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On April 10 2011 08:21 fadestep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:On April 10 2011 08:00 VeryAverage wrote:On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time
16 man offline final IN USA
games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)
Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).
Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.
just my 2 cents. If the NASL is successful for the first few seasons, do you think there would be any plans to expand the offline part of the tournament? Hell, if it's amazingly successful, possibly offline only? Or is that too far off to think about? I am no authority on the matter but I can tell you these guys are excited to grow the crap out of the NASL. Obviously offline is the pinnacle of SC2 gaming so yeah I could imagine that occurring just speculating though. I always wonder why gamers have such a fascination with LAN. Sure its cool, but I don't see it as a superior venue. One of the major advantages of eSports is the fact that everybody involved can do it from their own home. I know the experience of meeting others and that type of community building is superior at LAN, but from an actual gameplay/spectator perspective - there isn't really any reason why the top venue shouldn't be online.
You can watch football from your home, but it's nothing like going to a game. The same is true for watching events.
As for playing in them, going to a LAN is just a whole different level above playing from your room. I don't even know how to describe it, but there's just so much more energy and intensity in it and that's even just talking about the tiny lans I've been to.
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You have no idea how much I agree with CatZ here. I thought about this when the NASL was first announced. Although obviously I had/have no input at all on how the league would be run, it crossed my mind whether Koreans should be allowed in. It's not even about if foreigners can beat Koreans, it's really about
1) Foreigners have to travel to and live in Korea to compete in the GSL. That's a huge risk to take on their part.
2) Koreans are always established in the scene. They have their own tournaments. We shouldn't feel bad about not inviting them.
If you're a top masters player and you're sitting around one day thinking... Should I try to go pro?? You're definitely going to have an easier time making some money if you don't have to play against Koreans in online qualifiers. For the most part Koreans aren't hosting tournaments with online qualifiers against foreigners. To compete there you have to take a risk and move there. Let them do the same! If they want to move here, like foreigners have been moving to Korea then great let them play. But that risk needs to be there. Without that risk Koreans are going to keep playing in online qualifiers or online tournaments and take money away from a struggling scene in the west. If people really want e-sports to grow in the west, a good place to start is looking at the incentives to become pro. A way to boost that incentive is to offer leagues where ringers from overseas aren't going to come in and take all the money.
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It is too late. Koreans are the best, and they will skip further and further ahead, end.
Foreigners will start looking up to the Koreans and so will the foreign players. They will reimain our idols unless foreigners some how keep up.
If we are to some what keep up, we need to compete with them as much as possible.
I do not see this happening end as SC2 becomes bigger and bigger in Korea, I think the SC2 global scene will look more and more like BW. I think claiming that foreigners will keep up in the coming years is fooling ourselves.
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Tournaments that have online games make it "easy" for Korean to participate. If there was a huge prize pool on the line, I am sure any pro Korean will take up on the invitation despite the lag. However, if there tournaments were restricted to live play such as huge LAN events like MLG, then I am sure some koreans will reconsider. But if they do want to participate, they will have to come into our home turf, much like how Jinro and Idra had to go to Korea to participate for GSL.
It'll be nice to develop our own "SC2 Micheal Jordan" without having MC or a MvP overshadowing that chance. Kinda like how Boxer became famous as he became a national e-sports icon in Korea. Maybe, it'll be nice to know that the US can grow a foundation of stroong players without having to know we NEED to invite Koreans, etc.etc. Also, it'll make WCG that much more awesome, having players from their own respected countrys that are KNOWN to win tournaments within their own region competing against other such as Korean pros that have done the same. So, its basically like their "Micheal Jordan" vs their "Micheal Jordan" Maybe, im blabbering non sense just like Catz...lol.
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I also think CatZ puts it beautifully when he talks about soccer in NA. Soccer is like, the LEAST popular sport on the US. I'm just pulling this out of my ass, but I'm pretty sure people who actually LIKE soccer in the US, watch ANY european league instead of NASL. I mean really, it sucks.
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Well if you think about it GSL and NASL both have misleading names.
"Global" league held only in South Korea. "North American" league held online.
SKSL and OSL would have been more appropriate, although the latter is already taken. Battle.net Star League? BNSL
On April 10 2011 08:21 fadestep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:On April 10 2011 08:00 VeryAverage wrote:On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time
16 man offline final IN USA
games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)
Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).
Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.
just my 2 cents. If the NASL is successful for the first few seasons, do you think there would be any plans to expand the offline part of the tournament? Hell, if it's amazingly successful, possibly offline only? Or is that too far off to think about? I am no authority on the matter but I can tell you these guys are excited to grow the crap out of the NASL. Obviously offline is the pinnacle of SC2 gaming so yeah I could imagine that occurring just speculating though. I always wonder why gamers have such a fascination with LAN. Sure its cool, but I don't see it as a superior venue. One of the major advantages of eSports is the fact that everybody involved can do it from their own home. I know the experience of meeting others and that type of community building is superior at LAN, but from an actual gameplay/spectator perspective - there isn't really any reason why the top venue shouldn't be online.
Nothing to do with being "cool" it's about legitimacy.
It's all very well having an online tournament, but you can't tell someone isn't cheating. Having a local tournament ensures everyone is playing on the same level, in the same conditions, same latency, same background noise, etc.
It's the same reason the Olympic 100m sprint (for example) is a race and not runners just submitting best times from practice and the lowest wins. It's what happens on the day, in those conditions, at the specific time and place that matters.
A online win always just a be an online win, a player will always have to do it on LAN to prove they are legit and not just basement hero. Any online tournament will have some shadow hanging over it, whether it be latency, cheating or "my cat pulled out the ethernet cord" d/c's, but when two guys are next to each other playing you know what's what.
Starcraft is actually one of the only esports where online is even considered semi legit, in fps and fighting games LAN has always been and will always be king because of latency.
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I think USA is interesting in sporting perspective though. It seems that their fans only support a sport if their league/ national team is one of the best in the world for that sport. See basketball, baseball, football.
There is a huge element of patriotism in American sport. During the 2010 soccer world cup, America was suddenly very enthusiastic about the world cup and everyone was talking about it in real life/websites , etc. Once they lost though, the interest suddenly disappeared overnight. Just poof.
This is not really the case in other countries. A Nigerian/Malaysian/Thai/Australian/Dutch will follow the World Cup with great enthusiasm still even when their national team is not doing well. Sure they are more enthusiastic when their national teams are involved but not on a critical level.
That is why i think for SC2 to succeed in Korea, it is very important that NA has a premiere league and NA players are one of the best in the world so that the casual fans will be attracted to it. If the NA guys are the beating boys of EU and Asian players, the casual NA fans will not be that invested into the game just as they are not that invested into soccer.
That is why i agree with catz. It is most important that NA scene is thriving and they have top top players more so than any other continent since the element of patriotism is much bigger there.
What do you guys think about this "phenomenom/mentality"
(this is not meant to be a country bashing, just a general observation)
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Catz looks like he has been using drugs during the whole video saying anything he thinks out of his head. Using facts that are not true at all...
Don't you think the medias though about this before him? They probably hired marketing specialists to decide if they should allow koreans in or not.
Catz should stick to playing SC2, not give his opinion on things he can barely understand...
User was warned for this post
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Why is everyone stating that is is a big commitment to go to GSL, so Koreans shouldnt have an easy way to participate in western tournaments?
I don't get this. "The Koreans don't let us play online so they can't play here." ?
Why not do it better than the Koreans? Global e-sports needs online tournaments if you don't want every player to travel a lot (which also costs a lot).
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On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time
16 man offline final IN USA
games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)
Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).
Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.
just my 2 cents.
Very well said. I'm in agreement with Catz that north americans need to have the capacity to become "pro-gamers". However I don't think limiting the NASL to only NA or foreigner or w/e players is the right answer.
As Incontrol alluded to, the NASL is already fairly skewed towards foreigners(as it should be in my opinion). The 10 koreans in the league easily could have been 30-40 Koreans if they were wholly focused on taking the best of the best in the world.
I think the most important thing to remember in this situation is that this is NOT brood war anymore. The skill differential between koreans and foreigners is not like it was in brood war. Koreans are hardly getting free cash by participating in the NASL. If we really want esports to be legitimate outside of korea, we should not limit the pool of talent. We will never have a foreign bonjwa if the foreign scene isolates itself from the korean scene.
All in all, I think the NASL is doing the best job that they can do in balancing these poles: 1.) the desire to show the best games possible 2.) The desire to make it more realistic for foreigners to become "progamers".
For fear of encroaching on TL:DR territory, I am in agreement with catz that the foreign scene should do its best to help foreigners make a living playing games, but limiting online leagues to foreigners only is not the answer. Koreans bring not only a high level of skill, but high spectator interest and therefore high advertisement revenue. If you want esports to succeed, its about money being infused into the business above all else.
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You got to remember that with Koreans in it the league will be A LOT more popular.
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On April 10 2011 08:36 Tachion wrote:
Pretty much everyone who has gone to Korea to practice says it made them a better player.
Because everyone who has gone there lived in a team house (+ Korean ladder has more player on the highest level). This is not comparable to playing some Koreans in a league every other week.
