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Update 7/23/2015:
This is for counterstrike but SC2 may see this day soon too.
Poll: Should psychostimulant medication (like Adderall) be allowed?No (1675) 79% Yes (436) 21% 2111 total votes Your vote: Should psychostimulant medication (like Adderall) be allowed? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
**Please read before taking the poll!
Most of you should be familiar with the performance enhancing drugs that plague professional physical sports leagues around the world. From football to baseball, hockey to lacrosse, players have consistently used steroids to give themselves an unfair advantage over the competition. As a result, most of the professional sports leagues have adopted rigorous drug testing regimens, ensuring that all the players are on a 'level' playing field.
It was recently brought to my attention, by none other than FnaticMSITT1, that there are indeed Starcraft 2 players who regularly take performance enhancing drugs at tournaments, some of which are as high-profile as the GSL. A significant number of professional players indeed take Adderall and other similar drugs before important matches to enhance their ability to concentrate - undoubtedly giving themselves an unfair advantage.
With that said, it is clear that some consideration must be brought to this topic. Is it fair to allow certain players the privilege of taking psychostimulant medication, giving them the ability to completely remove themselves from their surroundings and be totally focused on the game?
It is true that all players have the opportunity to purchase and consume drugs like Adderall, but do we really want to force all players to pay for costly drugs, with adverse side effects, just so that they are able to compete fairly?
I have great concern for the integrity of e-sports, and hope to hear your opinions on this potentially controversial topic. With your feedback, we will be able to reach the best possible resolution to this pressing issue.
Your fellow e-sport enthusiast,
TeKtoniK
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Absolutly not. It gives an advantage to whomever dopes. We do not want to encourage a situation where everyone takes drugs just to keep up, which can become a major health situation.
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I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No.
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On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No.
How about the way it is enforced in every other sport.
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I would say no as well but I can't see them implementing any sort of drug testing anytime soon. I can't see them making pro gamers piss into a cup to see if they have taken anything. That just sounds weird. Don't think e-sports has evolved enough to that point yet.
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Don't make rules you can't or won't enforce. I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide -- it's a pain in the ass, costs money, and risks drama -- and without that, it's unenforceable.
Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. Needless to say, nobody has publicly tested or measured anyone's video gaming performance under Adderall or any other nootropics in a controlled environment, and nobody understands the mechanism and effects of these sorts of drugs well enough to say exactly what they are and are not going to help you with.
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On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No.
Another problem is adderall is a very easy prescription to obtain. even if this were enforced it would still be abused IMHO.
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If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes.
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Of course people are abusing adderall in an environment like this, have you ever been in a college library at test time I'm not at all saying whether I think it is OK or not. I'm saying it is impossible to completely and practically enforce a standard, with the easy availability of abusable level amphetamine prescriptions. There are definately both legitimate and illegitimate users of medical amphetamine at EVERY event.
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If you have a prescription there shouldn't be a problem, but using it to gain a competitive advantage is bad io
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I think it's a no brainer vote in that we don't want eSport (or gaming, or computers or anything remotely like that) connected with either drugs or doping. I do however think that there are several ways to battle this of which none are realistically optimal at the given point in time.
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No way to enforce, and like I've said in another thread about this same topic, there's no god damn difference between drinking a red bull and popping an adderall except the degree. Both improve concentration and altertness. Ban caffeine too?
You can't. Deal with people taking mind roids it does nothing for the integrity of the game except make players play better and make games more exciting to watch.
edit: I don't even see how its debatable really. You can't enforce it, you can't figure out who is truly "suffering" from that horrible adhd syndrome, you can't pick some players that have prescriptions for it to let play and not others. Just won't work.
Deal with it and enjoy the higher quality of games you get to watch.
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big misconception that adderall makes you better. Only thing it would do is help people concentrate the entire game without their mind slipping off the game and think about the crowd etc..
being a former halo pro i know that 85% of the pros take adderall consistently at tourneys and the owners know it. which is why tests will not be enforced at mlg. remember adderall does not make you a better player. if it provides more exciting matches i dont see what the problem is. Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import. if you think you cannot beat someone because they are on adderall. take it yourself or get pwnd bro
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I don't think it should be allowed, but I don't want leagues/players being placed into drug screens after matches. It would be impossible to enforce except maybe at LAN events. (I said LAN...lol)
I guess what I'm saying is that it should be discouraged by the community. Of course if you actually use it for medication purposes that's fine but I will not be a fan of any player that uses these drugs solely to secure an advantage. I think it's bad sportsmanship if you try to secure an advantage with these types of drugs.
Now I won't pass judgement on players drinking MtDew or RedBull (hell they could be sponsored) but I still feel that its somewhat unsportsmanlike if you're only doing it to get an edge on the other player.
My bottom line: Don't place a ban the substances, however their use should be discouraged.
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I think that SC and all esports in general should be held to the same sporting code that other sports are held to face, especially if it wants mainstream acceptance.
If we look at the state of cycling and boxing currently, all of them have had doping problems, and have had spectacular falls for grace. People are ostracized and sometimes prosecuted from sports because of doping.
Testing may be difficult, but it needs to be done, especially as esports are exploding.
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You cant really a) enforce it and b)some (read most) were using it because they were prescribed it by a doctor to help with concentration.. so yes simply for those reasons..... also how much of an improvement would it really be? its not really the same thing as crystal meth ect..
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Hope Blizz doesn't find out I really want to keep my ladder wins.
On a more serious note I've taken adderall every day for the last.... 16 or so months and here's what I'll say. Does it give you an advantage? It sure does. If you get knocked out of a tournament by someone on adderall and you try to say "well if you didn't take adderall then you would have lost" then you're just an idiot. The advantage it brings to starcraft is nothing like steroids in baseball or anything like that. I would say the biggest advantage is that you could easily take one when you get tired and suddenly you wouldn't be tired anymore. As soon as tournaments become 24 hour events, go ahead and ban it. Until then, get a prescription for a legal drug.
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On April 06 2011 10:24 twstdletz wrote:
Of course people are abusing adderall in an environment like this, have you ever been in a college library at test time I'm not at all saying whether I think it is OK or not. I'm saying it is impossible to completely and practically enforce a standard, with the easy availability of abusable level amphetamine prescriptions. There are definately both legitimate and illegitimate users of medical amphetamine at EVERY event.
Funny you should mention something like this because I was thinking the same exact thing. I had a college roommate sophomore year who was on perscription adderall due to his ADHD. I never really thought anything of it, until he had a paper due or was studying to take a test. He would, purposefully, double down on his dosage so it would give him a mental boost to concentrate and study longer than, I would consider, possible under normal circumstances.
I never said anything, but when I thought about it, it would really bother me to know that, while he does put in hard work and dedication, he also uses drugs to get an advantage. Does anyone put a little asterisk next to his grades to denote that he used drugs to get ahead? Obviously not. So that means we can be compared on the same scale, and that was just not fair.
Still bothers me to this day.
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On April 06 2011 11:09 I_am_that_bad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:24 twstdletz wrote:
Of course people are abusing adderall in an environment like this, have you ever been in a college library at test time I'm not at all saying whether I think it is OK or not. I'm saying it is impossible to completely and practically enforce a standard, with the easy availability of abusable level amphetamine prescriptions. There are definately both legitimate and illegitimate users of medical amphetamine at EVERY event. Funny you should mention something like this because I was thinking the same exact thing. I had a college roommate sophomore year who was on perscription adderall due to his ADHD. I never really thought anything of it, until he had a paper due or was studying to take a test. He would, purposefully, double down on his dosage so it would give him a mental boost to concentrate and study longer than, I would consider, possible under normal circumstances. I never said anything, but when I thought about it, it would really bother me to know that, while he does put in hard work and dedication, he also uses drugs to get an advantage. Does anyone put a little asterisk next to his grades to denote that he used drugs to get ahead? Obviously not. So that means we can be compared on the same scale, and that was just not fair. Still bothers me to this day.
Does it bother you when people take proteins while working out as well?
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I can only speak from a Canadian legislative perspective on this (I am a practicing pharmacist in Canada) -- but if you are illegitimately obtaining and using amphetamines (such as Adderal, for example) without a prescription, you are contravening the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, which carries unpleasant legal ramifications. So if this describes an individual, I think they have more to worry about than computer games.
Of course I'm not naive enough to think the law will stop drug abusers from illegally obtaining and using, and although I haven't thought of it before, I'm not surprised people would try it in the context of competitive gaming. (Afterall it's my understanding students will use illegally obtained controlled substances to help them study/stay awake.)
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that whether or not these drugs will help a SC player is a matter of speculation or anecdotal evidence. So should we care? Of course -- I'm sure everyone agrees that we'd like our fellow competitors to not have an artificial edge due to cheating (everyone except for the cheaters, that is!). But what can we do?
Important points to consider:
- At least in Canada, Adderal, Ritalin, and other potentially abused psychostimulants also have legitimate uses and may be used by a Starcraft player who is being appropriately treated for his ADHD, for example.
- Strict enforcement, with testing, is obviously out of the question. Someone already touch on this. Too costly, time consuming, potential for excess drama and upsets... and we don't even clearly know what the measurable advantage is, if any!
So, they could make posted rules disallowing misuse of stimulant drugs (prescription and street), right? Perhaps. At worst, it would be a useless formality. At best, it would raise awareness of the issue and help create a culture of nonacceptance towards the practice.
tldr - The law already covers this; users gonna use, despite fact we don't really know the true advantage they get; and can't be enforced.
Now, understanding these facts and issues... what do we do??
Do we promote awareness of this and remain vigilant, watching for abuse? Point out and ostracize accused abusers (could lead to wrongful accusations and a whole tidal wave of disaster)??
Do we accept that this practice is a problem with (maybe??) just a select subset of individuals, preferring not to draw attention to the issue, lest it encourages more people to try and gain unfair advantages?
TL forum... discuss.
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On April 06 2011 11:01 Neo.NEt wrote:
On a more serious note I've taken adderall every day for the last.... 16 or so months and here's what I'll say. Does it give you an advantage? It sure does.
I'll bite. Are you taking Adderall for the treatment of ADHD? Or is this illegitimate use?
Because if it's the former... yes, someone with untreated ADHD will perform poorly on many mental-focus activities such as Starcraft.
And if it's the latter... dear god, every day? o_O
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On April 06 2011 11:16 Sixto wrote:
Does it bother you when people take proteins while working out as well?
Totally different. Everyone eats/needs dietary protein. With weight training your protein needs increase. Supplementing (usually a whey source) is totally legitimate, common, legal, and most importantly, accessible to everyone. Therefore it doesn't provide an unfair edge over other people.
Accessing drugs illegally is not something most people could or would normally do. Nor is it accepted practice in this situation. Try again.
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i think we shouldnt discuss this with out being experts and knowing exactly what the drugs do and how they would work in SC2 environment.
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On April 06 2011 10:16 cynical wrote:
I would say no as well but I can't see them implementing any sort of drug testing anytime soon. I can't see them making pro gamers piss into a cup to see if they have taken anything. That just sounds weird. Don't think e-sports has evolved enough to that point yet.
Could you imagine Idra?
Idra: "First, I want to ensure that there are no sixpools while I am using the bathroom."
Tournament Referee: "You aren't currently playing starcraft, idra."
Idra: "Good. That takes care of the first issue. Next, I demand that InControl guards the bathroom door against blink stalkers."
Ref: "You really aren't getting this are you, whitey?"
Idra: "APOLOGIZE FOR PLAYING THAT RACE... card."
Ref: "Are you going to ask me to bring in some corrupters to prevent them from massing VRs or carriers?"
Idra: "Predicting my next move? A very useful talent toi have."
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I agree with the poster above. We can all make speculations that adderall does improve your game based upon the concentration it provides, however without proper testing we can't gauge the effects of the drug during sc2 use. Which leads to the next question, how could we gauge it?
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"It was recently brought to my attention, by none other than FnaticMSITT1, that there are indeed Starcraft 2 players who regularly take performance enhancing drugs at tournaments, some of which are as high-profile as the GSL"
i never said anything about gsl lol, also this should be in the sc2 general section
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You know what, you've hurt esports more than anyone by making this stupid thread.
Aderall is not a performance-enhancing drug. It is a medication for people who suffer (and yes SUFFER) from ADD.
Stop belittling their condition, and stop spreading falsities about how it makes you better at starcraft. It doesn't.
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Why not ban healthy foods too, because they also increase your ability to focus.
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Yo.
First off, AFAIK there have been no studies that actually prove that these types of drugs make you a better starcraft player. So right off the bat, I would say there is no reason to ban them until those studies have been done.
Also, I can speak from my experience that the one time when Adderall is not in the least bit helpful is when I am doing something stressful (playing SC2 in the GSL would probably qualify). It turns out most of us have built in stimulant producers for when we need them. I can however say that Adderall would help me practice more but that is about it.
These drugs are not healthy and you should not take them unless you have a really good reason (disability). If you want to know why, read the warnings.
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Well isn't adderall a prescription drug? How do you know some doesn't have ADHD? They'd have to have "illegal" means to come across it no? I mean I can't just walk up to CVS or HEB right now and just say "hey pharmacist, give me some ADHD medicine". i have Lorezapam which while i was on regular dosage i did notice i was a lot more calm and precise(not getting hyped in the heat of the moment) but I also had a legitimate reason for it. Now I've got a supply that i only use when i Need, and SC2 is not a "need" basis :D
There is of course lying by showing the "symptoms" of ADHD to a doctor to get prescribed the medicine, that is a whole other story.
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I think that people shouldn't use it illegally to gain some type of advantage, but obviously if someone has ADD and is prescribed the drug, you can't really tell them they can't take it.
I need to find the study I read on adderall that even though it does increase the focus, it stifles the creativity part of the brain, which would probably be used in mid-late game scenarios. I don't think we will ever know how much taking adderall would improve someones play but it shouldn't be used in the first place.
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On April 06 2011 11:42 Tossy64 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 11:16 Sixto wrote:
Does it bother you when people take proteins while working out as well? Totally different. Everyone eats/needs dietary protein. With weight training your protein needs increase. Supplementing (usually a whey source) is totally legitimate, common, legal, and most importantly, accessible to everyone. Therefore it doesn't provide an unfair edge over other people. Accessing drugs illegally is not something most people could or would normally do. Nor is it accepted practice in this situation. Try again.
Actually you will get enough protein from a normal daily diet to make any additional protein supplement a waste of money... The amounts people consume through supplements can't be metabolized quickly enough and just end up leaving your body as waste anyway.
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Adderall in competitive gaming? Ofcourse that shouldn't be allowed!
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On April 06 2011 12:12 thesmoosh wrote:
You know what, you've hurt esports more than anyone by making this stupid thread.
Aderall is not a performance-enhancing drug. It is a medication for people who suffer (and yes SUFFER) from ADD.
Stop belittling their condition, and stop spreading falsities about how it makes you better at starcraft. It doesn't.
Adderall is often prescribed for the treatment of ADD/ADHD. However, many people without a prescription use it to improve their concentration and to keep their energy levels up. I used to use it occasionally in college to help me study for finals and bang out long (e.g. 20+ page) papers, and it was a godsend. It gives you a massive energy boost and hugely improves your concentration powers. YOu can focus on a single activity for 8+ hours with minimal breaks.
Those who are trying to say adderall is no different from caffeine clearly haven't tried adderall before. Caffeine is not even remotely in the same league as amphetamines like adderall.
I used to play CS 1.6 at a pretty high level. I was a very good player sober, but whenever I competed under the effects of adderall, I became a monster. It won't turn a bronze player into a high masters player, but for two otherwise equally matched players, the one who is on adderall will have a definite advantage in stamina and concentration.
It's also quite dangerous and easily abused. I strongly believe that players should be drug-tested for the major tournaments/leagues where it is practical (e.g. some local LAN won't be testing players, but the GSL should be). Perhaps it isn't practical today, but down the road it most likely will be.
Testing would not only ensure that players are on equal footing, but also help protect their health (as adderall is quite a dangerous drug and can easily be abused/lead to death from overdose, dehydration, lack of sleep, etc.)
Before posting your thoughts, I recommend reading the wikipedia article on the drug: Wiki article on Adderall
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On April 06 2011 11:29 Tossy64 wrote:
Important points to consider:
- At least in Canada, Adderal, Ritalin, and other potentially abused psychostimulants also have legitimate uses and may be used by a Starcraft player who is being appropriately treated for his ADHD, for example.
Of course this medicine has legitimate medical uses and some definitely need it. I am perscribed to take 40 mg of Adderal a day for ADD and I can definitely confirm in every way it is a performing enhancing drug. In traditional professional sports, even if you were ADD there is no way you would ever be allowed to take amphetamines before you play. You actually can't take it at all, you would be immediately fired if they drug tested you and found out you were taking it. There is actually all kinds of stuff athletes can't take that although it has legitimate medical uses, it's considered unfair for some to have it and others not and therefore banned.
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imagine how well you could play with NZT! :O
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Wow didn't know...
this should definitely be barred 
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I was prescribed adderal in the past, and I stopped taking it because, like virtually every psychiatric drug, it's massively over prescribed beyond it's very limited needful purpose, and is largely detrimental to your health. I'd love to see some hard research on it actual boosting your ability over the course of a career, before I proclaim that it actually had any significant long term benefit, and that research isn't going to be done.
That said, It can have diminishing returns, and this can cause problems given the competitive environment of pro gaming. If its abuse is really prevalent, and I don't see why it wouldn't be, given its rampant abuse on college campuses, it could be worth stamping out just due to the negative health consequences of dependency. It'd also be a good message.
I strongly doubt they'll really feel like taking on board that additional cost and logistical hassle, especially when it will only serve to draw attention to something that they would rather just leave in the background.
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insert HuK interview here
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Are there any studies that show they increase gameplay performance?
Like real studies .....with more than people's opinion.
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I dont want to pretend to know much about this so I will start with a question: Are the substances banned by most sports clubs also illegal to obtain normally?
My first thought to a topic like this is that it is completely retarded and should be removed by the mods... but if I were to approach it logically my thoughts are that any "drug" that a player may obtain lawfully should not be questioned and those found to be abusing substances obtained unlawfully should be punished/shunned. Using something for concentration in a SC2 compares to a Football/Soccer/Basketball player taking a painkiller or shot for a bad knee in terms of being frowned upon I think.
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In one of his dailies day9 said he plays much better with coffee, I've seen a few GSL players with coffee in the booth... It's a performance enhancing stimulant as Adderall is, perhaps not to the same extent, but because it's legally available/socially accepted no one brings it up. Trying to make any solid rules or judgments on this would be very hard I think.
I think this issue is interesting, but with how gray area, unenforceable and uncommon it (probably)is, I imagine it being left by the wayside unless some huge scandal happens.
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what exactly did TT1 say? may we know? concerning his past background I am skeptical...
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On April 06 2011 10:08 Tercotta wrote:
Absolutly not. It gives an advantage to whomever dopes. We do not want to encourage a situation where everyone takes drugs just to keep up, which can become a major health situation.
QFT, this pretty much sums my opinion.
Damn.. I didn't expect that this would actually exist on e-sports... That really sucks.
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I would think it would be pretty hard to regulate adderall as it is easy to get and legal.
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Of course we are gonna see predictable, one-sided poll results whenever we see any issue where people have an emotional knee-jerk reaction such as are common on the issue of drugs. Nothing is black and white, it is always a matter of degrees. You wouldn't punish a player for drinking coffe before a match? Even though it could provide an "unfair" advantage opposed to non-coffee drinkers?
Meh, sheeple aren't rational anyways... society says drugs are bad so the polls will say drugs are bad.
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I voted no. If you actually have a legit problem that is addressed with drugs, then thats fine. But using it only to enhance your performance like steroids in baseball should not be allowed. E-sports is a sport just like any other and having a fair playing environment is really important.
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No, but I know pretty much every sport ever has had pros use addy or similar drugs (I know it went around CS and Halo/MLG)
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On April 06 2011 13:11 ShooTouts wrote:
insert HuK interview here
Yeah... he was REALLY fidgety....
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Why does it matter? Are you going to test for it? No, you aren.t
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Aderall is not a performance-enhancing drug. It is a medication for people who suffer (and yes SUFFER) from ADD.
Stop belittling their condition, and stop spreading falsities about how it makes you better at starcraft. It doesn't.
Medications can enhance performance. Just because you suffer from something does not mean the medication does not more than make up for it...
Who's belittling their condition?
It's not a falsity if he says that someone told him that people do it, unless the person didn't actually say that.
Performance-enhancing drugs don't make you better at starcraft?
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On April 06 2011 13:21 Vykenos wrote:
I dont want to pretend to know much about this so I will start with a question: Are the substances banned by most sports clubs also illegal to obtain normally?
My first thought to a topic like this is that it is completely retarded and should be removed by the mods... but if I were to approach it logically my thoughts are that any "drug" that a player may obtain lawfully should not be questioned and those found to be abusing substances obtained unlawfully should be punished/shunned. Using something for concentration in a SC2 compares to a Football/Soccer/Basketball player taking a painkiller or shot for a bad knee in terms of being frowned upon I think.
Addy is easy to get since ADD is diagnosed so much, I know in Halo it was revealed that players just claimed they had ADD and got Adderall, so yes and no, it's legal over the counter.
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Everyone who actually thinks here, brought up a great point.
Are you going to test for caffeine also, its a drug also.
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hahahaha! steroid for gaming i was thinking about this a few days ago hahaha!!!! holy crap this is funny hahaha
it is cheating if pro athletes cant take steroids gamers cant take that. true true this SHOULD BE BROUGHT UP for rules!!!!
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On April 06 2011 10:14 Tercotta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No. How about the way it is enforced in every other sport.
So the people who need Adderall can not compete in Starcraft? Seems silly. I vote yes if you have a prescription.
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On April 06 2011 10:40 MaxPro wrote:
big misconception that adderall makes you better. Only thing it would do is help people concentrate the entire game without their mind slipping off the game and think about the crowd etc..
being a former halo pro i know that 85% of the pros take adderall consistently at tourneys and the owners know it. which is why tests will not be enforced at mlg. remember adderall does not make you a better player. if it provides more exciting matches i dont see what the problem is. Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import. if you think you cannot beat someone because they are on adderall. take it yourself or get pwnd bro
...You were a halo pro? I don't believe you. What was your tag.
And I thought gamers taking adderall to enhance their performance was common knowledge.
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You guys do realize how easy it is to get a prescription of Adderall right? So saying its ok if you have a prescription seems like a joke.
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I voted no but there's no drug tests or anything so there's no point in making a rule/law like that.
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when there is as much money on the line as there is at some of the big tournaments, it would be really disappointing to see drugs involved in competition. I dont want to accuse anyone of anything, but as it has already been mentioned, that huk interview was really strange. However, you cant really regulate the over use of caffeine either, and that definitely helps while gaming.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant#Caffeine
While I agree in theory that the so-called "stimulants" shouldn't be allowed, in the long run using them will only hurt the players. As someone who used caffeine products for a very long time and a lot, they actually hinder your thought process. After pretty much one day you have to start using them to just keep up your normal state of thought.
If you don't, you will get these headaches and.. stress I would say. This effect has caused me more harm on my intellectual process (studies etc) than anything else. And I'm talking about regular coffee, imagine what kind of mental harm stronger substances will do.
Yes for one day they will perform better, for like 6 hours, but after that they'll do more harm than good.
But I guess banning wouldn't hurt.
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On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
Don't make rules you can't or won't enforce. I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide -- it's a pain in the ass, costs money, and risks drama -- and without that, it's unenforceable.
This. Enforcing a rule like this is going to be a nightmare (do you really think that there are no gamers with ADD?), and it's not a good thing to have rules that are impossible to enforce, even if the intentions behind them are good.
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On April 06 2011 13:25 Golgotha wrote:
what exactly did TT1 say? may we know? concerning his past background I am skeptical...
i didnt say anything, me and the OP were having this conversation about PED's on fenix's stream and i suggested him to make a thread on TL so we can get everyones opinion on the matter, i never said anything about gsl rofl
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Strongly believe this needs a bump, my post is above...
EDIT: GSL was an odd stretch (thanks TT1), but the issue still remains as to how we decide to create what we want to call a sport. Will we allow what amounts to doping to propel our sport, or will we let ability take over?
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How exactly do you prove that the drug in question actually provides an unfair advantage.
SC2 is about decision making and brain powah!!, the drug may assist one person and totally wreck another player given how that person reacts to it.
It's not like it allows the body or muscles to do things a human normally couldn't which can easily be tested and proven.
Do professional Chess players get tested for mental stimulants?
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This is pretty unenforceable, is gsl, mlg, or nasl supposed to start giving their players urine tests? What about players that have legitimate prescriptions for adderall or ritalin (it's not exactly uncommon, particularly in the US). I can think of 2 friends of mine that take adderall. Are those people banned from competition? The whole thing kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
On the other hand, people take stimulants all the time (caffeine anyone), it's culturally engrained virtually everywhere. Adderall is probably on another level from that but I have no firsthand experience so it's hard to say.
Larger tournaments aside, with all the tournaments going on now, primarily online events, it might be something that we're just going to have to speculate happens rarely and hope it has a minimal to negligible impact
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I used to take medicine for ADD and a panic disorder. If I wasn't allowed to take any of my medicine before something as nerve racking as a big event game before I had my panic disorder and ADD under control like I do now, I would be a terrible mess. While some people may take these kinds of pills to boost concentration ect who shouldn't take them, there are a lot of us who have and still do take them because we use them to help us combat actual issues and symptoms that come with disorders. You're heart is in the right place but such a rule could never realistically be enforced.
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You need to work on your usage of bold, italics and underlines.
Also, where are your sources? You come here with your first post on this forum and just announce to use that high-profile players are taking adderall with absolutely nothing to back up your claims.
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I know that OGRE1 and ORGE2 always did a lot of adderal before MLG events.. heard that from someone who was actually on their team at one point. so I wouldnt doubt that its happening, and it will continue. Its pretty easy to get a prescription anyway.
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For E Sports, you really can't test this. We're not going to be taking random drug tests and forcing our players to pee into cups or submit to blood tests. But there should definitely be legislation stating that anyone caught doing it will be suspended then banned. It's not good for you (even if it isn't necessarily bad) and it gives you an unfair advantage.
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i voted no, i dont really like the idea and i think it only causes people to abuse the drugs without actually needing them. I would prefer there was some kind of drug testing but this point in e-sports life im afraid its very unlikely we will get any kind of rules against this stuff; especially since some top players (definitely not a norm) are taking some kinds of things like aderral or adderall to help their play.
this is coming from some1 who has had, and will continue to have huge nerve issues
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Yes we (especially you HuK) should stick to T-John's advice and just drink a lot of milk.
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You need to watch documentary movie "Frag" 63 min.
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What are the cognitive effects of stimulant medications? Emphasis on adults with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) by Claire Advokat. From the Journal of Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. doi: doi:10.1016/j.neubiorev.2010.03.006
Abstract: The relevant literature concerning cognitive effects of amphetamine and methylphenidate, was reviewed, with an emphasis on research conducted in adults diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. As first-line treatment for ADHD, stimulant drugs are well-known to improve attention and concentration. Yet, there is increasing evidence that (as with children and adolescents), they do not promote learning and academic achievement in adult college students with ADHD. A review of neuropsychological studies indicates that, although response latencies are reduced, performance of ADHD adults on tests of ‘distractibility’ and ‘planning’ is also not consistently improved by stimulants. Studies in non-ADHD adults suggest that stimulants do not promote acquisition of new information, might improve retention of previously acquired information, and facilitate memory consolidation, but may actually impair performance of tasks that require adaptation, flexibility and planning. It is still not clear if improvement only occurs when there is a baseline deficit. Stimulants may influence cognition by their effects on physiological arousal. Regardless, the evidence does not support the conclusion that stimulants are cognitive enhancers.
You cannot call them performance enhancing drugs until you demonstrate that they actually enhance performance. The current evidence suggests that these drugs will have a negative impact on performance in a game like Starcraft 2. First Person Shooters on the other hand may well benefit from their use.
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interview with a famous SC2 pro
woo!
laughs
Woo! WOO!
how do you feel ?
Woo really good I feel good I feel tired and good and I am going to do really well
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I can't imagine that taking drugs like Adderall would give you the same sort of performance enhancement that steroids would give to an athlete. Nevertheless I still don't think that they should be allowed to be used in tournaments just to keep everything as level a playing field as possible.
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This all seems a little silly. Everyone is blowing this out of proportion. This ISNT the same thing as steroids in sports or how old school sports was ripe with drug use *ahem baseball in the early 19th century*
From what I've seen from having a little brother who took aderrall AS well as being an avid FPS gamer. I saw 0 difference in him performance while gaming.. when you are big into gaming usually you have no issues actually concentrating.. so this really seems not like an actual performance enhancing drug.
A good note also is that there are many stimulants in the world.. the most abused drug in existence is completely legal (and happens to have many sponsors in the gaming world herp derp) which is caffeine which really we shouldn't be opening up that can of worms (personally i say let people do whatever they want with whatever the hell they want, its your life to screw up, we really dont have to spend money trying to inhibit drug use... but again thats a completely diff issue)
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I have ADD pretty badly.
When taking my ritalin, yes it helps with mutlitasking and not daydreaming in the middle of a game.
Drawback: My hands get very shaky, and it becomes more difficult to accurately control my mouse cursor. I find it hurts more than it helps. If i practice enough, I can execute a BO without ritalin and still have the calm/control needed to micro. If I'm all jacked up on ritalin/adderal i can't position my army quickly enough for it to matter in an epic showdown.
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On April 06 2011 14:58 sc14s wrote:
This all seems a little silly. Everyone is blowing this out of proportion. This ISNT the same thing as steroids in sports or how old school sports was ripe with drug use *ahem baseball in the early 19th century*
From what I've seen from having a little brother who took aderrall AS well as being an avid FPS gamer. I saw 0 difference in him performance while gaming.. when you are big into gaming usually you have no issues actually concentrating.. so this really seems not like an actual performance enhancing drug.
A good note also is that there are many stimulants in the world.. the most abused drug in existence is completely legal (and happens to have many sponsors in the gaming world herp derp) which is caffeine which really we shouldn't be opening up that can of worms (personally i say let people do whatever they want with whatever the hell they want, its your life to screw up, we really dont have to spend money trying to inhibit drug use... but again thats a completely diff issue)
the real reason that it is an advantage in SC2 tourneys is that it will keep you 100% awake and alert for 8 plus hours
its not going to make you play any better but you will have a distinct advantage over those people are are getting mentally exhausted
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On April 06 2011 15:01 ShooTouts wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 14:58 sc14s wrote:
This all seems a little silly. Everyone is blowing this out of proportion. This ISNT the same thing as steroids in sports or how old school sports was ripe with drug use *ahem baseball in the early 19th century*
From what I've seen from having a little brother who took aderrall AS well as being an avid FPS gamer. I saw 0 difference in him performance while gaming.. when you are big into gaming usually you have no issues actually concentrating.. so this really seems not like an actual performance enhancing drug.
A good note also is that there are many stimulants in the world.. the most abused drug in existence is completely legal (and happens to have many sponsors in the gaming world herp derp) which is caffeine which really we shouldn't be opening up that can of worms (personally i say let people do whatever they want with whatever the hell they want, its your life to screw up, we really dont have to spend money trying to inhibit drug use... but again thats a completely diff issue) the real reason that it is an advantage in SC2 tourneys is that it will keep you 100% awake and alert for 8 plus hours its not going to make you play any better but you will have a distinct advantage over those people are are getting mentally exhausted
However, just because you don't feel tired doesn't mean your performance isn't equally as shitty (or worse) as fatigue otherwise might make it.
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I think the use of drugs to influence one's mental state is absolutely fine. You, nor I, nor anyone can tell a person what kind of perspective they want to have.
The argument that a psychoactive drug is "performance enhancing" is faulty. Do we allow our players to drink coffee before tournaments? What about Marijuana? If they smoked in the last two weeks, they might test positive. What about Marijuana - right before the match? For some that would be a handicap. For me, I focus better with it.
It's fair if you let everyone do it, and some people would always perform worse under the influence of drugs while some would always perform better. Unless some proof can be shown that adderall or any other drug actually enhances performance beyond making someone "feel" in their comfort zone, I don't see what the problem is.
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To clarify:
1. TT1 never disclosed any specific information on any individual players (because he's nice) who allegedly take Adderall to improve their play.
2. TT1 never referenced any specific live tournaments at which he had witnessed the drugs being used; it was just assumed that, TT1 being a high-profile professional SC2 player, the drugs were being used at high-profile tournaments.
I am very glad to see so many of you passionately debating this issue! Keep it up!
TeKtoniK
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On April 06 2011 14:48 Nadir wrote:
What are the cognitive effects of stimulant medications? Emphasis on adults with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) by Claire Advokat. From the Journal of Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. doi: doi:10.1016/j.neubiorev.2010.03.006
Abstract: The relevant literature concerning cognitive effects of amphetamine and methylphenidate, was reviewed, with an emphasis on research conducted in adults diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. As first-line treatment for ADHD, stimulant drugs are well-known to improve attention and concentration. Yet, there is increasing evidence that (as with children and adolescents), they do not promote learning and academic achievement in adult college students with ADHD. A review of neuropsychological studies indicates that, although response latencies are reduced, performance of ADHD adults on tests of ‘distractibility’ and ‘planning’ is also not consistently improved by stimulants. Studies in non-ADHD adults suggest that stimulants do not promote acquisition of new information, might improve retention of previously acquired information, and facilitate memory consolidation, but may actually impair performance of tasks that require adaptation, flexibility and planning. It is still not clear if improvement only occurs when there is a baseline deficit. Stimulants may influence cognition by their effects on physiological arousal. Regardless, the evidence does not support the conclusion that stimulants are cognitive enhancers.
You cannot call them performance enhancing drugs until you demonstrate that they actually enhance performance. The current evidence suggests that these drugs will have a negative impact on performance in a game like Starcraft 2. First Person Shooters on the other hand may well benefit from their use.
Case close then.Important post, read it up.
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On April 06 2011 15:08 TeKtoniK wrote:
I am very glad to see so many of you passionately debating this issue! Keep it up!
TeKtoniK
On April 06 2011 15:08 TeKtoniK wrote:
I am very glad
TeKtoniK
On April 06 2011 15:08 TeKtoniK wrote:
glad
TeKtoniK
You just don't listen, do you?
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i dont really think that adderall really gives you a huge edge in an RTS. sure you can focus more, but these are professional gamers. maybe it would help you with grinding games when youre bored, but usually the downfall of a player isnt the fact that they didnt concentrate or memorize enough. its their mechanics or decision making skills, which adderall wouldnt help, probably only hurt.
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I really appreciate you thinking about this issue, ( or not an issue ) because it's going to be nice to compare the results we get from this poll, to results maybe 5 years down the road. IMO, people are going to be more lenient(sp??) now then they will be 5 years later when I hope e-sports is going to be huuuuge. Now I'm only 20 years old but I can assume people didnt think steroids were bad when they were introduced and didn't know the side effects? Not to sure on that one. But overall this is going to be interesting to hear peoples opinions.
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On April 06 2011 15:14 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 15:08 TeKtoniK wrote:
I am very glad to see so many of you passionately debating this issue! Keep it up!
TeKtoniK You just don't listen, do you?
The underline is used to emphasize the word! This is a forum, you need to use bold and italics interchangeably to get the attention of others!
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On April 06 2011 14:48 Nadir wrote:
What are the cognitive effects of stimulant medications? Emphasis on adults with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) by Claire Advokat. From the Journal of Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. doi: doi:10.1016/j.neubiorev.2010.03.006
Abstract: The relevant literature concerning cognitive effects of amphetamine and methylphenidate, was reviewed, with an emphasis on research conducted in adults diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. As first-line treatment for ADHD, stimulant drugs are well-known to improve attention and concentration. Yet, there is increasing evidence that (as with children and adolescents), they do not promote learning and academic achievement in adult college students with ADHD. A review of neuropsychological studies indicates that, although response latencies are reduced, performance of ADHD adults on tests of ‘distractibility’ and ‘planning’ is also not consistently improved by stimulants. Studies in non-ADHD adults suggest that stimulants do not promote acquisition of new information, might improve retention of previously acquired information, and facilitate memory consolidation, but may actually impair performance of tasks that require adaptation, flexibility and planning. It is still not clear if improvement only occurs when there is a baseline deficit. Stimulants may influence cognition by their effects on physiological arousal. Regardless, the evidence does not support the conclusion that stimulants are cognitive enhancers.
You cannot call them performance enhancing drugs until you demonstrate that they actually enhance performance. The current evidence suggests that these drugs will have a negative impact on performance in a game like Starcraft 2. First Person Shooters on the other hand may well benefit from their use. ^ This. I stopped my meds a month and a half a go. I went through a two-week withdrawal, which sucked, but then I came back to Starcraft 2 and played better than ever.
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a drug like adderall can be simulated by your own mind imo, i couldnt care less if other people did it, if i can beat a person on adderall how much better does that make me?
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what about the placebo effect? Has this been discussed at all... I guess I should read the post.
But what about people popping these pills, that now people are providing evidence for saying they would make you worse, but the placebo effect is enough to still make them feel better. Because psychologically the players feel more focused/calm simply because their brain is telling them they should since they just took the drug that does that.
also any1 who is talking about Steroids and the negative side effects needs to do some legitimate research on them. I am just saying, I guarentee you a lot of the things you think about steroids and their "negative effects" are completely false.
I don't use steroids, but I have friends who do. And I know people who have done a lot of research on them. just saying. (I don't feel required to comment any more on the steroids matter besides: do your research. over 90% of the common steroid negative side effects are complete BS manufactured by the media.)
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I don't believe they improve performance at all. Concentration is learned from hours upon hours of practice until execution is flawless, taking drugs like adderall will not help. The players who take adderall and other medicines may believe they help, but there is no evidence that they are actually beneficial.
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The problem with opinions is they are based on feelings and feelings are illusory. IE, one who takes a CNS depressant may not realize they are actually slower and may even feel faster. Once the effects of the depressant wear off and one actually analyzes the replays and does a comparison the truth is revealed.
No different from thinking you played an awesome game and then in analyzing the replay you find you didn't play as great as you thought you did. Does taking Adderall instantly make you a better starcraft player? No one can say for certain, and until that question is answered this really is a non-issue. To think that one can of mt. dew was the difference between victory and defeat seems pretty short-sighted. Perhaps marketing of these "game fuels" has been taken a bit too seriously.
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I was diagnosed with ADHD at a young age, and have taken adderall/ritalin since about 3rd grade. Since about 10th grade I have weened my self off of it and can mostly function with out it. I still find it hard to concentrate at times, as well as being very easily distracted and I routinely procrastinate(doign that right now with college essay, lol).
That having been said, I still ahve a prescripition from my doctor for them that I get filled about twice a year. i take my pills if I have a large final that I need to be focused for, if their is an important essay that I need to finish(like right now x.x) or if I needed to concentrate for an important series in dota/hon/sc2. Some would say that this makes me a cheater, but i prefer to think of it as me putting myself on a even playing field with everyone else.
EDIT: and just as a FYI, I do find that I play/do/test better when I have taken my meds, but I do not like having to rely on a outside source to be at my best, so I do it as little as possible.
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Lot of thread about this, for sure drugs can help u awake, but some of them will make u forget critical thing, " my micro so good lol, i take 3 of ur unit for 1 for mine haha, well i need to upgrade weapon now, wtf why half my main is dead ? "
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There is no doubt Adderall is performance enhancing,
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Adderall
Combination of
Dextroamphetamine Psychostimulant
Levoamphetamine Psychostimulant
Adderall is a brand-name psychostimulant medication composed of racemic amphetamine aspartate monohydrate, racemic amphetamine sulfate, dextroamphetamine saccharide, and dextroamphetamine sulfate, which is thought by scientists to work by increasing the amount of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain. In addition, the drug also acts as a potent dopamine reuptake inhibitor and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.[1] Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, increase libido, increase concentration and overall cognitive performance, and, in general, improve mood, while decreasing user fatigue.[citation needed] It is available in two formulations: IR (Instant Release) and XR (Extended Release). The immediate release formulation is indicated for use in Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and narcolepsy,[2] while the XR formulation is approved for use only with ADHD.[1]
Like other powerful stimulant drugs, such as methamphetamine and cocaine, Adderall directly affects the mesolimbic reward pathway in the brain. Because of this, Adderall has a relatively high potential for abuse and addiction, especially if the drug is misused.
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Thought this thread will be dated April 1st...
Anyhow, i think its a bit early to ask for urine samples from competitors for esports competitions don't you?
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This existed in BW?
edit: this may be just what i need in my upcoming bw finals bwwwaaaahahaha!.
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This was common in Halo and Super Smash. It turned out that a lot of the people that took Adderall that the rumors were spread about, were prescribed it. That was not always the case, but it happened more often than it being illegal performance-enhancing drug.
Honestly I don't think there is a steroid for e-sports possible.
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On April 06 2011 15:42 annaky wrote:
There is no doubt Adderall is performance enhancing,
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Adderall
Combination of
Dextroamphetamine Psychostimulant
Levoamphetamine Psychostimulant
Adderall is a brand-name psychostimulant medication composed of racemic amphetamine aspartate monohydrate, racemic amphetamine sulfate, dextroamphetamine saccharide, and dextroamphetamine sulfate, which is thought by scientists to work by increasing the amount of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain. In addition, the drug also acts as a potent dopamine reuptake inhibitor and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.[1] Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, increase libido, increase concentration and overall cognitive performance, and, in general, improve mood, while decreasing user fatigue.[citation needed] It is available in two formulations: IR (Instant Release) and XR (Extended Release). The immediate release formulation is indicated for use in Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and narcolepsy,[2] while the XR formulation is approved for use only with ADHD.[1]
Like other powerful stimulant drugs, such as methamphetamine and cocaine, Adderall directly affects the mesolimbic reward pathway in the brain. Because of this, Adderall has a relatively high potential for abuse and addiction, especially if the drug is misused.
So you see a journal article from Neuroscience and Biobehavioural Review and your counter it with a wikipedia page. Do you see the bit where it says "citation needed"? That means there is no evidence to back this up.
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I can't find the link, but last year when I was signing up to compete in MLG I read somewhere in their documentation that they prohibit the use of all substances banned by the World Doping Agency.
Of course, they're not piss testing anyone so that doesn't mean very much.
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I don't think this has been touched on too much, but I have taken aderall a few times to pull all-nighters in school, and one benefit that hasn't been touched on too much is it's affect on fatigue. Whenever I have taken any of these ADHD meds, besides feeling like I can concentrate on a single task better (I guess research isn't conclusive on this) the drug absolutely wipes away all tiredness from your body for a few hours. This could be a huge advantage in a bo7 format with long macro games where pure fatigue plays a large role.
That being said, doesn't caffeine boost concentration and raise alertness levels / eliminate fatigue? How about those free energy drinks passed out at every major tournament? Just saying that most of us use cognitive enhancers, the only real difference I can see is that aderall is a prescription medication so their are legal ramifications.
Personally though, aderall always made me get stuck on doing small things perfectly making papers come out over-researched or specific sentences worked and reworked. This seems to me the opposite effect that a player wants when multitasking in Starcraft.
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On April 06 2011 15:42 annaky wrote:
There is no doubt Adderall is performance enhancing,
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Adderall
Combination of
Dextroamphetamine Psychostimulant
Levoamphetamine Psychostimulant
Adderall is a brand-name psychostimulant medication composed of racemic amphetamine aspartate monohydrate, racemic amphetamine sulfate, dextroamphetamine saccharide, and dextroamphetamine sulfate, which is thought by scientists to work by increasing the amount of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain. In addition, the drug also acts as a potent dopamine reuptake inhibitor and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.[1] Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, increase libido, increase concentration and overall cognitive performance, and, in general, improve mood, while decreasing user fatigue.[citation needed] It is available in two formulations: IR (Instant Release) and XR (Extended Release). The immediate release formulation is indicated for use in Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and narcolepsy,[2] while the XR formulation is approved for use only with ADHD.[1]
Like other powerful stimulant drugs, such as methamphetamine and cocaine, Adderall directly affects the mesolimbic reward pathway in the brain. Because of this, Adderall has a relatively high potential for abuse and addiction, especially if the drug is misused.
This is a perfect example as to why wikipedia is not an academic resource(the references might be, but of course what you bolded is not referenced).
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On April 06 2011 15:01 ShooTouts wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 14:58 sc14s wrote:
This all seems a little silly. Everyone is blowing this out of proportion. This ISNT the same thing as steroids in sports or how old school sports was ripe with drug use *ahem baseball in the early 19th century*
From what I've seen from having a little brother who took aderrall AS well as being an avid FPS gamer. I saw 0 difference in him performance while gaming.. when you are big into gaming usually you have no issues actually concentrating.. so this really seems not like an actual performance enhancing drug.
