CatZ Discusses Home-Grown NA SC2 Scene - Page 7

On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.

Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol.

I find it odd like Incontrol mentioned in his first post: No one seemed to complain about Europeans being in. If it is just about NA, why would Europeans be allowed in?

On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:

No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said.

On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:


So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans.

On April 10 2011 10:01 hifriend wrote:
I'm having a hard time following his line of thought. All this time I've been thinking the different communities from all countries coming together and competing in big tournaments is about the best thing that could possibly have happened for e-sports, but this guy apparently takes the stance that limiting competition to within certain arbitrary geographical parameters is going to promote competition and the scene as a whole. I understand that it might increase incentive somewhat if the competition was softer, but that doesn't necessarily mean players are magically going to get better within the region. At one point he even says that there should be a bigger risk associated with participating in tournaments, which to me sounds like it would probably lessen the incentive to play full time as a pro.

And what about the fans? Surely, most people are more likely to pay up for matches between really great players, rather than mediocre players that just so happen to live in a certain country. To be honest I don't really see myself spectating a swedish starleague even if such a thing existed, and I would dare say sweden has a stronger pool of players than USA.

Then there are all the great players living in nations where e-sports are still extremely undeveloped, what would happen if all the big competitions didn't allow brat_ok, white-ra and moonglade to participate without them actually moving to a foreign country half across the world?

Oh and besides, foreigners seem to be defeating koreans fairly consistently now. Idra, Jinro and huk are all code S calibre players but we don't see them dominating foreign competition..

Basically, if nasl or the other one (IGN?) wants to be restricted to north americans I'm fine with that, I just wouldn't watch it and I think he should cut out the 'promoting e-sports' crap, because I somehow doubt that this guy is really looking out for e-sports.

On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans?

On April 10 2011 10:25 KMom wrote:
I think there's two sides to this issue, both having merit.

Keep in mind that I'm making the (fairly safe) assumption that Korea, right now, is on top for Starcraft. There's a reason why anyone fears Koreans coming into the tournaments - not because their players are naturally more skilled by any extent but because they have a much stronger infrastructure for professional gaming and players are allowed to devote much more of their time and effort into practicing and getting better at the sport. That said..

So first, we look at CatZ's argument. His thesis is basically that if we allow Koreans to simply participate in these tournaments in their offtime without having them make some sort of commitment to the tournaments to keep every top Korean pro gamer from participating at will. I don't think there's any doubt that there's going to be at least a high probability (discounting lag) that Koreans will dominate the tournament. As CatZ said, yes, foreigners can beat Koreans, especially in SC2, but there's a clear general difference in the amount of time progamers have to play in Korea as well as the variety/skill level of the practice partners they have. Thus, it will, in theory, stunt the growth of E-Sports in the foreigner world because the Koreans will just dominate, denying foreigners the opportunity to grow.

Take this as an analogy - when I picked up Brood War in about 2008-9 (I had had it for years but I was too young to care to play anything except UMS maps) I decided to play 1v1s. Needless to say, I got stomped. This is because Battle.net (1.0) had no divisions between players of differing skill level (obviously there were a lot of hackers too but that's besides the point, I think). There was no way for me to learn what was good against what because I had to play immediately against people that knew exactly what build order to go for, how to respond whenever they scouted what I was doing, and what timings were good. Simply losing every time in ways that were seemingly unrelated meant that I never really got the chance to learn. Even in iccup, the worst of players (D-, D) would probably be comparable to around Platinum or Diamond in Starcraft 2. Still, as the Bronze equivalent at Brood War, I never got the opportunity to learn.

Then came SC2 beta - I got my key from a friend who had no interest in the game, and got started. I got placed into Silver in the first phase of beta. However, the Starcraft 2 metagame was still rather new and allowed a lot of maneuvering in the strategies I could go for. So I got better. By the second phase I was a lot better and placed into platinum, and advanced into diamond days after. Being put into a game where people knew about as much as I did and playing people around my skill level meant that I was able to overcome one obstacle at a time to learn. Today, I'm in Master league. Most of you will probably respond that that doesn't mean anything, but considering where I started, I'd say its sensible to say I came a long way, and I know exactly where the credit is due.