On April 10 2011 08:36 Tachion wrote:
Throwing yourself in with the lions will only make you better even faster, because you HAVE to get better in order to succeed in that environment. If you completely shut the NA off from the rest of the world, it's only going to stifle their progress.
I agree that we definitely need to compare our skills with the Koreans and that if they are consistently better it's a stimulation for our players to train harder. But at the same time I feel that CatZ is right that we need our own tournaments and win money and fame 100% there so esport has an easier time getting professional in the western world (which it has not if Koreans win all our tournaments cause they are ahead of us in terms of professionalism and infrastructure).
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On April 10 2011 08:39 eoLithic wrote:
It is too late. Koreans are the best, and they will skip further and further ahead, end.
Foreigners will start looking up to the Koreans and so will the foreign players. They will reimain our idols unless foreigners some how keep up.
If we are to some what keep up, we need to compete with them as much as possible.
I do not see this happening end as SC2 becomes bigger and bigger in Korea, I think the SC2 global scene will look more and more like BW. I think claiming that foreigners will keep up in the coming years is fooling ourselves.
Even if it's totally accepted that Koreans are better I don't think it's too late. I understand what you're saying, but I do think that if there were regional tournaments in the west, more people could make a living at starcraft there (because prize money from the tournament would benefit western players only). I think that as the number of professional players in the west grew, there would be more of a reason to develop infrastructure like team houses. Once reasonably sized team houses got established with good players, I believe the west could compete with Koreans. I mean... the truth is Koreans are better because they have multiple teams with practice houses and have coaches with the experience to organize those houses properly. That step is hugely important for the west I think.
I imagine what I'm saying like this:
More money staying in the west -> more potential pros -> more need for pro houses -> better players
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The problems with the football analogy are myriad, but football simply doesn't work in the same way as sc2/esports. Lets say i move to Korea to try and get in the GSL. I play hours of ladder and finally get good enough to be facing MC et al. They trash me multiple times but of course i eventually get better and at least give them a game and maybe even make it to Code A or whatever.
Lets say, instead, i want to become a footballer - i don't even need to move abroad, great! Can i just go and ask Man Utd for a trial? Can i go have a kick-about with Jack Wilshere until i'm good enough to play for Arsenel? Of course not. I have to have been playing for amateur teams when i was 11 and get spotted by a scout.
International football is a better analogy, although Catz doesn't really put it across very well, and in fact it undermines his whole premise. The best american players are the ones that play abroad, in countries with a better domestic game - Stuart Holden, Clint Dempsey etc. The MLS or NASL nowadays is better because its players have learned from experienced European and South American veterans. I hope i don't have to paint this on the walls, but clearly letting in the best players (i.e. Koreans) is nothing but helpful for growing the talent of American players. After all, what's the merit of winning a league that doesn't have MC or MVP in it? "I'm the best player in the 2nd or 3rd best league in the world" - not so impressive-soundin'.
To put it bluntly: to be the best you've gotta beat the best.
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Koreans only have GSL, they're desperate for more tournaments.
I'm not sure where everyone, including top players like CatZ, have the false perception that there's a lot going on for them. StarCraft 2 is not popular in Korea. Startale's coach even said they are going to focus their efforts overseas. July said he was very motivated to do well in NASL because there aren't any other Korean tournaments and he wants to win before going to military service.
So, think of it from their side.
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On April 10 2011 08:42 dtz wrote:
I think USA is interesting in sporting perspective though. It seems that their fans only support a sport if their league/ national team is one of the best in the world for that sport. See basketball, baseball, football.
There is a huge element of patriotism in American sport. During the 2010 soccer world cup, America was suddenly very enthusiastic about the world cup and everyone was talking about it in real life/websites , etc. Once they lost though, the interest suddenly disappeared overnight. Just poof.
This is not really the case in other countries. A Nigerian/Malaysian/Thai/Australian/Dutch will follow the World Cup with great enthusiasm still even when their national team is not doing well. Sure they are more enthusiastic when their national teams are involved but not on a critical level.
That is why i think for SC2 to succeed in Korea, it is very important that NA has a premiere league and NA players are one of the best in the world so that the casual fans will be attracted to it. If the NA guys are the beating boys of EU and Asian players, the casual NA fans will not be that invested into the game just as they are not that invested into soccer.
That is why i agree with catz. It is most important that NA scene is thriving and they have top top players more so than any other continent since the element of patriotism is much bigger there.
What do you guys think about this "phenomenom/mentality"
(this is not meant to be a country bashing, just a general observation)
I've always been impressed with this excessively patriotic feeling everything US-related has. I'm proud of being Chilean and I love my country, but I can feel passion dor and enjoy foreign stuff just as much. I think, that going in your same line of thought, it's impossible for NA players to grow as strong as koreans if they never get to play them on equal footing.