A good note also is that there are many stimulants in the world.. the most abused drug in existence is completely legal (and happens to have many sponsors in the gaming world herp derp) which is caffeine which really we shouldn't be opening up that can of worms (personally i say let people do whatever they want with whatever the hell they want, its your life to screw up, we really dont have to spend money trying to inhibit drug use... but again thats a completely diff issue) the real reason that it is an advantage in SC2 tourneys is that it will keep you 100% awake and alert for 8 plus hours its not going to make you play any better but you will have a distinct advantage over those people are are getting mentally exhausted
so why not just quaff caffeine pills all day? you will be as alert (if not more)
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It's mental steriods. It shouldn't be allowed because it would enhance and become the norm for players to abuse this substance.
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A.D.D is a protected disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act (1990) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990)
If someone has a prescription for a medication they should be allowed to take it while competing.
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Why is there even a poll asking us whether something illegal should be allowed in SC2? Of course I'm talking about those who don't have a prescription, which is undoubtedly the vast majority of pro SC2 players.
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On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No.
"Piss in this cup while we watch, if you don't your out of the league."
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On April 06 2011 16:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Why is there even a poll asking us whether something illegal should be allowed in SC2? Of course I'm talking about those who don't have a prescription, which is undoubtedly the vast majority of pro SC2 players.
Just wondering what you base your assumption on?
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On April 06 2011 16:57 raid3n wrote:
If someone has a prescription for a medication they should be allowed to take it while competing.
One would hope so.
I have ADD and I've been prescribed medication for it. It doesn't make a huge difference in my play - not any more than a cup of coffee would. What it do notice is that I can play more games in a session than when I'm not on the medication.
For reference like asthma inhalers are considered doping in track & field or swimming unless you have a prescription.
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I vote no - more as a purpose of trying to avoid kids from taking this drug (when, of course, no prescribed) and avoid addiction/abuse/side effects, then being offended by uneven play / what have you.
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People with ADD using adderall is a side issue and is not relevant to this debate. If the drug is performance enhancing, then to compete at a top level it is an advantage to use a drug; it is also possibly dangerous, way more so than caffeine, and not something you want dependence on. If both of those are true, you might gravitate towards a situation where there is pressure on top players to use a drug (in an illegal way?). - not counting people with actual ADD, of course, but there are doctor statements for that.
Enforcing might not be reasonable, but if the assumptions are correct, I would imagine they should at least try.
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i can Imagine the headlines now GSL WINNER BANNED FOR LIFE FOR PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS
I agree if it really is a advantage and money is on the line i would like to be blood/urine tests on the players but the problem is i know someone who has Attention deficit disorder and if im not mistaken they take adderall for the condiction what would happen if he started playing starcraft and decided to compete? would you not allow it? would you have him in a Gsl booth making paper airoplanes messing with hes shoelace whilst trying to compete
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On April 06 2011 17:04 Danjoh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 16:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Why is there even a poll asking us whether something illegal should be allowed in SC2? Of course I'm talking about those who don't have a prescription, which is undoubtedly the vast majority of pro SC2 players. Just wondering what you base your assumption on?
I'm just assuming that the percentage of SC2 players with ADHD is roughly similar to the percentage of the general population that has it.
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I think we need antidoping for the higher level tournaments, just like in any other sport.
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On April 06 2011 17:25 TrANCE, wrote:
i can Imagine the headlines now GSL WINNER BANNED FOR LIFE FOR PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS
I agree if it really is a advantage and money is on the line i would like to be blood/urine tests on the players but the problem is i know someone who has Attention deficit disorder and if im not mistaken they take adderall for the condiction what would happen if he started playing starcraft and decided to compete? would you not allow it? would you have him in a Gsl booth making paper airoplanes messing with hes shoelace whilst trying to compete
He can show a doctor statement that he has to use the medication. It's so easy to solve this problem, that it's not really relevant to the debate of actual top players using adderall to improve performance.
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On April 06 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 15:01 ShooTouts wrote:On April 06 2011 14:58 sc14s wrote:
This all seems a little silly. Everyone is blowing this out of proportion. This ISNT the same thing as steroids in sports or how old school sports was ripe with drug use *ahem baseball in the early 19th century*
From what I've seen from having a little brother who took aderrall AS well as being an avid FPS gamer. I saw 0 difference in him performance while gaming.. when you are big into gaming usually you have no issues actually concentrating.. so this really seems not like an actual performance enhancing drug.
A good note also is that there are many stimulants in the world.. the most abused drug in existence is completely legal (and happens to have many sponsors in the gaming world herp derp) which is caffeine which really we shouldn't be opening up that can of worms (personally i say let people do whatever they want with whatever the hell they want, its your life to screw up, we really dont have to spend money trying to inhibit drug use... but again thats a completely diff issue) the real reason that it is an advantage in SC2 tourneys is that it will keep you 100% awake and alert for 8 plus hours its not going to make you play any better but you will have a distinct advantage over those people are are getting mentally exhausted so why not just quaff caffeine pills all day? you will be as alert (if not more)
Caffeine pills make you jittery. There's plenty of other drugs that can stave off mental exhaustion without giving you the jitters, though. Modafinil, for example, is a very popular study drug because it allows you to work with perfect mental clarity for about 24-36 hours. Fighter jet pilots take it before taking off. I could probably name another 10-15 pills that would improve a persons cognitive abilities. Adderall isn't the only pill in town.. It is, however, the best!
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oh god, try playing sc2 on adderall sometime, it's the most exhausting thing on earth. it isn't perfomance enhancing; sc2 isn't a calm study session.
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He can show a doctor statement that he has to use the medication. It's so easy to solve this problem, that it's not really relevant to the debate of actual top players using adderall to improve performance
Thats my point suddenly every sc2 pro player contracts A,D,D
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On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes.
and that's why runners without legs (and with metallic futuristic super legs) have special competitions and their records are not written into the book of records.. since they're faster than normal runners.
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Again, the current evidence is that methylphenidate does not improve your performance at Starcraft 2. So why is this an issue at all?
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I see nothing inherently wrong with people taking performance enhancing or other psychoactive drugs for most purposes.
However, just for the peace-of-mind for the fans, consistency, enjoyability of a sport/esport it would be best if psychoactive drug use was prohibited in big tournaments.
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IMHO people should be allowed to put/do whatever they want to their own bodies...it's quite redic for someone else to tell somebody what they can and can't put in their own self. In a perfect society people would think for themselves and leave everybody else alone, but you know. As far as competition is concerned I think performance enhancing should be encouraged on all levels. I also think that if you are willing to put foreign chemicals in your body you should research thoroughly, and treat all drugs with respect. Any drug from caffiene to steroids to advil can be dangerous if abused. Live and let dope.
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this is the most ridiculous thread ever
Yeah HuK downing a few pills of xanax to quell his nerves might help a little bit, at the same time it has it's own adverse reaction in slowing his brain down. I really doubt that drugs would help you play SC2 better or even practice better.
Being in shape
eating healthy
getting good sleep
meditating/relaxing/getting a massage(an ma)
there are like a million ways to improve your concentration/recharge other than taking a pill that are way more positive.
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As it is an intelectual sport, if you begin to ban ANYTHING that improves your awarness, you're off tho forbiding coffee and make players drink only water for 2 days before their matches, in fear of being controlled positive...
It's really hard to determine the difference between «cheating» and «playing in the best conditions».
Therefore I won't vote with such simplistic options in the poll.
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How do you stop people from using this?
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Unless you're playing all-day SC2 marathons, the advantage isn't big enough to actually make a difference. It is not at all comparable to steroids. Knee-jerk reaction to the question is no, but IMO it's kind of stupid what is being suggested by the Wikipedia experts.
If you're going to test for Adderall, then on basis of moral, you're going to have to test for all drugs that supposedly enhance mental concentration (ritalin and concerta off the top of my head) and give an edge. Energy drinks will do basically the same thing.
Not only is whether the drugs actually make you play significantly better is still conjecture, how feasible do you think this is? Like other have mentioned, how do you separate those that actually need it and those that don't? Should we also not allow people to have good diets or read? That also supposedly improves mental concentration.
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On April 06 2011 13:21 Vykenos wrote:
I dont want to pretend to know much about this so I will start with a question: Are the substances banned by most sports clubs also illegal to obtain normally?
My first thought to a topic like this is that it is completely retarded and should be removed by the mods... but if I were to approach it logically my thoughts are that any "drug" that a player may obtain lawfully should not be questioned and those found to be abusing substances obtained unlawfully should be punished/shunned. Using something for concentration in a SC2 compares to a Football/Soccer/Basketball player taking a painkiller or shot for a bad knee in terms of being frowned upon I think.
As an example, in skeeing there are some medication for asma that are banned, but if you prove you have asma and notify the people in charge of the tournament beforehand it can be allowed. I'd say it's more on that level than simply painkillers that athletes use all the time.
Also I'm a bit baffles that some people can't see the difference in taking drugs and simply eating well...
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I think allowing stim is enough.
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Let them eat ...drugs.
Voted yes, I don't think there's a realistic way to control it anyway.
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On April 06 2011 18:10 mr_tolkien wrote:
As it is an intelectual sport, if you begin to ban ANYTHING that improves your awarness, you're off tho forbiding coffee and make players drink only water for 2 days before their matches, in fear of being controlled positive...
It's really hard to determine the difference between «cheating» and «playing in the best conditions».
Therefore I won't vote with such simplistic options in the poll.
line is crossed when its not needed drugs. pretty simple.
its not a question if you could improve your play by taking the right stuff. from all the way overused performance drugs they give out like candy these days over simple speed to cocaine. but that should in no way be promoted or even allowed.
On April 06 2011 19:23 Novalisk wrote:
First it must be proven that an advantage is indeed given.
Drug control isn't cheap.
if you question this then you have no clue sorry. thats like questioning if beer makes you piss more. you dont need research to proof it when evryone who has any expirience with it can tell you its true ~.
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First it must be proven that an advantage is indeed given.
Drug control isn't cheap.
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Yea ban Adderal. And while you're at it, ban Red Bull too. And sugar. And long walks in the park the night before the game.
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On April 06 2011 19:28 acidfreak wrote:
Yea ban Adderal. And while you're at it, ban Red Bull too. And sugar. And long walks in the park the night before the game.
you cant see the difference between performance enhancing drugs and sugar?
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Long time lurker. First time poster. Kinda a strange thread to jump in on I guess but here it goes...
I have been diagnosed with ADHD and have been prescribed Adderall. The past couple months I have not been taking any Adderall so I know what it is like to play Starcraft with and without Adderall. I can only speak from personal experience but I can honestly say that it doesn't make a noticeable difference in my level of play in Starcraft or any other game. In fact, I have been playing considerably better in the last month or two than I ever have(Not that I think the Adderall ever held me back, I have just learned more about the game and practiced better).
Adderall helps me focus on things that I otherwise have trouble focusing on like school or anything that bores me. But when I am playing Starcraft, I naturally focus intensely on the game. The only thing I have noticed is that I get mentally tired sooner. The result is that I can't seem to play quite as many games all in one sitting as I could when I was taking my prescription. I suppose that could be a significant advantage in some tournaments, but a cup or two of coffee has a big enough effect to curb mental fatigue for me.
If I was good enough to be competing at a high level, I don't think focusing on a big tournament game would be a problem. In fact I think I would have a problem more along the lines of Huk(Who I actually saw and talked to last weekend in Dallas. He was certainly jittery). I would be more stimulated than I already needed to be and taking any Adderall would probably do more harm than good. I don't think that any pill is going to make me or anybody else a better player or be able to give any significant competitive edge. Until somebody can prove otherwise, it seems silly to be discussing making players pee in a cup at every LAN tournament.
Oh and one more thing. I think you might be surprised at how many pro gamers might actually have ADHD. Obviously nobody has any numbers so its only speculation, but people with ADHD actually tend to be able to focus considerably more intensely than most people can on the few things that interest them the most. It would be a shame to start telling those players that are prescribed medications for a condition that they can't compete or that they need a letter from a medical professional to be allowed to compete.
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On April 06 2011 19:23 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 18:10 mr_tolkien wrote:
As it is an intelectual sport, if you begin to ban ANYTHING that improves your awarness, you're off tho forbiding coffee and make players drink only water for 2 days before their matches, in fear of being controlled positive...
It's really hard to determine the difference between «cheating» and «playing in the best conditions».
Therefore I won't vote with such simplistic options in the poll. line is crossed when its not needed drugs. pretty simple. its not a question if you could improve your play by taking the right stuff. from all the way overused performance drugs they give out like candy these days over simple speed to cocaine. but that should in no way be promoted or even allowed. Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 19:23 Novalisk wrote:
First it must be proven that an advantage is indeed given.
Drug control isn't cheap. if you question this then you have no clue sorry. thats like questioning if beer makes you piss more. you dont need research to proof it when evryone who has any expirience with it can tell you its true ~.
I posted a meta-analysis from a freakin neuroscience journal that says the assumption that these drugs would give you an advantage is false on the strength of the evidence available. Are you ignoring it or just not reading it?
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I feel like implementing a rule like that with no chance of reinforcing it would only undermine laws, rules and regulations in general, so I votes "Yes".
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It seems to me that performance enhancing drugs have less of an effect in Starcraft or other e-sports than, say, steroids do in baseball or football. It's like there's a lower ceiling for drug-aided skill enhancement.
For instance, I used to follow the Halo scene a bit, and it was well known that some top players took adderall, some players took xanax. Even more crazily, there were some pros rumored to often play drunk/high. It didn't really seem to matter though. It was almost like they preferred to play in a certain state of mind, but clearly no team rose to the top because one drug-enhanced player seperated himself from the pack. There was no Barry Bonds.
Until we start hearing about players making massive leaps in improvement when they use, I doubt it'll be an issue like other sports.
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Long post deleted, aderall gives a competitive advantage in esports.
It did the same in college, big exam time pop a couple aderalls and you catch up no problem.
It's unhealthy, it won't make a bad player good but it may ensure a good player plays well.
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I use to take Adderall and played video games on it.
There are 2 noticeable things that it gives an advantage with:
First is confidence. You gain more confidence with it, this could help with people who nervous in matches, but it's not 100% confidence. When playing important matches and such I would still get nervous and sometimes choke in the games I played. So it didn't seem to completely nullify personal problems.
Second is training.
This is where it REALLY comes in handy. You can play for 14 hours a day and not get bored or feel the need to stop. The thing with Adderall is that the focus makes anything almost "addictive". You never want to stop and you feel no need to stop.
So all in all, from my personal experiences, both advantages of Adderall are things that aren't impossible for people not taking it to achieve through practice.
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On April 06 2011 13:47 Atrophy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:40 MaxPro wrote:
big misconception that adderall makes you better. Only thing it would do is help people concentrate the entire game without their mind slipping off the game and think about the crowd etc..
being a former halo pro i know that 85% of the pros take adderall consistently at tourneys and the owners know it. which is why tests will not be enforced at mlg. remember adderall does not make you a better player. if it provides more exciting matches i dont see what the problem is. Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import. if you think you cannot beat someone because they are on adderall. take it yourself or get pwnd bro ...You were a halo pro? I don't believe you. What was your tag. And I thought gamers taking adderall to enhance their performance was common knowledge.
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/learn-about-the-old-spice-rising-star-nominees
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Its fine, they should be allowed to take whatever they want.
Anyone watch tour de france? Every year you can be 100% sure the winner is on drugs and every year is filled with scandals. What the fuck do they expect is going to happens when you set a human being to ride 250km through mountains every day for a month.
I say make it legal in all sports, let them go crazy with it. There isnt much to do about it anyway and making drug tests etc. will only make a sport look worse, because people will still do it and some will get cought.
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On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
Don't make rules you can't or won't enforce. I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide -- it's a pain in the ass, costs money, and risks drama -- and without that, it's unenforceable.
Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. Needless to say, nobody has publicly tested or measured anyone's video gaming performance under Adderall or any other nootropics in a controlled environment, and nobody understands the mechanism and effects of these sorts of drugs well enough to say exactly what they are and are not going to help you with.
This is exactly right. I'm relieved to see that someone already said it more succinctly than I would have!
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Problem is that this is banned in many countries, for example sweden.
There is no way of legally get your hands on Adderall here, thus making a pretty unfair advantage for the ones who actually can?
As long as its not available to all players, it should not be allowed.
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This thread is giving me deja vu.
I don't know why.
One point I would like to hit on before I go to bed is I find it to be bullshit that people keep bashing TT1 over and over again.
The guy making his first post, Acaraliel or whatever his name is, hit a few points I agree with and I will reiterate the gist of what he said. Speed probably won't make you play better, in fact I would assume it would impair your overall cost efficiency and cognitive abilities, but it most certainly would allow you the energy to get more games in.
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I don't know how I should react to this... I think a better poll would have been:
Should psychostimulant medication (like Adderall) be disallowed?
I mean should we search for this product in players? Should we ban/punish players for using it? Because in my eyes we can only do two things:
1) Not search for the product.
2) Very, very actively search for the product and punish players who take it severely.
There is no road between that. I think it is better to simply allow this product. Otherwise we will get a mess.
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Some observations:
Professional sports ban some drugs regardless of prescription status. Prescription or not, if you use them, you can't play. Other drugs are forbidden without a prescription but permitted with them -- the deciding factor is usually whether they're believed or known to enhance performance (such as injected anabolic steroids) or simply render a drug test positive without enhancing performance (such as inhaled corticosteroids for asthma.)
To those who say a prescription means using a drug is OK in a competitive context: abuse of prescription drugs is widespread, and often involves getting a prescription under false pretenses. Of course, prescription drugs that are susceptible to abuse are often diverted or illegally purchased, also.
To those who say "caffeine is widely available, and it's not banned!": That's true, caffeine is perfectly legal and widely available. It also has virtually no severe adverse side effects and an LD50 that is so high that it's nearly impossible to take in that much in any commonly available form. Also, it's not necessary to skirt the law or behave deceptively to use caffeine, so each person is freely able to decide whether and how much to take in.
Prescription drugs like Adderall are significantly more hazardous under conditions of misuse, are much less well-understood, and may or may not enhance performance in such a way as to affect game results. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter whether they actually enhance performance, if players feel the need to abuse such drugs illegally (either by obtaining a prescription under false pretenses, or by acquiring it without a prescription) because they believe they need to do so to keep up.
All that said, from what has happened in professional sports, history suggests that tournament organizers have a motivation to turn a blind eye to abuse of these drugs until and unless outside pressure forces them to address the problem. For example, baseball didn't address the issue until the authorities took an interest. Testing is costly and complicates the relationship with players.
My personal view is that regardless of actual effectiveness at enhancing performance, and regardless of the feasibility of establishing widespread testing, tournaments should probably state that the use of any controlled substances, with the intent to enhance performance, outside the parameters of a valid prescription obtained in good faith, is forbidden. The reason is that doing so establishes a standard for behavior among competitors that makes clear that doing so will not be accepted within the community.
The truth is that establishing such a norm has value in itself, whether it's systematically enforceable or not. It would give people who are on the fence about doing so another reason to decide not to. Even without testing, it may deter someone who's concerned about being turned in by another participant who's aware of what they're doing. And, it takes a stand against players self-medicating without a doctor's involvement.
As for the question of people being too readily diagnosed with ADD by their doctors, that's kind of a bigger problem in the medical community and beyond what a tournament organizer can really be expected to take on.
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i skipped a few pages but as someone who has taken adderol a couple times, and in high school/college i knew atleast 5 people with prescriptions and 5 more without that took it regularily without a prescription and it definately gives you incredible concentration advantage even if you have a prescription.
some people may think concentration drugs make someone with a prescription (lets say better concentration better than 25% of people) into a 'normal' person (better concentration than 50% of people) but its more like someone with 25% turns into someone with 90% concentration.
like 6 years ago when i was playing war3, i had a rl friend who was like top 2000 solo who didint own a computer and only played war3 at my house sometimes, i was a top 300 solo player on the same server. on adderol he could actually play better than me if i coached him on what to do (obviously adderol wont teach him which strats to do when he doesnt play that much). he would easily make 30% less bad decisions and increases his apm from like 50 to 100.
i realise this sounds insane to anyone who hasent taken adderol before but i highly suggest you try it if you think im bullshitting, i only took adderol twice in my life, to take tests, and i can tell you as a normal person on adderol, 2 6 hour tests felt like a breeze.
to be perfectly honest im fine with people playing on adderol. id rather see the best play and i dont think adderol is particularily harmful and people would play better games if they were on it. but if theres something stronger i dont know about (besides meth obviously) people probably shouldent be allowed to play on that. and dont underestimate this type of drug if youve never tried it.
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On April 06 2011 19:43 MaxPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 13:47 Atrophy wrote:On April 06 2011 10:40 MaxPro wrote:
big misconception that adderall makes you better. Only thing it would do is help people concentrate the entire game without their mind slipping off the game and think about the crowd etc..
being a former halo pro i know that 85% of the pros take adderall consistently at tourneys and the owners know it. which is why tests will not be enforced at mlg. remember adderall does not make you a better player. if it provides more exciting matches i dont see what the problem is. Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import. if you think you cannot beat someone because they are on adderall. take it yourself or get pwnd bro ...You were a halo pro? I don't believe you. What was your tag. And I thought gamers taking adderall to enhance their performance was common knowledge. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/learn-about-the-old-spice-rising-star-nominees
So what you are saying is that having better concentration doesn't make you better it just makes you better? I'm quite sure that if all football players took drugs 24/7 they would also give more exciting games since they will be able to endure a whole match better and not get as worn down.
Silly argument.
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I'm not a medical expert or a pharmacist, but I believe psychoactive drugs are relatively harmless when compared to physiological centered once. My point is: drugs to help concentration are very very common (Ritalin). If the argument that these will cause health problems arises, then I challenge you to figure out why Ritalin and other A.D.D. medication is so widely used to correct concentration disorders.
Most of all, this is a game based around having fun. Which really is the reason that brings me to say No on this topic, shit shouldn't be allowed in competition.
But I wouldn't bother spending money to enforce this. Drug law enforcement: This old pony, I don't know how many times I have been told that enforcing constraints on people will only tempt them to jump that velvet rope to the forbidden fruit. People will just not want to do it if nobody cares right?...
How do you get a troll to stop trolling?.... stop caring and stop posting.(not saying this thread is a troll)
How do you get a drug abuser to stop abusing?.... stop caring and stop talking about it. He will figure it out soon enough.
In conclusion, I believe that If a player thinks he does not have the capacity to block out his surroundings and concentrate he should have just as much right to as a school child who makes paper airplanes during a test.
/I hope it makes sense.
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considering how easy it is to get a rx for this stuff, i don't see how you can enforce it while not hurting those who "legitimately" need it. compare to banned steroids, which you can't just get.
in the US there are lots of shitbag doctors that just hand this stuff out like candy, because they know word will go around and they will get more business if they are known for easily prescribing it.
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I disagree there shouldn't be a rule in place just because you can't enforce it. Drug testing costs money, lots of it, and esports is very new as it. In some theoretical world where PEDs actually become a problem testing for them is very much in the distant future when esports has much more money in it. However, the point and logic of banning PEDs is to protect the players -- the idea being, if they are legal, and they provide an advantage, it will be impossible to compete at a top level without taking them yourself and everyone will be forced into it.
Adderall is not the only potential drug. Adderall (or similar) would be useful for practice, or perhaps confidence, or to deal with the exhaustion of playing a long day and/or playing on the road where you're not sleeping well. The idea that it's applications to Starcraft are similar to applications for studying are not accurate. ADD "sufferers" do not have a "lack" of concentration -- it's better to explain they can't control their concentration well and get bored easily. Environments that increase the intensity or stress level tend to also hold the person with ADD's attention. Starcraft is obviously one of those things. Michael Phelps is a pretty famous example of someone with ADD (drug free, swimming got his focus and helped his symptoms).
Anxiety meds or beta blockers can also help people deal with nervousness and anxiety associated with competing.
I think a gentleman's rule is appropriate and will be sufficient for SC. Starcraft has always been the neglected esport. Videogames don't attract the most civilized crowd but SC is as much of an exception as there is. In every LAN/tournament I've been to (long ago), you could ALWAYS spot the Starcraft players. They were in the back, joking, getting along, being good sports, sharing the 4 computers they were allotted vs. the dozens for FPS, while FPS players (not all of them) yelled, swore, talked trash, threatened each other, etc. Simply making the statement that medicating yourself solely to improve your Starcraft skill is not kosher is good enough. Some people will have RL needs and be medicated. That's OK. Some people will ignore that rule and take whatever to make themselves better. That's OK too. What's not cool is a community which is dominated by junkies who cavalierly boast that drugs are required to play at the top level.
For esports or at least Starcraft to get respected by the mainstream, it (among many other things) should represent & agree with ideas like fairness and anti-doping. However, much more importantly, for starcraft to be healthy recreation & have a good effect on it's community rather than negative, it should vocally support good practices and not unethical/dangerous behavior.
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I rarely post on here, but this topic something i want to give some input 
I've tryed playing SC2 on a number of different drugs (none of which were legal for ME personally to use), and i gotta say the Aderrall is NOT one of the ones which helps me play. If a person actually has ADHD or ADD then aderrall is essential for them to play at the same level as another individual who doesn't have the mental abnormality. Taking Aderral when not being DIAGNOSED with ADHD or ADD can have several different affects.
The reason i feel Aderral (and only this stimulant in particular) is not that beneficial to peoples performance in SC2 is that all it does is make you capable of doing things faster (at least that's what you think when your playing, due to processing things faster). However i feel decision making on this drug (when not prescribed it) does suffer unless taken it regularly. The reason for this is that aderral is meant to help people focus on specific tasks. SC2 is NOT ONE SPECIFIC task. you are constantly thinking about several different things and with certain stimulants it will impair u from actually processing all the thoughts/decisions that rush through ur brain.
the cherry on this is that If a person takes Aderrall regularly whether it be through legal or illegal means, it probably means that the individual needs it to function normally in society.
A more interesting question to ask would be whether it should be illegal to be BAKED out of ur skull when u play sc2. cause i can say with "high" certainty that stoner's' will probably play better when baked (due to them being used to it while playing video games) whereas people who don't smoke regularly would suffer dramatically from just a couple hits from a joint.
I think Americans probabaly have a very different view on this then rest of the world as getting "legal" drugs such as Zanex, Ade, concerta are a complete joke to get a hold of it you live in the states.
Fact is a conversation about drug use in SC2 will be completely arbitrary until it is seen as a universal sport.
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Hey if those players need it then they are fooling themselves thinking they are that good. When they get beat whilst on it then they know they need to sort their sh*t out
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On April 06 2011 20:24 VoidEU wrote:
Problem is that this is banned in many countries, for example sweden.
There is no way of legally get your hands on Adderall here, thus making a pretty unfair advantage for the ones who actually can?
As long as its not available to all players, it should not be allowed.
Well, I'm actually a doctor (technically still a medical student) here in Sweden and I can tell you that amphetamine based ADHD medication is not banned or illegal. The most perscribed types are Ritalin and Concerta, and they are perscribed relatively generously, as they are in the rest of the western world.
As a medical professional, I can almost guarantee that many SC2 players (and commentators) are taking amphetamine since I recognize the effects of the medication in their behaviour. The most blatant example is H to the Usky Husky. The speed and manner in which he speaks is typical for a medicated ADHD patient.
Now I would also like to add, that ADHD is somewhat of a bogus diagnosis - similar to Aspberger's. I could never say this in my professional life, of course, but there you have it. Many medical professionals do not believe that ADHD exists. Basically it's a symptom describing diagnosis that could, more or less, be applied to anyone with attention issues. And we all have attention issues to some degree. As such, small doses amphetamine would be helpful for anyone to focus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#Controversies
In this way, the diagnosis Aspberger's is applied to people with severe social issues, but issues that we all have in some shape or form.
If you look at the tests for made-up disorders like this you will see that it's basically impossible not to score on them.
These are some ADHD test questions.
+ Show Spoiler +1. Do you have a sense of underachievement, of not meeting your goals, regardless of how much you have actually accomplished?
2. I find it difficult to read written material unless it is very interesting or very easy.
3. Especially in groups, I find it hard to stay focused on what is being said in conversations.
4. I have a quick temper...a short fuse.
5. I am irritable, and get upset by minor annoyances.
6. I say things without thinking, and later regret having said them.
7. I make quick decisions without thinking enough about their possible bad results.
8. My relationships with people are made difficult by my tendency to talk first and think later.
9. My moods have highs and lows.
10. I have trouble planning in what order to do a series of tasks or activities.
11. I easily become upset.
12. I seem to be thin skinned and many things upset me.
13. I almost always am on the go.
14. I am more comfortable when moving than when sitting still.
15. In conversations, I start to answer questions before the questions have been fully asked.
16. I usually work on more than one project at a time, and fail to finish many of them.
17. There is a lot of "static" or "chatter" in my head.
18. Even when sitting quietly, I am usually moving my hands or feet.
19. In group activities it is hard for me to wait my turn.
20. My mind gets so cluttered that it is hard for it to function.
21. My thoughts bounce around as if my mind is a pinball machine.
22. My brain feels as if it is a television set with all the channels going at once.
23. I am unable to stop daydreaming.
24. I am distressed by the disorganized way my brain works.
Of course, many of these questions or statements are very generic. Everybody has moodswings. Everybody had trouble concentrating. Everyone gets irritated and upset.
Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people should not get amphetamine perscribed. Actuallly, I would be happy to see more people get amphetamine perscribed since it is a very effective stimulant that can improve your life in many, many ways (in low doses). What I'm saying is that disorders like ADHD work as an excuse to perscribe these kinds of medications. People have a very hard time giving drugs to their kids, but if they have a medical "label" to lean on, it suddenly feels OK.
So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly.
ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it.
So what I'm saying is not that ADHD doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not really a disease, it's more of a way of describing a type of personality. ADHD is a way to be. And doctors found in the 70s that people with this kind of personality, could benefit from amphetamine. And so, ADHD was "invented" as an "excuse" or a reason to perscribe amphetamine to people with attention disorders.
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It should be forbidden for those who doesn't have to actually take them.
You should turn in some medical paper as proof to show that you aren't just using them for the advantage.
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well i am more a i don't mind person, if they have to do this to be on the top, then i rather pity them for being as bad as me. (totally freaked out when i think my opponent is better then me) Though i understand that some get distracted more easily then others. (genes can be so annoying)
Anyway easiest way to deal with it (i don't know the duration how long it stays in your body testable x3, if its short well ... ble) test yourself and proof it and be an honored pro gamer, or always have the thought in the back of your mind that people think you are on drugs to play better ... tehehe ...
But i guess doing it this way would hurt the tournament that would be doing it alot in terms of people disliking this move. (well people dislike anything that some institution does, so better don't make needless steps hehe). Also the entertainment would go a bit down as well.
So for the sake of viewer numbers you will probably not see something be done against this. Unless people get fed up with it so much that viewer numbers are dropping.
So a better poll would be, would you still watch tournaments if you knew everyone would be on enhancing drugs. (high percentage would probably not be honest on this poll hehe.)
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o.O I have no comment either way on the original topic, but I can't believe there are people in here genuinely insinuating that HuK was on something because of the way he was acting in an interview. He's always been that way... Its like people saying Liquid`Tyler is always high because he's so chill or saying Day[9] is drunk during his show because he's so over excited and out of control.
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On April 06 2011 21:15 PraetorianX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 20:24 VoidEU wrote:
Problem is that this is banned in many countries, for example sweden.
There is no way of legally get your hands on Adderall here, thus making a pretty unfair advantage for the ones who actually can?
As long as its not available to all players, it should not be allowed. Well, I'm actually a doctor (technically still a medical student) here in Sweden and I can tell you that amphetamine based ADHD medication is not banned or illegal. The most perscribed types are Ritalin and Concerta, and they are perscribed relatively generously, as they are in the rest of the western world. As a medical professional, I can almost guarantee that many SC2 players (and commentators) are taking amphetamine since I recognize the effects of the medication in their behaviour. The most blatant example is H to the Usky Husky. The speed and manner in which he speaks is typical for a medicated ADHD patient. Now I would also like to add, that ADHD is somewhat of a bogus diagnosis - similar to Aspberger's. I could never say this in my professional life, of course, but there you have it. Many medical professionals do not believe that ADHD exists. Basically it's a symptom describing diagnosis that could, more or less, be applied to anyone with attention issues. And we all have attention issues to some degree. As such, small doses amphetamine would be helpful for anyone to focus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#ControversiesIn this way, the diagnosis Aspberger's is applied to people with severe social issues, but issues that we all have in some shape or form. If you look at the tests for made-up disorders like this you will see that it's basically impossible not to score on them. These are some ADHD test questions. + Show Spoiler +1. Do you have a sense of underachievement, of not meeting your goals, regardless of how much you have actually accomplished?
2. I find it difficult to read written material unless it is very interesting or very easy.
3. Especially in groups, I find it hard to stay focused on what is being said in conversations.
4. I have a quick temper...a short fuse.
5. I am irritable, and get upset by minor annoyances.
6. I say things without thinking, and later regret having said them.
7. I make quick decisions without thinking enough about their possible bad results.
8. My relationships with people are made difficult by my tendency to talk first and think later.
9. My moods have highs and lows.
10. I have trouble planning in what order to do a series of tasks or activities.
11. I easily become upset.
12. I seem to be thin skinned and many things upset me.
13. I almost always am on the go.
14. I am more comfortable when moving than when sitting still.
15. In conversations, I start to answer questions before the questions have been fully asked.
16. I usually work on more than one project at a time, and fail to finish many of them.
17. There is a lot of "static" or "chatter" in my head.
18. Even when sitting quietly, I am usually moving my hands or feet.
19. In group activities it is hard for me to wait my turn.
20. My mind gets so cluttered that it is hard for it to function.
21. My thoughts bounce around as if my mind is a pinball machine.
22. My brain feels as if it is a television set with all the channels going at once.
23. I am unable to stop daydreaming.
24. I am distressed by the disorganized way my brain works. Of course, many of these questions or statements are very generic. Everybody has moodswings. Everybody had trouble concentrating. Everyone gets irritated and upset. Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people should not get amphetamine perscribed. Actuallly, I would be happy to see more people get amphetamine perscribed since it is a very effective stimulant that can improve your life in many, many ways (in low doses). What I'm saying is that disorders like ADHD work as an excuse to perscribe these kinds of medications. People have a very hard time giving drugs to their kids, but if they have a medical "label" to lean on, it suddenly feels OK. So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly. ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it. So what I'm saying is not that ADHD doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not really a disease, it's more of a way of describing a type of personality. ADHD is a way to be. And doctors found in the 70s that people with this kind of personality, could benefit from amphetamine. And so, ADHD was "invented" as an "excuse" or a reason to perscribe amphetamine to people with attention disorders.
I think psychological disorders & public understanding of them (of medicine in general) is a really big problem as you mentioned. I suspect that we look at a lot of modern dysfunctions and try to categorize them in a much older concept of medicine -- i.e., you catch/are born with some disease, and you take medicine for it. Many, many people do not understand that bacterial infections are not viral infections are not fungal infections, and similarly psychological and psycho-physical (like chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia) disorders and syndromes are being shoehorned into this idea that you are either "healthy" or have a "disease" when in reality it's a more complicated sliding scale with perhaps no concept of normal. I like how you describe that ADD is a type of personality -- people forget that while ADD may have been panned as difficult, there are many activities that are neutral or even beneficial for the symptom profile that matches ADD. For example, people with ADD tend to respond well to things which have a higher level adrenaline (e.g., playing paintball vs. sitting quietly reading) -- this might correlate to performing better in a tournament atmosphere vs. sitting at home grinding on the ladder. Of course, it also might correspond to having difficulty practicing methodically for said tournament.
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Absolutely, ADD individuals should not be alienated from esports whatsoever. If you have a prescription, you should be allowed to take your medication.
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The people postingin the topic sound like the people that are enforcing and supporting the "war on drugs", such a waste of time, money, and effort.
Yes this is the field I study and work in. Almost every person here has no idea wtf they are talking about, "tried" it a few times, or read some bogus MD websites on it.
The only reason anyone thinks they are better on this is because you hold benchmarks on irrelevant things like "APM"... Cool, so you're cracked out on adderol and Spam clicking faster... Doesn't mean you're better. You won a few more games on it? Cool, it's a streaky game which you probably would have won anyways...
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
Stop being so conservative, don't speak out of emotion when you don't understand the real hard scientific facts. This thread is pointless, with irrational vs. Rational opinions, and will never be settled because of the way we are all raised and how it's beaten into the heads of society that drugs are bad, but also make you better? Like how cocaine is listed as a performance enhancing drug... Have you ever tried playing a sport on coke? Doesn't work out quite like you imagine.
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Why are so many people saying that amphetamines don't make you play better? Have you guys never played after drinking 3-4 cups of coffee?
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On April 06 2011 21:36 mockturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 21:15 PraetorianX wrote:On April 06 2011 20:24 VoidEU wrote:
Problem is that this is banned in many countries, for example sweden.
There is no way of legally get your hands on Adderall here, thus making a pretty unfair advantage for the ones who actually can?
As long as its not available to all players, it should not be allowed. Well, I'm actually a doctor (technically still a medical student) here in Sweden and I can tell you that amphetamine based ADHD medication is not banned or illegal. The most perscribed types are Ritalin and Concerta, and they are perscribed relatively generously, as they are in the rest of the western world. As a medical professional, I can almost guarantee that many SC2 players (and commentators) are taking amphetamine since I recognize the effects of the medication in their behaviour. The most blatant example is H to the Usky Husky. The speed and manner in which he speaks is typical for a medicated ADHD patient. Now I would also like to add, that ADHD is somewhat of a bogus diagnosis - similar to Aspberger's. I could never say this in my professional life, of course, but there you have it. Many medical professionals do not believe that ADHD exists. Basically it's a symptom describing diagnosis that could, more or less, be applied to anyone with attention issues. And we all have attention issues to some degree. As such, small doses amphetamine would be helpful for anyone to focus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#ControversiesIn this way, the diagnosis Aspberger's is applied to people with severe social issues, but issues that we all have in some shape or form. If you look at the tests for made-up disorders like this you will see that it's basically impossible not to score on them. These are some ADHD test questions. + Show Spoiler +1. Do you have a sense of underachievement, of not meeting your goals, regardless of how much you have actually accomplished?
2. I find it difficult to read written material unless it is very interesting or very easy.
3. Especially in groups, I find it hard to stay focused on what is being said in conversations.
4. I have a quick temper...a short fuse.
5. I am irritable, and get upset by minor annoyances.
6. I say things without thinking, and later regret having said them.
7. I make quick decisions without thinking enough about their possible bad results.
8. My relationships with people are made difficult by my tendency to talk first and think later.
9. My moods have highs and lows.
10. I have trouble planning in what order to do a series of tasks or activities.
11. I easily become upset.
12. I seem to be thin skinned and many things upset me.
13. I almost always am on the go.
14. I am more comfortable when moving than when sitting still.
15. In conversations, I start to answer questions before the questions have been fully asked.
16. I usually work on more than one project at a time, and fail to finish many of them.
17. There is a lot of "static" or "chatter" in my head.
18. Even when sitting quietly, I am usually moving my hands or feet.
19. In group activities it is hard for me to wait my turn.
20. My mind gets so cluttered that it is hard for it to function.
21. My thoughts bounce around as if my mind is a pinball machine.
22. My brain feels as if it is a television set with all the channels going at once.
23. I am unable to stop daydreaming.
24. I am distressed by the disorganized way my brain works. Of course, many of these questions or statements are very generic. Everybody has moodswings. Everybody had trouble concentrating. Everyone gets irritated and upset. Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people should not get amphetamine perscribed. Actuallly, I would be happy to see more people get amphetamine perscribed since it is a very effective stimulant that can improve your life in many, many ways (in low doses). What I'm saying is that disorders like ADHD work as an excuse to perscribe these kinds of medications. People have a very hard time giving drugs to their kids, but if they have a medical "label" to lean on, it suddenly feels OK. So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly. ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it. So what I'm saying is not that ADHD doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not really a disease, it's more of a way of describing a type of personality. ADHD is a way to be. And doctors found in the 70s that people with this kind of personality, could benefit from amphetamine. And so, ADHD was "invented" as an "excuse" or a reason to perscribe amphetamine to people with attention disorders. I think psychological disorders & public understanding of them (of medicine in general) is a really big problem as you mentioned. I suspect that we look at a lot of modern dysfunctions and try to categorize them in a much older concept of medicine -- i.e., you catch/are born with some disease, and you take medicine for it. Many, many people do not understand that bacterial infections are not viral infections are not fungal infections, and similarly psychological and psycho-physical (like chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia) disorders and syndromes are being shoehorned into this idea that you are either "healthy" or have a "disease" when in reality it's a more complicated sliding scale with perhaps no concept of normal. I like how you describe that ADD is a type of personality -- people forget that while ADD may have been panned as difficult, there are many activities that are neutral or even beneficial for the symptom profile that matches ADD. For example, people with ADD tend to respond well to things which have a higher level adrenaline (e.g., playing paintball vs. sitting quietly reading) -- this might correlate to performing better in a tournament atmosphere vs. sitting at home grinding on the ladder. Of course, it also might correspond to having difficulty practicing methodically for said tournament.
Correct me if Im wrong here. But what I said is that Adderall is banned and you cant get it in sweden no matter what, unless go you to the street.
Ritalin and Concerta is not however. But Ive never claimed that.
And if Im wrong here and I can get these stuffs, feel free to pm me and tell me how : P
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On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
So basically, there are drugs that affect every possible important chemical in your brain, which you admittedly say affect "well, everything."
Yet, you don't think they can possibly affect concentration and make you perform at a higher level.
Get the fuck out of here with your irrational bullshit hidden behind trying to call out others and the whole "war on drugs" nonsense. It has nothing to do with irrational fear of drugs.
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No fuck that. Pardon la francais but even suggesting some drug to be allowed in any sport, electronic or otherwise is retarded.
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On April 06 2011 21:51 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
So basically, there are drugs that affect every possible important chemical in your brain, which you admittedly say affect "well, everything." Yet, you don't think they can possibly affect concentration and make you perform at a higher level. Get the fuck out of here with your irrational bullshit hidden behind trying to call out others and the whole "war on drugs" nonsense. It has nothing to do with irrational fear of drugs.
You obviously have no idea how the brain works. Emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games. Nothing in the world can increase your brain and mental functions to a high enough degree in Which taking it would create an unfair advantage. This isn't limitless. Science has it's limits.
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what happend to personal freedom?
its no ones business what i take or not take...
adderall and ritaline and such is a very harmfull and scary drug though.
So i wouldnt recommend anyone to take it. It might damage your brain badly.
All of you who eats it should reconsider and check up more facts on it instead of
trusting your drugpushing doctors.
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TBH - I doubt many top players do this. Perhaps some of the lower level players in GSL and other tournies. I seriously doubt Jinro or MC is trying to cheat their way to the top is Adderall or Ritalin. These players are so focused on being the best that adding a crutch to their play isn't what they are looking for.
For players who do use Adderall/Ritalin/W.E. you are only making it harder to play without the drug. You will become acustomed to playing at that mental level and your play will start to fall out like it did without Adderall. The reason professionals do not use this kind of stuff is because they need to be #1 for as long as possible. Real champions want extended success, not a one hit wonder.
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On April 06 2011 21:55 above wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 21:51 PJA wrote:On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
So basically, there are drugs that affect every possible important chemical in your brain, which you admittedly say affect "well, everything." Yet, you don't think they can possibly affect concentration and make you perform at a higher level. Get the fuck out of here with your irrational bullshit hidden behind trying to call out others and the whole "war on drugs" nonsense. It has nothing to do with irrational fear of drugs. You obviously have no idea how the brain works. Emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games. Nothing in the world can increase your brain and mental functions to a high enough degree in Which taking it would create an unfair advantage. This isn't limitless. Science has it's limits.
Erm, drugs do and can increase your mental functions to give an advantage.
A side effect of some parkinson's treatments are drugs that do exactly this and are used by students to give them an advantage before exams especially.
It's like how you should always have a Mars bar before an exam just for the suger/glucose to help you perform or lucozade before/during sports.
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On April 06 2011 21:55 above wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 21:51 PJA wrote:On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
So basically, there are drugs that affect every possible important chemical in your brain, which you admittedly say affect "well, everything." Yet, you don't think they can possibly affect concentration and make you perform at a higher level. Get the fuck out of here with your irrational bullshit hidden behind trying to call out others and the whole "war on drugs" nonsense. It has nothing to do with irrational fear of drugs. You obviously have no idea how the brain works. Emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games. Nothing in the world can increase your brain and mental functions to a high enough degree in Which taking it would create an unfair advantage. This isn't limitless. Science has it's limits.
