EPTCatZ Discusses Home-Grown NA SC2 Scene - Page 11
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Mandalor28
United States52 Posts
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kvn4444
1510 Posts
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Naughty
United States114 Posts
I feel people are neglecting to realize that while a winning a large prize pool is nice, any real sustainable income will more than likely come from sponsors, So if having stiffer competition at the top means attracting more and larger advertisers I say go for it. For league such as the NASL to have success going forward, to have bigger and better seasons for years to come they need to appeal to the crowed that is going to keep them running, The viewers and there sponsors. | ||
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ApBuLLet
United States604 Posts
On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: (...) Another argument would be that knowing how little the non-Koreans practice compared to their Korean counterparts, it kind of bugs me to see the need to ask for exclusive tournaments. The infrastructure may not be as good as in Korea with the teamhouses but it sure is a lot better than what the players are doing with it. Basically you shouldn't ask for easier leagues if you are not making the most out of your opportunities. The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans? I found this portion of Nazgul's perspective on this issue particularly interesting. It's something that most people who aren't very involved in the scene (Nazgul being just about as involved as it gets  ) wouldn't have much experience with. For example, I had no idea that there is a higher number of foreigners than koreans that are receiving salaries from their teams currently. This definitely takes away from CatZ's argument (and my own argument that I made previously) because if foreigners are getting at least equal financial support as koreans, then I see no reason why they shouldn't have a chance to compete in our tournaments. What I mean by this is that the Korean players are risking just as much in terms of a job, or in many cases an education, to dedicate themselves to play SC2 professionally as foreigners are, and the result of this is an equal opportunity to practice and be the best player possible. Yet somehow the Koreans are still leading SC2, just as they did in Brood War. So why is this? If players from all over the world, Korean and non-Korean, have the same opportunities presented to them, then theoretically they should all be able to compete on the same level right? Well Nazgul proposes a reason why he thinks this theory is holding true, and it is because foreign players simply do not work as hard as Korean players do. That is a damn good reason why Koreans are better then foreigners (I personally don't feel like they are, but that is the general consensus), and it is also a damn good reason why leagues should NOT exclude Korean players. Maybe the solution is to just keep pitting the foreigners against the Koreans until they either sink or swim and hope that there is enough interest and passion behind eSports that they swim. If not then it's just not the time for eSports quite yet and it is our own faults. Anyways, I just thought that was a very interesting point from a very unique perspective in the foreign community. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on it as well =). I know this is after the post of mine you commented on, but I just read Nazgul's post. Soooo read my post please ^^ | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 10 2011 11:19 kedinik wrote: I guess you don't know what xenophobia is? It comes through in the subtext of what someone states, not really in explicit racism or anything like that. You have also missed a decent South Park episode if you don't know how THEY TOOK OUR JOBS relates to Catz's interview. I know what xenophobia is. This video didn't strike me as coming off that way. I don't see your reasoning past "That was a bunch of rambling xenophobia that boils down to THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!" bro to maybe draw the same conclusion you have. Please explain or stop trolling. | ||
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
but i guess from catz perspective, he needs to be able to fund his lifestyle and the koreans are only hurting his chances at the prize. | ||
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Knutzi
Norway664 Posts
if starcraft 2 was bigger i would agree with this but right now there is not enough good players and the prize money is definetly not high enough to justify moving there, especially with the way nasl distributes their prize pool almost exclusivly for the top 4. | ||
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alexhard
