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I would like to point out that what Catz was saying is actually something that is going on and is happening right now. For example, Taiwan just got their very own starleague that is televised. Although the skill cap in taiwan isn't very high generally speaking, it is making huge growth for sc2 in taiwan as an esport. As of now the only two Taiwan players we have really heard of is Sen and Softball, but as Taiwan grows we will most likely start to see more players coming out or maybe even see some Europeans or Americans fly there for competition. Another thing Catz said is that we need figures to look at. Taiwan has Sen and Softball like I said.
Also, while browsing the forums I saw that there is some talk of people trying to grow sc2 in Japan. I being Japanese would think that this would be absolutley amazing (and im also not very good at sf4  ). Since they do not have a huge fan base they are wanting to try to become good enough to a level where they can compete with some part of the world. I feel if they did this more Japanese people would take an interest and soon there will be two new major esport homes.
Catz makes great points and even though he doesn't mention it, his theories are backed up by living proof.
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On April 10 2011 11:39 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
In general it is hard to outright disagree with what Catz is saying because at the basis of his argument is the fact that local stars need to rise up in order for this sport to grow. This is true no matter what way we will use to arrive at that point. It also is easier to create American stars in the US than it is to create Korean stars in the US. People like their national heroes.
However I think a lot of the arguments he builds on after this fact aren't that strong. I don't think the national league argument holds up as well in individual sports as he makes it seem.
The reason why he is only able to point at examples with team sports getting huge national leagues up is because often times teams get supported by people from a certain region within the nation and thus there is a lot of emotion attached to supporting them. Through that emotion you can fill up stadiums up to 100k people. You can see this in soccer, NBA, NHL etc.
In individual sports like tennis, bicycle racing, MMA, and StarCraft; people tend to attach themselves much more so to the individual itself and/or his nationality. You won't be able to fill up stadiums with supporters from the exact region Roger Federer is from. That attachment to regional teams in team sports, and that attachment to national players in individual sports, they are very important to the scene, but it is important that we do not mix them up and most importantly don't expect a national league for an individual sport being able to draw upon too much emotional support for their regional heroes.
A national league for an individual sport would mostly draw upon the viewers individual like or dislike for a player. Whether it is based on race or personality. If this argument is true then it makes the argument for national leagues much weaker because it would mean that people are able to start to like an individual player even if he is not from their nation. I believe this can be seen in Korean esports, TSL, IEM, MLG and basically any league that is going on right now.
National interest in an individual is still huge. Regional interest much less so.
Another argument would be that knowing how little the non-Koreans practice compared to their Korean counterparts, it kind of bugs me to see the need to ask for exclusive tournaments. The infrastructure may not be as good as in Korea with the teamhouses but it sure is a lot better than what the players are doing with it. Basically you shouldn't ask for easier leagues if you are not making the most out of your opportunities.
The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans? Nazgul said it all. Read this.
I also agree with Nazgul. Although it is a surprise that Western pros are making more money than Korean pros.
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No matter how you sugar coat it, it's going to come off to a lot of people as wanting to create a foreigner kiddie pool, which is the epitome of anti-hype, and thus counter-intuitive to growing the scene. You said that a lot of people disagree with you, and in a situation like this, having a lot of people disagree with you makes you wrong; even if your sentiments are in the best interest of the scene, if enough fans disagree with you, it will actually hamper it's growth.
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I think a lot of people have missed the point that CatZ was making. It seems to me that his real argument is that if we want the sc2 community to really take off in NA, we need to have a lot of well developed players. The only way to have really high level players is for them to be able to practice every single day, which is why he mentioned the root and eg practice houses. The only way that NA will be able to develop players is if there are big enough prize pools that they actually have a legitimate chance at winning.
And it is not racist to say that Korea has a much better and developed sc2 player infrastructure. Their gaming houses are a huge advantage, and their team support allows for a lot of players to legitimately be sc2 pros and make that economically feasible. It's not the race, its just the fact that living in Korea is a huge advantage for players...
So, I think CatZ would like to see the infrastructure for developing players in NA and EU be established. Because Koreans (simply because they live in Korea) are admittedly generally better, there needs to be some separate / exclusive leagues so that NA and EU players can also make money, and therefore make it sustainable to be a sc2 pro. Once it because sustainable to be a sc2 pro, the infrastructure for teams / practice houses will naturally follow, thereby allowing for 1) better overall players; and 2) a larger amount of top tier players.
