CatZ Discusses Home-Grown NA SC2 Scene

On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time

16 man offline final IN USA

games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)

Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).

Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.

just my 2 cents.

On April 10 2011 07:50 Aurdon wrote:
Also, to fuel the foreigner scene, there has to be an opportunity to fund full-time players. The more money there is in the pool for North Americans to earn as competitors the more likely they are to be able to be full-time progamers.

If you give the non-North American money away so readily to foreigners by holding online events, then you give away the funding from North American eSports. There is less money to create more full-time progamers. Less incentive for young players to take the risk to become competitors.

On April 10 2011 08:00 VeryAverage wrote:


If the NASL is successful for the first few seasons, do you think there would be any plans to expand the offline part of the tournament? Hell, if it's amazingly successful, possibly offline only?

Or is that too far off to think about?

On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.

just my 2 cents.

On April 10 2011 08:03 00Visor wrote:
I don't understand Catz.

How many leagues/tournaments are there where Koreans have to make no commitment?
- TSL 3
- FXOpen Invitationals
- NASL to an extent (final is offline)

That`s all. Additionally we have a few offline tournaments with Koreans: IEM, Dreamhack.

The rest are tons of tourneys without Koreans. I really don't get what he`s complaining about. All the comparisons he makes are completely off.
- Actual sports can't take place online so of course you have to move there
- When competition is growing in some country lesser players compete for less money (like the soccer NASL), but you can't cut out good players if there is a big pricepool, I don't know any sport where that happens

On April 10 2011 08:07 dacthehork wrote:


GSL could have had qualifiers online too...

not sure what you're point is.

"tons of tournaments in NA" you mean I think 6 MLG events? NASL being open to koreans in the first place was probably a bad idea considering the idea of the tournament. The fact is there are NA players with the talent to beat koreans but how many actual team houses do you see with 16 players crammed into a 3 bedroom apartment with a maid doing everything and them playing SC2 all day?

The infrastructure is completely diferent and to have them compete against NA players for NA prize money doesnt make any sense if you actually want NA teams to grow.

The thing is though 70% of TL and the community basically want NASL to be GSL.

On April 10 2011 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:


I am no authority on the matter but I can tell you these guys are excited to grow the crap out of the NASL. Obviously offline is the pinnacle of SC2 gaming so yeah I could imagine that occurring just speculating though.

On April 10 2011 08:19 Ragoo wrote:
Now that I think about it, I think soccer is a very good comparison.

I can't really cheer for the big teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester, Inter etc cause they are not from Germany. I exclusively follow the German Bundesliga even tho I know we don't have the best teams here but I can just identify better with the German players, managers, fans and so on.
When I watch the CL I admire the really good teams but I don't feel emotionally involved. When German teams compete I cheer for them but it's okay if they lose to teams like Chelsea cause generally they are just better.
In the end it matters more for me who won the German championship.

I guess many feel the same and in SC2 (especially for the casual viewers) it's very important if you can relate to the players, too (e.g. the German player vs the American player).

I wish there were more national leagues like the EPS Germany so every country could have this experience and then we could have a tournament like the CL (and Euroleague) where the best of each national league compete (yes I'm aware that IEM and WCG is somewhat like a CL, but there is no national league as a qualifier).

On April 10 2011 07:53 shire wrote:
isn't IGN proleague NA only tournament? why is he bashing on NASL when there's IGN coming up with NA only tournament ?

On April 10 2011 08:31 hugman wrote:
I don't think he's wrong in wanting localized leagues and events, but I think those exist. There's MLG, there's the IGN thing and then there are tons of events all over Europe. I think it's good that the NASL has invited Koreans because I want more interaction between the two scenes. Having to play Koreans is not going to put them further ahead skill wise, it's only going to help you. Also, the Koreans seem starved for tournaments outside of the GSL and if the NASL can help SC2 get bigger in Korea as well then that's great.

On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time

16 man offline final IN USA

games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)

Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).

Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.

just my 2 cents.

On April 10 2011 08:21 fadestep wrote:


I always wonder why gamers have such a fascination with LAN. Sure its cool, but I don't see it as a superior venue. One of the major advantages of eSports is the fact that everybody involved can do it from their own home. I know the experience of meeting others and that type of community building is superior at LAN, but from an actual gameplay/spectator perspective - there isn't really any reason why the top venue shouldn't be online.

On April 10 2011 08:21 fadestep wrote:


I always wonder why gamers have such a fascination with LAN. Sure its cool, but I don't see it as a superior venue. One of the major advantages of eSports is the fact that everybody involved can do it from their own home. I know the experience of meeting others and that type of community building is superior at LAN, but from an actual gameplay/spectator perspective - there isn't really any reason why the top venue shouldn't be online.

On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time

16 man offline final IN USA

games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)

Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).

Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.

just my 2 cents.

On April 10 2011 08:36 Tachion wrote:
Pretty much everyone who has gone to Korea to practice says it made them a better player.

On April 10 2011 08:36 Tachion wrote:
Throwing yourself in with the lions will only make you better even faster, because you HAVE to get better in order to succeed in that environment. If you completely shut the NA off from the rest of the world, it's only going to stifle their progress.

On April 10 2011 08:39 eoLithic wrote:
It is too late. Koreans are the best, and they will skip further and further ahead, end.

Foreigners will start looking up to the Koreans and so will the foreign players. They will reimain our idols unless foreigners some how keep up.

If we are to some what keep up, we need to compete with them as much as possible.

I do not see this happening end as SC2 becomes bigger and bigger in Korea, I think the SC2 global scene will look more and more like BW. I think claiming that foreigners will keep up in the coming years is fooling ourselves.

