at the very earliest at Lair and most at Hive and in the case of roaches require 2 upgrades as apposed to cloaked banshees or DT's that come how soon again?
On October 22 2011 17:45 Jim7 wrote: From what I've read it sounds like the Viper only needs Lair. Just like the Overseer. The only problem I saw was that it's a bit of an expensive unit. 100/200?
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
Lol clearly it's the P/T that are crying with the advent of HoTS if the poll in the other thread is any indication. The zerg poll shows an overwhelming majority liking the Zerg additions + removal.
On October 22 2011 17:45 Jim7 wrote: From what I've read it sounds like the Viper only needs Lair. Just like the Overseer. The only problem I saw was that it's a bit of an expensive unit. 100/200?
or 150/100? (as I guess with its other skills "100/100" would make it too cheap or something stupid like that)
ok this is huge. now 75% of my posts yesterday are flushed down the toilet. why would we get a spellcaster at pure lair. that doesn't even make sense. blinding cloud at lair?
in terms of detection. the timing is alright, the gas investment is still significant
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
Banelings can't move while burrowed until an upgrade in hive -.-
Also you won't get hive in 7 minutes.
I'm a Toss and even I feel bad for Terran in pvz when banelings can burrow move... turrets plus marines at every base? At least the protoss can setup cannons.... so many of these things are going to have to be addressed by blizzard before release... i truly wonder how much of these zerg changes will stay in.... blink ultras? Burrow move banes? Vipers who snatch colossus to their death? Definite potential for issues
Why can't overlords just have detection? What will that do to the game? Will it just mean that Zerg don't autolose to unscouted DTs and Banshees? I don't see any inherent balance issues that are stopping overlords from having detection...
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
Banelings can't move while burrowed until an upgrade in hive -.-
Also you won't get hive in 7 minutes.
I'm a Toss and even I feel bad for Terran in pvz when banelings can burrow move... turrets plus marines at every base? At least the protoss can setup cannons.... so many of these things are going to have to be addressed by blizzard before release... i truly wonder how much of these zerg changes will stay in.... blink ultras? Burrow move banes? Vipers who snatch colossus to their death? Definite potential for issues
I suppose the Shredder will be able to kill burrowed banelings trying to move past it quite effectively; you won't even need to spot them then.
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
Banelings can't move while burrowed until an upgrade in hive -.-
Also you won't get hive in 7 minutes.
I'm a Toss and even I feel bad for Terran in pvz when banelings can burrow move... turrets plus marines at every base? At least the protoss can setup cannons.... so many of these things are going to have to be addressed by blizzard before release... i truly wonder how much of these zerg changes will stay in.... blink ultras? Burrow move banes? Vipers who snatch colossus to their death? Definite potential for issues
Changes nothing for terran. Even in mid-game, terrans are getting turrets at expo's to defend against mutas. Turrets by themselves atm don't stop banelings rolling in to kill workers.
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that people are whining about things they have not even had the chance to play with yet. There's somehow been a meta-game shift without the game even being out. All this theory-crafting is bonkers.
That said, I think that taking a third won't be so insanely difficult if you give an overlord detection (assuming there are DTs out and about). Then, later, I figure giving the Swarm Host detection could be a good choice since it'll be burrowed most of the time (I'm assuming it'll have vision while burrowed.) And since when did Zerg stop getting spore crawlers against banshees? I swear some people act like Zerg has never stopped cloaked banshee harass or DT harass without overseers. Its not some impossible hurdle.
And with scouting, I don't think it's going to be as necessary as it is in WoL. With some of the options being opened up at lair tech, it seems like zerg can take some map control with Vipers and Swarm Hosts giving us time to react to the units we see. Not to mention we still can get the speed upgrade for overlords and float one in now and again to get a good look at the enemy's base.
On October 22 2011 17:45 Jim7 wrote: From what I've read it sounds like the Viper only needs Lair. Just like the Overseer. The only problem I saw was that it's a bit of an expensive unit. 100/200?
or 150/100? (as I guess with its other skills "100/100" would make it too cheap or something stupid like that)
Lmao your wording is hilarious. "Too cheap or something stupid like that", as if the people at Blizzard are idiots and have no idea what they're doing when they set a high cost for a unit that can hook colossi and bring them into your army, and make a sort of disruption web/dark swarm.
People are being completely ridiculous, obviously Blizzard will have a way of creating detection for zerg if it's necessary by the time beta comes out. They're not completely retarded to the point they can't realize DTs and banshees would be strong for map control in the early game. Stop whining for no reason.
On October 22 2011 19:39 Cypher_Brood wrote: I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that people are whining about things they have not even had the chance to play with yet. There's somehow been a meta-game shift without the game even being out. All this theory-crafting is bonkers.
That said, I think that taking a third won't be so insanely difficult if you give an overlord detection (assuming there are DTs out and about). Then, later, I figure giving the Swarm Host detection could be a good choice since it'll be burrowed most of the time (I'm assuming it'll have vision while burrowed.) And since when did Zerg stop getting spore crawlers against banshees? I swear some people act like Zerg has never stopped cloaked banshee harass or DT harass without overseers. Its not some impossible hurdle.
And with scouting, I don't think it's going to be as necessary as it is in WoL. With some of the options being opened up at lair tech, it seems like zerg can take some map control with Vipers and Swarm Hosts giving us time to react to the units we see. Not to mention we still can get the speed upgrade for overlords and float one in now and again to get a good look at the enemy's base.
I love how u complain about theory crafting and then hop right on the train and join the thread welcome.
yeah, taking a third will be hard. and gas heavy.
I don't see why I would get a swarm host early on instead of infestors, I don't think there will be a huge shift. The viper will be used but I don't know how this will affect terran pushes in any way. zerg will still be reactionary.
On October 22 2011 17:45 Jim7 wrote: From what I've read it sounds like the Viper only needs Lair. Just like the Overseer. The only problem I saw was that it's a bit of an expensive unit. 100/200?
or 150/100? (as I guess with its other skills "100/100" would make it too cheap or something stupid like that)
Lmao your wording is hilarious. "Too cheap or something stupid like that", as if the people at Blizzard are idiots and have no idea what they're doing when they set a high cost for a unit that can hook colossi and bring them into your army, and make a sort of disruption web/dark swarm.
People are being completely ridiculous, obviously Blizzard will have a way of creating detection for zerg if it's necessary by the time beta comes out. They're not completely retarded to the point they can't realize DTs and banshees would be strong for map control in the early game. Stop whining for no reason.
you mustve not been playing zerg post beta phase 1.
I'd like to note the HotS changes, regarding scouting.
Scouting will again be the same as it was in the early game no doubt. Sacrificing overlords and zergling ramp peaks, etc. The big difference now is how long will a Viper take to create? how much will it cost? and how much energy will it cost to cast parasite? All of these are things we have no clue about.
However there will be a difference in overlord scouting now. After lair instead of spending 50/50 on an overseer, we now have to spend 100/100 on overlord speed which takes significantly longer than an overseer does. This raises some issues because there may be timings that develop that take advantage of this blind window. Also in the late game, we won't have any "faster" overlords so to speak because speed overseers will be non existant. The great thing about speed overseers was that they could keep up with fast units like zerglings and mutas for the most part.
I think the parasite ability is really cool. To touch on balance/design a little... It would be cool if the Viper was an expensive unit that could cast parasite on enemy units like a SC1 queen. It wouldn't detect, just give vision. The viper should be expensive for what it can do, a new dark swarm and a grab ability seem OP. If this is also our detector, does that not mean it will have to be cheap to an extent? Seems like blizzard is hurting themselves because design says this is a cool ability but balance says the viper has to be expensive due to it's other abilities but also must remain cheap for mobile detection.
about spore crawlers. Yes they work when you want to defend stationary buildings or drones, but they do not work when trying to secure an additional base.
On October 22 2011 18:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The Zerg communities ability to call for IMBA has moved from a knee jerk whine to a very sophisticated and tactical QQ. This preparation of pessimism is truly awe-inspiring. What about the shift in PvZ or TvZ metagame to compensate for the Roaches and Banelings and Ultras that will now be moving while burrowed. The need to mobile detection is going to be beyond a must. Observer-Raven will be mandatory beyond 7 minutes.
Banelings can't move while burrowed until an upgrade in hive -.-
Also you won't get hive in 7 minutes.
I'm a Toss and even I feel bad for Terran in pvz when banelings can burrow move... turrets plus marines at every base? At least the protoss can setup cannons.... so many of these things are going to have to be addressed by blizzard before release... i truly wonder how much of these zerg changes will stay in.... blink ultras? Burrow move banes? Vipers who snatch colossus to their death? Definite potential for issues
That attitude can make anything op
like....
Scourges that do 110 on air units! Kills Carriers so fast! wtf!?!?! Dark swarm that prevents range damage on your units! Banelings that blow everything up Marines have so much dps! no LAN. Blizzard OP! Deathball! Stop my research?!?! Mass recall? OMG how much damage Tempests do. My whole MORE EXPENSIVE THAN YOUR ARMY of mutas is all dead qq oracles, now I have to stop mining, and it can disable my spines so now I have to bring my army to be able to mine again! Replicant...Copy my units wat?!?! Wth Lina in dota can do like 1250 damage with her ulti? WTF Destructible rocks - Wtffffff
Definite potential for issues/etc/etc/etc
(note I'm not complaining about balance...in any of the above games.)
On October 22 2011 17:45 Jim7 wrote: From what I've read it sounds like the Viper only needs Lair. Just like the Overseer. The only problem I saw was that it's a bit of an expensive unit. 100/200?
or 150/100? (as I guess with its other skills "100/100" would make it too cheap or something stupid like that)
Lmao your wording is hilarious. "Too cheap or something stupid like that", as if the people at Blizzard are idiots and have no idea what they're doing when they set a high cost for a unit that can hook colossi and bring them into your army, and make a sort of disruption web/dark swarm.
People are being completely ridiculous, obviously Blizzard will have a way of creating detection for zerg if it's necessary by the time beta comes out. They're not completely retarded to the point they can't realize DTs and banshees would be strong for map control in the early game. Stop whining for no reason.