I'm not a brain expert, but try playing SC2 after 3 beers. Now trying playing SC2 after 3 cups of strong coffee.
QED.
BTW, got a source on "emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games"? That has to be the most un-rigorous, ill-defined and probably completely not scientifically backed claim I've ever read.
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On April 06 2011 21:50 VoidEU wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 21:36 mockturtle wrote:On April 06 2011 21:15 PraetorianX wrote:On April 06 2011 20:24 VoidEU wrote:
Problem is that this is banned in many countries, for example sweden.
There is no way of legally get your hands on Adderall here, thus making a pretty unfair advantage for the ones who actually can?
As long as its not available to all players, it should not be allowed. Well, I'm actually a doctor (technically still a medical student) here in Sweden and I can tell you that amphetamine based ADHD medication is not banned or illegal. The most perscribed types are Ritalin and Concerta, and they are perscribed relatively generously, as they are in the rest of the western world. As a medical professional, I can almost guarantee that many SC2 players (and commentators) are taking amphetamine since I recognize the effects of the medication in their behaviour. The most blatant example is H to the Usky Husky. The speed and manner in which he speaks is typical for a medicated ADHD patient. Now I would also like to add, that ADHD is somewhat of a bogus diagnosis - similar to Aspberger's. I could never say this in my professional life, of course, but there you have it. Many medical professionals do not believe that ADHD exists. Basically it's a symptom describing diagnosis that could, more or less, be applied to anyone with attention issues. And we all have attention issues to some degree. As such, small doses amphetamine would be helpful for anyone to focus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder#ControversiesIn this way, the diagnosis Aspberger's is applied to people with severe social issues, but issues that we all have in some shape or form. If you look at the tests for made-up disorders like this you will see that it's basically impossible not to score on them. These are some ADHD test questions. + Show Spoiler +1. Do you have a sense of underachievement, of not meeting your goals, regardless of how much you have actually accomplished?
2. I find it difficult to read written material unless it is very interesting or very easy.
3. Especially in groups, I find it hard to stay focused on what is being said in conversations.
4. I have a quick temper...a short fuse.
5. I am irritable, and get upset by minor annoyances.
6. I say things without thinking, and later regret having said them.
7. I make quick decisions without thinking enough about their possible bad results.
8. My relationships with people are made difficult by my tendency to talk first and think later.
9. My moods have highs and lows.
10. I have trouble planning in what order to do a series of tasks or activities.
11. I easily become upset.
12. I seem to be thin skinned and many things upset me.
13. I almost always am on the go.
14. I am more comfortable when moving than when sitting still.
15. In conversations, I start to answer questions before the questions have been fully asked.
16. I usually work on more than one project at a time, and fail to finish many of them.
17. There is a lot of "static" or "chatter" in my head.
18. Even when sitting quietly, I am usually moving my hands or feet.
19. In group activities it is hard for me to wait my turn.
20. My mind gets so cluttered that it is hard for it to function.
21. My thoughts bounce around as if my mind is a pinball machine.
22. My brain feels as if it is a television set with all the channels going at once.
23. I am unable to stop daydreaming.
24. I am distressed by the disorganized way my brain works. Of course, many of these questions or statements are very generic. Everybody has moodswings. Everybody had trouble concentrating. Everyone gets irritated and upset. Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people should not get amphetamine perscribed. Actuallly, I would be happy to see more people get amphetamine perscribed since it is a very effective stimulant that can improve your life in many, many ways (in low doses). What I'm saying is that disorders like ADHD work as an excuse to perscribe these kinds of medications. People have a very hard time giving drugs to their kids, but if they have a medical "label" to lean on, it suddenly feels OK. So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly. ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it. So what I'm saying is not that ADHD doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not really a disease, it's more of a way of describing a type of personality. ADHD is a way to be. And doctors found in the 70s that people with this kind of personality, could benefit from amphetamine. And so, ADHD was "invented" as an "excuse" or a reason to perscribe amphetamine to people with attention disorders. I think psychological disorders & public understanding of them (of medicine in general) is a really big problem as you mentioned. I suspect that we look at a lot of modern dysfunctions and try to categorize them in a much older concept of medicine -- i.e., you catch/are born with some disease, and you take medicine for it. Many, many people do not understand that bacterial infections are not viral infections are not fungal infections, and similarly psychological and psycho-physical (like chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia) disorders and syndromes are being shoehorned into this idea that you are either "healthy" or have a "disease" when in reality it's a more complicated sliding scale with perhaps no concept of normal. I like how you describe that ADD is a type of personality -- people forget that while ADD may have been panned as difficult, there are many activities that are neutral or even beneficial for the symptom profile that matches ADD. For example, people with ADD tend to respond well to things which have a higher level adrenaline (e.g., playing paintball vs. sitting quietly reading) -- this might correlate to performing better in a tournament atmosphere vs. sitting at home grinding on the ladder. Of course, it also might correspond to having difficulty practicing methodically for said tournament. Correct me if Im wrong here. But what I said is that Adderall is banned and you cant get it in sweden no matter what, unless go you to the street. Ritalin and Concerta is not however. But Ive never claimed that. And if Im wrong here and I can get these stuffs, feel free to pm me and tell me how : P
Well, Adderal and Ritalin serves basically the same function in the brain, with small differences. Ritalin blocks the reuptake of dopamine and norepinephrine, which increases their concentration in the synapses. Adderal does the same thing, but also directly increases the dopamine levels, producing a slightly more powerful effect.
How do get amphetamines in Sweden? By perscription. Also, by going to the Plattan and asking a Neger if he's got any. Would not recommend the latter, though.
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most of theses drugs are under prescribption, so they had tpo be given by a doctor for a reason in the first place, sadly there are abuses but some might take those pills (just like ritalin), for their health condition and not to enhance their perfmormances
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even if they allowed it, theirs a mental aspect in sc2 as opposed to a physical sport, so imo it wont effect much except for APM, which is practically unnacruate past 300
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I think the professional Starcraft 2 community has more important things to worry about with regard to the integrity of the sport than drug testing.
Like, say, building the idea that it's a sport to begin with.
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On April 06 2011 22:02 Chronald wrote:
TBH - I doubt many top players do this. Perhaps some of the lower level players in GSL and other tournies. I seriously doubt Jinro or MC is trying to cheat their way to the top is Adderall or Ritalin. These players are so focused on being the best that adding a crutch to their play isn't what they are looking for.
For players who do use Adderall/Ritalin/W.E. you are only making it harder to play without the drug. You will become acustomed to playing at that mental level and your play will start to fall out like it did without Adderall. The reason professionals do not use this kind of stuff is because they need to be #1 for as long as possible. Real champions want extended success, not a one hit wonder.
Were we can give the benefit of the doubt, when there is no checking system in place ppl especially pro's have shown they are willing to gain any advantage in every major sport on the planet. There are numerous accounts of CS & Halo players saying how they take these drugs for the performance advantage.
SC/SC2 players are no different, many established pro's have shown they are willing to cheat with maphacks and the like so I don't see what honor code would stop them taking drugs now.
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On April 06 2011 22:06 optical630 wrote:
even if they allowed it, theirs a mental aspect in sc2 as opposed to a physical sport, so imo it wont effect much except for APM, which is practically unnacruate past 300
There are drugs that effect your mental state, so I wouldn't say it's impossible for a drug to give a player more gains.
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Players should be able to use whatever enhancement they like, I want to see the best games.
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On April 06 2011 22:03 Adeeler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 21:55 above wrote:On April 06 2011 21:51 PJA wrote:On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
So basically, there are drugs that affect every possible important chemical in your brain, which you admittedly say affect "well, everything." Yet, you don't think they can possibly affect concentration and make you perform at a higher level. Get the fuck out of here with your irrational bullshit hidden behind trying to call out others and the whole "war on drugs" nonsense. It has nothing to do with irrational fear of drugs. You obviously have no idea how the brain works. Emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games. Nothing in the world can increase your brain and mental functions to a high enough degree in Which taking it would create an unfair advantage. This isn't limitless. Science has it's limits. Erm, drugs do and can increase your mental functions to give an advantage. A side effect of some parkinson's treatments are drugs that do exactly this and are used by students to give them an advantage before exams especially. It's like how you should always have a Mars bar before an exam just for the suger/glucose to help you perform or lucozade before/during sports.
My point being, it is not a positive relationship. Amphetamines and like substances (Adderall, Riatlin, Concerta, etc) are double edged swords. Yes you will be able to sit in on place for a lot longer and not get bored, but they other side of it is that it lowers your perceived effort, increases heart rate (which increases anxiety and jumpiness), gives you overconfidence which makes you make bad decisions early on, and the list goes on and on...
The reason colleges ban it or have code against it is because it lets you sit there and study for much longer without getting side tracked or getting tired, not because it makes you smarter. You dont understand stuff you didn't understand before you took it, you dont have a higher mental capacity, and it doesn't make you smarter. In all reality, cramming is a stupid thing to do in the first place, and the fact that you'd be in the position just goes to show you that the best habits are already not in place....
If ANYTHING, it could be semi-viable as a training drug to increase the hours possible, but as a performance drug, its not viable at all, and even more so, detrimental to the user.
And in response to the candy bar, its because your brain uses glucose when you think and the sugar can help replenish that, but its even more effective to eat a light meal before an exam due to you getting a full supplemental supply, and not just sugar which is temporary.
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I don't think you can make a section of your post called "Please read before taking the poll!" and have that section be filled with statements that are clearly biased to one view point.
E.g., statements like:
undoubtedly giving themselves an unfair advantage.
do we really want to force all players to pay for costly drugs, with adverse side effects, just so that they are able to compete fairly?
I think that this will certainly skew the results of this poll.
To answer the question, I agree that no one should be given and "unfair" advantage in a competition like Starcraft. However, when it comes to medication, where do you draw the line? If someone is prescribed a drug like aderall, are they allowed to take it? They would likely be at an unfair disadvantage if they were not allowed. So, you could say that gamers must have a prescription in order to use such drugs, but then all a person would need to do is get a prescription (which if you don't know, in a country like America, kids can get Aderall or Ritalin prescribed for just about any reason under the sun--this is a separate problem...).
What I am getting at--and what others have mentioned--is that making any rule about this is going to get complicated. It will be complicated to create and enforce, and likely easy sneak around if desired.
The best solution may be to increase awareness in the competitive community; try to establish a code of ethics among gamers surrounding this issue. People are always going to be using things like drugs to get advantages, but maybe at least some people would be less likely to if there was a strong, collective consensus against it.
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I say leave it to the players discretion. They are adults and they can make their own decisions. I'm sure there are many top tier players who never use drugs, and I'm sure that they aren't necessary to win. The people who are taking them probably have some psychological impairment which the drug is helping to overcome. Besides, if it did become an issue I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for them to obtain legitimate prescriptions. What would you do then? Deny people with a legitimate prescription entrance into events? I know a few people who get prescribed Oxycontin, they don't really need it they are just drug addicts. It isn't hard to get a prescription if you know the right things to say to a doctor.
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On April 06 2011 22:22 above wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 22:03 Adeeler wrote:On April 06 2011 21:55 above wrote:On April 06 2011 21:51 PJA wrote:On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
So basically, there are drugs that affect every possible important chemical in your brain, which you admittedly say affect "well, everything." Yet, you don't think they can possibly affect concentration and make you perform at a higher level. Get the fuck out of here with your irrational bullshit hidden behind trying to call out others and the whole "war on drugs" nonsense. It has nothing to do with irrational fear of drugs. You obviously have no idea how the brain works. Emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games. Nothing in the world can increase your brain and mental functions to a high enough degree in Which taking it would create an unfair advantage. This isn't limitless. Science has it's limits. Erm, drugs do and can increase your mental functions to give an advantage. A side effect of some parkinson's treatments are drugs that do exactly this and are used by students to give them an advantage before exams especially. It's like how you should always have a Mars bar before an exam just for the suger/glucose to help you perform or lucozade before/during sports. My point being, it is not a positive relationship. Amphetamines and like substances (Adderall, Riatlin, Concerta, etc) are double edged swords. Yes you will be able to sit in on place for a lot longer and not get bored, but they other side of it is that it lowers your perceived effort, increases heart rate (which increases anxiety and jumpiness), gives you overconfidence which makes you make bad decisions early on, and the list goes on and on... The reason colleges ban it or have code against it is because it lets you sit there and study for much longer without getting side tracked or getting tired, not because it makes you smarter. You dont understand stuff you didn't understand before you took it, you dont have a higher mental capacity, and it doesn't make you smarter. In all reality, cramming is a stupid thing to do in the first place, and the fact that you'd be in the position just goes to show you that the best habits are already not in place.... If ANYTHING, it could be semi-viable as a training drug to increase the hours possible, but as a performance drug, its not viable at all, and even more so, detrimental to the user. And in response to the candy bar, its because your brain uses glucose when you think and the sugar can help replenish that, but its even more effective to eat a light meal before an exam due to you getting a full supplemental supply, and not just sugar which is temporary.
I wouldn't troll you so hard if your first post wasn't so completely and fundamentally flawed, but once again, where is your proof? You keep saying that drugs can affect your ability to function mentally in a negative way, but that there is no way to gain an unfair advantage.
Although it certainly doesn't constitute proof, there is a huge amount of evidence that drugs can improve your cognitive performance. Top players in halo and SC2 both use ritalin/adderall to play better, and these substances are banned in top chess and go tournaments. Now, all of these people could be riding the placebo train, but I see no reason to believe this a priori, and my personal experiences with the effects of caffeine contradict everything you are saying.
Clearly these drugs cannot make you know things you didn't previously know, but they can improve concentration. I don't even understand how you can think that isn't a huge benefit while playing SC2, especially if you have to play 10+ games in a row at MLG or something. Even ignoring the cognitive effects, the way that some drugs affect a person physically could allow them to react more quickly, giving them an edge.
I'm not saying that drugs are without a doubt giving people an unfair advantage, but I'm pretty sure your complete certainty that they don't is based on the understanding of the brain that you obtained in some sophomore level psychology class.
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On April 06 2011 22:37 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 22:22 above wrote:On April 06 2011 22:03 Adeeler wrote:On April 06 2011 21:55 above wrote:On April 06 2011 21:51 PJA wrote:On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
So basically, there are drugs that affect every possible important chemical in your brain, which you admittedly say affect "well, everything." Yet, you don't think they can possibly affect concentration and make you perform at a higher level. Get the fuck out of here with your irrational bullshit hidden behind trying to call out others and the whole "war on drugs" nonsense. It has nothing to do with irrational fear of drugs. You obviously have no idea how the brain works. Emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games. Nothing in the world can increase your brain and mental functions to a high enough degree in Which taking it would create an unfair advantage. This isn't limitless. Science has it's limits. Erm, drugs do and can increase your mental functions to give an advantage. A side effect of some parkinson's treatments are drugs that do exactly this and are used by students to give them an advantage before exams especially. It's like how you should always have a Mars bar before an exam just for the suger/glucose to help you perform or lucozade before/during sports. My point being, it is not a positive relationship. Amphetamines and like substances (Adderall, Riatlin, Concerta, etc) are double edged swords. Yes you will be able to sit in on place for a lot longer and not get bored, but they other side of it is that it lowers your perceived effort, increases heart rate (which increases anxiety and jumpiness), gives you overconfidence which makes you make bad decisions early on, and the list goes on and on... The reason colleges ban it or have code against it is because it lets you sit there and study for much longer without getting side tracked or getting tired, not because it makes you smarter. You dont understand stuff you didn't understand before you took it, you dont have a higher mental capacity, and it doesn't make you smarter. In all reality, cramming is a stupid thing to do in the first place, and the fact that you'd be in the position just goes to show you that the best habits are already not in place.... If ANYTHING, it could be semi-viable as a training drug to increase the hours possible, but as a performance drug, its not viable at all, and even more so, detrimental to the user. And in response to the candy bar, its because your brain uses glucose when you think and the sugar can help replenish that, but its even more effective to eat a light meal before an exam due to you getting a full supplemental supply, and not just sugar which is temporary. I wouldn't troll you so hard if your first post wasn't so completely and fundamentally flawed, but once again, where is your proof? You keep saying that drugs can affect your ability to function mentally in a negative way, but that there is no way to gain an unfair advantage. Although it certainly doesn't constitute proof, there is a huge amount of evidence that drugs can improve your cognitive performance. Top players in halo and SC2 both use ritalin/adderall to play better, and these substances are banned in top chess and go tournaments. Now, all of these people could be riding the placebo train, but I see no reason to believe this a priori, and my personal experiences with the effects of caffeine contradict everything you are saying. Clearly these drugs cannot make you know things you didn't previously know, but they can improve concentration. I don't even understand how you can think that isn't a huge benefit while playing SC2, especially if you have to play 10+ games in a row at MLG or something. Even ignoring the cognitive effects, the way that some drugs affect a person physically could allow them to react more quickly, giving them an edge. I'm not saying that drugs are without a doubt giving people an unfair advantage, but I'm pretty sure your complete certainty that they don't is based on the understanding of the brain that you obtained in some sophomore level psychology class.
Why don't you go look up any study done on an amp-based molceule. Comparine Caffeine to Adderall is like comparing Acetaminophen to Hydromorphone. Apples and oranges.
Better concentration at the cost of bad decision making. Sounds beneficial.
And ya, I get paid for working at my pharmacological lab with my sophomore psychology class education. QQ.
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Unless you're going to start drug testing players, this is totally unenforceable and not worth trying to do, whatever you may think of the merits of stuff like this.
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On April 06 2011 22:49 Heraklitus wrote:
Unless you're going to start drug testing players, this is totally unenforceable and not worth trying to do, whatever you may think of the merits of stuff like this.
Well said.
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I think this is ridiculuous.... What happens if someone is ADD and needs ritalin, you can't just force them to stop taking it and when they do take it and are not allowed into tournaments because of it, it could be seen as having something against the mentally handicapped and sooner or later the tournaments would start getting sued... You guys need to think a little bit about it
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It is enforceable. MLG could say being caught using adderall would result in disqualification of not only the player, but also a warning for the team of the player. (most players have teams). Since teams can enforce, this could mostly work in an environment such as starcraft II e-sports, which still has mostly intelligent people.
On another topic, I don't see why people want to allow drugs because it leads to better games. I've seen two people this thread already saying it, and there's honestly no good logic behind it. Suppose adderall improves concentration and lets you play better. But doesn't this lower the skill ceiling artificially, similarly to adding auto mining and MBS? Instead of everyone using drugs, why not make the game just a bit easier then? I guess there are more ways to look at this, but for me I'm not sure if it makes a lot of sense. It depends on your actual definition of what are 'good games', maybe, but that's hard to define in a few words, if at all.
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This is obviously impossible to enforce. I mean how many students around the world take Adderall/Ritalin for their college entrance exams. Who isn't tempted? I was lol. Anyway especially with money involved, people will do anything. Besides TT1, was known to have lack of ethics in gaming, its not surprising that he would.
I do know that in Korea, pharmacy drugs are rather lax compared to the United States. But, I do think that there was some changes now, where they won't allow drugs to be dispensed without a doctor's prescription. Since before pharmacists were allowed to dispense alot of drugs ( most are private pharmacies).
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I think the reason the poll is so heavily in favor of "no" is because of how biased the wording is of both the title and the OP.
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The only reason anyone votes no to this is the negative connotation of the word "drug". If carrots increased your concentration would anyone be asking for carrots to be banned? of course not.
The important question is whether the substance is legal or not, if it is legal then it should be allowed, if its not then it shouldn't be.
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South Korea: Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to impor
According to wikipedia
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As a person who taxes Dexedrine to combat ADHD, I feel like this topic is ignoring a very important issue. That people who are prescribed Adderall or Dexedrine in my case, cannot play Starcraft 2 at any reasonable competitive level without it. Starcraft 2 too anyone with ADHD is a sensory overload, its almost impossible to focus and most of the time it nearly unplayable.
The issue is the availability of these drugs to non-prescription patients. You can't restrict these drugs from people who really need them. What needs to happen is stricter government enforcement on prescription drug abuse.
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I voted yes, but tbh what I was voting was more "there's no(realistic) way to call someone out on abusing this stuff, so it's a bit pointless to have rules about it".
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Even if tournaments were to go about enforcing this, I'm not sure it would even help... couldn't people just piss clean and then take some pills right before matches?
It's not like steroids, you don't shoot up before going into a sports game~
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WOuld you count Ritalin and such as performance enhancers aswell? People who use it for medication in the regular lifes?
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-_- for all of the people that are asking for studies to be done, get real. No scientific institution is going to do a study on starcraft and Adderral. I do know that some BW pros used PED's and there was nothing done by the leagues to control it. Saying that you don't believe these drugs have an affect on SC is just idiotic. Of course they do, they are made for people with ADHA or ADD to help them stay calm and concentrated. When you apply that to a normal person, they will have the ability to sit and concentrate on one task for hours on end.
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On April 06 2011 23:22 vicariouscheese wrote:
Even if tournaments were to go about enforcing this, I'm not sure it would even help... couldn't people just piss clean and then take some pills right before matches?
It's not like steroids, you don't shoot up before going into a sports game~
Simple solution, test 30 minutes before the match and then immediately after the matches finish...
Of course I don't really care, I say just let it be. Obviously the performance increase is not to the point where once you take it you become unstoppable.
On April 06 2011 23:36 Svartstol wrote:
WOuld you count Ritalin and such as performance enhancers aswell? People who use it for medication in the regular lifes?
That's why you can't test for it... People have normal needs for these medications so trying to test everyone at major tournaments would give you people who fail and then get disqualified even though they need it for health reasons. These are not steroids, these are actual medications that benefit people unlike growth hormones that only have a purpose for ones vanity.
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Enforceability is irrelevant. The community should make clear that it's not acceptable to use controlled substances to enhance performance without an MD signing off on the medical necessity.
Of course you can't catch everyone who violates such a rule, but that's no reason not to set a clear standard that it's unacceptable.
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I've used plenty of Dexedrine and amphetamines in general and i don't think it's going to be much help in SC2. Someone is not going to beat you in this game in a high level tournament cause they are on stimulants...
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What is the big deal? Personally I would be completely against how invasive you would have to be to actually make any attempt to enforce this. All you would do is make tournaments hell for most players and then some other guys would still find ways to sneak through. Drugs will not make someone better at the game.
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After reading all ten pages of this, I have a few things I'd like to add to the discussion that were passed up in the sea of comments.
1. I think it's really disrespectful to a player like HuK to blindly insinuate he was on adderral. Think about where he was, 4 hours of sleep, and an hour or so before huge career matches. If I was in his position I would have chugged the fuck out of some coffee. Whether he did anything or not isn't even what I mean to touch on, but the fact someone would blindly, and callously say he was on adderall is so absurd.
2. I do not have personal experience with Adderral, as the drug really scares me, but I have some friends that take it for recreation every now and again. I'm always interested in how a person feels on drugs so I have vicariously explored the drug through them, and I feel like I could say this with authority; I do not believe Adderall would help playing Starcraft at all. EVERY single one of my friends who have taken Adderall while trying to game have told me it's near impossible. They've all told me it's too easy to focus on a game and they feel like they have spare brain power to use so it feels wasteful to play. Generally they write essays while cleaning and shit. That drug is crazy.
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I voted yes because your the whole idea is nothing more then speculation with no actual proof of performance enhancing. Having a stronger focus is not "performance enhancing", some people use this daily basis. Yes it helps them focus, No they don't have an advantage because of the drug. Under your logic, people with Attention Deficit can't play in the leagues because they have "performance enhancers" that they HAVE to use. Flawed logic = bad conclusion
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On April 06 2011 23:44 Lysenko wrote:
Enforceability is irrelevant. The community should make clear that it's not acceptable to use controlled substances to enhance performance without an MD signing off on the medical necessity.
Of course you can't catch everyone who violates such a rule, but that's no reason not to set a clear standard that it's unacceptable.
Ok so let us say that the community does say that the frown upon people who use PED's... What then? Since you say that enforcability is not an issue then what is the purpose of the community making it clear that they are against PED use? I've tried adderral for studying purposes and it works wonders, if I wanted to be top tier in SC2 I would definitely take it before tournaments and such, a community frowning upon its use would not make me change that... and how would they find out anyway if nobody is enforcing it?
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Oh btw great post by PraetorianX. The way the ADHD symptoms are so wide as to include anyone is really quite manipulative and obviously to benefit pharma companies. Literally anyone can go down a checklist of the supposed effects of ADHD and decide they have a form of it. I can fit most of them but reality is i'm just lazy, it's not that i literally cannot focus cause i need amphetamines to do so.
It's the same with the sickening over-prescribing of SSRI's for depression.
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On April 06 2011 19:17 nihlon wrote:
Also I'm a bit baffles that some people can't see the difference in taking drugs and simply eating well...
Defining drug generically as a substance that alters your mental/physical state, most foods are in fact drugs.
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On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
Don't make rules you can't or won't enforce. I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide -- it's a pain in the ass, costs money, and risks drama -- and without that, it's unenforceable.
Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. Needless to say, nobody has publicly tested or measured anyone's video gaming performance under Adderall or any other nootropics in a controlled environment, and nobody understands the mechanism and effects of these sorts of drugs well enough to say exactly what they are and are not going to help you with.
What he said. Until any of you have a proposition for who is going to pay for this and how they are going to pay for it, this is a non-issue.
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On April 06 2011 23:48 xLethargicax wrote:
After reading all ten pages of this, I have a few things I'd like to add to the discussion that were passed up in the sea of comments.
1. I think it's really disrespectful to a player like HuK to blindly insinuate he was on adderral. Think about where he was, 4 hours of sleep, and an hour or so before huge career matches. If I was in his position I would have chugged the fuck out of some coffee. Whether he did anything or not isn't even what I mean to touch on, but the fact someone would blindly, and callously say he was on adderall is so absurd.
2. I do not have personal experience with Adderral, as the drug really scares me, but I have some friends that take it for recreation every now and again. I'm always interested in how a person feels on drugs so I have vicariously explored the drug through them, and I feel like I could say this with authority; I do not believe Adderall would help playing Starcraft at all. EVERY single one of my friends who have taken Adderall while trying to game have told me it's near impossible. They've all told me it's too easy to focus on a game and they feel like they have spare brain power to use so it feels wasteful to play. Generally they write essays while cleaning and shit. That drug is crazy.
I guess it affects people differently, maybe the games that your friends were playing were not that demanding. If you look at a top level SC player, they are constantly thinking of ways they could be countered or harassed so they prepare for that and make counter moves. That is high level gaming, not everyone thinks that way and it is hard to train yourself to do it. Are your friends at that level? I'm assuming that for the average gamer that doesn't think like that it would just make them concentrate on the things that they do think about and if that isn't that much then they lose interest. But if you are constantly rethinking different possibilities then it would help you stay focused on the game.
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I personally can vouch for the fact that if you don't personally have ADHD and take adderall, you will become better at ANY game you are playing. I think whoever is denying this fact just doesn't want to un-legitimize some of the players- but look at HuK, in his interview at MLG you can see in his eyes he was clearly on something and isn't it kind of odd that in the GSL WC he was pretty damn bad and didn't seem focused at all? I think he might not have had what he needed...
BUT, I'm not trying to offend or make him look bad. I just think it would be very disappointing to find out the top players were doing this, because people like me that want to go pro don't do these things, and if the best people are, there will be no way to compete with them.
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On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes.
Qft
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On April 06 2011 23:59 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes. Qft
wow great contribution to the discussion.
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On April 06 2011 23:57 ghostsquall wrote:
I personally can vouch for the fact that if you don't personally have ADHD and take adderall, you will become better at ANY game you are playing. I think whoever is denying this face just doesn't want to un-legitimize some of the players- but look at HuK, in his interview at MLG you can see in his eyes he was clearly on something and isn't it kind of odd that in the GSL WC he was pretty damn bad and didn't seem focused at all? I think he might not have had what he needed...
I somewhat disagree that it's much of an advantage. I compare my replays on-amps and off-amps and they aren't much different, it just feels like you're playing a lot better at the actual time, and just feels like you are multitasking and doing everything better. When infact it can actually make you sloppy as well as you focus too much on one thing on not others. It's got disadvantages too and overall unless you want to get a marathon practice session in, at the highest level i don't think that an amphetamine is going to give you an edge over a player.
But for practice purposes sure it will help a lot. But then you still gotta deal with coming down off the stims too so again that's a double-edged sword as well.
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On April 06 2011 21:21 KinosJourney2 wrote:
It should be forbidden for those who doesn't have to actually take them.
You should turn in some medical paper as proof to show that you aren't just using them for the advantage.
the problem is that absolutely anyone in the US can do this if they see enough doctors. i don't know about other countries. especially near "college towns," this is how a lot of shitbag doctors make their $$. "hey did you hear that dr. gives out addy rx's like candy?" --> suddenly he gets a dozen more "patients."
i agree that it would also be used more for practice than the real games (though you would have to use it all the time because of withdrawal). i don't really know how it works, but who can't actually concentrate in the gsl? lol, something that calms the nerves would give a bigger advantage.
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First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried.
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On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried.
it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect.
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On April 06 2011 23:57 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:48 xLethargicax wrote:
After reading all ten pages of this, I have a few things I'd like to add to the discussion that were passed up in the sea of comments.
1. I think it's really disrespectful to a player like HuK to blindly insinuate he was on adderral. Think about where he was, 4 hours of sleep, and an hour or so before huge career matches. If I was in his position I would have chugged the fuck out of some coffee. Whether he did anything or not isn't even what I mean to touch on, but the fact someone would blindly, and callously say he was on adderall is so absurd.
2. I do not have personal experience with Adderral, as the drug really scares me, but I have some friends that take it for recreation every now and again. I'm always interested in how a person feels on drugs so I have vicariously explored the drug through them, and I feel like I could say this with authority; I do not believe Adderall would help playing Starcraft at all. EVERY single one of my friends who have taken Adderall while trying to game have told me it's near impossible. They've all told me it's too easy to focus on a game and they feel like they have spare brain power to use so it feels wasteful to play. Generally they write essays while cleaning and shit. That drug is crazy. I guess it affects people differently, maybe the games that your friends were playing were not that demanding. If you look at a top level SC player, they are constantly thinking of ways they could be countered or harassed so they prepare for that and make counter moves. That is high level gaming, not everyone thinks that way and it is hard to train yourself to do it. Are your friends at that level? I'm assuming that for the average gamer that doesn't think like that it would just make them concentrate on the things that they do think about and if that isn't that much then they lose interest. But if you are constantly rethinking different possibilities then it would help you stay focused on the game.
Yeah, that is a really good point. I'm sure the amount I use my brain while playing SC/2 is like 1/8th that of a top player. Thanks for bringing that up, I'm not sure how it slipped my mind, haha.
Anyways, I didn't mention this in my previous post but yeah, I'd have to agree with the portion of people saying it's just too hard to enforce. In a perfect world no one would have attention disorders and then we could test, but alas, we do not live in a utopia! :[
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United States1218 Posts
Anti-doping rules in all sports are frankly stupid.
What is it that we admire about professional athletes or players? Its obviously not that they were born with a special talent, because then we'd admire everyone who won the lottery just as much, if not more. The only remaining option that is vaguely believable is that we admire the effort they're putting into their pursuit, and the skill rewards that entails for them.
In essence, we admire professionals for the fact that they are arguably ruining every other aspect of their lives to perfect one aspect. Doing anything for the vast majority of your time isn't "healthy" in conventional senses, but we still admire everyone who does it, as long as they picked the right thing to do.
Consider the following:
Person A chooses to devote 12 hours of his day, every day, to the pursuit of an unhittable pitch. He works out to throw harder and faster, he practices his motion to ensure he can repeat the pitch without ruining joints, and above all he practices actually pitching so he is accurate and controlled. As a result of this, he has little to no social life, he doesn't get to partake of enjoyable foods or beverages, and he goes to bed every night with every muscle on his body aching.
Person B chooses, instead, to devote 6 hours a day to that same pursuit, but chooses also to use some PED. He thus has more time to devote to social concerns, he doesn't have to worry as much about his diet (he probably does but whatever the example works either way), and perhaps he doesn't hurt as much when he goes to bed. But he's taking PEDs, which have side effects of their own*. Maybe his balls shrink to the size of peas. Maybe he is constantly furious with people for minor things.
It doesn't really matter what the costs are - the point is, both people in the above hypothetical have made a choice to sacrifice quality of life in certain areas in order to achieve a goal. The goal is no different between the two, by definition, and in all important respects their methodology is no different, either. Why, then, is Person A the consummate professional athlete and Person B a cheater? They both did the same thing.
*If they don't, there isn't even an argument against their use. I am not, and you should not be concerned with spectating the best play possible given a set of arbitrary constraints (namely, unenhanced human capability) above and beyond the set that already exists in the rules of the game/sport. We are interested in seeing amazing play, not amazing play given a bunch of disadvantages. There's even a strong argument that PEDs, since they were invented and created by humans, should be included within the realm of "unenhanced human capability".
You don't even have to get into the practical concerns of enforcement to come to the conclusion that anti-doping is a pretty silly endeavor, since it basically hurts everyone and only benefits people under an extremely strict (and flawed) understanding of benefit.
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On April 06 2011 23:57 ghostsquall wrote:
I personally can vouch for the fact that if you don't personally have ADHD and take adderall, you will become better at ANY game you are playing. I think whoever is denying this fact just doesn't want to un-legitimize some of the players- but look at HuK, in his interview at MLG you can see in his eyes he was clearly on something and isn't it kind of odd that in the GSL WC he was pretty damn bad and didn't seem focused at all? I think he might not have had what he needed...
BUT, I'm not trying to offend or make him look bad. I just think it would be very disappointing to find out the top players were doing this, because people like me that want to go pro don't do these things, and if the best people are, there will be no way to compete with them.
Isn't a bit harsh to point fingers without anything to back it up with? Is this going to become a thread with list of suspects now.
A statement like that can really affect a player, if 80% dislike the use and then finds out that player X is doing it, he will be fucked.
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On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect.
So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players...
edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions
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On April 07 2011 00:21 Jiddra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:57 ghostsquall wrote:
I personally can vouch for the fact that if you don't personally have ADHD and take adderall, you will become better at ANY game you are playing. I think whoever is denying this fact just doesn't want to un-legitimize some of the players- but look at HuK, in his interview at MLG you can see in his eyes he was clearly on something and isn't it kind of odd that in the GSL WC he was pretty damn bad and didn't seem focused at all? I think he might not have had what he needed...
BUT, I'm not trying to offend or make him look bad. I just think it would be very disappointing to find out the top players were doing this, because people like me that want to go pro don't do these things, and if the best people are, there will be no way to compete with them. Isn't a bit harsh to point fingers without anything to back it up with? Is this going to become a thread with list of suspects now. A statement like that can really affect a player, if 80% dislike the use and then finds out that player X is doing it, he will be fucked.
Except that being liked in gaming does benefit you... Sure it is nice and you might be chosen to advertise some hardware but in the end, winning gets you money, not being liked by people.
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This thread seems to come up every month or so. Always filled with increbile misconceptions about the effects of methylphenidate and related drugs. God I hate this thread...
On April 06 2011 23:51 infinity2k9 wrote:
Oh btw great post by PraetorianX. The way the ADHD symptoms are so wide as to include anyone is really quite manipulative and obviously to benefit pharma companies. Literally anyone can go down a checklist of the supposed effects of ADHD and decide they have a form of it. I can fit most of them but reality is i'm just lazy, it's not that i literally cannot focus cause i need amphetamines to do so.
It's the same with the sickening over-prescribing of SSRI's for depression.
If you honestly think ADHD is diagnosed by the symptoms listed on wikipedia then you are woefully misinformed.
And if you think people can just look at a checklist and 'decide' they have ADHD then I don't really think you should be voicing any opinion on the subject.
Overdiagnosis of AHDH in the US doesn't make the disorder or it's effects any less real.
Well, I'm actually a doctor (technically still a medical student) here in Sweden
Yay, finally a internet doctor... please inform us with your glorious knowledge of this neurological disorder.
So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly.
ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it.
So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly.
ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it.
Oh... I see. I guess this is the difference between a medical student and an actual doctor.
Not that it's uncommon for medical students to presume they actually know everthing but surely you could have done some minor research before posting that turd.
ADHD can be observed and diagnosed by functional imaging (such as SPECT and fMRI). And the genetic contribution to these traits is routinely found to be among the highest for any psychiatric disorder (70–95% of trait variation in the population), nearly approaching the genetic contribution to human height.
As a matter of science, the notion that ADHD does not exist is simply wrong. All of the major medical associations and government health agencies recognize ADHD as a genuine disorder because the scientific evidence indicating it is so overwhelming.
Let me just say that again. No professional medical, psychological, or scientific organization
doubts the existence of ADHD as a legitimate disorder.
This leads me to ask, where excactly are you studying medicine and what field are you studying?
edit:
As a medical professional, I can almost guarantee that many SC2 players (and commentators) are taking amphetamine since I recognize the effects of the medication in their behaviour. The most blatant example is H to the Usky Husky. The speed and manner in which he speaks is typical for a medicated ADHD patient.
This is really something special. You can almost guarantee this, right? Because surely a "medical professional" would notice that the way husky speaks is actually typical for an unmedicated ADHD patient. If he was using methylphenidate in any form and still spoke like that he'd probably be the most hyperactive individual the world has ever seen. Because y'know methylphenidate actually has a strong, calming effect on people with ADHD... but surely you knew that, being a medical professional and all.
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Like I said, I'm not trying to offend, but I know I'm not the only person that noticed how fidgety HuK was compared to normal. There's no way to stop this from happening at all, so the best way to handle it (in my eyes of course) is to point fingers and get people aware of it. I've mentioned top competitors "doping" to play better to people and they just kind of roll their eyes at me, but I feel like I KNOW at least some of them have to be doing it, and benefiting from it. I remember in particular a few interviews during GSL where the player could not stop blinking and just looked generally like he was on drugs. It's really bad in my eyes, and also makes me feel like there is certain skill gaps between certain foreigners.
But again, this is my opinion, if any of the players would like to just step up and clarify (as in HuK) that they weren't doing anything, be my guest, but until then they are suspect in my eyes.
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On April 07 2011 00:27 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote:On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions
well yeah but if goody took adderall, maybe he would practice and focus enough to stop getting supply blocked every 2 minutes and queuing up 5 SCVs at a time every 3 minutes, and he would be that much better. but it's just impossible to police, so what's the point really? people who think it can be policed simply have a very wrong view of how easy it is to get a rx.
honestly though, i suppose i wonder. i hear that with addy, sometimes you can only focus on one thing really at a time, wonder how that works with multitasking. i've studied with people who have taken it, and all the time i am like, "i really don't think that point is important. i really don't think that will be on the exam, LET IT GO MAN." lol
the SC2 equivalent would be "YO stop trying to save every marine left from your drop, THERES BANSHEES IN YOUR BASE!!!" or "don't worry about queuing, THERE ARE BANELINGS ROLLING TOWARDS YOU!" heh
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''Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import.''
Quoted from Wikipedia, just thought I'd ad it here.
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On April 06 2011 19:23 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 18:10 mr_tolkien wrote:
As it is an intelectual sport, if you begin to ban ANYTHING that improves your awarness, you're off tho forbiding coffee and make players drink only water for 2 days before their matches, in fear of being controlled positive...
It's really hard to determine the difference between «cheating» and «playing in the best conditions».
Therefore I won't vote with such simplistic options in the poll. line is crossed when its not needed drugs. pretty simple. its not a question if you could improve your play by taking the right stuff. from all the way overused performance drugs they give out like candy these days over simple speed to cocaine. but that should in no way be promoted or even allowed. Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 19:23 Novalisk wrote:
First it must be proven that an advantage is indeed given.
Drug control isn't cheap. if you question this then you have no clue sorry. thats like questioning if beer makes you piss more. you dont need research to proof it when evryone who has any expirience with it can tell you its true ~.
As a biochemistry major I call bullshit on the bottom part. I can't stand people saying conclusive research is not needed and pure experience from select group is a good representation of the actual effects a certain substance has in general.
The metabolic pathways are studied, yes, but how much does this affect actual performance is still not conclusive. There are good indications but more research needs to be done.
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On April 07 2011 00:36 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:27 AlBundy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote:On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions well yeah but if goody took adderall, maybe he would practice and focus enough to stop getting supply blocked every 2 minutes and queuing up 5 SCVs at a time every 3 minutes, and he would be that much better. but it's just impossible to police, so what's the point really? people who think it can be policed simply have a very wrong view of how easy it is to get a rx. honestly though, i suppose i wonder. i hear that with addy, sometimes you can only focus on one thing really at a time, wonder how that works with multitasking. i've studied with people who have taken it, and all the time i am like, "i really don't think that point is important. i really don't think that will be on the exam, LET IT GO MAN." lol the SC2 equivalent would be "YO stop trying to save every marine left from your drop, THERES BANSHEES IN YOUR BASE!!!" or "don't worry about queuing, THERE ARE BANELINGS ROLLING TOWARDS YOU!" heh
Ok I can understand that, thanks for clarifying your point of view.
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On April 07 2011 00:27 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote:On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions
Or maybe the player base isn't half as good at Starcraft II as they want to believe they are?
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As a spectator - I just want to see great games. If some players find benefit in a few stims before the game - fair play.
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On April 07 2011 01:22 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:27 AlBundy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote:On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions Or maybe the player base isn't half as good at Starcraft II as they want to believe they are?
I feel you on this point. People talk about the "volatile" aspect of Sc2, I'd say that the players' skill is certainly a major factor. Unfortunately this might be a bit off-topic, but overall you are right; current "top" players are definitely nowhere near the skill ceiling.
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There are some individuals who function exceptionally poorly at day-to-day tasks without the help of stimulants.
The greatest problems lie in differentiating between those who take stimulants for day-to-day functioning, and those who consume them for performance enhancement at competitive gaming.
Additionally, there is considerable ambiguity in what personality characteristics indeed necessitate or qualify one for consumption of stimulants. Not to be mistaken, this ambiguity exists and is dealt with on a rather arbitrary basis by the doctors prescribing drugs such as a Methylphenidate.
This is a difficult question which could rightly be answered either way.
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On April 06 2011 10:20 Audio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No. Another problem is adderall is a very easy prescription to obtain. even if this were enforced it would still be abused IMHO.
It does not matter if a substance is legal for it to be banned from a league
Football (NFL) bans tons of chemicals found in common health supplements
So even if you had an Adderall script, it could still be banned from the GSL
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It's a problem. It's stupidly easy to get prescribed to you when you have no legitimate reason to take it. I have so many friends that magically developed ADHD over summer when we finished high school.
If you really have ADHD there's no way in hell you're a SC2 progamer w/o amphetamine that's for sure.
