blizzard has already stated that they dont like the overseer and that they are already thinking about trimming it completely. That means they will be giving zerg a different kind of detection in heart of the swarm.
Analogous to the toss=cloak, zerg=burrow situation, perhaps they would replace the overseer with a detector unit that can move while burrowed in much the same way as the infestor? I have never had much trouble with the overseer, but the lore and general race specifics would support something like this.
On another note, this trades problems in PvZ sniping overseers with TvZ cloaked banshees sniping the burrowed dude, but I doubt this would happen nearly as often.
EDIT: "general race specifics" is a wonky phrase, but you know what I mean.
While I don't necessarily think Z has a lack of detection options (how many times in team games is the Zerg the one providing detection via overseers to save a teammate against DT harass), they are quite fragile and easy to target against for example mass stalkers. It's kind of the same problem infestors have; they're good yes but very very easy to click on and kill do to visibility and size.
However this may not be an issue, due to HoTS. The devs have specifically mentioned the overseer as an example of a unit that is "not cool," so we can expect to see the overseer removed or changed dramatically.
On June 07 2011 04:31 Cosmos wrote: So you guys think that spore crawler + spine crawler in base is less effective than turret + bunker (which requires food) and that overseer is less effective than scan?
I think that terran should complain more than zergs against lategame DT but i also think that protoss doesn't have a lot of lategame harass unit except the dt so it makes the game more interesting.
that depends, in late game, you have a few orbitals, unless your macro is insanely good and has no energy, you can scan. At the very least, it will able to do some emergency scanning or just lift off buildings the problem with zerg is DTs can snipe of tech buildings as well. Imagine you just traded with the death ball and he has colossus but your spire is sniped.
I like how the OP outright ignores the fact that an observer is obtained much later in the game than a Zerg.
It's slower.
and it takes up an entire robo facility to make
The overseer provides more uses than the observer, the one thing I potentially hate is that the overseer can be sniped before an observer is spotted. However, I don't see that as the biggest issue in the world.
On June 07 2011 05:21 tokicheese wrote: I don't understand whats with all the QQ tbh. An overseer costs a hell of a lot less than a shrine+DT and if you keep getting overseers sniped it's your own fault. Stalkers don't have a attack range of 10 learn to keep them at the back of your ball. 2 spines at a expo with a spore isn't that bad to shut down harass completely considering the cost per DT. Overseers are easy as hell to get and there is no excuse not to get them after lair tech. In comparison ravens require quadruple the gas and need to be from a tech lab starport and take a lot longer to get in a rush than overseers. Protoss need to halt Colossi production for observers and that is huge. Don't blame your race for your inability to prepare for inevitable dt harass and your inability to organize you unit's properly.
Terran can also have PF + turret to shut down DT. Not to mention tons of scans late game.
EDIT
I think we can agree on this tho. Terran has problem in early games against DT's. Zerg has problem in late games against DT's. So many times you see a Zerg lose simply because a few DT's go unnoticed and wipe out critical tech and drones. A Zerg losing drones is more critical then a Terran losing SCV's because of Mules as well.
i have a feeling that overlords will get detection back in heart of the swarm because they said they may get rid of units such as the overseer so that would be cool
On June 07 2011 05:27 Torte de Lini wrote: I like how the OP outright ignores the fact that an observer is obtained much later in the game than a Zerg.
It's slower.
and it takes up an entire robo facility to make
The overseer provides more uses than the observer, the one thing I potentially hate is that the overseer can be sniped before an observer is spotted. However, I don't see that as the biggest issue in the world.
I didn't ignore any of those facts. Either you didn't read the OP or you didn't understand it. It's also stupid to compare the races like that, they're different after all, but the need for detection is something every race has in common to a certain extend. As it is now, P's detection is perfectly fine against anything Zerg got while it's not the same for Zerg for the reasons I've stated like 2 months ago (again, in the OP)
So you would rather use half a colossi and some mins and gas instead of spending money on an overseer? if the overseer is behind roaches... no protoss in their right mind is going to blink onto roaches to kill an overseer, so this argument is invalid. You say that Observers are only usefull vs Defensive units... No if you do not have an obs vs Burrow roaches with tunneling claws.... have fun, also there is some infester play you can do. So make 1-3 overseers and have them behind your roach army... If he is using dts in his army you just pull them up... if you let them get sniped that is your issue and you can have another overseer in any location in 12 seconds via an overloard. I don't see how this makes them bad. You say he could blink and kill them... But that is only if you Put your overseers on the same hotkey, don't watch them and let them a move into stalkers.
Sure maybe they coast a little bit of money but they can be morphed anywhere... where can you make observers? One place, not to mention opportunity coast and supply which is not a factor for the overseer. Obviously some races have better detection but they lack in other areas. I just don't see how you can say that zerg detection needs a major buff when they in some ways are better..... SOME ways.
On June 07 2011 05:21 tokicheese wrote: I don't understand whats with all the QQ tbh. An overseer costs a hell of a lot less than a shrine+DT and if you keep getting overseers sniped it's your own fault. Stalkers don't have a attack range of 10 learn to keep them at the back of your ball. 2 spines at a expo with a spore isn't that bad to shut down harass completely considering the cost per DT. Overseers are easy as hell to get and there is no excuse not to get them after lair tech. In comparison ravens require quadruple the gas and need to be from a tech lab starport and take a lot longer to get in a rush than overseers. Protoss need to halt Colossi production for observers and that is huge. Don't blame your race for your inability to prepare for inevitable dt harass and your inability to organize you unit's properly.
