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On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication?
Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?)
It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance).
Take this example:
If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants?
compare that to:
If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants?
I say no.
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This is quite a good philosophical issue. Full of counter-intuition and potential arguments.
+ Show Spoiler +While it seems like most people would be against the use of performance enhancing drugs in competitive gaming, the lines may blur when a person is legally prescribed the drug or when dealing with un-regulated performance enhancing drugs (e.g. caffeine).
Fundamentally, the same opposition to 'unfair advantage' may exist to prescribed drugs, but why is a line drawn between prescription drugs and those that are readily available? Would it change if such prescription drugs (e.g. adderall) were available to anyone?
I guess some answers can depend on the objective of the competition. Suppose the objective is to pit two individuals against each other on as fundamental a level as possible (i.e. with as close to identical conditions as possible).
If someone with ADHD can't focus at a "normal" level, should he be given an opportunity to address this shortcoming (through medication) before entering the competition? This situation seems to contradict with my definition for the objective of the competition by allowing one player to change his fundamental condition.
The issue of unregulated enhancement drugs such as caffeine (or other cognitive boosters) can be difficult since they are available to everyone, but have potentially harmful side effects in large quantities over prolonged periods. Logically, if the same objective of the competition is used, unregulated enhancement drugs may be banned.
However, I am not sure if they must be banned, since they are readily available and safe consumption thereof is up to an individual's discretion.
If anyone has any thoughts or counter-arguments, I'd be interested in different interpretations (via PM is fine if you don't want to bump this thread though...)
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3815 Posts
On October 17 2012 01:07 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication? Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?) It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance). Take this example: If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants? compare that to: If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants? I say no.
I guess progamers aren't allowed to wear glasses now? Please, Adderall for an ADD patient is like giving them regular legs, not robotic ones. And AFAIK, someone was allowed to run in the Olympics with an artificial leg.
Adderall isn't "augmentation" for an ADD sufferer, it's treatment. You wouldn't criticize someone taking antibiotics to get rid of an illness. For an ADD sufferer, it brings you up to the regular level of concentration that human beings should have.
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On October 17 2012 01:07 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication? Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?) It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance). Take this example: If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants?compare that to: If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants? I say no.
you Sir just made my day lol..
and I say Yes it should be allowed i think we need more amputees with motorcycle legs at least it would make track more entertaining..
its a touchy subject since some ppl do need it for concentrating but as with everything if you allow it there will be ppl who will abuse it and nowadays getting a prescription for ADD is as easy as getting medical Weed in Cali.
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3815 Posts
Worth noting that stimulants haven't done anything for my Sc2 game, by the way.
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Drug testing at esports events would be financially impossible for years to come, there's also the issue that a lot of gamers are prescribed adderall anyway. As someone who used to take adderall, I think it could do more harm than good in sc2 since it can impair logical thinking.
It's great for staying focused on menial work like studying or an FPS, but a pro player has no trouble at all playing at high apm (not that sc2 requires that much anyway) without drugs and it can also cause increased anxiety. Playing on adderall usually made me worse as sc2 is much more about proper decision making than mechanical speed. I usually had more benefit from weed (depending on amount obviously). Many koreans use herbal sedatives to relax themselves before a big game, allowing them to focus on the game without nerves becoming an issue.
Seeing as how anxiety issues are one of the largest hurdles for pro players and adderall tends to exacerbate these then I'm not sure how beneficial it would be. There are obviously people who do it, but some of these people could also be taking it because they think it must make them play better, and when you're on it you feel like you definitely FEEL like you play better. It's worth noting that koreans don't use amphetamines as they're outlawed in Korea. Like I said, progamers are used to focusing at least 6+ hours a day on gaming so using speed would be unnecessary unless there's issues like lack of sleep or jet lag involved. IMO some anti-anxiety med like klonopin would be much more beneficial (and probably more common in sc2).
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On October 17 2012 01:07 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication? Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?) It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance). Take this example: If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants? compare that to: If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants? I say no.
In the sport Judo there is someone on the GB team who suffers with ADHD and is not allowed to take any medication for it other wise he wouldn't be able to fight in any matches I think it should be banned for any sport including Esports and there should be drugs tests regally to check this.
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On October 17 2012 01:17 Shiori wrote:
Worth noting that stimulants haven't done anything for my Sc2 game, by the way.
Well that settles it then. =]
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This whole argument is kinda moot since drug testing is far too expensive and impractical to be viable in esports(unless there's a massive increase in popularity). However IF this was in place I doubt people with ADHD would get a pass, since it would give them an advantage. There's also the issue that adderall and other stims are WAAYY over-prescribed, while it may be true that people who legitimately have ADHD would only reach baseline concentration levels on stims, the number of people who TRULY need them is a small percentage of those prescribed. Also, the popular notion that adderall affects those with adhd differently is a myth. While they may have a legit need for the drugs that doesn't mean it affects them any differently, they simply need them to reach normal concentration levels.
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So, is Adderall classified as a performance enhancing drug?