CatZ is saying there has to be certain exclusive leagues where Koreans can't come in and just take 1st place and the majority of the prize pool, especially if there is little actual costs in them doing so. If this happened in every tournament, there would be no way that the necessary infrastructure in NA and the EU could be established.
Having a well developed pool of NA players who are at the highest skill level would help the sc2 community in NA as well. For whatever reason, people generally like watching their own nationalities play, likely because it is simply easier to relate to people that have similar backgrounds. With a bigger player pool there is more opportunities for intriguing player story lines, rivalries, and the like. It is just much harder to develop these larger player pools if it is vital to actually live in Korea to have a chance, there are not a ton of people who would make that commitment.
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On April 10 2011 11:14 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:09 ApBuLLet wrote:
I think part of CatZ's argument which he couldn't articulate particularly well is the fact that its hard for the foreign scene to flourish when korean players are winning all of the money. The reason for this is that the money is what makes playing full time and professionally considerable. I think that's what he was getting at with the whole "non-koreans need something to work for" thing. It takes a ton of time and effort to get good enough to be able to compete in all of these huge tournaments with the best of the best, and no matter how much players want to do that purely for their passion for the game, they simply can't if it can't support them financially. If foreign players are not able to put in the same time and effort that the koreans can then clearly they will not be as good as them and won't be until putting in the time is plausible.
CatZ is definitely right considering the way eSports is now, where most of a player's SC2 relate earnings (and in most cases ALL of their earnings) come from tournament prizes. If player's were paid salaries by their teams (and teams were supported more financially from their sponsors) then having koreans and foreigners playing in the same tournaments would be fine, and probably even beneficial, simply because tournament prizes are not relied on. So yeah at first koreans would probably win most of the big prize pool tournaments but eventually it would even out. However that is not the case right now and that is why, as CatZ said, having everyone competing in the same tournaments can be detrimental to eSports outside of South Korea.
In my mind the ultimate goal is for all players across the world to compete in the same leagues, and to be financially supported by their teams by means of a salary (just like players in any sport are). That's how it is in baseball, basketball, football. soccer, hockey, and pretty much any major sport you can think of. One thing we can do as fans to encourage this is to provide our financial support by doing things as "buying a t-shirt" like Sundance of MLG said. Buy HD passes to streams, by team/player based apparel (to the teams out there: sell team shirts!!!), buy lessons from players if you are into that, and definitely buy products from team sponsors to encourage team and player sponsorships.
P.S. Professional sports organizations and entertainment firms make most of their revenue from merchandise, which is something that eSports has been severely lacking in, although I think that is going to change soon. I think that making more things available to the community to purchase would really help the growth of eSports and would make it financially viable, and even rewarding, to become a part of as either a player, team, or sponsor. So basically, get more things out there for us fans to show our support! I understand what CatZ is saying, but I don't think that NASL is the tournament to blame it on. The NASL is an online tournament, and it only makes sense that an online tournament allows players from all over the world participate. I think instead, what CatZ is hoping, is that the NASL develops and grows a new branch similar to the MLG that is only LAN/live play. Or that the MLG grows far larger and becomes the premier tournament in North America.
I didn't really feel that CatZ was "blaming" the NASL for anything, I think he was just saying that he doesn't think that type of scene, where koreans and foreigners are all mixed together, is conducive to the growth of eSports outside of Korea. NASL is clearly a step forward in the growth of eSports but CatZ is just thinking even farther ahead in the future, where the question isn't necessarily about the growth of eSports as a whole, but the growth of eSports in the west.
And yes I think you are correct, he clearly wants a more western-based scene before trying to create a global one because the west simply isn't on par with Korea in terms of how developed eSports is.
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On April 10 2011 11:08 Insanious wrote:
It makes it intersting for you and me because we watch SC2 regularly anyway...
But it makes 0 difference to anyone who doesn't already watch, they want to attract people who don't already watch. The best way to do so is to get someone close to home for these people playing in a high level event, winning, and then making them a local celebrity.
