EPTCatZ Discusses Home-Grown NA SC2 Scene - Page 5
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Brad
2754 Posts
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
Team leagues are incredibly exciting. I think the western world should try to do this by having established players support or be a part of college/state/regional teams. In the US and EU there could even be venues for players to attend live matches, with al lthe excitement that involves. I think this could be the real future of SC2. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:34 SKC wrote: Do you honestly believe people wouldn't delegitimize the tounament for not having koreans? Even more people would say the guy just won because the good players didn't play. People will talk shit, you can't stop that, but you have to do what's best to the tournament. If westerns keep on beating the koreans, a lot of them will stop complaining. Why would not having koreans delegitimize a tournament? If no koreans were participating you judge it based on who is participating, not who could have been participating, people don't judge GSL based on if Dimaga or KiWiKaKi or Naniwa would have been participating, they judge it on who played. Why do we have to compare ourselves to koreans 100% of the time? This isn't BW. I feel like having a foreigner league wouldn't be a bad thing and would be equally popular, honestly if those 10 koreans weren't there and there were 10 more top NA and/or EU players in NASL I guarantee the number of people who would have not watched at all would be very few. The main problem with having koreans play under these conditions is it's going to cause a lot of "woulda, coulda, shoulda." | ||
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chonkyfire
United States451 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:30 vict1019 wrote: Agree with catz. Just like soccer in the USA, its all about having homegrown players compete in the MLS. If the MLS just brings in foreign players to play in the league and take up all the available spots then our home grown players will not have a chance and will never improve. The MLS is kind of a bad example. The United States is more interested in football/basketball/baseball and always will be. edit: to expand on that, the super athletes in america are playing other sports that aren't soccer. I feel like the arguments could be put aside if the NASL was only a LAN event. If that was the case, then I don't see why Koreans shouldn't be allowed to compete if it means a lifestyle change for them. At the end of the day though this is only season 1. As time goes on it will all fix itself. I personally think the NASL invited mostly on who is going to get them the most ratings for the first season. Moon vs Grubby? It's pretty obvious. Hopefully the NASL won't flop. I'm pretty optimistic about it though. I think Starcraft 2 is going to have a good future. | ||
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ihavetofartosis
1277 Posts
On April 10 2011 08:21 fadestep wrote: I always wonder why gamers have such a fascination with LAN. Sure its cool, but I don't see it as a superior venue. One of the major advantages of eSports is the fact that everybody involved can do it from their own home. I know the experience of meeting others and that type of community building is superior at LAN, but from an actual gameplay/spectator perspective - there isn't really any reason why the top venue shouldn't be online. Get real, this is reality. Do you realize how many people would download a maphack to win 100,000 dollars??? A lot, that's the answer. Having the first half of the tourney online-only is already risky enough. LAN is an absolute must for any serious competition. Also, LANs create an amazing competitive atmosphere for both the players and the spectators. GSL would not be the same spectator-wise if the 2 weren't sitting across from eachother in their booths, with shots of their faces and their teams/coach. | ||
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grungust
United States325 Posts
Now we jump up to sc2 where the money is already in place and the sponsors are as well. Not only sponsors, but streaming/coaching is a whole new way for players to make income and SHOULD allow them to be in houses and play the same amount as the koreans. I really don't see a reason why the foreigners can't be on the same level as koreans besides 1 reason. That reason is lack of self discipline. Koreans, and asian cultures in general are known for their extreme amount of self discipline and obedience. I think this is often what foreigners lack because our cultures do not promote this as much. I think that is the true ROOT(lol) of the problem and CatZ is just basically making an excuse for it. I love CatZ and root but I really have to disagree with him on this one, I for one, as a spectator want to see the BEST players playing in big money tournaments because in sc2 everyone is on a equal playing field when it comes to practice and preparation(if they choose to be). | ||
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Aegeis
United States1619 Posts
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Swarmed
59 Posts
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dtz