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On April 06 2011 22:47 above wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 22:37 PJA wrote:On April 06 2011 22:22 above wrote:On April 06 2011 22:03 Adeeler wrote:On April 06 2011 21:55 above wrote:On April 06 2011 21:51 PJA wrote:On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
So basically, there are drugs that affect every possible important chemical in your brain, which you admittedly say affect "well, everything." Yet, you don't think they can possibly affect concentration and make you perform at a higher level. Get the fuck out of here with your irrational bullshit hidden behind trying to call out others and the whole "war on drugs" nonsense. It has nothing to do with irrational fear of drugs. You obviously have no idea how the brain works. Emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games. Nothing in the world can increase your brain and mental functions to a high enough degree in Which taking it would create an unfair advantage. This isn't limitless. Science has it's limits. Erm, drugs do and can increase your mental functions to give an advantage. A side effect of some parkinson's treatments are drugs that do exactly this and are used by students to give them an advantage before exams especially. It's like how you should always have a Mars bar before an exam just for the suger/glucose to help you perform or lucozade before/during sports. My point being, it is not a positive relationship. Amphetamines and like substances (Adderall, Riatlin, Concerta, etc) are double edged swords. Yes you will be able to sit in on place for a lot longer and not get bored, but they other side of it is that it lowers your perceived effort, increases heart rate (which increases anxiety and jumpiness), gives you overconfidence which makes you make bad decisions early on, and the list goes on and on... The reason colleges ban it or have code against it is because it lets you sit there and study for much longer without getting side tracked or getting tired, not because it makes you smarter. You dont understand stuff you didn't understand before you took it, you dont have a higher mental capacity, and it doesn't make you smarter. In all reality, cramming is a stupid thing to do in the first place, and the fact that you'd be in the position just goes to show you that the best habits are already not in place.... If ANYTHING, it could be semi-viable as a training drug to increase the hours possible, but as a performance drug, its not viable at all, and even more so, detrimental to the user. And in response to the candy bar, its because your brain uses glucose when you think and the sugar can help replenish that, but its even more effective to eat a light meal before an exam due to you getting a full supplemental supply, and not just sugar which is temporary. I wouldn't troll you so hard if your first post wasn't so completely and fundamentally flawed, but once again, where is your proof? You keep saying that drugs can affect your ability to function mentally in a negative way, but that there is no way to gain an unfair advantage. Although it certainly doesn't constitute proof, there is a huge amount of evidence that drugs can improve your cognitive performance. Top players in halo and SC2 both use ritalin/adderall to play better, and these substances are banned in top chess and go tournaments. Now, all of these people could be riding the placebo train, but I see no reason to believe this a priori, and my personal experiences with the effects of caffeine contradict everything you are saying. Clearly these drugs cannot make you know things you didn't previously know, but they can improve concentration. I don't even understand how you can think that isn't a huge benefit while playing SC2, especially if you have to play 10+ games in a row at MLG or something. Even ignoring the cognitive effects, the way that some drugs affect a person physically could allow them to react more quickly, giving them an edge. I'm not saying that drugs are without a doubt giving people an unfair advantage, but I'm pretty sure your complete certainty that they don't is based on the understanding of the brain that you obtained in some sophomore level psychology class. Why don't you go look up any study done on an amp-based molceule. Comparine Caffeine to Adderall is like comparing Acetaminophen to Hydromorphone. Apples and oranges. Better concentration at the cost of bad decision making. Sounds beneficial. And ya, I get paid for working at my pharmacological lab with my sophomore psychology class education. QQ.
If it's so easy to find a study which supports the fact that the effects of drugs is not beneficial to cognitive functions related to SC2, link one. Since you apparently are well educated in this field and know of at least a few studies that back your claims that "Emotional and cognitive effects are not related to your skill sets of playing games." etc., it shouldn't be very difficult.
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as a spectator i want to see the best most insane games ive ever seen. If people feel the need to do drugs to accomplish that why should i care as long as its entertaining to watch?
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I don't have time to look into Adderall in particular right now, but if causes any significant health risks or a competitive advantage it should not be allowed.
But do we really want players drug tested? That's expensive and time consuming and smacks of silliness in this context, in my view. Also, what about other stimulants like caffeine? Should that be outlawed? Questions like these are less clear to me, but banning this particular drug seems like a no-brainer to me.
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Are there people actually trying to say amphetamine wouldn't make you play better?
Have you ever taken speed before? My guess is no. If I was a SC2 progamer, I sure he hell would be taking amphetamine in every tournament I played it. If your job is to win, why not take 20 mg of adderall? It will help you immensely.
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absolutely no way to enforce it, nothing can be done about it really
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On April 07 2011 01:22 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:27 AlBundy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote:On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions Or maybe the player base isn't half as good at Starcraft II as they want to believe they are?
hardly any pros will get supply blocked for no reason. most pros only get supply blocked for more than a second or two when there is other stuff going on on the map. and sometimes godly micro is indeed more important than a slight supply block.
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To add on to some of the things other people have said, regarding the GSL and Adderall usage-
In South Korea (and other Asian countries, Japan in particular) ADD and ADHD are NOT recognized as legitimate conditions; failure to focus on tasks and other symptoms commonly associated with these two conditions are just seen as parenting failure.
As such, as other users have noted, Adderall is illegal to possess or import in these countries, prescription or not, particularly because they're not going to honor a prescription for what they think is a made-up illness.
IMO, whether or not the drugs help significantly with SC2 performance or not is inconsequential in the face of the general illegality of the substance in South Korea.
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i actually do have to take painkillers every day and i feel like it negatively affects my ability to play sc2 quite a lot..don't know about adderall and stuff like that...
but i don't rly think it's too big of a problem yet. i just can't imagine it having such a huge impact on your skill
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Well, here are some more implications to consider.
If you decide to ban "psychostimulants" you'll also have to target caffeine, a drug which Americans and I'm sure many other countries tend to consume in vast quantity. Caffeine also metabolizes relatively fast in the body so a drug test would also have to be done soon after consumption.
The NCAA bans caffeine and other psycho-stimulatory drugs, however, currently I doubt there's enough money in Starcraft 2 for progamers to live comfortably let alone money in the industry to police the abuse of these drugs.
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On April 07 2011 01:39 Yukizilla wrote:
To add on to some of the things other people have said, regarding the GSL and Adderall usage-
In South Korea (and other Asian countries, Japan in particular) ADD and ADHD are NOT recognized as legitimate conditions; failure to focus on tasks and other symptoms commonly associated with these two conditions are just seen as parenting failure.
As such, as other users have noted, Adderall is illegal to possess or import in these countries, prescription or not, particularly because they're not going to honor a prescription for what they think is a made-up illness.
IMO, whether or not the drugs help significantly with SC2 performance or not is inconsequential in the face of the general illegality of the substance in South Korea.
The part in bold is incorrect. Korea and indeed every fucking half-developed country in the world recognizes the DSM-IV.
They do have different treatment methods but they sure as hell don't think it is a 'made-up illness'.
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If the person has a doctor's note, allow it. Otherwise GTFO the adderall and compete w/o it.
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I think we should have separate brackets for nondrugged players and players taking ritalin.
Even more interestingly, we should have a bracket without drugs, then rematches with the same players of every match-up and see how the results differ. How wonderful it'd be...I wonder what sorts of variables we'd have to measure. APM for sure, but that's spammable. Amount of time supply blocked is good, harvester production rate...
If this experiment were ever to be carried out (it probably won't sadly), we could really observe the effects of such drugs in a tournament, Starcraft II setting. Although the previously mentioned article does a good job of elucidating the effects of stimulants, it only applies to counterstrike, which arguably requires less multitasking and "focus" than Starcraft II.
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I don't really care if its a prescription or not. If it's a prescription and you start having big money, that prescription aint so hard to get after all. At the end of the day if any league enforces it..their leagues their rules, deal with it. Its not discrimination when its an organization doing as they please. Its not a public organization.
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I believe mind also took some drugs to help him focus in the finals against  Bisu a long time ago(read it in interview)
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What do you expect them to do in online tournaments? Theres no way to test against that.
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This is something I'm very much against. I know someone who's mentioned playing Sc2 with Adderal (but long story short he's still in Bronze so I don't think the drug does anything lol). Honestly, I think that the drug takes your edge off because it is very possible to be over energetic, making mistakes you wouldn't normally (misclicking, using bad judgment based on hyper analysis).
Play the game straight, play it right, and you'll get more respect. E-sports should serve as a good example for ethics!
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As long as the drug itself is legal to purchase and use, i have no problems with it. Player should have the freedom to choose and if the drug has harmful sideeffects, it their choice. If you start restricting concentration drugs(which are legal) - how far will you go? Will you also start restricting sodas that players drink that contain caffeine or other energy drinks which are also arguably harmful to the body. What about a player who needs to smoke before a big match to carm his nerves?
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On April 07 2011 01:26 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:22 MichaelJLowell wrote:On April 07 2011 00:27 AlBundy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote:On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions Or maybe the player base isn't half as good at Starcraft II as they want to believe they are? I feel you on this point. People talk about the "volatile" aspect of Sc2, I'd say that the players' skill is certainly a major factor. Unfortunately this might be a bit off-topic, but overall you are right; current "top" players are definitely nowhere near the skill ceiling.
Eh, was the post that caught my attention. When players have been playing Starcraft II for four and five years, then people can talk about whether the skill cap has been reached.
On April 07 2011 01:37 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:22 MichaelJLowell wrote:On April 07 2011 00:27 AlBundy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote:On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote:
First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons.
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours.
So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions Or maybe the player base isn't half as good at Starcraft II as they want to believe they are? hardly any pros will get supply blocked for no reason. most pros only get supply blocked for more than a second or two when there is other stuff going on on the map. and sometimes godly micro is indeed more important than a slight supply block.
I was addressing the post on the basis of its claim that mechanics currently don't play the same impact because the skill level isn't as high as it was towards the end of Brood War. Different mechanics, different game, new learning period. The strategy element of Brood War was much easier to get a competent hand around than mechanics, but competent decision-making is currently more important at that level of play. That's why strategy can propel sloppy mechanics to victory. Or something like that.
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flodeskum explain why the USA has more ADHD prescriptions than the rest of the world put together? People self-diagnosing from places like wikipedia, going to the doctor and getting meds based on simply requesting them happens a lot more than you are suggesting. You speak to Americans people online, literally everyone knows someone on Adderall or has some experience with it. Here in the UK i know of one person total, a child, who is prescribed an ADHD drug. Everyone elses experience is with illicit amphetamines.
ADHD is probably real.. but every case of it? Far from it. Far far from it. People who genuinely have it can't think straight because their thoughts are racing so fast from subject to subject they literally CANNOT focus. This isn't the case for most of the people being prescribed meds for it though. Its just, 'Oh i have trouble studying' and bam there you go. Well who doesn't have trouble?
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As other people have said already it's kind of impossible to ban performance enhancers from organized gaming tournaments, at least in the US and other countries where they can be obtained easily.
I myself have taken adderall and played Starcraft, and i found that it gave me amazing focus and boosted my apm by a bit (about 130-140 as opposed to 110-120). However it didn't really make me better at the game per se, just more determined.
Similiarly i just can't ladder without drinking coffee first. It just gives me an edge. I think if we take measures to ban performance enhancers then we're going to run into a lot of trouble and scandal because at major tournaments adderall/caffeine doping are almost universal.
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On April 07 2011 01:51 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:39 Yukizilla wrote:
To add on to some of the things other people have said, regarding the GSL and Adderall usage-
In South Korea (and other Asian countries, Japan in particular) ADD and ADHD are NOT recognized as legitimate conditions; failure to focus on tasks and other symptoms commonly associated with these two conditions are just seen as parenting failure.
As such, as other users have noted, Adderall is illegal to possess or import in these countries, prescription or not, particularly because they're not going to honor a prescription for what they think is a made-up illness.
IMO, whether or not the drugs help significantly with SC2 performance or not is inconsequential in the face of the general illegality of the substance in South Korea. The part in bold is incorrect. Korea and indeed every fucking half-developed country in the world recognizes the DSM-IV. They do have different treatment methods but they sure as hell don't think it is a 'made-up illness'.
Way to ignore the point. Even conceding that the diagnosis is legitimate and that there are alternate treatment methods, Adderall itself is still an illegal substance in that country, much like the possession of crack cocaine is in the US. Yes, there are ways to get it, but there's no legal or legitimate reason for you to have it for competitive SC/SC2 in South Korea.
Also, since you are someone who denotes their country as Iceland, I believe that since most of Europe uses the ICD 10, not the DSM-IV, that statistically you would know that the DSM-IV qualifies something like 4 times the amount of cases for ADHD than the ICD 10 (which is, by the by, what South Korea officially recognizes, albeit modified). Please also read up on the social construct theory of ADHD.
Above paragraph still completely moot in the face of Adderall is not legal in South Korea, period. It's not just about the time and money it would take to test all the players, but please also consider the amount of trouble the leagues and teams would get in from the actual gov't for not at least attempting to monitor such drug abuse.
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On April 07 2011 01:36 chonkyfire wrote:
Are there people actually trying to say amphetamine wouldn't make you play better?
Have you ever taken speed before? My guess is no. If I was a SC2 progamer, I sure he hell would be taking amphetamine in every tournament I played it. If your job is to win, why not take 20 mg of adderall? It will help you immensely.
Yes i've taken loads of it, and i do mean loads, and no i don't agree it doesn't make you play any better. You'll certainly think you are while you're playing though.
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I think a major difference people are making with performance enhancing drugs, is that in starcraft, taking amphetamine based drugs will not instantly make you a better player, nor are they required to become a good player. In some sports, such as 100m or weightlifting, to win you pretty much have to cycle a steroid at some point in your career. Substances such as ephedrine or other amphetamine based drugs are legal in training, because the effects are minimal and limited. Starcraft players who take them on the other hand are only playing at their best. If I suddenly go 1gate expand in PvP, taking drugs is not going to help me hold the inevitable 4gate.
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Well think about it this way.. in baseball / football / almost any other sport there are cheaters.. there are people who do Steroids I mean we aren't dumb there are people that take some type of drug to help them... Now with this there will be people taking drugs for gaming to make them play better, I can remember in CounterStrike 1.6 the fact was if I smoked a lil weed before I played, I played better I played almost unstoppable that is when CPL said well we are going to "drug" test people before they can play in the CPL. From what I know it was never enforced.. But The fact is we cant stop it.. I am sure someone is already doing it.. just to get an edge up i am sure of it. We cant stop that person... So it really donst matter.
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On April 06 2011 23:57 ghostsquall wrote:
I personally can vouch for the fact that if you don't personally have ADHD and take adderall, you will become better at ANY game you are playing. I think whoever is denying this fact just doesn't want to un-legitimize some of the players- but look at HuK, in his interview at MLG you can see in his eyes he was clearly on something and isn't it kind of odd that in the GSL WC he was pretty damn bad and didn't seem focused at all? I think he might not have had what he needed...
BUT, I'm not trying to offend or make him look bad. I just think it would be very disappointing to find out the top players were doing this, because people like me that want to go pro don't do these things, and if the best people are, there will be no way to compete with them.
Holy wow dude....You claim to be able to see the pupil to iris ratio in HuKs eyes in his various interviews.
That alone just doesn't work sir, sorry. Also, you use his games vs MVP which he even explains in one of his interviews. He was scared of MVP as most people would be, didn't push in when he normally would cause it was MVP and metal blocks got in the way.
You and people like you, quick to judgement on 0 facts, only "feelings", and very vocal about how "bad" players are if they lose a single game or series. YOU are the cancer that is ruining this wonderful place.
Just leave.
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usual TL response...
these kinds of drugs are pretty common and used by a wide variety of people. nothing to be on guard about. it doesnt effect mental capacity or skill. sorry brahz
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I'm not against it if someone who doesn't like his testicles wants to show us some dope gameplay. But, we can't expect every single player to give up on their testicles just for the sake of equality. So, this is absolutely no. Still, they can do it outside tournaments if they want.
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On April 07 2011 02:38 Djagulingu wrote:
I'm not against it if someone who doesn't like his testicles wants to show us some dope gameplay. But, we can't expect every single player to give up on their testicles just for the sake of equality. So, this is absolutely no. Still, they can do it outside tournaments if they want.
the thousands of dollars are definitely not incentive, its clearly just showing "dope gameplay" that people would dope for.
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I'm curious as to why the GSL is mentioned in the OP, when TT1 has twice come out in this thread to clarify that it isn't the case. What's the deal? To garner more attention, or is TT1 backtracking?
Edit: not only mentioned, but underlined...
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On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes.
+1 to this. from someone who needs and takes ritalin, and would not be able to function like a normal person without it. I guess it does sound bad that players take it at tourneys when they don't actually need it though.
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On April 07 2011 02:11 infinity2k9 wrote:
flodeskum explain why the USA has more ADHD prescriptions than the rest of the world put together? People self-diagnosing from places like wikipedia, going to the doctor and getting meds based on simply requesting them happens a lot more than you are suggesting. You speak to Americans people online, literally everyone knows someone on Adderall or has some experience with it. Here in the UK i know of one person total, a child, who is prescribed an ADHD drug. Everyone elses experience is with illicit amphetamines.
ADHD is probably real.. but every case of it? Far from it. Far far from it. People who genuinely have it can't think straight because their thoughts are racing so fast from subject to subject they literally CANNOT focus. This isn't the case for most of the people being prescribed meds for it though. Its just, 'Oh i have trouble studying' and bam there you go. Well who doesn't have trouble?
I'd love for you to give me a source on the parts in bold.
It's well known that ADHD was (and probably still is) overdiagnosed in the US. Made possible by their unique health care system and their powerful drug industry. This doesn't affect the validity of the disorder in the slightest.
On April 07 2011 02:17 Yukizilla wrote:Way to ignore the point. Even conceding that the diagnosis is legitimate and that there are alternate treatment methods, Adderall itself is still an illegal substance in that country, much like the possession of crack cocaine is in the US. Yes, there are ways to get it, but there's no legal or legitimate reason for you to have it for competitive SC/SC2 in South Korea.
I only addressed the part in bold, I thought that much was clear when I said "The part in bold is incorrect".
And let's be honest here. The part in bold was not only incorrect but inflammatory bullshit.
Also, since you are someone who denotes their country as Iceland, I believe that since most of Europe uses the ICD 10, not the DSM-IV, that statistically you would know that the DSM-IV qualifies something like 4 times the amount of cases for ADHD than the ICD 10 (which is, by the by, what South Korea officially recognizes, albeit modified). Please also read up on the social construct theory of ADHD.
Above paragraph still completely moot in the face of Adderall is not legal in South Korea, period. It's not just about the time and money it would take to test all the players, but please also consider the amount of trouble the leagues and teams would get in from the actual gov't for not at least attempting to monitor such drug abuse.
You do realize that recognition of the DSM-IV and the ICD 10 are not mutually exclusive? For the actual practice of diagnosis sure, but the actual recognition certainly isn't.
And since I have a phd in psychology I'm simply more familiar with the DSM.
Please also read up on the social construct theory of ADHD.
I'm well aware of that theory. In fact, I'd love to hear what you think of it and why.
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I know i'm way way way down this thread, but considering my sister is in the psychology field i can attest to a few things.
1) If you really want a RX for adderall or the likes, you can get it fairly easily, most psychiatrists won't turn down your request, whether you need it for ADD, ADHD, or not.
2) Even without an RX these drugs are incredibly easy to obtain, so many people have the RX's and are more then willing to sell/give away a pill or two here and there...as many people who have the RX's don't use the drugs on a daily basis and have extra.
3) It is medical fact that these drugs drastically increase your ability to focus, especially under stressful or distracting situations. This is why you see so many college kids dosing before midterms and finals...or while they study.
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no. even though they are risking potential side effects, I do not condone such act as it gives them unfair advantage.
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Of course it should be allowed. You can't hold esports to a sporting standard when shit like MLG Dallas goes down. What are they going to do, Drug test?? LOL. I mean seriously, or just use the "honor code", or pat down gamers like its an airport security? How could you possibly enforce this without making it a bigger joke then it already is to an outside viewer?
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What a crap topic...
Who cares? I wouldn't care if MC was coming into a booth with coke up his nose...
I watch SC2 for the matches...and if I happen to play someone on something which supposedly enhances their play...fair play to them...that's dedication.
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there is a difference between ADHD and ADD. I have the latter. I'm not hyperactive, I actually just can't focus and lose interest and/or fall asleep during everything. Even though I get plenty of sleep every night. I'm 25 and have a full time desk job now with meetings etc, and I need ritalin just to stay awake. I've been this was since I was in kindergarten, and my doctors throughout the years have always told me this.
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This has been a problem for 10 years in esports, Do you think a poll on a forum is going to magically clear it up? people will continue to dope as long as there is money on the line, look at athletes, they are all dopers, or taking some sort of HGH to stay on par, please dont delude yourself into thinking that your favourite player is exempt.
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Caffeine makes you more alert...
Ban energy drinks and coffee because it gives you an unfair advantage?
You guys are overreacting. They're not steroids.
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Aren't many of these pros having nerve issues? Stimulants will make things only worse, lol. I'd say some might benefit more from Xanax than Amphetamins. XD
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I've been trying to find a source as to whether using adderall is illegal in the Netherlands. It seems you can't attain it outside of being diagnosed with ADD, so possession of it might be a bit of a grey area. I wonder, if it actually was illegal (might be!), would it be fair to have, say, Ret being unable to use the medication as he's Dutch, but USA players could do so, since the laws might differ there.
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No performance enhancement drug should be allowed. That would be like smoking pot before participating in hot dog eating contest.
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On April 07 2011 02:52 Affluenza wrote:
What a crap topic...
Who cares? I wouldn't care if MC was coming into a booth with coke up his nose...
I watch SC2 for the matches...and if I happen to play someone on something which supposedly enhances their play...fair play to them...that's dedication.
So if I apply your logic to sports (ie. Track and Field), if you compete against a track athlete who takes performance enhancing drugs, fair play to them because that is dedication? o.O
If it really becomes a serious issue, I believe there has to be something done about it to ensure level playing field among all competitors.
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voted yes, because if everyone does it the playing field is level.
it's like steroids in baseball. they're banned, but there are always going to be people who do them. as long as they're banned, the few people who do them will get an advantage over those who obey the rules and don't. If they're legal, everyone takes them and no one has an unfair advantage.
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On April 07 2011 03:43 Grumbels wrote:
I've been trying to find a source as to whether using adderall is illegal in the Netherlands. It seems you can't attain it outside of being diagnosed with ADD, so possession of it might be a bit of a grey area. I wonder, if it actually was illegal (might be!), would it be fair to have, say, Ret being unable to use the medication as he's Dutch, but USA players could do so, since the laws might differ there.
According to this site possession of adderall is illegal in both the United States and the European Union without a prescription, so top players who use it would be breaking the law if they didn't take the trouble getting a prescription. Furthermore, the ease of getting a prescription apparently differs between the EU and the USA, giving NA players somewhat of a competitive advantage over EU players - all assuming adderall improves performance.
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lol @ topic, fucking drugies...
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I see a lot of people saying speed doesn't make you better.
What you have to understand is there is a difference between
+ Show Spoiler +
A gosu on speed and a noob on speed.
Also this whole hyperactive misclick/error theory is ridiculous. They give amphetamine to fighter pilots. Are they going to give someone who is flying a 150 million dollar plane something that will cause them to make errors? No.
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On April 07 2011 02:46 flodeskum wrote:
I'd love for you to give me a source on the parts in bold.
It's well known that ADHD was (and probably still is) overdiagnosed in the US. Made possible by their unique health care system and their powerful drug industry. This doesn't affect the validity of the disorder in the slightest.
I'm just going to casually point out that you have yet to cite anything in any of your posts and claiming to have a PhD in the subject on the Internet doesn't get you real far. Hell I think I'll go ask Dr Tran, he's a real doctor you know.
Anyways, as we seem to be throwing majors around here, I'm a Software Engineer which I guess makes me more qualified to post on the internet that the lot of you... or you know something like that...
On topic,
Also this whole hyperactive misclick/error theory is ridiculous. They give amphetamine to fighter pilots. Are they going to give someone who is flying a 150 million dollar plane something that will cause them to make errors? No.
That's a point that I've had in the back of my head since reading page 4ish of this thread, amphetamines are used in pretty dangerous situations to improve performance and I'm relatively certain that the US military has their shit together on this matter.
As for me, I've never taken anything like this in my life but I don't really care if pro sc2 players decided to, I'd be more concerned with the banning of this drug from tournaments having exceptions. Ban it or allow it, no middle ground here. As even in validly diagnosed medical cases all the drug does is help you concentrate I don't see how anyone can claim that they "need" this drug. I'm sure it helps with your day to day activities but its not like your hearts going to explode if you don't take it.
Furthermore I don't really understand the view that because someone was medically diagnosed with any given disorder that they *deserve* to take their medication to bring them up to speed. We don't give bikes to people who want to run an Olympic marathon because some guy with an MD said that they have a respirator problem and that ridding a bike would help them with these types of activity... That would be absurd. While no one really likes to hear it, some people are genetically inferior to others in certain aspects. If you have ADHD and it's deemed that amphetamines are unacceptable in pro gaming then I guess you're not going to get very far in sc professionally. No one expects the paraplegic to win the 100m dash.
In short, as a relatively left wing guy I don't really care about drug use, if everyone has the opportunity then there is no unfair advantage; however I see no good reason for non survival critical medication to be permitted at professional competitions where it would be otherwise banned just because you have a doctors note.
Edit: This is a little off topic at this point but the affects of Adderall on creativity ect were brought up earlier, from this article it seems thats inconclusive but the abstract suggests that it might have a "leveling" effect.
+ Show Spoiler +When we enhance cognition with Adderall, do we sacrifice creativity? A preliminary study.
Farah MJ, Haimm C, Sankoorikal G, Smith ME, Chatterjee A.
Center for Cognitive Neuroscience, University of Pennsylvania, 3720 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA. mfarah@psych.upenn.edu
Erratum in:
* Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2009 Apr;203(3):651. Smith, M Elizabeth [added].
Abstract
RATIONALE: Adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) is used by healthy normal individuals to enhance attention. Research with healthy normal participants and those with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder indicate a possible inverse relationship between attentional function and creativity. This raises the possibility that Adderall could decrease creativity in people using it for cognitive enhancement.
OBJECTIVE: This study was designed to find out whether Adderall impairs creativity in healthy young adults.
MATERIAL AND METHODS: In a double-blind placebo-controlled study, the effects of Adderall on the performance of 16 healthy young adults were measured on four tests of creativity from the psychological literature: two tasks requiring divergent thought and two requiring convergent thought.
RESULTS: Adderall affected performance on the convergent tasks only, in one case enhancing it, particularly for lower-performing individuals, and in the other case enhancing it for the lower-performing and impairing it for higher-performing individuals.
CONCLUSION: The preliminary evidence is inconsistent with the hypothesis that Adderall has an overall negative effect on creativity. Its effects on divergent creative thought cannot be inferred with confidence from this study because of the ambiguity of null results. Its effects on convergent creative thought appear to be dependent on the baseline creativity of the individual. Those in the higher range of the normal distribution may be unaffected or impaired, whereas those in the lower range of the normal distribution experience enhancement.
I'd link but its behind a subscription login so...
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I've played SC2 on adderall - it doesn't help.
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I still think it's funny that this thread has generated 14 pages with very few people mentioning the fact that it's illegal to obtain Adderall without a prescription. The poll in the OP asks us whether something that is illegal should be allowed.
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On April 07 2011 05:12 Doodsmack wrote:
I still think it's funny that this thread has generated 14 pages with very few people mentioning the fact that it's illegal to obtain Adderall without a prescription. The poll in the OP asks us whether something that is illegal should be allowed.
Speeding is illegal too dude - chill.
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jeremy morlock and the other rednecks in the us army also did consume illegal substances. also ot...
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I'd want to see an actual comparison between playing ability with and without these drugs, but my gut reaction is that anything that would give an unfair advantage to one player over the other should not be allowed.
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On April 07 2011 04:21 chonkyfire wrote:I see a lot of people saying speed doesn't make you better. What you have to understand is there is a difference between + Show Spoiler +
A gosu on speed and a noob on speed.
Also this whole hyperactive misclick/error theory is ridiculous. They give amphetamine to fighter pilots. Are they going to give someone who is flying a 150 million dollar plane something that will cause them to make errors? No.
This needs to be cleared up. First they are giving very small controlled doses, it's not what you would compare to a typical kid trying to feel high. Second, they use it for extremely long missions where error from fatigue becomes a big risk so they try to balance it out with the drugs. It's used for long term endurance, not at all a quick performance pickup. If you are already alert and well rested or if you are dosing enough to feel a strong high the amphetamine can likely cause errors from hyperactivity.
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On April 07 2011 03:59 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 03:43 Grumbels wrote:
I've been trying to find a source as to whether using adderall is illegal in the Netherlands. It seems you can't attain it outside of being diagnosed with ADD, so possession of it might be a bit of a grey area. I wonder, if it actually was illegal (might be!), would it be fair to have, say, Ret being unable to use the medication as he's Dutch, but USA players could do so, since the laws might differ there. According to this site possession of adderall is illegal in both the United States and the European Union without a prescription, so top players who use it would be breaking the law if they didn't take the trouble getting a prescription. Furthermore, the ease of getting a prescription apparently differs between the EU and the USA, giving NA players somewhat of a competitive advantage over EU players - all assuming adderall improves performance.
Someone probably said this already but it is ridiculously easy for anyone in America to get adderall. Go to any psychiatrist and say "hi I have trouble focusing". They'll give you a piece of paper with like "on a scale of 1 to 10.... how much trouble is this for you" and you just put 10 everywhere it seems like adderall would help. What are they going to do give you a brain scan to see if you actually had ADD? Nah.
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the idea of people using drugs for video games make me LOL hard
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Ok, as a sc2 player that has ADHD and is perscribed concerta (just like adderall), I believe it should be allowed. I am only a diamond league player, but I notice little, if any, difference when I am on my meds compared to when I am not on my meds and playing. If you really care about your games and get into everyone like it was a tournament, adrenaline takes over which is basically what adderall is, and you focus just fine. I almost play worse when I am on my meds because it is extra adrenaline and I start to overthink things. My clicking sometimes gets shakey, and I start thinking about all the ways the guy can kill me instead of thinking about my build n executing it to my best. Hope this gives a lilttle insight, but it may be different for someone that takes it and doesnt have ADD or ADHD.
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If its there, when I do coke and play video games, my attention to small details , reaction times and its almost like everything is in slow motion. I can almost say I play at least 50% better when Im high. I dont do coke everyday, nor am I addicted. Its definatly a party drug that friends will have before we head out to the bars.
But just saying, if it has this effect on me, I cant immagine the effect it could have on an elite pro gamer. And if adderal is even better (never tried it) but they are similar in how they effect the body in some ways. I think it should be banned, if they call it a SPORT at the pro leval they should do random piss tests or after BIG tournments they should piss after a tournment.
I know this sounds soo dumb, coke is dumb dont ever do it. im an idiot for even doing it.
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On April 06 2011 23:51 GreEny K wrote:
Ok so let us say that the community does say that the frown upon people who use PED's... What then? Since you say that enforcability is not an issue then what is the purpose of the community making it clear that they are against PED use?
Simple. Some people who are on the fence won't use a performance enhancing drug because they aren't sure that it's a good idea and a rule encourages them to follow the little voice in their heads. Some people will get caught and dealt with appropriately because someone turns them in. And, of course, some will do it and get away with it, but that would be true no matter what kind of enforcement there were.
What I find kind of absurd about this whole discussion is the idea that because the most effective type of enforcement, blood or urine testing, is not economically feasible, that there shouldn't be a rule. It's the "who cares?" attitude that really risks making pharmacological experimentation universal, because the legal risks and hassles are such that most healthy players who might otherwise consider it probably just need any good reason not to go there.
As for prescription use, I'd agree that unless there's strong evidence that it tips the scales for healthy players to use prescription drugs to enhance performance, allowing use under a doctor's care is probably fine.
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On April 07 2011 05:37 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
the idea of people using drugs for video games make me LOL hard
When you're doing it for money, and to increase your chances, if you will, to win money, it's not quite so funny. If we don't compare e-Sports to "normal" sports, even in performance-enhancing drugs, then we're just crippling the development in e-Sports.
As such, of course performance-enhancing drugs shouldn't be allowed. Not only is this not setting a good example for players who want to become better at the game, but we have to consider that there are people who are addicted to these drugs, and seeing their favorite SC player taking drugs to win games isn't going to help.
Although it wouldn't be easy to enforce, I think it could be dealt with easily enough. For those of us who remember the match-fixing scandal not too long ago, I think this could be dealt with in a similar fashion; remove their credit for winning any tournaments won under the influence, force them to pay their winnings back, and temp-ban them from future competitions for a month or two. This isn't something to be taken lightly, I think this could have adverse effects and should be dealt with accordingly.
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what if you truly have ADHD?
are you still allowed to take your meds during competitions/LANs?
cuz for me it just calms me down and thats usually it
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On April 07 2011 05:00 dogmeatstew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 02:46 flodeskum wrote:
I'd love for you to give me a source on the parts in bold.
It's well known that ADHD was (and probably still is) overdiagnosed in the US. Made possible by their unique health care system and their powerful drug industry. This doesn't affect the validity of the disorder in the slightest.
I'm just going to casually point out that you have yet to cite anything in any of your posts and claiming to have a PhD in the subject on the Internet doesn't get you real far. Hell I think I'll go ask Dr Tran, he's a real doctor you know. Anyways, as we seem to be throwing majors around here, I'm a Software Engineer which I guess makes me more qualified to post on the internet that the lot of you... or you know something like that... On topic,
I don't mind that at all. I can provide citations for everything I've said in this thread. I only asked for citations because I'm genuinely interested to see if what is claimed is true.
And I don't think anyone should care if I have a phd. I can see why you could think that was a brag or some claim to authority. But if you had bothered to look at the context provided I was explaining why I used the DSM as a reference rather than the ICD. As the DSM is also an important textbook of psychiatric diagnosis and would be more familiar to anyone that has studied psychology.
Furthermore I don't really understand the view that because someone was medically diagnosed with any given disorder that they *deserve* to take their medication to bring them up to speed. We don't give bikes to people who want to run an Olympic marathon because some guy with an MD said that they have a respirator problem and that ridding a bike would help them with these types of activity... That would be absurd. While no one really likes to hear it, some people are genetically inferior to others in certain aspects. If you have ADHD and it's deemed that amphetamines are unacceptable in pro gaming then I guess you're not going to get very far in sc professionally. No one expects the paraplegic to win the 100m dash.
So you would find it unreasonable that an asthmatic athlete would use something like flixotide to treat his asthma? You know, since it contains steroids...
I also think you should note that amphetamine and methylphenidate are not the same thing, although related. And there is a considerable difference between a drug like adderall and a drug like concerta and other ADHD meds like strattera.
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I'd be really hesitant to just write these types of drugs into the 'abuse' category. There are people who may really need them, so wouldn't that prove to be detrimental? Yes, the competition is serious and there's a lot on the line, but with ZERO evidence to support the claim that drugs like Adderall make you a better player, then this ENTIRE discussion is presenting the situation in a subjective societal view on drugs.
Please don't take everything at face value. At this moment, with no objective evidence, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt.
edit: I think it's an obvious point that if a drug gives somebody an advantage, it should be banned from any major tournament use. Just because I'm saying that they should not be banned at the moment does not mean that they should not be inspected or the topic investigated.
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On April 07 2011 05:50 ShamTao wrote:
I'd be really hesitant to just write these types of drugs into the 'abuse' category. There are people who may really need them, so wouldn't that prove to be detrimental? Yes, the competition is serious and there's a lot on the line, but with ZERO evidence to support the claim that drugs like Adderall make you a better player, then this ENTIRE discussion is presenting the situation in a subjective societal view on drugs.
Please don't take everything at face value. At this moment, with no objective evidence, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt.
I've taken adderall every day for the last 16 months and I am 99.99999999% certain you play better with adderall than without it. How much better? Who knows. It might just be .000001% but I can't imagine that you could do worse. Not exactly scientific evidence, but you'll just have to trust me.
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On April 07 2011 05:17 AJMcSpiffy wrote:
I'd want to see an actual comparison between playing ability with and without these drugs,.
This. WTB double-blind placebo trial to see if effects of adderall on cognitive performance translates to game performance.
And I'd hope to god the difference would be non-significant if only to encourage players to stop injesting the stuff.
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On April 07 2011 05:50 ShamTao wrote:
I'd be really hesitant to just write these types of drugs into the 'abuse' category. There are people who may really need them, so wouldn't that prove to be detrimental? Yes, the competition is serious and there's a lot on the line, but with ZERO evidence to support the claim that drugs like Adderall make you a better player, then this ENTIRE discussion is presenting the situation in a subjective societal view on drugs.
Effectiveness is kind of beside the point as well. If people who are playing in tournaments are seeking controlled substances to enhance their performance whether it works or not there's an interest in making clear that it's not tolerated in a tournament setting.
The two reasons not to tolerate it are (1) that it will harm not just one tournament but the entire Starcraft scene if there were a high profile arrest or health problem as a result of drug use outside a doctor's care at a tournament, and (2) that even the perception that controlled substances may enhance performance is enough to start an "arms race" among players who may come to feel they have to use them to keep up, without regard to possible health or legal impacts.
I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but my own argument on this is not about some "drugs are bad" kick -- it's solely a matter of their use in a tournament setting creating an environment where people feel pressured to make decisions against their better judgment or health interests to keep up.
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If you voted no, then how do you deal with the players who are prescribed this medication? If they are allowed to take their prescribed medication they have an edge over players who are not allowed to take it... On the other hand, if you say "Oh, well, it's prescribed, so it's ok" Then anyone who wanted to take it would just go and get a prescription for it.
In the United States it is ridiculously easy to get a prescription for any type of ADHD medication. I wanted some while I was in college, so I went to my doctor, and said I needed it, and BAM I got a prescription.
Now, The people voting "No" because take the drug if it is not prescribed to you is illegal, then... ok fine. But saying that anyone who is currently under the influence of any type of ADHD medication is not allowed to compete is a bit ridiculous.
On April 07 2011 05:57 REM.ca wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 05:17 AJMcSpiffy wrote:
I'd want to see an actual comparison between playing ability with and without these drugs,. This. WTB double-blind placebo trial to see if effects of adderall on cognitive performance translates to game performance. And I'd hope to god the difference would be non-significant if only to encourage players to stop injesting the stuff.
LoL!!! I dunno if you've ever taken any ADHD medication, but when the "double blind placebo trial" you're suggesting takes place, the people in the trial will know for damn sure that they're on the medication, and the people not on it will feel the same as they always do.
While I was in college, I took enough aderal to kill Charlie Sheen during finals weeks. Let me assure you, there's no way to mistake placebo effect for the actual effect.
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On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:
Now, The people voting "No" because take the drug if it is not prescribed to you is illegal, then... ok fine. But saying that anyone who is currently under the influence of any type of ADHD medication is not allowed to compete is a bit ridiculous.
It's not ridiculous, it simply requires disqualifying those who are taking the medication even if under a doctor's care. Whether that's a good idea for a tournament to set such a rule depends on whether they're focused on preventing any performance enhancement or only illegal consumption of the drugs.
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On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 05:57 REM.ca wrote:On April 07 2011 05:17 AJMcSpiffy wrote:
I'd want to see an actual comparison between playing ability with and without these drugs,. This. WTB double-blind placebo trial to see if effects of adderall on cognitive performance translates to game performance. And I'd hope to god the difference would be non-significant if only to encourage players to stop injesting the stuff. LoL!!! I dunno if you've ever taken any ADHD medication, but when the "double blind placebo trial" you're suggesting takes place, the people in the trial will know for damn sure that they're on the medication, and the people not on it will feel the same as they always do. While I was in college, I took enough aderal to kill Charlie Sheen during finals weeks. Let me assure you, there's no way to mistake placebo effect for the actual effect.
Yeah man! Science? Fuck that, this guy has a story.
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On April 07 2011 05:57 Neo.NEt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 05:50 ShamTao wrote:
I'd be really hesitant to just write these types of drugs into the 'abuse' category. There are people who may really need them, so wouldn't that prove to be detrimental? Yes, the competition is serious and there's a lot on the line, but with ZERO evidence to support the claim that drugs like Adderall make you a better player, then this ENTIRE discussion is presenting the situation in a subjective societal view on drugs.
Please don't take everything at face value. At this moment, with no objective evidence, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've taken adderall every day for the last 16 months and I am 99.99999999% certain you play better with adderall than without it. How much better? Who knows. It might just be .000001% but I can't imagine that you could do worse. Not exactly scientific evidence, but you'll just have to trust me.
This is what everyone will feel if they take any drug that much. You play better when you feel comfortable and you take it so often that's how you feel comfortable. People will say the exact same thing about any drug from weed to alcohol to caffeine, they play better because that's how they are comfortable playing, it doesn't mean it objectively makes you a better player. There is no way for you to know with such a crude method such as trying yourself.
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On April 07 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 05:57 Neo.NEt wrote:On April 07 2011 05:50 ShamTao wrote:
I'd be really hesitant to just write these types of drugs into the 'abuse' category. There are people who may really need them, so wouldn't that prove to be detrimental? Yes, the competition is serious and there's a lot on the line, but with ZERO evidence to support the claim that drugs like Adderall make you a better player, then this ENTIRE discussion is presenting the situation in a subjective societal view on drugs.
Please don't take everything at face value. At this moment, with no objective evidence, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've taken adderall every day for the last 16 months and I am 99.99999999% certain you play better with adderall than without it. How much better? Who knows. It might just be .000001% but I can't imagine that you could do worse. Not exactly scientific evidence, but you'll just have to trust me. This is what everyone will feel if they take any drug that much. You play better when you feel comfortable and you take it so often that's how you feel comfortable. People will say the exact same thing about any drug from weed to alcohol to caffeine, they play better because that's how they are comfortable playing, it doesn't mean it objectively makes you a better player. There is no way for you to know with such a crude method such as trying yourself.
I'd argue that you can tell if you're playing better. I know for a fact that if I play in the morning my mouse precision is absolute crap, I get tunnel vision and my left hand spams as fast as my grandma types (that's a lie, she types faster). After a cup of coffee my play significantly improves as I won't be as tired.
Same idea with alcohol, while I can feel more comfortable playing I know that I'm playing shit. It is possible for one person to realize that he plays better while on X, though it's impossible for him to know if it's a placebo effect or not, because as you said it might just be that he's comfortable that way.
I'm not sure what I'm even arguing here, guess I'm playing the devil's advocate and the essay I'm writing is really fucking boring.
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Lmao, who knows if someone had ADD even if they don't have a RX. I take it for ADD and i think it dosent help much or at all because depending on how much and if you are nervous you can be jittery and moving you can have trouble with really quick movements, macro and staying calm under pressure.
Its almost moronic to even talk about it cuz it'll never happen and of all things Adderall isn't one of them. When nerds start taking HGH and using gear then you should prolly take a 2nd look.
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On April 07 2011 06:12 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:
Now, The people voting "No" because take the drug if it is not prescribed to you is illegal, then... ok fine. But saying that anyone who is currently under the influence of any type of ADHD medication is not allowed to compete is a bit ridiculous. It's not ridiculous, it simply requires disqualifying those who are taking the medication even if under a doctor's care. Whether that's a good idea for a tournament to set such a rule depends on whether they're focused on preventing any performance enhancement or only illegal consumption of the drugs.
This. Or to inform competitors that they have to stop taking the drug for the period of time in which they wish to be competing. As I stated in an earlier post, its not like not getting your ADD meds puts you at a health risk, you're not going to die of heart failure, so I don't see why something which gives you an advantage (especially if you actually have sever ADD) should be tolerated.
Athletes using steroids for medical rehabilitation purposes still get DQ'd on drug tests.
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On April 07 2011 06:28 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On April 07 2011 05:57 Neo.NEt wrote:On April 07 2011 05:50 ShamTao wrote:
I'd be really hesitant to just write these types of drugs into the 'abuse' category. There are people who may really need them, so wouldn't that prove to be detrimental? Yes, the competition is serious and there's a lot on the line, but with ZERO evidence to support the claim that drugs like Adderall make you a better player, then this ENTIRE discussion is presenting the situation in a subjective societal view on drugs.
Please don't take everything at face value. At this moment, with no objective evidence, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've taken adderall every day for the last 16 months and I am 99.99999999% certain you play better with adderall than without it. How much better? Who knows. It might just be .000001% but I can't imagine that you could do worse. Not exactly scientific evidence, but you'll just have to trust me. This is what everyone will feel if they take any drug that much. You play better when you feel comfortable and you take it so often that's how you feel comfortable. People will say the exact same thing about any drug from weed to alcohol to caffeine, they play better because that's how they are comfortable playing, it doesn't mean it objectively makes you a better player. There is no way for you to know with such a crude method such as trying yourself. I'd argue that you can tell if you're playing better. I know for a fact that if I play in the morning my mouse precision is absolute crap, I get tunnel vision and my left hand spams as fast as my grandma types (that's a lie, she types faster). After a cup of coffee my play significantly improves as I won't be as tired. Same idea with alcohol, while I can feel more comfortable playing I know that I'm playing shit. It is possible for one person to realize that he plays better while on X, though it's impossible for him to know if it's a placebo effect or not, because as you said it might just be that he's comfortable that way. I'm not sure what I'm even arguing here, guess I'm playing the devil's advocate and the essay I'm writing is really fucking boring.
So basically you are making decisions based on limited knowledge, ok right..
If you play better when ur not tired how bout not playing in the morning. What about at night? Do you play better on Adderall with no sleep and been playing 8-10 hours? There are way more variables and just cuz u try something once dosent mean u know anything about it. Like i said above, this thread should die immediately for how silly a discussion it is.
Caffiene is as much a drug as Adderall but its np right? Wanna test and see if Huk snorted a line of coke before he played? Comon man its SC2..
