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On April 10 2011 11:09 ApBuLLet wrote:
I think part of CatZ's argument which he couldn't articulate particularly well is the fact that its hard for the foreign scene to flourish when korean players are winning all of the money. The reason for this is that the money is what makes playing full time and professionally considerable. I think that's what he was getting at with the whole "non-koreans need something to work for" thing. It takes a ton of time and effort to get good enough to be able to compete in all of these huge tournaments with the best of the best, and no matter how much players want to do that purely for their passion for the game, they simply can't if it can't support them financially. If foreign players are not able to put in the same time and effort that the koreans can then clearly they will not be as good as them and won't be until putting in the time is plausible.
CatZ is definitely right considering the way eSports is now, where most of a player's SC2 relate earnings (and in most cases ALL of their earnings) come from tournament prizes. If player's were paid salaries by their teams (and teams were supported more financially from their sponsors) then having koreans and foreigners playing in the same tournaments would be fine, and probably even beneficial, simply because tournament prizes are not relied on. So yeah at first koreans would probably win most of the big prize pool tournaments but eventually it would even out. However that is not the case right now and that is why, as CatZ said, having everyone competing in the same tournaments can be detrimental to eSports outside of South Korea.
In my mind the ultimate goal is for all players across the world to compete in the same leagues, and to be financially supported by their teams by means of a salary (just like players in any sport are). That's how it is in baseball, basketball, football. soccer, hockey, and pretty much any major sport you can think of. One thing we can do as fans to encourage this is to provide our financial support by doing things as "buying a t-shirt" like Sundance of MLG said. Buy HD passes to streams, by team/player based apparel (to the teams out there: sell team shirts!!!), buy lessons from players if you are into that, and definitely buy products from team sponsors to encourage team and player sponsorships.
P.S. Professional sports organizations and entertainment firms make most of their revenue from merchandise, which is something that eSports has been severely lacking in, although I think that is going to change soon. I think that making more things available to the community to purchase would really help the growth of eSports and would make it financially viable, and even rewarding, to become a part of as either a player, team, or sponsor. So basically, get more things out there for us fans to show our support!
I understand what CatZ is saying, but I don't think that NASL is the tournament to blame it on. The NASL is an online tournament, and it only makes sense that an online tournament allows players from all over the world participate.
I think instead, what CatZ is hoping, is that the NASL develops and grows a new branch similar to the MLG that is only LAN/live play. Or that the MLG grows far larger and becomes the premier tournament in North America.
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On April 10 2011 10:57 Tachion wrote:
How does having only NA players grow the NA scene when there is not as much attention surrounding a NA only league? Is it better for the NA pros? Yea, more spots are open for them, and it's easier competition. Does it help to grow the NA scene? Nope, I don't think so. The tournament will get less attention, less viewers, less sponsorship etc. than a tournament that has some world class Koreans competing in it. Can anyone really give me a reason why this wouldn't be the case?
You're thinking of "grow" in the wrong sense. When we say "grow" in "grow the scene" we don't mean "popularize." Having more viewers is not the goal; the goal is having a system where players from the Americas and Europe can actually compete on an even footing with Koreans, and a system where it is possible for western players to be "pro gamers" in a meaningful sense of the term, that is, professional and paid to game.
If Koreans come and win all the tournaments, even if they make the tournaments more popular, it's going to kill the potential to have real Western pro teams because no one will sponsor a team if all of the spectators think it has no chance to win.
Before we can have international competitions, we need to grow players and teams here.
(additionally, your logic is flawed when you say that Koreans will attract more viewers and sponsors. No Westerners or Americans except those already involved in the SC scene care about whether or not a tournament has Koreans in it; but that's beside the main point.)
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On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are. It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly. But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else. Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time. Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams. - - - - Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup. - - - - What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them. You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other. Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL. These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic. People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous. If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice? People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports. Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY.