If you ask someone who only knows 2 or 3 things about StarCraft, I would bet 1 of those thing would be that it's South Korea's national sport. If I've never seen a StarCraft II game before in my life, and I see that inControl is playing against Ensnare (that is, an American vs. Korean), I'm not watching to see if eg can beat ogs. I'm watching to see if an American can beat a South Korean. When Koreans compete in a foreign tournament, nationalism takes a role. When is the only time American's care about speed-skating? When Apollo Ono is kicking the shit out of South Koreans in the Winter Olympics. It's the same thing with StarCraft.
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On April 10 2011 11:51 tinydancer wrote:
The only way to have really high level players is for them to be able to practice every single day, which is why he mentioned the root and eg practice houses. The only way that NA will be able to develop players is if there are big enough prize pools that they actually have a legitimate chance at winning.
And it is not racist to say that Korea has a much better and developed sc2 player infrastructure. Their gaming houses are a huge advantage, and their team support allows for a lot of players to legitimately be sc2 pros and make that economically feasible. It's not the race, its just the fact that living in Korea is a huge advantage for players...
On April 10 2011 11:44 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:39 00Visor wrote:On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
In general it is hard to outright disagree with what Catz is saying because at the basis of his argument is the fact that local stars need to rise up in order for this sport to grow. This is true no matter what way we will use to arrive at that point. It also is easier to create American stars in the US than it is to create Korean stars in the US. People like their national heroes.
However I think a lot of the arguments he builds on after this fact aren't that strong. I don't think the national league argument holds up as well in individual sports as he makes it seem.
The reason why he is only able to point at examples with team sports getting huge national leagues up is because often times teams get supported by people from a certain region within the nation and thus there is a lot of emotion attached to supporting them. Through that emotion you can fill up stadiums up to 100k people. You can see this in soccer, NBA, NHL etc.
In individual sports like tennis, bicycle racing, MMA, and StarCraft; people tend to attach themselves much more so to the individual itself and/or his nationality. You won't be able to fill up stadiums with supporters from the exact region Roger Federer is from. That attachment to regional teams in team sports, and that attachment to national players in individual sports, they are very important to the scene, but it is important that we do not mix them up and most importantly don't expect a national league for an individual sport being able to draw upon too much emotional support for their regional heroes.
A national league for an individual sport would mostly draw upon the viewers individual like or dislike for a player. Whether it is based on race or personality. If this argument is true then it makes the argument for national leagues much weaker because it would mean that people are able to start to like an individual player even if he is not from their nation. I believe this can be seen in Korean esports, TSL, IEM, MLG and basically any league that is going on right now.
National interest in an individual is still huge. Regional interest much less so.
Another argument would be that knowing how little the non-Koreans practice compared to their Korean counterparts, it kind of bugs me to see the need to ask for exclusive tournaments. The infrastructure may not be as good as in Korea with the teamhouses but it sure is a lot better than what the players are doing with it. Basically you shouldn't ask for easier leagues if you are not making the most out of your opportunities.
The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans? Nazgul said it all. Read this. I also agree with Nazgul. Although it is a surprise that Western pros are making more money than Korean pros.
Everyone that brings up the support of the korean Teams should read Nazgul's post. It seems western players receive more from their teams.
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On April 10 2011 11:42 Dice17 wrote:I would like to point out that what Catz was saying is actually something that is going on and is happening right now. For example, Taiwan just got their very own starleague that is televised. Although the skill cap in taiwan isn't very high generally speaking, it is making huge growth for sc2 in taiwan as an esport. As of now the only two Taiwan players we have really heard of is Sen and Softball, but as Taiwan grows we will most likely start to see more players coming out or maybe even see some Europeans or Americans fly there for competition. Another thing Catz said is that we need figures to look at. Taiwan has Sen and Softball like I said. Also, while browsing the forums I saw that there is some talk of people trying to grow sc2 in Japan. I being Japanese would think that this would be absolutley amazing (and im also not very good at sf4 ). Since they do not have a huge fan base they are wanting to try to become good enough to a level where they can compete with some part of the world. I feel if they did this more Japanese people would take an interest and soon there will be two new major esport homes. Catz makes great points and even though he doesn't mention it, his theories are backed up by living proof.
What CatZ wants is for more sponsors and fans to support "local" tournaments like the MLG. I think he sees the TSL and the NASL and other tournaments like Dreamhack spending valuable spots on Korean invites and feels like we're 1 step too far ahead. He wants the tournaments to focus on local pros first before inviting Korean pros, who have already established an e-sports scene in Korea, over to foreigner run tournaments.