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if you are asking if adderall should be allowed i say sure, as someone who was on adderall for a while i can say it won't help all that much it will help focus for maybe a game but then it would probably only cause people to focus on much smaller things than the big picture...if someone doesn't need drugs like that to focus then they won't help really at all and if someone does it will give them an even playing field...no problem with it
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On April 07 2011 06:33 ShogunRuaFan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:28 vyyye wrote:On April 07 2011 06:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On April 07 2011 05:57 Neo.NEt wrote:On April 07 2011 05:50 ShamTao wrote:
I'd be really hesitant to just write these types of drugs into the 'abuse' category. There are people who may really need them, so wouldn't that prove to be detrimental? Yes, the competition is serious and there's a lot on the line, but with ZERO evidence to support the claim that drugs like Adderall make you a better player, then this ENTIRE discussion is presenting the situation in a subjective societal view on drugs.
Please don't take everything at face value. At this moment, with no objective evidence, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've taken adderall every day for the last 16 months and I am 99.99999999% certain you play better with adderall than without it. How much better? Who knows. It might just be .000001% but I can't imagine that you could do worse. Not exactly scientific evidence, but you'll just have to trust me. This is what everyone will feel if they take any drug that much. You play better when you feel comfortable and you take it so often that's how you feel comfortable. People will say the exact same thing about any drug from weed to alcohol to caffeine, they play better because that's how they are comfortable playing, it doesn't mean it objectively makes you a better player. There is no way for you to know with such a crude method such as trying yourself. I'd argue that you can tell if you're playing better. I know for a fact that if I play in the morning my mouse precision is absolute crap, I get tunnel vision and my left hand spams as fast as my grandma types (that's a lie, she types faster). After a cup of coffee my play significantly improves as I won't be as tired. Same idea with alcohol, while I can feel more comfortable playing I know that I'm playing shit. It is possible for one person to realize that he plays better while on X, though it's impossible for him to know if it's a placebo effect or not, because as you said it might just be that he's comfortable that way. I'm not sure what I'm even arguing here, guess I'm playing the devil's advocate and the essay I'm writing is really fucking boring. So basically you are making decisions based on limited knowledge, ok right.. If you play better when ur not tired how bout not playing in the morning. What about at night? Do you play better on Adderall with no sleep and been playing 8-10 hours? There are way more variables and just cuz u try something once dosent mean u know anything about it. Like i said above, this thread should die immediately for how silly a discussion it is. Caffiene is as much a drug as Adderall but its np right? Wanna test and see if Huk snorted a line of coke before he played? Comon man its SC2..
What are you on about? I never said anything about what X does when Y factors in, I simply stated that I know for a fact that I play SC2 worse when I'm tired, and I'm tired in the mornings. I'm not tired at night (or late evening) and that's generally when I play, because I'm more awake. How do other variables come into the picture? I gave the variables I used and described what effect I saw based on them.
And how does coke come into the picture? I'm sorry but I'm not quite understanding where you're going with this, though I could gather that you obviously disagreed with me. I can't really speak for adderall as I have never tried it, would like to say that.
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The funny thing is this whole thread started on someones words being twisted (TT1) and on top of it most people are talking about illegal use of drugs.. which is an obvious thing that shouldn't be done but that hasnt stopped anyone in the past from doing similar things in similar situations (be it sports or school or w/e, if you read through the thread)
My point is if people need it they need it to be like a normal person. Telling them they have to make themselves worse to try participating in competitive sc2 is wrong and only gives an advantage to people who just happen to be better without it.
Personally I think most people commenting on this subject a) have no clue what they are talking about b) think that wikipedia is accurate and c) need to chill out on a drug that really has a low effectiveness in what people think it does in normal people.
Get informed before you voice your opinion please.
p.s close this useless thread.
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If psychostimulant medications are allowed...
Whoever takes more stimpacks Adderall wins the GSL! Kas hwaiting!!
Jokes aside though, no. If the player has ADHD, sure, but if psychostimulants aren't allowed in competitive chess, why should they be allowed in competitive SC?
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If you don't have a PHD in medicine you should not be discussing this because you do not know what you're talking about.
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On April 07 2011 06:14 lettle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:On April 07 2011 05:57 REM.ca wrote:On April 07 2011 05:17 AJMcSpiffy wrote:
I'd want to see an actual comparison between playing ability with and without these drugs,. This. WTB double-blind placebo trial to see if effects of adderall on cognitive performance translates to game performance. And I'd hope to god the difference would be non-significant if only to encourage players to stop injesting the stuff. LoL!!! I dunno if you've ever taken any ADHD medication, but when the "double blind placebo trial" you're suggesting takes place, the people in the trial will know for damn sure that they're on the medication, and the people not on it will feel the same as they always do. While I was in college, I took enough aderal to kill Charlie Sheen during finals weeks. Let me assure you, there's no way to mistake placebo effect for the actual effect. Yeah man! Science? Fuck that, this guy has a story.
Double blind trials only work if it's truly a double blind. Have you ever taken any ADHD medication? Let me tell you what happens:
1.) Cotton mouth
2.) Dry eyes because you forget to blink
3.) Dry sinus cavity
4.) WIDE AWAKE
5.) Lose track of time / spend hours doing unimportant things
6.) When you come down, you feel like shit.
Now.. Can a placebo do all of these?
Please don't be a douche anymore on these forums... I know your other 27 posts are all probably extremely high quality and contribute to the community, but this one doesn't.
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On April 07 2011 05:23 Treemonkeys wrote:
This needs to be cleared up. First they are giving very small controlled doses, it's not what you would compare to a typical kid trying to feel high. Second, they use it for extremely long missions where error from fatigue becomes a big risk so they try to balance it out with the drugs. It's used for long term endurance, not at all a quick performance pickup. If you are already alert and well rested or if you are dosing enough to feel a strong high the amphetamine can likely cause errors from hyperactivity.
More isn't necessarily better. Taking 60 mg of amphetamine to get high is always dangerous.
If you really want to get "high" from amphetamines, you smoke/inject them.
If you're in an MLG tournament playing 26 games in a day, you're telling me it's not a huge advantage to take 20 mg of adderall, maybe 10 mg more 6 hours later?
Even low doses of adderall are going to give mental stimulation and increase self esteem/confidence.
Go to any UC in California. All those kids tweak. And they tweak "under a doctor's supervision". All you have to do is go the campus doctor and fail their ADHD test. It's not hard.
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On April 07 2011 06:28 dogmeatstew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:12 Lysenko wrote:On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:
Now, The people voting "No" because take the drug if it is not prescribed to you is illegal, then... ok fine. But saying that anyone who is currently under the influence of any type of ADHD medication is not allowed to compete is a bit ridiculous. It's not ridiculous, it simply requires disqualifying those who are taking the medication even if under a doctor's care. Whether that's a good idea for a tournament to set such a rule depends on whether they're focused on preventing any performance enhancement or only illegal consumption of the drugs. This. Or to inform competitors that they have to stop taking the drug for the period of time in which they wish to be competing. As I stated in an earlier post, its not like not getting your ADD meds puts you at a health risk, you're not going to die of heart failure, so I don't see why something which gives you an advantage (especially if you actually have sever ADD) should be tolerated. Athletes using steroids for medical rehabilitation purposes still get DQ'd on drug tests.
So... You actually believe that someone who is prescribed a medication for a mental disorder should have to choose between competing in a video game, or taking their medication?
Your lack of logical thinking makes this debate impossible. I honestly feel like you're trolling right now.
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On April 07 2011 07:00 Moody wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:28 dogmeatstew wrote:On April 07 2011 06:12 Lysenko wrote:On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:
Now, The people voting "No" because take the drug if it is not prescribed to you is illegal, then... ok fine. But saying that anyone who is currently under the influence of any type of ADHD medication is not allowed to compete is a bit ridiculous. It's not ridiculous, it simply requires disqualifying those who are taking the medication even if under a doctor's care. Whether that's a good idea for a tournament to set such a rule depends on whether they're focused on preventing any performance enhancement or only illegal consumption of the drugs. This. Or to inform competitors that they have to stop taking the drug for the period of time in which they wish to be competing. As I stated in an earlier post, its not like not getting your ADD meds puts you at a health risk, you're not going to die of heart failure, so I don't see why something which gives you an advantage (especially if you actually have sever ADD) should be tolerated. Athletes using steroids for medical rehabilitation purposes still get DQ'd on drug tests. So... You actually believe that someone who is prescribed a medication for a mental disorder should have to choose between competing in a video game, or taking their medication? Your lack of logical thinking makes this debate impossible. I honestly feel like you're trolling right now.
Depends if it's a legitimate diagnosis or not. Do you actually think someone who really suffers from ADHD can become a progamer without daily administration of said "medication".
What about the other 90% of people who are prescribed it to study or possibly kick ass at starcraft 2.
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On April 07 2011 06:54 Moody wrote:
Double blind trials only work if it's truly a double blind. Have you ever taken any ADHD medication? Let me tell you what happens:
...
Now.. Can a placebo do all of these?
Placebo's have done some pretty crazy stuff in past tests so given that the test subjects on both sides of the double blind were both aware of these side effects its very possible that this symptoms could occur from a placebo, your brain is a messed up place.
Still though you're right that double blind trials are very difficult to preform on substances with physically perceivable effects.
On April 07 2011 06:44 sc14s wrote:
My point is if people need it they need it to be like a normal person. Telling them they have to make themselves worse to try participating in competitive sc2 is wrong and only gives an advantage to people who just happen to be better without it.
Well, are they not by this logic worse than a "normal person" at starcraft 2? Is it any more "wrong" to tell the person medically prescribed these drugs that they can't take even when it would give them a better chance to win that it is to tell the players who are good without the drugs that your opposition gets to stim up because he's not good at the game otherwise?
On April 07 2011 07:00 Moody wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:28 dogmeatstew wrote:On April 07 2011 06:12 Lysenko wrote:On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:
Now, The people voting "No" because take the drug if it is not prescribed to you is illegal, then... ok fine. But saying that anyone who is currently under the influence of any type of ADHD medication is not allowed to compete is a bit ridiculous. It's not ridiculous, it simply requires disqualifying those who are taking the medication even if under a doctor's care. Whether that's a good idea for a tournament to set such a rule depends on whether they're focused on preventing any performance enhancement or only illegal consumption of the drugs. This. Or to inform competitors that they have to stop taking the drug for the period of time in which they wish to be competing. As I stated in an earlier post, its not like not getting your ADD meds puts you at a health risk, you're not going to die of heart failure, so I don't see why something which gives you an advantage (especially if you actually have sever ADD) should be tolerated. Athletes using steroids for medical rehabilitation purposes still get DQ'd on drug tests. So... You actually believe that someone who is prescribed a medication for a mental disorder should have to choose between competing in a video game, or taking their medication? Your lack of logical thinking makes this debate impossible. I honestly feel like you're trolling right now.
That's exactly what I'm saying. If for any reason, medical or otherwise, you are mentally incapable of competing at this level without using substances which give you an advantage over your un-medicated state then you are simply genetically unqualified to be a professional gamer.
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On April 07 2011 06:54 Moody wrote:
Double blind trials only work if it's truly a double blind. Have you ever taken any ADHD medication? Let me tell you what happens:
1.) Cotton mouth
2.) Dry eyes because you forget to blink
3.) Dry sinus cavity
4.) WIDE AWAKE
5.) Lose track of time / spend hours doing unimportant things
6.) When you come down, you feel like shit.
Now.. Can a placebo do all of these?
Please don't be a douche anymore on these forums... I know your other 27 posts are all probably extremely high quality and contribute to the community, but this one doesn't.
Thanks for pointing out that double blind trials are double blind only if they're truly truly double blind. Very insightful. Also very insightful in bringing up post counts. Way to move the discussion forward.
My post was a take on the saying 'the plural of anecdote is not data.' People want data before coming to conclusions. You said 'well I have this anecdote, that should be enough.' It's not. Sorry if you see it as me being a douche, you were just the butt of a joke.
As for your questions, no I've never been on ADHD medication. And yes, a placebo can do all of those things. The brain is quite fascinating in that regard.
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I really doubt it would give an advantage. But I also don't think it should be allowed in a perfect world.
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On April 07 2011 07:05 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 07:00 Moody wrote:On April 07 2011 06:28 dogmeatstew wrote:On April 07 2011 06:12 Lysenko wrote:On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:
Now, The people voting "No" because take the drug if it is not prescribed to you is illegal, then... ok fine. But saying that anyone who is currently under the influence of any type of ADHD medication is not allowed to compete is a bit ridiculous. It's not ridiculous, it simply requires disqualifying those who are taking the medication even if under a doctor's care. Whether that's a good idea for a tournament to set such a rule depends on whether they're focused on preventing any performance enhancement or only illegal consumption of the drugs. This. Or to inform competitors that they have to stop taking the drug for the period of time in which they wish to be competing. As I stated in an earlier post, its not like not getting your ADD meds puts you at a health risk, you're not going to die of heart failure, so I don't see why something which gives you an advantage (especially if you actually have sever ADD) should be tolerated. Athletes using steroids for medical rehabilitation purposes still get DQ'd on drug tests. So... You actually believe that someone who is prescribed a medication for a mental disorder should have to choose between competing in a video game, or taking their medication? Your lack of logical thinking makes this debate impossible. I honestly feel like you're trolling right now. Who's to say what a legit diagnosis is? The dr that prescribed it says it's legit. That's enough to make it legal, and that's enough for me. Depends if it's a legitimate diagnosis or not. Do you actually think someone who really suffers from ADHD can become a progamer without daily administration of said "medication". What about the other 90% of people who are prescribed it to study or possibly kick ass at starcraft 2.
Who's to say what a legit diagnosis is? The dr that prescribed it says it's legit. That's enough to make it legal, and that's enough for me.
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The issue that bothers most people isn't that Adderall makes people with add/adhd "normal", but instead makes them much more focused than the average person. This then goes from a disadvantage to an advantage. If it merely leveled the playing field nobody would care, but it instead leads to a legitimate edge.
It's a long, long argument that I don't think can ever be answered completely or truly "fairly", but a line does have to be drawn at some point.
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Uhm people are prescribed adderall for a reason, and i think its a bad policy to not allow people to use their medication. Steroids in sports is different, because athletes are not prescribed steroids, so its useless to compare the two.
Also your opinion in the opening post is very misleading. adderall can help you focus, but unless the players are taking way more than their supposed too (abusing) they aren't gonna go into their own little world. I take adderall and i dont really play any different then i do when i dont take it. In fact i would say i sometimes play worse, because i will focus more on one specific aspect of the game, like micro, and then forget i have to macro. Its probably easier to play starcraft with ADD, because of the number of things your attention needs to constantly shift between.
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stimulant drugs do give an advantage and it was common to find top players popping pills or doing worse drugs before big match days at CPL and other big LANs. (Especially in Texas)
To think that a bunch of high school/college aged kids aren't going to abuse something so easy to get is pretty naive--especially when it can help out significantly on your focus or stamina for a long day of gaming.
on a Counter Strike team of 7 members.. statistics alone are gonna say there is a high probability someone on your team actually HAS a prescription.. they just bring a few extra pills on game day. There is no way to prevent this type of abuse unless you have a contract that covers it for a major gaming tournament or league(something that allows for drug testing for suspicion). The more sly way to enforce this would be less about "cheating and gaining and advantage" and more about "this is a drug free league and players cannot bring down the image of the league by using illegal substances."
I think it'd take a competition the size of GSL/NASL to really find a solution to it. However, having an "open bracket" really makes it even harder--
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On April 07 2011 03:47 holy_war wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 02:52 Affluenza wrote:
What a crap topic...
Who cares? I wouldn't care if MC was coming into a booth with coke up his nose...
I watch SC2 for the matches...and if I happen to play someone on something which supposedly enhances their play...fair play to them...that's dedication. So if I apply your logic to sports (ie. Track and Field), if you compete against a track athlete who takes performance enhancing drugs, fair play to them because that is dedication? o.O If it really becomes a serious issue, I believe there has to be something done about it to ensure level playing field among all competitors.
Tbh I believe track athletes should be able to to take anything they want...I don't believe in this current system that doesn't allow athletes to push their limits and actually reach beyond their limits...
Atleast we'll be able to see who is the best athlete really is as I'm sure everyone will be taking the same stuff...thus level pegging for all...
You might say WTF...but for me I can see innovation and true human potential to achieve things if we just accept that drugs are a way of unlocking and going beyond ones own physical limitations.
Yeah it's radical...
Just to add...sports are ridiculous in this day and age...when ever anyone shows any sign of brilliance they are immediately accused of doing drugs etc...if everyone did drugs we wouldn't have people trying to lower sporting peoples achievements....look at Lance Armstrong the amount of BS hte man has to put up with because people are not happy seeing a human push the limits of what is possible...
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This whole conversation is ridiculous because there's really nothing that can be done about it.
You think MLG is gonna take a piss test from every single player? Yeah right.
And then there are online tourney's like the TSL. Absolutely nothing tournament admins can do about it.
Whine all you want, but there's nothing that can be done.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I don't think psychostimulant medication should be allowed, because, it will allow an unfair advantage as mentioned. If it's allowed, you are basically trying to force those who don't want to take it, to take it otherwise they'll be at a disadvantage
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On April 07 2011 07:21 NotGood- wrote:
Uhm people are prescribed adderall for a reason, and i think its a bad policy to not allow people to use their medication. Steroids in sports is different, because athletes are not prescribed steroids, so its useless to compare the two.
Also your opinion in the opening post is very misleading. adderall can help you focus, but unless the players are taking way more than their supposed too (abusing) they aren't gonna go into their own little world.
Amphetamine will increase focus, self confidence and increase thinking power. What dosage do you take out of curiosity?
I take adderall and i dont really play any different then i do when i dont take it. In fact i would say i sometimes play worse, because i will focus more on one specific aspect of the game, like micro, and then forget i have to macro. Its probably easier to play starcraft with ADD, because of the number of things your attention needs to constantly shift between.
Are you a progamer? Because if you're not this isn't really relevant.
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wtf is this??
i have taken adderall and just about every drug there is in my life and i can safely say that sober is the best mindset you can be in for playing sc2.
allow it. let duimbasses be dumb
Do they ban adderall/nootropics from chess tournaments???
Drugs are bad mkay
they don't make you better at starcraft
this thread should be closed because its misleading and makes people want to go get adderall to get better at starcraft
even the title is misleading calling adderall a "performance enhancing" drug
-1
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very interesting question, sc2 is very exciting already and it seems unfair, but for baseball, it is so boring steroids made it a little better, but for exciting sports like hockey/lacrosse you dont want to have that around, and i see no benefit from it to the integrity of the game
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If it is prescribed to them for medical reasons then of course they should. If they are just taking it to play better, which is STUPID and means they are abusing a drug, then something should be done.
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This topic was discussed on the MLG forums a few years ago About MLG halo pros, and MLG locked all threads on the topic and ignored everything. All the top teams I'm sure are giving drugs to their players, and I honestly doubt anyone will test for it or care because "its gaming" "nerds" "e-sports" "not a real sport" etc.
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On April 06 2011 21:48 above wrote:
The people postingin the topic sound like the people that are enforcing and supporting the "war on drugs", such a waste of time, money, and effort.
Yes this is the field I study and work in. Almost every person here has no idea wtf they are talking about, "tried" it a few times, or read some bogus MD websites on it.
The only reason anyone thinks they are better on this is because you hold benchmarks on irrelevant things like "APM"... Cool, so you're cracked out on adderol and Spam clicking faster... Doesn't mean you're better. You won a few more games on it? Cool, it's a streaky game which you probably would have won anyways...
There are things called dopamine. Serotonin, endorphines and epinephrine... Now what they do is Control your mood, perception, and well, everything.... They are the reason you think you are playing better. You're not. Amphetamines increase physical activity, and sadly, sc2 is not a physical activity, it's a mental one, with multiple dimensions and thought processes involved. No drug will make you better then you can naturally be because everyone has a skill ceiling, and it's not going to make you better then what you can be.
Stop being so conservative, don't speak out of emotion when you don't understand the real hard scientific facts. This thread is pointless, with irrational vs. Rational opinions, and will never be settled because of the way we are all raised and how it's beaten into the heads of society that drugs are bad, but also make you better? Like how cocaine is listed as a performance enhancing drug... Have you ever tried playing a sport on coke? Doesn't work out quite like you imagine.
Sorry, but it is you that doesn't know what he's talking about. Many drugs, amphetamines included, have both psychological or mood effects and "physical" effects. The reality is that when drugs interact on their various biological receptors, no matter where in the body they are physiological effects occur, which can mean many many different things. If the drug crosses the blood-brain barrier, you can get mental effects. Amphetamines affect mental activity -- just consult the scientific and medical literature...or anyone who has used them. They also affect the body physically. Weight loss, jitters.
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I really think it might be a problem when before every MLG someone who is in the open bracket could take medication to stay focused for the entire day, yet other people can't and might (or will) drop out because of it. See what Tyler said in the SotG show: he was just constantly distracted from all sorts of things happening at the event and earlier that he somehow couldn't play his best. What if he had taken some substance that could take that away, suddenly you alter the competition a lot and you encourage all players to do substance-(ab)use.
The easiest solution, I think, is to require a diagnosis for ADHD as only reason you can use adderall, and to otherwise ban it. It is somewhat enforceable, since people are members of teams, and teams have the option to enforce this if necessary. (tournaments can force teams to check, by punishing the team for the misdeeds of a player)
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On April 06 2011 15:22 mnofstl007 wrote:
what about the placebo effect? Has this been discussed at all... I guess I should read the post.
But what about people popping these pills, that now people are providing evidence for saying they would make you worse, but the placebo effect is enough to still make them feel better. Because psychologically the players feel more focused/calm simply because their brain is telling them they should since they just took the drug that does that.
also any1 who is talking about Steroids and the negative side effects needs to do some legitimate research on them. I am just saying, I guarentee you a lot of the things you think about steroids and their "negative effects" are completely false.
I don't use steroids, but I have friends who do. And I know people who have done a lot of research on them. just saying. (I don't feel required to comment any more on the steroids matter besides: do your research. over 90% of the common steroid negative side effects are complete BS manufactured by the media.)
LOL. I don't think anyone here is talking about steroids and Starcraft.
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CNS stimulants are lame. I have pretty severe ADHD.
That said, it's not going to make you better. A player with no nervousness issues will probably focus just as well.
That said, lol@ add people taking double doses for the "concentration." All you're going to do is zombify yourself, as CNS stimulants have a different effect on a brain that -truly- has ADD. Back when I took 60mg strattera (I take non-amphetamine based CNS stimulants) it made me into a miserable zombie. Ritalin and adderall did the same thing as a kid.
Adderall and other CNS stimulants are actually very, very safe, non-addictive, and have very mild side effects. So I don't even see what the problem is with people using it at all.
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It's also worth noting that adderall has a median half-life of 10 hours in adults. You can't test for it unless you have the player take a drug test immediately after each and every match, once per day...
This would be obscenely expensive, woefully inaccurate, and hilariously impractical.
On April 07 2011 07:30 chonkyfire wrote:
Amphetamine will increase focus, self confidence and increase thinking power. What dosage do you take out of curiosity?
lolno. It will increase CONCENTRATION up to a point (the difference between accuracy and precision should be noted here.) It has no influence on self confidence or thinking power. synapse response speed is unaffected, as are feelings of self-worth o_O
It's not an amphetamine like coke or speed (molecularly, it is) because the potency is so low. Senses of euphoria are not present unless you're abusing the crap out of it. And at that point, it's going to be giving you an irregular heart rhythm, involuntary muscle contractions, and potentially severe paranoia.
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On April 06 2011 20:50 Wonderballs wrote:
I'm not a medical expert or a pharmacist, but I believe
Awesome start.
psychoactive drugs are relatively harmless when compared to physiological centered once. My point is: drugs to help concentration are very very common (Ritalin). If the argument that these will cause health problems arises, then I challenge you to figure out why Ritalin and other A.D.D. medication is so widely used to correct concentration disorders.
Well, I am a pharmacist and I thought I should point something you have very wrong. At the very least maybe you'll gain more respect for drugs and their potential effects.
There is no division of psychoactive drugs and physiological drugs. All drugs are physiological in their effects. These effects can be even more interrelated between various organ systems in the body than your body's own internal signaling systems -- the neurotransmitters, cytokines, hormones, nervous systems...
If a drug is psychoactive that means some of its effects is in the brain. It probably has other "physical" effects as well, as most do.
Do not say psychoactive drugs are relatively harmless. That is a dangerous attitude to have and it's irresponsible to spew this nonsense on a forum where someone might believe you. Each drug is different and virtually all drugs have some degree of risk or potential harm. Proper medication use is always a matter of risk vs benefit.
The stimulant drugs in questions have their negative side effects, but the idea is to get more benefit than risk out of them. On the flipside, use without a prescription (in other words, without guidance from a qualified health care professional) can be quite dangerous, and I definitely cannot recommend these stimulants for recreational use, and that's my personal and professional opinion.
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On April 07 2011 07:56 Honeybadger wrote:It's also worth noting that adderall has a median half-life of 10 hours in adults. You can't test for it unless you have the player take a drug test immediately after each and every match, once per day...
This would be obscenely expensive, woefully inaccurate, and hilariously impractical.Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 07:30 chonkyfire wrote:
Amphetamine will increase focus, self confidence and increase thinking power. What dosage do you take out of curiosity? lolno. It will increase CONCENTRATION up to a point (the difference between accuracy and precision should be noted here.) It has no influence on self confidence or thinking power. synapse response speed is unaffected, as are feelings of self-worth o_O It's not an amphetamine like coke or speed (molecularly, it is) because the potency is so low. Senses of euphoria are not present unless you're abusing the crap out of it. And at that point, it's going to be giving you an irregular heart rhythm, involuntary muscle contractions, and potentially severe paranoia.
We seriously need to lock this thread as it's become overrun with people talking about what they don't understand.
"It's not an amphetamine like coke or speed" Um. Adderal IS amphetamine. And ritalin acts pharmacodynamically like it. Coke is NOT an amphetamine.
"It's also worth noting that adderall has a median half-life of 10 hours in adults. You can't test for it unless you have the player take a drug test immediately after each and every match, once per day..." You do not understand half-lives. Look it up, I'm not wasting my time explaining it to you. But drug levels can be detected in trace amounts in the blood. You could test a few days later, easily.
Also no one here is talking about using it for euphoria.
User was warned for this post
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Work smarter, not harder.
Should we also ban things like practicing more than 8 hours a day? That's clearly an advantage for the players who do it. Should all pros have the same diet? The food you eat and how healthy you are plays a big role in concentration and mental/physical stamina.
A player who refuses to take any advantage they can is foolish, not righteous.
Whatever helps you get to the top is fine so long as you're willing to accept the consequences of doing it.
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Until someone posts the results of a scientific study that proves adderall and other drugs actually do enhance performance then this is thread is not going to get anywhere. Drugs like adderall do not have the exact same effect on every person that takes them.
If there is hard scientific evidence that proves a drug enhances your SC2 performance then testing at the pro level could be a topic for discussion. Until then we are only posting opinions based on hearsay or personal experience, things that are very subjective and don't really prove anything.
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Caffeine is also shown to give very similar effects to meds like Ritalin and Adderall, just in short, less potent doses. Are you also saying pro gamers should be banned from drinking coffee?
The whole esports = real sports and should be taking as seriously notion has to die. It'd be absolutely ridiculous if everyone at any major tournament had to take a drug test. It's something that can't and won't be enforecd
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Believe me from someone who has taken adderall for a long time, in like a tournament or something I would only want to take a little if any at all. Your nerves from a big match are already going to be on edge with some extra adderall in you will be spazzing way to much to be productive. I find it much more effective in use at home to mass ladder and be able to sit and play for a long period of time.
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On April 07 2011 08:19 TreDawg wrote:
Work smarter, not harder.
Should we also ban things like practicing more than 8 hours a day? That's clearly an advantage for the players who do it. Should all pros have the same diet? The food you eat and how healthy you are plays a big role in concentration and mental/physical stamina.
A player who refuses to take any advantage they can is foolish, not righteous.
Whatever helps you get to the top is fine so long as you're willing to accept the consequences of doing it.
Huh, you're comparing illegal drugs that give a possible short-term concentration boost with practicing? How are the two even equivalent?
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There's a reason why SC2 is called an esport. It's the celebration of skill and sportsmanship all in the name of fair competition. As the cash prizes skyrocket in the coming months, it will become absolutely crucial to try to curtail any use if at all possible.
I think it really is our role as the community to discourage progamers away from abusing such substances. When someone is found out using those drugs, we play our part in decrying and shaming that player to discourage abuse from anyone else.
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bottom line is thousands of people are prescribed it and it is confidential between them and their Dr. So if a player is caught taking it there is no way anyone has anyway of knowing if they are actually prescribed it or not, without an invasion of privacy.
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On April 07 2011 07:56 Honeybadger wrote:
It's not an amphetamine like coke or speed (molecularly, it is) because the potency is so low. Senses of euphoria are not present unless you're abusing the crap out of it. And at that point, it's going to be giving you an irregular heart rhythm, involuntary muscle contractions, and potentially severe paranoia.
Okay first speed is slang for amphetamine. Second coke and methamphetamine are abused for "rushing". Rushing is and extreme change in mood that is achieved by ROA's other than oral. Methamphetamine also releases a considerable amount more serotonin than regular amphetamine does, resulting in more euphoria.
A normal person taking amphetamines will result in elevated mood, increased focus, increased self esteem, increased motivation and increased cognitive functioning.
Amphetamines aren't going to make your APM rise (possible though), they are going to cause you to make less mistakes and make good decisions. You will remember things that are going on the game easier and the game will just be easier in general as compared to without amphetamine. Also depending on the person, it could help immensely anxiety, or potentially exacerbate, but for most people not likely.
This shit is all scientifically proven. I don't know why people are really arguing about it.
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Legality of various enhancers and damaging effects aside, what's at the core of this question is the competitors and their working enviroment. Any athlete serious about their sport will go to extreme lengths to further their mastery of their chosen sport in their quest to become "The Best". One of the main reasons why doping/performance-enhancing drugs is forbidden in sports, is not purely because those that use it gets a significant advantage (either in practice or actual events, or both) above non-users. The point, instead, lies in the fact that whoever ISN'T using it, puts themselves at a serious disadvantage if they refuse to dope themselves if it is allowed.
The question here should really be "do we want ourselves and our fellow gamers to be forced to dope themselves when playing?", as that's the reality of the situation - if it's legal, there is not a question about doing it or not if one wants to reach the top.
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I bet most if not all progamers that take adderall do so because they have ADD or ADHD and if they did not take it they would be at an unfair disadvantage because they could not concentrate, players with add or adhd need to take adderall just to concentrate properly. Also the way adderall works to my understanding is it helps people with ADD/ ADHD concentrate but for people with out those disorders it doesnt have the same effect and could actually make their gameplay worse, for people with ADD /ADHD it slows them down helps them concentrate and helps their brain not think of a million things at once , for people without it can very well do the opposite and make the restless/ edgy (a psychiatrist told me this before when i asked about taking Adderal to help me during exam time as i sometimes get nervous and cant concentrate). I do understand that depending on brain chemistry it can help you concentrate regardless of having ADD/ADHD but for the most part it is only really benificial for people with these disorders (wich are quite common)
People with these disorders are at a disadvantage without taking it so i dont really see the harm at all.
For specifically adderall i think it would be ridiculous to enforce such rules.
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Voted no though that leaves the problem of enforcing specially when playing online
Dont realy see a reasonable way to enforce this so maybe for now its best to leave it as it is
mentallyafk April 07 2011 07:34. Posts 22
PM Profile Quote #
wtf is this??
i have taken adderall and just about every drug there is in my life and i can safely say that sober is the best mindset you can be in for playing sc2.
allow it. let duimbasses be dumb
Do they ban adderall/nootropics from chess tournaments???
Drugs are bad mkay
they don't make you better at starcraft
Not sure if adderall is banned from chess tournaments but i do know that manny other mental stimuli are (weed amongst other things lol) and i am sure if adderall was giving some advantage it would (or already is) banned also
Chess federation does not like to enforce it btw as far as i know and they only agreed to the international doping rules to get more recognition as serious sport
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Adderal would definitely give an advantage. Should be banned.
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Have any of you taken adderal? Adderal increases focus, do any of you have trouble focusing on the game when your playing? If so, yes it would give you an advantage, but I seriously doubt it would give most people an advantage as it doesnt improve your ability to think "faster" or something like that. When I play a video game I am seriously focused on it already. I doubt its really doing anything for these guys that a cup of coffee wouldn't do just as well.
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On April 07 2011 09:09 statikg wrote:
Have any of you taken adderal? Adderal increases focus, do any of you have trouble focusing on the game when your playing? If so, yes it would give you an advantage, but I seriously doubt it would give most people an advantage as it doesnt improve your ability to think "faster" or something like that. When I play a video game I am seriously focused on it already. I doubt its really doing anything for these guys that a cup of coffee wouldn't do just as well.
Dopamine is directly involved with self esteem, mood, cognitive functioning, sociability and arguably intelligence.
Do you know what adderall does? I'll give you a hint, it involves dopamine.
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OK i will concede that dopamine does increase self esteem, mood etc. but your other claims are pure scientific speculation and based on debated and unproven facts.
Its possible that it might increase your intellectual stamina, but common these guys are professional gamers, they play 8+ hours a day, I don't think they need that much help with stamina.
The point is, it doesn't in any way directly increase your skill at the game, which I think is the only reason it would be unfair (as compared to caffeine which nobody says is unfair).
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On April 07 2011 06:54 Moody wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:14 lettle wrote:On April 07 2011 06:06 Moody wrote:On April 07 2011 05:57 REM.ca wrote:On April 07 2011 05:17 AJMcSpiffy wrote:
I'd want to see an actual comparison between playing ability with and without these drugs,. This. WTB double-blind placebo trial to see if effects of adderall on cognitive performance translates to game performance. And I'd hope to god the difference would be non-significant if only to encourage players to stop injesting the stuff. LoL!!! I dunno if you've ever taken any ADHD medication, but when the "double blind placebo trial" you're suggesting takes place, the people in the trial will know for damn sure that they're on the medication, and the people not on it will feel the same as they always do. While I was in college, I took enough aderal to kill Charlie Sheen during finals weeks. Let me assure you, there's no way to mistake placebo effect for the actual effect. Yeah man! Science? Fuck that, this guy has a story. Double blind trials only work if it's truly a double blind. Have you ever taken any ADHD medication? Let me tell you what happens: 1.) Cotton mouth 2.) Dry eyes because you forget to blink 3.) Dry sinus cavity 4.) WIDE AWAKE 5.) Lose track of time / spend hours doing unimportant things 6.) When you come down, you feel like shit. Now.. Can a placebo do all of these? Please don't be a douche anymore on these forums... I know your other 27 posts are all probably extremely high quality and contribute to the community, but this one doesn't.
They've done double-blind trials with acid and people on placebo thought they had taken acid.
I'm pretty sure you can placebo up some wakefulness if you can placebo an acid trip.
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Stimulants as a means to gain an advantage is definitely out of the question, but since some people require stimulants to function normally and ADHD could potentially be faked enforcing it would be impossible :/
EDIT: and do you really think GSL and MLG are gonna require drug tests lol?
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On April 07 2011 09:26 statikg wrote:
OK i will concede that dopamine does increase self esteem, mood etc. but your other claims are pure scientific speculation and based on debated and unproven facts.
Its possible that it might increase your intellectual stamina, but common these guys are professional gamers, they play 8+ hours a day, I don't think they need that much help with stamina.
The point is, it doesn't in any way directly increase your skill at the game, which I think is the only reason it would be unfair (as compared to caffeine which nobody says is unfair).
It definitely will have an effect on your thinking ability while playing the game though.
There's so many things that need to be done to win at starcraft on the professional level and there is very little room for error.
When it comes to trying to achieve perfection in the game and having complete control, there's no denying amphetamines will give you an edge.
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On April 07 2011 09:53 Gecko wrote:
Stimulants as a means to gain an advantage is definitely out of the question, but since some people require stimulants to function normally and ADHD could potentially be faked enforcing it would be impossible :/
The problem is the doctor's diagnosing ADHD do not do it properly. They will just give you a test and you could easily bomb it and get a prescription.
ADHD is a genuine impairment that is shown through someone's behavior over a long period of time. Everyday functioning is impaired if you have ADHD. Chances are if you are a pro starcraft 2 player with actual ADHD, you didn't become a pro without the aid of amphetamines over last year.
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There are people who have a prescription and actually need drugs like adderoll to function/concentrate properly in the way that other people think is natural. Those people should be allowed to use it, especially considering I'm one of them and take it everyday whether I play sc or not .
Important to note though, research has shown that people who are attracted to fast paced competitive video games are more likely to have ADD, as people with ADD are drawn to things which can hold their attention with a lot of stimulation (i.e. ADD patients want an activity requiring 300apm (starcraft) because it will hold their attention, even though they could still have a harder time focusing than someone without ADD) - So its likely that a significant number of starcraft players actually have ADD, and take adderoll prescribed by a doctor.
Otherwise yes, it's the same thing as steroids, don't think a poll was really necessary.
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On April 07 2011 10:04 GhettoSheep wrote:There are people who have a prescription and actually need drugs like adderoll to function/concentrate properly in the way that other people think is natural. Those people should be allowed to use it, especially considering I'm one of them and take it everyday whether I play sc or not . Important to note though, research has shown that people who are attracted to fast paced competitive video games are more likely to have ADD, as people with ADD are drawn to things which can hold their attention with a lot of stimulation (i.e. ADD patients want an activity requiring 300apm (starcraft) because it will hold their attention, even though they could still have a harder time focusing than someone without ADD) - So its likely that a significant number of starcraft players actually have ADD, and take adderoll prescribed by a doctor. Otherwise yes, it's the same thing as steroids, don't think a poll was really necessary.
Yeah but remember symptoms of true ADHD begin in early childhood.
I know a lot of kids who did fantastic in high school, 3.5 + and suddenly had ADHD once college started. It's a joke. For it to be true ADHD it has to cause significant impairment in social / work functioning.
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Steroids also have legitimate uses and people who legitimately need them. That doesn't make them OK, either.
Definitely against. And if MLG can get sued over not allowing players to be on adderal, who's suing MLB for not allowing players to be on steroids or other muscle-building drugs?
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On April 07 2011 02:29 SeizeTheDay wrote:
Well think about it this way.. in baseball / football / almost any other sport there are cheaters.. there are people who do Steroids I mean we aren't dumb there are people that take some type of drug to help them... Now with this there will be people taking drugs for gaming to make them play better, I can remember in CounterStrike 1.6 the fact was if I smoked a lil weed before I played, I played better I played almost unstoppable that is when CPL said well we are going to "drug" test people before they can play in the CPL. From what I know it was never enforced.. But The fact is we cant stop it.. I am sure someone is already doing it.. just to get an edge up i am sure of it. We cant stop that person... So it really donst matter.
Too true. My bro mkp recommended to me. he was like "ching chong ding dong ling long adderol,"
and i was like "ooooooooh."
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Adderol increases focus but REDUCES creativity in the mind. Imo creativity is much more important than focus.
Adderol basically turns you into a drone. Would you rather be a drone or a blink stalker?
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On April 07 2011 08:50 chonkyfire wrote:Okay first speed is slang for amphetamine. Second coke and methamphetamine are abused for "rushing". Rushing is and extreme change in mood that is achieved by ROA's other than oral. Methamphetamine also releases a considerable amount more serotonin than regular amphetamine does, resulting in more euphoria.
A normal person taking amphetamines will result in elevated mood, increased focus, increased self esteem, increased motivation and increased cognitive functioning.
Amphetamines aren't going to make your APM rise (possible though), they are going to cause you to make less mistakes and make good decisions. You will remember things that are going on the game easier and the game will just be easier in general as compared to without amphetamine. Also depending on the person, it could help immensely anxiety, or potentially exacerbate, but for most people not likely.
This shit is all scientifically proven. I don't know why people are really arguing about it.
I'm not going to sit here and argue chemistry over the internet. It's not my job to convince you I'm right, it's your job to educate yourself, which I suggest you do. And not using wikipedia. Take a chemistry class, a biology class, and then a few more, pass your MCAT's and then get back to me, because -then- we'll be on a level field of understanding this subject. Also it might help if you did your thesis on an ADHD related subject.
This is completely ignoring the fact that even testing for adderall and any other prescription CNS stimulant is unbelievably impractical, expensive, and ridiculous to even attempt.
How are we supposed to test for a drug that has a half-life of 10-12 hours? Test every single player at the end of the day, every day? A drug test that includes adderall in its detection costs about $20. MLG is a relatively short. Over the 3 days, it would have cost MLG THOUSANDS of dollars in drug testing, and been insanely complex. When it's a struggle to keep a stream reliable, what do you think about daily drug testing?
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wat..i think everyone should be allowed to use it. if they make a rule against it then only some people will use it instead of most. Which makes it more unfair because of the people who take the risk of using it.
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Adderall? Yes, if it is prescribed for someone diagnosed with ADHD. No, not without a prescription for them.
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Should they ban caffeine as well? That's a psychostimulant.
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Dont do drugs ...
Paracelsus (1493-1541)
"All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."
For Starcraft 2 you would have to use these things during your training to get used to it. Since NONE of you has a personal doctor to watch for any side effects you would become addicted to the stuff and in the end be plagued by massive side effects. It is like any addiction ... your playing skill would start to suck without it, so you would start to take it during laddering even if you didnt mean to do it at the start and thus the addiction starts.
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On April 07 2011 13:30 Honeybadger wrote:
I'm not going to sit here and argue chemistry over the internet. It's not my job to convince you I'm right, it's your job to educate yourself, which I suggest you do. And not using wikipedia. Take a chemistry class, a biology class, and then a few more, pass your MCAT's and then get back to me, because -then- we'll be on a level field of understanding this subject. Also it might help if you did your thesis on an ADHD related subject.
Are you backing up your complete ignorance on the subject by claiming your an expert?
This is completely ignoring the fact that even testing for adderall and any other prescription CNS stimulant is unbelievably impractical, expensive, and ridiculous to even attempt.
How are we supposed to test for a drug that has a half-life of 10-12 hours? Test every single player at the end of the day, every day? A drug test that includes adderall in its detection costs about $20. MLG is a relatively short. Over the 3 days, it would have cost MLG THOUSANDS of dollars in drug testing, and been insanely complex. When it's a struggle to keep a stream reliable, what do you think about daily drug testing?
What does this have to do with amphetamine improving performance? I could care less if it's legal, I think it should be.
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On April 07 2011 13:30 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:50 chonkyfire wrote:Okay first speed is slang for amphetamine. Second coke and methamphetamine are abused for "rushing". Rushing is and extreme change in mood that is achieved by ROA's other than oral. Methamphetamine also releases a considerable amount more serotonin than regular amphetamine does, resulting in more euphoria.
A normal person taking amphetamines will result in elevated mood, increased focus, increased self esteem, increased motivation and increased cognitive functioning.
Amphetamines aren't going to make your APM rise (possible though), they are going to cause you to make less mistakes and make good decisions. You will remember things that are going on the game easier and the game will just be easier in general as compared to without amphetamine. Also depending on the person, it could help immensely anxiety, or potentially exacerbate, but for most people not likely.
This shit is all scientifically proven. I don't know why people are really arguing about it. I'm not going to sit here and argue chemistry over the internet. It's not my job to convince you I'm right, it's your job to educate yourself, which I suggest you do. And not using wikipedia. Take a chemistry class, a biology class, and then a few more, pass your MCAT's and then get back to me, because -then- we'll be on a level field of understanding this subject. Also it might help if you did your thesis on an ADHD related subject. This is completely ignoring the fact that even testing for adderall and any other prescription CNS stimulant is unbelievably impractical, expensive, and ridiculous to even attempt. How are we supposed to test for a drug that has a half-life of 10-12 hours? Test every single player at the end of the day, every day? A drug test that includes adderall in its detection costs about $20. MLG is a relatively short. Over the 3 days, it would have cost MLG THOUSANDS of dollars in drug testing, and been insanely complex. When it's a struggle to keep a stream reliable, what do you think about daily drug testing?
For someone being all high and mighty about drug knowledge, the fact that you think it would require daily testing to catch amphetamine usage is 100% lol-able. A urine test any time on the 3rd day would easily test positive for a decent percentage of people who used it that day and the two days prior.
NOTE: I don't condone drug testing, but lol at saying that because it has a half-life of 10-12 hours that it can't be detected in a urine sample for several days after usage.
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Unfortunately, most people automatically jump to hitting the DON'T ALLOW button for Adderall on this poll. You seriously have to stop and think about it for more than a couple seconds.
1. Enforcing it is far too ridiculous.
1a. It costs too much money.
1b. It costs too much time.
1c. It's hard to detect.
1d. It creates tons of drama.
1e. Some players have ADD/ADHD.