On April 10 2011 08:42 dtz wrote:
I think USA is interesting in sporting perspective though. It seems that their fans only support a sport if their league/ national team is one of the best in the world for that sport. See basketball, baseball, football.

There is a huge element of patriotism in American sport. During the 2010 soccer world cup, America was suddenly very enthusiastic about the world cup and everyone was talking about it in real life/websites , etc. Once they lost though, the interest suddenly disappeared overnight. Just poof.

This is not really the case in other countries. A Nigerian/Malaysian/Thai/Australian/Dutch will follow the World Cup with great enthusiasm still even when their national team is not doing well. Sure they are more enthusiastic when their national teams are involved but not on a critical level.

That is why i think for SC2 to succeed in Korea, it is very important that NA has a premiere league and NA players are one of the best in the world so that the casual fans will be attracted to it. If the NA guys are the beating boys of EU and Asian players, the casual NA fans will not be that invested into the game just as they are not that invested into soccer.

That is why i agree with catz. It is most important that NA scene is thriving and they have top top players more so than any other continent since the element of patriotism is much bigger there.

What do you guys think about this "phenomenom/mentality"

(this is not meant to be a country bashing, just a general observation)

On April 10 2011 08:43 Windmonk wrote:
Catz looks like he has been using drugs during the whole video saying anything he thinks out of his head. Using facts that are not true at all...

Don't you think the medias though about this before him? They probably hired marketing specialists to decide if they should allow koreans in or not.

Catz should stick to playing SC2, not give his opinion on things he can barely understand...

On April 10 2011 08:52 p4NDemik wrote:
Right now everything is all very new, and tournaments are all vying to be as big and bad as they can be. Its a new experience for so many people and everyone wants to be the tournament with the best competitors and greatest games.

Since CatZ is going for the allusion to soccer I'll try to look at how I view the situation: Right now we don't know whats going to be like the "World Cup of SC2." In the past it was WCG for BW - it happened for 3 days a year and was the #1 international event, its yet to be seen if it'll live up to that for SC2. I look at the GSL as like the English Premier League of SC2, the best players, the most money, best performance on a world stage. I agree with CatZ in what he's saying, which seems to be that NA needs its own SC2 equivalent of like MLS if we're going to see players really improve and begin to compete on the international level with top Korean players.

Eventually once tournaments have established themselves after multiple seasons I think you'll see the organizers that are coming in a little later start to look at it and say, "we don't have the resources to top these established tournaments as major international events, so we're going to focus on this region, and try and capture that particular group of viewers' attention." Like CatZ said, EPS is already doing this in Europe, and I don't doubt there will be a group that comes along and does that elsewhere.

On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time

16 man offline final IN USA

games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)

Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).

Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.

just my 2 cents.

On April 10 2011 08:13 oursblanc wrote:
It really makes all the difference that to play in the GSL you have to move to Korea.

On April 10 2011 09:28 EdSlyB wrote:


This ^
Or if Koreans that wanted to play in the NASL had to move to NA. That would require a great deal of commitment from the korean players that the online qualifiers simply can't give.

I think that Catz simply wants to say that he is in favor of global tournaments (i.e. tournaments where anyone can play) BUT if you want to participate in them you have to be physically present at the tournament grounds to play. This give a better chance of the local players to win and make a name for themselves since players from another regions will have an handicap. Of course that 'local' players that want to participate in another tournaments will then have the same handicap. That would be ideal if there was a global tournaments in several places like Europe, South America, Russia, North America.

Peace.

On April 10 2011 09:33 Hierarch wrote:
To all the people saying the NASL will not be legitimized or not having Koreans is bad for the league growth and viewership etc... how are the people going to react when they start losing? Is it going to derail the wins and accomplishments of the foreigners like in TSL? All these factors in an online tournament hurt the koreans, and they end up giving half ass efforts or they play worse than people know they are capable of. If you want to see the koreans just to have koreans in the tournament then I guess this is acceptable but for the people who want to see the koreans compete with the foreigners in this league it will be at a handicap and that to some people will delegitimize the tournament.

A tournament every 3 months or so like the GSL World Championships would be better suited, you could have 3 teams go round robin, US/EU/KR that would be entertaining and promote nationalism and let people root for their players.

On April 10 2011 09:30 SDream wrote:
@SKC

As an exemple, Marta, the best female soccer player in the world for many years, does not win alone and I think that this difference is crucial here. Her team, Western New York Flash, is winning and the team is american. In the same way we have some argentinos and other LA players in our soccer clubs, but they're still brazilian clubs and that's what matters.

In SC2, the player is the whole team, what would you say if an european soccer team would win the brazilian cup, isn't it wierd?

So if you want to compare both I think you need to take that into consideration.

On April 10 2011 09:28 EdSlyB wrote:


This ^
Or if Koreans that wanted to play in the NASL had to move to NA. That would require a great deal of commitment from the korean players that the online qualifiers simply can't give.

I think that Catz simply wants to say that he is in favor of global tournaments (i.e. tournaments where anyone can play) BUT if you want to participate in them you have to be physically present at the tournament grounds to play. This give a better chance of the local players to win and make a name for themselves since players from another regions will have an handicap. Of course that 'local' players that want to participate in another tournaments will then have the same handicap. That would be ideal if there was a global tournaments in several places like Europe, South America, Russia, North America.

Peace.

On April 10 2011 09:34 SKC wrote:


Do you honestly believe people wouldn't delegitimize the tounament for not having koreans? Even more people would say the guy just won because the good players didn't play. People will talk shit, you can't stop that, but you have to do what's best to the tournament. If westerns keep on beating the koreans, a lot of them will stop complaining.

