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On April 10 2011 09:51 dtz wrote:
But why are the US more interested in football/bastketball/baseball and not other sports. It is probably because they are one of the best in the world at it ( or at least have the most exciting/best league)
Football baseball and basketball are more popular in the US because they could afford it. Soccer is the world's most popular sport because it's cheap.
What sport are the US interested in , in which they don't have top players or a top league in the world in that particular sport? I can't think of any at that top of my head whereas for many other countries, being good in that particular sport is not a prerequisite. Many countries love soccer and have soccer as their no1 sport although their countries are absolutely awful at it
The MLB, NBA and NFL are certainly the target destination for professionals in that sport. The MLS isn't.
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On April 10 2011 09:52 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 09:49 Swarmed wrote:
You wouldn't even be able to field 50 US players at a high enough level that would really attract large amounts of viewers. Case closed right there imo. That's why it would be NA + EU and any korean who wanted to play abroad and make a serious commitment to play in the NASL.
So basically EU guys can play long distance but, Koreans can't. In what world does that make any sense. So you either shut yourself off to only NA and have everyone move to NA or you open it up to everyone. Singling out Koreans you are just saying, we don't mind getting beat by these guys over here(EU), but we don't want to get beat by those guys over there(KOR).
It's so silly it's hard to take seriously.
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I'm having a hard time following his line of thought. All this time I've been thinking the different communities from all countries coming together and competing in big tournaments is about the best thing that could possibly have happened for e-sports, but this guy apparently takes the stance that limiting competition to within certain arbitrary geographical parameters is going to promote competition and the scene as a whole. I understand that it might increase incentive somewhat if the competition was softer, but that doesn't necessarily mean players are magically going to get better within the region. At one point he even says that there should be a bigger risk associated with participating in tournaments, which to me sounds like it would probably lessen the incentive to play full time as a pro.
And what about the fans? Surely, most people are more likely to pay up for matches between really great players, rather than mediocre players that just so happen to live in a certain country. To be honest I don't really see myself spectating a swedish starleague even if such a thing existed, and I would dare say sweden has a stronger pool of players than USA.
Then there are all the great players living in nations where e-sports are still extremely undeveloped, what would happen if all the big competitions didn't allow brat_ok, white-ra and moonglade to participate without them actually moving to a foreign country half across the world?
Oh and besides, foreigners seem to be defeating koreans fairly consistently now. Idra, Jinro and huk are all code S calibre players but we don't see them dominating foreign competition..
Basically, if nasl or the other one (IGN?) wants to be restricted to north americans I'm fine with that, I just wouldn't watch it and I think he should cut out the 'promoting e-sports' crap, because I somehow doubt that this guy is really looking out for e-sports.
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On April 10 2011 09:59 SDream wrote:@SKC I know zero about tennis, let's move to our marathons instead  I know a lot of brazilians that don't like all these africans winning "our" São Silvestre Marathon, but at least they are here in Brazil, in a foreign place/culture/etc so I think it makes it interesting for everyone, if there was a 100% of chance of a brazilian winning it I wouldn't watch it :D So yeah, I can agree with Koreans on a North American League, specially because I wouldn't like to see a brazilian being stoped from trying it as well. But at least make them move there? o.o Idk if I like this aproach.
What about Canadians? Europeans? Just koreans? Why? Making it a small tournament just from people in California doesn't make sense, does it? I think this point is basically all over this thread already.
It's hard making comparisons with real sports, because you can't participate in multiple leagues because it's physically impossible, I only made that one because Catz made the same one, but his didn't make any sense at all.
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On April 10 2011 09:55 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 09:44 Hierarch wrote:On April 10 2011 09:34 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 09:33 Hierarch wrote:
To all the people saying the NASL will not be legitimized or not having Koreans is bad for the league growth and viewership etc... how are the people going to react when they start losing? Is it going to derail the wins and accomplishments of the foreigners like in TSL? All these factors in an online tournament hurt the koreans, and they end up giving half ass efforts or they play worse than people know they are capable of. If you want to see the koreans just to have koreans in the tournament then I guess this is acceptable but for the people who want to see the koreans compete with the foreigners in this league it will be at a handicap and that to some people will delegitimize the tournament.