But I think CatZ is a little wrong. Like Nazgul said, the Korean SC2 scene is still just as young as the Western SC2 scene. We don't want to start kicking Koreans out of our tournaments, because that will cause a detriment to the Global growth of SC2. But Catz is a little right, in that we need an American SC2 scene before we can have a Global SC2 scene.
What really needs to happen, in my opinion, is for more sponsors and more tournaments to support LAN events, rather than having nearly every new tournament be a new online, Global event.
But at the same time, the TSL and the NASL have their place as online tournaments. It is good for the Global community to come together and see their nation's pros face off against another's.
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It doesn't surprise me what Liquid Nazgul said, i.e. a lot of Koreans don't get a good salary. This is an individual sports, much like box, chess etc. The best players get a lot of money, but most players have barely enough to survive.
People get the wrong idea about Korean players earning a lot of money from seeing how much Flash, Bisu, Nada, oGsMC are getting. Just a tier below, it's probably a huge drop in salary.
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On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others.
Yeah it is about the money because whether you like it or not the money is what will stimulate the growth of eSports. There's no way around that. If there is no money in it then people cannot dedicate their lives to it (which is what it takes to compete at the very top level, with the koreans) unless they want to live in a box.
It's about the level of development of eSports in the different regions. Korean eSports is more developed then anywhere else in the world, and that is why he seems to be singling them out. I don't feel like he is being greedy and doesn't think he'll win any money when competing with koreans, I think he fears that the koreans will hinder the growth of foreign eSports by sucking the only source of viability out of it, which is large tournament prize pools.
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On April 10 2011 11:59 ApBuLLet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others. Yeah it is about the money because whether you like it or not the money is what will stimulate the growth of eSports. There's no way around that. If there is no money in it then people cannot dedicate their lives to it (which is what it takes to compete at the very top level, with the koreans) unless they want to live in a box. It's about the level of development of eSports in the different regions. Korean eSports is more developed then anywhere else in the world, and that is why he seems to be singling them out. I don't feel like he is being greedy and doesn't think he'll win any money when competing with koreans, I think he fears that the koreans will hinder the growth of foreign eSports by sucking the only source of viability out of it, which is large tournament prize pools.
Read Liquid'Nazgul's post please.
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On April 10 2011 11:23 alexhard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:18 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 11:10 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are. It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly. But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else. Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time. Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams. - - - - Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup. - - - - What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them. You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other. Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL. These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic. People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous. If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice? People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports. Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY. Exactly, people like to watch they home team agaisnt play against someone else. There will always be north american players in NASL, and some will probally always qualify. Your argument doen't take in account that what is proposed, a regional league, means only players you support. You seem to be arguing against the removal of american players. I can say that there I know plenty of sports where people love rooting for their nation players against other nations. Europe vs NA, Korea vs The World, etc, are all rivalries that help gathering support. Making it regional destroys that. Would every canadian be that excited if Stanley Cup was all canadians? If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period... The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything. With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues. What CatZ was talking about was having something like: - Germany only - USA only - Canada only - What ever country only... Then: - League where its best people from NA only - League where its best people from EU only Then: - League where its best people from NA / EU only Then: - Global leagues - - - He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4. That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested. He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level. Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried). Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports... That still doesn't address why Koreans are better, and how western players are going to "catch up". There is more money in the west, there are more tournaments in the west, more players are salaried and living comfortably off starcraft in the west. This has not resulted in higher skill in the west. Why does anyone think that heaping even more money without competition over westerners will help?
I would liek to argue your point, that a lot of players are living comfortably off a salary in the western scene. I'm not sure but i think that people on Root or Mouz or Alternate Attax, are not living of a salarie but are more or less doing something besides progaming to finance their living.
Actually i totaly agree with Catz on the point that it should start out localy and then grow. If i see, in a potential german league, somebody from my hometown play against somebody from a different city i have an emotional connection and might be rooting for him just for that reason, that we had the same birthplace. If Heosat.San plays against oGsZenio, i do not care in any way, who wins but hope for some insane plays. I am not emotionally invested in any way, for me they are both just random koreans i do not care about, which sounds harsh but is the sad reality.
