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On April 10 2011 10:42 kedinik wrote:
That was a bunch of rambling xenophobia that boils down to THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!
Did you even watch it? How does saying that he wants to build the NA scene or the European scene boil down to xenophobia? He even said he wouldn't even care if they played if they put in the effort to come over and play, but them joining this huge tournament that's online doesn't do as much to grow the scene as if it was just NA or just European stuff
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is ROOTCatZ the same person as iG.Catz in Brood War days?
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Dream scenario that can help western esports grow:
Create the most lavish country-club, located in beautiful sunny California, and open to NA and European players and teams. Imagine the most prestigious and beautifully designed golf country-clubs, where all the multi-million dollar homes surround the golf course.
Now remove the golf course, and in its place we'll have largest training facility in the world. I'm talking huge facility, where teams can rent their own buildings for training purposes. Each building will have computers and gaming consoles up the ass, and each building will be walking distance from each team member's home.
We'll still have the fun recreational areas like basketball courts, swimming pools, and all that. The homes, and the country-club itself, will be funded by rich oil barons, Saudi princes, and Bill gates.
Oh and the president of the country-club will be Day[9].
p.s.: a man can only wish...
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hahaha select, i hear protoss stalkers in background
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How does having only NA players grow the NA scene when there is not as much attention surrounding a NA only league? Is it better for the NA pros? Yea, more spots are open for them, and it's easier competition. Does it help to grow the NA scene? Nope, I don't think so. The tournament will get less attention, less viewers, less sponsorship etc. than a tournament that has some world class Koreans competing in it. Can anyone really give me a reason why this wouldn't be the case?
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Its only 10 koreans in the tournament and then 40 players from the west, i dont see how this is a big deal at all. Also its wierd how most of the people that dont want koreans are okay with europeans in the tournament or say Sen from taiwan, they just dont want koreans you dont hear them mentioning anything else about people from other countries just korea. To the people against koreans, what is the difference to you between say, Sen from taiwan being in this tournament and a Korean progamer.
Also like liquid nazgul said its not like koreans have it super easy over there are far more players in the west playing on teams for salaries then their are in korea, they dont have the greatest infrastructure over there yet for sc2 , they have the gsl and thats it, why would you not give them the opportunity when they have the skill to show some of the most entertaining games and chose to give the opportunity to the rest of the world but exclude korea.
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On April 10 2011 10:54 Ash wrote:
is ROOTCatZ the same person as iG.Catz in Brood War days?
obviously
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On April 10 2011 10:53 Jakkerr wrote:
In my opinion catz is right,
If you really want E-sports to grow u don't invite MC and Nada and guys like that just cuz the chance that they will win the whole thing is like superbig.
In the future I think this would be the most ideal situation:
2-3 leagues under the same name with a promotion/relegation system
lets call em NASL Main and NASL 2nd
Let's say we still use the current NASL system:
50 guys 10 divisions in both leagues.
At the end there's still the regular playoffs
But how about this, the nr 10 of each division directly relegates to the 2nd league
all nr 1 from the 2nd league directly promote to the main league
nr 8 & 9 of the main league play promotion/relegation matches with nr 2 & 3 of the 2nd league
Off course you would need some kind of qualifiers for the 2nd league :>
It looks quite similar to the GSL system but with more chances to promote when ur good enough IMO.
Off course I know this is in no way doable atm but it sounded like a nice plan for the future IMO ^^
Can you explain how MC or Nada winning NASL limits esports growth in NA?
Do you think less people will be interested if a non-American wins? I actually think it bolsters the nationalism that competitive sports engenders - particularly Americans love to have an adversary to compete with, its in their blood; go watch Rocky IV if you don't know what I mean.
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On April 10 2011 10:31 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. You're joking right? It has nothing do with racism. Infact what I said could mean you would take ONLY koreans if that would grow western esports. You're coming out of left field here.
I dont think thats what you meant though.
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Meh im done with this discussion though, it always devolves into a discussion about the NASL and people that dont want koreans get accused of being racist, and the people that do want koreans get accused of being anti e-sports for the west, then the anti koreans try to prove why their not racist and the pro koreans try to prove that having koreans is the best thing to help e-sports grow its a never ending vicious cycle of arguing.
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On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are.
It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly.
But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else.
Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time.
Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams.
- - - -
Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup.
- - - -
What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them.
You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other.
Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL.
These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic.
People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous.
If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice?
People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports.
Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY.
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I think it's fine for online tournaments to allow players from all over the world competing. That's part of what makes an online tournament great. It's somewhat rare to see Korea vs NA vs EU vs SEA, and online tournaments are one way to make that happen.
Like Joshy said, MLG does fill the role of the GSL in the US. It's a live tournament and something that will encourage the growth of SC2 in NA because it is only accessible to NA players for the most part. But for something like the NASL which takes place online, I think it's an unnecessary restriction.
I think the name NASL is badly chosen. It really should be GOSL, Global Online Star League, or something that encompasses more than just one continent. For the most part the NASL doesn't physically take place on NA, because it's all online.
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I think CatZ is taking a ridiculous line on this whole thing. Right now, the Koreans make events like TSL, NASL, etc. exciting because in BW, nobody could beat Koreans, and the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners right now is still small enough, such that foreigners can consistently keep up with the Koreans. The utter domination foreigners handed out to Koreans in the TSL makes it more exciting and fun imo because there is a "Korea vs. The World" mentality going into these kinds of tournaments. Korea representation in foreigner tournaments does more to catalyze the growth of e-sports than does regional competition.