Maybe read better. I said I vote 100/150 at most. I'm saying personally I'd prefer the unit to be 150/100 or 100/150. and based on what people might say (that it might be too cheap for what it can do - pulling collosi), 100/100 would be too cheap
Cause saying "I vote..." means I'm obviously talking about people at blizzard being idiots and them having no idea. All I'm saying is 200 gas at that point in time that zerg needs detection... 200gas is a pretty heafty price to pay.
On October 22 2011 19:57 emc wrote: I'd like to note the HotS changes, regarding scouting.
Scouting will again be the same as it was in the early game no doubt. Sacrificing overlords and zergling ramp peaks, etc. The big difference now is how long will a Viper take to create? how much will it cost? and how much energy will it cost to cast parasite? All of these are things we have no clue about.
However there will be a difference in overlord scouting now. After lair instead of spending 50/50 on an overseer, we now have to spend 100/100 on overlord speed which takes significantly longer than an overseer does. This raises some issues because there may be timings that develop that take advantage of this blind window. Also in the late game, we won't have any "faster" overlords so to speak because speed overseers will be non existant. The great thing about speed overseers was that they could keep up with fast units like zerglings and mutas for the most part.
I think the parasite ability is really cool. To touch on balance/design a little... It would be cool if the Viper was an expensive unit that could cast parasite on enemy units like a SC1 queen. It wouldn't detect, just give vision. The viper should be expensive for what it can do, a new dark swarm and a grab ability seem OP. If this is also our detector, does that not mean it will have to be cheap to an extent? Seems like blizzard is hurting themselves because design says this is a cool ability but balance says the viper has to be expensive due to it's other abilities but also must remain cheap for mobile detection.
about spore crawlers. Yes they work when you want to defend stationary buildings or drones, but they do not work when trying to secure an additional base.
spot on I think blizz has to split this unit up. It simply cannot be a powerful spellcaster and detector at the same time. It just doesn't work.
On October 22 2011 19:39 Cypher_Brood wrote: I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that people are whining about things they have not even had the chance to play with yet. There's somehow been a meta-game shift without the game even being out. All this theory-crafting is bonkers.
That said, I think that taking a third won't be so insanely difficult if you give an overlord detection (assuming there are DTs out and about). Then, later, I figure giving the Swarm Host detection could be a good choice since it'll be burrowed most of the time (I'm assuming it'll have vision while burrowed.) And since when did Zerg stop getting spore crawlers against banshees? I swear some people act like Zerg has never stopped cloaked banshee harass or DT harass without overseers. Its not some impossible hurdle.
And with scouting, I don't think it's going to be as necessary as it is in WoL. With some of the options being opened up at lair tech, it seems like zerg can take some map control with Vipers and Swarm Hosts giving us time to react to the units we see. Not to mention we still can get the speed upgrade for overlords and float one in now and again to get a good look at the enemy's base.
I love how u complain about theory crafting and then hop right on the train and join the thread welcome.
yeah, taking a third will be hard. and gas heavy.
I don't see why I would get a swarm host early on instead of infestors, I don't think there will be a huge shift. The viper will be used but I don't know how this will affect terran pushes in any way. zerg will still be reactionary.
I do what I can
I know that I'm theory crafting, but I am trying to be as constructive as possible. But I pointed out a good reason to get swarm hosts before infestors. But to elaborate: Swarm hosts come out ready to fight. They don't need energy to cast any spells. They don't need any upgrades so that they are useful straight outta the egg. And I believe they will be good zone controllers.
And I agree zerg will still be reactionary, but I also believe with these new lair tech units, we can give ourselves more time to get what we need. I just don't see taking thirds being significantly more difficult than it already is.
As for dealing with terran pushes, I think of Swarm Hosts as lower tech Brood Lords as in they force tanks to unsiege. And we will still have banelings and speedlings and now with the Viper, we can pull the tanks closer to our army or atleast out of position.
There is no way they are not gonna add another detector for zerg. If Viper is from Spire then you pretty much always going to make spores no matter what.
I think they could just give cheap upgrade for overlord, where overlord just acquires detection for like 50/50 or something.
Infestors with fungal growth, burrowing units that receive parasite from viper, spore crawlers that can be repositioned. Why do zergs think they should be able to have their cake and eat it too? DT opening's are one of the most risky investments you can make as protoss.
New zerg units are also making it more viable to stay even on bases with P/T in some scenarios. You already see this to some extent with mass infestor and upgraded ling compositions by opting for macro hatches before thirds.
On October 22 2011 20:26 acrimoneyius wrote: Infestors with fungal growth, burrowing units that receive parasite from viper, spore crawlers that can be repositioned. Why do zergs think they should be able to have their cake and eat it too? DT opening's are one of the most risky investments you can make as protoss.
New zerg units are also making it more viable to stay even on bases with P/T in some scenarios. You already see this to some extent with mass infestor and upgraded ling compositions by opting for macro hatches before thirds.
the whole point of the thread is how hard it will be to get a third. so zerg is FORCED to be on equal bases until they make a massive gas investement (lair + viper + ov speed). this takes time. spore crawler is not viable offensively (obv) and fungals are really risky (as the only detection) and they're also quite gas heavy.
also as stated above the scouting abilities of the zerg (which weren't that great in the first place) will deteriorate further.
I guess most zergs would agree to keep the overseer in trade of the ocular parasite. it's not a good option, it's a bad one.
On October 22 2011 19:18 justinpal wrote: Why can't overlords just have detection? What will that do to the game? Will it just mean that Zerg don't autolose to unscouted DTs and Banshees? I don't see any inherent balance issues that are stopping overlords from having detection...
Give pylons detection and you have yourself a deal. Think before you type, jesus christ.
On October 22 2011 19:18 justinpal wrote: Why can't overlords just have detection? What will that do to the game? Will it just mean that Zerg don't autolose to unscouted DTs and Banshees? I don't see any inherent balance issues that are stopping overlords from having detection...
Give pylons detection and you have yourself a deal. Think before you type, jesus christ.
I want probes too. Pylons would only be made to detect when i had to move my probe where else
On October 22 2011 20:26 acrimoneyius wrote: Infestors with fungal growth, burrowing units that receive parasite from viper, spore crawlers that can be repositioned. Why do zergs think they should be able to have their cake and eat it too? DT opening's are one of the most risky investments you can make as protoss.
New zerg units are also making it more viable to stay even on bases with P/T in some scenarios. You already see this to some extent with mass infestor and upgraded ling compositions by opting for macro hatches before thirds.
the whole point of the thread is how hard it will be to get a third. so zerg is FORCED to be on equal bases until they make a massive gas investement (lair + viper + ov speed). this takes time. spore crawler is not viable offensively (obv) and fungals are really risky (as the only detection) and they're also quite gas heavy.
also as stated above the scouting abilities of the zerg (which weren't that great in the first place) will deteriorate further.
I guess most zergs would agree to keep the overseer in trade of the ocular parasite. it's not a good option, it's a bad one.
that "massive gas" investment is like 3 sentries man. i just hate it when people think their stuff is so expensive when in reality its not. the viper is going to be the backbone of any good zerg army.
It's still too early to determine anything. We don't know the life or the move speed of the viper, let alone if it has detection or not. In regards to its ability, it does not say if the viper itself has detection (but one can assume that the ability grants detection to whom the eye is attached to, and since the eye is attached to the viper, it should have detection). As of early info, its grant detection is a one time spell but that does not mean that the viper will die after using it.
It was also mentioned that "grant detection" would be the cheapest spell, that could mean that the viper does not start with detection and the player must research it, or the viper has detection but "grant detection" allows the viper to give detection to another unit.
To many questions, we will have to wait for the beta
On October 22 2011 19:57 emc wrote: I'd like to note the HotS changes, regarding scouting.
Scouting will again be the same as it was in the early game no doubt. Sacrificing overlords and zergling ramp peaks, etc. The big difference now is how long will a Viper take to create? how much will it cost? and how much energy will it cost to cast parasite? All of these are things we have no clue about.
However there will be a difference in overlord scouting now. After lair instead of spending 50/50 on an overseer, we now have to spend 100/100 on overlord speed which takes significantly longer than an overseer does. This raises some issues because there may be timings that develop that take advantage of this blind window. Also in the late game, we won't have any "faster" overlords so to speak because speed overseers will be non existant. The great thing about speed overseers was that they could keep up with fast units like zerglings and mutas for the most part.
I think the parasite ability is really cool. To touch on balance/design a little... It would be cool if the Viper was an expensive unit that could cast parasite on enemy units like a SC1 queen. It wouldn't detect, just give vision. The viper should be expensive for what it can do, a new dark swarm and a grab ability seem OP. If this is also our detector, does that not mean it will have to be cheap to an extent? Seems like blizzard is hurting themselves because design says this is a cool ability but balance says the viper has to be expensive due to it's other abilities but also must remain cheap for mobile detection.
about spore crawlers. Yes they work when you want to defend stationary buildings or drones, but they do not work when trying to secure an additional base.
spot on I think blizz has to split this unit up. It simply cannot be a powerful spellcaster and detector at the same time. It just doesn't work.
On October 22 2011 19:57 emc wrote: I'd like to note the HotS changes, regarding scouting.
Scouting will again be the same as it was in the early game no doubt. Sacrificing overlords and zergling ramp peaks, etc. The big difference now is how long will a Viper take to create? how much will it cost? and how much energy will it cost to cast parasite? All of these are things we have no clue about.
However there will be a difference in overlord scouting now. After lair instead of spending 50/50 on an overseer, we now have to spend 100/100 on overlord speed which takes significantly longer than an overseer does. This raises some issues because there may be timings that develop that take advantage of this blind window. Also in the late game, we won't have any "faster" overlords so to speak because speed overseers will be non existant. The great thing about speed overseers was that they could keep up with fast units like zerglings and mutas for the most part.
I think the parasite ability is really cool. To touch on balance/design a little... It would be cool if the Viper was an expensive unit that could cast parasite on enemy units like a SC1 queen. It wouldn't detect, just give vision. The viper should be expensive for what it can do, a new dark swarm and a grab ability seem OP. If this is also our detector, does that not mean it will have to be cheap to an extent? Seems like blizzard is hurting themselves because design says this is a cool ability but balance says the viper has to be expensive due to it's other abilities but also must remain cheap for mobile detection.
about spore crawlers. Yes they work when you want to defend stationary buildings or drones, but they do not work when trying to secure an additional base.
spot on I think blizz has to split this unit up. It simply cannot be a powerful spellcaster and detector at the same time. It just doesn't work.
