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On April 12 2011 07:09 mcleod wrote:
um no i dont fail to see the connection
both go hand in hand
but as a player looking to go to a tournament, i dont check what kind of production they have. I look at the prize pool.
theres no argument here, clearly connected and you'll almost always see a high production/with large prize pool
I'm sorry if I was blunt, wasn't my intention, I was only worried about the phrase "im sure if you ask any of the players, they would give up any amount of production for bigger prize pools"
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Australia8532 Posts
Everything i wanted to say Nazgul managed to put into better words than i could ever do; the constant reference to the infrastructure and evolution being just so far ahead of the foreigner scene i think is a bit of an exaggeration. The GSL is the mainstay of Korea, outside of this there are very few tournaments far between that you hear about - this is a common complaint from foreigners that go there. If you don't crack GSL you are pretty much screwed.
By including Koreans in the NASL, you are globalising Starcraft even further; it is a step in the right direction. The most annoying thing about BW was the specific Korean focus - why not try take steps towards bridging the divide and putting people into the same player pool. I understand the point about these online qualifiers/tournaments but have a look at TSL where a lot of the Koreans got dominated and that was all online, on the NA server.
At the end of the day NASL isn't a NPO looking to cultivate talent in NA; it is attempting to be a world class tournament that needs to bring in the sponsors and satisfy the community. The community wants Koreans to be involved - the majority have said so; the biggest complaints are from the progamers that have to face them and i understand this, it just seems to cheapen the deal a bit if they were excluded.
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Hah!
CatZ: Do you agree with me AskJoshy?
JoshSuth: I do, to the extent of..
CatZ: Oh c'mon, don't pussy out -do you agree with me?
Awesome.
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On April 10 2011 15:28 alexhard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
Catz referred to EPS as being a good model, as Germany is a great country for eSports.
EPS is not a great model and there is no reason why you would want to emulate it. How has EPS grown the German e-sports scene? Where are the team houses and media attention? If you're going to use something as an example to be emulated, at least make sure it has succeeded...
Well, I'd go as far and say without the EPS teams like SK & mouz would maybe not exist.
And certainly not the IEM.
The ESL team started small and grew to an international company. But it's roots are still German and IEM is getting media attention here.
But I have to agree with you. There might be some people who watch only EPS and no international SC2. But to my knowledge there are more people who watch international tournaments and watch no EPS.
From my personal experience I can say that I know ~15people personally and no one watches EPS. But all watch some GSL / MLG / IEM. Sure we sometimes see an open stream "Hey X is playing Y on the EPS stream atm". Or we discuss the results. But the audience seems to be much smaller compared to the SC2 interested people here in Germany.
I think the IPL is a good thing for NA. It could take the place of the EPS. Small, "local" players only. But the audience will be smaller compared to a NASL. But as long as the organizers are fine with that it would certainly help imho.
On April 10 2011 15:47 manicshock wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 10:37 Sami` wrote:
Also from a sponsor point of view:
Worldwide exposure > North American exposure
If we want to keep it real in terms of what really grows esports in a country its good sponsorship. Maybe you didn't watch the same video I did, but he specifically brought up Socke and about his team's sponsors. They don't care if he wins MLG which would be an impressive accomplishment, but if he wins EPS it's awesome and that's what they want as I assume their target audience would be the german people.
But that's a very isolated case, because the sponsor is a German company which only operates in Germany (it's a German newegg.com basically).
Sponsors like Steelseries, Razer, & co with international markets as target audience would certainly favour winning MLG over winning EPS.