A tournament every 3 months or so like the GSL World Championships would be better suited, you could have 3 teams go round robin, US/EU/KR that would be entertaining and promote nationalism and let people root for their players. Do you honestly believe people wouldn't delegitimize the tounament for not having koreans? Even more people would say the guy just won because the good players didn't play. People will talk shit, you can't stop that, but you have to do what's best to the tournament. If westerns keep on beating the koreans, a lot of them will stop complaining. Why would not having koreans delegitimize a tournament? If no koreans were participating you judge it based on who is participating, not who could have been participating, people don't judge GSL based on if Dimaga or KiWiKaKi or Naniwa would have been participating, they judge it on who played. Why do we have to compare ourselves to koreans 100% of the time? This isn't BW. I feel like having a foreigner league wouldn't be a bad thing and would be equally popular, honestly if those 10 koreans weren't there and there were 10 more top NA and/or EU players in NASL I guarantee the number of people who would have not watched at all would be very few. The main problem with having koreans play under these conditions is it's going to cause a lot of "woulda, coulda, shoulda." Because everything is always compared to a Gold Standard, in every discipline in life. In this case, the gold standard for SC2 is korea, and not just in player skill regards, but also in production quality, sponsors and money involved, and managerial and social aspects of e-sports. It becomes only logical to compare, then, with koreans. I know that if I could watch a GSL vod between SlayerS_Alicia and oGs_TOP or a NASL vod between KiWiKaKi and Slush, I will watch GSL vod every possible time, since I expect that vod to have 3 times or more the quality of NASL, not just because of the players, but because of how GSL just IS. Having koreans is beneficial for the NASL. Try some regional minor leagues sponsored by money raised by the NASL with local players, keep the NASL a larger global event, that way it makes a LOT more sense.
Basing your viewing on quality and production and not on players isn't possible to argue at this point since NASL hasn't started, but I agree with the golden standard thing, I think my main point is that I feel a world tournament that would be held offline like GSL WC would be more beneficial for the korea vs the world scenarios and let NASL be for another competition with some bias to foreigners like GSL is biased towards koreans, and by biased I mean in conditions to play in that tournament.
Also one other thing, I would personally rather watch KiWiKaKi vs Slush over the other matchup because the game will be of high quality due to top end players in both matchups and I enjoy watching foreigners play more so than koreans so it comes to production and preference like I said NASL hasn't started so we can't judge their production yet.
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this thread is just beating a dead horse, good luck in your guys' debate
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On April 10 2011 09:49 Swarmed wrote:
You wouldn't even be able to field 50 US players at a high enough level that would really attract large amounts of viewers. Case closed right there imo.
new viewers wouldnt even know the difference. The point is to reach new audiences.
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I wholeheartedly agree with CatZ on this issue. I don't think anyone can really agree that Koreans are naturally superior at a video game than non-Korean people. They have their infrastructure in place already from the years and years of BW play.
To disagree with grungust above me here, I think tons of the foreigner players have as much discipline as the Koreans do to hold down that kind of 10-12 hour practice schedule that they need to be the best of the best. But even with coaching and streaming and the nickle and dime $100-200 tournaments that there are 3 of per day, that's just not enough money for players to fully take the jump, pack up their belongings and move into a player house.
You take players with great potential, such as TL's Mr.Bitter. He is a mid masters player and has spent a ridiculous amount of time and money trying to teach and learn from pros because that's the only outlet that he has. If we can really establish a tournament, whether it be NASL/IGN/Dreamhack/IEM with fantastic prize pools and real, and I mean REAL incentive, these houses would really get going and the foreigners could play on the Korean level in a fairly short period of time.
Instead, people that are on the cusp of being pro players won't take that big plunge into quitting their day job and just practicing 4-5 hours a day because it's too risky and could potentially ruin their life.
Give it a couple years. Let NA and EU establish their bases and their player houses. Give them some incentive to work THAT hard without worry about MC taking 3 hours out of his day, rolling over everyone, taking the fat paycheck and demoralizing players that have ridiculous potential that they'll never realize because of how big that risk really is.
Sure, the games won't be the best at first. But, that is just at first. We will be good enough to play with the Koreans on any stage as long as we get a chance to really plant our feet and dedicate our lives to playing.
My two cents. Probably said before. Sorry.
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On April 10 2011 09:58 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 09:56 Hierarch wrote:On April 10 2011 09:52 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 09:44 Hierarch wrote:On April 10 2011 09:34 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 09:33 Hierarch wrote:
To all the people saying the NASL will not be legitimized or not having Koreans is bad for the league growth and viewership etc... how are the people going to react when they start losing? Is it going to derail the wins and accomplishments of the foreigners like in TSL? All these factors in an online tournament hurt the koreans, and they end up giving half ass efforts or they play worse than people know they are capable of. If you want to see the koreans just to have koreans in the tournament then I guess this is acceptable but for the people who want to see the koreans compete with the foreigners in this league it will be at a handicap and that to some people will delegitimize the tournament.