Ever heard of a thing called Science Vessel?
Science Vessel and Raven are fine because terrans have scan. The thing is, SV and Raven are somewhat late tech, so that justify their power. Problem is that the race need a detector soon than that. Scan does that, spore crawler not so much. If the protoss go DT -> expand, won't we be unable to attack and expand more because we will die in the middleway? We need an unit with detection, something that moves. Can Viper be this early and this powerfull?
On October 22 2011 19:18 justinpal wrote: Why can't overlords just have detection? What will that do to the game? Will it just mean that Zerg don't autolose to unscouted DTs and Banshees? I don't see any inherent balance issues that are stopping overlords from having detection...
Give pylons detection and you have yourself a deal. Think before you type, jesus christ.
On October 22 2011 19:18 justinpal wrote: Why can't overlords just have detection? What will that do to the game? Will it just mean that Zerg don't autolose to unscouted DTs and Banshees? I don't see any inherent balance issues that are stopping overlords from having detection...
Give pylons detection and you have yourself a deal. Think before you type, jesus christ.
On October 22 2011 22:54 CubY wrote: they said it comes out of infestation pit
They said Swarm Host does, not Viper. They said Viper is lair tech. The cost could be the only problem, not being late tech. I doubt it will be much though, the pull ability costs 100 energy, and the new "dark swarm" isn't actually dark swarm, it's disruption web. The other abilities will not be overpowered, just useful in support. I guarantee you won't see some "mass viper" build. Just decent support units and a good idea for detection IMO, that's all.
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I really think taking out the overseer is a good choice, it wasn't even used. Almost every zerg got spores for detection/AA defense, so overseers where rarely seen. Now if you want to have a mobile detector, get the viper, it's on lair tech too. its basically the same, you just need to have an infestation pit (Im not sure) so by the time you had an overseer, you can get a little bit later the viper, which gives ANY unit your so much wanted detection.
The concern I have is in regards to early cloaked banshee and DT rushes. HotS has the same issue as WoL, no scout = lose if you don't have an evolution chamber as Zerg.
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I was never pro remove overseer .....and I doubt anyone with much sense wanted it removed
i think the viper will be fine. u get one and u can infinite dectection. U can make overlords, a queen, another viper?!(OMG) a detector. I especially dont mind because it doesnt require another structure tech in order to produce the viper.
On October 22 2011 23:25 Herr Wilhelm wrote: I really think taking out the overseer is a good choice, it wasn't even used. Almost every zerg got spores for detection/AA defense, so overseers where rarely seen. Now if you want to have a mobile detector, get the viper, it's on lair tech too. its basically the same, you just need to have an infestation pit (Im not sure) so by the time you had an overseer, you can get a little bit later the viper, which gives ANY unit your so much wanted detection.
It's on a completely different route of lair tech and FORCES an early infestation pit. That's bad game design.
Now you need: overlord speed (100/100), infestation pit (100/100) and a Viper (???/???) AND then you also need to WAIT for both the infestation pit and viper to be made, and THEN you can make a detector, meaning your detection will be even slower than currently, AND more expensive, and it will take longer to get a scout on the enemy base as well with an overlord, since you need to wait for speed to research.
Removing the overseer and 'replacing' it with this joke unit completely screws up both zerg detection AND ALSO zerg scouting, making them spend more gas WITHOUT CHOICE vs just getting an overseer or two.
There are serious timing issues which arise from this change more than just zerg having a different detector. The overseer may not have been "interesting", but it was more than just a detector, and it had a completely different timing to anything which requires a structure. The way the Viper could have worked would be if it was built from a hatchery (like a queen), required lair tech, the spellcaster upgrades required something else (e.g. infestation pit) AND it spawned with enough energy/whatever to make a detector unit right away. Oh AND it only takes 1 or max 2 food.
I'm confused. Before we had to get to lair, and then spend some money morphing our Overlords.
Now we have to get to lair tech, and then build a unit (possibly building a pre-req building first...), AND then cast the detection on a friendly unit.
Because unscouted cloaked stuff hitting before/at lair tech wasn't strong enough vs Zerg?
Looks like Evo Chamber + 1 Spore will have to work its way into (my) standard build.
Nothing I've seen in the Blizzard presentations says that the Viper requires Infestation Pit. My understanding is that it requires only a Lair from going through Teamliquid's reports on BlizzConn and watching the panel discussion on YouTube. The Swarm Host requires Infestation pit as I understand it. The concern they were expressing was they didn't want to make the Viper too powerful as it had to be reasonably accessible for detection purposes.
I really like the Viper. It looks far more Zergish to me, like a giant hydralisk / wasp mixture. The Overseer I always thought was a bit of a joke.
idk it does seem a bit far up the tech tree to be honest, but I'm already starting to favor a playstyle that involves getting hive very quickly so I'm not sure this will be a significant problem. The timings and costs and w/e need to be established before we jump to conclusions.
it seems that more and more so the blizzard changes are favoring faster hive tech. the ultra charge, baneling move, and hydra speed are all hive tech upgrades, and the necessity of detection being from infestation pit means that hive availability is opened up much faster. Idk it just makes lair seem to be a stepping stone
On October 23 2011 02:13 Wire wrote: idk it does seem a bit far up the tech tree to be honest, but I'm already starting to favor a playstyle that involves getting hive very quickly so I'm not sure this will be a significant problem. The timings and costs and w/e need to be established before we jump to conclusions.
it seems that more and more so the blizzard changes are favoring faster hive tech. the ultra charge, baneling move, and hydra speed are all hive tech upgrades, and the necessity of detection being from infestation pit means that hive availability is opened up much faster. Idk it just makes lair seem to be a stepping stone
from the people who have play tested HotS the viper is available when lair finishes, and is built from the Lair itself like the queen.
It's possible they make Viper hatch tech but with ONLY the detection spell, at that point it's also a scout cuz it can fly so that hits two birds with one stone, we get a good aerial scout and some detection. They can then make the rest of the spells more expensive on lair tech. So I think it's good overall
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I always use the overseer He will be missed. I use them to scout very often and I keep one at every expansion for lategame DTs, because of too many times where the toss ran in with multiple DTs and just killed my spore(s).
Question about the viper though.. Can he cast the spell on more than one unit or is it only once? And is the Viper a passive detector by itself?
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I always use the overseer He will be missed. I use them to scout very often and I keep one at every expansion for lategame DTs, because of too many times where the toss ran in with multiple DTs and just killed my spore(s).
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I always use the overseer He will be missed. I use them to scout very often and I keep one at every expansion for lategame DTs, because of too many times where the toss ran in with multiple DTs and just killed my spore(s).
Add spine crawlers with spores late game.
No shit I obviously do that. Two spines and two spores can easily be taken out by a couple DTs.
Did you think I just put a spore down and tried to kill the DTs with my drones or something?
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I always use the overseer He will be missed. I use them to scout very often and I keep one at every expansion for lategame DTs, because of too many times where the toss ran in with multiple DTs and just killed my spore(s).
Add spine crawlers with spores late game.
No shit I obviously do that. Two spines and two spores can easily be taken out by a couple DTs.
Did you think I just put a spore down and tried to kill the DTs with my drones or something?
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I always use the overseer He will be missed. I use them to scout very often and I keep one at every expansion for lategame DTs, because of too many times where the toss ran in with multiple DTs and just killed my spore(s).
Add spine crawlers with spores late game.
No shit I obviously do that. Two spines and two spores can easily be taken out by a couple DTs.
Did you think I just put a spore down and tried to kill the DTs with my drones or something?
Add more spines then?
I'm not here to discuss my gameplay as I already have a good way to deal with DTs. I was just saying the overseer isn't useless. It's also not the end of the world that it will be gone either because I can just cast the detector spell on an overlord and use it for the same purpose.
from the people who have play tested HotS the viper is available when lair finishes, and is built from the Lair itself like the queen.
So you probably will be able to cast the spell as soon as the viper is on the field for the same timing as an overseer. Don't you think that blizzard had figured this out?
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I always use the overseer He will be missed. I use them to scout very often and I keep one at every expansion for lategame DTs, because of too many times where the toss ran in with multiple DTs and just killed my spore(s).
Add spine crawlers with spores late game.
No shit I obviously do that. Two spines and two spores can easily be taken out by a couple DTs.
Did you think I just put a spore down and tried to kill the DTs with my drones or something?
Add more spines then?
I'm not here to discuss my gameplay as I already have a good way to deal with DTs. I was just saying the overseer isn't useless. It's also not the end of the world that it will be gone either because I can just cast the detector spell on an overlord and use it for the same purpose.
Maybe you can build two Vipers and cast Ocular Parasite in each other? Voilá!! Overseer 2.0
It seems to me that the viper is basically a better version of the overseer. Available at EXACTLY the same time, flying to help scout, can make any unit a detector, and has useful spells. IMO this is a great change.
It's on a completely different route of lair tech and FORCES an early infestation pit. That's bad game design.
I agree... observer needs to be available at nexus after twilight/robo or stargate IMO.
Protoss... Zerg. Different races. Troll elsewhere.
Yeah, one race requires detection the other does not.
OWAIT
Zerg detection timing and scouting timing isn't particularly related to or relevant to protoss scouting or detection timing. They are different races with different requirements and timings. Zergs can often barely squeak by as it is with regards to overseer timing vs cloaked units. No one is suggesting changing Protoss scouting and detection timings, so it's totally irrelevant to even mention protoss.
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
What? It was only useful AFTER the cut in gas cost...
And I'm pretty sure by "remove overseer" people meant "give overlords the detection they used to have" >.>
from the people who have play tested HotS the viper is available when lair finishes, and is built from the Lair itself like the queen.
So you probably will be able to cast the spell as soon as the viper is on the field for the same timing as an overseer. Don't you think that blizzard had figured this out?
overseer was imba. Anyway spores do the early game detection trick really fine. But i hope you can see if the zerg units have detection with this skill. (didn't watched any footage so far).
On October 23 2011 03:50 EnclaveUSA wrote: What the problem? Terran lose mule (270 minerals later), protoss only from photons and from Robotics Bay. Why not zerg can't get it from spire?