Really, I would uninvite 2 non-koreans and invite demuslim and nightend. Those two were awful fails by NASL organization and are not related to koreans. That said, for those local heroes to grow into people, they must be able to defeat the best players. I insist, best idea imo is to make NASL sponsor some minor local leagues once they get some money, that way they can sponsor growing talent. Keep the NASL a global event. AND NEXT TIME DONT SCREW UP, INVITE DEMUSLIM AND NIGHTEND AND DONT MAKE SILLY EXCUSES 
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On April 10 2011 11:10 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are. It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly. But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else. Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time. Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams. - - - - Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup. - - - - What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them. You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other. Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL. These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic. People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous. If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice? People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports. Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY. Exactly, people like to watch they home team agaisnt play against someone else. There will always be north american players in NASL, and some will probally always qualify. Your argument doen't take in account that what is proposed, a regional league, means only players you support. You seem to be arguing against the removal of american players. I can say that there I know plenty of sports where people love rooting for their nation players against other nations. Europe vs NA, Korea vs The World, etc, are all rivalries that help gathering support. Making it regional destroys that. Would every canadian be that excited if Stanley Cup was all canadians?
If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period...
The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything.
With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues.
What CatZ was talking about was having something like:
- Germany only
- USA only
- Canada only
- What ever country only...
Then:
- League where its best people from NA only
- League where its best people from EU only
Then:
- League where its best people from NA / EU only
Then:
- Global leagues
- - -
He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4.
That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested.
He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level.
Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried).
Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports...
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On April 10 2011 11:08 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 10:42 kedinik wrote:
That was a bunch of rambling xenophobia that boils down to THEY TOOK OUR JOBS! You are either trolling or didn't bother to watch the video before typing that rubbish and pushing post. There was no mention of xenophobia or losing jobs. Watch the video this time.
I guess you don't know what xenophobia is?
It comes through in the subtext of what someone states, not really in explicit racism or anything like that.
You have also missed a decent South Park episode if you don't know how THEY TOOK OUR JOBS relates to Catz's interview.
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Several posters said earlier that Koreans were having a hard time making a living off of SC2.
My question is why should we care? What did Korea do to help foster the BW foreign scene? Why should it be down to us to help the Korean SC2 scene?
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Catz has one big good point, IMO. And that's Koreans are participating in a lot of tournaments, NASL included, without any risk. Just play online, if you lose, that's it, no big deal. You might get experience of playing other strategies, so there may be even a benefit.
What about GSL? You have to move to Korea, survive there in a foreign country. You might lose time, money and homes comfort doing this, and getting nothing in return. How many foreigners have experience of that? MANY!
So yes, the league should be open to EVERYBODY, IMO. However, the players how to come to America, register, play here, and see how it goes. I suspect many Koreans won't do that either because they will not be confident of that being worth it, or being afraid of going outside etc. But that would be their loss.
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On April 10 2011 11:18 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:10 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are. It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly. But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else. Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time. Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams. - - - - Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup. - - - - What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them. You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other. Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL. These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic. People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous. If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice? People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports. Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY. Exactly, people like to watch they home team agaisnt play against someone else. There will always be north american players in NASL, and some will probally always qualify. Your argument doen't take in account that what is proposed, a regional league, means only players you support. You seem to be arguing against the removal of american players. I can say that there I know plenty of sports where people love rooting for their nation players against other nations. Europe vs NA, Korea vs The World, etc, are all rivalries that help gathering support. Making it regional destroys that. Would every canadian be that excited if Stanley Cup was all canadians? If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period... The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything. With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues. What CatZ was talking about was having something like: - Germany only - USA only - Canada only - What ever country only... Then: - League where its best people from NA only - League where its best people from EU only Then: - League where its best people from NA / EU only Then: - Global leagues - - - He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4. That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested. He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level. Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried). Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports...
That still doesn't address why Koreans are better, and how western players are going to "catch up". There is more money in the west, there are more tournaments in the west, more players are salaried and living comfortably off starcraft in the west. This has not resulted in higher skill in the west. Why does anyone think that heaping even more money without competition over westerners will help?
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On April 10 2011 11:20 Sandro wrote:
Several posters said earlier that Koreans were having a hard time making a living off of SC2.
My question is why should we care? What did Korea do to help foster the BW foreign scene? Why should it be down to us to help the Korean SC2 scene?
It's not the Korean SC2 scene vs the American SC2 scene vs EU w/e. We're all the same community. The more fans and players from around the world, the better it is for all of us. SC2 is still tiny compared to even something like competitive Chess. It would be stupid to ignore the Korean scene just to grow the American scene.
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Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others.
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You want the best players in the world at your tournament. The best players in the world are currently korean. If one of your goals as a league is to encourage the north american scene to be the best in the world, then excluding the koreans from your tournament is only going to have the opposite effect.
