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On April 10 2011 08:52 p4NDemik wrote:
Right now everything is all very new, and tournaments are all vying to be as big and bad as they can be. Its a new experience for so many people and everyone wants to be the tournament with the best competitors and greatest games.
Since CatZ is going for the allusion to soccer I'll try to look at how I view the situation: Right now we don't know whats going to be like the "World Cup of SC2." In the past it was WCG for BW - it happened for 3 days a year and was the #1 international event, its yet to be seen if it'll live up to that for SC2. I look at the GSL as like the English Premier League of SC2, the best players, the most money, best performance on a world stage. I agree with CatZ in what he's saying, which seems to be that NA needs its own SC2 equivalent of like MLS if we're going to see players really improve and begin to compete on the international level with top Korean players.
Eventually once tournaments have established themselves after multiple seasons I think you'll see the organizers that are coming in a little later start to look at it and say, "we don't have the resources to top these established tournaments as major international events, so we're going to focus on this region, and try and capture that particular group of viewers' attention." Like CatZ said, EPS is already doing this in Europe, and I don't doubt there will be a group that comes along and does that elsewhere.
This is exactly how I view it. I think we really need something like MLS, and even the equivalent of more "community clubs" like in Soccer: local and regional efforts to really get the SC2 movement going. Like that Carolina LAN tournament that was way larger than the organizers expected? I think more effort on that front needs to be pushed. This isn't only on the tournament organizational level, I think people (including myself) need to start paying more attention on what is going on around them regionally. While this is an online game and it's really easy to do online tournaments, and hell, its a game without a LAN component, I think the personal level of local tournaments really is something that could benefit the western eSports community.
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I completely agree with Catz. I really hope there are some NA exclusive leagues that serve as stepping stones for players that want to compete in bigger events, and help SC2 have a grassroots movement.
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On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time
16 man offline final IN USA
games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)
Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).
Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.
just my 2 cents.
The problem with this is that those 99% of people who want to see the koreans are just going to derail the NASL with complaints if and when the koreans lose, all those reasons will become their ammunition and it just creates a bad atmosphere. I think a NA/EU server only league would be better to grow esports out of korea. If people want to see koreans play they can always watch GSL which happens quite frequently so there's enough content if all someone wants to see is koreans. Also if players want to play against koreans they can go to korea, and vice versa if a korean wants to join in these MLG's and NASL and Dreamhack they can travel and stay abroad like the foreigners are forced to do to play in GSL.
Just my 2 cents.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
NASL is super exciting, but people really need to calm down until it starts. There is an incredible range of success and failure stories of esports leagues with more funding and more experience over the last 10 years. To suggest that any one is "THE" north american savior is uneducated and silly. I hope they kill it, but those of us who have been following these things for many years know to hold out until we see what it can produce.
For us (TL) going into SC2 before launch we said that we'd focus on whatever the highest level of competition was. If it was Korea then we'd follow Korea. If it was the west then we'd follow the west. If you don't allow koreans into your league then a decent size of the casual market will immediately label it as sub par imo.
The biggest problem facing western esports right now is a lack of emphasis on production and story. It's really really easy to get 1000$ and pull 16 players into a justin.tv stream. Whats requires a lot more work is communicating what has led up to this match/league and the emotions behind it. The very nature of this video is a good thing for esports - its a story. A story about westerners resenting the ease with which koreans are entering foreign events and THAT is what is interesting. We need 50 more videos like this interview with cats with more editing, more production all leading up to events. That is what will grow western esports - not keeping the top 20 americans in a comfy hole where they collect cash and the same pool of fans watch the "same" games over and over on livestreams.
UFC has a fantastic style of releasing a 1 hour docu following the next 4-6 top fighters on a fight card through their training camps, showing their defeats and wins and creating a narrative for the viewer to enjoy. I think thats what we (as event producers) need to evolve to. We tried to do this a bit with TSLs, but theres way more work that needs to be done.
Why do you think people lost their minds when the foreigners were beating koreans at GSL World Championships or when Whitera took out Boxer/MC. Because thats the narrative - koreans are "better" and every time there is an upset, it creates excitement and conversation. That is what is good for esports.