A tournament every 3 months or so like the GSL World Championships would be better suited, you could have 3 teams go round robin, US/EU/KR that would be entertaining and promote nationalism and let people root for their players. Do you honestly believe people wouldn't delegitimize the tounament for not having koreans? Even more people would say the guy just won because the good players didn't play. People will talk shit, you can't stop that, but you have to do what's best to the tournament. If westerns keep on beating the koreans, a lot of them will stop complaining. Why would not having koreans delegitimize a tournament? If no koreans were participating you judge it based on who is participating, not who could have been participating, people don't judge GSL based on if Dimaga or KiWiKaKi or Naniwa would have been participating, they judge it on who played. Why do we have to compare ourselves to koreans 100% of the time? This isn't BW. I feel like having a foreigner league wouldn't be a bad thing and would be equally popular, honestly if those 10 koreans weren't there and there were 10 more top NA and/or EU players in NASL I guarantee the number of people who would have not watched at all would be very few. The main problem with having koreans play under these conditions is it's going to cause a lot of "woulda, coulda, shoulda." I didn't said it does, I said people would say that it does, in response to you saying that they will do it now, which implies they wouldn't if the koreans were participating. Keys diference. Then I said "People will talk shit, you can't stop that". My opinion? It's not about delegitimizing or whatever, it's about bringing the best show for the viewers, it's about being fair, not excluding just one nation just because they are good, it's about giving chance for the western community to prove itself against Korea. I agree with you on this, but why are we making 100% of the effort to get koreans to integrate with the rest of the world? While korea insists on "you must be in korea to participate in our tournament" it's not feasible for the vast majority of people to do that, I feel like the foreigner community should have it's chance against korea but I don't feel this is the best conduit to achieve that goal. MLG insists on "you must be in X location to participate". Dreamhack does that too. That's the diference of online and offline tournaments. Everyone agrees that offline is better despite this problem, but NASL offline is unreasonable. You seriously can't punish them from doing an offline tournament. Local online tournament? No such thing in Korea, as far as I know. It's not about making an effort to integrate, it's about not making an effort to separate.
Fair enough, you make good points and I can't make a good argument against the "onlineness" of NASL, so I'll just sit back and hope NASL succeeds like I hope it will :D
On April 10 2011 10:00 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 09:52 Hierarch wrote:On April 10 2011 09:49 Swarmed wrote:
You wouldn't even be able to field 50 US players at a high enough level that would really attract large amounts of viewers. Case closed right there imo. That's why it would be NA + EU and any korean who wanted to play abroad and make a serious commitment to play in the NASL. So basically EU guys can play long distance but, Koreans can't. In what world does that make any sense. So you either shut yourself off to only NA and have everyone move to NA or you open it up to everyone. Singling out Koreans you are just saying, we don't mind getting beat by these guys over here(EU), but we don't want to get beat by those guys over there(KOR). It's so silly it's hard to take seriously.
EU to NA latency is far better than KR to NA as pointed out by Jinro. But like I say above the fact that it's online means that you can't disqualify koreans, I personally just hope that one day Foreigner esports gets to the point that it can be on par with korean esports.
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On April 10 2011 10:02 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 09:49 Swarmed wrote:
You wouldn't even be able to field 50 US players at a high enough level that would really attract large amounts of viewers. Case closed right there imo. new viewers wouldnt even know the difference. The point is to reach new audiences.
I seriously doubt that. The point is to attract the biggest amount of people. If they lose 20k viewers because their event is awful, but get 10k new ones because it's pretty and they don't understand anything anyway, it's a failure. What they are trying is keeping those 20k and getting 10k. I really doubt they would have the same amount of viewers if they only got players living in California. Same for sponsors.
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is he crying o.o, or stoned
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On April 10 2011 10:06 anonmice wrote:
is he crying o.o, or stoned
He was sick, he explained on his stream when someone asked him if he was stoned in the interview.
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On April 10 2011 10:03 Treetop wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with CatZ on this issue. I don't think anyone can really agree that Koreans are naturally superior at a video game than non-Korean people. They have their infrastructure in place already from the years and years of BW play.
To disagree with grungust above me here, I think tons of the foreigner players have as much discipline as the Koreans do to hold down that kind of 10-12 hour practice schedule that they need to be the best of the best. But even with coaching and streaming and the nickle and dime $100-200 tournaments that there are 3 of per day, that's just not enough money for players to fully take the jump, pack up their belongings and move into a player house.