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On April 10 2011 11:08 deL wrote:
Have to agree with Geoff. Restricting the big prizes to NA players only won't make world-class players develop, it will make players who are good/competitive within the confines of NA and not necessarily on a world scale - you might end up with a bunch of players who are local heroes but 2nd tier to those who play in big events with international presence. The inclusion of top international players means the standard of local play has to rise to meet it.
Growth of esports does not equate to having world class players develop.
Growth of esports means more interest in the scene, which leads to more viewers, high notoriety, more interest from sponsors, higher funding, better production value, bigger tournaments, the sponsorship of teams, more money,player salaries... in other words a sustainable business
When people talk about the growth of esports in comparison to Koreans. They want the infrastructure that lead the Korean scene to have players earning 6 figure salaries here in the west.
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Completely agree.
I've felt this way for a while, that we're just allowing other countries run away with certain games. CatZ is nailing it though.
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On April 10 2011 11:18 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:10 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are. It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly. But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else. Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time. Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams. - - - - Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup. - - - - What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them. You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other. Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL. These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic. People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous. If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice? People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports. Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY. Exactly, people like to watch they home team agaisnt play against someone else. There will always be north american players in NASL, and some will probally always qualify. Your argument doen't take in account that what is proposed, a regional league, means only players you support. You seem to be arguing against the removal of american players. I can say that there I know plenty of sports where people love rooting for their nation players against other nations. Europe vs NA, Korea vs The World, etc, are all rivalries that help gathering support. Making it regional destroys that. Would every canadian be that excited if Stanley Cup was all canadians? If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period... The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything. With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues. What CatZ was talking about was having something like: - Germany only - USA only - Canada only - What ever country only... Then: - League where its best people from NA only - League where its best people from EU only Then: - League where its best people from NA / EU only Then: - Global leagues - - - He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4. That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested. He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level. Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried). Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports...
First, noone knows if koreans will destroy in NASL. If koreans reach a level where it is impossible to compete, BW like, I'm sure reactions about removing them would be really diferent. There's no reason to do that right now, knowing how much korea is ahead is actually something that we should try to do, and not avoid. Also, trying one single GSL and not making is not definitive at all. Dimaga wasn't destroying evey tournament in the West, yet you put him as a contestant. If you look at his past results, there are plenty of players around his level, why can't others have good runs like he did?
Also, I agree that having those steps would be awesome, but don't you agree that the regional tournament should be smaller? Then getting bigger and bigger, and the world champioship the biggest of them all? What doesn't make sense is having the biggest of them all just for a small region.
There's also the fact that I don't believe it would be possible to have a decent regional tournament in every single country. Not yet at least. It's hard enough to get sponsors for one big tournament, many small ones would be harder, and we would be stuck with some regions with tournaments and some without. It may work for a Germany National League, a small country with a high concentration of high caliber players, but even for the US, the country is just too big to do it offline, and if you do it online, you will probally make more money as the organizers by not making it US-only.
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On April 10 2011 11:25 emesen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:08 deL wrote:
Have to agree with Geoff. Restricting the big prizes to NA players only won't make world-class players develop, it will make players who are good/competitive within the confines of NA and not necessarily on a world scale - you might end up with a bunch of players who are local heroes but 2nd tier to those who play in big events with international presence. The inclusion of top international players means the standard of local play has to rise to meet it. Growth of esports does not equate to having world class players develop. Growth of esports means more interest in the scene, which leads to more viewers, high notoriety, more interest from sponsors, higher funding, better production value, bigger tournaments, the sponsorship of teams, more money,player salaries... in other words a sustainable business When people talk about the growth of esports in comparison to Koreans. They want the infrastructure that lead the Korean scene to have players earning 6 figure salaries here in the west.
That's true, but the NASL is an online league. Therefore, it's fundamentally different the leagues like the MSL, OSL, and GSL. Because it's online, it can incorporate players from all over the world easily, and there is no excuse to ban a certain region for competing.
What we should attempt to do, is grow MLG so that it becomes as big as the GSL. That way North America has a tournament to root themselves to. Even if an American never wins the NASL, they know that an American has a big chance to win the MLG.
Right now, I think CatZ is a little sad that a tournament with such a huge prize pool, called the North American SL isn't actually an American tournament. And I personally think their name was badly chosen. It implies that only North Americans play in it, when really, it simply means the games are played on the North American server.