On April 10 2011 09:30 vict1019 wrote:
Agree with catz. Just like soccer in the USA, its all about having homegrown players compete in the MLS. If the MLS just brings in foreign players to play in the league and take up all the available spots then our home grown players will not have a chance and will never improve.

On April 10 2011 08:21 fadestep wrote:


I always wonder why gamers have such a fascination with LAN. Sure its cool, but I don't see it as a superior venue. One of the major advantages of eSports is the fact that everybody involved can do it from their own home. I know the experience of meeting others and that type of community building is superior at LAN, but from an actual gameplay/spectator perspective - there isn't really any reason why the top venue shouldn't be online.

On April 10 2011 09:44 chonkyfire wrote:


The MLS is kind of a bad example. The United States is more interested in football/basketball/baseball and always will be.

I feel like the arguments could be put aside if the NASL was only a LAN event. If that was the case, then I don't see why Koreans shouldn't be allowed to compete if it means a lifestyle change for them.

At the end of the day though this is only season 1. As time goes on it will all fix itself. I personally think the NASL invited mostly on who is going to get them the most ratings for the first season. Moon vs Grubby? It's pretty obvious.

Hopefully the NASL won't flop. I'm pretty optimistic about it though. I think Starcraft 2 is going to have a good future.

On April 10 2011 09:44 Hierarch wrote:


Why would not having koreans delegitimize a tournament? If no koreans were participating you judge it based on who is participating, not who could have been participating, people don't judge GSL based on if Dimaga or KiWiKaKi or Naniwa would have been participating, they judge it on who played. Why do we have to compare ourselves to koreans 100% of the time? This isn't BW. I feel like having a foreigner league wouldn't be a bad thing and would be equally popular, honestly if those 10 koreans weren't there and there were 10 more top NA and/or EU players in NASL I guarantee the number of people who would have not watched at all would be very few. The main problem with having koreans play under these conditions is it's going to cause a lot of "woulda, coulda, shoulda."

On April 10 2011 09:51 dtz wrote:


But why are the US more interested in football/bastketball/baseball and not other sports. It is probably because they are one of the best in the world at it ( or at least have the most exciting/best league)

What sport are the US interested in , in which they don't have top players or a top league in the world in that particular sport? I can't think of any at that top of my head whereas for many other countries, being good in that particular sport is not a prerequisite. Many countries love soccer and have soccer as their no1 sport although their countries are absolutely awful at it

The average soccer fans in other countries can root for barcelona/real madrid/manchester united/arsenal as much as they root for their local team. The average basketball fans in other countries can root for Lakers/Spurs/Celtics as much as the local basketball teams in Australia for example. But not the average US sportsviewers.

Good or bad, these patriotism is something that is intrinsic and essential in getting the casual fans to watch and support and enjoy starcraft and thus it is completely essential that the NA scene is top notch and their players are the best in the world. Otherwise, many average viewers won't bother with it.

On April 10 2011 09:49 Swarmed wrote:
You wouldn't even be able to field 50 US players at a high enough level that would really attract large amounts of viewers. Case closed right there imo.

On April 10 2011 09:44 Hierarch wrote:


Why would not having koreans delegitimize a tournament? If no koreans were participating you judge it based on who is participating, not who could have been participating, people don't judge GSL based on if Dimaga or KiWiKaKi or Naniwa would have been participating, they judge it on who played. Why do we have to compare ourselves to koreans 100% of the time? This isn't BW. I feel like having a foreigner league wouldn't be a bad thing and would be equally popular, honestly if those 10 koreans weren't there and there were 10 more top NA and/or EU players in NASL I guarantee the number of people who would have not watched at all would be very few. The main problem with having koreans play under these conditions is it's going to cause a lot of "woulda, coulda, shoulda."

On April 10 2011 09:52 SKC wrote:


I didn't said it does, I said people would say that it does, in response to you saying that they will do it now, which implies they wouldn't if the koreans were participating. Keys diference. Then I said "People will talk shit, you can't stop that".

My opinion? It's not about delegitimizing or whatever, it's about bringing the best show for the viewers, it's about being fair, not excluding just one nation just because they are good, it's about giving chance for the western community to prove itself against Korea.

On April 10 2011 09:56 Hierarch wrote:


I agree with you on this, but why are we making 100% of the effort to get koreans to integrate with the rest of the world? While korea insists on "you must be in korea to participate in our tournament" it's not feasible for the vast majority of people to do that, I feel like the foreigner community should have it's chance against korea but I don't feel this is the best conduit to achieve that goal.

On April 10 2011 09:51 dtz wrote:


But why are the US more interested in football/bastketball/baseball and not other sports. It is probably because they are one of the best in the world at it ( or at least have the most exciting/best league)

What sport are the US interested in , in which they don't have top players or a top league in the world in that particular sport? I can't think of any at that top of my head whereas for many other countries, being good in that particular sport is not a prerequisite. Many countries love soccer and have soccer as their no1 sport although their countries are absolutely awful at it

On April 10 2011 09:52 Hierarch wrote:


That's why it would be NA + EU and any korean who wanted to play abroad and make a serious commitment to play in the NASL.

On April 10 2011 09:59 SDream wrote:
@SKC

I know zero about tennis, let's move to our marathons instead

I know a lot of brazilians that don't like all these africans winning "our" São Silvestre Marathon, but at least they are here in Brazil, in a foreign place/culture/etc so I think it makes it interesting for everyone, if there was a 100% of chance of a brazilian winning it I wouldn't watch it :D

So yeah, I can agree with Koreans on a North American League, specially because I wouldn't like to see a brazilian being stoped from trying it as well. But at least make them move there? o.o Idk if I like this aproach.