Sweden317 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:25 ApBuLLet wrote: So why is this? If players from all over the world, Korean and non-Korean, have the same opportunities presented to them, then theoretically they should all be able to compete on the same level right? Well Nazgul proposes a reason why he thinks this theory is holding true, and it is because foreign players simply do not work as hard as Korean players do. That is a damn good reason why Koreans are better then foreigners (I personally don't feel like they are, but that is the general consensus), and it is also a damn good reason why leagues should NOT exclude Korean players. Maybe the solution is to just keep pitting the foreigners against the Koreans until they either sink or swim and hope that there is enough interest and passion behind eSports that they swim. If not then it's just not the time for eSports quite yet and it is our own faults. Anyways, I just thought that was a very interesting point from a very unique perspective in the foreign community. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on it as well =). I could not agree more. Perfectly put. The top starcraft players, both in Korea and internationally, are extremely competitive people. They all want to be the best. Segregate them into the kiddie pool and they will compete for the top of the kiddie pool. Pit them against the best and they will work harder, train harder, play harder. And we the spectators will enjoy better games, more people playing at a TOP level, and ultimately I think a more interesting scene. I think the success of TSL 3 has shown what sort of content people are interested in, and hope for more of that in the future. | ||
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StutteR
United States1903 Posts
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:18 kvn4444 wrote: Don't see any reason to exclude any top competitor regardless of where they're from in an online tournament with this much money up for grabs. there isn't even a real skill difference between koreans and the rest. just look at tsl, gom wc, and even the gsl itself. If he wants something more homegrown just look to the mlg which had mostly NA competitors, and will probably stay that way as it's costly to travel to US to compete for a shot at 5k. What would it be like to spend that much going to korea to try out for GSL and maybe not even qualify or break into ro32 which doesn't even cover a one way ticket? Same thing? Think about it. | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: TV channels is hardly relevant for SC2 in Korea. As for celebrity status I think you should go and visit an MLG sometime. Huk and Jinro are received as bigger stars outside of Korea than inside Korea. Pro houses you are right about. Having a pro house does not imply less practice time btw. It implies better and easier access to training partners and more motivated people around you. Whether you play from your own room in your own house or whether you are in a team house can you explain why exactly you would argue that leads to less practice time? Less quality practice but the amount of practice is up to someones motivation. You're mostly just bsing. The money oGsMC makes from prize money is obtained through a long period of practice without any salary. Don't pretend like he got there by being paid a lot of money to play. but e-sports =/= SC2... you have to take into consideration SC:BW which is HUGE in korea. NA/EU does not have a game like SC:BW that will allow for a transition of the fan base from one game to another. I can assume that koreans that watch SC:BW are more likly to watch SC2 than koreans that do not watch SC:BW. This means they will have an easier time to grow the fanbase of SC2 than in NA/EU where there isn't already precedent for a game to grow into something that is main stream. This means that it will be harder for NA/EU to turn SC2 into an SC:BW success type story than it will for KR players to destroy people in foreign tournaments, and to then generate a similar interest in SC2 that SC:BW garnered. It took time for even SC:BW to grow in KR. It will take time for SC2 to grow to the same size, but its more of a matter of time thing than a "Something else will come along..." type mind set that will be in a western country. This means that you need to look at the whole current e-sport infastructure. SC:BW is on TV in korea. This gives exposure for video games as an actual acceptable way to make a living. Although seen in the same way as someone trying to become a sports icon or a musician or Movie star (Long shots, but can happen). Unlike in NA/EU where a pro-gamer is something that people see as a non-career. If any video game was on TV regularly, there would be an increased interest in SC2, simply due to the possibility of it getting on TV. That exists in KR not in NA/EU. - - - - So then we move onto pro-gaming houses. They exist in Korea, they do not in NA/EU. Progaming houses COULD exists but they currently do not. It doesn't really matter what could happen, it just matters what is happening now. Currently, as of today. There are many KR progaming houses, where they have their whole team living together, on the same schedule, practicing together, talking about SC2, etc... In NA/EU there are currently 2 progaming houses, that house small portions of a team, where the players do not play in the same room and together. Different atmosphere, different situation. Korea has the gaming infastructure that NA/EU does not. This