However, I think there's another side of the coin. If we compartmentalize Starcraft 2 into "Korea" and "foreigner world", I think we're never going to achieve global success in e-sports simply because people will view the two regions as being inherently different in skill level and dedication to Starcraft. What I mean is, we need Korean players to play in foreigner tournaments to lend them legitimacy. Otherwise, people are going to question how impressive it is that IdrA (obvious bias showing here ) won the NASL when there is a whole group of people across the ocean who could, conceivably, stomp him.

If we don't allow Koreans to participate, the best North American gamers are simply going to move to Korea to play with the best to become the best. That's going to prevent E-Sports from growing in the foreigner world.

CatZ's soccer analogy works here too. Consider Tim Howard, perhaps the best American goalie today. Having started in the US, he was later recruited by Manchester United, a larger, more famous, and more "legitimate" soccer team. Being the best goalie in the United States doesn't seem to mean much when people believe that once he's put up with top quality strikers like Rooney and Messi (forgive me, I'm not extremely familiar with soccer so I'm only naming people with big names here - excuse me if they aren't the best ones I could have named) could potentially make Howard crumble. So Howard moves to England to compete with the best and prove himself.

But where does that leave the US? Nowhere. We're still seen to be stuck with a pool of players with a lower skill level, leaving much of the rest of the world to seem far superior.

The solution, ultimately, would be that we host tournaments with prize pools large enough to attract Korean gamers over to North America rather than the other way around. Until that happens, however, the foreigner world needs to prove CONSISTENTLY that they are able to win against Koreans. The only way to do that is to have Koreans play in our tournaments. Yes, they might win more than we do, but the longer we maintain our isolation, the farther ahead the Koreans are going to get.

The foreigner world is ridiculously close to the Koreans in terms of skill level now, as shown in the GSL World Championship (maybe not the individual tournament, but you get my point, I'd hope). We're only going to drift farther apart though, unless we join our competitions together. Doing this now will give our top players a chance to topple the Koreans and gain E-sports the legitimacy it needs in the West to actually become socially accepted and popular.

Thanks for reading.

No TL;DR - if you're not going to read it then just ignore this.

On April 10 2011 10:27 alexhard wrote:
If segregating competition between countries is a good thing, then it necessarily follows that segregating competition on a more granular level is also a good thing. After all, Florida has team houses! How could Wisconsin possibly grow its e-sports scene and player talent if it has to compete with Florida?! Repeat ad infinitum for cities, apartment blocks, etc.

On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.

just my 2 cents.

On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:


So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans.

On April 10 2011 10:42 emesen wrote:



99% of those people that you say WANT Koreans in every tournament also happen to be already a part of the esports scene. They want Koreans because of the high level of play that they bring and the big names and history that come with them.

In order for growth to occur in the West, in North America and Europe, people outside of the esports scene need to become involved. The best way for that to happen is for localization. Much like how cities are defined by their sports teams and their rivalries with other teams. ie, Dallas Cowboys v Philadelphia Eagles, Or how sports themselves can revolve around the players, ie Lebron James, Kobe, Federer. People may not follow golf, but they sure as hell know who Tiger Woods is.

I'll cite a sports moment that defined a nation. The Miracle on Ice. That particular incident was a defining moment for hockey in the United States because the Soviet Union was a powerhouse in the sport, but also because of the Cold War backdrop (storyline). It wouldn't bear any relevance if it was the world vs the Soviet Union, except to Soviet fans.

The esports scene to the average person is, to put it bluntly, foreign. Too much emphasis is placed on the difference between Koreans and "Foreigners" The label creates disassociation. How can a casual viewer identify with that? Is this the whole world against Korea? That galvanizes the fans of the Korean scene.

Catz is advocating an emphasis on regional play to promote the growth of the scene in those regions.