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On April 10 2011 10:53 Cathasaigh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 10:42 kedinik wrote:
That was a bunch of rambling xenophobia that boils down to THEY TOOK OUR JOBS! Did you even watch it? How does saying that he wants to build the NA scene or the European scene boil down to xenophobia? He even said he wouldn't even care if they played if they put in the effort to come over and play, but them joining this huge tournament that's online doesn't do as much to grow the scene as if it was just NA or just European stuff
Did you watch it?
"We should not allow 10 Koreans into the NASL."
"It's true, I don't want them taking my money."
It highlights his hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty that he's totally ok with letting Europeans play in the NASL, but for some reason only the Koreans should have to provide an extra commitment.
Presumably because Catz can beat most Europeans in a best of 3.
You don't grow industries by isolating them from international competition; that's a xenophobic and economically illiterate lie perpetuated by professionals who do not want to compete with stronger international rivals, pure and simple.
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On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time
16 man offline final IN USA
games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)
Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).
Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.
just my 2 cents.
Have to agree with Geoff. Restricting the big prizes to NA players only won't make world-class players develop, it will make players who are good/competitive within the confines of NA and not necessarily on a world scale - you might end up with a bunch of players who are local heroes but 2nd tier to those who play in big events with international presence. The inclusion of top international players means the standard of local play has to rise to meet it.
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On April 10 2011 10:42 kedinik wrote:
That was a bunch of rambling xenophobia that boils down to THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!
You are either trolling or didn't bother to watch the video before typing that rubbish and pushing post. There was no mention of xenophobia or losing jobs. Watch the video this time.
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On April 10 2011 11:07 mbr2321 wrote:
I think CatZ is taking a ridiculous line on this whole thing. Right now, the Koreans make events like TSL, NASL, etc. exciting because in BW, nobody could beat Koreans, and the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners right now is still small enough, such that foreigners can consistently keep up with the Koreans. The utter domination foreigners handed out to Koreans in the TSL makes it more exciting and fun imo because there is a "Korea vs. The World" mentality going into these kinds of tournaments. Korea representation in foreigner tournaments does more to catalyze the growth of e-sports than does regional competition.
It makes it intersting for you and me because we watch SC2 regularly anyway...
But it makes 0 difference to anyone who doesn't already watch, they want to attract people who don't already watch. The best way to do so is to get someone close to home for these people playing in a high level event, winning, and then making them a local celebrity.
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Catz has a good point that if you want to compete in Korea or Germany that you have to move there. I agree that the same type of parity should exist in the west. You don't risk much by playing online and making it to ro16 then catch a flight for 3 days only to see if you win or not. It's not the same hardships you face by moving to Korea to compete in GSL.
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I think part of CatZ's argument which he couldn't articulate particularly well is the fact that its hard for the foreign scene to flourish when korean players are winning all of the money. The reason for this is that the money is what makes playing full time and professionally considerable. I think that's what he was getting at with the whole "non-koreans need something to work for" thing. It takes a ton of time and effort to get good enough to be able to compete in all of these huge tournaments with the best of the best, and no matter how much players want to do that purely for their passion for the game, they simply can't if it can't support them financially. If foreign players are not able to put in the same time and effort that the koreans can then clearly they will not be as good as them and won't be until putting in the time is plausible.
CatZ is definitely right considering the way eSports is now, where most of a player's SC2 relate earnings (and in most cases ALL of their earnings) come from tournament prizes. If player's were paid salaries by their teams (and teams were supported more financially from their sponsors) then having koreans and foreigners playing in the same tournaments would be fine, and probably even beneficial, simply because tournament prizes are not relied on. So yeah at first koreans would probably win most of the big prize pool tournaments but eventually it would even out. However that is not the case right now and that is why, as CatZ said, having everyone competing in the same tournaments can be detrimental to eSports outside of South Korea.
In my mind the ultimate goal is for all players across the world to compete in the same leagues, and to be financially supported by their teams by means of a salary (just like players in any sport are). That's how it is in baseball, basketball, football. soccer, hockey, and pretty much any major sport you can think of. One thing we can do as fans to encourage this is to provide our financial support by doing things as "buying a t-shirt" like Sundance of MLG said. Buy HD passes to streams, by team/player based apparel (to the teams out there: sell team shirts!!!), buy lessons from players if you are into that, and definitely buy products from team sponsors to encourage team and player sponsorships.
P.S. Professional sports organizations and entertainment firms make most of their revenue from merchandise, which is something that eSports has been severely lacking in, although I think that is going to change soon. I think that making more things available to the community to purchase would really help the growth of eSports and would make it financially viable, and even rewarding, to become a part of as either a player, team, or sponsor. So basically, get more things out there for us fans to show our support!
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On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are. It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly. But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else. Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time. Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams. - - - - Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup. - - - - What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them. You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other. Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL. These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic. People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous. If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice? People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports. Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY.
Exactly, people like to watch they home team agaisnt play against someone else. There will always be north american players in NASL, and some will probally always qualify. Your argument doen't take in account that what is proposed, a regional league, means only players you support. You seem to be arguing against the removal of american players. I can say that there I know plenty of sports where people love rooting for their nation players against other nations.
Europe vs NA, Korea vs The World, etc, are all rivalries that help gathering support. Making it regional destroys that. Would every canadian be that excited if Stanley Cup was all canadians?
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EPT