2. The playing difference and side effects of Adderall are not even comparible to the playing difference and side effects of Steroids. It won't be necessary for players who don't normally take Adderall to have to use it to stay on an "even playing field".
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Hey guys, I am a canadian psychiatry resident. Just thought I'd pop in and give my two cents. Sorry for not reading the 19 pages of previous posts...
While I am in no way a neurobiology expert, I do strongly believe that Adderall and all other psychostimulants should NOT enhance concentration in healthy individuals, unless they suffer from ADHD (I'll spare you the neurobiology details).
However, it will definitely arouse a tired individual, in a similar manner to caffeine. If Non-ADHD gamers use it just to stay more awake, than this is clearly an illegal and bizarre (potentially harmful) way to increase performance, and I am very surprised to hear that is is so widely used !? A healthy lifestyle with good sleep hygiene (or some caffeine?)should be more than enough for any pro-gamer. Also, the stress of competing should bring enough of your own stimulating neurotransmitters that you definitely wouldn't need extra help from a medication.
ADHD gamers will definitely have enhanced concentration with psychostimulants, but they have impaired concentration abilities to begin with, and therefore should take their medications for competitions.
Drug testing for psychostimulants is available and should be able to pick up various amphetamines-like substance for 1-3 days post-use (remember, a half-life of 10-12 hours only means that you have half the concentration of the drug in your blood by that time).
Anyway, I don't think pro-gamers would benefit much from psychostimulants, and therefore I don't think it is worth screening for.
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On April 07 2011 13:59 chonkyfire wrote:
Are you backing up your complete ignorance on the subject by claiming your an expert?
Not an expert, but certainly actually -in- the field you're talking about. Which I'm going to hazard a guess you are not.
What does this have to do with amphetamine improving performance? I could care less if it's legal, I think it should be.
The discussion at hand is whether or not they should be allowed. Anything else is semantics.
I stand by my statement. Go do real research outside of the internet, talk to some psychs about the drugs and the disease, and then PM me in a couple weeks if you want to continue this discussion. Otherwise, just drop it and go argue with someone else, please.
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professional poker has much more money on the line. 80% of professional poker players use performance enhancing drugs. it allows them to stay alert for long sessions and play solid poker for 48 hours straight. its not uncommon for players to use marijuana after bad beats to prevent going on tilt.
if WPT doesn't ban them, why should the GSL?
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On April 07 2011 14:41 Honeybadger wrote:
Not an expert, but certainly actually -in- the field you're talking about. Which I'm going to hazard a guess you are not.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Go back and re-read your posts. They make no sense.
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On April 07 2011 14:31 FuriousCarl wrote:
Hey guys, I am a canadian psychiatry resident. Just thought I'd pop in and give my two cents. Sorry for not reading the 19 pages of previous posts...
While I am in no way a neurobiology expert, I do strongly believe that Adderall and all other psychostimulants should NOT enhance concentration in healthy individuals, unless they suffer from ADHD (I'll spare you the neurobiology details).
However, it will definitely arouse a tired individual, in a similar manner to caffeine. If Non-ADHD gamers use it just to stay more awake, than this is clearly an illegal and bizarre (potentially harmful) way to increase performance, and I am very surprised to hear that is is so widely used !? A healthy lifestyle with good sleep hygiene (or some caffeine?)should be more than enough for any pro-gamer. Also, the stress of competing should bring enough of your own stimulating neurotransmitters that you definitely wouldn't need extra help from a medication.
ADHD gamers will definitely have enhanced concentration with psychostimulants, but they have impaired concentration abilities to begin with, and therefore should take their medications for competitions.
Drug testing for psychostimulants is available and should be able to pick up various amphetamines-like substance for 1-3 days post-use (remember, a half-life of 10-12 hours only means that you have half the concentration of the drug in your blood by that time).
Anyway, I don't think pro-gamers would benefit much from psychostimulants, and therefore I don't think it is worth screening for.
I found it hard to believe that people just slap this designation on certain drugs and then say "BAN THEM!!!!" without actually knowing the full effect of the medication.
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On April 07 2011 14:31 FuriousCarl wrote:
However, it will definitely arouse a tired individual, in a similar manner to caffeine. If Non-ADHD gamers use it just to stay more awake, than this is clearly an illegal and bizarre (potentially harmful) way to increase performance, and I am very surprised to hear that is is so widely used !? A healthy lifestyle with good sleep hygiene (or some caffeine?)should be more than enough for any pro-gamer. Also, the stress of competing should bring enough of your own stimulating neurotransmitters that you definitely wouldn't need extra help from a medication.
20 milligrams to a non tolerant person would be more than enough to get the other effects amphetamines. Amphetamines are the gold standard of stimulants. It's one of the most powerful/efficient stimulants in the world.
Say 20 milligrams boosts a players focus, improves his self esteem, gives him confidence and improves his mental endurance. You don't think a skilled player would benefit from all those? Especially in a tournament setting which can be very stressful. Starcraft 2 is a very mentally demanding game. There are so many things you need to do and such little room for error. What happens when people have builds set to perfect timings. That's not an easy thing to do, but I imagine speed would make it a bit easier at the appropriate dosage.
Again, personally I have zero problem with using psychostimulants, but there's no reason to disclaim it as a performance enhancer. There's such little respect for a such a powerful drug in this thread.
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Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no.
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On April 07 2011 15:47 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 14:31 FuriousCarl wrote:
However, it will definitely arouse a tired individual, in a similar manner to caffeine. If Non-ADHD gamers use it just to stay more awake, than this is clearly an illegal and bizarre (potentially harmful) way to increase performance, and I am very surprised to hear that is is so widely used !? A healthy lifestyle with good sleep hygiene (or some caffeine?)should be more than enough for any pro-gamer. Also, the stress of competing should bring enough of your own stimulating neurotransmitters that you definitely wouldn't need extra help from a medication.
20 milligrams to a non tolerant person would be more than enough to get the other effects amphetamines. Amphetamines are the gold standard of stimulants. It's one of the most powerful/efficient stimulants in the world. Say 20 milligrams boosts a players focus, improves his self esteem, gives him confidence and improves his mental endurance. You don't think a skilled player would benefit from all those? Especially in a tournament setting which can be very stressful. Starcraft 2 is a very mentally demanding game. There are so many things you need to do and such little room for error. What happens when people have builds set to perfect timings. That's not an easy thing to do, but I imagine speed would make it a bit easier at the appropriate dosage. Again, personally I have zero problem with using psychostimulants, but there's no reason to disclaim it as a performance enhancer. There's such little respect for a such a powerful drug in this thread.
as a frequent amphetamine user, i agree with you. speed gives a great edge, (reaction time, remembering etc) i often pull an all nighter when on it. almost never lose ANYTHING because i just play almost perfectly. (could be opponents),
That's not an easy thing to do, but I imagine speed would make it a bit easier at the appropriate dosage.
not a bit easier, allot!
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On April 07 2011 13:53 Rabiator wrote:Dont do drugs ... Paracelsus (1493-1541)"All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous." For Starcraft 2 you would have to use these things during your training to get used to it. Since NONE of you has a personal doctor to watch for any side effects you would become addicted to the stuff and in the end be plagued by massive side effects. It is like any addiction ... your playing skill would start to suck without it, so you would start to take it during laddering even if you didnt mean to do it at the start and thus the addiction starts.
only weak people with no willpower get addicted to performance enhancing drugs
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On April 07 2011 08:50 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 07:56 Honeybadger wrote:
It's not an amphetamine like coke or speed (molecularly, it is) because the potency is so low. Senses of euphoria are not present unless you're abusing the crap out of it. And at that point, it's going to be giving you an irregular heart rhythm, involuntary muscle contractions, and potentially severe paranoia. Okay first speed is slang for amphetamine. Second coke and methamphetamine are abused for "rushing". Rushing is and extreme change in mood that is achieved by ROA's other than oral. Methamphetamine also releases a considerable amount more serotonin than regular amphetamine does, resulting in more euphoria. A normal person taking amphetamines will result in elevated mood, increased focus, increased self esteem, increased motivation and increased cognitive functioning. Amphetamines aren't going to make your APM rise (possible though), they are going to cause you to make less mistakes and make good decisions. You will remember things that are going on the game easier and the game will just be easier in general as compared to without amphetamine. Also depending on the person, it could help immensely anxiety, or potentially exacerbate, but for most people not likely. This shit is all scientifically proven. I don't know why people are really arguing about it.
as a amphetamine user this post is 100% true
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On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no.
Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing.
WTF is wrong with your head?
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Friend has ADD and has a prescription. I take his medicine during finals to help stay focused when studying. Without it I can maybe read for about 2 hours before my eyes start to just run over the lines in my text, I'm not really taking in any more information and I must take a break. On the medication I have read for 6+ hours in a single sitting and have effectively absorbed all information during this time. What happens on the drug is that normally sober, you will read, take some time to digest the concept, then move along to the next topic. On the drug, it feels like you are almost instantaneously reading, digesting, and anticipating the next concept(s). The simplest way to describe it is that once its read, its instantly locked in your brain for good.
The drug isn't going to make you more intelligent, its going to increase your focus. What I mean is you are able to focus so much on the game that you effectively block out invaluable inputs and focus solely on valuable inputs. The inputs will be digested and retained so efficiently that less mental power is spent on processing the information and the freed up mental power can be used for something like decision making and strategic planning.
Do I think this should be allowed? Most likely not due to the fact it does give you a competitive advantage and consistent use may cause dependency. However, it could make for some very interesting games.
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On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head?
Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote.
Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website):- Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?...
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Addy is a really controversial thing at MLG, a ton of halo players use it and the community really wants them to put a stop to it
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this is an ugly thing to think about.
As ugly as the fact, that most sports dudes are diagnosed with asthma and get that medication therefore.
I really hate it that this retarded stuff might infect starcraft and esports now.,
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On April 06 2011 10:40 MaxPro wrote:
big misconception that adderall makes you better. Only thing it would do is help people concentrate the entire game without their mind slipping off the game and think about the crowd etc..
being a former halo pro i know that 85% of the pros take adderall consistently at tourneys and the owners know it. which is why tests will not be enforced at mlg. remember adderall does not make you a better player. if it provides more exciting matches i dont see what the problem is. Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import. if you think you cannot beat someone because they are on adderall. take it yourself or get pwnd bro
:o Sup max didn't expect to see you round here but I remember seeing you in a couple of team in the 09 season? I think it was and to reinforce that point he made it was brought up a lot on the Halo forums about whether something should be done, a player in particular called Strongside takes it a lot last I heard, but it would be very impractical to enforce some form of testing when E sports is this small. Maybe when it becomes huge I would suggest doing tests but for the time being it wouldn't be very feasible.
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On April 06 2011 10:14 Tercotta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No. How about the way it is enforced in every other sport.
You mean the way it's not? People are still on performance enhancing drugs despite efforts to stop it. I voted no, but I don't see how you can enforce it.
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Performance enhancing drugs can only be good for the game popularity-wise in the grand scale of things. No one wants to watch a player get bored after his 20th straight bo3 at MLG and walk transfer his probes through a tank line.
Steroids gave us Roger Clemes, Barry Bonds, Lebron James etc. Can only be good!
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On April 07 2011 15:35 chonkyfire wrote:
You have no idea what you are talking about. Go back and re-read your posts. They make no sense.
Well that's me told. Thanks, I'll be sure to go tell my colleagues and professors that they're all wrong and should just ask the great chonkyfire's wikipedia skills next time they have a question.
Bowing out of this conversation now. This is literally the least intelligent thread I've participated in on TL yet.
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There would be no way to enforce this regulation. There are so many online tournaments plus... would SC players even be willing to do drug tests. NO.
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Should it be banned during tournament play? Yes absolutely.
Should it be banned during practice? That's another issue entirely, and I'd have to say no. This way, players achieve their maximum amount of practice and preparation, bringing the highest skill games. We still get to see them be human on stage. Also I think it would be pretty hard to enforce it in practice without major privacy invasions or regular urine screening (lol).
EDIT: Also, if you've ever taken ritalin/adderall, you'll know that they simply help you concentrate on one specific task and block out other distractions. They don't provide you with the motivation to do something, and they don't directly increase your performance. It's all focus.
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What if someone has these drugs on a prescription? Should they be excluded from competitive play because of it?
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On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?...
"Illegal"
"Downsides"
I laughed. Not only is it perfectly legal, but the "downsides" are purely subjective. Let's make a list:
Caffeine results in crashes.
Hand-warmers can make your hands stuffy and less reactive.
Comfortable clothes can make you more tired.
Personalized equipment has room for cheating via macro keys, etc.
Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs is akin to saying caffeine should be banned because some people steal soda from stores.
What's wrong with your heads?
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I think the best way to counter act this is to force players to smoke weed before the match.
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I'm sure someone has mentioned it by now, but most molecules can be considered performance enhancing. Heck, water improves performance, but is anyone complaining about athletes drinking Gatorade? What about caffeine, a very powerful psychostimulant?
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Stim allows you to attack and move 50% faster, but at what cost? 10 HP per use? IDK...
Seriously though, this sort of behavior should have a very negative stigma attached to it, there should be no acceptance about it explicitly and tacitly.
However, should there be testing and penalties? Not sure on that one since there isn't much info on the matter - links to official articles would be great. Questions then arise who'd regulate and administer this. Of course this problem wouldn't be endemic only to SC2, but all eSports. Is this phenomena currently pervasive or trending so. And has it become so serious that immediate attention is needed. eSports is still somewhat in its infancy and efforts are focused in making this activity mainstream.
No doubt it should be discussed and supporters, sponsors and teams should stress the dangers of using enhancing drugs and perhaps spend significant resources in employing alternatives such as meditation or other forms of mental training (gaging their effectiveness of course).
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I pose a question simply because this conversation is so.... broad.
Lets take random awesome player and call him JimBob.
JimBob has ADHD. His mom and dad took him to the doctor when he was 12 because he could simply not pay attention to anything at all while at school and would constantly disrupt social situations in a very distracting way. After trying for a year with a non medicine approach the doctor convinces JimBob's parents to consider trying an adderall script.
JimBob's grades improve, he is calmer and gains more friends, and he and his parents are happier and thankful.
JimBob is now 14 years old, 8th on the North American ladder with a 84% win ratio, and his adhd is controlled through his doctors and parents choices.
JimBob has never once used his prescription in an illegal way or for malicious reasons. He uses it because it is treating a condition.
If JimBob's team sponsors him to go to MLG is JimBob supposed to beg his parents to take him off of the prescription that the doctor has suggested, that has improved his grades, that has improved his social fulfillment, that has basically solved the problem of ADHD that was the cornerstone of almost every problem he was having?
If we put a rule like this in place that will be his only option.
edit - Made my point more clear.
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On April 08 2011 06:13 vaderseven wrote:
I pose a question simply because this conversation is so.... broad.
Lets take random awesome player and call him JimBob.
JimBob has ADHD. His mom and dad took him to the doctor when he was 12 because he could simply not pay attention to anything at all while at school and would constantly disrupt social situations in a very distracting way. After trying for a year with a non medicine approach the doctor convinces JimBob's parents to consider trying an adderall script.
JimBob's grades improve, he is calmer and gains more friends, and he and his parents are happier and thankful.
JimBob is now 14 years old, 8th on the North American ladder with a 84% win ratio, and his adhd is controlled through his doctors and parents choices.
JimBob has never once used his prescription in an illegal way or for malicious reasons. He uses it because it is treating a condition.
Is JimBob supposed to beg his parents to take him off of the prescription that the doctor has suggested, that has improved his grades, that has improved his social fulfillment, that has basically solved the problem of ADHD that was the cornerstone of almost every problem he was having?
That one is fairly simple. JimBob has a prescription and sanctioned by his Doctor to take X mg of drug Y, Z times a day. If it's legit then you got a doctors note. Same situation happen in the Olympics and major sports - they have policies to manage it. There are banned and restricted substances.
Edit: Question is, should such monitoring be done for eSports? My opinion, not right now.
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If what you say is true Fwiffo, then it is already like this. Any use besudes a doctors sanctioned X mg of drug Y, Z times a day is illegal.
I am sure that MLG will not sanction the use of illegal drugs.
Testing and all that aside, this seems more of a question of do we want to ban this substance regardless of legal or non legal use.
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We could just even the playing field and enforce a rule that everyone has to drink 2 4Loko's at the start of every series. That way the playing field is balanced.
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On April 08 2011 06:22 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:13 vaderseven wrote:
I pose a question simply because this conversation is so.... broad.
Lets take random awesome player and call him JimBob.
JimBob has ADHD. His mom and dad took him to the doctor when he was 12 because he could simply not pay attention to anything at all while at school and would constantly disrupt social situations in a very distracting way. After trying for a year with a non medicine approach the doctor convinces JimBob's parents to consider trying an adderall script.
JimBob's grades improve, he is calmer and gains more friends, and he and his parents are happier and thankful.
JimBob is now 14 years old, 8th on the North American ladder with a 84% win ratio, and his adhd is controlled through his doctors and parents choices.
JimBob has never once used his prescription in an illegal way or for malicious reasons. He uses it because it is treating a condition.
Is JimBob supposed to beg his parents to take him off of the prescription that the doctor has suggested, that has improved his grades, that has improved his social fulfillment, that has basically solved the problem of ADHD that was the cornerstone of almost every problem he was having? That one is fairly simple. JimBob has a prescription and sanctioned by his Doctor to take X mg of drug Y, Z times a day. If it's legit then you got a doctors note. Same situation happen in the Olympics and major sports - they have policies to manage it. There are banned and restricted substances. Edit: Question is, should such monitoring be done for eSports? My opinion, not right now.
Except that it's a fucking JOKE (in the USA) to get a legitimate prescription for these things. We're basically slaves to our corporate overlords and one of those overlords happens to be the pharmaceutical industry. Why would anyone waste time monitoring this shit when 9 times out of 10 the dude you end up catching pulls a prescription from some asshole doctor who gets plane tickets and hotel rooms in the bahamas from Shire pharma. every year?
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On April 08 2011 05:48 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?... "Illegal" "Downsides" I laughed. Not only is it perfectly legal, but the "downsides" are purely subjective. Let's make a list: Caffeine results in crashes. Hand-warmers can make your hands stuffy and less reactive. Comfortable clothes can make you more tired. Personalized equipment has room for cheating via macro keys, etc. Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs is akin to saying caffeine should be banned because some people steal soda from stores. What's wrong with your heads?
I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with you actually but way to be an ass.
On April 07 2011 12:11 shwick wrote:
Adderol increases focus but REDUCES creativity in the mind. Imo creativity is much more important than focus.
Adderol basically turns you into a drone. Would you rather be a drone or a blink stalker?
Reduced creativity and strategic thinking from Adderall is unproven according to the following paper...
+ Show Spoiler +When we enhance cognition with Adderall, do we sacrifice creativity? A preliminary study.
Farah MJ, Haimm C, Sankoorikal G, Smith ME, Chatterjee A.
Center for Cognitive Neuroscience, University of Pennsylvania, 3720 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA. mfarah@psych.upenn.edu
Erratum in:
* Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2009 Apr;203(3):651. Smith, M Elizabeth [added].
Abstract
RATIONALE: Adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) is used by healthy normal individuals to enhance attention. Research with healthy normal participants and those with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder indicate a possible inverse relationship between attentional function and creativity. This raises the possibility that Adderall could decrease creativity in people using it for cognitive enhancement.
OBJECTIVE: This study was designed to find out whether Adderall impairs creativity in healthy young adults.
MATERIAL AND METHODS: In a double-blind placebo-controlled study, the effects of Adderall on the performance of 16 healthy young adults were measured on four tests of creativity from the psychological literature: two tasks requiring divergent thought and two requiring convergent thought.
RESULTS: Adderall affected performance on the convergent tasks only, in one case enhancing it, particularly for lower-performing individuals, and in the other case enhancing it for the lower-performing and impairing it for higher-performing individuals.
CONCLUSION: The preliminary evidence is inconsistent with the hypothesis that Adderall has an overall negative effect on creativity. Its effects on divergent creative thought cannot be inferred with confidence from this study because of the ambiguity of null results. Its effects on convergent creative thought appear to be dependent on the baseline creativity of the individual. Those in the higher range of the normal distribution may be unaffected or impaired, whereas those in the lower range of the normal distribution experience enhancement.
This was written 2 years ago but non the of scientific databases my university subscribes to have anything more recent in this regard.
On April 08 2011 06:22 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:13 vaderseven wrote:
I pose a question simply because this conversation is so.... broad.
Lets take random awesome player and call him JimBob.
JimBob has ADHD. His mom and dad took him to the doctor when he was 12 because he could simply not pay attention to anything at all while at school and would constantly disrupt social situations in a very distracting way. After trying for a year with a non medicine approach the doctor convinces JimBob's parents to consider trying an adderall script.
JimBob's grades improve, he is calmer and gains more friends, and he and his parents are happier and thankful.
JimBob is now 14 years old, 8th on the North American ladder with a 84% win ratio, and his adhd is controlled through his doctors and parents choices.
JimBob has never once used his prescription in an illegal way or for malicious reasons. He uses it because it is treating a condition.
Is JimBob supposed to beg his parents to take him off of the prescription that the doctor has suggested, that has improved his grades, that has improved his social fulfillment, that has basically solved the problem of ADHD that was the cornerstone of almost every problem he was having? That one is fairly simple. JimBob has a prescription and sanctioned by his Doctor to take X mg of drug Y, Z times a day. If it's legit then you got a doctors note. Same situation happen in the Olympics and major sports - they have policies to manage it. There are banned and restricted substances. Edit: Question is, should such monitoring be done for eSports? My opinion, not right now.
As I've stated before, I disagree. While JimBob has a legitimate prescription for the medication and I have no issue with him consuming it for medical purposes, if JimBob requires a substance which is banned at an event in order to compete at that event the regardless of why he is taking the drug JimBob is not qualified to compete. People on steroids because they're recovering from an illness (I think this happens with cancer?) still can't attend the olympics, there's no good reason to make exceptions just because your doctor gave you a note.
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On April 08 2011 06:54 dogmeatstew wrote:
As I've stated before, I disagree. While JimBob has a legitimate prescription for the medication and I have no issue with him consuming it for medical purposes, if JimBob requires a substance which is banned at an event in order to compete at that event the regardless of why he is taking the drug JimBob is not qualified to compete. People on steroids because they're recovering from an illness (I think this happens with cancer?) still can't attend the olympics, there's no good reason to make exceptions just because your doctor gave you a note.
So every underage gamer that is on ADHD medicine should be bared from events?
edit - Let me clear, I ask to make the point that this is beyond the competitors choice in many circumstances, be it for legal reasons (your parents are your legal consent in the USA) or medical reasons (JimBob might see a reason that even though he is one of the best players ever he can not risk his future by stopping a medicine that has helped him out so much).
You talk about steroids for cancer recovery and that is a short term medical state related to a conidtion that in general will make you not able to compete in the first place.
This discussion is focused on a medicine that people who are perfectly able to compete will be on for completely legit (as far as the law is concerned and that is all that matters) long term reasons.
Adderall is impossible to compare to steroids in terms of its use in legit medicine.
All questions aside I doubt we will see e-sports outlawing anything beyond the normal scope of law for a very, very long time. Many reason lead me to think this and they have been brought up already. In the meantime, please consider that it is perfectly legal and expected for a person with ADD to be medicated for ADD. Be it right or wrong thats what a doctor may conclude. I encourage everyone to approach the issue with an open mind until such a time as a rule or law changes due to evidence of it being a true problem with way esports work. Until then, you will come off as high and mighty to those that are using said prescriptions for a legit reason.
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On April 08 2011 05:13 Honeybadger wrote:
Well that's me told. Thanks, I'll be sure to go tell my colleagues and professors that they're all wrong and should just ask the great chonkyfire's wikipedia skills next time they have a question.
Bowing out of this conversation now. This is literally the least intelligent thread I've participated in on TL yet.
instead of admitting your wrong you continue to do that? Maybe your intelligence level isn't as high as you think it is? Aren't you the guy who claimed the ladder was failing when you couldn't get out of gold?
Maybe if you backed up your amphetamine isn't an amphetamine like cocaine/meth claim we could of avoided all this.
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On April 08 2011 06:54 dogmeatstew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 05:48 Zeke50100 wrote:On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?... "Illegal" "Downsides" I laughed. Not only is it perfectly legal, but the "downsides" are purely subjective. Let's make a list: Caffeine results in crashes. Hand-warmers can make your hands stuffy and less reactive. Comfortable clothes can make you more tired. Personalized equipment has room for cheating via macro keys, etc. Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs is akin to saying caffeine should be banned because some people steal soda from stores. What's wrong with your heads? I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with you actually but way to be an ass.
My post was entirely a reply to PJA (I was too lazy to edit out the rest of the quote). Well, I lied; the last line was there to continue the "What's wrong" chain. So almost entirely.
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On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?...
[ ] Relevant to what I said.
@"Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs":
And what about the people who are taking it illegally, the group I am actually talking about? Why the hell would you assume I am calling legal users of adderall illegal users? Your logic is astonishingly retarded.
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I take a high release prescription of psycho-stimulants every day for medical reasons. I do perform incomparably better while on it. Regardless of effect, it should hands down be allowed. If I was made to chose between playing starcraft and taking my medication, I would be outraged.
This thread is completely ludicrous, some of us actually need these drugs on a daily basis. I can't believe there's a thread on it. And I can't believe the majority of people say no.
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While not to the same degree obviously, other, legal drugs stimulate dopamine in the brain as well. Should we ban caffeine because that also gives a player an edge? Someone who takes caffeine before playing will have a notable advantage concentration wise over someone who doesn't (unless they are someone who responds abnormally).
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This would be a terrible rule.
1. It's almost impossible to enforce.
2. What about things like caffine? Is it banned?
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why the hell is this thread still alive?
As has been stated before not only is it a hard thing to enforce its also got questionable uses in the first place so this is all moot...
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On April 08 2011 07:22 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?... [ ] Relevant to what I said. @"Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs": And what about the people who are taking it illegally, the group I am actually talking about? Why the hell would you assume I am calling legal users of adderall illegal users? Your logic is astonishingly retarded.
Because that's identical to saying "Caffeine should be banned because people steal soda". Your logic never existed.
Abusing a prescription isn't illegal, by the way.
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Ok first of all half the kids of our generation are considered "ADD" or "ADHD" clinically and are prescribed Adderall. I don't think this puts them any higher morally than people using it illegally. Thats like saying people with cannabis cards in California need them to "medicate" when in reality everyone I know with a legal prescription to Marijuana is a complete pothead and obtained it for minor back pain, anxiety, or insomnia. Also, it isn't really comparable to Caffeine because the two drugs, while being Psycho stimulants, are on completely different levels. Sports athletes are allowed to use many different performance enhancing supplements but you can't compare them to Anabolic Steroids. By comparison I feel like Adderall is indeed the anabolic steroid for e-sports.
Enforcing it isn't really an option at this point because e-sports just isn't big enough. Imagine the cost involved with piss testing EVERY competitor in every major tournament, the organizations simply aren't big enough and there isn't enough money on the line to warrant testing.
I just don't see a feasible way to stop it.......
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EDIT: Obviously my opinion is that people who have prescriptions should be tolerated, but people who don't shouldn't. Also, it's impractical to test so whatever.
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On April 08 2011 09:43 PainUser wrote: ...Enforcing it isn't really an option at this point because e-sports just isn't big enough. Imagine the cost involved with piss testing EVERY competitor in every major tournament, the organizations simply aren't big enough and there isn't enough money on the line to warrant testing.
This along with the medical needs people have been talking about is enough reason to shelve the idea of a perma ban on performance enhancing drugs (PED's?) IMO.
If the GSL and what not feel it is a serious issue, I think the best they may be able to do is release PED guidelines stating their tournaments position on the use of these substances. Guidelines, although not enforced, could state that they condone legitimate medical use of certain drugs but do not approve of illegal or non-medical use of these substances.
It gives them a framework upon which to build should they wish to push the issue. You could add caveats like 'if a player is conclusively caught in contravention of these rules they face penalty' or something like that.
Similarly, a lot of contracts have general clauses about one party annuling their contracts if they break local law (I'm thinking employment contracts, internet plans and so on...). Again if a tourney wanted to push the issue they could use these sorts of clauses to reprimand people, meaning they don't have to test everyone, they could just penalise players if they were caught.
FWIW I think the sport is still too much in it's infancy to go down such a murky and legalistic path, the issue is a concern, but perhaps one that is worth revisiting down the line some what.
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On April 08 2011 09:43 PainUser wrote:
Ok first of all half the kids of our generation are considered "ADD" or "ADHD" clinically and are prescribed Adderall. I don't think this puts them any higher morally than people using it illegally. Thats like saying people with cannabis cards in California need them to "medicate" when in reality everyone I know with a legal prescription to Marijuana is a complete pothead and obtained it for minor back pain, anxiety, or insomnia.
Your signature is really fitting, considering the contents of your post. It's hard to argue that ADD/ADHD isn't overdiagnosed, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who legitimately suffer from it. It's the same as the medical marijuana thing; there are people out there who went to some skeevy doctor who's no more than a small-time dealer with a degree, and there are people who legitimately benefit from the drug.
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On April 08 2011 07:22 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?... [ ] Relevant to what I said.
Mind explaining the difference between allowing illicit and licit substances, where both are "performance-enhancing"?
Besides, what substance are you talking about? What are the "obvious downsides"? Any significant long-term effects? Because otherwise, everything has downsides.
@"Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs":
And what about the people who are taking it illegally, the group I am actually talking about? Why the hell would you assume I am calling legal users of adderall illegal users? Your logic is astonishingly retarded.
And your posts are astonishingly offensive.
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Players who have ADD diagnosed by a qualified clinician should definitely be allowed to continue using it. Players who have no medical indication shouldn''t. It's that simple.
Not only because it might create an unfair advantage, but also because using Amphetamine derivates can be VERY bad for health if used improperly. Side effects of amphetamine use can be severe and life threatening, which is why their use is not for everyone.
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While Amphetamines like Adderall will probably improve your reaction time and speed they have been found to impair decision making in some people's cases. For a game like SC where you are literally forced to make split second decisions all game long, being jacked up on addy may slow you down rather than speed you up.
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Amphetamines are long-known for their effects and I think every self-respecting person that plays any game competetively and doesn't need (as in "Your doctor prescribed these to you because you have huge issues staying focused on anything in your life at all") Amphetamines shouldn't effin take them.
Of course with purely online tournaments you have no way to check anything, so it's useless debating about that unless some online tournament goes crazy and requires players to send in urine samples. And even that still leaves huge gaps for abuse. It's sad enough that we're discussing this topic.
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What if you have a legitimate prescription?
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This was very under wraps and used in MLG's halo tournament for quite a while, probably still is.
Though it can increase concentration/focus, it is very unreliable. I doubt anyone using the drug could get consistent results with it.
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Perfomance enhancing drugs are used everywherere in our society, from students for school tests to workaholics to artists. Enforced prohibition is a) hypocritic and b) not practical for esports as there aren't even enough resources to enforce something.
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On April 08 2011 08:30 Zaqwert wrote:
This would be a terrible rule.
1. It's almost impossible to enforce.
2. What about things like caffine? Is it banned?
I kinda agree with this. When I want to play an intense gaming session i usually like to suck down a coffee or red bull since it seems to help. Should I not be allowed to do this?
What if I wanna blow a line of coke to get amped for a game? That gonna be banned too?
Also take it from someone who works in a hospital department that conducts drug tests; you can test for amphetamines and adderall will appear as an amphetamine.
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The only people who should be taking these drugs (Adderall, ritalin, etc) are the people who have ADD and ADHD because they actually need it and it doesn't really give them an advantage.
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On April 10 2011 00:48 delHospital wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 07:22 PJA wrote:On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?... [ ] Relevant to what I said. Mind explaining the difference between allowing illicit and licit substances, where both are "performance-enhancing"? Besides, what substance are you talking about? What are the "obvious downsides"? Any significant long-term effects? Because otherwise, everything has downsides. Show nested quote +@"Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs":
And what about the people who are taking it illegally, the group I am actually talking about? Why the hell would you assume I am calling legal users of adderall illegal users? Your logic is astonishingly retarded. And your posts are astonishingly offensive.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illicit
For example: Taking prescription drugs without a prescription.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/licit
For example: Wearing comfortable clothing.
Obvious downsides: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine#Effects
Not obvious downsides: Being comfortable
EDIT: In response, more directly, to the difference between allowing caffeine versus non-prescribed amphetamines, it's partially a matter of fairness. Assuming that caffeine and non-prescribed amphetamines do actually increase your ability to play well, anyone can take caffeine without a problem. Taking non-prescribed amphetamines is illegal and carries much higher consequences due to that fact alone. Most people don't want to have to break the law just to keep up with someone else who has no qualms about breaking the law.
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I would like to just state that I've been taking medication for ADHD since I was in Kindergarten and am still taking to this point in time(Freshman in College). I am currently on 90mg of Concerta, and would just like to say from my own experiences, that doing certain things that require complex thinking such as mathematics are incredibly hard for me without medication and ironically Starcraft seems no different. It is very hard for me to play SC2 and concentrate as well as I could without my medication. This is probably not the case with most SC players, but it is my case. I would assume that there are people in the SC2 community in my position that would like to compete competitively and I think that this would hurt their chances. I know it would hurt mine. Am I just shooting blanks here, does no one else feel this way?
I wish there was an option for legitimate use on the poll. Kind of disappointed with that, it feels like there isn't very much support for gamers with ADHD in this thread.
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any form of ban on a medication that persists in the blood would be easy to enforce. Anabolic steroids are easy to obtain precisely because they have valid medical uses, albeit these uses are not the same as adderall. If you play professional sports and had to take a steroid cream for any reason, such as a doctor's prescription for a wasting condition or if a male has had complications during puberty, then there are formal reviews that prevent you from being banned/mistreated etc. It would be the same for adderall and other pyschoactive stimulants. By all means, abuse the legal drugs and get the maximum output for your body (weightlifters take creatine, protein supplements - gamers take caffeine and taurine etc.) but as soon as we venture into the misuse of drugs (i.e. taking adderall when you don't have an attention deficit disorder) then I believe the relevant governing body should stamp down HARD. Zero tolerance for people misusing drugs to gain a competitive advantage.
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On April 10 2011 02:55 Mcpunknstein wrote:
I would like to just state that I've been taking medication for ADHD since I was in Kindergarten and am still taking to this point in time(Freshman in College). I am currently on 90mg of Concerta, and would just like to say from my own experiences, that doing certain things that require complex thinking such as mathematics are incredibly hard for me without medication and ironically Starcraft seems no different. It is very hard for me to play SC2 and concentrate as well as I could without my medication. This is probably not the case with most SC players, but it is my case. I would assume that there are people in the SC2 community in my position that would like to compete competitively and I think that this would hurt their chances. I know it would hurt mine. Am I just shooting blanks here, does no one else feel this way?
I wish there was an option for legitimate use on the poll. Kind of disappointed with that, it feels like there isn't very much support for gamers with ADHD in this thread.
This is true, but I think the debate in the thread deals more with people who don't have ADHD taking Adderall, and since this became an issue in other esports communities/games we're just talking about whether or not we should allow it. Obviously if you have an actual medical issue they're not going to stop you from taking your medication.
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I'd say no, because its like the same if a top cycler is steroids or such - just gives the abuser a too major advantadge.
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On April 10 2011 02:55 Mcpunknstein wrote:
I would like to just state that I've been taking medication for ADHD since I was in Kindergarten and am still taking to this point in time(Freshman in College). I am currently on 90mg of Concerta, and would just like to say from my own experiences, that doing certain things that require complex thinking such as mathematics are incredibly hard for me without medication and ironically Starcraft seems no different. It is very hard for me to play SC2 and concentrate as well as I could without my medication. This is probably not the case with most SC players, but it is my case. I would assume that there are people in the SC2 community in my position that would like to compete competitively and I think that this would hurt their chances. I know it would hurt mine. Am I just shooting blanks here, does no one else feel this way?
I wish there was an option for legitimate use on the poll. Kind of disappointed with that, it feels like there isn't very much support for gamers with ADHD in this thread.
I'm in the EXACT same situation, ADHD, 90mg Concerta.
I don't know if this is considered doping, but the difference is that this isn't to enhance a ragular brain, it's just to bring it to the same level of speed thinking a brain not affected by ADHD would have.
I never considered it a dope in the sense that it gives an advantage, cuz it just doesn't. Now if you were to take it + something else (boy that would be asking for DISASTROUS brain damage) that would actually be considered doping.
Playing SC2 with ADHD and no medication is actually a handicap, it's not the "fair" way to play.
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In the recent MLG Dallas recap video they just posted, they zoom into Naniwa as he's gearing up to play Kiwikaki in the finals and man, his pupils were DILATED as shit (in the video, around 43:40 after the Black Ops game). Looking at that, there's no way you can say that he wasn't on something at the time especially with how bright the lights are on that stage.
![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4498/naniwa.jpg)
He still played like a boss all tourney, but still you have to wonder how much of an edge it gave him.
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I don't think it should be allowed (for non-medically irregular players) to take the drugs, but the issue is that there's no way you're going to enforce it, at least not for a very long time from now.
Not only that, but so many tournaments are just small or online (remotely).
Would it be ideal to ban them? yeah, probably. Can it be enforced? no.
This is a rather trivial/ineffectual discussion if you ask me.
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On April 10 2011 17:16 XForce3 wrote:In the recent MLG Dallas recap video they just posted, they zoom into Naniwa as he's gearing up to play Kiwikaki in the finals and man, his pupils were DILATED as shit (in the video, around 43:40 after the Black Ops game). Looking at that, there's no way you can say that he wasn't on something at the time especially with how bright the lights are on that stage. He still played like a boss all tourney, but still you have to wonder how much of an edge it gave him.
Bold part is horse shit. Has he actually admitted to taking something? Or are you just pulling this out of thin air?
I'm not saying it's not in the realms of possibility, but there are other reasons why your pupils will dilate...
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On April 10 2011 17:16 XForce3 wrote:In the recent MLG Dallas recap video they just posted, they zoom into Naniwa as he's gearing up to play Kiwikaki in the finals and man, his pupils were DILATED as shit (in the video, around 43:40 after the Black Ops game). Looking at that, there's no way you can say that he wasn't on something at the time especially with how bright the lights are on that stage. He still played like a boss all tourney, but still you have to wonder how much of an edge it gave him.
lol, wouldn't blame him, he played a TON of games--you would need the stamina of a stallion to be able to get through MLG from the open bracket unscathed. Maybe he took a Caffine pill? Or something to calm his nerves (Morrow said he was always this good but always suffered from being too nervous at events)
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apparently the rumour is that he took some sort of caffeinated chewing gum, but imo thats fine
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Lol you guys are very quick to point the finger.
Natural chemicals released in your brain when competing in a fast paced game with the world watching you (adrenaline, dopamine) would dilate your pupils just like the adrenaline and dopamine released via amphetamines would.
Even though it's possible he was taking some strong stimulant that dilated his pupils, starting rumours like this without knowing the facts and the science of how the brain works (naturally and artificially stimulated) is damaging to a players reputation and we should not be accusing players without proof.
Also as to the "legitimate prescription" argument, there's no way of telling how much someone actually needs amphetamines to even the scales. Even though you have ADHD and are prescribed Adderal, it's possible that the Adderal is giving you higher than average focus and concentration even though at baseline you're below average. Allowing amphetamines if you have a legit prescription also creates the motivation for people to fake ADD symptoms to get a prescription. The problem is we will never truly know who needs amphetamines and who doesn't, which is why they should be tested for and disallowed completely.
Some people are born with brains better suited to success in RTS games, some people aren't. Many people will never become pro because of genetics or whatever, that's how it's always been.
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I believe Adderall is a variant of amphetamine, or you can make amphetamine from Adderall. Theres a Black Box Warning regarding potential amphetamine abuse from the product I believe.
Adderall is really meant for people with ADHD, and meant to be taken in low doses. Long term use of Adderall in medium to high doses is not good, and should only be done if recommended by your doctor.
It has been very helpful for those with ADHD. However, there is a warning that if you have a family history of hear attack, that Adderall could cause it since Adderall has a strong effect on increasing blood pressure. So randomly taking Adderall because somebody said so could be dangerous. You need to talk to your doctor to better understand and know if Adderall is right for you and your body.
Also things I found on the internet.
- prong-longed use has the possibility of increasing aggression in youth? but I think thats low chance.
- High potential for dependency/ addiction with prolonged use, especially if taken incorrectly.
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while it's not conclusive evidence, naniwa looks looped as fuck in that photo. anyone that's ever gone to after-hours clubs or raves more than once can easily tell if someone's on any amphetamine family drug from that signature gaze. when that carefoot guy went to gsl qualifiers s2 or s3, he had the same kind of gigantic pupils in one of artosis' interview videos. and he admitted to being on concerta in reddit comments when people were writing he looks like he's on E.
this kind of stuff is more readily available than you'd think. if you're in canada you can buy a bottle of ephedrine for $4 at GNC that has 50 8mg tablets.
all of these drugs unquestionably give an unfair advantage, as you can assume from the data available on stimulants, or from your own experiences you might have doing any activity on them (they give that shit to fighter pilots, ffs). i'm at a loss how it can be enforced aside from piss tests though. i guess everyone being aware of the potential problem is the first step.
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On April 11 2011 18:11 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 17:16 XForce3 wrote:In the recent MLG Dallas recap video they just posted, they zoom into Naniwa as he's gearing up to play Kiwikaki in the finals and man, his pupils were DILATED as shit (in the video, around 43:40 after the Black Ops game). Looking at that, there's no way you can say that he wasn't on something at the time especially with how bright the lights are on that stage. He still played like a boss all tourney, but still you have to wonder how much of an edge it gave him. Bold part is horse shit. Has he actually admitted to taking something? Or are you just pulling this out of thin air? I'm not saying it's not in the realms of possibility, but there are other reasons why your pupils will dilate...
I think mandatory drug tests would hurt e-sports at this stage...
Also, I think if Naniwa won without a maphack, he won without cheating. I don't care if he had Razer's new Talon http://www.razerzone.com/talon with blood stream injected APM enhancers. This whole thread is utterly bullshit.
Might as well ban hotkeys if you can't use caffeine to play SC2... gives players an edge if other can only use mouse... should also ban wide-screen monitors while we are at it. Maybe ban MBS (multi-building selection)... pretty much the same traction to your argument now... (just to make the game harder to work with and artificially increase skill ceiling)
Personally, if anyone ever asked me to piss in a cup for e-sports, they might find themselves holding a cup full of shit 10 minutes later. I'm sure you can test faces just the same as urine 
I'm not an advocate for steroids in track-and-field sports or any other physical sport for that matter. But banning energy drinks/ alert pills/caffeine pills/ attention deficit disorder helpers or anything that helps a player focus is just absurd. Besides, there has yet to be a pill invented that will increase your IQ. At the end of the day, SC2 is a strategy/IQ based game. If you outsmart your opponent, you will win more often and not against someone less smart. Getting lucky isn't a skill and eventually you'll get beat down anyways. That being said, all you SCBW players out there chanting Macro > Micro will understand this real well. Just b/c you can micro/macro your units faster won't win you games if you don't have the smarts to make the right units/buildings/production.
Any pro can have 200APM easily, and that is already enough to macro perfectly if you use it effectively. Anything in excess is exactly that. This thread is trash.
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On April 06 2011 11:16 Sixto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 11:09 I_am_that_bad wrote:On April 06 2011 10:24 twstdletz wrote:
Of course people are abusing adderall in an environment like this, have you ever been in a college library at test time I'm not at all saying whether I think it is OK or not. I'm saying it is impossible to completely and practically enforce a standard, with the easy availability of abusable level amphetamine prescriptions. There are definately both legitimate and illegitimate users of medical amphetamine at EVERY event. Funny you should mention something like this because I was thinking the same exact thing. I had a college roommate sophomore year who was on perscription adderall due to his ADHD. I never really thought anything of it, until he had a paper due or was studying to take a test. He would, purposefully, double down on his dosage so it would give him a mental boost to concentrate and study longer than, I would consider, possible under normal circumstances. I never said anything, but when I thought about it, it would really bother me to know that, while he does put in hard work and dedication, he also uses drugs to get an advantage. Does anyone put a little asterisk next to his grades to denote that he used drugs to get ahead? Obviously not. So that means we can be compared on the same scale, and that was just not fair. Still bothers me to this day. Does it bother you when people take proteins while working out as well?
Or that people drink coffee to stay awake and study longer than possible under normal circumstances?