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In general it is hard to outright disagree with what Catz is saying because at the basis of his argument is the fact that local stars need to rise up in order for this sport to grow. This is true no matter what way we will use to arrive at that point. It also is easier to create American stars in the US than it is to create Korean stars in the US. People like their national heroes.
However I think a lot of the arguments he builds on after this fact aren't that strong. I don't think the national league argument holds up as well in individual sports as he makes it seem.
The reason why he is only able to point at examples with team sports getting huge national leagues up is because often times teams get supported by people from a certain region within the nation and thus there is a lot of emotion attached to supporting them. Through that emotion you can fill up stadiums up to 100k people. You can see this in soccer, NBA, NHL etc.
In individual sports like tennis, bicycle racing, MMA, and StarCraft; people tend to attach themselves much more so to the individual itself and/or his nationality. You won't be able to fill up stadiums with supporters from the exact region Roger Federer is from. That attachment to regional teams in team sports, and that attachment to national players in individual sports, they are very important to the scene, but it is important that we do not mix them up and most importantly don't expect a national league for an individual sport being able to draw upon too much emotional support for their regional heroes.
A national league for an individual sport would mostly draw upon the viewers individual like or dislike for a player. Whether it is based on race or personality. If this argument is true then it makes the argument for national leagues much weaker because it would mean that people are able to start to like an individual player even if he is not from their nation. I believe this can be seen in Korean esports, TSL, IEM, MLG and basically any league that is going on right now.
National interest in an individual is still huge. Regional interest much less so.
Another argument would be that knowing how little the non-Koreans practice compared to their Korean counterparts, it kind of bugs me to see the need to ask for exclusive tournaments. The infrastructure may not be as good as in Korea with the teamhouses but it sure is a lot better than what the players are doing with it. Basically you shouldn't ask for easier leagues if you are not making the most out of your opportunities.
The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans?
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I do see his points but I don't think there's anything that can be done about it. Atm there's 20/50 players from NA in the NASL and I already do think that some of those players are pretty weak. There's no way you could find 50 north americans and put them in a league and actually have a viewerbase to satisfy the sponsors. As InControl said, I think the NASL does a good job of balancing it, there's not too many koreans but there needs to be some to make it interesting.
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First of all, I may have misunderstood what he said, but basketball players live pretty decent lives outside the US. He talks about soccer, but why is soccer growing in US? Because they are pumping more money into it. Europe has the major leagues, because that's where the money is. If you the biggest league in the world, it will attract players from diferent places. US soccer did grow by attracting good players from other countries, so it worked basically in the opposite way of how he proposes SC2 should work.
Of course smaller regional leagues are good, but the key work is smaller. Trying to make the biggest league in the world and keep it regional doesn't have ANY real world comparisons that are viable, because they don't make sense. What happens is, regional leagues are smaller and have lesser prize pools, so they are the place for players to start. Those are the leagues you have to keep top players away from, ussually by not making they financially attractive, so they don't come and take all the money from the upcoming players. Of course this is doesn't currently work for SC2, because it doesn't have the scale of big sports, but it is the only way it could work.
What did he want NASL to be if not online? Did he expect europeans to fly to US every week for a tournament? Players from East Coast flying to LA? They are the exact same things that stop koreans from coming, just on a smaller scale. You either make it a small scale US tournament or you make it wordwide, everyone but korea doesn't make sense, and he can't possibly believe a tournament with only people that could live in LA would make E-Sports grow in the west.
Let's make a comparison between soccer and SC2:
US NASL (North American Soccer League) tried to expand it's viewrship, and by that help the sport grow, by getting famous europeans to come.
US NASL (North American StarLeague) tried to expand it's viewrship, and by that help the e-sport grow, by getting famous koreans to come.
Does anyone believe Messi playing the US league would in any way harm it's growth? Or would it bring a HUGE amount of money and viewers?
EDIT:
Nazgul also just brought an excelent point, it's completelly unreasonable to punish koreans for their dedication to SC, don't a lot of current SC2 western pros make enough to share a house with other 10 people and live in bunkbeds? I'm not trying to disregard their dedication, diferent worlds and all, but a lot of people don't have what it takes to do what they do, look at how many people come back saying they disliked the way they lived in korea. Koreans should be praised for their dedication, not shunned upon it.