On April 10 2011 09:55 mordk wrote:


Because everything is always compared to a Gold Standard, in every discipline in life. In this case, the gold standard for SC2 is korea, and not just in player skill regards, but also in production quality, sponsors and money involved, and managerial and social aspects of e-sports. It becomes only logical to compare, then, with koreans. I know that if I could watch a GSL vod between SlayerS_Alicia and oGs_TOP or a NASL vod between KiWiKaKi and Slush, I will watch GSL vod every possible time, since I expect that vod to have 3 times or more the quality of NASL, not just because of the players, but because of how GSL just IS.

Having koreans is beneficial for the NASL. Try some regional minor leagues sponsored by money raised by the NASL with local players, keep the NASL a larger global event, that way it makes a LOT more sense.

On April 10 2011 09:49 Swarmed wrote:
You wouldn't even be able to field 50 US players at a high enough level that would really attract large amounts of viewers. Case closed right there imo.

On April 10 2011 09:58 SKC wrote:


MLG insists on "you must be in X location to participate". Dreamhack does that too. That's the diference of online and offline tournaments. Everyone agrees that offline is better despite this problem, but NASL offline is unreasonable. You seriously can't punish them from doing an offline tournament. Local online tournament? No such thing in Korea, as far as I know. It's not about making an effort to integrate, it's about not making an effort to separate.

On April 10 2011 10:00 Hrrrrm wrote:


So basically EU guys can play long distance but, Koreans can't. In what world does that make any sense. So you either shut yourself off to only NA and have everyone move to NA or you open it up to everyone. Singling out Koreans you are just saying, we don't mind getting beat by these guys over here(EU), but we don't want to get beat by those guys over there(KOR).

It's so silly it's hard to take seriously.

On April 10 2011 10:02 Serpico wrote:

new viewers wouldnt even know the difference. The point is to reach new audiences.

On April 10 2011 10:06 anonmice wrote:
is he crying o.o, or stoned

On April 10 2011 10:03 Treetop wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with CatZ on this issue. I don't think anyone can really agree that Koreans are naturally superior at a video game than non-Korean people. They have their infrastructure in place already from the years and years of BW play.

To disagree with grungust above me here, I think tons of the foreigner players have as much discipline as the Koreans do to hold down that kind of 10-12 hour practice schedule that they need to be the best of the best. But even with coaching and streaming and the nickle and dime $100-200 tournaments that there are 3 of per day, that's just not enough money for players to fully take the jump, pack up their belongings and move into a player house.

You take players with great potential, such as TL's Mr.Bitter. He is a mid masters player and has spent a ridiculous amount of time and money trying to teach and learn from pros because that's the only outlet that he has. If we can really establish a tournament, whether it be NASL/IGN/Dreamhack/IEM with fantastic prize pools and real, and I mean REAL incentive, these houses would really get going and the foreigners could play on the Korean level in a fairly short period of time.

Instead, people that are on the cusp of being pro players won't take that big plunge into quitting their day job and just practicing 4-5 hours a day because it's too risky and could potentially ruin their life.

Give it a couple years. Let NA and EU establish their bases and their player houses. Give them some incentive to work THAT hard without worry about MC taking 3 hours out of his day, rolling over everyone, taking the fat paycheck and demoralizing players that have ridiculous potential that they'll never realize because of how big that risk really is.

Sure, the games won't be the best at first. But, that is just at first. We will be good enough to play with the Koreans on any stage as long as we get a chance to really plant our feet and dedicate our lives to playing.

My two cents. Probably said before. Sorry.

On April 10 2011 10:10 Serpico wrote:

who says they would lose viewers? If you wont watch an event because 5 or 6 players arent in it then you probably didnt watch starcraft for anything but those players anyways. If you dont think watching players like morrow, idra, jinro and naniwa for example is good enough then nothing ever will in the western SC 2 scene. Small events that are based in states aren't necessarily what I mean, even then they wouldnt need nearly as many viewers to be a success. A non korean tournament could easily be a success.

On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.

Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol.

I find it odd like Incontrol mentioned in his first post: No one seemed to complain about Europeans being in. If it is just about NA, why would Europeans be allowed in?

On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:

No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said.

On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:


So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans.

On April 10 2011 10:01 hifriend wrote:
I'm having a hard time following his line of thought. All this time I've been thinking the different communities from all countries coming together and competing in big tournaments is about the best thing that could possibly have happened for e-sports, but this guy apparently takes the stance that limiting competition to within certain arbitrary geographical parameters is going to promote competition and the scene as a whole. I understand that it might increase incentive somewhat if the competition was softer, but that doesn't necessarily mean players are magically going to get better within the region. At one point he even says that there should be a bigger risk associated with participating in tournaments, which to me sounds like it would probably lessen the incentive to play full time as a pro.

And what about the fans? Surely, most people are more likely to pay up for matches between really great players, rather than mediocre players that just so happen to live in a certain country. To be honest I don't really see myself spectating a swedish starleague even if such a thing existed, and I would dare say sweden has a stronger pool of players than USA.

Then there are all the great players living in nations where e-sports are still extremely undeveloped, what would happen if all the big competitions didn't allow brat_ok, white-ra and moonglade to participate without them actually moving to a foreign country half across the world?

Oh and besides, foreigners seem to be defeating koreans fairly consistently now. Idra, Jinro and huk are all code S calibre players but we don't see them dominating foreign competition..

Basically, if nasl or the other one (IGN?) wants to be restricted to north americans I'm fine with that, I just wouldn't watch it and I think he should cut out the 'promoting e-sports' crap, because I somehow doubt that this guy is really looking out for e-sports.