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United States7481 Posts
On April 10 2011 11:27 Zlasher wrote:
Completely agree.
I've felt this way for a while, that we're just allowing other countries run away with certain games. CatZ is nailing it though.
how in the world is allowing koreans to play in foreign tournaments holding back foreign players from improving?
if anything it gives them more incentive to keep the koreans from running away with it - they have to compete against them to earn the prize money.
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On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
In general it is hard to outright disagree with what Catz is saying because at the basis of his argument is the fact that local stars need to rise up in order for this sport to grow. This is true no matter what way we will use to arrive at that point. It also is easier to create American stars in the US than it is to create Korean stars in the US. People like their national heroes.
However I think a lot of the arguments he builds on after this fact aren't that strong. I don't think the national league argument holds up as well in individual sports as he makes it seem.
The reason why he is only able to point at examples with team sports getting huge national leagues up is because often times teams get supported by people from a certain region within the nation and thus there is a lot of emotion attached to supporting them. Through that emotion you can fill up stadiums up to 100k people. You can see this in soccer, NBA, NHL etc.
In individual sports like tennis, bicycle racing, MMA, and StarCraft; people tend to attach themselves much more so to the individual itself and/or his nationality. You won't be able to fill up stadiums with supporters from the exact region Roger Federer is from. That attachment to regional teams in team sports, and that attachment to national players in individual sports, they are very important to the scene, but it is important that we do not mix them up and most importantly don't expect a national league for an individual sport being able to draw upon too much emotional support for their regional heroes.
A national league for an individual sport would mostly draw upon the viewers individual like or dislike for a player. Whether it is based on race or personality. If this argument is true then it makes the argument for national leagues much weaker because it would mean that people are able to start to like an individual player even if he is not from their nation. I believe this can be seen in Korean esports, TSL, IEM, MLG and basically any league that is going on right now.
National interest in an individual is still huge. Regional interest much less so.
Another argument would be that knowing how little the non-Koreans practice compared to their Korean counterparts, it kind of bugs me to see the need to ask for exclusive tournaments. The infrastructure may not be as good as in Korea with the teamhouses but it sure is a lot better than what the players are doing with it. Basically you shouldn't ask for easier leagues if you are not making the most out of your opportunities.
The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans?
Nazgul said it all. Read this.
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Threads like this is why I like reddit style forums. Liquid fucking Nazgul wrote an excelent post debunking Catz point and people still agree with Catz. TL has turned from a discussion forum to a i-read-the-op-and-post-my-opinion-fuck-the-rest forum.
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On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others.
Yeah I completely agree. I was disappointed by the interview. The thread should really be titled "Why I don't want Koreans in the NASL by Catz" I hope not all of ROOT feels this way 
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On April 10 2011 11:18 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:10 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are. It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly. But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else. Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time. Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams. - - - - Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup. - - - - What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them. You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other. Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL. These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic. People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous. If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice? People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports. Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY. Exactly, people like to watch they home team agaisnt play against someone else. There will always be north american players in NASL, and some will probally always qualify. Your argument doen't take in account that what is proposed, a regional league, means only players you support. You seem to be arguing against the removal of american players. I can say that there I know plenty of sports where people love rooting for their nation players against other nations. Europe vs NA, Korea vs The World, etc, are all rivalries that help gathering support. Making it regional destroys that. Would every canadian be that excited if Stanley Cup was all canadians? If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period... The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything. With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues. What CatZ was talking about was having something like: - Germany only - USA only - Canada only - What ever country only... Then: - League where its best people from NA only - League where its best people from EU only Then: - League where its best people from NA / EU only Then: - Global leagues - - - He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4. That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested. He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level. Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried). Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports...
But we do have a US only tournament. Like AskJoshy said in the video, we have the MLG. It's not fair to limit the NASL which is an online tournament to only North Americans. We can't blame it on the NASL.
I'm not sure what CatZ wants to happen, but I think what he is saying isn't that the NASL needs to limit its participants to NA only. But instead, what he wants is for more future tournaments and sponsors to focus on American LAN events like the MLG. Instead of sponsoring more and more online tournaments/Korea vs Foreigner showmatches/Korean team vs Foreigner team showmatches, he probably wishes more money were put into the MLG and other LANs so that the American scene can grow.
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EPT