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I actually do not really care that Koreans win tournaments like WCG uncontested. But I really like imagining how the world would look like if there were local leagues like the EPS Germany or the GSL everywhere.
There could be leagues in France, UK, Spain, Italy, Scandinavia for example. And the US could be split into leagues for each state or timezone or something along those lines (to get a feel for sizes: California for example has (very) roughly half the population of Germany or France).
Most awesome would be, if there would be clubs in every city all around the world.
If I compare that to other games: If I would notice that playing chess ignites my passion for competition like no other game, I could join some chess club in my city. If I feel that Golf is the best game ever for me, I have a Golf club about half an hour walk away from where I live.
If SC2 would be organized just like that, I think that could rope a lot of people into playing competitively for fun instead of just dicking around on ladder or something.
What's an interesting thought for me is also that the GSL can be seen as a city league, not a South Korea league, but on the other hand Seoul is gigantic with a population of 25 million in the metro area.
Also, 60 years ago, soccer players actually had a day job and then met up after their shift in the coal mine to practice and then drove with their club to their games each weekend or something like that. 
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i don't agree with catz.
With full honestly, tell me please, how much practice would you put in if you know your opponent is some US toss like Cruncher, INcontrol, OpticZero (not targeting specific players just random 3 that didn't win a major tournament in sc2) opposed to someone like oGsMC ?
Don't you think that having high caliber players like koreans will actually give you inspiration to even work harder and push you to improve even more than knowing you are only competing against some good US player?
I will tell you my perspective here as viewer. I love catz, his innovative and fun to watch zerg, and trust me i will cheer way harder for catz to pull some proxy greater spire ( lol imagine ) against MC than some random NA masters player. People love jinro because he is beating koreans for f*** sake. Look at the reaction and the amount of fans that increased for Dimaga after that amazing performance in the GSL WC.
If you want to be the best you have to beat the best, otherwise your title means squat.
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Wow originally I was all for having the best Koreans involved with NA events, but Catz' argument changed my opinion. But I dont think NASL is the bad guy here. I mean they have what like a 4:1 foreigner-to-korean ratio. If they werent trying to grow western esports I think at best the ratio would be 1:1.
I will say though that it always puzzled me why the koreans were spread out over multiple divisions. I think it would add to the legitamacy of the tournament if all the korean-based players were placed in the same division. That way the Koreans wouldn't need to worry about KR-to-NA lag imbalances in at least the divisional play. And heck they could even play the games at a decent hour for them; because its all pre-recorded they could put the "korean division" on a friday, and just time-delay the broadcast to western audiences. That would also help minimize player conflict with MLG, which also spills into the Fridays.
I'd much rather see NASL finals be korean division vs best western division, rather than the top 2 Korean invites duke it out. I guess I want a reoccuring WCG.
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I don't really agree with Catz tbh.
I think inviting Koreans provides an impetus for the west to stay competitive on a global scale. You've also got to think about the structure of SC2 in Korea. Sure they have this great league, but if you aren't top8 in Korea there is little money in it, and you have little chance of making a name for yourself in the way you can in the foreign scene. SC2 just hasn't exploded in Korea to the extent that we can say that they have a vastly superior infrastructure to the west anymore, and with a few exceptions they aren't better players either.
It makes it vastly more exciting for spectators to have Koreans in there (just looking at the hype and reaction around the GOM WC, from the Koreans and Foreigners) as every match between a Korean and foreigner has an in built story line. And look at the extra hype it has given TSL. So from a production stand point it couldn't make more sense.
And I can't agree with some of the posts in this thread that say there should be NA only tournies to provide a stepping stone for unknown players. They can compete in huge numbers of tournies with smaller prize pools while working there way up, a luxury Koreans don't have.
I really think that if you are one of the best players in the world, you should be able to compete in as many of the big (~$20k+) tournies with as little hassle as possible. The people sponsoring a tournament with such a large amount of money are interested in the greatest number of well known talented players as possible in their league to improve viewing figures, and it enables the best player in the world to continuously prove that he is the best in the world, rather than being limited to "best in this region" or whatever that has perforated SC2 up to this point.