gives the KR players an edge when it comes to practice just due to the environment they are put in. I could play SC2 18 hours a day, every day, and not get better in any way shape or form simply due to not practicing the right things. In Korea, idra played ladder 12 hours a day, but it wasn't a huge help since he didn't have practice partners until many more NA/EU players came over to qualify for GSL. at which point he improved greatly over a short period of time due to the TYPE of practice he got. Just like right now, currently in the pro-gaming houses, the players are laddering instead of playing in house matches against each other to practice. There is a lot less focused practicing that is happening. As such the korean players have something that is better to work with and is allowing them to have a slight edge over NA/EU players. - - - - Finally we come to celebrity status, and yes. Jinro and Huk, Idra and TLO all have large fan bases within the current SC2 community, but when compared to the celebrity status of JulyZerg, NaDa, or Boxer it just doesn't compare. Simply due to how out there e-sports is in korea (due to SC:BW) these players have a much larger fan base as they were exposed in much larger ways (mainly television). NA/EU doesn't have the same way to hyper their players as korea can hype Flash / Jaedong / Bisu, etc... - - - - To me, all games are wrapped into a single "e-sports" blanket. To ignore the impact of SC:BW on korea's e-sport infastructure is ignorant. There might be less money in it for the players of SC2 in korea, but there is still the infastructure already there to help them succeed outside of korea. Where those players in NA/EU don't have that to work with. There was no success like SC:BW to be able to build their carreers on, there was no SC:BW with which to help get e-sports exposed to the masses. If Halo or WoW:Arena or Black:OPs had some how made it into the main stream, and there were TV channels of one of those games I wouldn't be saying anything... simply because the SC2 teams here would of been copying what those players did to get famous. But no game has picked up here like SC:BW did in korea. So NA/EU players cannot build off of the foundation that was already laid for them. For SC2 in the west, its a ticking time bomb "When will the next thing come along to steal people's attention away". I mean, its not like SC2 teams will be constantly getting sponsored if they cannot show results like a pro-sports team can. At least in Korea, SC2 will pick up as SC:BW starts to die down... Eventually people like flash, bisu, jaedong, etc... will retire and people will move over to the game that is attracting the new fresh faces SC2. Its more of a matter of time rather than a now or never. This I guess is just my opinion, but it's how I see it... We don't have TV exposure, SC:BW does, which trickles over to people checking out SC2 We don't have pro gaming houses, which allow players to play 12 hours a day next to other top players in which to get advice. We don't have the same star factor here that SC:BW players have now, and SC2 players will have in the near future. - - - - - This isn't about what is best for me or you for watching games. Obviously having koreans will be more exciting for us to watch. But this is about getting the TSL as popular as the super bowl, or game 7 of the stanley cup finals... The way you do that is by getting random people, who know nothing about e-sports to watch e-spots. You don't do that by getting the #1 players playing, you do that by getting them exposed to the idea that e-sports is something people like, you get them to start watching. The easiest way to do so is through pride in ones home country... because a random person in NA much less likely to watch KR vs KR than NA vs any one at all, even another NA player. If I am very very wrong about something, please let me know. Obviously I'm not as knowledgeable about the situation as you are Nazgul. But for me personally, SC:BW plays a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE factor in how large the e-sports scene is in Korea vs every else in the world. Especially since it gave the Korean SC2 players a basis to start from that Foreigners did not have (pro-houses are just a small part of that). | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:42 Baarn wrote: What would it be like to spend that much going to korea to try out for GSL and maybe not even qualify or break into ro32 which doesn't even cover a one way ticket? Same thing? Think about it. I fail to see your point here. Sorry, would you mind explaining it to me please? | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:39 Knutzi wrote: problem is if you only let people who live in us play in nasl you will end up with so may lesser players and that will create boring games --> less people watching --> less money for nasl too host future tournaments. if starcraft 2 was bigger i would agree with this but right now there is not enough good players and the prize money is definetly not high enough to justify moving there, especially with the way nasl distributes their prize pool almost exclusivly for the top 4. Oh like the fallout