On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans?

On April 10 2011 10:25 KMom wrote:
I think there's two sides to this issue, both having merit.

Keep in mind that I'm making the (fairly safe) assumption that Korea, right now, is on top for Starcraft. There's a reason why anyone fears Koreans coming into the tournaments - not because their players are naturally more skilled by any extent but because they have a much stronger infrastructure for professional gaming and players are allowed to devote much more of their time and effort into practicing and getting better at the sport. That said..

So first, we look at CatZ's argument. His thesis is basically that if we allow Koreans to simply participate in these tournaments in their offtime without having them make some sort of commitment to the tournaments to keep every top Korean pro gamer from participating at will. I don't think there's any doubt that there's going to be at least a high probability (discounting lag) that Koreans will dominate the tournament. As CatZ said, yes, foreigners can beat Koreans, especially in SC2, but there's a clear general difference in the amount of time progamers have to play in Korea as well as the variety/skill level of the practice partners they have. Thus, it will, in theory, stunt the growth of E-Sports in the foreigner world because the Koreans will just dominate, denying foreigners the opportunity to grow.

Take this as an analogy - when I picked up Brood War in about 2008-9 (I had had it for years but I was too young to care to play anything except UMS maps) I decided to play 1v1s. Needless to say, I got stomped. This is because Battle.net (1.0) had no divisions between players of differing skill level (obviously there were a lot of hackers too but that's besides the point, I think). There was no way for me to learn what was good against what because I had to play immediately against people that knew exactly what build order to go for, how to respond whenever they scouted what I was doing, and what timings were good. Simply losing every time in ways that were seemingly unrelated meant that I never really got the chance to learn. Even in iccup, the worst of players (D-, D) would probably be comparable to around Platinum or Diamond in Starcraft 2. Still, as the Bronze equivalent at Brood War, I never got the opportunity to learn.

Then came SC2 beta - I got my key from a friend who had no interest in the game, and got started. I got placed into Silver in the first phase of beta. However, the Starcraft 2 metagame was still rather new and allowed a lot of maneuvering in the strategies I could go for. So I got better. By the second phase I was a lot better and placed into platinum, and advanced into diamond days after. Being put into a game where people knew about as much as I did and playing people around my skill level meant that I was able to overcome one obstacle at a time to learn. Today, I'm in Master league. Most of you will probably respond that that doesn't mean anything, but considering where I started, I'd say its sensible to say I came a long way, and I know exactly where the credit is due.

However, I think there's another side of the coin. If we compartmentalize Starcraft 2 into "Korea" and "foreigner world", I think we're never going to achieve global success in e-sports simply because people will view the two regions as being inherently different in skill level and dedication to Starcraft. What I mean is, we need Korean players to play in foreigner tournaments to lend them legitimacy. Otherwise, people are going to question how impressive it is that IdrA (obvious bias showing here ) won the NASL when there is a whole group of people across the ocean who could, conceivably, stomp him.

If we don't allow Koreans to participate, the best North American gamers are simply going to move to Korea to play with the best to become the best. That's going to prevent E-Sports from growing in the foreigner world.

CatZ's soccer analogy works here too. Consider Tim Howard, perhaps the best American goalie today. Having started in the US, he was later recruited by Manchester United, a larger, more famous, and more "legitimate" soccer team. Being the best goalie in the United States doesn't seem to mean much when people believe that once he's put up with top quality strikers like Rooney and Messi (forgive me, I'm not extremely familiar with soccer so I'm only naming people with big names here - excuse me if they aren't the best ones I could have named) could potentially make Howard crumble. So Howard moves to England to compete with the best and prove himself.

But where does that leave the US? Nowhere. We're still seen to be stuck with a pool of players with a lower skill level, leaving much of the rest of the world to seem far superior.

The solution, ultimately, would be that we host tournaments with prize pools large enough to attract Korean gamers over to North America rather than the other way around. Until that happens, however, the foreigner world needs to prove CONSISTENTLY that they are able to win against Koreans. The only way to do that is to have Koreans play in our tournaments. Yes, they might win more than we do, but the longer we maintain our isolation, the farther ahead the Koreans are going to get.

The foreigner world is ridiculously close to the Koreans in terms of skill level now, as shown in the GSL World Championship (maybe not the individual tournament, but you get my point, I'd hope). We're only going to drift farther apart though, unless we join our competitions together. Doing this now will give our top players a chance to topple the Koreans and gain E-sports the legitimacy it needs in the West to actually become socially accepted and popular.

Thanks for reading.

No TL;DR - if you're not going to read it then just ignore this.

On April 10 2011 10:27 alexhard wrote:
If segregating competition between countries is a good thing, then it necessarily follows that segregating competition on a more granular level is also a good thing. After all, Florida has team houses! How could Wisconsin possibly grow its e-sports scene and player talent if it has to compete with Florida?! Repeat ad infinitum for cities, apartment blocks, etc.

On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.

just my 2 cents.

On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:


So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans.

On April 10 2011 10:42 emesen wrote:



99% of those people that you say WANT Koreans in every tournament also happen to be already a part of the esports scene. They want Koreans because of the high level of play that they bring and the big names and history that come with them.

In order for growth to occur in the West, in North America and Europe, people outside of the esports scene need to become involved. The best way for that to happen is for localization. Much like how cities are defined by their sports teams and their rivalries with other teams. ie, Dallas Cowboys v Philadelphia Eagles, Or how sports themselves can revolve around the players, ie Lebron James, Kobe, Federer. People may not follow golf, but they sure as hell know who Tiger Woods is.