But I want it from separate building.
Timing, scouting and cost are the THREE problems with the change.
1) It comes later than overseers (50 secs to build an Infestation pit, plus the time taken to product the Viper, plus the time taken to give a unit detection and get said unit in the right place, vs 17 seconds to morph an overseer). 2) You can't use overseers to scout with, meaning your scouting is delayed (overlord speed takes 60 secs, morphing an overseer takes 17 secs) 3) Overlord speed is 100/100 (required in order to get a scout). Infestation pit is 100/100 (required for a Viper), and then you add the cost of the Viper. Now you have the equivalent of an overseer, and it's only cost you 4x the minerals and 4x the gas, PLUS the cost of a Viper.
So, what's the problem? All of the above. Zerg already has on the edge detection, and they already have problems when it comes to scouting, and this change makes BOTH bigger problems due to the above.
On October 23 2011 03:50 EnclaveUSA wrote: What the problem? Terran lose mule (270 minerals later), protoss only from photons and from Robotics Bay. Why not zerg can't get it from spire?
But I want it from separate building.
Terran does not lose a mule by scanning though... There was a huge debate about this in the beta.
On October 23 2011 03:50 EnclaveUSA wrote: What the problem? Terran lose mule (270 minerals later), protoss only from photons and from Robotics Bay. Why not zerg can't get it from spire?
But I want it from separate building.
Because spire is actually kind of slow to tech to. In fact, it's faster to tech to dt's than to tech to spire. That seems strange if mobile detection require spire tech. It's faster to tech to thors than it is to spire. And, of course, it's faster to tech to ravens than to mutas.
Imagine if terran's scan can't detect units. The raven would be rather slow to tech to, no? It would be a similar position for zerg, but only the detector would be even slower to tech to.
Consider that a lair takes 100 seconds to morph, and a spire takes another 100 seconds to morph, you can see that when a zerg spawning pool finishes, and when a protoss gateway finishes, the time it takes for a protoss to get a cybercore and then a robo and then a robotics facility is faster than it takes for zerg to get lair and spire up. Of course, making observers require robo-bay would be absurd not just in the resources required, but also in the time necessary. In fact, the cost to get the tech available for a muta and for a colossus is fairly equivalent. Spire costs 250/200, compared to 200/100 and 200/200, and then you have lair cost of 150/100. 400/300 in tech costs from spawning pool/gateway. Pretty absurd, no?
On October 23 2011 04:50 HiTeK532 wrote: I think the biggest problem will come ZvZ with burrowed move banelings .
Burrow is lair tech, though. I doubt banelings will be as relevant as they are in the early game when roaches hit the field. Unless you mean harassment, in which case spores.
This change doesn't harm Zerg in detection at all. It helps them late game and barely affects them early game. Like you said, Overseers are easy to deny. The Ocular Parasite can give any unit detection, meaning you don't have to make multiple Overseers, and you could use the ability on units that don't stick out much. You could even use it on a drone at an expansion with some Spine Crawlers for defense. Late game, detection is much better. Early game the only change is that the Spore Crawler went from highly recommended to necessary. It's not a big deal though, one Spore Crawler at the choke and you're set 'til Vipers hit the battlefield.
YOu can't possibly be having a conversation about worrying about Protoss detection units. We have TWO. Like thats it! As opposed to you're 3, which you can kill our observer with.. Look at Terran.. They shouldn't EVER lose to cloaked units or take near as much damage as any other race because they have an object that can SCAN a section of the map with a HUGE radius. This thread is so pointless.
On October 23 2011 05:23 Antares777 wrote: This change doesn't harm Zerg in detection at all. It helps them late game and barely affects them early game. Like you said, Overseers are easy to deny. The Ocular Parasite can give any unit detection, meaning you don't have to make multiple Overseers, and you could use the ability on units that don't stick out much. You could even use it on a drone at an expansion with some Spine Crawlers for defense. Late game, detection is much better. Early game the only change is that the Spore Crawler went from highly recommended to necessary. It's not a big deal though, one Spore Crawler at the choke and you're set 'til Vipers hit the battlefield.
ok so because overseers are easily denied and zerg looses them the scouting options are better??
it's kinda obvious that the scouting options get worse. a drone between spine crawlers to deny expansion might as well be a spore. so I can really think of any examples were the viper provides better scouting. none at all
On October 23 2011 05:23 Antares777 wrote: This change doesn't harm Zerg in detection at all. It helps them late game and barely affects them early game. Like you said, Overseers are easy to deny. The Ocular Parasite can give any unit detection, meaning you don't have to make multiple Overseers, and you could use the ability on units that don't stick out much. You could even use it on a drone at an expansion with some Spine Crawlers for defense. Late game, detection is much better. Early game the only change is that the Spore Crawler went from highly recommended to necessary. It's not a big deal though, one Spore Crawler at the choke and you're set 'til Vipers hit the battlefield.
2 port banshee.
make 3 banshees. go to opponents base, burst the 1-2 spores really quickly.
holy cow why was this bumped? u guys need to chill with the theory crafting. For god sakes the game doesnt even have a release date and you are all ready to jump all over it. You know how many patch and balance changes / units that will be added or removed in the game by the time it launches? Just chill and wait
On October 23 2011 06:21 BloodThirsty wrote: holy cow why was this bumped? u guys need to chill with the theory crafting. For god sakes the game doesnt even have a release date and you are all ready to jump all over it. You know how many patch and balance changes / units that will be added or removed in the game by the time it launches? Just chill and wait
But...but.. but that's all the low level players have left when they can't play the game at a high level. Don't take that away from them, please.
On October 23 2011 06:21 BloodThirsty wrote: holy cow why was this bumped? u guys need to chill with the theory crafting. For god sakes the game doesnt even have a release date and you are all ready to jump all over it. You know how many patch and balance changes / units that will be added or removed in the game by the time it launches? Just chill and wait
But...but.. but that's all the low level players have left when they can't play the game at a high level. Don't take that away from them, please.
I don't even play starcraft. still I like to talk about it.
I also don't play soccer and talk about it all the time, how good players are and stuff.
what's wrong with that?
and this thread was bumped because the zerg detection is changed significantly and now comes later. that's a fact and not theory crafting. or is that in any kind argueable?
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
Edit: Wow, it sounds like a LOT of people simply don't understand the new units. I don't know if the info hasn't been posted or people don't read, but I was at blizzcon and I'll clear some things up:
1. Viper is available as soon as lair done. It's very slow, and hatches from larva. It builds fairly quickly. There is a concern that, because of the 200 gas cost and having to hatch it, you can't scout in the early midgame with a prepositioned overlord. No idea what they plan to do about it, but right now zerg has no midgame scouting options. Flying an extremely slow viper of 200 gas over the opponents base is really dumb, and you'd have to slowly fly across the whole map. I get that overseer is bad, but they shouldn't completely remove the role, they should replace it. it DOES NOT need spire.
2. Burrow move banes are hivetech. Just like hydra speed. While these changes are super cool, it's not going to change the game dynamics. The viper, for example, may force ghosts, different play styles, more bunkers, et cetera. But hive tech is super late game, it gives options to zerg but this stuff comes too late to alter the course of a game, it only makes them more dynamic in end-game.
Which was never an issue. While I guess Ultra vs BL may be bland, Zerg's late game is mostly fine.
What I think Zerg needs:
1. As evidenced in Nestea vs MVP final game, zerg needs a way to deal with drops once mutas become less viable (thors, aoe, crazy lategame armies, need to have t3 units instead of t2, etc) and zerg is less mobile. Spines just absolutely don't cut it. I really hope we see something like what protoss got with the nexus (i've 'nexus-cannon' rushed so many people. You make a gateway like normal, then get a far pylon. Then make another pylon closer. You can now cannon rush witohut a forge rofl).
2. Lair tech. Zerg's problem is early and mid-game diversity and options (like what terran has i suppose), not end game. Make the hive stuff lair tech (obviously nerfs necessary) or make new stuff. I don't have any suggestions, it's just weird late game was buffed when late game z isn't the prob
How about giving the lair the changeling ability, and making changelings detectors? That way changelings can be used as early game detection, but not really viable late-game, which is where the viper comes in.
^NO ADDITIONAL BUILDINGS NEEDED FOR VIPER. AVAILABLE IMMEDIATELY AFTER LAIR IS DONE.
Swarm host = infestation pit. 2 units! (infestor) for the price of 1 tech building!
The point of the swarm host is to apply mild pressure to hardcore 2/3 base turtles. If you are owning the map, you put crappy swarm hosts out front. They won't do much, but annoying and the opponent has to deal with them somehow, as in move out or waste more in defense.
Why did zerg only get 2 units and the other races get 3, and protoss even get additional base abilities. wtf. no creep or base or queen stuff?
On October 23 2011 17:33 Belial88 wrote: You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
*blinks* There's some summary out there which says the Viper "gives its ocular eye" or whatever to a unit and that it's a one time cast. Where'd they pull that from I wonder...
Edit: Found it in a few places. Unfortunately none of them I've heard of.
On April 26 2011 20:52 decaf wrote: I'm bumping quite an old thread but due to the removal of the overseer I think it might be time to start discussing things again.
I think the viper replacing the overseer brings along a couple of new problems. This is only based on theory though, but I'm fairly sure I'm right about it. One can only imagine that the Viper is further up the tech tree than the overseer.
this is probably wrong
I think we can all agree that a flying spell caster will at least be lair tech and probably need some kind of other building to be made.
no, I don't see that. Another building to be made to activate abilities probably, although I think it will be in the hydralisk den personally.
Now the overseer was Zerg's only mobile detection and it was essential when taking a third base vs DT play. You could not get the third up if you hadn't removed the DT that was waiting at the expansion. With the the removal of the overseer and the addition of the Viper I think Zergs now have to wait significantly longer in order to take that third.
Other problems like scouting difficulties that derive from not having that overseer will be left out for now. What do you guys think?
Hello!
I've been thinking a lot about Zerg detection lately and I have come across some minor things that bug me. This discussion is exclusively about the ZvP matchup, since you don't really need detection in ZvT / ZvZ. This isn't about DT rushes either, if you scout it in time you can get a spore crawler no prob.