Terran can also have PF + turret to shut down DT. Not to mention tons of scans late game.
EDIT
I think we can agree on this tho. Terran has problem in early games against DT's. Zerg has problem in late games against DT's. So many times you see a Zerg lose simply because a few DT's go unnoticed and wipe out critical tech and drones. A Zerg losing drones is more critical then a Terran losing SCV's because of Mules as well.
Terran has a problem early game for the same reason the zergs do, their build is not safe or they do not scout it. Generally speaking pro terrans save like 1-2 scans or a turret at around 7:30-8:00 specifically so they do not die to dts. If you straight out lose early game it is your own fault.. and to be honest i think DT's are the biggest issue in pvp early game because if you want to play really safe there is only one way to go because we don't have things like spores, lair tech for overseers or scans. Nope you have to go robo, which really hinders the match up in some ways.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesnt even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
On April 26 2011 21:21 Zorkmid wrote: I don't really see any problem with Zerg's detection. vT you really only need one in the early game (for cloaked banshees). vP you don't really need detection until late game at which point 150/300 should cover you for the rest of the game.
Even though I think it's stupid to compare the two different games, let's do it......I played BW and DTs in that game were more effective there because zerg didn't have the ability to mass drones, so we couldn't afford spores and sunkens that easily. I seldom saw wraiths, but since they can shoot air and we had no queens, I can see why OLs had detection in that game.
The point is that you can send DTs all over the map for harass, in which case you would need 4-5 overseers or spend a LOT of money (and use up drones) to make spore + spine, which most of the time doesn't even block the DT harass if there are enough. 2-3 overseers are also very easy to snipe: overseers are slow, and very easy to pick off with blink micro. Sacrifice a few stalkers to make DTs invincible vs the zerg army? Hell yes. With the clusterfuck that SCII battles are, it's VERY HARD to fungal all of the DTs.
No, you simply make 2 spores and 2 spines at each base which in the end is actually better for you since it raises how many units you can produce, there is no fundamental flaw with this... This happens in every protoss match up even pvp... You have to build cannons at every base.... So don't suggest that this is only a "zerg problem". Also... i would love to see a protoss blink and kill the overseer that isn't positioned horribly, it may be a problem for people that put them on the same hotkey and attack move across the map.... but no if you control your overseer correctly you are fine.....
this is a really bad thread. overseers can see really far and dts are a melee unit, its simple enough to put them in a spot that can see the dt and in which they won't die. you should also be making multiple overseers.
On April 26 2011 21:06 L3g3nd_ wrote: kinda weird how from BW to SC2 they nerfed ovies so much, decreased speed AND removed detection :S.
I think that yeah on late game on like 6 base, DT can fuck up a zerg really bad.
Not sure if it needs patching, just its harder to defend a DT harras than it is to execute a DT rush
On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote: Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
phoenixes just aren't as good as the corsairs as AA unit when massed ( straight up fight after 10+, but the other has potential to never get hit by a mutalisk? ) and could temporarily deny an area with disruption web but the zerg had detectors wherever the overlords were though
they removed the corsairs/valks/wraiths anyways for this
On April 26 2011 21:04 Scorch wrote: Zerg detection is very hard to come by compared to Broodwar. Back then, every overlord had detection, and still corsair/DT was a legitimate strategy against zerg. I don't know why phoenix/DT isn't used nowadays.
As a zerg player, Stargate DT play play off a forge fe seems very weak to roach timings and burrow roach timings. While you have detection off the cannons at the choke, reasonable roach control can bust down the wall. DTs will have miss their hatchery timing with a FFE, as the lair timing will be in time to not worry about losing map control. The pheonix might work as a way to deny the scouting of the DT tech, however once ovie speed is reseached the DT tech will be found and a roach hydra push against gateway DT/Archon/pheonix will probably be a walkover for roach hydra as the sentry count will be lower due to investing gas into fast Stargate + DT tech and units.
Overseers are a crap unit and even blizzard admits it, so Im pretty sure that it will be replaced in HotS. Btw I never got why Protoss observers got the costbuff out of the blue (50/100 to 25/75) and overseers didn't. (especially considering, that blizzard knows that overseers are only used as "glorfied scouts" - their words, not mine)
Yeah dt harass is annoying, because in an even game, you should never throw down preemptive spore crawlers, just because their might be dts at some point, but if you don't you lose a lot to them. and in the midgame there is simply no possibility to scout for a dark shrine, given that you simply cannot find a dark shrine, with one or two overlord/overseer sacrifices as it can be anywhere and you there is no way of seeing it compositionwise. Yet I don't think that this is really a big issue, more a gamedesign flaw, that zergs have to pay for a unit with useless abilities. (waiting for people to tell me that contamination is sooooo great and bullshit like that...)
Would Zergs trade overlord detection for stronger archons and DTs from templar archives?
Yeah dt harass is annoying, because in an even game, you should never throw down preemptive spore crawlers, just because their might be dts at some point, but if you don't you lose a lot to them.
Uh, that's why you should preemptively make them. Like Protoss preemptively makes observers against Terran so they don't die to cloak banshees. Or you can not and just pray, your choice.
EPT