from GSL last night after game 2? When a whole bunch of people left the event and the stream. I think NASL matches will be more exciting than that crap. | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:49 LagT_T wrote: I fail to see your point here. Sorry, would you mind explaining it to me please? If a player gets into say the Round of 32 in the GSL, they then have to MOVE to Korea to play in the GSL. If they then subsequently lose in any round by the round of 8, their take home does not cover the costs of moving to korea. Only the top 8 players make anything worth writing home about within the GSL and even then its only like $2,600. You really need to win the GSL to make moving there actually worth it for prize money. Unlike if a KR player flies to America to play in a MLG, if they win it then they are up a lot of money, if they took anything from 1 - 4 they made money at the event. If they lost on the other hand, made $0, then they are still up more money then a player that moved to korea to be knocked out in the round of 16. EDIT: To make it even worse, to get into S class, you need to move to Korea, and Get top 16 in A Class, then you need to win two BO3 vs a current S class player. Even if you win Class A you only get $1,500. | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:53 Insanious wrote: If a player gets into say the Round of 32 in the GSL, they then have to MOVE to Korea to play in the GSL. If they then subsequently lose in any round by the round of 8, their take home does not cover the costs of moving to korea. Only the top 8 players make anything worth writing home about within the GSL and even then its only like $2,600. You really need to win the GSL to make moving there actually worth it for prize money. Unlike if a KR player flies to America to play in a MLG, if they win it then they are up a lot of money, if they took anything from 1 - 4 they made money at the event. If they lost on the other hand, made $0, then they are still up more money then a player that moved to korea to be knocked out in the round of 16. EDIT: To make it even worse, to get into S class, you need to move to Korea, and Get top 16 in A Class, then you need to win two BO3 vs a current S class player. Even if you win Class A you only get $1,500. And that has anything to do with excluding koreans from foreign tournaments because...? | ||
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coolcor
520 Posts
How big do the NA tournaments have to get and how long before talent would develop that could take on the world's best? | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:57 LagT_T wrote: And that has anything to do with excluding koreans from foreign tournaments because...? Because this was CatZ point about why Koreans should have to move to a western country if they want to compete in a western event. For a foreigner to compete in GSL its very expensive. For someone from KR to compete in a western event it costs nothing, but they have to experience a little lag. As well, I was responding to the post that I quoted, wasn't really talking to the thread as a whole. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:51 Baarn wrote: Oh like the fallout from GSL last night after game 2? When a whole bunch of people left the event and the stream. I think NASL matches will be more exciting than that crap. Honestly, game 3 of the GSL finals last night was pretty amazing, and the people who left after game 2 were missing out on the best match of the entire series. Also, since the Proleague finals were also happening the same night a bit later, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the live audience for the GSL left early to get into what happened to be an extremely well-attended and packed Proleague match. Dunno about stream numbers, however. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:57 LagT_T wrote: And that has anything to do with excluding koreans from foreign tournaments because...? Who said anything about "excluding" koreans in that explanation. It would create parity so they face the same type of hardships you would have moving to korea. | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
On April 10 2011 12:53 Insanious wrote: If they then subsequently lose in any round by the round of 8, their take home does not cover the costs of moving to korea. The costs of living in korea is substantially less than the US. And GOM actually provides team housing for potential foreigners. You wanna move to the US? Good luck you're on your own Only the top 8 players make anything worth writing home about within the GSL and even then its only like $2,600. 17-32nd place make $1330 which is equivalent to 4th place prize money at MLG. $2,600 is ~ 2nd place MLG. I guess it's not worth writing home about Unlike if a KR player flies to America to play in a MLG, if they win it then they are up a lot of money, if they took anything from 1 - 4 they made money at the event. up in a lot of money? $5,000 for 1st place down to $800 for 8th. Not to mention a system that heavily favors seeded players, chances are you aren't gonna win anything. | ||
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