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On April 11 2011 05:59 kaileah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:54 Deadlyfish wrote:
If Koreans started really BMing and showing some personality i'd actually love to have them in the NASL. The reason i love NA (and EU) players is because they have some personality. (they dont need to BM, but just have a bit more personality)
The games are just that more exciting when you feel connected to a player and not just his gameplay.
Bit offtopic, but still, that's one of the reasons i dont want too many Koreans in the league.
It may be a cultural thing, but i just find western players to have a lot more charisma, and they're games are just more exciting, and not because the actual games are better.
did you not see ogs zenio backhand idra as a celebration after eliminating him? ogs mc being borderline arrogant / cocky / pissing on everyone else? ogs ensnare getting mad because idra called him a faggot? (insert more anti-idra sentiment). MarineKingPrime versus MVP? Genius pissing on fruitdealer by putting him into the 4gate group of death? theres a lot of bming and drama in gsl if you follow the scene.
First of all, IdrA was involved in most of these incidents, i wouldn't really call that "Korean players"
There might've been some drama between the Koreans, but it's very little, and it's very lackluster.
In interviews you can see this as well, the Koreans are just too nice and bland, which I dislike. This is totally a personal thing though, i can see how some people might not like all the drama 
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Liquid Nazgul owned all you anti Korean crowd.
What it comes down to root cats feelings is not about growth, what it really boils down to is this "I can't compete against the best, so make the competition easier, so I have a better chance of winning"
That's all it is. Read Nazgul's post for you dummies that keep making excuses as to why Koreans are better.
SC2 scene is the only competitive scene where I've read people supporting segregation of competition. Wow just wow.
If you want to get as good as the Koreans, just practice and do it and stop making excuses and trying to segregate the competition.
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I get mixed feelings on this specific topic. Catz has some good points when it comes to growing the game culture in the west and getting a stronger player base to push the quality of western play up a few notches. You can only assume that you will have fewer western players enter the scene if all they see is a Korean player base coming in and snatching up all of the top dollar prize pools. Aside what people "in the know" will comment on the topic, like incontrol & nazgul, the general gamer population will probably have no clue what the average western pro-gamer makes in comparison to a pro Korean. Personally, I think the geographic makeup of a country like the US has a much larger impact on the developing player base.
The biggest obstacle I see with the forward progression of e-sports, and having it develop primarily in an online setting, is the the technological constraints (or perceived constraints by the fans). Using the most recent TSL as an example, we have a large demographic in player base. In fact, many Koreans have been knocked out before people thought they would have been. I've seen countless amounts of threads/post blaming lag as the primary reason for these results. Ignoring if lag was a factor or not, a large amount of credit is taken away to who actually wins the match. Catz touched on that at the very end of the interview. I think leagues like the GSL might have had the foresight for this constraint early on. I personally still love to give credit to whoever wins the game under any circumstance.
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Wow, those are some very illogical opinions shared by CatZ.
"I'm sure they have a lot of tournaments where there are no non-Koreans"
No...
He wants to not let Koreans compete in NA tournaments because he thinks that foreigners are barred from competing in Korean events, and that is wrong.
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"If we're not the biggest tournament in NA in a few years than we've succeeded" - recent iNcontroL interview
As far as I'm concerned that means this is just a stepping stone for bigger and better tournaments that will be more inline with what the viewers want.
I find it funny that neither side of the argument has given any thought to the future and only to the present. SC2 is only in it's infancy, and with several expansions on the way the game's popularity will only increase. This tournament IS the infrastructure that you're asking for. Heck for all you know the NASL could just be a qualifier tournament for the World Star league in a few years.
On a side note I won my placement match, woo Diamond.
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Aww come on, dudes, don't let this fall of page 1 before 20 pages. 
To be honest, I am very surprised at a lot of the discussion taking place in this thread, it seems like everyone has a really deep-set opinion on this topic.
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Well first off considering that the NASL has “North American” in its’ title makes me believe you should be a North American or at least living in North America to compete.
I feel the best analogy is a baseball analogy of the minor leagues verses the major leagues. The Koreans and the GSL are basically the major leagues, while the West, NA, and Euro are comparable to the minor leagues. You want to create a tiered system of competition like any other sport that promotes forward mobility of players/teams through the tiers, but has limited interaction between the tiers.