And 10 Koreans isn't a huge number. It's not like a large amount of extremely good westerners were refused entry because of the Korean invites - almost all of the big names, plus some relatively obscure ones, are there.
I don't really have enough experience with the behind the scenes of E-esports to comment on the situations with sponsors.
I think there are valid arguments on both sides (especially if you want to talk technical problems with latency and what not) but I think allowing world wide competitors into tournaments and making it relatively easy for them to play in does little to stunt the growth of E-sports in a region and most likely fosters the growth of E-sports on a world scale.
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On April 10 2011 08:13 oursblanc wrote:
It really makes all the difference that to play in the GSL you have to move to Korea.
This ^
Or if Koreans that wanted to play in the NASL had to move to NA. That would require a great deal of commitment from the korean players that the online qualifiers simply can't give.
I think that Catz simply wants to say that he is in favor of global tournaments (i.e. tournaments where anyone can play) BUT if you want to participate in them you have to be physically present at the tournament grounds to play. This give a better chance of the local players to win and make a name for themselves since players from another regions will have an handicap. Of course that 'local' players that want to participate in another tournaments will then have the same handicap. That would be ideal if there was a global tournaments in several places like Europe, South America, Russia, North America.
Peace.
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@SKC
As an exemple, Marta, the best female soccer player in the world for many years, does not win alone and I think that this difference is crucial here. Her team, Western New York Flash, is winning and the team is american. In the same way we have some argentinos and other LA players in our soccer clubs, but they're still brazilian clubs and that's what matters.
In SC2, the player is the whole team, what would you say if an european soccer team would win the brazilian cup, isn't it wierd?
So if you want to compare both I think you need to take that into consideration.
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Agree with catz. Just like soccer in the USA, its all about having homegrown players compete in the MLS. If the MLS just brings in foreign players to play in the league and take up all the available spots then our home grown players will not have a chance and will never improve.
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Most of the SC 2 community as it is now that is extremely passionate about the game wants to see koreans because they can at least recognize and appreciate high level play when they see it. When you're talking about growing the sport and bringing in completely new fans/players it isnt really necessary to have players like MC or MVP. If you want to grow western esports exclusively as your only mission statement then inviting koreans would not really make sense until regional stars have been established and have their own fans. Then you can watch them climb the ladder globally. So it all depends on what each tournament and league is setting out to do really. But I agree we need more regional leagues.
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To all the people saying the NASL will not be legitimized or not having Koreans is bad for the league growth and viewership etc... how are the people going to react when they start losing? Is it going to derail the wins and accomplishments of the foreigners like in TSL? All these factors in an online tournament hurt the koreans, and they end up giving half ass efforts or they play worse than people know they are capable of. If you want to see the koreans just to have koreans in the tournament then I guess this is acceptable but for the people who want to see the koreans compete with the foreigners in this league it will be at a handicap and that to some people will delegitimize the tournament.
A tournament every 3 months or so like the GSL World Championships would be better suited, you could have 3 teams go round robin, US/EU/KR that would be entertaining and promote nationalism and let people root for their players.
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On April 10 2011 09:28 EdSlyB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 08:13 oursblanc wrote:
It really makes all the difference that to play in the GSL you have to move to Korea. This ^ Or if Koreans that wanted to play in the NASL had to move to NA. That would require a great deal of commitment from the korean players that the online qualifiers simply can't give. I think that Catz simply wants to say that he is in favor of global tournaments (i.e. tournaments where anyone can play) BUT if you want to participate in them you have to be physically present at the tournament grounds to play. This give a better chance of the local players to win and make a name for themselves since players from another regions will have an handicap. Of course that 'local' players that want to participate in another tournaments will then have the same handicap. That would be ideal if there was a global tournaments in several places like Europe, South America, Russia, North America. Peace.
If you think even a little about it, it would work. Do you expect everyone in the US to move to the same state? What about Canada? Should they also go to LA?