Emotional investment, however, is something that is needed for a sport(yes i am comparing e-Sport to "regular" sports) to become successfull. Thats why you see people cry when THEIR team looses or their favorite player gets injured. And this emotional connection is way easier to establish on a local stage than globally. This is how soccer got succesfull and how other sports get successfull.
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On April 10 2011 12:04 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:23 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 11:18 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 11:10 SKC wrote:On April 10 2011 11:04 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 10:50 cheesemaster wrote:On April 10 2011 10:30 alexhard wrote:On April 10 2011 10:28 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2011 10:25 cheesemaster wrote:
IF nasl was an offline league obviously what he said makes sense, but its not and saying europeans can join in an online tournament but not koreans is just discrimination, they will still have to fly out if they make it to the top 16 as well so its not like its 0 commitment.
Also i just feel that catz thinks this way because he really isnt a top player, and he really doesnt stand any chance of making it out of his group with koreans there, i really dont think hed stand much of a chance either way, but i see where he is coming from being a sub par pro gamer and what not lol. No...it would be pandering to an audience you were trying to grow. If you want western esports to grow then slant your product towards a western audience. You seem to be trying to infer a lot from catz based off of him as a player and less off of what he actually said. So what are you saying exactly? That the audience is racist, and therefore tournament organizers should pander to their racism? Not only do I find that morally reprehensible, I also think it is not true. In this day and age, and especially in an internet community where everyone is extremely competitive, the race and nationality of the players do not matter much for the fans. ^ This, i dunno wich western audience wouldnt want to see a huge international tournament with the best players fromm all over the world, that sounds a whole lot more exciting then an NA only tournament, i am infinetly more excited for the first season of NASL then i am for the first season of IPL and i would say most people feel the same ( i could be wrong). Honestly its about having the best players and not about where you come from or what race you are. It is more interesting to people who already watch SC2 regularly. But to say... get my Dad randomly into e-sports, he is more likely to root for a local player than anyone else. Its the same way that in Canada for Hockey. During the regular season, you root for YOUR team (What ever city you are closest to with a NHL team in it). You root for toronto, or montreal, or vancouver, or edmonton, etc... due to geographic proximity 99% of the time. Then the play-offs hit, and Canadians root for Canadian teams, hoping that ANY canadian team beats the American teams. - - - - Now, during the play-offs, a large portion of the population does not care about hockey, but if a Canadian team suddenly has a chance at the Stanly Cup, the whole Country supports this team. People who don't watch hockey start watching, hoping for a Canadian team to take the cup. - - - - What CatZ is talking about is that people who don't watch e-sports are more likely to root for a player that is from close to them. You are more likely to say if in the Finals it was Kiwikaki vs idra (not going to happen, but hey, just saying) you will pull in Canadians and Americans who don't watch e-sports to see if they country is better than the other. Or even look in the NASL thread about how PISSED people from the UK were over DeMusliM not getting into the NASL. People literally said they would not buy a ticket because there was no one from Britan in the NASL. These people watch to root for people that are from their own country, they don't come to watch high level play, they come to watch to be patriotic. People like seeing their country do well, people LOVE it when someone from their home town does ANYTHING famous. If suddenly any pro gamer from NA/EU started to dominate, brining in hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money, do you really think people from their home town wouldn't notice? People talk, and this is what will grow e-sports. Having really high level play will NOT grow e-sports, the only way to grow e-sports is to get people like your parents, or your grandma interested in watching a match of SC2 instead of sitting infrot of the TV and watching CSI:NY. Exactly, people like to watch they home team agaisnt play against someone else. There will always be north american players in NASL, and some will probally always qualify. Your argument doen't take in account that what is proposed, a regional league, means only players you support. You seem to be arguing against the removal of american players. I can say that there I know plenty of sports where people love rooting for their nation players against other nations. Europe vs NA, Korea vs The World, etc, are all rivalries that help gathering support. Making it regional destroys that. Would every