I mean you wouldn’t have players like Pujols, Arod, Holliday, Cliff Lee, Krod, and other come down to the minor leagues every time there is a exhibition game that pays well or for the playoffs. Those minor leagues would never get the respect or recognition the deserver and need to continue to actively seek to be better. This then discourages the lower tiers, and the fan base because why support a minor league team in your area, when they are won and controlled by players and teams from somewhere else.
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pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA
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On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
NASL isn't sponsored by the American government, the money comes from tech companies etc. with an eye on the global market. The reason why NASL is able to have such big prizes is because the sponsors know that with the best players from around the world competing, they will have an impressive global audience to target. NA doesn't have much depth yet when it comes to top players, An NA only NASL would mean a substantial drop in viewers and purchased season tickets.
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On April 10 2011 21:07 oriox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 20:44 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
I agree on catz point that to have growth in the west we need to focus on players in the west which in turn means a certain amount of exclusivity and his analogy with soccer is pretty much spot on.
It's not about exclusivity... it's about risk vs. reward. Koreans risk NOTHING to compete in NASL, foreigners risk EVERYTHING to compete in GSL. There is a very obvious gap there and Catz is pointing it out, and he is absolutely right. If all the top Koreans want to compete that's fine, but they need to come here first. Even if they sweep the tournament: 1) the games will be better with less lag issues, and 2) people won't complain when conditions are equal.
NASL and GSL are not the same type of tournament. NASL is a global Tournament, GSL however, is simply the biggest local Korean tournament.
There's still a discrepancy that Koreans can run a local tournament that dwarfs the size of everything except the worlds newest biggest global tournament... but it is what it is, Korean fans pay with their eyes and their dollars. It's not the Tournament organizers fault that they can't yet compete with "real" sports in the west, it's the fans fault. In Korea, a starcraft player can do as good as most of their professional athletes.
I want local tournaments on the scale of the GSL, but NASL had to be realistic. If they wanted competitive viewer hours they needed to provide superior content. They couldn't aim to be a local tournament.
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On April 11 2011 06:44 Tarbosh wrote:
Wow, those are some very illogical opinions shared by CatZ.
"I'm sure they have a lot of tournaments where there are no non-Koreans"
No...
He wants to not let Koreans compete in NA tournaments because he thinks that foreigners are barred from competing in Korean events, and that is wrong.
Good thing that's not what he said at all...
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On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA
You can't compare it, that's the thing.
Sure the koreans need to come here during an online tournament why exactly?
If we are talking about the GSL lets see what they all got.
-A full room for the event
- all the staff that works for it
-"soundproof" booths
-freaking camera's that are getting livestreamed over the net
-fire spewing all over the place
- 2language commentators
If NASL or any tournament got that, sure they need to go to there, but for an online tournament?
that's just acting like an asshole cockblocking the way.
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On April 12 2011 06:13 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA You can't compare it, that's the thing. Sure the koreans need to come here during an online tournament why exactly? If we are talking about the GSL lets see what they all got. -A full room for the event - all the staff that works for it -"soundproof" booths -freaking camera's that are getting livestreamed over the net -fire spewing all over the place - 2language commentators If NASL or any tournament got that, sure they need to go to there, but for an online tournament? that's just acting like an asshole cockblocking the way.
um all the production doesnt mean anything to the players, its all about the prizepool
im sure if you ask any of the players, they would give up any amount of production for bigger prize pools
and the final 16 is a live tournament, so they will have to come here
my point was, if everyone could play the qualifiers for GSL online and play out the tournament to the round of 16 , everyone would do so, but obviously thats not the case. Foreigners have to risk everything and head to korea to even qualify, let alone as making to round of 16.
all that stuff that GSL has is for the viewers
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On April 12 2011 06:34 mcleod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 06:13 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA You can't compare it, that's the thing. Sure the koreans need to come here during an online tournament why exactly? If we are talking about the GSL lets see what they all got. -A full room for the event - all the staff that works for it -"soundproof" booths -freaking camera's that are getting livestreamed over the net -fire spewing all over the place - 2language commentators If NASL or any tournament got that, sure they need to go to there, but for an online tournament? that's just acting like an asshole cockblocking the way. um all the production doesnt mean anything to the players, its all about the prizepool im sure if you ask any of the players, they would give up any amount of production for bigger prize pools and the final 16 is a live tournament, so they will have to come here my point was, if everyone could play the qualifiers for GSL online and play out the tournament to the round of 16 , everyone would do so, but obviously thats not the case. Foreigners have to risk everything and head to korea to even qualify, let alone as making to round of 16. all that stuff that GSL has is for the viewers
A low production tournament wont draw as many viewers as a high production one. Sponsors will put more money for prize pools in the tournament with most viewers.