South American tournament would be awfull, no money, no attendance, no sponsor, the biggest thing a south american can hope to do is to participate on north american online tournaments. Removing that would kill any chances of him getting anywhere.
Doing it in germany may work because it's a small country with a high concentration of top caliber players. That means absolutelly nothing about it being a good idea worldwide. You are asking for a big comittment from someone who still hasn't proved a thing. If a player has proved something, is in a team, moving somewhere may be possible. Asking everyone to do that kills the the chances of a lot of upcoming players of making a name from themselfs and actually would probally hold SC2 back.
On April 10 2011 09:33 Hierarch wrote:
To all the people saying the NASL will not be legitimized or not having Koreans is bad for the league growth and viewership etc... how are the people going to react when they start losing? Is it going to derail the wins and accomplishments of the foreigners like in TSL? All these factors in an online tournament hurt the koreans, and they end up giving half ass efforts or they play worse than people know they are capable of. If you want to see the koreans just to have koreans in the tournament then I guess this is acceptable but for the people who want to see the koreans compete with the foreigners in this league it will be at a handicap and that to some people will delegitimize the tournament.
A tournament every 3 months or so like the GSL World Championships would be better suited, you could have 3 teams go round robin, US/EU/KR that would be entertaining and promote nationalism and let people root for their players.
Do you honestly believe people wouldn't delegitimize the tounament for not having koreans? Even more people would say the guy just won because the good players didn't play. People will talk shit, you can't stop that, but you have to do what's best to the tournament. If westerns keep on beating the koreans, a lot of them will stop complaining.
On April 10 2011 09:30 SDream wrote:
@SKC
As an exemple, Marta, the best female soccer player in the world for many years, does not win alone and I think that this difference is crucial here. Her team, Western New York Flash, is winning and the team is american. In the same way we have some argentinos and other LA players in our soccer clubs, but they're still brazilian clubs and that's what matters.
In SC2, the player is the whole team, what would you say if an european soccer team would win the brazilian cup, isn't it wierd?
So if you want to compare both I think you need to take that into consideration.
Is it weird when Internazionale, having an starting eleven of eleven non-italians wins Serie A? Do you think there is a simple way to stop that? The problems are kinda diferent, as soccer can have a limited amount of players from another country, but then let's look at individual sports. Is it weird when Federer wins the US Open?
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At first I agreed with a lot that Catz said, but after reading Nazgul's post i changed my mind on a lot of things. Its pretty clear that in order to make these events the most competitive they can be we need to have Koreans there. And after reading Nazgul's post it does really seem completely unfair to force them to move to the US for even a chance to compete in the tournament, with maybe no chance of a payout.
As just a spectator i have no idea how much money players make, and how much sponsors give to the teams. I'll take Nazgul's word for it that there is a lot more money on the western front. It seems pretty crazy to me that Western teams can send their players to live in Korea to compete, and then last night i learned while watching the GSL that IM, boasting some of the best players in the world, doesn't even have sponsors.
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On April 10 2011 09:28 EdSlyB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 08:13 oursblanc wrote:
It really makes all the difference that to play in the GSL you have to move to Korea. This ^ Or if Koreans that wanted to play in the NASL had to move to NA. That would require a great deal of commitment from the korean players that the online qualifiers simply can't give. I think that Catz simply wants to say that he is in favor of global tournaments (i.e. tournaments where anyone can play) BUT if you want to participate in them you have to be physically present at the tournament grounds to play. This give a better chance of the local players to win and make a name for themselves since players from another regions will have an handicap. Of course that 'local' players that want to participate in another tournaments will then have the same handicap. That would be ideal if there was a global tournaments in several places like Europe, South America, Russia, North America. Peace.
This would never work. I don't think many koreans/europeans would move to NA just to participate in the NASL. Even if some might, I dont see the top dogs which draws viewers making this move. And a league containing north americans only would be pointless. I don't mean that as an insult but there's currently 20/50 north americans in the league and there's no way you can find another 30 americans which could play at a high enough level to make it exciting. You'd also need to have all 50 of them living in the same part of the country which is really unrealistic for now.
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Great interview.
You can see the passion oozing out of Catz and having these interviews just add to the cause.
Thanks Josh!
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EPT