First of all, let's take a look at what kind of detection capabilities Zerg got: Spore Crawler - Static defense that loses detection when unrooted; requires evo chamber; only hits air and costs 125 (including the drone) Overseer - Flying unit (fast but with crappy acceleration); costs 150 100; speed upgradeable Infestor Fungal Growth
In comparision the Protoss detectors: Cannon - Static defense; requires forge; hits both air and ground and costs 150 Oberserver - Flying unit; costs 25 75 (and more importantly robo build time), speed upgradeable
What would you need detection for in a ZvP as Zerg: DTs, Oberservers, hallucinated units and as Protoss: All kinds of burrowed units (especially roaches), creep
The first thing that comes to mind is that Protoss only needs detection to combat defensive abilities, such as burrow and creep. Burrowed Zerg units that are able to attack (lurker) are not a threat in sc2. Banelings are a different story; if you burrow banelings against a protoss then your intelligence is questionable.
burrow banelings have an upgrade to move now. That will make them more deadly against stalkers and zealots. The new "lurker" is not like the broodwar lurker, it is an artillery unit.
The biggest threat as Zerg are DTs, which can be used as part of the protoss army or as harassing units - both, though the same unit, need different kind of defenses to be dealt with. Sure you can use Overseers and Spore Crawlers for both situations but that's rather suboptimal (especially the spore crawler vs DTs in army solution).
This is why the viper has an ability to attach parasites to friendly units to give them detection. It will be much harder for protoss to make the equivalent move of sniping overseers now.
Since we're talking about late game DTs usage here, there really isn't a timing for when they are gonna come - every toss likes to mix them in at different point in times and the early and mid game dictates the pace of the late game. This is a huge problem when dealing with DTs. As Zerg you have to prepare in advance in order not to be caught off guard. But it's hard to prepare when there are no timings so you cannot scout properly. You're left with planting spores and spines at all your expansions at random times when you feel it's time to do so. You need about 2 spores and 2 spines per base to deal with DT harass, which can be 12 to 16 drones in late game. But this is only a minor problem, he has to invest in DTs so I have to invest in static defenses to be safe.
vipers are ideal in this situation, because they provide detection both directly and by putting parasites in ground units which cannot be sniped by pheonix, but are also not a useless unit in the army, as they can be used to snipe immortals and colossi, and create no combat zones for stalkers. The viper is the ideal detection solution for DT mixed into the army situations.
The major problem I see is DTs being used as part of the protoss army. First of all it's very hard to figure that they are doing so, cuz DTs are kinda hard to see. If you know that there's a possibility of him doing that then oyu need something more mobile than static defenses - the Overseer. The Overseer is a fast, flying unit that got detection, however its acceleration is really bad. At this point I'd like to compare the Overseer to the mobile detection capabilites of Protoss for one more time. This time we're interested in how easy it is to deny those detectors. Overseer - Not cloacked, bad acceleration, expensive and takes a rather long time ro rebuild: Observer - Cloacked, Cheap (however uses up robo time)
The overseer is farily easy to kill, especially with blink. If the protoss has DTs out then he also has a reason to kill it, which is very important. The Overseer is also VERY key in dealing with offensive stuff like DTs. The observer is fairly hard to kill, it's cloacked and there's not really a reason to kill it (sure it can be nice, but not that important) and its only use is killing defensive abilities.
Everytime the Overseer dies (which is almost immediately due to blink) oyu have to remake it, which takes a pretty long time considering that DTs are out killing your army. You can get several of them simultaneously, but truth is, Overseers are not for free. I consider 150 100 quite a huge investment. Sure, DTs cost money too, but DTs are able to kill stuff as opposed to the Overseer.
Viper. All these problems solved.
Fungal Growth can be good to deal with DTs, especially if he caught you with your pants down and you got no spores at all. It's very situational though. If oyu run out of that very important FG that is meant to soften up his army then you will lose the straight up fight. HTs are also very good at feedbacking infestors and if you try to fungal DTs he brought along with his army then you will waste FGs on DTs and zealots, since the ranged units will be further back and thus out of range. FG can't really be the solution to cloacked units. It's more an emergency scan for Zerg.
Viper doesn't need energy to detect cloaked crap. He should have already casted his parasites well in advance.
I think Zerg detection is too weak to deal with late game DTs with blink. Overseers are too expensive, accelerate too slowly and are very easy to deny.
What do you think? Should Overlords get detection with lair or maybe with overlord speed? That way DT rushes would still be a viable option. Not sure what else Overseers would be useful for then.
edit: Some people fail to see my point, I will elaborate a bit more: Despite the urgency of having the best detection capabilities Zerg got the worst. As Zerg you will need to make 2 buildings to fend off DT harass, one that has detection and one that is able to attack. This is inferior to a cannon which can attack ground and has detection or to turrets given that Terran built a PF. Although Protoss has detection and defense combined in one building there's nothing Zerg got that would deal damage while being invisible (cloaked, burrowed). Having to build 2 buildings instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2 to be super safe is a disadvantage - although Zerg is the one threatened by cloacked units. This directly transaltes to DTs used in armies. An overseer is fairly easy to kill, although Zerg needs that detection badly, while Protoss only needs detection to detect units that cannot attack while being burrowed or to kill creep. An overseer is easy to kill for several reasons: It is armored, blink stalkers deal more damage; it has slow acceleration speed, it's impossible to get away with it after a blink; it's uncloaked. Zerg detection is just too easy to deny. You can either kill the 2 spines or the 2 spores, in both cases you will render the left over buildings useless.
Sure, the protoss player might lose a few stalkers when blinking, but FFs really minimize the damage and having 3 DTs laying slay upon your enemy for several seconds is worth losing a handful of stalkers (which, btw, tank and deal damage while being killed). Also, if the overseer dies you lose the supply cap you gained from making that overlord, so oyu have to replace that overlord. If the Overseer dies it costs 150 100, if it doesn't all game long it only costs 50 100.
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
I don't know if u REALLY played that unit or just talking shit. can someone confirm this? if you're right, then I'm sorry.
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
I don't know if u REALLY played that unit or just talking shit. can someone confirm this? if you're right, then I'm sorry.
Looks like a spire gonna be pretty much needed ASAP, as well as preemptive spores. Imagine you don't have spire and have only 1 spore, 3 DTs comes and snipes that in 1 hit and what are you going to do then without spire lol?
1. it is pretty much comfirmed that this is lair only. no spire needed
also, it is def NOT a detector by default. as u can see in this vid
this hovering eye is the detector, I also think it can't be casted on themselves
edit: @swiftspear:
zerg will still not really force detection. burrow baneling is hive tech and the swarm lord doesnt really force detection immediately.
imo it will be even easier to snipe "the overseer" now. it will be an overlord or an attacking unit with a huge hovering eye on it. I still can't think of any example where the viper detection should be any better than the overseer. maybe u guys can help me.
Maybe the enemy won't be able to see the detector icon, thus making it a slight bit safer. If the enemy can see the icon then zerg detection would be pretty shit indeed.
Nestea style time out a spore crawler to walk to the third as it pops... alternatively, walk it there preemptively and cancel your hatch close by so that you can plant your spore.
Seriously... Zerg getting detection that is both invisible and has superfast health regen doesn't feel at least powerful enough to make up for its lack of "15 seconds and I can have a cheap detector anywhere"?
(if you can put a detect over ANY UNIT you could potentially have an ULTRALISK as a detector.... queen ultra for perma detect xDDD Muta detect for fastest detector in the game sans scan, roach detect for invisible health-regen detect... so many options...)
I think that the viper itself is going to be makeable as soon as lair tech finishes, but then you need to buy upgrades from hatcheries/lairs that will allow it to use the hook pull/blinding swarm spells (like with psi storm and NP), while ocular parasite will be available as soon as it spawns. I think the only trouble then would be how much the viper initially costs. That's what I think would probably be most practical.
I played HotS at blizzcon and I can answer your guys' questions.
Viper only requires a lair and spawns with all it's abilities.
The detection spell costs 50 energy and lasts forever.
The unit gets a little symbol over its head which the enemy can see. (I was 1v1ing my friend who was sitting next to me and I looked on his screen to check.)
The viper can cast detection on itself.
And I know this wasnt specifically asked here but blinding cloud does not work on air units.
On October 24 2011 01:02 Robonord wrote: I played HotS at blizzcon and I can answer your guys' questions.
Viper only requires a lair and spawns with all it's abilities.
The detection spell costs 50 energy and lasts forever.
The unit gets a little symbol over its head which the enemy can see. (I was 1v1ing my friend who was sitting next to me and I looked on his screen to check.)
The viper can cast detection on itself.
And I know this wasnt specifically asked here but blinding cloud does not work on air units.
one time use or multiple?
to the guy with the ultralisk proposal. it's bound to be non-massive.
On October 24 2011 01:02 Robonord wrote: I played HotS at blizzcon and I can answer your guys' questions.
Viper only requires a lair and spawns with all it's abilities.
The detection spell costs 50 energy and lasts forever.
The unit gets a little symbol over its head which the enemy can see. (I was 1v1ing my friend who was sitting next to me and I looked on his screen to check.)
The viper can cast detection on itself.
And I know this wasnt specifically asked here but blinding cloud does not work on air units.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I was sure i had not seen anywhere they had said the Viper itself was a detector but many had made the assumption it was.
How much energy does the Viper spawn with?
Considering it can cast it on itself, i would imagine we will need to keep at least 1 around our base and expansions and in combination with spores should be good to go as the main concern in bases is DT's and Banshees, so with neither being able to snipe the Viper even if Spores are taken out we are still right to go.
Out on the map maybe a combination of a Viper, which you are most likely going to want to have with your army anyway for there shit hot spells, and an Ocular Parasite cast on either an Ovie with speed or a unit in the army.
My biggest concern with the removal of the overseer (not so much the viper but that it replaces the overseer) is that our mobile detection will now cost 200 gas instead of 50 (formerly 100) and that our scouting ability is reduced accordingly (forcing us back into 100/100 for overlord speed to get a reasonable scout or pay 200 gas for the viper).
On October 24 2011 08:32 Swwww wrote: No good scouting unit, no mobile detection before lair and infestation pit. Sounds like zerg is going to be a good race. Wait nopenopenopenopenope
Another guy who was there also backs up what Belial88 was saying about the Ocular Parasite being a multiple use spell.