I don't think it is, and if it isn't then I don't see a problem. Improved motivation, focus, and concentration could help basically any athlete (or cyber athlete). So, if it is as beneficial as you make it out to be, why is it not banned in other sports?
Not that this is a great argument, but it doesn't make sense if it is as beneficial as you say. Also, with greater concentration would you not get mentally exhausted even quicker? This seems counter-productive as a training/practice tool, unlike steroids which allows one to train for longer.
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On October 17 2012 03:20 Prplppleatr wrote:
So, is Adderall classified as a performance enhancing drug?
I don't think it is, and if it isn't then I don't see a problem. Improved motivation, focus, and concentration could help basically any athlete (or cyber athlete). So, if it is as beneficial as you make it out to be, why is it not banned in other sports?
Not that this is a great argument, but it doesn't make sense if it is as beneficial as you say. Also, with greater concentration would you not get mentally exhausted even quicker? This seems counter-productive as a training/practice tool, unlike steroids which allows one to train for longer.
It is banned for all sports. Adderall does allow you to focus for a longer period of time, that's the whole reason college kids abuse it, it allows you to study boring material for hours without getting tired or bored.
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I totally disagree with drug usage.
What about those energy drinks that everyone seems to be drinking?
Isn't that unfair for someone to play an opponent who just chugged 2 monster cans?
What you guys think?
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On October 17 2012 01:07 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication? Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?) It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance). Take this example: If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants? compare that to: If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants? I say no.
The machine parts are obviously better than the NORMAL human form.
The brain however when one has ADHD is in a current weaker form than that of a NORMAL person. So, when taking their medication their brain returns to NORMAL and everyone is on an even playing field.
Your comparison is shit. Now, if someone without ADHD was taking the drug it would be akin to the machine part of your comparison.
On a side not: Nobody should give a fuck if people are using drugs while competing. They either do or don't, but it is their life, and I'm pretty sure if you tested MVP and other top teir SC2 player or BW players in their prime they're drug free for the most part that or they keep good secrets. It doesn't actually change how games play out or else a lot of people would be doing it.
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I can see how people would jump to the conclusion that adderall and amphetamines in general are performance enhancers. However, just from my personal experience with ADHD and being prescribed "focus enhancing drugs", I play better without them. Adderall is great for homework and papers but SC2 does not require the same tasks and skill sets as school work... Adderall hinders your ability to think outside the box, limits your ability to multitask and slows your decision making process. These 3 effects are all detrimental to playing SC2 competitively. I think Adderall could be of great use for pros trying to grind out practice if you're trying to solidify a build or doing repetitive actions but I wouldnt say it enhances performance in an actually tournament setting.
The main thing people have to realize here is SC2 =/= studying. And I really don't care if its been banned in traditional sports or not because traditional sports =/= SC2 either. Until a comprehensive study is done that proves that adderall usage quantitatively enhances SC2 performance, I won't believe it.
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To the dumb PUck's wanting to take something illegal to improve your sc2 skill and stuff for maybe 4-5 hours.
It's a stupid idea honestly and won't help you improve at all, infact it's practically illegal outside of sc2.
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On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide...
...Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage.
You've obviously never tried Adderall XD
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On April 12 2015 20:32 Skaughteee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide...
...Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. You've obviously never tried Adderall XD
Don't be surprised if the mods send you a warning for responding to a four years old thread with a non-constructive comment.
It's considered SPAM and/or necro, and seems a totally unnecessary attempt to create more drama.
To quote the forum rules :
If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was deserved.
[EDIT] Just saw it's your 1st post on TL, whether or not you're a troll or simply ignorant of the etiquette doesn't matters. Here's a link to the forum rules so your stay and everyone else's may be as pleasant as possible.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
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On April 13 2015 01:28 varsovie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2015 20:32 Skaughteee wrote:On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide...
...Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. You've obviously never tried Adderall XD Don't be surprised if the mods send you a warning for responding to a four years old thread with a non-constructive comment. It's considered SPAM and/or necro, and seems a totally unnecessary attempt to create more drama. To quote the forum rules : Show nested quote +If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was deserved. [EDIT] Just saw it's your 1st post on TL, whether or not you're a troll or simply ignorant of the etiquette doesn't matters. Here's a link to the forum rules so your stay and everyone else's may be as pleasant as possible. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
as far as I know thats the first thread that opens up when you make a new account.
either way I don't see this as anything but an attention seeking troll.
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On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes.
Lol. No one needs adderal, you speak if it's an anti seizure medicine or insulin. That being said, it's up to the individuals playing to regulate themselves.
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On April 13 2015 12:07 Demosthenes13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes. Lol. No one needs adderal, you speak if it's an anti seizure medicine or insulin. That being said, it's up to the individuals playing to regulate themselves.
I work with a guy who has pretty severe ADHD at age 40. He has to take Adderral just to be able to do his job correctly, and even then he's still pretty twitchy. You could say he needs it in order to function as a member of society, which is pretty integral to living.
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