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On April 12 2011 06:34 mcleod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 06:13 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA You can't compare it, that's the thing. Sure the koreans need to come here during an online tournament why exactly? If we are talking about the GSL lets see what they all got. -A full room for the event - all the staff that works for it -"soundproof" booths -freaking camera's that are getting livestreamed over the net -fire spewing all over the place - 2language commentators If NASL or any tournament got that, sure they need to go to there, but for an online tournament? that's just acting like an asshole cockblocking the way. um all the production doesnt mean anything to the players, its all about the prizepool im sure if you ask any of the players, they would give up any amount of production for bigger prize pools and the final 16 is a live tournament, so they will have to come here my point was, if everyone could play the qualifiers for GSL online and play out the tournament to the round of 16 , everyone would do so, but obviously thats not the case. Foreigners have to risk everything and head to korea to even qualify, let alone as making to round of 16. all that stuff that GSL has is for the viewers
Why are you whining about this still? NASL is online, GSL is offline. Get that through your head. There isn't some conspiracy by Koreans to screw foreigners over. Relative to how long esports has existed, Korea has a history of televised games with a live audience.
Yes, it happens to make it difficult for non-Koreans to compete in it. But to make the NASL equally prohibitive out of sheer SPITE is just a childish mentality. Catz can whine about how unfair it is, but fact is if you objectively look at his skill level, he does not have what it takes to make it in GSL anyways. As said before, if you are good enough, you can do it: aka look at Jinro. Look at Idra.
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On April 11 2011 06:05 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:59 kaileah wrote:On April 11 2011 05:54 Deadlyfish wrote:
If Koreans started really BMing and showing some personality i'd actually love to have them in the NASL. The reason i love NA (and EU) players is because they have some personality. (they dont need to BM, but just have a bit more personality)
The games are just that more exciting when you feel connected to a player and not just his gameplay.
Bit offtopic, but still, that's one of the reasons i dont want too many Koreans in the league.
It may be a cultural thing, but i just find western players to have a lot more charisma, and they're games are just more exciting, and not because the actual games are better.
did you not see ogs zenio backhand idra as a celebration after eliminating him? ogs mc being borderline arrogant / cocky / pissing on everyone else? ogs ensnare getting mad because idra called him a faggot? (insert more anti-idra sentiment). MarineKingPrime versus MVP? Genius pissing on fruitdealer by putting him into the 4gate group of death? theres a lot of bming and drama in gsl if you follow the scene. First of all, IdrA was involved in most of these incidents, i wouldn't really call that "Korean players" There might've been some drama between the Koreans, but it's very little, and it's very lackluster. In interviews you can see this as well, the Koreans are just too nice and bland, which I dislike. This is totally a personal thing though, i can see how some people might not like all the drama 
No foreigners have anything on FireBatHero or Hiya. I've actually never seen a foreigner being particularly colorful. You must also hate most Eastern Europeans or a guy like white Ra. As a matter of fact, beside Naniwa and Idra, there's not much drama going on. But i mean, if you are looking for a bunch of brats taking the piss at each others, go back, and sit in your high school class. I don't recall any sports but boxing that include much trash talk.
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Funniest thing in all of this is CatZ has nothing to say back to anyone with regards to this thread.
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On April 12 2011 10:43 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 06:34 mcleod wrote:On April 12 2011 06:13 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA You can't compare it, that's the thing. Sure the koreans need to come here during an online tournament why exactly? If we are talking about the GSL lets see what they all got. -A full room for the event - all the staff that works for it -"soundproof" booths -freaking camera's that are getting livestreamed over the net -fire spewing all over the place - 2language commentators If NASL or any tournament got that, sure they need to go to there, but for an online tournament? that's just acting like an asshole cockblocking the way. um all the production doesnt mean anything to the players, its all about the prizepool im sure if you ask any of the players, they would give up any amount of production for bigger prize pools and the final 16 is a live tournament, so they will have to come here my point was, if everyone could play the qualifiers for GSL online and play out the tournament to the round of 16 , everyone would do so, but obviously thats not the case. Foreigners have to risk everything and head to korea to even qualify, let alone as making to round of 16. all that stuff that GSL has is for the viewers Why are you whining about this still? NASL is online, GSL is offline. Get that through your head. There isn't some conspiracy by Koreans to screw foreigners over. Relative to how long esports has existed, Korea has a history of televised games with a live audience. Yes, it happens to make it difficult for non-Koreans to compete in it. But to make the NASL equally prohibitive out of sheer SPITE is just a childish mentality. Catz can whine about how unfair it is, but fact is if you objectively look at his skill level, he does not have what it takes to make it in GSL anyways. As said before, if you are good enough, you can do it: aka look at Jinro. Look at Idra.