Ocular Parasite can just be used on one unit at a time, the Viper starts with just enough energy to use this. Lasts on the unit forever until it dies, looks like a mini overseer floating above that unit that the enemy can also see.
The unit doesn't have to die, you can cast it as many times as you have energy from what I tested. I didn't exactly try to put it on my entire 200/200 army or anything, but I don't think there is a limit.
Apparently you can cast it on a unit and burrow it as well.
On October 24 2011 00:08 ddrddrddrddr wrote: Maybe the enemy won't be able to see the detector icon, thus making it a slight bit safer. If the enemy can see the icon then zerg detection would be pretty shit indeed.
They can already tell which overlord is the overseer. I don't think that knowing which unit is a detector will make it any more difficult to keep the detector alive than any other races' detectors (barring scans).
I think the idea of turning a muta into a detector when going muta/ling in TvZ sounds like a novel idea. Also turning queens into detectors because they typically defend banshee/DT rushes anyhow is probably going to become standard. Really, if you have several different control groups operating independently, then you could have a detector in each group.
Primarily, I think zerg will have more available detection than they know what to do with - especially if the detection spell endures after the caster is killed. This will of course be opposed by the fact that zerg units die in droves in large engagements, but if you choose your detectors intelligently then the amount of detectors you have should increase over the duration of the game.
On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote: Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
You can burrow a detector zergling, or even better if you're there in tech, a roach or infestor. Honestly? Deal with it. You guys talk as if Spores don't exist. DTs aren't the problem here...
The problem is ghosts; sniping a unit with a giant eye on it is going to be no problem. You could make 5 infestors 50/50 x5 no supply, right? Now it costs 100/200/2? x5, and would probably be on an overlords (most hp zerg unit non massive that is really accessible - it being on a brood lord is laughable given its speed). The only zerg mobile detection is alluvasudden very vulnerable and in limited supply. This will be reworked before release of course no point crying over it now.
On October 24 2011 11:59 NATO wrote: Um. Viper only requires lair tech, and it can cast the detection spell upon spawn. So the timing is the same as overseer if you go that route...
If that's the only reason to resurrect this thread, can a mod please close this?
Yet it is 200 gas, which isn't always available when you have just spent gas upgrading to lair.
Why should the thread be closed when there has been some good new information revealed because of it and there are HOTS threads all over the board.
Imagine casting it on a bunch of lings and burrowing them all over the map... Say goodbye to DTs walking around. Might force more warp prism play though...
On October 24 2011 11:52 Ktk wrote: You can burrow a detector zergling, or even better if you're there in tech, a roach or infestor. Honestly? Deal with it. You guys talk as if Spores don't exist. DTs aren't the problem here...
The problem is ghosts; sniping a unit with a giant eye on it is going to be no problem. You could make 5 infestors 50/50 x5 no supply, right? Now it costs 100/200/2? x5, and would probably be on an overlords (most hp zerg unit non massive that is really accessible - it being on a brood lord is laughable given its speed). The only zerg mobile detection is alluvasudden very vulnerable and in limited supply. This will be reworked before release of course no point crying over it now.
I would imagine zerg players will spam the spell on like half a dozen units if cloaked units like ghosts were a threat. Imagine seeing the eye on two ultralisks and four more over a swarm of zerglings. With the way units clump in sc2 and the movement speed of the lings, I think it will be quite hard to pick out which four individual lings are the ones with detection. And with that, the kill priority on the detector ultras will lower. This is all speculation of course, and as you said there's no need to get too worked up over it.
On October 24 2011 12:03 Tishe wrote: Imagine casting it on a bunch of lings and burrowing them all over the map... Say goodbye to DTs walking around. Might force more warp prism play though...
You need a Viper for every Zergling, and Vipers cost 200 gas each. That's some costly detection to spread all over the map.
On October 24 2011 12:03 Tishe wrote: Imagine casting it on a bunch of lings and burrowing them all over the map... Say goodbye to DTs walking around. Might force more warp prism play though...
You need a Viper for every Zergling, and Vipers cost 200 gas each. That's some costly detection to spread all over the map.
Not according to two guys who played HOTS at Blizzcon.
They have both said it is a repeat spell but there is conflicting information elsewhere.
On October 24 2011 12:03 Tishe wrote: Imagine casting it on a bunch of lings and burrowing them all over the map... Say goodbye to DTs walking around. Might force more warp prism play though...
You need a Viper for every Zergling, and Vipers cost 200 gas each. That's some costly detection to spread all over the map.
Not according to two guys who played HOTS at Blizzcon.
They have both said it is a repeat spell but there is conflicting information elsewhere.
you can repeat the spell, but it will remove the effect on the othe dude
I really don't like the removal of the overseer. Contaminate and changeling where useful (however limited) spells on a cheap detector that most importantly makes it easy to detect things. I don't like the idea of static detection and micro spell based detection being the only options.
Terran has scan, missile turret, raven, emp.
Protoss has, observer, canon. (could use more, especially with the problems of robo dependency, but that is not for this thread)
if ocular parasite is a 1 time only spell, it's USELESS because it tells your opponent which unit has ocular parasite. If it's infinite use, then it's a bit better then since you would be casting it on multiple units.
with the overseer gone, im just curious but are zerg now back to using only overlords for scouting mid-late game? its not like someone will be willing to scout with their viper so where does that leave zergs ability to scout an opponents base in heart of the swarm? pleas let me know i play protoss but am still curious.
On October 24 2011 13:20 Steel wrote: IMO to compensate for overseer, make overlord speed have detection too. All the overlords had detection in BW, and that was fine.
I think making all overlords have detection would mess up a lot of late game tactics that protoss depend on to try and get ahead.
On October 24 2011 13:20 Steel wrote: IMO to compensate for overseer, make overlord speed have detection too. All the overlords had detection in BW, and that was fine.
I think making all overlords have detection would mess up a lot of late game tactics that protoss depend on to try and get ahead.
Why would they use the same tactics if all overlords had detection. They'd use something else that would work even when overlords have detection. I think overlords just having detection is fine. There's really no reason why they shouldn't have detection, imo.
On October 24 2011 08:30 Saraf wrote: My biggest concern with the removal of the overseer (not so much the viper but that it replaces the overseer) is that our mobile detection will now cost 200 gas instead of 50 (formerly 100) and that our scouting ability is reduced accordingly (forcing us back into 100/100 for overlord speed to get a reasonable scout or pay 200 gas for the viper).
Yeah I was going to say the same thing
Overseer was just 50 gas, and you could get it like 17 seconds after lair. Vipers are freaking 200 gas, and probably take like 50+ seconds to build after lair.
I don't see it working out sufficiently to deal with fast DTs or cloaked Banshees or burrowed roaches.
Aside from detection, overseers were used for zerg to scout early on. Now zerg needs to wait about an extra minute before they are able to scout as well. Not only that, but due to the loss of changeling, the scouting of a speed overlord still isn't as good as a [unupgraded] overseer.
Zerg used to be able to get reasonable-timed scouting as well as detection for just 50/50, or 100/100, but now they need 200/300/400 gas to both scout fast and detect early, and neither are as fast as before (loss/loss).
my suggestion to rectify this would be
On October 23 2011 17:42 Xapti wrote: How about giving the lair the changeling ability, and making changelings detectors? That way changelings can be used as early game detection, but not really viable late-game, which is where the viper comes in.
It won't do much, but it's better than nothing. Queens could get the ability instead of lairs too, if that makes it any better.
Why would they use the same tactics if all overlords had detection. They'd use something else that would work even when overlords have detection. I think overlords just having detection is fine. There's really no reason why they shouldn't have detection, imo.
Because in SC2 the battle for detection is pretty important...this would take away any other races chance of catching a zerg with their pants down.
I was thinking the samething when i heard the overseer was deleted. "where is the mobile detection going to come from?".
I guess getting a Viper is the new mobile detection. But it seems like a hell of an investment for mobile detection. This as a clear flaw, how is Zerg going to take a quick 3rd? Cloaked banshees and quick Dark Templar will ensure those hatcheries dont get built.
Let's be honest zerg, you always have an excess of gas. You get Dark Swarm back and then complain about losing overseers... all you need is lair tech for viper and as far as gas it just means we might see zerg getting second gas a little earlier then they have been.
On October 24 2011 13:47 [uci] Fizik wrote: Let's be honest zerg, you always have an excess of gas. You get Dark Swarm back and then complain about losing overseers... all you need is lair tech for viper and as far as gas it just means we might see zerg getting second gas a little earlier then they have been.
Wait what? Zerg units and tech are very expensive in gas due to the zerg getting easy expansions. Indeed, Zerg is the only race you will see in late game, taking expansions just for gas.
I don't know about this new detection spell, but paying 200 gas for a mobile detection seems pretty ankward for me, how can you be a reactive race if you need 1 min just to field detecction after lair. Let's see what happens.
On October 24 2011 13:20 Steel wrote: IMO to compensate for overseer, make overlord speed have detection too. All the overlords had detection in BW, and that was fine.
IMO it needs to go back to this. Overlord detection was one of the perks of playing zerg.
Why would they use the same tactics if all overlords had detection. They'd use something else that would work even when overlords have detection. I think overlords just having detection is fine. There's really no reason why they shouldn't have detection, imo.
Because in SC2 the battle for detection is pretty important...this would take away any other races chance of catching a zerg with their pants down.
This was no different in scbw, for zerg it was about having your overlords in the right place or keeping them alive.
On October 24 2011 13:47 [uci] Fizik wrote: Let's be honest zerg, you always have an excess of gas. You get Dark Swarm back and then complain about losing overseers... all you need is lair tech for viper and as far as gas it just means we might see zerg getting second gas a little earlier then they have been.
Wut? Zergs don't have excess of gas, what are you talking about?
On topic, why does the viper have to be 200 in gas? I'm sure blizzard can figure out to make them cheaper in gas for easier early detection and compensate in making upgrades for them more gas heavy or something.
I may be completely insane, but what about a 25/50 energy spell for the Queen that allows for 90 seconds of detection once you reach Lair tech? That would solve this stuff; make an extra creepqueen, save some energy upon lair, and your safe too?