canadian be that excited if Stanley Cup was all canadians? If Canadian teams couldn't compete at the level of American teams in the NHL, then no one would care in Canada period... The whole point CatZ was making is that, if Koreans just win everything, the people won't care about e-sports since there is 0 chance they can make a living playing the game, since the koreans just win everything. With regional leagues you have money going to regional players that allow them to play in global leagues. What CatZ was talking about was having something like: - Germany only - USA only - Canada only - What ever country only... Then: - League where its best people from NA only - League where its best people from EU only Then: - League where its best people from NA / EU only Then: - Global leagues - - - He is just saying, we should start at step 1, instead of step 4. That if you just throw everyone together like now, you end up with KR owning everyone, taking all the prize pool, and it makes people who currently don't watch e-sports not as interested. He even said we can start with a NA / EU only league since NA and EU players are pretty much of the same skill level. Its just that there are few NA/EU players that can compete vs KR players on a 1:1 basis. We know there are some (iDra, Huk, Jinro, Dimaga, etc...) but then there are A LOT of NA/EU players that cannot compete vs KR players (ex. everyone who didn't make it into any GSL but tried). Having the KR players just destroy the NA/EU players does not foster the growth of e-sports... That still doesn't address why Koreans are better, and how western players are going to "catch up". There is more money in the west, there are more tournaments in the west, more players are salaried and living comfortably off starcraft in the west. This has not resulted in higher skill in the west. Why does anyone think that heaping even more money without competition over westerners will help? I would liek to argue your point, that a lot of players are living comfortably off a salary in the western scene. I'm not sure but i think that people on Root or Mouz or Alternate Attax, are not living of a salarie but are more or less doing something besides progaming to finance their living. Actually i totaly agree with Catz on the point that it should start out localy and then grow. If i see, in a potential german league, somebody from my hometown play against somebody from a different city i have an emotional connection and might be rooting for him just for that reason, that we had the same birthplace. If Heosat.San plays against oGsZenio, i do not care in any way, who wins but hope for some insane plays. I am not emotionally invested in any way, for me they are both just random koreans i do not care about, which sounds harsh but is the sad reality. Emotional investment, however, is something that is needed for a sport(yes i am comparing e-Sport to "regular" sports) to become successfull. Thats why you see people cry when THEIR team looses or their favorite player gets injured. And this emotional connection is way easier to establish on a local stage than globally. This is how soccer got succesfull and how other sports get successfull.
Read Liquid'Nazgul's post please. He is a team manager that is constantly in contact with korean team managers.
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On April 10 2011 12:03 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 11:59 ApBuLLet wrote:On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others. Yeah it is about the money because whether you like it or not the money is what will stimulate the growth of eSports. There's no way around that. If there is no money in it then people cannot dedicate their lives to it (which is what it takes to compete at the very top level, with the koreans) unless they want to live in a box. It's about the level of development of eSports in the different regions. Korean eSports is more developed then anywhere else in the world, and that is why he seems to be singling them out. I don't feel like he is being greedy and doesn't think he'll win any money when competing with koreans, I think he fears that the koreans will hinder the growth of foreign eSports by sucking the only source of viability out of it, which is large tournament prize pools. Read Liquid'Nazgul's post please.
What he said has nothing to do with what Nazgul said...
Compare the salaries of SC:BW pros to those in SC2...
Hell, Compare what oGsMC makes vs the top foreigner.
- - - -
Not even that, look at the fact that the koreans have pro houses where westerners do not. That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference!
Koreans have a better learning environment, and that is due to infrastructure, that is due to oh ya... support money from teams.
NA/EU teams don't have that kind of support (pro houses) and as such have less practice time, and as such are worse then koreans...
- - - -
It is not all about pay, a lot of it is about infastructure, and yes... korean e-sport infastructure is a million miles ahead of western infastructure...
1) Pro-Houses
2) TV Channels
3) Celebrity Status
Korea has these, NA/EU does not.
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Also for the record... e-sports =/= SC2.
So with Korea you have to do SC:BW + SC2 vs every other video game combined in the west...