the point is if you actually had to live in NA to compete in NA competitions that would better help out the North American scene. Having top koreans come and live here and compete in NASL MLG and any other tournament would benefit everyone, ie starting there own pro house here, playing on NA server, rather than just flying out for a weekend winning 50k and heading back to korea.
NASL is great no debate, but it could be better for NA e-sports
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I somewhat agree. A better example would be we take our world series champs and demand to go play in Japans world series. We would rotflstomp them every single year and take all their prize money home. Same with basketball if we took our teams to Europe. Koreans are the best - train the best play the best - and stunting our rewards for our players our players will never get better or just quit the scene since no money is in it with top Koreans winning everything which could cripple home grown esports.
That said: US is like the united nations. We have people from everywhere and it's in our national character to be open to everyone. Our baseball teams are loaded with South and Central Americans and even some Japanese. Our Basketball team have Africans, Chinese and Europeans. But all this was after league was established...
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On April 12 2011 10:43 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 06:34 mcleod wrote:On April 12 2011 06:13 Assirra wrote:On April 12 2011 02:59 mcleod wrote:
pretty much totally agree with catz
if you want to compete in the NASL, you should have to live in NA bottom line
you wanna win money from NA, come support NA
no problem with koreans playing or anyone for that matter but if you wanna play and win a ton of money you have to support where this money is coming from. would be amazing if a few koreans decided " hey, i think we can go to NA and win everything, lets move a small team over, start a pro house, maybe even add in some NA players "
the argument of " well the top 16 is a lan" doesnt really cut it, if you could guarantee me top 16 in gsl before i actually have to fly over, obviously anyone would go
point is this NASL will help things grow in NA no doubt about that, but it would be even more beneficial to the NA esports scene if the competitors actually had to reside in NA You can't compare it, that's the thing. Sure the koreans need to come here during an online tournament why exactly? If we are talking about the GSL lets see what they all got. -A full room for the event - all the staff that works for it -"soundproof" booths -freaking camera's that are getting livestreamed over the net -fire spewing all over the place - 2language commentators If NASL or any tournament got that, sure they need to go to there, but for an online tournament? that's just acting like an asshole cockblocking the way. um all the production doesnt mean anything to the players, its all about the prizepool im sure if you ask any of the players, they would give up any amount of production for bigger prize pools and the final 16 is a live tournament, so they will have to come here my point was, if everyone could play the qualifiers for GSL online and play out the tournament to the round of 16 , everyone would do so, but obviously thats not the case. Foreigners have to risk everything and head to korea to even qualify, let alone as making to round of 16. all that stuff that GSL has is for the viewers Why are you whining about this still? NASL is online, GSL is offline. Get that through your head. There isn't some conspiracy by Koreans to screw foreigners over. Relative to how long esports has existed, Korea has a history of televised games with a live audience. Yes, it happens to make it difficult for non-Koreans to compete in it. But to make the NASL equally prohibitive out of sheer SPITE is just a childish mentality. Catz can whine about how unfair it is, but fact is if you objectively look at his skill level, he does not have what it takes to make it in GSL anyways. As said before, if you are good enough, you can do it: aka look at Jinro. Look at Idra.
I don't think CatZ was really arguing that NASL should be made equally prohibitive out of sheer spite. More so I think he was arguing that there needs to be more offline tournaments in North America, and saying he wishes NASL was held in an offline format for that reason (although not necessarily saying huge online tournaments shouldn't be held either).
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EPT