I don't understand where people get the idea that zerg have excess of gas. lings are cool and all, but they will only get you so far (until a pack of few BFHs burns 'em down), and then you have to spend lots and lots of gas on units such as mutas, infestors, hydras.. marines on the other hand are a much better mineral dump and are good in big numbers against almost any unit. same goes with zealots, rushing tanks with huge damage output. good dump. Now when you get 200 lings that just run in circles around anything, they don't do that much And when you get a bunch of mutas, you need LOTS of them to make them even worthwhile, and that costs a lot of gas. So you save all your gas for mutas and try to survive with lings/queens as long as possible. I think the fact someone mentioned - that zerg has to expand (sometimes solely for gas) while other races happily camp on 1-2 bases says enough.
On October 24 2011 13:20 Steel wrote: IMO to compensate for overseer, make overlord speed have detection too. All the overlords had detection in BW, and that was fine.
That was fine in BW but would nullify cloaked Banshee harass in SC2.
I will never understand why they completely removed ANY useful detection for Zerg. I still believe than overlords should be zergs main source of detection, be it without an upgrade needed, with an expensive T1(!) upgrade, or with a cheaper T2 upgrade. Or even just make it 25 gas per overlord to upgrade them with detection...
I vipers will make the zerg detection and scout problem even worse than it was with overseers.
Aside from detection, scouting will be even more of a problem for zerg than it was before and will now require even more guessing games.
In addition, detecting overlords always was one of the defining aspects of zerg, and blizzard just killed it.
@cloaked banshee problem: then maybe just build a viking?
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
I don't know if u REALLY played that unit or just talking shit. can someone confirm this? if you're right, then I'm sorry.
I kind of feel that u didn't actually test it and just talk aggressively for no reason.
Great. I'm sure there's lots of wrong information out there. I don't know if the playable HOTS wasn't completely 'correct', or if there are planned changes yet to be implemented, but I'm telling you what I played. I even double checked on sunday.
The viper can cast ocular parasite as many times as it has energy. I played the game quite a few times, and I specifically checked that a single viper could cast it multiple times. Maybe what is being confused is that you can only do it once to another unit, as once it has the eye you can't cast the spell on it again, but practically that doesn't mean anything.
Its great you know how to read, but I actually played hots at blizzcon.
The Viper spawns with energy energy to cast Ocular Eye, but not enough for Blinding Cloud or Abduct. Abduct costs a lot of energy, I believe 100. Blinding Cloud I believe was 75, and Eye at 50 since you only had enough energy to cast it once when viper spawned. There is nowhere to research anything for vipers since it already comes with the ability to do all it's spells and there's no additional things for it (extra energy when spawned, etc).
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
I don't know if u REALLY played that unit or just talking shit. can someone confirm this? if you're right, then I'm sorry.
I kind of feel that u didn't actually test it and just talk aggressively for no reason.
Great. I'm sure there's lots of wrong information out there. I don't know if the playable HOTS wasn't completely 'correct', or if there are planned changes yet to be implemented, but I'm telling you what I played. I even double checked on sunday.
The viper can cast ocular parasite as many times as it has energy. I played the game quite a few times, and I specifically checked that a single viper could cast it multiple times. Maybe what is being confused is that you can only do it once to another unit, as once it has the eye you can't cast the spell on it again, but practically that doesn't mean anything.
Its great you know how to read, but I actually played hots at blizzcon.
The Viper spawns with energy energy to cast Ocular Eye, but not enough for Blinding Cloud or Abduct. Abduct costs a lot of energy, I believe 100. Blinding Cloud I believe was 75, and Eye at 50 since you only had enough energy to cast it once when viper spawned. There is nowhere to research anything for vipers since it already comes with the ability to do all it's spells and there's no additional things for it (extra energy when spawned, etc).
Does the detection stays on first unit if you cast it on a second? If I understand you correctly that is the case (the both have detection)?
^ Yes. The unit has some overseer eyeball on top of them.
I'm not sure if the enemy sees which unit has detection (to maybe snipe them out), or if what was written on a third party website about HOTS is what will actually happen instead of what I played. It's possible blizz may be planning to make it so eye can only be casted once, and that wasn't implemented yet, but as of the playable version at blizzcon, you could cast it on as many units as you want with the same viper.
On October 24 2011 13:47 [uci] Fizik wrote: Let's be honest zerg, you always have an excess of gas. You get Dark Swarm back and then complain about losing overseers... all you need is lair tech for viper and as far as gas it just means we might see zerg getting second gas a little earlier then they have been.
Its disruption web, not dark swarm. Learn BW please.
The reason I prefer overseers, is that, zerg units tend to die very quickly. Even if new detection is at same overseer time in game (as in, right after lair), if I need detection now, all of a sudden I have to make sure I keep whatever unit I made alive. Seeing as how zerg units are more expendable, I kind of liked how at least overseers had a little more health and can fly. Being harder to target is great, but when the unit has very little health (which is pretty much everything except ultras), it doesnt help lol.
So now, I can hit lair and just morph an overlord to overseer for 50/50 and have mobile detection in 17 secs.
Then, i will hit lair, morph a Viper, which is 200 gas (maybe 100 or 50 mine dunno) and THEN use the energy on it into another bug to give it detection, which can be sniped easily, so instead of just morphing another overseer (or just make two in the first place in heavy contested areas) just die to cloacked atrittion.
Nice move Blizzard.
What I can't understand is how I'm supposed to play a reactive race with nearly zero early game scouting, with that mobile detection timing.
^ For what it's worth, when I played, it 'felt' that the Viper spawned very quickly. Maybe someone out there knows the official number, but it felt around 30 seconds. I think detection is fine for Zerg, although now we can't morph 2 overseers at once, so it may be a lot trickier to deal with invisible units. 200 gas for detection is kind of a lot when it comes to timing, but then you essentially can make anything a detector for the rest of the game.
The reason I prefer overseers, is that, zerg units tend to die very quickly. Even if new detection is at same overseer time in game (as in, right after lair), if I need detection now, all of a sudden I have to make sure I keep whatever unit I made alive. Seeing as how zerg units are more expendable, I kind of liked how at least overseers had a little more health and can fly. Being harder to target is great, but when the unit has very little health (which is pretty much everything except ultras), it doesnt help lol.
You can just make an overlord a detector.
I think the problem is that:
1. A viper is 200 gas, and has enough energy for only 1 eye when it pops out. We've all been there where a banshee/dt is both in the nat and main - I guess hopefully you spent 400 on gas.
2. Scouting with no overseer. Now, Zerg NEEDS overlord speed asap. Which is kind of expensive. They lower the cost of overseer to 50 gas, then remove it so essentially we have to spend 100 gas again. The viper does nothing for scouting (unless your okay flying an extremely slow 200 gas unit from home to their base), so kind of confusing.
On October 24 2011 13:20 Steel wrote: IMO to compensate for overseer, make overlord speed have detection too. All the overlords had detection in BW, and that was fine.
That was fine in BW but would nullify cloaked Banshee harass in SC2.
People still used cloaked wraiths vs zerg in bw and they had less dps vs ground than banshees not to mention zerg had tier 1 hydras so your argument doesnt make sense.
Blizzard fucked up plain and simple in both changing OL detection and hydra tech.
kinda of a stupid change would not have been as bad if it was in addition to as it would broaden the options with this change it makes it worse for zerg as the other abbilities that the viper has are pretty good (personally they are needed as they are) so if there is any change to the viper in terms of cost or buildtime then it will change the ability of zerg to get detection.
^they said they were well aware of the issue of having the viper as detection. they said it means they cant make the fviper expensive, which may mean nerfing other spells, but thats bland, etc.
I wouldnt mind to see some redundancy and have both viper and overseer as an option. Cant really understand blizzard's notion that overseer is not cool - I consider it one of the cleaverly thought zerg units. Both changelings and contaminate are spells that have their application most of the games and it would be unfortunate to loose them. If the issue is only detection - that both viper and overseer are going to have it - I would be quite happy to see overseer's detection replaced by something else and keep him in the game.
I'm pretty sure the HotS Zerg scouting/detection issue will pop up almost immediately in Beta. In fact, I simply cannot believe this issue isn't in the process of being addressed right now, since it's so obvious and glaring.
Let's have some faith in Blizzard. At least until we are actually sure they majorly screwed up on this.
Maybe they want us to use overlord speed. Before the overseer was buffed, most people used overlord speed anyways. But I'm not sure, 100 gas was kind of expensive, and speed overlord wasn't useful when you need to know 'right now' what is going on in the opponent's base.
The 200 gas cost of the viper is kind of high. I get that you can cast OP many times from a viper, but as it spawns you can only cast it once (because, you know, you only have energy to do it once). Maybe lower the energy cost/raise starting energy so you can cast OP twice upon viper spawn.
this hovering eye is the detector, I also think it can't be casted on themselves
edit: @swiftspear:
zerg will still not really force detection. burrow baneling is hive tech and the swarm lord doesnt really force detection immediately.
imo it will be even easier to snipe "the overseer" now. it will be an overlord or an attacking unit with a huge hovering eye on it. I still can't think of any example where the viper detection should be any better than the overseer. maybe u guys can help me.
Burrow roach already forces detection and they can come out around the same time as DT. Infestors too. Late game I think you'll have to either have detection or be screwed, baneling bombs that can move are terrifying for any opponent.
The only case where I would be ok with overseer removal would have been the overlord detection from the start. Now with what units are we going to scoot at T2 ? a Viper ? The decisions that Blizzard is making for zergs really seem so un-zergy to me... End of the design whine.
On October 22 2011 23:11 ToguRo wrote: Viper should be OPTIONAL detection .....
no reason not to keep the overseer too
it's funny how everyone was so pro- "remove overseer" because it was boring and now people realise it is actually a really useful scouting unit (Especially after the cut in cost)
I always use the overseer He will be missed. I use them to scout very often and I keep one at every expansion for lategame DTs, because of too many times where the toss ran in with multiple DTs and just killed my spore(s).
Add spine crawlers with spores late game.
No shit I obviously do that. Two spines and two spores can easily be taken out by a couple DTs.
Did you think I just put a spore down and tried to kill the DTs with my drones or something?
Add more spines then?