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On April 10 2011 12:06 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 12:03 LagT_T wrote:On April 10 2011 11:59 ApBuLLet wrote:On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others. Yeah it is about the money because whether you like it or not the money is what will stimulate the growth of eSports. There's no way around that. If there is no money in it then people cannot dedicate their lives to it (which is what it takes to compete at the very top level, with the koreans) unless they want to live in a box. It's about the level of development of eSports in the different regions. Korean eSports is more developed then anywhere else in the world, and that is why he seems to be singling them out. I don't feel like he is being greedy and doesn't think he'll win any money when competing with koreans, I think he fears that the koreans will hinder the growth of foreign eSports by sucking the only source of viability out of it, which is large tournament prize pools. Read Liquid'Nazgul's post please. What he said has nothing to do with what Nazgul said... Compare the salaries of SC:BW pros to those in SC2... Hell, Compare what oGsMC makes vs the top foreigner. - - - - Not even that, look at the fact that the koreans have pro houses where westerners do not. That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference! Koreans have a better learning environment, and that is due to infrastructure, that is due to oh ya... support money from teams. NA/EU teams don't have that kind of support (pro houses) and as such have less practice time, and as such are worse then koreans... - - - - It is not all about pay, a lot of it is about infastructure, and yes... korean e-sport infastructure is a million miles ahead of western infastructure... 1) Pro-Houses 2) TV Channels 3) Celebrity Status Korea has these, NA/EU does not.
The lack of western prohouses is not due to lack of funding, is due to what it seems lack of commitment. Now that players are commiting to esports pro houses are appearing (EG, Root)
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On April 10 2011 12:09 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 12:06 Insanious wrote:On April 10 2011 12:03 LagT_T wrote:On April 10 2011 11:59 ApBuLLet wrote:On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others. Yeah it is about the money because whether you like it or not the money is what will stimulate the growth of eSports. There's no way around that. If there is no money in it then people cannot dedicate their lives to it (which is what it takes to compete at the very top level, with the koreans) unless they want to live in a box. It's about the level of development of eSports in the different regions. Korean eSports is more developed then anywhere else in the world, and that is why he seems to be singling them out. I don't feel like he is being greedy and doesn't think he'll win any money when competing with koreans, I think he fears that the koreans will hinder the growth of foreign eSports by sucking the only source of viability out of it, which is large tournament prize pools. Read Liquid'Nazgul's post please. What he said has nothing to do with what Nazgul said... Compare the salaries of SC:BW pros to those in SC2... Hell, Compare what oGsMC makes vs the top foreigner. - - - - Not even that, look at the fact that the koreans have pro houses where westerners do not. That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference! Koreans have a better learning environment, and that is due to infrastructure, that is due to oh ya... support money from teams. NA/EU teams don't have that kind of support (pro houses) and as such have less practice time, and as such are worse then koreans... - - - - It is not all about pay, a lot of it is about infastructure, and yes... korean e-sport infastructure is a million miles ahead of western infastructure... 1) Pro-Houses 2) TV Channels 3) Celebrity Status Korea has these, NA/EU does not. The lack of western prohouses is not due to lack of funding, is due to what it seems lack of commitment. Now that players are commiting to esports pro houses are appearing (EG, Root)
I said nothing about funding... I just said they didn't exist yet where they do in Korea.
As well, the ROOT and EG pro houses are very different then the 12 hour a day practice pro-houses of koreans.
the ROOT and EG prohouses are just a bunch of pros living together in a house, it isn't like it is set up in korea.
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On April 10 2011 12:06 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 12:03 LagT_T wrote:On April 10 2011 11:59 ApBuLLet wrote:On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others. Yeah it is about the money because whether you like it or not the money is what will stimulate the growth of eSports. There's no way around that. If there is no money in it then people cannot dedicate their lives to it (which is what it takes to compete at the very top level, with the koreans) unless they want to live in a box. It's about the level of development of eSports in the different regions. Korean eSports is more developed then anywhere else in the world, and that is why he seems to be singling them out. I don't feel like he is being greedy and doesn't think he'll win any money when competing with koreans, I think he fears that the koreans will hinder the growth of foreign eSports by sucking the only source of viability out of it, which is large tournament prize pools. Read Liquid'Nazgul's post please. What he said has nothing to do with what Nazgul said... Compare the salaries of SC:BW pros to those in SC2... Hell, Compare what oGsMC makes vs the top foreigner. - - - - Not even that, look at the fact that the koreans have pro houses where westerners do not. That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference! Koreans have a better learning environment, and that is due to infrastructure, that is due to oh ya... support money from teams. NA/EU teams don't have that kind of support (pro houses) and as such have less practice time, and as such are worse then koreans... - - - - It is not all about pay, a lot of it is about infastructure, and yes... korean e-sport infastructure is a million miles ahead of western infastructure... 1) Pro-Houses 2) TV Channels 3) Celebrity Status Korea has these, NA/EU does not.