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On April 12 2011 06:53 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 06:34 mcleod wrote:On April 12 2011 06:13 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA You can't compare it, that's the thing. Sure the koreans need to come here during an online tournament why exactly? If we are talking about the GSL lets see what they all got. -A full room for the event - all the staff that works for it -"soundproof" booths -freaking camera's that are getting livestreamed over the net -fire spewing all over the place - 2language commentators If NASL or any tournament got that, sure they need to go to there, but for an online tournament? that's just acting like an asshole cockblocking the way. um all the production doesnt mean anything to the players, its all about the prizepool im sure if you ask any of the players, they would give up any amount of production for bigger prize pools and the final 16 is a live tournament, so they will have to come here my point was, if everyone could play the qualifiers for GSL online and play out the tournament to the round of 16 , everyone would do so, but obviously thats not the case. Foreigners have to risk everything and head to korea to even qualify, let alone as making to round of 16. all that stuff that GSL has is for the viewers A low production tournament wont draw as many viewers as a high production one. Sponsors will put more money for prize pools in the tournament with most viewers.
um ya obviously, wasnt saying tournaments shouldnt have any production
players dont worry about production though, its the prizepool that matters to them
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On April 12 2011 06:57 mcleod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 06:53 LagT_T wrote:On April 12 2011 06:34 mcleod wrote:On April 12 2011 06:13 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA You can't compare it, that's the thing. Sure the koreans need to come here during an online tournament why exactly? If we are talking about the GSL lets see what they all got. -A full room for the event - all the staff that works for it -"soundproof" booths -freaking camera's that are getting livestreamed over the net -fire spewing all over the place - 2language commentators If NASL or any tournament got that, sure they need to go to there, but for an online tournament? that's just acting like an asshole cockblocking the way. um all the production doesnt mean anything to the players, its all about the prizepool im sure if you ask any of the players, they would give up any amount of production for bigger prize pools and the final 16 is a live tournament, so they will have to come here my point was, if everyone could play the qualifiers for GSL online and play out the tournament to the round of 16 , everyone would do so, but obviously thats not the case. Foreigners have to risk everything and head to korea to even qualify, let alone as making to round of 16. all that stuff that GSL has is for the viewers A low production tournament wont draw as many viewers as a high production one. Sponsors will put more money for prize pools in the tournament with most viewers. um ya obviously, wasnt saying tournaments shouldnt have any production players dont worry about production though, its the prizepool that matters to them
It seems you fail to see the connection. Players want high production tournaments because that means that the prize pools are high. There is a correlation between production cost and prize pool (there are exceptions tho), and they know about it.
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um no i dont fail to see the connection
both go hand in hand
but as a player looking to go to a tournament, i dont check what kind of production they have. I look at the prize pool.
theres no argument here, clearly connected and you'll almost always see a high production/with large prize pool
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I disagree with pretty much everything catz said here. First of all he seems to think "the west" is america, which it isnt. He then goes on to talk about the exclusivity of GSL and how it isnt open to us, but the GSL is a LAN type tournament (like MLG or IEM) and they do so much to help non-koreans out. They provide housing and internet, even gave some foreigners free entrance into code A. Catz also points out that players may lack motivation to train for it because players like MC are in it. To me, if you consider yourself a great player you should want to play against the best, this should inspire you not demotivate you. As for the EPS, he should take a look at the prize pool and viewing figures, it is small fry compared to what the NASL will be. Saying that everyone who wants to compete in it should move to america is just not viable if you want the best foreigners (which they do) to compete. This is for a variety of reasons, some have jobs, are in school or would have to leave girlfriends, wives, family behind which is really tough.
In his example of football (yeah im not using that S word >.<) the reason america have improved is because their top players come to play and compete in the top leagues of europe. Just like the major south american nations do, it has nothing to do with the growth of domestic leagues.
Personally i felt the NASL went too heavy on american players, they should have accepted more Korean and Europeans. I would have taken 15 from NA, 15 from EU, 15 from KR and 5 wildcards (like artosis and grubby).
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All I know is that the international tournaments that include Koreans have been so much more exciting than ones segregated to either group. I personally think FXOpens and TSL have just been more interesting to watch . . . and I can't wait to see NASL.
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EPT
