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On July 24 2015 12:08 jinorazi wrote:
The drug talk revolves around counter strike, as the necro post entailed. Reaction improving drugs have been rumored about as long as I can remember in cs.
More than just rumors. About a decade ago, a lot of the aging cs players were caught doing cocaine and speed to keep their reaction times on par with with their younger competition.
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"Adderall wont help you stop protoss all ins" - Moosegills
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On July 24 2015 20:33 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all
Yes, I do police their private lives, when it effects things outside their private life. Being on PEDs during a competition can effect the lives of hundreds to thousands of people directly and indirectly. You not only force your competitors to partake or risk being worse off for no reason other than not injesting something, but you also risk the integrity of the compeititon, and cost people hundreds to even a few thousand dollars, whether it be through legal betting, the prize pool you receive for winning on PEDs, or the salary you earn on your team for simply being better than the next guy because you're on PEDs. What you do is on you, but as soon as it starts effecting others, that's where most people draw the line, simply because that's the intelligent thing to do.
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On July 24 2015 23:40 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 20:33 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all Yes, I do police their private lives, when it effects things outside their private life. Being on PEDs during a competition can effect the lives of hundreds to thousands of people directly and indirectly. You not only force your competitors to partake or risk being worse off for no reason other than not injesting something, but you also risk the integrity of the compeititon, and cost people hundreds to even a few thousand dollars, whether it be through legal betting, the prize pool you receive for winning on PEDs, or the salary you earn on your team for simply being better than the next guy because you're on PEDs. What you do is on you, but as soon as it starts effecting others, that's where most people draw the line, simply because that's the intelligent thing to do. lol. ive made multiple posts already that smash this line of reasoning, read back for my reply because there's no point writing it again
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On July 24 2015 23:45 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 23:40 StasisField wrote:On July 24 2015 20:33 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all Yes, I do police their private lives, when it effects things outside their private life. Being on PEDs during a competition can effect the lives of hundreds to thousands of people directly and indirectly. You not only force your competitors to partake or risk being worse off for no reason other than not injesting something, but you also risk the integrity of the compeititon, and cost people hundreds to even a few thousand dollars, whether it be through legal betting, the prize pool you receive for winning on PEDs, or the salary you earn on your team for simply being better than the next guy because you're on PEDs. What you do is on you, but as soon as it starts effecting others, that's where most people draw the line, simply because that's the intelligent thing to do. lol. ive made multiple posts already that smash this line of reasoning, read back for my reply because there's no point writing it again
There's no point for me to because our point stands. It effects other human beings' lives so it gets regulated. A libertarian world only works in theory, bud. Sorry, but history of sports and competition proves you wrong. They wouldn't have decided to ban substances in every other respected sporting event and competition if you were right because there would have been no reason to.
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jathin used to be the pro scene's adderall dealer
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btw i was kidding, pls dont take away jatmans medical license..
cus im waiting for my next shipment ^_^
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On July 25 2015 00:03 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 23:45 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 23:40 StasisField wrote:On July 24 2015 20:33 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all Yes, I do police their private lives, when it effects things outside their private life. Being on PEDs during a competition can effect the lives of hundreds to thousands of people directly and indirectly. You not only force your competitors to partake or risk being worse off for no reason other than not injesting something, but you also risk the integrity of the compeititon, and cost people hundreds to even a few thousand dollars, whether it be through legal betting, the prize pool you receive for winning on PEDs, or the salary you earn on your team for simply being better than the next guy because you're on PEDs. What you do is on you, but as soon as it starts effecting others, that's where most people draw the line, simply because that's the intelligent thing to do. lol. ive made multiple posts already that smash this line of reasoning, read back for my reply because there's no point writing it again There's no point for me to because our point stands. It effects other human beings' lives so it gets regulated. A libertarian world only works in theory, bud. Sorry, but history of sports and competition proves you wrong. They wouldn't have decided to ban substances in every other respected sporting event and competition if you were right because there would have been no reason to.
There is no reason to talk with him more about this topic. People on EPO who have get up every hour in the night to let their blood circle more, people who die in the age between of 30 or 40 after massvie use of drugs to gain "that one victory". He does not care because people do it privatly and are not forced to do so. But there are: In a world where doping is legal, people would have to choose between winning and ruining their health or get out of that sport. Someone takes adderal, no harm? One other will find out, that he plays on crystal meth better then on adderal. The next one finds out that the russian drug "crocodile" is even better. You will have a drug race which forces people to do drugs for sports and to ruin their health.
Now you can say again, nobody forces them, they can do other jobs? Can they? I am a better stox exchange dealer under cocain, a better therapist under dope, a better facility manager under X. Yeah. I am liberal to people who want to ruin their health with tabac, alcohol and other drugs for their fun, it does not force anyone to take em. But when you start supporting people taking health damaging drugs for competition, either in sport or any other job, you force people to ruin their health to make a living. Yeah, normal jobs can do that too, but why increasing it massive?
Isnt it easier to ban these drugs in that situation? To not force people to take them to competete? Whould anybody lose anything from it? I dont think so. When a player misses some shots he would hit on adderal, on crystal or on anything else, it does not make the overall sport worse watching. I dont care if they need 5 hours or 5 hours and 20 minutes per day at the tour de france, but I care when their record champion drugged the hell out (and all others there too up to a point where health is ruined for many).