5834 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:44 chonkyfire wrote: The MLS is kind of a bad example. The United States is more interested in football/basketball/baseball and always will be. I feel like the arguments could be put aside if the NASL was only a LAN event. If that was the case, then I don't see why Koreans shouldn't be allowed to compete if it means a lifestyle change for them. At the end of the day though this is only season 1. As time goes on it will all fix itself. I personally think the NASL invited mostly on who is going to get them the most ratings for the first season. Moon vs Grubby? It's pretty obvious. Hopefully the NASL won't flop. I'm pretty optimistic about it though. I think Starcraft 2 is going to have a good future. But why are the US more interested in football/bastketball/baseball and not other sports. It is probably because they are one of the best in the world at it ( or at least have the most exciting/best league) What sport are the US interested in , in which they don't have top players or a top league in the world in that particular sport? I can't think of any at that top of my head whereas for many other countries, being good in that particular sport is not a prerequisite. Many countries love soccer and have soccer as their no1 sport although their countries are absolutely awful at it The average soccer fans in other countries can root for barcelona/real madrid/manchester united/arsenal as much as they root for their local team. The average basketball fans in other countries can root for Lakers/Spurs/Celtics as much as the local basketball teams in Australia for example. But not the average US sportsviewers. Good or bad, these patriotism is something that is intrinsic and essential in getting the casual fans to watch and support and enjoy starcraft and thus it is completely essential that the NA scene is top notch and their players are the best in the world. Otherwise, many average viewers won't bother with it. | ||
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Slago
Canada726 Posts
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Hrrrrm
United States2081 Posts
Unless of course he means Koreans just have to be on NA/EU soil and then it would still take place online but, then that'd just be silly... | ||
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UberThing
Great Britain410 Posts
Mainly, there should be a fair and equivalent entry for Koreans and non-Koreans. Having places reserved when non-Koreans have to go through an open or such seems unfair (sorry TSL). NB Have the Koreans guaranteed they will be there for the offline NASL? How so? | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:44 Hierarch wrote: Why would not having koreans delegitimize a tournament? If no koreans were participating you judge it based on who is participating, not who could have been participating, people don't judge GSL based on if Dimaga or KiWiKaKi or Naniwa would have been participating, they judge it on who played. Why do we have to compare ourselves to koreans 100% of the time? This isn't BW. I feel like having a foreigner league wouldn't be a bad thing and would be equally popular, honestly if those 10 koreans weren't there and there were 10 more top NA and/or EU players in NASL I guarantee the number of people who would have not watched at all would be very few. The main problem with having koreans play under these conditions is it's going to cause a lot of "woulda, coulda, shoulda." I didn't said it does, I said people would say that it does, in response to you saying that they will do it now, which implies they wouldn't if the koreans were participating. Keys diference. Then I said "People will talk shit, you can't stop that". My opinion? It's not about delegitimizing or whatever, it's about bringing the best show for the viewers, it's about being fair, not excluding just one nation just because they are good, it's about giving chance for the western community to prove itself against Korea. On April 10 2011 09:51 dtz wrote: But why are the US more interested in football/bastketball/baseball and not other sports. It is probably because they are one of the best in the world at it ( or at least have the most exciting/best league) What sport are the US interested in , in which they don't have top players or a top league in the world in that particular sport? I can't think of any at that top of my head whereas for many other countries, being good in that particular sport is not a prerequisite. Many countries love soccer and have soccer as their no1 sport although their countries are absolutely awful at it The average soccer fans in other countries can root for barcelona/real madrid/manchester united/arsenal as much as they root for their local team. The average basketball fans in other countries can root for Lakers/Spurs/Celtics as much as the local basketball teams in Australia for example. But not the average US sportsviewers. Good or bad, these patriotism is something that is intrinsic and essential in getting the casual fans to watch and support and enjoy starcraft and thus it is completely essential that the NA scene is top notch and their players are the best in the world. Otherwise, many average viewers won't bother with it. The thing is, what he proposes wouldn't make the US players "Top Notch", if anything they would actually fall behind, because dificult competition generates improvements. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:49 Swarmed wrote: You wouldn't even be able to field 50 US players at a high enough level that would really attract large amounts of viewers. Case closed right there imo. That's why it would be NA + EU and any korean who wanted to play abroad and make a serious commitment to play in the NASL. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:44 Hierarch wrote: Why would not having koreans delegitimize a tournament? If no koreans were participating you judge it based on who is participating, not who could have been participating, people don't judge GSL based on if Dimaga or KiWiKaKi or Naniwa would have been participating, they judge it on who played. Why do we have to compare ourselves to koreans 100% of the time? This isn't BW. I feel like having a foreigner league wouldn't be a bad thing and would be equally popular, honestly if those 10 koreans weren't there and there were 10 more top NA and/or EU players in NASL I guarantee the number of people who would have not watched at all would be very few. The main problem with having koreans play under these conditions is it's going to cause a lot of "woulda, coulda, shoulda." Because everything is always compared to a Gold Standard, in every discipline in life. In this case, the gold standard for SC2 is korea, and not just in player skill regards, but also in production quality, sponsors and money involved, and managerial and social aspects of e-sports. It becomes only logical to compare, then, with koreans. I know that if I could watch a GSL vod between SlayerS_Alicia and oGs_TOP or a NASL vod between KiWiKaKi and Slush, I will watch GSL vod every possible time, since I expect that vod to have 3 times or more the quality of NASL, not just because of the players, but because of how GSL just IS. Having koreans is beneficial for the NASL. Try some regional minor leagues sponsored by money raised by the NASL with local players, keep the NASL a larger global event, that way it makes a LOT more sense. | ||
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alexhard
Sweden317 Posts
We see TOP Korean teams that don't have any salaries because they have NO sponsors. At the same time international teams have multiple big sponsors and are being flown across the world all the time. And yet despite all these opportunities, the foreign scene has fallen (a little bit) behind. There are no serious training houses outside of Korea. Why? I don't know, but it's not lack of opportunities and tournaments. My first guess would be lack of dedication. And we see people like CatZ QQing about Koreans taking "our" money. Please. Who exactly is "us"? What possible reason could I have to identify more with you than with someone from Korea? This is the age of the internet. The internet has no borders, online identities have no skin colour. I couldn't care less about the nationality of the players, as long as they are awesome at what they do. And I certainly will not care about the "foreign" scene if its purpose is to close itself off and resign itself to being second-best. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:52 SKC wrote: I didn't said it does, I said people would say that it does, in response to you saying that they will do it now, which implies they wouldn't if the koreans were participating. Keys diference. Then I said "People will talk shit, you can't stop that". My opinion? It's not about delegitimizing or whatever, it's about bringing the best show for the viewers, it's about being fair, not excluding just one nation just because they are good, it's about giving chance for the western community to prove itself against Korea. I agree with you on this, but why are we making 100% of the effort to get koreans to integrate with the rest of the world? While korea insists on "you must be in korea to participate in our tournament" it's not feasible for the vast majority of people to do that, I feel like the foreigner community should have it's chance against korea but I don't feel this is the best conduit to achieve that goal. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8003 Posts
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:56 Hierarch wrote: I agree with you on this, but why are we making 100% of the effort to get koreans to integrate with the rest of the world? While korea insists on "you must be in korea to participate in our tournament" it's not feasible for the vast majority of people to do that, I feel like the foreigner community should have it's chance against korea but I don't feel this is the best conduit to achieve that goal. MLG insists on "you must be in X location to participate". Dreamhack does that too. That's the diference of online and offline tournaments. Everyone agrees that offline is better despite this problem, but NASL offline is unreasonable. You seriously can't punish them from doing an offline tournament. Local online tournament? No such thing in Korea, as far as I know. It's not about making an effort to integrate, it's about not making an effort to separate. | ||
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SDream
Brazil896 Posts
I know zero about tennis, let's move to our marathons instead  I know a lot of brazilians that don't like all these africans winning "our" São Silvestre Marathon, but at least they are here in Brazil, in a foreign place/culture/etc so I think it makes it interesting for everyone, if there was a 100% of chance of a brazilian winning it I wouldn't watch it :D So yeah, I can agree with Koreans on a North American League, specially because I wouldn't like to see a brazilian being stoped from trying it as well. But at least make them move there? o.o Idk if I like this aproach. | ||
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