There are Korean pro teams(SC2) without sponsors that still manage to organize team houses. If they can do it, there's no excuse for others not being able to do it.
In fact, the best team in all of SC2, IM(#1 and #2 GSTL finishes, most golds from their players than any other team) has no sponsor and still managed to put together a team house which produced 2 of the best players to touch the game.
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On April 10 2011 12:06 Insanious wrote:
What he said has nothing to do with what Nazgul said...
Compare the salaries of SC:BW pros to those in SC2...
Hell, Compare what oGsMC makes vs the top foreigner.
- - - -
Not even that, look at the fact that the koreans have pro houses where westerners do not. That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference!
Koreans have a better learning environment, and that is due to infrastructure, that is due to oh ya... support money from teams.
NA/EU teams don't have that kind of support (pro houses) and as such have less practice time, and as such are worse then koreans...
- - - -
It is not all about pay, a lot of it is about infastructure, and yes... korean e-sport infastructure is a million miles ahead of western infastructure...
1) Pro-Houses
2) TV Channels
3) Celebrity Status
Korea has these, NA/EU does not.
TV channels is hardly relevant for SC2 in Korea. As for celebrity status I think you should go and visit an MLG sometime. Huk and Jinro are received as bigger stars outside of Korea than inside Korea. Pro houses you are right about.
Having a pro house does not imply less practice time btw. It implies better and easier access to training partners and more motivated people around you. Whether you play from your own room in your own house or whether you are in a team house can you explain why exactly you would argue that leads to less practice time? Less quality practice but the amount of practice is up to someones motivation.
You're mostly just bsing.
The money oGsMC makes from prize money is obtained through a long period of practice without any salary. Don't pretend like he got there by being paid a lot of money to play.
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On April 10 2011 12:06 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 12:03 LagT_T wrote:On April 10 2011 11:59 ApBuLLet wrote:On April 10 2011 11:24 Xxavi wrote:
Saying that, Carz ruins it with a bit of weirdness/xenophobia, as stated above. So he wouldn't complain about Europeans playing in NASL at all, yet he would complain about Koreans. Because he knows Koreans are better, and he just doesn't want them, while Europeans are equal, so he is fine.
Be blunt and clear with your reasons, Catz. Europeans too should move to America to compete. Otherwise, you just accept that you want to have a competition of lower quality just because your chances will get higher. It's all about money, not losing your job etc. and blaming it on others. Yeah it is about the money because whether you like it or not the money is what will stimulate the growth of eSports. There's no way around that. If there is no money in it then people cannot dedicate their lives to it (which is what it takes to compete at the very top level, with the koreans) unless they want to live in a box. It's about the level of development of eSports in the different regions. Korean eSports is more developed then anywhere else in the world, and that is why he seems to be singling them out. I don't feel like he is being greedy and doesn't think he'll win any money when competing with koreans, I think he fears that the koreans will hinder the growth of foreign eSports by sucking the only source of viability out of it, which is large tournament prize pools. Read Liquid'Nazgul's post please. What he said has nothing to do with what Nazgul said... Compare the salaries of SC:BW pros to those in SC2... Hell, Compare what oGsMC makes vs the top foreigner. - - - - Not even that, look at the fact that the koreans have pro houses where westerners do not. That is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference! Koreans have a better learning environment, and that is due to infrastructure, that is due to oh ya... support money from teams. NA/EU teams don't have that kind of support (pro houses) and as such have less practice time, and as such are worse then koreans... - - - - It is not all about pay, a lot of it is about infastructure, and yes... korean e-sport infastructure is a million miles ahead of western infastructure... 1) Pro-Houses 2) TV Channels 3) Celebrity Status Korea has these, NA/EU does not.
I don't really see how Nazgul's post isn't relevant.
Pro-Houses - Since the korean team doesn't have sponsors, from where does the money come from? Aren't western players capable of renting a apartment with 1 room filled with computers, 1 room with bunkbeds and a bathroom, since that's basically what they live in? Nazgul post is basically exactly about this very subject, western players make more than most koreans, so they should be able to have the same training conditions.
TV Channels - SC2 is in no TV channel at all. Gom TV is on the internet.
Celebrity Status - I believe you seriously overestimate that. I doubt MVP is aproached frequently on the street.
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EPT