I'll cite a sports moment that defined a nation. The Miracle on Ice. That particular incident was a defining moment for hockey in the United States because the Soviet Union was a powerhouse in the sport, but also because of the Cold War backdrop (storyline). It wouldn't bear any relevance if it was the world vs the Soviet Union, except to Soviet fans.

The esports scene to the average person is, to put it bluntly, foreign. Too much emphasis is placed on the difference between Koreans and "Foreigners" The label creates disassociation. How can a casual viewer identify with that? Is this the whole world against Korea? That galvanizes the fans of the Korean scene.

Catz is advocating an emphasis on regional play to promote the growth of the scene in those regions.

On April 10 2011 10:42 kedinik wrote:
That was a bunch of rambling xenophobia that boils down to THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!

On April 10 2011 10:54 Ash wrote:
is ROOTCatZ the same person as iG.Catz in Brood War days?

On April 10 2011 10:53 Jakkerr wrote:
In my opinion catz is right,
If you really want E-sports to grow u don't invite MC and Nada and guys like that just cuz the chance that they will win the whole thing is like superbig.
In the future I think this would be the most ideal situation:
2-3 leagues under the same name with a promotion/relegation system
lets call em NASL Main and NASL 2nd

Let's say we still use the current NASL system:
50 guys 10 divisions in both leagues.
At the end there's still the regular playoffs
But how about this, the nr 10 of each division directly relegates to the 2nd league
all nr 1 from the 2nd league directly promote to the main league
nr 8 & 9 of the main league play promotion/relegation matches with nr 2 & 3 of the 2nd league
Off course you would need some kind of qualifiers for the 2nd league :>

It looks quite similar to the GSL system but with more chances to promote when ur good enough IMO.
Off course I know this is in no way doable atm but it sounded like a nice plan for the future IMO ^^

On April 10 2011 10:31 Serpico wrote:

You're joking right? It has nothing do with racism. Infact what I said could mean you would take ONLY koreans if that would grow western esports. You're coming out of left field here.

On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:

^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are.

On April 10 2011 10:53 Cathasaigh wrote:


Did you even watch it? How does saying that he wants to build the NA scene or the European scene boil down to xenophobia? He even said he wouldn't even care if they played if they put in the effort to come over and play, but them joining this huge tournament that's online doesn't do as much to grow the scene as if it was just NA or just European stuff

On April 10 2011 10:42 kedinik wrote:
That was a bunch of rambling xenophobia that boils down to THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!

On April 10 2011 11:07 mbr2321 wrote:
I think CatZ is taking a ridiculous line on this whole thing. Right now, the Koreans make events like TSL, NASL, etc. exciting because in BW, nobody could beat Koreans, and the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners right now is still small enough, such that foreigners can consistently keep up with the Koreans. The utter domination foreigners handed out to Koreans in the TSL makes it more exciting and fun imo because there is a "Korea vs. The World" mentality going into these kinds of tournaments. Korea representation in foreigner tournaments does more to catalyze the growth of e-sports than does regional competition.

On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:

It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly.

But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else.

Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time.

Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams.

- - - -

Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup.

- - - -

What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them.

You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other.

Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL.

These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic.

People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous.

If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice?

People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports.

Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY.

On April 10 2011 11:09 ApBuLLet wrote:
I think part of CatZ's argument which he couldn't articulate particularly well is the fact that its hard for the foreign scene to flourish when korean players are winning all of the money. The reason for this is that the money is what makes playing full time and professionally considerable. I think that's what he was getting at with the whole "non-koreans need something to work for" thing. It takes a ton of time and effort to get good enough to be able to compete in all of these huge tournaments with the best of the best, and no matter how much players want to do that purely for their passion for the game, they simply can't if it can't support them financially. If foreign players are not able to put in the same time and effort that the koreans can then clearly they will not be as good as them and won't be until putting in the time is plausible.

CatZ is definitely right considering the way eSports is now, where most of a player's SC2 relate earnings (and in most cases ALL of their earnings) come from tournament prizes. If player's were paid salaries by their teams (and teams were supported more financially from their sponsors) then having koreans and foreigners playing in the same tournaments would be fine, and probably even beneficial, simply because tournament prizes are not relied on. So yeah at first koreans would probably win most of the big prize pool tournaments but eventually it would even out. However that is not the case right now and that is why, as CatZ said, having everyone competing in the same tournaments can be detrimental to eSports outside of South Korea.

In my mind the ultimate goal is for all players across the world to compete in the same leagues, and to be financially supported by their teams by means of a salary (just like players in any sport are). That's how it is in baseball, basketball, football. soccer, hockey, and pretty much any major sport you can think of. One thing we can do as fans to encourage this is to provide our financial support by doing things as "buying a t-shirt" like Sundance of MLG said. Buy HD passes to streams, by team/player based apparel (to the teams out there: sell team shirts!!!), buy lessons from players if you are into that, and definitely buy products from team sponsors to encourage team and player sponsorships.

P.S. Professional sports organizations and entertainment firms make most of their revenue from merchandise, which is something that eSports has been severely lacking in, although I think that is going to change soon. I think that making more things available to the community to purchase would really help the growth of eSports and would make it financially viable, and even rewarding, to become a part of as either a player, team, or sponsor. So basically, get more things out there for us fans to show our support!

On April 10 2011 10:57 Tachion wrote:
How does having only NA players grow the NA scene when there is not as much attention surrounding a NA only league? Is it better for the NA pros? Yea, more spots are open for them, and it's easier competition. Does it help to grow the NA scene? Nope, I don't think so. The tournament will get less attention, less viewers, less sponsorship etc. than a tournament that has some world class Koreans competing in it. Can anyone really give me a reason why this wouldn't be the case?