I'm not here to discuss my gameplay as I already have a good way to deal with DTs. I was just saying the overseer isn't useless. It's also not the end of the world that it will be gone either because I can just cast the detector spell on an overlord and use it for the same purpose.
Maybe you can build two Vipers and cast Ocular Parasite in each other? Voilá!! Overseer 2.0
This is precisely what I envision myself doing for my mobile detection, and on my queens for my in-base detection.
this hovering eye is the detector, I also think it can't be casted on themselves
edit: @swiftspear:
zerg will still not really force detection. burrow baneling is hive tech and the swarm lord doesnt really force detection immediately.
imo it will be even easier to snipe "the overseer" now. it will be an overlord or an attacking unit with a huge hovering eye on it. I still can't think of any example where the viper detection should be any better than the overseer. maybe u guys can help me.
Burrow roach already forces detection and they can come out around the same time as DT. Infestors too. Late game I think you'll have to either have detection or be screwed, baneling bombs that can move are terrifying for any opponent.
Did u really just compare burrow roach to dark templar? Gtfo
If u have an army and no detection vs burrow roachs? np, vs just 1 dark templar? Yea gl with that.
U don't really need detection vs anything zerg has, atleast not in the same way u do vs dt or banshee, with those two your getting punished every second that goes by without detection, with burrow roach or infested terran you just need to know the opponent has the tech and then you can just keep your army in your base to fight it until you get detection np.
Also, the detection parasite spell is available immediately, and it's very low energy cost, and the parasite lasts forever. You just put it on a couple units, I really dont think the whole 'babysit a random roach" is an issue. You just put detection on everything lol, its not a problem.
man you post like u read it all, but fail to read that the detection spell is a one use only spell.
so unless you invest like 1000 gas, you'll have to babysit the roach
man u post like u know something because you read it all, but you aware that I said in my post I actually PLAYED the new stuff at blizzcon right? And then there was the whole panel that talked about it for hours...
You are wrong, and I was right. The detection spell can be used as much as you want. You can only cast it once on the unit of choice, but obviously that is because it lasts forever.
It costs 25 energy. If you have 200 energy on the viper, you can put it on 8 units. So you don't have to babysit anything, you just cast it on multiple units.
I don't know if u REALLY played that unit or just talking shit. can someone confirm this? if you're right, then I'm sorry.
I kind of feel that u didn't actually test it and just talk aggressively for no reason.
Great. I'm sure there's lots of wrong information out there. I don't know if the playable HOTS wasn't completely 'correct', or if there are planned changes yet to be implemented, but I'm telling you what I played. I even double checked on sunday.
The viper can cast ocular parasite as many times as it has energy. I played the game quite a few times, and I specifically checked that a single viper could cast it multiple times. Maybe what is being confused is that you can only do it once to another unit, as once it has the eye you can't cast the spell on it again, but practically that doesn't mean anything.
Its great you know how to read, but I actually played hots at blizzcon.
The Viper spawns with energy energy to cast Ocular Eye, but not enough for Blinding Cloud or Abduct. Abduct costs a lot of energy, I believe 100. Blinding Cloud I believe was 75, and Eye at 50 since you only had enough energy to cast it once when viper spawned. There is nowhere to research anything for vipers since it already comes with the ability to do all it's spells and there's no additional things for it (extra energy when spawned, etc).
Also, the Viper is NOT a detector.
I can confirm what this man has said.
Guys, what you have read on the new hots units can be wrong. At Blizzcon we were testing a build that had been updated since all of the new unit info was written down.
1) Ocular Eye is energy based and can be cast as many times as you feel like it. I remember turning more than half my army into detectors with only 2-4 vipers.
2) Vipers are not detectors, however, you can use one viper to make another a detector.
I know that sometimes the devs can make mistakes. However, as evidenced by all the pitch fork waving going around on every sc2 related forum, I'm pretty confident that they already spotted and fixed this problem by the time that we got to play the game at blizzcon.
OP is flat out wrong, the viper is available at lair without another building, making it the fastest mobile detection to produce.
Uh, that's actually slower (than any other race), and SIGNIFICANTLY slower than what it is now.
I suspect Viper will have a morph time of 40-50 seconds, while the overseer is 17 seconds; and the viper will cost an additional 150 gas (more than the overseer).
Think of it this way:
Right now, DT rushes are viable strats. Not to common, but they can easily give you a bunch of games on ladder, especially in the lower leagues (bronze-plat, and even diamond).
With vipers, it will take 150 gas longer (meaning you better cut even more drones and keep mining gas) and ~25 more seconds to get that precious detection, which will also not be available in two places (like said before, with a banshee or a DT at each base), which will cost you extra (a lot).
On October 31 2011 04:28 Sveet wrote: OP is flat out wrong, the viper is available at lair without another building, making it the fastest mobile detection to produce.
Also, i dont think zerg really has detection issues.
i guess it doesn't hurt, but there's almost no reason to discuss something like this. the game is going to change SO much that it probably won't be an issue. nothing is final and i'm sure something like this would be addressed before release.
the viper is not a detector - the viper is actually usefull because of his skills. I dont think of the viper as something to build because i need detection vs banshees or dts but rather because its a good spellcaster that can detect if needed.
On October 31 2011 04:28 Sveet wrote: OP is flat out wrong, the viper is available at lair without another building, making it the fastest mobile detection to produce.
Also, i dont think zerg really has detection issues.
our mobile detector costs 200 gas in hots...
You can make any unit a detector is the point though, so theoretically keeping the first one alive is 200 gas for any unit you decide to be your detection.
I prefer the usage of DT's in BW, and I support detection on overlords from the start. Why would an overlord devolve anyway? Makes no sense :D
You use air to contain Zerg detection (Phoenix), while using Dt's to contain the Zerg from taking a third. At the same time you macro up and crush him with a superior army. If you are lucky and snipe some overlords at the natural, you can take Dt's in to shut that down as well.
I personally don't like the idea, that the Zerg has lost the game and have very small chances of making a comeback, if they fail to get detection in time. Instead I prefer, an approach where DT's will contain you, but the defending player is given an opportunity to make a comeback.
On October 31 2011 03:43 justinpal wrote: 300 Gas for detection? Why do Zerg need to be nearly 2x as much a Protoss? And 5x more than a Terran to detect DTs, Banshees, etc?
300 gas for infinite super versatile detection.... really must suck to be you... XD
OP is flat out wrong, the viper is available at lair without another building, making it the fastest mobile detection to produce.
Uh, that's actually slower (than any other race), and SIGNIFICANTLY slower than what it is now.
I suspect Viper will have a morph time of 40-50 seconds, while the overseer is 17 seconds; and the viper will cost an additional 150 gas (more than the overseer).
Think of it this way:
Right now, DT rushes are viable strats. Not to common, but they can easily give you a bunch of games on ladder, especially in the lower leagues (bronze-plat, and even diamond).
With vipers, it will take 150 gas longer (meaning you better cut even more drones and keep mining gas) and ~25 more seconds to get that precious detection, which will also not be available in two places (like said before, with a banshee or a DT at each base), which will cost you extra (a lot).
Since when have has any zerg player used anything OTHER than a spore to stop 7:30 DT rushes? I for one would never get a lair that early.
If you're going to argue against a unit which comes out with lair tech (a la overseer), and has a host of new abilities (one of which is the ability to make ANY UNIT a detector as many times as desired) in addition to mobile detection and fulfills dual roles, use a different example than an early dt rush. There is NO reason why I cannot hold off a DT rush with three spores and be fine. I understand where you are coming from, though.
It's probably like, what, 50 energy for the ocular eye spell? One viper can go around and make each queen a detector, and you can easily make spores. I think there won't be that much of a gap at all. Also, even if you were to get early viper, that's only 100 more gas. Whoopty doo?
to be honest i think this will be an improvement to zerg detection, early detection is solvable with spores if needed, but viper is much better than overseer that its actually a good unit to have around, and you have the option for detection if u need one next to 2 other super cool spells, and i seriously doubt zergs will skip this unit often. I am really looking forward to integrating this cool unit in my games.
OP is flat out wrong, the viper is available at lair without another building, making it the fastest mobile detection to produce.
Uh, that's actually slower (than any other race), and SIGNIFICANTLY slower than what it is now.
I suspect Viper will have a morph time of 40-50 seconds, while the overseer is 17 seconds; and the viper will cost an additional 150 gas (more than the overseer).
Think of it this way:
Right now, DT rushes are viable strats. Not to common, but they can easily give you a bunch of games on ladder, especially in the lower leagues (bronze-plat, and even diamond).
With vipers, it will take 150 gas longer (meaning you better cut even more drones and keep mining gas) and ~25 more seconds to get that precious detection, which will also not be available in two places (like said before, with a banshee or a DT at each base), which will cost you extra (a lot).
Since when have has any zerg player used anything OTHER than a spore to stop 7:30 DT rushes? I for one would never get a lair that early.
If you're going to argue against a unit which comes out with lair tech (a la overseer), and has a host of new abilities (one of which is the ability to make ANY UNIT a detector as many times as desired) in addition to mobile detection and fulfills dual roles, use a different example than an early dt rush. There is NO reason why I cannot hold off a DT rush with three spores and be fine. I understand where you are coming from, though.
It's probably like, what, 50 energy for the ocular eye spell? One viper can go around and make each queen a detector, and you can easily make spores. I think there won't be that much of a gap at all. Also, even if you were to get early viper, that's only 100 more gas. Whoopty doo?
Pretty sure viper can only make one unit a detector..
And I DO get lair extremely early vs protoss for overseers for scouting purposes, which can then double as my detector. So let's say we're on 3 base, make 3 queens your detectors. That's only 500 more gas. Whoopty doo?
On October 25 2011 16:03 Giantt wrote: I wouldnt mind to see some redundancy and have both viper and overseer as an option. Cant really understand blizzard's notion that overseer is not cool - I consider it one of the cleaverly thought zerg units. Both changelings and contaminate are spells that have their application most of the games and it would be unfortunate to loose them. If the issue is only detection - that both viper and overseer are going to have it - I would be quite happy to see overseer's detection replaced by something else and keep him in the game.
Agreed. Now I can see "maybe" why they wanted to remove Carrier (Carrier + Tempest army might become some crazy death ball... a flying death ball!) but I don't think removing Overseer is needed.
EPT