How will US proud citizens have a powerful banner-holding hero if said person can never test his worth against a legit asian monster?. By now we all just assume that, as long as they don't play each other, korean players are just better than their US counterparts. How can we remove this image, and allow US people to grow SC in their hearts, if US players never fight koreans?
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United States13896 Posts
Right now everything is all very new, and tournaments are all vying to be as big and bad as they can be. Its a new experience for so many people and everyone wants to be the tournament with the best competitors and greatest games.
Since CatZ is going for the allusion to soccer I'll try to look at how I view the situation: Right now we don't know whats going to be like the "World Cup of SC2." In the past it was WCG for BW - it happened for 3 days a year and was the #1 international event, its yet to be seen if it'll live up to that for SC2. I look at the GSL as like the English Premier League of SC2, the best players, the most money, best performance on a world stage. I agree with CatZ in what he's saying, which seems to be that NA needs its own SC2 equivalent of like MLS if we're going to see players really improve and begin to compete on the international level with top Korean players the NA scene grow and be able to sustain itself. (I think the best can already compete, but if SC2 is going to stick around for a long time in NA like BW did in Korea then there is going to come a time where leagues are going to pop up and say "this is a NA tournament with a large prize pool, and only for NA players")
Eventually once tournaments have established themselves after multiple seasons I think you'll see the organizers that are coming in a little later start to look at it and say, "we don't have the resources to top these established tournaments as major international events, so we're going to focus on this region, and try and capture that particular group of viewers' attention." Like CatZ said, EPS is already doing this in Europe, and I don't doubt there will be a group that comes along and does that elsewhere.
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On April 10 2011 08:43 Windmonk wrote:
Catz looks like he has been using drugs during the whole video saying anything he thinks out of his head. Using facts that are not true at all...
Don't you think the medias though about this before him? They probably hired marketing specialists to decide if they should allow koreans in or not.
Catz should stick to playing SC2, not give his opinion on things he can barely understand...
1.) He is clearly sick.... just plain dumb to say otherwise.
2.) What "facts that are not true" are being stated? pretty much everything he says is an opinion.
3.) the "medias" ? How exactly would a marketing specialist, whatever that means, help in deciding on admission to a starcraft league?
4.) you should probably stick to not commenting on things you barely understand. Either chime in in a constructive manner or don't say anything at all. Accusations of drug use and insults on someone's intelligence do absolutely nothing for the discussion.
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I 100% agree with CatZ the moment you bring in someone better into the enviorment, EVERYbodys morale goes down.
Back in 2004 when I played the Pokemon TCG competively they still allowed US citizens to come to come to Canadian National Championships.
Now the comparison of player skill level of US to Canada was about equal to Koreans vs Foreigners.
Anyway, when the US players(ofcourse top players) came to the Canadian National Championships they took top 6 spots(the literally rolled everyone), taking scholarship, trips to worlds, and prizes away from Canadians.
After this trainwreck a good % of players quit, so Pokemon USA(nintendo) changed the ruling the following year that only Canadian Citizens can play in Canadian events. Its taken about 7 years, but Canadian players are now up to par with Americans and can compete at a International Level.
Now lets look at NASL.
Bring in top koreans, yeah sure people will watch it, but how long till players(you need a fan base to create a sport, but you also need dedicated players) say, well F this i cant win this with (blank) in this tournament so they stop playing and or practising.
Lets all be honest here
Foreigner against a korean, its already in the Korean favour. Nowyou put any im not saying its impossible to win, but it becomes something like 75-25 especially if its a player like MC.
Unlike if you put a foreigner vs foreigner which lets just say for argument sake(all depends on player ofcourse) 55-45.
Now the moment you put a korean in the tournament, its a uphill battle for all the other players. Now top players like IdrA, Kiwikaki might not have that big troubles, but what about your Regular Foreigner? Someone from vvv gaming or someone from a "lower" level clan, what incentive do they have to play if they have to face someone like MC, MVP, July.
Sure they have a chance, but as a old MTG/PTCG competitor, the moment your placed against someone who is a top tier level players, you know your in for one hell of a match,
that without EVEN entering the match, you know your in for a world of shit.
Now this situation is a little bit bigger. why? people life depend on it because it might be there only source of income
my 2 cents
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I have posted this a few times, but I think if MLG, NASL and a few other north american leagues joined into a circuit. Where players could earn points at all the events towards a unified yearly championship, it would be a great thing. I think it would accomplish what Catz is talking about in a more profound way. Then Koreans would have to choose if they wanted to be in GSL or move to NA and play in our circuit.
This would allow more full time pros to exist in north america and sponsorships to grow. Having one unified schedule to follow would be nice too.
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EPT