On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:

It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly.

But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else.

Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time.

Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams.

- - - -

Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup.

- - - -

What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them.

You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other.

Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL.

These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic.

People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous.

If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice?

People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports.

Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY.

On April 10 2011 11:10 SKC wrote:


Exactly, people like to watch they home team agaisnt play against someone else. There will always be north american players in NASL, and some will probally always qualify. Your argument doen't take in account that what is proposed, a regional league, means only players you support. You seem to be arguing against the removal of american players. I can say that there I know plenty of sports where people love rooting for their nation players against other nations.

Europe vs NA, Korea vs The World, etc, are all rivalries that help gathering support. Making it regional destroys that. Would every canadian be that excited if Stanley Cup was all canadians?

On April 10 2011 11:08 Baarn wrote:


You are either trolling or didn't bother to watch the video before typing that rubbish and pushing post. There was no mention of xenophobia or losing jobs. Watch the video this time.

On April 10 2011 11:18 Insanious wrote:

If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period...

The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything.

With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues.

What CatZ was talking about was having something like:

- Germany only
- USA only
- Canada only
- What ever country only...

Then:
- League where its best people from NA only
- League where its best people from EU only

Then:
- League where its best people from NA / EU only

Then:
- Global leagues

- - -

He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4.

That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested.

He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level.

Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried).

Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports...

On April 10 2011 11:20 Sandro wrote:
Several posters said earlier that Koreans were having a hard time making a living off of SC2.

My question is why should we care? What did Korea do to help foster the BW foreign scene? Why should it be down to us to help the Korean SC2 scene?

On April 10 2011 11:08 deL wrote:

Have to agree with Geoff. Restricting the big prizes to NA players only won't make world-class players develop, it will make players who are good/competitive within the confines of NA and not necessarily on a world scale - you might end up with a bunch of players who are local heroes but 2nd tier to those who play in big events with international presence. The inclusion of top international players means the standard of local play has to rise to meet it.

On April 10 2011 11:18 Insanious wrote:

If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period...

The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything.

With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues.

What CatZ was talking about was having something like:

- Germany only
- USA only
- Canada only
- What ever country only...

Then:
- League where its best people from NA only
- League where its best people from EU only

Then:
- League where its best people from NA / EU only

Then:
- Global leagues

- - -

He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4.

That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested.

He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level.

Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried).

Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports...

On April 10 2011 11:25 emesen wrote:



Growth of esports does not equate to having world class players develop.

Growth of esports means more interest in the scene, which leads to more viewers, high notoriety, more interest from sponsors, higher funding, better production value, bigger tournaments, the sponsorship of teams, more money,player salaries... in other words a sustainable business

When people talk about the growth of esports in comparison to Koreans. They want the infrastructure that lead the Korean scene to have players earning 6 figure salaries here in the west.

On April 10 2011 11:27 Zlasher wrote:
Completely agree.

I've felt this way for a while, that we're just allowing other countries run away with certain games. CatZ is nailing it though.

On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
In general it is hard to outright disagree with what Catz is saying because at the basis of his argument is the fact that local stars need to rise up in order for this sport to grow. This is true no matter what way we will use to arrive at that point. It also is easier to create American stars in the US than it is to create Korean stars in the US. People like their national heroes.

However I think a lot of the arguments he builds on after this fact aren't that strong. I don't think the national league argument holds up as well in individual sports as he makes it seem.

The reason why he is only able to point at examples with team sports getting huge national leagues up is because often times teams get supported by people from a certain region within the nation and thus there is a lot of emotion attached to supporting them. Through that emotion you can fill up stadiums up to 100k people. You can see this in soccer, NBA, NHL etc.

In individual sports like tennis, bicycle racing, MMA, and StarCraft; people tend to attach themselves much more so to the individual itself and/or his nationality. You won't be able to fill up stadiums with supporters from the exact region Roger Federer is from. That attachment to regional teams in team sports, and that attachment to national players in individual sports, they are very important to the scene, but it is important that we do not mix them up and most importantly don't expect a national league for an individual sport being able to draw upon too much emotional support for their regional heroes.

A national league for an individual sport would mostly draw upon the viewers individual like or dislike for a player. Whether it is based on race or personality. If this argument is true then it makes the argument for national leagues much weaker because it would mean that people are able to start to like an individual player even if he is not from their nation. I believe this can be seen in Korean esports, TSL, IEM, MLG and basically any league that is going on right now.

National interest in an individual is still huge. Regional interest much less so.

Another argument would be that knowing how little the non-Koreans practice compared to their Korean counterparts, it kind of bugs me to see the need to ask for exclusive tournaments. The infrastructure may not be as good as in Korea with the teamhouses but it sure is a lot better than what the players are doing with it. Basically you shouldn't ask for easier leagues if you are not making the most out of your opportunities.

The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans?

On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.

Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others.

On April 10 2011 11:18 Insanious wrote:

If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period...

The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything.

With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues.

What CatZ was talking about was having something like:

- Germany only
- USA only
- Canada only
- What ever country only...

Then:
- League where its best people from NA only
- League where its best people from EU only

Then:
- League where its best people from NA / EU only

Then:
- Global leagues

- - -

He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4.

That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested.

He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level.

Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried).

Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports...

On April 10 2011 11:39 00Visor wrote:


Nazgul said it all. Read this.

On April 10 2011 11:14 KevinIX wrote:


I understand what CatZ is saying, but I don't think that NASL is the tournament to blame it on. The NASL is an online tournament, and it only makes sense that an online tournament allows players from all over the world participate.