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On April 10 2011 17:16 XForce3 wrote:In the recent MLG Dallas recap video they just posted, they zoom into Naniwa as he's gearing up to play Kiwikaki in the finals and man, his pupils were DILATED as shit (in the video, around 43:40 after the Black Ops game). Looking at that, there's no way you can say that he wasn't on something at the time especially with how bright the lights are on that stage. He still played like a boss all tourney, but still you have to wonder how much of an edge it gave him.
On April 11 2011 16:58 Washow wrote:
Oh wow he's high as fuck
Really? I don't even know what to say to this that hasn't been said already. It's astounding that people have no problem pulling an accusation like this out of thin air. Yeah, he totally must have been on something during his matches. I mean look at how crazy he acted during his interview.
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On April 11 2011 19:46 T3tra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 11:16 Sixto wrote:On April 06 2011 11:09 I_am_that_bad wrote:On April 06 2011 10:24 twstdletz wrote:
Of course people are abusing adderall in an environment like this, have you ever been in a college library at test time I'm not at all saying whether I think it is OK or not. I'm saying it is impossible to completely and practically enforce a standard, with the easy availability of abusable level amphetamine prescriptions. There are definately both legitimate and illegitimate users of medical amphetamine at EVERY event. Funny you should mention something like this because I was thinking the same exact thing. I had a college roommate sophomore year who was on perscription adderall due to his ADHD. I never really thought anything of it, until he had a paper due or was studying to take a test. He would, purposefully, double down on his dosage so it would give him a mental boost to concentrate and study longer than, I would consider, possible under normal circumstances. I never said anything, but when I thought about it, it would really bother me to know that, while he does put in hard work and dedication, he also uses drugs to get an advantage. Does anyone put a little asterisk next to his grades to denote that he used drugs to get ahead? Obviously not. So that means we can be compared on the same scale, and that was just not fair. Still bothers me to this day. Does it bother you when people take proteins while working out as well? Or that people drink coffee to stay awake and study longer than possible under normal circumstances?
Not fair? Should put an asterisk beside your name everywhere its printed saying you were born in a privileged country where you aren't surrounded by war and hunger and had the opportunity to go to school in the first place. Come to think of it, those Koreans wouldn't really be that good if they weren't paid to do what they do and spent hours and hours in their pro-houses playing a computer game instead of working to better society. I mean think about it... you go to a LAN tournament, with your x-amount of practice hours... paid for your own ticket... had to work at Starbucks for 5 hours every-other day and then BAM... some Korean rolls in with his fucking CJ Entus jacket and kills you dead b/c he spent all those extra hours training instead of part-timing coffee service.
Should just ban anybody who didn't work part-time to get there. After all, how can you fairly compare yourself on the same scale?
Here's the easier alternative though: you stay at home and post on this forum about how imba it is that other kids get better shit b/c of their unique circumstances. Clearly, nobody makes a legitimate means of success these days. / END GIANT SARCASTIC RANT
Get real.
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I guess it's more or less impossible to control all the players, even if you only concentrate on the big event. But i hope this gets forbidden abe ppl getting caught useing these druges get the same punishement like the people using hacks and cheats !
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quote from a satirical article "Top 10: Things to Do on Amphetamines (Besides Study)"
full article http://www.theblacksheeponline.com/article/572
9. Competitive Video Games: First Person Shooters are so ridiculously easy on Amphs. The advantage you gain from amphetamines in any fast-paced game is ridiculous. Pop an Addy while you're playing Starcraft 2, and in an hour your competitors will just assume you're Korean.
the guy is half joking, but most of you guys downplaying amphetamines seriously have no idea how potent amphetamines are. comparing them to caffeine is laughable.
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On April 11 2011 20:00 dar0za wrote:quote from a satirical article "Top 10: Things to Do on Amphetamines (Besides Study)" full article http://www.theblacksheeponline.com/article/572Show nested quote +9. Competitive Video Games: First Person Shooters are so ridiculously easy on Amphs. The advantage you gain from amphetamines in any fast-paced game is ridiculous. Pop an Addy while you're playing Starcraft 2, and in an hour your competitors will just assume you're Korean. the guy is half joking, but most of you guys downplaying amphetamines seriously have no idea how potent amphetamines are. comparing them to caffeine is laughable.
haha wow, the way he describes amphs, I'm pretty sure what he means by "pop an addy" is to take enough to put you on the brink of hallucinating
Amphetamines don't make you smarter rofl, you could empty half the bottle and read go through a book on quantum physics but you aren't going to understand any of it any better. That guy sounds like someone who has used Amphetamines for the first time in his life, where the high/buzz he gets from Amphetamines is as strong as ever and thinks he has gained some super power when at the end of the day the only thing that has changes for him is how focused he is when staying on task.
That guy definitely sounds like a drug abuser, I bet he is one of those people who chomp down on adderall every few hours to keep the amphetamine high going
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I voted in favor of performance enhancing drugs in SC2...
I personally take this kind of medication during exam periods and I don't see anything opossing their use. It's precisely because I myself use Rilatine (I think that's the equivalent to Adderal in Belgium, or atleast the effect is the same). If used in moderation, it is not unsafe for your health. These drugs are fairly easy to come by (in Belgium they are anyway), so anyone can have acces to them.
Why I voted in favor of these drugs? Because we live in the 21st century and the world of today is all about preformance. As probably all of us, I see SC2 as a real sport. As probably all of us, I want to see above-par apm and sick micro in every match. I want to see sick multitasking. I want to see multiple harassements at once. I want to see the sweat on the players forhead because he is focusing so hard. I'd be willing to allow all players the use of these drugs in order to get more exciting matches.
I feel that alot of sports fans are quite hypocrite about performance enchancing products. All the cycling fans want to see the cyclists go up 4000m high mountains 10 times a day, but all of the fans are against performance enchancing products. All the American football fans want huge clashes between two men that are as big as bears, but these fans are again against these products. We want to see tons of homeruns in Baseball, but are all astonished when the top batter tests postive on steroids... We want F1 races that last 90 rounds, but if it comes out that all the racers take Adderal/Rilatine we'd be disapointed. We want to see the 100 m ran in under 9 seconds, even when alot of scientists have already stated that it's anatomically impossible...
We are demanding ALOT of top sportsmen. In the more physical sports, I am totally against products that enchance your muscles. But for a "thinking" game, i'd let the sportsmen themself decide if they are willing to take those products or not. If the players abuse the drugs, they will be the only ones that bear the consequences in their later health (i'm pretty sure taking Adderal constantly for a prolonged period of time without a necesary reason for doing so will be unhealthy on the long run), we during that time will have had exciting matches.
Also forbidding these kind of drugs is just not possible. Would you decline a super talented ADHD patient the entrance to GSL just because he has a rilatine prescription? That's called discrimination and we all agree that E-sports is so great because it per definition doesn't disciriminate anybody from playing.
Next, taking rilatine does not make you Jeadong in a heartbeat. You may be sharper, you may be more aware, but it will not improve your timings, your build order, tactics or mechanics. A 1v1 between two bronze guys on Adderal will still be a very ugly game. A 1v1 between two high master's on Adderal has a decent chance to turn into a game above master-standards.
Let E-sports be the "newest" generation of sports, let there be a certain tollerance for this kind of drugs. Let us be pioneers! I am nearly convinced that in a generation or two (say 2050), these kind of "mind-drugs" will be distributed to kids as candy. Why not be the first sports to accept these drugs?
First post on TL after alot of reading, sorry for my English .
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If people play better while drugged up I'm all for it, speaking as a player and a viewer. I want to see better matches and I want to play extremely well and put on a good show.
Has there actually been a study into how much better you play when on adderall or ritalin? I'm fairly sure you'd be better, but by how much? I guess such a study wouldn't be easy though.
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On April 11 2011 20:00 dar0za wrote:
the guy is half joking, but most of you guys downplaying amphetamines seriously have no idea how potent amphetamines are. comparing them to caffeine is laughable.
This is only true during the first stages of using them, after awhile you will *need* them just to feel normal and you will need a higher and higher dosage to feel the desired kick. In the long run a healthy player will perform better. On the contrary I doubt you have any idea what they do to your body after long term consistent use.
On April 11 2011 20:15 Dommk wrote:
That guy sounds like someone who has used Amphetamines for the first time in his life, where the high/buzz he gets from Amphetamines is as strong as ever and thinks he has gained some super power when at the end of the day the only thing that has changes for him is how focused he is when staying on task.
Exactly.
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We watch pro sports not just for the performance but for the competition and the human accomplishment. Taking performance enhancing drugs detracts from and devalues both and that it's so common in all sports (including e-sports I guess) is an incredible disappointment. Look at the huge negative effect drug use has had on cycling and baseball.
I'm sorry to be blunt or dismissive but anyone who thinks that using drugs is a good thing for SC or any other sport is simply wrong.
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Yeah this is bad.. People don't need a fuckin ADHD or ADD drug to play better starcraft seriously... I mean come on this is kind of ridiculous... I do have ADHD and I don't use it for anything other than work or school. SC2 is less fun on the medicine I take for it anyways. This is a pathetic excuse... No one should be taking drugs to play video games better unless they truly have ADHD... seriously.. Besides it could hold an unfair advantage to someone who truly has "ADHD" and doesn't take their medicine while they play. I say if you have ADHD you play at competitive level fine take it. If you don't have ADHD then no.
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I came from the competitive CS scene at its hight and played at a very high level online and on lan against teams like Complexity, ZeX, EG etc etc and I will tell you the use of performace enhancing drugs ran rampant in the community especially at the professional level... I admittely have taken them before huge matches and showed a substainily imporvment in my immediate play... obviously when I was younger and stupid.
I don't think any one is claiming they make you intelligent BUT they provide you the ability to focus which is a key factor in consistency in any game.
my 2 cents...
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I find it actually funny that players are taking these drugs for a computer game. None the less, its really bad for themselves and the game.
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On April 19 2011 03:08 strength wrote:
I find it actually funny that players are taking these drugs for a computer game. None the less, its really bad for themselves and the game.
Far more people are taking far worse drugs to stare at the wall in a shit apartment, it's not really surprising.
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On April 19 2011 03:08 strength wrote:
I find it actually funny that players are taking these drugs for a computer game. None the less, its really bad for themselves and the game.
People take stimulants for fun, what makes you think they'd not take them for fun AND a competitive game where it's improving their skill?
That temptation raises a lot more when you're playing for money at a high level and when you care deeply for the game.
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Lets say that I get really really good at starcraft 2. Hypothetical scenario .. I get at top tier level. (Yes its true I have ADHD) was diagnosed when I was in 2nd grade. I am a now a senior in high school.. Anyways.. Lets say I am really really good at starcraft 2.. Now.. I have ADHD.. So is it OK for me to take my medicine if it will enhance my play? Or no...? What if its proven I will play better on medication? Is it still acceptable?
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I've never seen so many ignorant people in one thread...a lot of you are just disregarding this without even thinking about it b/c you think it sounds stupid. If you've never taken adderall, then your opinion on whether or not it makes you better at starcraft doesn't really matter.
I'm at work so I can't do this now, but when I get home I'll open up sc2 gears and look at my apm/win ratios for my games on adderall vs. the games not on adderall (which will be very easy b/c it's worn off by the time I get home from work and all of my games on the weekends are when I'm on it).
I can guarantee my apm is at least 20 or 30 higher and I would bet my win is going to be higher as well for those of you who want to argue that I'm just spamming faster, which I must say would be a good argument.
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Link to the relevant section then.
South Korea: Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import.[citation needed]
Thailand: Amphetamine and dextroamphetamine are classified as Type 1 Narcotics.
Interesting fact on South Korea, can anyone confirm that?
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On April 06 2011 17:04 Ethic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No. "Piss in this cup while we watch, if you don't your out of the league."
His point is that there are ways to pass piss tests(clean kits, fake piss. clean piss...yes even while somebody is watching you. unless they are staring at your urethra, there are ways to make it look like you are peeing) while still being a regular user of the drug.
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Having played ITG/DDR at an extremely high level, a friend of mine who had always been worse than me for the longest time ever, played almost perfectly after taking speed. he even freestyled on Max 300 on Heavy, and still managed to get all perfects =/ This guy had never even gotten close to a Double A on Max 300 before this. I do know drugs will help you react faster in games. Unlike Pain Relievers which will probably slow your movements down.
There are also other tricks to help focus your concentration, surprisingly starving yourself raises levels of concentration. But you would most likely suffer from other attributes due to being hungry such as slower movements.
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On April 07 2011 08:30 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:19 TreDawg wrote:
Work smarter, not harder.
Should we also ban things like practicing more than 8 hours a day? That's clearly an advantage for the players who do it. Should all pros have the same diet? The food you eat and how healthy you are plays a big role in concentration and mental/physical stamina.
A player who refuses to take any advantage they can is foolish, not righteous.
Whatever helps you get to the top is fine so long as you're willing to accept the consequences of doing it. Huh, you're comparing illegal drugs that give a possible short-term concentration boost with practicing? How are the two even equivalent?
First off, Adderral isn't illegal and a lot of performance enhancing substances like nootropics and vitamins aren't either. 2nd, the whole point of eliminating things like this is to remove an "unfair advantage" but why are drugs an unfair advantage and practice isn't? They both produce an advantage over someone who someone who doesn't utilize it. Why is one unfair and the other isn't? You also completely ignored the portion where I talk about diet and how it affects your mental and physical stamina. Is that an unfair advantage as well? Fatty foods are known to increase your ability to focus and concentrate. Some people, like vegetarians, don't get a lot of essential nutrients that can make their bodies inefficient and thus, worse at concentrating for long periods of time.
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This is drug abuse (or substance abuse) in one of its purest forms. If you believe SC2 should promote drug abuse, then I suppose you can endorse it.
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On April 19 2011 03:20 Neo.NEt wrote:
I've never seen so many ignorant people in one thread...a lot of you are just disregarding this without even thinking about it b/c you think it sounds stupid. If you've never taken adderall, then your opinion on whether or not it makes you better at starcraft doesn't really matter.
I'm at work so I can't do this now, but when I get home I'll open up sc2 gears and look at my apm/win ratios for my games on adderall vs. the games not on adderall (which will be very easy b/c it's worn off by the time I get home from work and all of my games on the weekends are when I'm on it).
I can guarantee my apm is at least 20 or 30 higher and I would bet my win is going to be higher as well for those of you who want to argue that I'm just spamming faster, which I must say would be a good argument.
That's not a legit comparison, at all.
You are used to taking it and playing with it, of course you are going to play worse without it. Sounds like you even take it for work and on weekends which is a little extreme, so your body will be going through withdrawal (regardless of if you recognize this withdrawal or not) when you are not on it which is why you can't play as well. You have to compare a healthy person who does not used adderall at all to someone like yourself to get any objective result.
It's like comparing a drunk person to the same person with a hangover and saying "see, I play better drunk!", though not as extreme.
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It's a slippery slope if you ban it.
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0...
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On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote:
It's a slippery slope if you ban it.
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus?
Indeed.
I also think it's genuinely not viable though. Some tournaments span days - you'd have to take a piss test right before you play and even then a pro might not take it before a group stage he was very likely to get through and take the drug before the later stages. I'm not sure how long it remains in the system for.
That and look at the NASL, people don't go to one location so it's just impossible to test every of the 50 players in it.
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On April 19 2011 03:29 TreDawg wrote:First off, Adderral isn't illegal and a lot of performance enhancing substances like nootropics and vitamins aren't either. 2nd, the whole point of eliminating things like this is to remove an "unfair advantage" but why are drugs an unfair advantage and practice isn't? They both produce an advantage over someone who someone who doesn't utilize it. Why is one unfair and the other isn't? You also completely ignored the portion where I talk about diet and how it affects your mental and physical stamina. Is that an unfair advantage as well? Fatty foods are known to increase your ability to focus and concentrate. Some people, like vegetarians, don't get a lot of essential nutrients that can make their bodies inefficient and thus, worse at concentrating for long periods of time.
On April 19 2011 03:20 Neo.NEt wrote:I've never seen so many ignorant people in one thread...a lot of you are just disregarding this without even thinking about it b/c you think it sounds stupid. If you've never taken adderall, then your opinion on whether or not it makes you better at starcraft doesn't really matter.
I'm at work so I can't do this now, but when I get home I'll open up sc2 gears and look at my apm/win ratios for my games on adderall vs. the games not on adderall (which will be very easy b/c it's worn off by the time I get home from work and all of my games on the weekends are when I'm on it).
I can guarantee my apm is at least 20 or 30 higher and I would bet my win is going to be higher as well for those of you who want to argue that I'm just spamming faster, which I must say would be a good argument.
An ends-justify-the-means attitude is both naive and misanthropic and the consequences of such an attitude can be incredibly destructive.
There are a lot of ways players can ensure they have an advantage. Some are legitimate, and others are cheating. So what if drugs improve their APM or concentration. Are we going to accept drug use as a legitimate stand-in for hard work and practice? How about knee-capping your opponents? Or hacking? Besides, there are a lot of little kids playing pro-level SC. Do you really want pro gaming to be an environment where 15 yo kids have to start abusing amphetamines to be competitive?
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On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote:
It's a slippery slope if you ban it.
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0...
Rofl what a terrible comparison. You're comparing something that specifically CHEMICALLY ALTERS your brain state with music?
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Totally agree with post directly above me ... WTF? cummon arguemnts like that are why people say drugs are bad. Stop taking LSD man -multivitamins was good though 
can people who do not have medical degrees or performed double blind studies with control groups not spout nonsense about the effectiveness of drugs.
*It has been proven time and time again that amphetamines do not improve reaction time* - the perception is that the opposite is true.
I love drugs they make you realise that the world is simply your perception of it and the whole of reality is a shared experience. The only bad thing about drugs is the laws that makes you a criminal for using them - ironic as most people against them are religious yet god made them ...
do drugs improve performance? YEAH in some ways whilst at the same time diminishing in others.
If you take amphetamines of course you are hyper and click like a madman ... the tradeoff is that you memory is worse, you learn less and you cannot follow a single train of thought for as long. Maybe that will win in SC2 as a lot of the game is internalised however if you end up playing a wierd game you will have more problems adapting.
But tbh why do we think amphetamines are bad yet taking glucose is acceptable? That is WIERD as both cause organ failure over time.;
The real problem is that alcohol and marujuana are not exactly performance enhancing but would also have to be banned ... what about salbutamol that is used to treat asthma? Some people need that to breathe yet you are excluding them on medical grounds?
The issue is not possible to resolve ... the real problem will come when people are taking drugs just to get on a level playing field which then leads to a situation where peopel are causing harm to themselves to be bale to compete. That cannot be a good situation. As such even an open minded liberal like me who opposes all forms of prohibition would say you are best of not allowing them in professional environments unless dosages can be accuratley measured.
The problem then is you can modify substances and so it goes on and on.
**The key thing though is protecting the players.**
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Personally I think that in a non-physical competition like e-sports, players should be able to consume any drug that they wish.
There simply isn't a directly measurable thing that these drugs do. It isn't like steroids where you can point at muscle and know that strength gives an advantage.
So all we have left is a big show of faking drug test results and constantly finding alternatives, as you simply can't ban all stimulants like coffee. There will always be a way to get around drug tests and thankfully since e-sports success isn't based on strength and muscle size, we should just allow all drugs.
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On April 19 2011 03:42 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote:
It's a slippery slope if you ban it.
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0... Rofl what a terrible comparison. You're comparing something that specifically CHEMICALLY ALTERS your brain state with music?
I am pretty sure that if the music truly does allow you to focus better, then it is indeed altering your brain chemistry.
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On April 19 2011 03:32 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:20 Neo.NEt wrote:
I've never seen so many ignorant people in one thread...a lot of you are just disregarding this without even thinking about it b/c you think it sounds stupid. If you've never taken adderall, then your opinion on whether or not it makes you better at starcraft doesn't really matter.
I'm at work so I can't do this now, but when I get home I'll open up sc2 gears and look at my apm/win ratios for my games on adderall vs. the games not on adderall (which will be very easy b/c it's worn off by the time I get home from work and all of my games on the weekends are when I'm on it).
I can guarantee my apm is at least 20 or 30 higher and I would bet my win is going to be higher as well for those of you who want to argue that I'm just spamming faster, which I must say would be a good argument. That's not a legit comparison, at all. You are used to taking it and playing with it, of course you are going to play worse without it. Sounds like you even take it for work and on weekends which is a little extreme, so your body will be going through withdrawal (regardless of if you recognize this withdrawal or not) when you are not on it which is why you can't play as well. You have to compare a healthy person who does not used adderall at all to someone like yourself to get any objective result. It's like comparing a drunk person to the same person with a hangover and saying "see, I play better drunk!", though not as extreme.
I take it at like 8 in the morning and I get home to play at like 6-7 at night... how is that not a fair comparison? What do you think once the adderall wears off I can barely function or something?
I bet you have an easy time making friends... "compare a healthy person to someone like yourself" and "which is a little extreme".... glad you know enough about me to make these claims.
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On April 19 2011 03:41 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:29 TreDawg wrote:First off, Adderral isn't illegal and a lot of performance enhancing substances like nootropics and vitamins aren't either. 2nd, the whole point of eliminating things like this is to remove an "unfair advantage" but why are drugs an unfair advantage and practice isn't? They both produce an advantage over someone who someone who doesn't utilize it. Why is one unfair and the other isn't? You also completely ignored the portion where I talk about diet and how it affects your mental and physical stamina. Is that an unfair advantage as well? Fatty foods are known to increase your ability to focus and concentrate. Some people, like vegetarians, don't get a lot of essential nutrients that can make their bodies inefficient and thus, worse at concentrating for long periods of time. Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:20 Neo.NEt wrote:I've never seen so many ignorant people in one thread...a lot of you are just disregarding this without even thinking about it b/c you think it sounds stupid. If you've never taken adderall, then your opinion on whether or not it makes you better at starcraft doesn't really matter.
I'm at work so I can't do this now, but when I get home I'll open up sc2 gears and look at my apm/win ratios for my games on adderall vs. the games not on adderall (which will be very easy b/c it's worn off by the time I get home from work and all of my games on the weekends are when I'm on it).
I can guarantee my apm is at least 20 or 30 higher and I would bet my win is going to be higher as well for those of you who want to argue that I'm just spamming faster, which I must say would be a good argument. An ends-justify-the-means attitude is both naive and misanthropic and the consequences of such an attitude can be incredibly destructive. There are a lot of ways players can ensure they have an advantage. Some are legitimate, and others are cheating. So what if drugs improve their APM or concentration. Are we going to accept drug use as a legitimate stand-in for hard work and practice? How about knee-capping your opponents? Or hacking? Besides, there are a lot of little kids playing pro-level SC. Do you really want pro gaming to be an environment where 15 yo kids have to start abusing amphetamines to be competitive?
I didn't say anything about taking it being right or wrong, just that it makes you better.
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On April 19 2011 03:50 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:42 thebigdonkey wrote:On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote:
It's a slippery slope if you ban it.
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0... Rofl what a terrible comparison. You're comparing something that specifically CHEMICALLY ALTERS your brain state with music? I am pretty sure that if the music truly does allow you to focus better, then it is indeed altering your brain chemistry.
Music can trigger physiological responses by your body and nervous system. You know how you get chills down your spine from certain songs ? I'll save the science lesson and just point out how ignorant you are for saying that is a terrible comparison.
My main problem with this thread is that the poll question singles out stimulants. Depressants can effect performance just as much if not more than stimulants.
Other than that, I think it is too grey of an area to enforce any actual policy in. With the myriad of mental conditions being added to reference books each year, eventually you will have people with new 'disorders' or 'conditions' litigating with claims of discrimination etc. if they are not allowed to participate because of taking a Rx.
While nice in theory, the whole idea is impractical.
Personally I think that in a non-physical competition like e-sports, players should be able to consume any drug that they wish.
There simply isn't a directly measurable thing that these drugs do. It isn't like steroids where you can point at muscle and know that strength gives an advantage.
So all we have left is a big show of faking drug test results and constantly finding alternatives, as you simply can't ban all stimulants like coffee. There will always be a way to get around drug tests and thankfully since e-sports success isn't based on strength and muscle size, we should just allow all drugs.
Actually there are ways to measure the chemical effect that drugs have on a person, but the perceived effect by the individual taking it is what will vary.
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The reason for the guffaw at music is that one cannot consider aligning your environment to be in tune with yourself and ingesting chemicals to be the same.
Of course music has en effect on physiology, however music involves vibrations of air that occur constantly. Ingesting an amphetamine usually involes a chemical that was produced in a factory with the intention of simulating the same results from music.
There is a big difference because the effect that music can have is nothing like the devestating effect ingesting chemicals can have. The choice of listening to a particular song carries no risk of death unless you also tweak other environmental factors.
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There are a lot of issues surrounding the use of drugs that enhance cognitive skills. There is a serious debate going on in the medical community about it. However in my opinion the genie is out of the bottle and too many people are already using these drugs for anyone to ban them at this point.
Here is a news story from a few years ago:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1092826/Cambridge-professor-calls-healthy-adults-use-Ritalin-boost-brain-power.html
Here is a link to the full article:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7223/full/456702a.html
And here is the conclusion of the article, which seems like a sensible assessment to me:
Like all new technologies, cognitive enhancement can be used well or poorly. We should welcome new methods of improving our brain function. In a world in which human workspans and lifespans are increasing, cognitive enhancement tools — including the pharmacological — will be increasingly useful for improved quality of life and extended work productivity, as well as to stave off normal and pathological age-related cognitive declines23. Safe and effective cognitive enhancers will benefit both the individual and society.
But it would also be foolish to ignore problems that such use of drugs could create or exacerbate. With this, as with other technologies, we need to think and work hard to maximize its benefits and minimize its harms.
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On April 19 2011 03:50 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:42 thebigdonkey wrote:On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote:
It's a slippery slope if you ban it.
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0... Rofl what a terrible comparison. You're comparing something that specifically CHEMICALLY ALTERS your brain state with music? I am pretty sure that if the music truly does allow you to focus better, then it is indeed altering your brain chemistry.
Oh in that case we should ban music too. Also, working a 9-5 should be illegal because it lets you get money just like robbing a bank does.
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Coffee and cigarettes should be allowed :D Whatever APM boost you get from the coffee you lose when you smoke while playing - tested by me :D
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to enforce this you would really have to violate everyone's rights pretty badly and it just isn't worth it considering they are legal drugs and players aren't making much money anyway compared to other sports. I don't really think they give an unfair advantage anyway, but others can discuss that.
I read the question as - Should we violate a person's right to privacy because they are playing sc2 professionally?
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On April 19 2011 04:27 ziggurat wrote:There are a lot of issues surrounding the use of drugs that enhance cognitive skills. There is a serious debate going on in the medical community about it. However in my opinion the genie is out of the bottle and too many people are already using these drugs for anyone to ban them at this point. Here is a news story from a few years ago: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1092826/Cambridge-professor-calls-healthy-adults-use-Ritalin-boost-brain-power.htmlHere is a link to the full article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7223/full/456702a.htmlAnd here is the conclusion of the article, which seems like a sensible assessment to me: Like all new technologies, cognitive enhancement can be used well or poorly. We should welcome new methods of improving our brain function. In a world in which human workspans and lifespans are increasing, cognitive enhancement tools — including the pharmacological — will be increasingly useful for improved quality of life and extended work productivity, as well as to stave off normal and pathological age-related cognitive declines23. Safe and effective cognitive enhancers will benefit both the individual and society. But it would also be foolish to ignore problems that such use of drugs could create or exacerbate. With this, as with other technologies, we need to think and work hard to maximize its benefits and minimize its harms.
The scientific (and especially the pharmaceutical!) community regularly bandwagons on things like this. Amphetamines were prescribed like candy back in the 80s for virtually anything because they were the hot new drug on the block. The truth is natural is almost invariably better in the long term; anyone with a fairly good understanding of human physiology should be able to see why.
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so DMAE is considered a drug? just to know...
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YES, Adderall should be allowed.. there is no need for any type of drug testing in e-sports...if Adderall were to be banned for boosting a person's ability to concentration than so should Caffeine, because caffeine is undeniably a drug.
As far as Adderall goes, it would be unfair to to ban the use of that drug because the people who have ADD do legitimately need it to concentrate. Now I do realize how easy it is to get a script of Adderall even if you don't need it.. but think about it...if it's banned than people who do need it for their ADD are at a disadvantage.
Eyeglasses make a person's vision better right? Should glasses be banned based on that fact? No. Because glasses are only necessary to help a person whose vision is impaired, much like Adderall is really only necessary to help people who have ADD and whose ability to concentrate it impaired. And Adderall isn't necessarily going to help any Starcraft player who takes it. Sure it enhances concentration but so does caffeine. I think being calm and relaxed before a match would be more advantageous for a player than being all tweaked out and finicky from Adderall. But it'd be a matter of personal preference considering Adderall can affect different people in different ways.
But here's the punchline...
Caffeine IS A DRUG(FACT) that is proven to enhance concentration(FACT). That being said, shouldn't caffeine be banned based on the fact that when a person uses it they can have an advantage over someone who doesn't use it?
What about tobacco? Nicotine IS A DRUG that is proven to calm nerves and enhance concentration. If a player were to smoke a cigarette before a match to calm his nerves, wouldn't that drug give him an advantage over a person who doesn't smoke because the person who doesn't smoke would have to manage his nerves naturally without assistance from a drug?
When it comes down to it there's simply too many holes in the logic behind banning Adderall. For this to be logically sound, every single drug in existence (including weed, adderall, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, etc, etc..) would have to be included in the screening because one could claim that any type of drug could somehow give someone an "unfair advantage."
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On April 19 2011 04:47 acie wrote:
to enforce this you would really have to violate everyone's rights pretty badly and it just isn't worth it considering they are legal drugs and players aren't making much money anyway compared to other sports. I don't really think they give an unfair advantage anyway, but others can discuss that.
I read the question as - Should we violate a person's right to privacy because they are playing sc2 professionally?
They're legal for prescription holders, not for the rest of us (at least in most countries). If the league policy wound up being that using these drugs for non-medical reasons warranted disqualification, and the player agreed to that, then yes, absolutely.
Obviously they'd have to discuss players with specific medical needs on a case by case basis. As far as I know, that would be new territory, unless someone knows of a condition a person might have that would require a prescribed steroid treatment and leave them in the physical condition to be a professional athlete.
But either way, there needs to be concrete, numerical evidence in support of the hypothesis that using amphetamine based cognitive enhancers actually precipitates higher win percentages within the context of Starcraft 2. Without that, there really isn't a serious conversation to be had.
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On April 19 2011 04:29 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:50 skipdog172 wrote:On April 19 2011 03:42 thebigdonkey wrote:On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote:
It's a slippery slope if you ban it.
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0... Rofl what a terrible comparison. You're comparing something that specifically CHEMICALLY ALTERS your brain state with music? I am pretty sure that if the music truly does allow you to focus better, then it is indeed altering your brain chemistry. Oh in that case we should ban music too. Also, working a 9-5 should be illegal because it lets you get money just like robbing a bank does.
It is a horrible comparison, but not exactly because of that. Why are drugs banned in any respectable sport? Because it gives an unfair advantage to those who use it AND are harmfull to the players, so everyone taking them to be on equal ground would be ridiculous. If taking a shower before a game helps you focus it's also not bannable in any other sport.
On April 19 2011 05:10 robopork wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 04:47 acie wrote:
to enforce this you would really have to violate everyone's rights pretty badly and it just isn't worth it considering they are legal drugs and players aren't making much money anyway compared to other sports. I don't really think they give an unfair advantage anyway, but others can discuss that.
I read the question as - Should we violate a person's right to privacy because they are playing sc2 professionally?
They're legal for prescription holders, not for the rest of us (at least in most countries). If the league policy wound up being that using these drugs for non-medical reasons warranted disqualification, and the player agreed to that, then yes, absolutely. Obviously they'd have to discuss players with specific medical needs on a case by case basis. As far as I know, that would be new territory, unless someone knows of a condition a person might have that would require a prescribed steroid treatment and leave them in the physical condition to be a professional athlete. But either way, there needs to be concrete, numerical evidence in support of the hypothesis that using amphetamine based cognitive enhancers actually precipitates higher win percentages within the context of Starcraft 2. Without that, there really isn't a serious conversation to be had.
This happens in every other sport, drugs are never allowed, prescription or not. If the medicine is necessary, and there is no other avaible option, I believe that person can't be an athlete. And there are plenty of drugs with no definitive proof in the context of every sport that are still banned. I guess the question should be what makes StarCraft diferent than any other sport?
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On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote:
It's a slippery slope if you ban it.
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0...
EXACTLY..well said.. not to mention caffeine and nicotine..they'd have to start banning literally all sorts of things to adhere to this type of logic..
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I feel it has a genuine need to be restricted if it does in fact provide players with a unfair advantage and to my dismay everyone continues to talk about the drugs listed rather then the bigger picture. If theres a need for the player to use it such as ADHD and etc. then the drug can be considered fine as their gameplay is not exactly being effected as its assumed they're always in that state, whereas players who have no need for it use stimulants and steroids it destroys the field of sportsmanship and balance by using it for the purpose of getting ahead.
This may also be sidestepped by proposing the logical way of things and restricting certain drugs that are obviously unfair or dangerous to the players involved.
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the GSL or MLG or any starcraft 2 league has zero right to know your medical history and what medication you take or anything you ingested, so making a policy about it would be pointless. You can't even ask if the GSL(for example) should allow certain drugs as they have no right or authority to make those decisions
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Why wouldn't you ban abuse of amphetamine?
You can either play the game with or without drugs. And i really can't see many upsides in more kids on drugs.
And I'm pretty sure that caffeine and nicotine just makes you more anxious so they are not helping much.
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We also have to keep in mind that we are talking about pro gamers. Most of them probably barely even know how to order a beer, I think they'll do even worse when it comes to getting a steady supply of illegal prescription drugs. That was a joke by the way, best point that out.
Anyways, you have to keep in mind that players have to travel internationally for most tournaments. Good luck relying on an illegal drug to keep your game in check when you have to travel at least a couple of times a year. Also, there's no such thing as clear cut as 'mental steroids', the human brain is slightly more complex than that. It's not a coincidence that amphetamines are a drug that's mainly used for its so called "practical purposes" by desperate students and truckers.
The illegality of the drug unless prescribed sort of ends the discussion for me, pure and simple. The rest is about the integrity of the game.
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On April 19 2011 05:09 Vaelestrasz wrote:
YES, Adderall should be allowed.. there is no need for any type of drug testing in e-sports...if Adderall were to be banned for boosting a person's ability to concentration than so should Caffeine, because caffeine is undeniably a drug.
As far as Adderall goes, it would be unfair to to ban the use of that drug because the people who have ADD do legitimately need it to concentrate. Now I do realize how easy it is to get a script of Adderall even if you don't need it.. but think about it...if it's banned than people who do need it for their ADD are at a disadvantage.
Eyeglasses make a person's vision better right? Should glasses be banned based on that fact? No. Because glasses are only necessary to help a person whose vision is impaired, much like Adderall is really only necessary to help people who have ADD and whose ability to concentrate it impaired. And Adderall isn't necessarily going to help any Starcraft player who takes it. Sure it enhances concentration but so does caffeine. I think being calm and relaxed before a match would be more advantageous for a player than being all tweaked out and finicky from Adderall. But it'd be a matter of personal preference considering Adderall can affect different people in different ways.
But here's the punchline...
Caffeine IS A DRUG(FACT) that is proven to enhance concentration(FACT). That being said, shouldn't caffeine be banned based on the fact that when a person uses it they can have an advantage over someone who doesn't use it?
What about tobacco? Nicotine IS A DRUG that is proven to calm nerves and enhance concentration. If a player were to smoke a cigarette before a match to calm his nerves, wouldn't that drug give him an advantage over a person who doesn't smoke because the person who doesn't smoke would have to manage his nerves naturally without assistance from a drug?
When it comes down to it there's simply too many holes in the logic behind banning Adderall. For this to be logically sound, every single drug in existence (including weed, adderall, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, etc, etc..) would have to be included in the screening because one could claim that any type of drug could somehow give someone an "unfair advantage."
Typing "FACT" after everything you say doesn't make it more logical. The real FACT is that Adderall is a controlled substance and if people are abusing it illegally to try to gain a competitive advantage, they should be banned from tournaments. Why? Because people should not have to make a "lesser of two evils" choice between losing and breaking the law. Just like athletes should not have to choose between taking illegal performance enhancers and being an also-ran. Nobody is trying to say that people with a legitimate diagnosis and prescription should not be allowed to participate. But I have yet to see a logical explanation that shows adderall use in gaming as anything more than an underhanded attempt to gain an edge over legit players.
You can try to rationalize it all you want, but cheating is cheating.
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On April 06 2011 12:55 Truffy wrote:
In traditional professional sports, even if you were ADD there is no way you would ever be allowed to take amphetamines before you play. You actually can't take it at all, you would be immediately fired if they drug tested you and found out you were taking it.
This is completely untrue.
"MLB in December of 2010 began to focus more of it's attention on Adderall due to findings that more and more players were getting exemption forms from doctors. From NY Daily News, "105 players had an exemption form from this past season, 108 in 2009, and 106 in 2008." That is a little over 10% of baseball players in the MLB are just taking Adderall."
Source: http://sorrybrosports.blogspot.com/2011/03/adderall-era.html
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I drank 17 bottles of Mountain Dew just now. I guess I should be banned from playing because it's an unfair advantage over the opponent. Saying Adderall is a chemical means nothing because everything you do stimulates chemical activity in some way >.<
By the way, people aren't necessarily abusing it illegally. If you're trying to throw around the question of legality around, then you haven't really paid attention to the US' policy on giving out prescriptions.
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I see a lot of things wrong with this thread.
The poll itself is so incredibly biased that it's no wonder how the voting went... The introduction only gives one side of the story, and the wording of the poll is far more likely to result in a "No" vote. If it were worded as "Should pharmaceutical medications (like Adderall) be banned?", then you would probably see the opposite result.
The next problem I see is that it is assumed that Adderall (and similar drugs) does, in fact, enhance your performance. Show me a scientifically rigorous test for this. If it DOES have an effect, how much? Enough to even bother worrying about?
Then, you have to show that, even if it were banned, it can be enforced practically. Who's paying for this? Is there even a test for these drugs? It isn't exactly a long-term drug; How soon before the match are you going to test? Some of these drugs act really damn fast; what's to stop me from taking one right after you test me? Test after the match? Okay, I just ruined your bracket and your live broadcast. I'm guessing it will only apply to LAN events? I don't see how you can enforce this for an online tournament.
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Only skimmed through the thread and my bet is that probably no one has even tried Adderall. If you had tried it you'd know that it isn't really "performance enhancing", I've tried alot of shit when just fooling around with friends.. nothing has made me a better player, only the contrary.
If I was in a tournament and they asked me if it was okay if my opponent used this type of "enhancer" I'd just give them a "glhf", since it'll only enhance their confidence if they believe it is an enhancer. There's a chance they will sweat more and/or get a bit shakier hands.
And them being on drugs would enhance my confidence. (:
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On April 19 2011 05:01 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 04:27 ziggurat wrote:There are a lot of issues surrounding the use of drugs that enhance cognitive skills. There is a serious debate going on in the medical community about it. However in my opinion the genie is out of the bottle and too many people are already using these drugs for anyone to ban them at this point. Here is a news story from a few years ago: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1092826/Cambridge-professor-calls-healthy-adults-use-Ritalin-boost-brain-power.htmlHere is a link to the full article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7223/full/456702a.htmlAnd here is the conclusion of the article, which seems like a sensible assessment to me: Like all new technologies, cognitive enhancement can be used well or poorly. We should welcome new methods of improving our brain function. In a world in which human workspans and lifespans are increasing, cognitive enhancement tools — including the pharmacological — will be increasingly useful for improved quality of life and extended work productivity, as well as to stave off normal and pathological age-related cognitive declines23. Safe and effective cognitive enhancers will benefit both the individual and society. But it would also be foolish to ignore problems that such use of drugs could create or exacerbate. With this, as with other technologies, we need to think and work hard to maximize its benefits and minimize its harms. The scientific (and especially the pharmaceutical!) community regularly bandwagons on things like this. Amphetamines were prescribed like candy back in the 80s for virtually anything because they were the hot new drug on the block. The truth is natural is almost invariably better in the long term; anyone with a fairly good understanding of human physiology should be able to see why.
Nice argument.
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On April 19 2011 05:48 thebigdonkey wrote:
Typing "FACT" after everything you say doesn't make it more logical. The real FACT is that Adderall is a controlled substance and if people are abusing it illegally to try to gain a competitive advantage, they should be banned from tournaments. Why? Because people should not have to make a "lesser of two evils" choice between losing and breaking the law. Just like athletes should not have to choose between taking illegal performance enhancers and being an also-ran. Nobody is trying to say that people with a legitimate diagnosis and prescription should not be allowed to participate. But I have yet to see a logical explanation that shows adderall use in gaming as anything more than an underhanded attempt to gain an edge over legit players.
You can try to rationalize it all you want, but cheating is cheating.
LOL, so typing "(FACT)" two times in my entire post is somehow the same as "after everything that i said?".... ok...well I understand the points you are trying to make.. but how can one determine if "people are abusing it illegally to try to gain a competitive advantage" when virtually anyone can get it prescribed? (which is the legal way of acquiring it).. If they were to ban it altogether based on the fact that only some people abuse it then the people who do actually need it are gonna be getting screwed. The problem is that literally anyone can get an Adderall prescription. The only way to weed out and punish the people who got their prescription just to assist their gaming would be to hook up every pro gamer who has an Adderall prescription to a polygraph machine and ask them if they actually have ADHD or if they got it to "cheat." and i dont see that happening... think about it..I don't have ADHD, but i could easily meet with a doctor and easily acquire a script..that's not illegal...How would anyone be able to determine if i got it to cheat or if i actually needed it? I understand that if it were banned that it would stop people from "cheating" with it...but at the same time it would prohibit the people who do need it from using it....which would be like prohibiting someone who cant see and who needs glasses from using their glasses...
Unfortunately ADHD cannot be diagnosed by concrete evidence like a blood test..its diagnosed based on symptoms that pretty much anyone can claim they experience..there's no real way to prove that any of the people who have Adderall scripts don't actually need Adderall...
And lastly, the FACT of the matter is, that there is no actual proof that Adderall enhances gaming performance. its only speculation..
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On April 19 2011 05:01 TheTenthDoc wrote:
The scientific (and especially the pharmaceutical!) community regularly bandwagons on things like this. Amphetamines were prescribed like candy back in the 80s for virtually anything because they were the hot new drug on the block. The truth is natural is almost invariably better in the long term; anyone with a fairly good understanding of human physiology should be able to see why.
Ummmm.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropics
Natural is not almost always better. In fact, most "natural" performance enhancers and remedies are subject to much larger lists of side effects and are nowhere near as potent as their man-made counterparts.
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On April 19 2011 07:15 TreDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 05:01 TheTenthDoc wrote:
The scientific (and especially the pharmaceutical!) community regularly bandwagons on things like this. Amphetamines were prescribed like candy back in the 80s for virtually anything because they were the hot new drug on the block. The truth is natural is almost invariably better in the long term; anyone with a fairly good understanding of human physiology should be able to see why. Ummmm.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NootropicsNatural is not almost always better. In fact, most "natural" performance enhancers and remedies are subject to much larger lists of side effects and are nowhere near as potent as their man-made counterparts.
<3 Piracetam.
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well i say yes, i don't believe it really does "enhance performance" like people think it does. way i see it it just elevates the concentration of someone who really needs the medication to the levels of a normal person. and for the "normal" people it just makes them much more likely to focus on one thing and forget to multitask.
honestly in a multitasking game like starcraft i can only see it hurting your performance
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First off, to all you people who are using the 'slippery slope' argument (which is a logical fallacy...), you can't possibly say that they could then ban caffeine, etc. The difference is that caffeine is legal over the counter. By your logic, professional sports shouldn't be banning any drugs because there are legal drugs that help performance. Hell, even in cycling, the athletes take expressos and such during rides. Please stop spouting slippery slope bullshit like it holds any logical ground.
Although, I do think these drugs shouldn't be banned (referring to gaming now), simply because it is completely impractical to do so. It will add unnecessary costs, and the question of how you would handle people who can legally obtain the drugs would be a tough one to answer.
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i think a pretty simple solution is to just say that if you are taking the drug illegally then it should be against the rules. if you have a prescription for it, then that is fine and it should be allowed in those circumstances. it should be a doctor decision to let the person take the drug, not some league official's decision
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If it is banned, then no one should be allowed to use it during competition, prescription or not.
Still, there's no point to banning it unless you can test for it.
From a game theoretic point of view, as long as it's not being tested for, the best strategy would be to use it.