You take players with great potential, such as TL's Mr.Bitter. He is a mid masters player and has spent a ridiculous amount of time and money trying to teach and learn from pros because that's the only outlet that he has. If we can really establish a tournament, whether it be NASL/IGN/Dreamhack/IEM with fantastic prize pools and real, and I mean REAL incentive, these houses would really get going and the foreigners could play on the Korean level in a fairly short period of time.
Instead, people that are on the cusp of being pro players won't take that big plunge into quitting their day job and just practicing 4-5 hours a day because it's too risky and could potentially ruin their life.
Give it a couple years. Let NA and EU establish their bases and their player houses. Give them some incentive to work THAT hard without worry about MC taking 3 hours out of his day, rolling over everyone, taking the fat paycheck and demoralizing players that have ridiculous potential that they'll never realize because of how big that risk really is.
Sure, the games won't be the best at first. But, that is just at first. We will be good enough to play with the Koreans on any stage as long as we get a chance to really plant our feet and dedicate our lives to playing.
My two cents. Probably said before. Sorry.
How much does a korean that just moved to a teamhouse makes? Why can he do that while we must first make a big profit before being able to do that? Isn't this the fact we must change to be able to practice as much as them? Like Nazgul said, people overestimate the conditions in Korea, and underestimate their sacrifices.
On April 10 2011 10:10 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 10:05 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 10:02 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 09:49 Swarmed wrote:
You wouldn't even be able to field 50 US players at a high enough level that would really attract large amounts of viewers. Case closed right there imo. new viewers wouldnt even know the difference. The point is to reach new audiences. I seriously doubt that. The point is to attract the biggest amount of people. If they lose 20k viewers because their event is awful, but get 10k new ones because it's pretty and they don't understand anything anyway, it's a failure. What they are trying is keeping those 20k and getting 10k. I really doubt they would have the same amount of viewers if they only got players living in California. Same for sponsors. who says they would lose viewers? If you wont watch an event because 5 or 6 players arent in it then you probably didnt watch starcraft for anything but those players anyways. If you dont think watching players like morrow, idra, jinro and naniwa for example is good enough then nothing ever will in the western SC 2 scene. Small events that are based in states aren't necessarily what I mean, even then they wouldnt need nearly as many viewers to be a success. A non korean tournament could easily be a success.
It's not 5 or 6, making it an offline in California would lose 30. Or more. Do you think europeans would all move to US because of the tournament? What about East Coast? Canadians? Or are you sugesting making the koreans play in the US but the rest at their home, just because they are koreans?
Edit. This was aimed at the post below, he edited it out as a doube post, I don't know why.
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double post
delete please!
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I agree with CatZ to the extent that its unfair that there is no barrier to entry for Koreans to participate in NA events because they are held online but non-Koreans have a huge barrier to entry for the GSL because its live in studio.
At the end of the day though thats down to the tournement organizers who really should be putting on live events. I actually think its a little ridiculous to have tournements with such a large prize pool being even partly online - how are you going to make sure the player is who he says he is? it would be ridiculously easy for a team house to just rotate in the best player for a given matchup, it just ruins the integrity of competitive play.
All that said - I want to see Korean participation and spectators who put up their cash to watch tournements will be the only reason you get such high prize pools in the first place so just be happy that you have it at all.
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lol i love the intensity of whereever catz is at. I hear at least 2 sc2 games going on in his background. I never thought of his argument, but it really does make sense in a global sense.
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We are also in a transition period in terms of how people like to view their entertainment/sports. Years ago the majority of people would rather go and see an event live and experiencing it that way, but in more recent times; a much larger percentage of people are deciding to watch at home on their big HDTV's (In terms of Starcraft, watching a stream instead.). At home you can watch mutiple games at once; with are the advanced features like pause and record (Same can be said with Starcraft). This makes the entertainment experience far greater at home than it used to be.
eSports is a definite winner because of this. With the modern eras focus so much on making the world more digital, advancements in streaming technololgy and social media will only make eSports that much more popular with casual and first time viewers. Starcraft 2 was released at a perfect time, with sites like Justin.tv, Ustream, Twitter and Facebook being in the normal search rotation for the average person, the chance of them seeing and knowing about SC2 is so much greater.
Will the western world ever have crowds as big as Korean BW events? No one knows, but this is a great time to be an eSports fan, and not just for Starcraft.
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You know I used to always think that koreans should be apart of every tournament, just because they are the best in the world, but after this interview I see things in a different light for sure. We do need our own leagues, and I think if this happens it will just make the global events that much better. If people want to move here to compete all the power to them.
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IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol.
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EPT