I think instead, what CatZ is hoping, is that the NASL develops and grows a new branch similar to the MLG that is only LAN/live play. Or that the MLG grows far larger and becomes the premier tournament in North America.

On April 10 2011 11:51 tinydancer wrote:
The only way to have really high level players is for them to be able to practice every single day, which is why he mentioned the root and eg practice houses. The only way that NA will be able to develop players is if there are big enough prize pools that they actually have a legitimate chance at winning.

And it is not racist to say that Korea has a much better and developed sc2 player infrastructure. Their gaming houses are a huge advantage, and their team support allows for a lot of players to legitimately be sc2 pros and make that economically feasible. It's not the race, its just the fact that living in Korea is a huge advantage for players...

On April 10 2011 11:44 KevinIX wrote:


I also agree with Nazgul. Although it is a surprise that Western pros are making more money than Korean pros.

On April 10 2011 11:42 Dice17 wrote:
I would like to point out that what Catz was saying is actually something that is going on and is happening right now. For example, Taiwan just got their very own starleague that is televised. Although the skill cap in taiwan isn't very high generally speaking, it is making huge growth for sc2 in taiwan as an esport. As of now the only two Taiwan players we have really heard of is Sen and Softball, but as Taiwan grows we will most likely start to see more players coming out or maybe even see some Europeans or Americans fly there for competition. Another thing Catz said is that we need figures to look at. Taiwan has Sen and Softball like I said.


Also, while browsing the forums I saw that there is some talk of people trying to grow sc2 in Japan. I being Japanese would think that this would be absolutley amazing (and im also not very good at sf4 ). Since they do not have a huge fan base they are wanting to try to become good enough to a level where they can compete with some part of the world. I feel if they did this more Japanese people would take an interest and soon there will be two new major esport homes.

Catz makes great points and even though he doesn't mention it, his theories are backed up by living proof.

On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.

Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others.

On April 10 2011 11:59 ApBuLLet wrote:


Yeah it is about the money because whether you like it or not the money is what will stimulate the growth of eSports. There's no way around that. If there is no money in it then people cannot dedicate their lives to it (which is what it takes to compete at the very top level, with the koreans) unless they want to live in a box.

It's about the level of development of eSports in the different regions. Korean eSports is more developed then anywhere else in the world, and that is why he seems to be singling them out. I don't feel like he is being greedy and doesn't think he'll win any money when competing with koreans, I think he fears that the koreans will hinder the growth of foreign eSports by sucking the only source of viability out of it, which is large tournament prize pools.

On April 10 2011 11:23 alexhard wrote:


That still doesn't address why Koreans are better, and how western players are going to "catch up". There is more money in the west, there are more tournaments in the west, more players are salaried and living comfortably off starcraft in the west. This has not resulted in higher skill in the west. Why does anyone think that heaping even more money without competition over westerners will help?

On April 10 2011 12:04 zocktol wrote:


I would liek to argue your point, that a lot of players are living comfortably off a salary in the western scene. I'm not sure but i think that people on Root or Mouz or Alternate Attax, are not living of a salarie but are more or less doing something besides progaming to finance their living.

Actually i totaly agree with Catz on the point that it should start out localy and then grow. If i see, in a potential german league, somebody from my hometown play against somebody from a different city i have an emotional connection and might be rooting for him just for that reason, that we had the same birthplace. If Heosat.San plays against oGsZenio, i do not care in any way, who wins but hope for some insane plays. I am not emotionally invested in any way, for me they are both just random koreans i do not care about, which sounds harsh but is the sad reality.

Emotional investment, however, is something that is needed for a sport(yes i am comparing e-Sport to "regular" sports) to become successfull. Thats why you see people cry when THEIR team looses or their favorite player gets injured. And this emotional connection is way easier to establish on a local stage than globally. This is how soccer got succesfull and how other sports get successfull.

On April 10 2011 12:03 LagT_T wrote:


Read Liquid'Nazgul's post please.

On April 10 2011 12:06 Insanious wrote:

What he said has nothing to do with what Nazgul said...

Compare the salaries of SC:BW pros to those in SC2...

Hell, Compare what oGsMC makes vs the top foreigner.

- - - -

Not even that, look at the fact that the koreans have pro houses where westerners do not. That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference!

Koreans have a better learning environment, and that is due to infrastructure, that is due to oh ya... support money from teams.

NA/EU teams don't have that kind of support (pro houses) and as such have less practice time, and as such are worse then koreans...

- - - -

It is not all about pay, a lot of it is about infastructure, and yes... korean e-sport infastructure is a million miles ahead of western infastructure...

1) Pro-Houses
2) TV Channels
3) Celebrity Status

Korea has these, NA/EU does not.

On April 10 2011 12:09 LagT_T wrote:


The lack of western prohouses is not due to lack of funding, is due to what it seems lack of commitment. Now that players are commiting to esports pro houses are appearing (EG, Root)

On April 10 2011 12:06 Insanious wrote:

What he said has nothing to do with what Nazgul said...

Compare the salaries of SC:BW pros to those in SC2...

Hell, Compare what oGsMC makes vs the top foreigner.

- - - -

Not even that, look at the fact that the koreans have pro houses where westerners do not. That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference!

Koreans have a better learning environment, and that is due to infrastructure, that is due to oh ya... support money from teams.

NA/EU teams don't have that kind of support (pro houses) and as such have less practice time, and as such are worse then koreans...

- - - -

It is not all about pay, a lot of it is about infastructure, and yes... korean e-sport infastructure is a million miles ahead of western infastructure...

1) Pro-Houses
2) TV Channels
3) Celebrity Status

Korea has these, NA/EU does not.