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You guys need to read up on the effects of psychostimulants on those without ADHD. They're more likely to make a person without ADHD "feel like" they're doing better than actually make them perform better.
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Lol the physical effects of anyone, prescribed or not, will general include increased heart rate, increased total compasity in heart, brain recorded more blood, etc. Not sure if it's been said, the problem with testing is stimulants are out of your system after a day or two.
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And for all you kiddies pretending to have ADHD and crying that aderrall is necessary , stop lieing to yourselves. You take a drug that makes you feel good, that's why you take it. I've worked with enough crack babies, and special populations to know that anyone who sits down to get into sc2 doesn't need aderrall. The fact that they made a conscious choice to sit still and try to get into as slow a game as sc proves they don't have this made up ADHD
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I use Modafinil and Piracetam not for SC2 but for better focus, memory and heavy studying in general.
These Nootropics drugs have been booming in the last decade or so. Many people really find them useful for mental stressful tasks.
I think these drugs can help in Esports and I don't think they should be banned, they don't really produce an unfair advantage. Plus they don't have those nasty side effects like aderall and other stimulants.
I would like to elaborate more but I really have no experience with the testing and different types of drugs used for different mental "boosts", I just use www.nootriment.com for info about stacks and prices.
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On July 26 2015 23:11 00Zarathustra wrote:I use Modafinil and Piracetam not for SC2 but for better focus, memory and heavy studying in general. These Nootropics drugs have been booming in the last decade or so. Many people really find them useful for mental stressful tasks.
I never understood drug taking for studying.
At what point did you stop believing in your abilities that you feel the need to supplement them with drugs.(rhetorical)
At what point are you allowing yourself to grow mentally, or is the growth artificial.
I see people do it all the time for difficult subjects like engineering and medicine.
Do these people actually believe they'll get a degree and then walk into a professional environment and be capable of the same work without the drugs? Do they think they'll be able to continue to take the drugs on the job? and lose all their credibility when the bosses find out. Losing your credibility in a professional environment is as good as not having a degree.
For me, I believe in an equal playing field.
Either drugs are allowed or not allowed, no exception on what is or not.
If we want to conserve the integrity of the sports, it's better if no drugs are allowed.
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[QUOTE]On April 06 2011 19:31 Actuarial wrote:
I have been diagnosed with ADHD and have been prescribed Adderall.
Adderall helps me focus on things that I otherwise have trouble focusing on like school or anything that bores me. But when I am playing Starcraft, I naturally focus intensely on the game. "
..Tell your unqualified doctor this statement and he'd take your script away, news flash, you don't have anything wrong with you, you never did.
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Porting this over from a locked thread titled Drug Tests in E-Sports and Player Unions. Just to clear up some misconceptions, I am not advocating the use of any substance. I am against the ESL's drug testing policy because I don't think it will work.
I'm watching The Late Game episode 38 and the topic of drug tests came up. I would like to put forth an argument as to why drug testing is E-Sports is a bad idea, and why players should organize to fight it.
First I want to discuss the issue of player representation. At the moment players often have no legal representation, and are in fact encouraged by some organizations to not get legal help (according to Ryan Mossiron on TLG). Without representation, players find it harder to get basic rights (like being paid, the ability to appeal actions of organisations), have little recourse when they are mistreated.
Players also need legal representation before signing contracts, but often they can't afford it. If there was a player union, that union could hire legal assistance to help all players negotiate contracts and help mediate disputes. A player union could represent players in the establishment of pay standards, expectations of players, and give players the ability to protest things that are not in their best interests, such as the introduction of drug testing in E-Sports.
Drugs in E-Sports
The ESL announced recently that they were going to team up with NADA (the Nationale Anti Doping Agentur, which is headquartered in Bonn, Germany) to begin testing for performance enhancing drugs. The drugs they are testing for can be seen in this list.
"Our main goal is and always will be to maintain the fair play spirit and the integrity of our competitions, and we’re confident that the anti-doping policy is an important improvement that will help us advance as a sport."
The main discussion has been around Adderall, stemming from an interview with "semphis", a Counterstrike player who said "we're all on Adderall". I will focus on Adderall for the purpose of this discussion.
What if a player has a legitimate prescription for medication (such as Adderall) containing one or more of the banned substances?
In this case, they have to disclose this to us as soon as possible, but no later than the first match is scheduled to start. They will be required to provide proof (a letter from a physician, for example) that they need this specific medication.
So what I take from this is that the ESL wants to start drug testing young people, who often have no legal representation, for a legal substance that some people legitimately need, and that can be used as long as that person has a prescription. From what I understand, Adderall is not a difficult thing to get a prescription for. So all introducing drug tests will mean is that everyone in E-Sports who wants to use Adderall will have a prescription for Adderall. It will not effect competitive play at all. It will achieve nothing toward their stated goal.
I understand and agree with the viewpoint that it would be nice if everything was 100% fair 100% of the time. But If you want a level playfield, I think the area where the biggest imbalance lies is between players and E-Sports organisations like ESL. Drug testing is going to be a massive waste of money in an industry where players regularly get shafted financially. Do players want that money to go to a drug testing company to do tests that will cause inconvenience and not make any significant difference to the amount of Adderall used?
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EPT