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This post is really asking 2 questions:
1. Would taking the so-called 'psycho enhancing' drugs really make the players play better?
This is really deeper than a simple yes/no question.
Speaking from my background in Sports psychology, there is the optimum psychological tension level that enables players to perform at their optimum level. The optimum psychological tension varies from person to person, and if done correctly, chemicals such as amphetamine could be used to place the person in that range. But there are other techniques other than drugs such as progressive muscle relaxation techniques, etc to put the person into the optimum mind set.
Also another technique sports psychologists often use is to have the athlete practice in the same mind set that the person will be in/will experience at their game. The take home message from that is that simply taking amphetamine or caffeine prior to the big game may hinder their performance as they are not used to performing under such psychological state.
2. Is it unethical to take performance enhancing drugs? (in sports, esports, etc)
Now this is just opening a big pandora's box that will not have a conclusive answer - I can promise you that.
My personal stance is that you it's not really possible to draw the line. Taking the analogy to sports, how can can u really draw a line between protein/vitamin supplements (considered legal) vs. erythropoietin/steroid supplement (considered illegal). They are all safe so long as they are taken in proper amount with proper monitoring. They can all be very dangerous if taken in ginormous quantities. There's no real definitive answer here.
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On April 19 2011 08:13 Mainland wrote:
If it is banned, then no one should be allowed to use it during competition, prescription or not.
Still, there's no point to banning it unless you can test for it.
From a game theoretic point of view, as long as it's not being tested for, the best strategy would be to use it.
Both Ritalin and Adderall (and all the knock offs) can be tested for.
If they decided to ban it, tournament participants would basically have to agree to a urine / blood test to screen for drugs (and not just the aforementioned two). I don't know how hard that would be to setup outside the US, but it probably wouldn't be hard to get a contract going. Naturally, it will increase the operating cost of the tournament, and it'll bug the shit out of the players, two things you want to prevent if possible.
Having been Rx'd Vyvanse, which is the newest ADHD cash cow drug, there were sometimes trade-offs for performance, but it's going to vary a bit for each person. It could be that taking psychostims improves all your SC2-related skills, while something like social skills (pfft, who needs those) suffer. You might be a better single tasker, but multitasking falls. Stuff like that.
Also, it's ridiculously easy to get these meds from a doctor that you have a history with (most won't Rx you on first or second visit because of drug seekers). Most of us have family doctors, and the test to get them isn't rocket surgery by any means. I'm sure most of us could look at it and guess what we'd have to answer to get the drug.
With that in mind, a policy that forbids non-prescribed drug use will be about as useful as a wet noodle in a sword fight.
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On April 19 2011 08:28 Softboing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 08:13 Mainland wrote:
If it is banned, then no one should be allowed to use it during competition, prescription or not.
Still, there's no point to banning it unless you can test for it.
From a game theoretic point of view, as long as it's not being tested for, the best strategy would be to use it. With that in mind, a policy that forbids non-prescribed drug use will be about as useful as a wet noodle in a sword fight.
Only if you know what I can do with a wet noodle in a sword fight....
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On April 19 2011 08:13 Mainland wrote:
If it is banned, then no one should be allowed to use it during competition, prescription or not.
Still, there's no point to banning it unless you can test for it.
From a game theoretic point of view, as long as it's not being tested for, the best strategy would be to use it.
well what happens then when the person that has it legally prescribed to them isnt allowed to take it that day? that would be more of a detriment to them than the advantage given to a person taking the pill at leisure (unprescribed) because of withdrawal and psychological influence. it isnt fair to ban it from people that need the pill as a prescription.
i realize it can never be perfect, but i think the best thing to do is leave it up to doctors since they know more about needs for the drug and can determine that better than a regular person, which is why i think that prescriptions should be exempt from any rules that are implemented.
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I played WCG on Adderrall once, no one really seemed to notice. Piss testing would have to be implemented, and that would be really expensive. And plus, as others have pointed out, what if you have a prescription?
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You can't be on top of things like that, for example, if it is prescribed to a person, are they going to be forced to 1. withdraw from the tournament? or 2. Just not take the medicine they need. It is a complex that im sure tournament hosts have debated for years. But its just one of those things that won't be solved with 100% satisfaction.
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Well, the same argument can be said about university exams where possibly much more is at stake. Yet even with resources to examine students for such stimulants. They wouldn't do it. In fact, most universities have not even issued a statement banning them even without enforcement. And I believe this is for a few reasons some of which im sure have beem mentioned before.
1) Advantages not totally visible or cannot be measured.
2) There is a disparity of innate intellect and ability to concentrate in each person. So a person A taking the drug might still have less ability to concentrate through no fault of his own. Can you say that that is unfairness? Is you're innate ability to perform is what is being measured rather than your preparation and hard work?
3) Enforcement can be really be annoying... and put off people from exams and university as a whole. The image of going to this strict institution, which you pay a fortune, only to end up having to piss in a cup every time you wanna take an exam.
The same things can be said about starcraft.
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On April 19 2011 08:35 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 08:28 Softboing wrote:On April 19 2011 08:13 Mainland wrote:
If it is banned, then no one should be allowed to use it during competition, prescription or not.
Still, there's no point to banning it unless you can test for it.
From a game theoretic point of view, as long as it's not being tested for, the best strategy would be to use it. With that in mind, a policy that forbids non-prescribed drug use will be about as useful as a wet noodle in a sword fight. Only if you know what I can do with a wet noodle in a sword fight....
You're from Canada and you're probably not Italian, so I'm guessing you give it to the local Pastafarian? :p
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On April 19 2011 05:17 Vaelestrasz wrote:
EXACTLY..well said.. not to mention caffeine and nicotine..they'd have to start banning literally all sorts of things to adhere to this type of logic..
Neither of them produce the same effects as speed. Amphetamine is the gold standard of stimulants. It's what every stimulant is compared to.
Personally caffeine makes me feel like a piece of dog shit. Adderall on the other hand makes me feel like a king.
On April 19 2011 06:55 Vaelestrasz wrote:
Unfortunately ADHD cannot be diagnosed by concrete evidence like a blood test..its diagnosed based on symptoms that pretty much anyone can claim they experience..there's no real way to prove that any of the people who have Adderall scripts don't actually need Adderall...
ADHD is properly diagnosed when the patient is a child. Everyone experiences symptoms of ADHD, it's only ADHD when the symptoms impair functioning.
And lastly, the FACT of the matter is, that there is no actual proof that Adderall enhances gaming performance. its only speculation..
If you knew what speed did the brain you'd probably disagree, but you have no idea, so you say things like this.
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On April 19 2011 12:58 chonkyfire wrote:Show nested quote +And lastly, the FACT of the matter is, that there is no actual proof that Adderall enhances gaming performance. its only speculation.. If you knew what speed did the brain you'd probably disagree, but you have no idea, so you say things like this.
No where has there been proof of a causation between Adderall and better performance.
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I have heard player will take pill that come him down on the stage, as they can perform as they practices.
However at this stage of the game doing drug test is a little overkill.
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On April 19 2011 13:09 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 12:58 chonkyfire wrote:And lastly, the FACT of the matter is, that there is no actual proof that Adderall enhances gaming performance. its only speculation.. If you knew what speed did the brain you'd probably disagree, but you have no idea, so you say things like this. No where has there been proof of a causation between Adderall and better performance.
because there is no study done that directly involves gaming doesn't mean it doesn't improve cognitive functioning/mood. That's proven. If you want to put your head in the sand that's fine, it doesn't really bother me
Jimi hendrix took amphetamine before he played live, I'm sure he just took it because he had ADHD though lol
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On April 19 2011 09:06 Cifer wrote:
Can you say that that is unfairness?
The point isnt "fairness"; that is something which does not exist in sports (or superstars who are clearly better than the players on the other team should never be alliowed to enter the playing field against the team which is last on the league. The point is possible drug addiction and competing with your own natural talents (and training). If you take drugs you are not being a "Sportsman" and are cheating yourself of the true exhilarating feeling you have when you win ... because how much of it was due to the doping?
Dont do drugs, you only cheat yourself. You cant control it without proper medical monitoring anyways and thus an addiction can be formed rather easily.
"Fairness" is a concept which is focuised on too much in WoW PvP (and which has ruined the PvE playing style) and also in D&D4e (by ruining that game as well), i.e. many modern games where players like to have "epeen comparisons". Thats not how life works, get used to it and if you are not as good as someone else at Starcraft you should get off your lazy ass and start training hard. The progamers did, so why should you take the shortcut?
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On April 19 2011 09:06 Cifer wrote:
Well, the same argument can be said about university exams where possibly much more is at stake. Yet even with resources to examine students for such stimulants. They wouldn't do it. In fact, most universities have not even issued a statement banning them even without enforcement. And I believe this is for a few reasons some of which im sure have beem mentioned before.
1) Advantages not totally visible or cannot be measured.
2) There is a disparity of innate intellect and ability to concentrate in each person. So a person A taking the drug might still have less ability to concentrate through no fault of his own. Can you say that that is unfairness? Is you're innate ability to perform is what is being measured rather than your preparation and hard work?
3) Enforcement can be really be annoying... and put off people from exams and university as a whole. The image of going to this strict institution, which you pay a fortune, only to end up having to piss in a cup every time you wanna take an exam.
The same things can be said about starcraft.
Most universities don't issue a statement banning them because drug abuse, which this is, is already against virtually all school policies.
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On April 19 2011 08:51 LF9 wrote:
I played WCG on Adderrall once, no one really seemed to notice. Piss testing would have to be implemented, and that would be really expensive. And plus, as others have pointed out, what if you have a prescription?
Did it enhance you're performance? Have ADHD? Had a prescription? If you answer yes to the first question no the the rest. There is you're answer why it shouldn't be allowed. Clearly stupid regardless.
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On April 19 2011 13:28 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 09:06 Cifer wrote:
Well, the same argument can be said about university exams where possibly much more is at stake. Yet even with resources to examine students for such stimulants. They wouldn't do it. In fact, most universities have not even issued a statement banning them even without enforcement. And I believe this is for a few reasons some of which im sure have beem mentioned before.
1) Advantages not totally visible or cannot be measured.
2) There is a disparity of innate intellect and ability to concentrate in each person. So a person A taking the drug might still have less ability to concentrate through no fault of his own. Can you say that that is unfairness? Is you're innate ability to perform is what is being measured rather than your preparation and hard work?
3) Enforcement can be really be annoying... and put off people from exams and university as a whole. The image of going to this strict institution, which you pay a fortune, only to end up having to piss in a cup every time you wanna take an exam.
The same things can be said about starcraft.
Most universities don't issue a statement banning them because drug abuse, which this is, is already against virtually all school policies.
This is very true, Universities don't generally have specific rules on these types of things, I checked and my university at least does just carpet ban drug abuse as a general category for enrolled students with no mention of what the effects of the drug are. (Well it specifies not legally acquired/possessed drugs)
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On April 19 2011 13:09 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 12:58 chonkyfire wrote:And lastly, the FACT of the matter is, that there is no actual proof that Adderall enhances gaming performance. its only speculation.. If you knew what speed did the brain you'd probably disagree, but you have no idea, so you say things like this. No where has there been proof of a causation between Adderall and better performance.
To be honest, it shouldn't matter that there is no proof of causation (who would even fund such a study?). If a person takes a controlled substance like Adderall with the intent to gain an edge over other players, it's cheating and should be viewed as such. I suppose this is more of an ethical point of view than a practical one as I don't know how tournaments could afford to test for drugs.
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On April 21 2011 03:01 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 13:09 Zeke50100 wrote:On April 19 2011 12:58 chonkyfire wrote:And lastly, the FACT of the matter is, that there is no actual proof that Adderall enhances gaming performance. its only speculation.. If you knew what speed did the brain you'd probably disagree, but you have no idea, so you say things like this. No where has there been proof of a causation between Adderall and better performance. To be honest, it shouldn't matter that there is no proof of causation (who would even fund such a study?). If a person takes a controlled substance like Adderall with the intent to gain an edge over other players, it's cheating and should be viewed as such. I suppose this is more of an ethical point of view than a practical one as I don't know how tournaments could afford to test for drugs.
this. seriously, no one is going to run a fucking clinical trial to show how much amphetamines improve video games. ethics are a factor. but from the scientific facts that do exist on them, it can be assumed they ought to improve gaming, and there's enough anecdotal evidence around that goes in line with that in this thread alone.
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I dunno, I mean, my brain literally can't go as fast as most people's. Am I not allowed to be a pro SC2 player because I would need stimulants to even try?
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What about people who are legitimately ADD? Do we want a universal "idk who you are, no drugs" policy?
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On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes.
I really think the spirit of the outrage is against people who abuse medication. Anyone who regularly takes Adderall is obviously not abusing it if it is regular and in proper doses-- furthermore, if you NEED amphetamines they are not going to have the "speedy" effect that abusers receive.
Before we start throwing out fake lawsuits and charges of discrimination, let's use our heads and think about what the OP probably means.
Also, calling ADHD a disability is kind of offensive to those who have real disabilities, unless it is noticeably severe. We do have to remember that ADHD is notoriously over-diagnosed, at least in America.
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where's the evidence that users actually win more when using?
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furthermore, if you NEED amphetamines they are not going to have the "speedy" effect that abusers receive. Not necessarily.
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To those of you saying something along the lines of: where is the proof that it helps gaming performance? I have one thing to say to you: You are incredibly dense, and I hate you. There is proof that it helps cognitive functions drastically.
Using your logic, I could say that steroids should not be banned in baseball because no clinical studies have proven that steroids help you hit a base ball more often and/or farther. However, since steroids ARE proven to improve physical aspects such as strength (among others), then I can logically assume that it helps people hit a baseball further.
That is, unless I want to be fucking dense and say things like "but there is no direct proof that steroids improve a person's ability to play baseball"
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I've done things like aderall and gamed...and it to say it helps is an understatement. Your reflexes go up 10 fold, you can think so much faster....however if I was a pro gamer I wouldn't want them banned lol
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I just read the Wikipedia article about adderall. One interesting fact at the end of the article:
South Korea: Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import.[citation needed]
so I guess at least in South Korea this should not be a problem, right?
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This is very true, Universities don't generally have specific rules on these types of things, I checked and my university at least does just carpet ban drug abuse as a general category for enrolled students with no mention of what the effects of the drug are. (Well it specifies not legally acquired/possessed drugs)
Exactly these drugs are LEGAL, and can be bought from the internet without prescription from licensed retailers. And it think you have to specify if you want to ban something that is legal in your school. Banning drug abuse won't cut it, as they mean recreational use.
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On April 21 2011 15:03 ploy wrote:
To those of you saying something along the lines of: where is the proof that it helps gaming performance? I have one thing to say to you: You are incredibly dense, and I hate you. There is proof that it helps cognitive functions drastically.
Using your logic, I could say that steroids should not be banned in baseball because no clinical studies have proven that steroids help you hit a base ball more often and/or farther. However, since steroids ARE proven to improve physical aspects such as strength (among others), then I can logically assume that it helps people hit a baseball further.
That is, unless I want to be fucking dense and say things like "but there is no direct proof that steroids improve a person's ability to play baseball"
The reason steroids assist physical sports like baseball is that they allow an athlete to train longer, taking steroids alone doesnt make you better it just means you can train harder which is what people consider an unfair advantage as other athletes would fatigue during training and not be able to improve as fast or as much.
Steroids dont make you hit a ball harder they just allow you to train harder which in turn makes you hit a ball harder.
As far as cognitive enhancers go, yes there are benefits to performance at some tasks and I cant speak for Adderall however I can speak for Ritalin as a non prescribed occasional user (physics student - yay!) and I can tell you that Ritalin does improve performance on games like Gears of War and Call of Duty but it absolutely does not improve my Sc2 performance.
The reasons are that you concentrate heavily on Ritalin and for me and Sc2 that means im solid focused on whats infront me on the screen, which means my map awareness goes completely out the window, my macro slips and the benefits are relatively small, just slightly better unit control tactical awareness of whats on the screen.
I lose drops, I dont maynard, I forget to build production all mistakes that mean that for me Ritalin now has a double bonus in that I concentrate on work and know I cant play Sc2.
Against I cant speak for Adderall, the effects may be different however I wanted to point out that your claims of people being dense for asking for proof are pretty idiotic themselves and taking 'logical' steps like yours are actually unscientific and ultimately flawed.
Although I will ask anyone else out there if Adderall has a similar affect on their multitasking or are the effects beneficial to them? I wonder if pros would overcome the drawbacks I face due to these things being so ingrained in their play that they are just like breathing, I am only a high diamond player however I work a lot on my macro and multitasking and there is a huge difference when I am on Ritalin
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On April 06 2011 14:48 Nadir wrote:
What are the cognitive effects of stimulant medications? Emphasis on adults with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) by Claire Advokat. From the Journal of Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. doi: doi:10.1016/j.neubiorev.2010.03.006
Abstract: The relevant literature concerning cognitive effects of amphetamine and methylphenidate, was reviewed, with an emphasis on research conducted in adults diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. As first-line treatment for ADHD, stimulant drugs are well-known to improve attention and concentration. Yet, there is increasing evidence that (as with children and adolescents), they do not promote learning and academic achievement in adult college students with ADHD. A review of neuropsychological studies indicates that, although response latencies are reduced, performance of ADHD adults on tests of ‘distractibility’ and ‘planning’ is also not consistently improved by stimulants. Studies in non-ADHD adults suggest that stimulants do not promote acquisition of new information, might improve retention of previously acquired information, and facilitate memory consolidation, but may actually impair performance of tasks that require adaptation, flexibility and planning. It is still not clear if improvement only occurs when there is a baseline deficit. Stimulants may influence cognition by their effects on physiological arousal. Regardless, the evidence does not support the conclusion that stimulants are cognitive enhancers.
You cannot call them performance enhancing drugs until you demonstrate that they actually enhance performance. The current evidence suggests that these drugs will have a negative impact on performance in a game like Starcraft 2. First Person Shooters on the other hand may well benefit from their use.
Since people seem to be missing/ignoring/denying the fact that studies do exist on the subject.
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When money is involved, no. Spare time, go for it. Any other time, learn off races.
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On April 21 2011 18:02 Cifer wrote:Show nested quote + This is very true, Universities don't generally have specific rules on these types of things, I checked and my university at least does just carpet ban drug abuse as a general category for enrolled students with no mention of what the effects of the drug are. (Well it specifies not legally acquired/possessed drugs) Exactly these drugs are LEGAL, and can be bought from the internet without prescription from licensed retailers. And it think you have to specify if you want to ban something that is legal in your school. Banning drug abuse won't cut it, as they mean recreational use.
You do know that, at least in the United States, such websites are illegal, right? I mean, they exist, and people probably do get away with buying prescriptions from them, but it isn't legal. You can be arrested for it, whether are not you are arrested for it.
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The information I've seen and things I've learned about adderall (studies I've read, studies I've taken part in, and my experiences being prescribed the medication for 15 years and seeing its effect in myself and others) have made me somewhat knowledgable on the effects of the drug and others like it. (which I have also taken).
It does increase performance in starcraft 2, particularly from a mental endurance standpoint. It would give someone a definitive edge working their way through a grueling open bracket at an MLG. You can maintain a high level of mental activity for an extended period of time without getting worn out. At college some unscrupulous people with a prescription sell these things for a dollar a milligram, and a typical pill might be 20 mg and a typical prescripion for a month might be 2 doses per day. Thats 1200 dollars. And these aren't "frat bros" trying to cram for western civ. These are grad students, pharmacy students, honors engineers... nobody knows I have the stuff and that is the way I want to keep it, especially in a dorm. In the united states it is only legal with a prescription. Some of the ADHD drugs are in schedule 1 under US drug policy. Adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) are schedule II, which puts the penalties for illegally buying and selling it in the same ballpark as cocaine or opium. If you're trying to play better sc2, I suggest you go find a practice partner or two instead.
Having said that, drug testing at professional gaming events is extremely unreasonable. Officials for a computer game have no business making a bunch of sc2/halo players pee in a cup and then requiring some sort of documentation for people who actually have ADHD. Its invasive and not practical either.
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I was hesitant to grave dig, but I feel this topic is still very important and relevant within the community. I am going to share my experiences here. I have only taken a Vyvance once. I overachieved in my schoolwork that day, then went home and cleaned. I never do that! I will obtain some adderall in the near future and give my input. id love to read more on this too, as medicine and psychology are topics of great interest to me.
edit - wow this thread is over a year old. i may have made a mistake here. sorry T_T
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On April 21 2011 14:47 tjg92 wrote:Show nested quote +furthermore, if you NEED amphetamines they are not going to have the "speedy" effect that abusers receive. Not necessarily.
People who need amphetamines don't want the speedy effect because they feel jittery to begin with.
EDIT: Whoa gravedig.
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If you don't have ADHD, you will feel jittery because the objective is to raise levels of stuff in the brain. ADHD is caused by not having enough of whatever it is(adrenaline, dopeamine.. not sure) and if you do have ADHD, you'll be "normal"
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On April 06 2011 10:14 Tercotta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No. How about the way it is enforced in every other sport.
costs money to drug test who pays that bill? the leagues? such as MLG? or the teams? How do you enforce it for online stuff? Like IPLTL or EGMCSL. See its not really enforceable unless you have a esports governing body.
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you should try playing some ladder whilst high. I play better when I had some weed. I guess dutch players get a little advantage
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I feel that when I smoke I can't play as well. I'm not as crisp. I can't wait to try some addy later when I can get my hands on some.
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Are progamers using this?
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Hell yeah, they are. I don't know any names. But If it's prevalent within the Halo community, it sure as hell is within the Starcraft community as well
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Actually i have been smoking pot regularly for years, i am only high plat and i really can't play games recreational anymore so i literally will only play if i am stoned. And it really doesn't impair my play at all, in fact i think it makes me faster i quit for a couple of months and now that i got back on pot my apm jumped like 120 lol!
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Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication?
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On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication?
Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?)
It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance).
Take this example:
If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants?
compare that to:
If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants?
I say no.
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This is quite a good philosophical issue. Full of counter-intuition and potential arguments.
+ Show Spoiler +While it seems like most people would be against the use of performance enhancing drugs in competitive gaming, the lines may blur when a person is legally prescribed the drug or when dealing with un-regulated performance enhancing drugs (e.g. caffeine).
Fundamentally, the same opposition to 'unfair advantage' may exist to prescribed drugs, but why is a line drawn between prescription drugs and those that are readily available? Would it change if such prescription drugs (e.g. adderall) were available to anyone?
I guess some answers can depend on the objective of the competition. Suppose the objective is to pit two individuals against each other on as fundamental a level as possible (i.e. with as close to identical conditions as possible).
If someone with ADHD can't focus at a "normal" level, should he be given an opportunity to address this shortcoming (through medication) before entering the competition? This situation seems to contradict with my definition for the objective of the competition by allowing one player to change his fundamental condition.
The issue of unregulated enhancement drugs such as caffeine (or other cognitive boosters) can be difficult since they are available to everyone, but have potentially harmful side effects in large quantities over prolonged periods. Logically, if the same objective of the competition is used, unregulated enhancement drugs may be banned.
However, I am not sure if they must be banned, since they are readily available and safe consumption thereof is up to an individual's discretion.
If anyone has any thoughts or counter-arguments, I'd be interested in different interpretations (via PM is fine if you don't want to bump this thread though...)
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On October 17 2012 01:07 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication? Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?) It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance). Take this example: If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants? compare that to: If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants? I say no.
I guess progamers aren't allowed to wear glasses now? Please, Adderall for an ADD patient is like giving them regular legs, not robotic ones. And AFAIK, someone was allowed to run in the Olympics with an artificial leg.
Adderall isn't "augmentation" for an ADD sufferer, it's treatment. You wouldn't criticize someone taking antibiotics to get rid of an illness. For an ADD sufferer, it brings you up to the regular level of concentration that human beings should have.
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On October 17 2012 01:07 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication? Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?) It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance). Take this example: If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants?compare that to: If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants? I say no.
you Sir just made my day lol..
and I say Yes it should be allowed i think we need more amputees with motorcycle legs at least it would make track more entertaining..
its a touchy subject since some ppl do need it for concentrating but as with everything if you allow it there will be ppl who will abuse it and nowadays getting a prescription for ADD is as easy as getting medical Weed in Cali.
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Worth noting that stimulants haven't done anything for my Sc2 game, by the way.
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Drug testing at esports events would be financially impossible for years to come, there's also the issue that a lot of gamers are prescribed adderall anyway. As someone who used to take adderall, I think it could do more harm than good in sc2 since it can impair logical thinking.
It's great for staying focused on menial work like studying or an FPS, but a pro player has no trouble at all playing at high apm (not that sc2 requires that much anyway) without drugs and it can also cause increased anxiety. Playing on adderall usually made me worse as sc2 is much more about proper decision making than mechanical speed. I usually had more benefit from weed (depending on amount obviously). Many koreans use herbal sedatives to relax themselves before a big game, allowing them to focus on the game without nerves becoming an issue.
Seeing as how anxiety issues are one of the largest hurdles for pro players and adderall tends to exacerbate these then I'm not sure how beneficial it would be. There are obviously people who do it, but some of these people could also be taking it because they think it must make them play better, and when you're on it you feel like you definitely FEEL like you play better. It's worth noting that koreans don't use amphetamines as they're outlawed in Korea. Like I said, progamers are used to focusing at least 6+ hours a day on gaming so using speed would be unnecessary unless there's issues like lack of sleep or jet lag involved. IMO some anti-anxiety med like klonopin would be much more beneficial (and probably more common in sc2).
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On October 17 2012 01:07 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication? Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?) It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance). Take this example: If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants? compare that to: If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants? I say no.
In the sport Judo there is someone on the GB team who suffers with ADHD and is not allowed to take any medication for it other wise he wouldn't be able to fight in any matches I think it should be banned for any sport including Esports and there should be drugs tests regally to check this.
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On October 17 2012 01:17 Shiori wrote:
Worth noting that stimulants haven't done anything for my Sc2 game, by the way.
Well that settles it then. =]
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This whole argument is kinda moot since drug testing is far too expensive and impractical to be viable in esports(unless there's a massive increase in popularity). However IF this was in place I doubt people with ADHD would get a pass, since it would give them an advantage. There's also the issue that adderall and other stims are WAAYY over-prescribed, while it may be true that people who legitimately have ADHD would only reach baseline concentration levels on stims, the number of people who TRULY need them is a small percentage of those prescribed. Also, the popular notion that adderall affects those with adhd differently is a myth. While they may have a legit need for the drugs that doesn't mean it affects them any differently, they simply need them to reach normal concentration levels.
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So, is Adderall classified as a performance enhancing drug?
I don't think it is, and if it isn't then I don't see a problem. Improved motivation, focus, and concentration could help basically any athlete (or cyber athlete). So, if it is as beneficial as you make it out to be, why is it not banned in other sports?
Not that this is a great argument, but it doesn't make sense if it is as beneficial as you say. Also, with greater concentration would you not get mentally exhausted even quicker? This seems counter-productive as a training/practice tool, unlike steroids which allows one to train for longer.
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On October 17 2012 03:20 Prplppleatr wrote:
So, is Adderall classified as a performance enhancing drug?
I don't think it is, and if it isn't then I don't see a problem. Improved motivation, focus, and concentration could help basically any athlete (or cyber athlete). So, if it is as beneficial as you make it out to be, why is it not banned in other sports?
Not that this is a great argument, but it doesn't make sense if it is as beneficial as you say. Also, with greater concentration would you not get mentally exhausted even quicker? This seems counter-productive as a training/practice tool, unlike steroids which allows one to train for longer.
It is banned for all sports. Adderall does allow you to focus for a longer period of time, that's the whole reason college kids abuse it, it allows you to study boring material for hours without getting tired or bored.
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I totally disagree with drug usage.
What about those energy drinks that everyone seems to be drinking?
Isn't that unfair for someone to play an opponent who just chugged 2 monster cans?
What you guys think?
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On October 17 2012 01:07 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:48 Artifex Magnus wrote:
Has anyone considered the fact that there are potentially a great many of us who are prescribed Adderall?
Is it a performance enhancing drug if your physician deems it necessary to prescribe you the medication to fix an overall problem in your life?
Could/should a league ban someone from playing when they are taking prescribed medication? Only like 50% of the posts in this thread are about this exact topic lol (read thread b4 posting much?) It;s nuts that this is even a discussion. Taking Adderall is CHEATING if you are playing competitive e-sports, regardless if you are prescribed it or not. If you are prescribed it for ADD, that does nothing to change the fact that the drug artificially increases your concentration and focus, thus improving your game (with a substance). Take this example: If I were a double amputee (legs), and had my legs replaced with a motorcycle (or robot legs), should i be allowed to participate in track meets against non-augmented participants? compare that to: If I were a ADHD patient, and had my brain improved with Adderall, should I be allowed to participate in competitive esports against non-augmented participants? I say no.
The machine parts are obviously better than the NORMAL human form.
The brain however when one has ADHD is in a current weaker form than that of a NORMAL person. So, when taking their medication their brain returns to NORMAL and everyone is on an even playing field.
Your comparison is shit. Now, if someone without ADHD was taking the drug it would be akin to the machine part of your comparison.
On a side not: Nobody should give a fuck if people are using drugs while competing. They either do or don't, but it is their life, and I'm pretty sure if you tested MVP and other top teir SC2 player or BW players in their prime they're drug free for the most part that or they keep good secrets. It doesn't actually change how games play out or else a lot of people would be doing it.
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I can see how people would jump to the conclusion that adderall and amphetamines in general are performance enhancers. However, just from my personal experience with ADHD and being prescribed "focus enhancing drugs", I play better without them. Adderall is great for homework and papers but SC2 does not require the same tasks and skill sets as school work... Adderall hinders your ability to think outside the box, limits your ability to multitask and slows your decision making process. These 3 effects are all detrimental to playing SC2 competitively. I think Adderall could be of great use for pros trying to grind out practice if you're trying to solidify a build or doing repetitive actions but I wouldnt say it enhances performance in an actually tournament setting.
The main thing people have to realize here is SC2 =/= studying. And I really don't care if its been banned in traditional sports or not because traditional sports =/= SC2 either. Until a comprehensive study is done that proves that adderall usage quantitatively enhances SC2 performance, I won't believe it.
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To the dumb PUck's wanting to take something illegal to improve your sc2 skill and stuff for maybe 4-5 hours.
It's a stupid idea honestly and won't help you improve at all, infact it's practically illegal outside of sc2.
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On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide...
...Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage.
You've obviously never tried Adderall XD
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On April 12 2015 20:32 Skaughteee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide...
...Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. You've obviously never tried Adderall XD
Don't be surprised if the mods send you a warning for responding to a four years old thread with a non-constructive comment.
It's considered SPAM and/or necro, and seems a totally unnecessary attempt to create more drama.
To quote the forum rules :
If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was deserved.
[EDIT] Just saw it's your 1st post on TL, whether or not you're a troll or simply ignorant of the etiquette doesn't matters. Here's a link to the forum rules so your stay and everyone else's may be as pleasant as possible.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
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On April 13 2015 01:28 varsovie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2015 20:32 Skaughteee wrote:On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote:
I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide...
...Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. You've obviously never tried Adderall XD Don't be surprised if the mods send you a warning for responding to a four years old thread with a non-constructive comment. It's considered SPAM and/or necro, and seems a totally unnecessary attempt to create more drama. To quote the forum rules : Show nested quote +If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was deserved. [EDIT] Just saw it's your 1st post on TL, whether or not you're a troll or simply ignorant of the etiquette doesn't matters. Here's a link to the forum rules so your stay and everyone else's may be as pleasant as possible. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
as far as I know thats the first thread that opens up when you make a new account.
either way I don't see this as anything but an attention seeking troll.
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On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes.
Lol. No one needs adderal, you speak if it's an anti seizure medicine or insulin. That being said, it's up to the individuals playing to regulate themselves.
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On April 13 2015 12:07 Demosthenes13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes. Lol. No one needs adderal, you speak if it's an anti seizure medicine or insulin. That being said, it's up to the individuals playing to regulate themselves.
I work with a guy who has pretty severe ADHD at age 40. He has to take Adderral just to be able to do his job correctly, and even then he's still pretty twitchy. You could say he needs it in order to function as a member of society, which is pretty integral to living.
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I don't think that someone taking any drugs is going to make them beat top tier Korean pro gamers, so it doesn't matter. That being said, I play better stoned.
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if these leads to better games, i would say yes allow it
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When this thread was made, KeSPA wasn't a part of sc2. Does Kespa have any rules against drugs?
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anyone should be allowed to do anything they want to their body and if it makes them better at sports they have every right to take advantage
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On April 13 2015 13:59 brickrd wrote:
anyone should be allowed to do anything they want to their body and if it makes them better at sports they have every right to take advantage
This is an endless discussion, but no it's not fair because records are set in sports. In 10 years if some new super performance enhancing drug is released and everyone may or may not be on it old records mean nothing. It also forces people who DON'T use these drugs to then use them to compete.
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On April 13 2015 14:15 GiveMeCake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 13:59 brickrd wrote:
anyone should be allowed to do anything they want to their body and if it makes them better at sports they have every right to take advantage This is an endless discussion, but no it's not fair because records are set in sports. In 10 years if some new super performance enhancing drug is released and everyone may or may not be on it old records mean nothing. It also forces people who DON'T use these drugs to then use them to compete.
no it actually doesn't force anyone to do anything?
your argument is complete nonsense, it's like saying that modern athletes shouldn't be allowed to use current medical science to train their bodies and recover from injuries because the athletes of 50 years ago didn't have access to them. every era has its own context, the world is constantly changing and it's ludicrous to imagine that you can permanently neutralize the skill environment.
you can just as easily argue that it's "unfair" that athletes or e-athletes who grow up with a lot of money and access to coaching, equipment, etc. have an easier path to going pro, but that's life. some people are willing to make sacrifices, some people are born into a strong environment, some people don't have the motivation or don't want to take risks. there's no morality to it, it just is.
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If a minor is on said medication by instruction of parent and doctor should they be banned from esports? That is the kind of question that must be asked if a real ban was to ever actually be considered.
Poll: Do we ban Minors on Adderall by instruction of parents and doctor?No, don't ban them from esports events. (12) 67% Yes, ban them from esports events. (6) 33% 18 total votes Your vote: Do we ban Minors on Adderall by instruction of parents and doctor? (Vote): Yes, ban them from esports events.
(Vote): No, don't ban them from esports events.
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Wait is this thread becoming alive again
lol
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"giving them the ability to completely remove themselves from their surroundings and be totally focused on the game? "
I would call that concentration. It's not something you can just snap into, but it is a virtue that you should practice and it won't be a problem to get into that state of mind.
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As a studying pharmacist, I doubt they will ever put any kind of restriction or preventative steps to remove a prescribed drug such as aderol or similar from tournament play with such a questionable advantage scale. Another problem with that is the fact that it is used by a large portion of people for mental imbalance and many of them concider it a necessity to daily life.
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On April 13 2015 13:59 brickrd wrote:
anyone should be allowed to do anything they want to their body and if it makes them better at sports they have every right to take advantage
It's not about what athletes should or should not be allowed to do with their bodies. Many illegal doping measures are not illegal from a drug enforcement point of view.
In sports, ethics play a rather big role: sports competitions do not deem maximum possible performance as the highest good (that would mean allowing all ways to achieve this, including doping but also technical aids, unfair-play, etc) but rather hard work through training of body and mind (ie discipline). In this context performance loses its value if it's based on the use of doping thus the need to ban doping in the first place.
Imo, the same applies for eSports. Hard work and dedication (and of course talent) should lead to great games, not the use of drugs.
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On April 15 2015 00:59 vaderseven wrote:
If a minor is on said medication by instruction of parent and doctor should they be banned from esports? That is the kind of question that must be asked if a real ban was to ever actually be considered.
If it's legitimately prescribed, of course it should be allowed. That's open for abuse, though - I remember reading that something like 40% of the Seattle Seahawks had "diagnoses of ADD" and "prescriptions for Adderall". Hopefully eSports teams wouldn't do the same thing, but...
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On April 15 2015 01:24 GreEny K wrote:
"giving them the ability to completely remove themselves from their surroundings and be totally focused on the game? "
I would call that concentration. It's not something you can just snap into, but it is a virtue that you should practice and it won't be a problem to get into that state of mind.
Yes and there's a reason adderall is heavily abused in US colleges, especially Medical School (can't speak internationally, but I wouldn't be surprised). It's because it literally does snap you into focus (well that may be an exaggeration), it's what it's designed for after all.
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On April 15 2015 02:38 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 01:24 GreEny K wrote:
"giving them the ability to completely remove themselves from their surroundings and be totally focused on the game? "
I would call that concentration. It's not something you can just snap into, but it is a virtue that you should practice and it won't be a problem to get into that state of mind. Yes and there's a reason adderall is heavily abused in US colleges, especially Medical School (can't speak internationally, but I wouldn't be surprised). It's because it literally does snap you into focus (well that may be an exaggeration), it's what it's designed for after all.
Mm, I've taken cocaine to help me focus and stop procrastinating, and it helps me play SC2 as well. My APM goes up by like, twenty. Haha.
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What if you have trouble concentrating but also want to win? And then your doctor sez, now only take one or else you're officially game-rules cheating, and try this psilocybin at the next GSL for my new super gamer study.
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On April 15 2015 02:43 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 02:38 Wuster wrote:On April 15 2015 01:24 GreEny K wrote:
"giving them the ability to completely remove themselves from their surroundings and be totally focused on the game? "
I would call that concentration. It's not something you can just snap into, but it is a virtue that you should practice and it won't be a problem to get into that state of mind. Yes and there's a reason adderall is heavily abused in US colleges, especially Medical School (can't speak internationally, but I wouldn't be surprised). It's because it literally does snap you into focus (well that may be an exaggeration), it's what it's designed for after all. Mm, I've taken cocaine to help me focus and stop procrastinating, and it helps me play SC2 as well. My APM goes up by like, twenty. Haha.
I know of a lot of things people take to focus more and better, but cocaine sure isn't the cheapest one d:
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On April 15 2015 02:51 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 02:43 Larkin wrote:On April 15 2015 02:38 Wuster wrote:On April 15 2015 01:24 GreEny K wrote:
"giving them the ability to completely remove themselves from their surroundings and be totally focused on the game? "
I would call that concentration. It's not something you can just snap into, but it is a virtue that you should practice and it won't be a problem to get into that state of mind. Yes and there's a reason adderall is heavily abused in US colleges, especially Medical School (can't speak internationally, but I wouldn't be surprised). It's because it literally does snap you into focus (well that may be an exaggeration), it's what it's designed for after all. Mm, I've taken cocaine to help me focus and stop procrastinating, and it helps me play SC2 as well. My APM goes up by like, twenty. Haha. I know of a lot of things become take to focus more and better, but cocaine sure isn't the cheapest one d:
If you've got it, flaunt it
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On April 15 2015 02:51 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 02:43 Larkin wrote:On April 15 2015 02:38 Wuster wrote:On April 15 2015 01:24 GreEny K wrote:
"giving them the ability to completely remove themselves from their surroundings and be totally focused on the game? "
I would call that concentration. It's not something you can just snap into, but it is a virtue that you should practice and it won't be a problem to get into that state of mind. Yes and there's a reason adderall is heavily abused in US colleges, especially Medical School (can't speak internationally, but I wouldn't be surprised). It's because it literally does snap you into focus (well that may be an exaggeration), it's what it's designed for after all. Mm, I've taken cocaine to help me focus and stop procrastinating, and it helps me play SC2 as well. My APM goes up by like, twenty. Haha. I know of a lot of things become take to focus more and better, but cocaine sure isn't the cheapest one d:
The other options don't quite feel so good. Haha.
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Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc.
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Foreigners should be allowed to take them, Koreans shouldnt.
That might make Blizzcon more interesting
take every opportunity you have 
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On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc.
I don't know how true the above post is, but I'm not entirely sure I'm following you. As someone who's been prescribed Adderall for many years, I can say that a majority of users don't actually go pass the dosage the doctor gives you. When I was a child starting Adderall, they gave me 5mg doses which I was required to take 2 a day (one in the morning and one in the evening). Now that I'm over 21, I've only had to take 1 dose of a 15mg pill (once a day). These doses haven't done much physiological edits towards me.
Amphetamine salts are essentially just controlled meth. So if someone is going to quadruple the doses, of course there are negatives to that. You can't assume all of us are trying to "performance enhance" or "abuse drugs" because of your anecdotal evidences. No offense, but your friends sound like they need some serious psychiatric help regarding abuse.
Edit: honestly, there's a big difference between "Adderall as a mental enhancement" vs "steroids as a physical enhancement." One, people bypass steroids by using growth hormones. Two, people who are legitimately prescribed Adderall will often tell you they aren't gaining more focus or concentration.
If anyone knows of the dirt bike racer James Stewart, he was accused of using Adderall to give him a mental edge on his dirt bike races. The spoiler will show a link to what I'm referring to.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-supercross-stewart-suspension-20141217-story.html
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On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc.
Same with any drug, really. It's great, but you need to be careful with it and know your limits and when to cut back. It's especially true for a lot of prescription drugs as your tolerance to them builds very quickly - that's why you see a lot of people hooked on things like aderall and ritalin, but also oxys and benzos.
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On April 15 2015 03:32 KalWarkov wrote:Foreigners should be allowed to take them, Koreans shouldnt. That might make Blizzcon more interesting take every opportunity you have
That's like chrono boosting foreigners lol.
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On April 15 2015 03:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc. I don't know how true the above post is, but I'm not entirely sure I'm following you. As someone who's been prescribed Adderall for many years, I can say that a majority of users don't actually go pass the dosage the doctor gives you. When I was a child starting Adderall, they gave me 5mg doses which I was required to take 2 a day (one in the morning and one in the evening). Now that I'm over 21, I've only had to take 1 dose of a 15mg pill (once a day). These doses haven't done much physiological edits towards me. Amphetamine salts are essentially just controlled meth. So if someone is going to quadruple the doses, of course there are negatives to that. You can't assume all of us are trying to "performance enhance" or "abuse drugs" because of your anecdotal evidences. No offense, but your friends sound like they need some serious psychiatric help regarding abuse. Edit: honestly, there's a big difference between "Adderall as a mental enhancement" vs "steroids as a physical enhancement." One, people bypass steroids by using growth hormones. Two, people who are legitimately prescribed Adderall will often tell you they aren't gaining more focus or concentration. If anyone knows of the dirt bike racer James Stewart, he was accused of using Adderall to give him a mental edge on his dirt bike races. The spoiler will show a link to what I'm referring to. + Show Spoiler +http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-supercross-stewart-suspension-20141217-story.html
Yes, the age old argument that it helps people with ADD. There are many issues with that line of thought.
First, adderall is probably the most over prescribed drug in NA. The drug companies are pushing it like crazy. If you ask me, they are no different than the crack dealers selling on the corner. Not only is it handed out like candy, the doses are insane. It's not uncommon to get 2 20mg doses per day or higher. Your dose is mild in comparison.
Second, even people who legitametely need the drug (probably 1% or less of those it is prescribed to) abuse the drug. Just search "adderall" on google and you'll find multiple forums with prescribed users describing abuse. It's not just my experience. It's rampant abuse and understandably so. How can you expect people to resist the urge to overdose when it's one of the most addictive drugs out there? (edit) After abusing it for a few months, it could potentially take years for your brain chemistry to revert to feeling "normal."
I've heard the "it doesn't affect ppl with add" too. Honestly, believe it when I see it. Sure, it might only be my experience, but seems to affect everyone the same.
It's all part of the new "meta" in psychiatry and our society in general, where every problem you have can be cured by a pill. Not just adderall, but anti-depresants are at an all time high in prescriptions.
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On April 15 2015 04:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 03:32 KalWarkov wrote:Foreigners should be allowed to take them, Koreans shouldnt. That might make Blizzcon more interesting take every opportunity you have That's like chrono boosting foreigners lol.
All foreigners should have khaydarin amulet when the game start
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On April 15 2015 05:03 SmoKim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 04:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 15 2015 03:32 KalWarkov wrote:Foreigners should be allowed to take them, Koreans shouldnt. That might make Blizzcon more interesting take every opportunity you have That's like chrono boosting foreigners lol. All foreigners should have khaydarin amulet when the game start
What if they do, but their only ability is to suck?
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On April 15 2015 02:34 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 13:59 brickrd wrote:
anyone should be allowed to do anything they want to their body and if it makes them better at sports they have every right to take advantage It's not about what athletes should or should not be allowed to do with their bodies. Many illegal doping measures are not illegal from a drug enforcement point of view. In sports, ethics play a rather big role: sports competitions do not deem maximum possible performance as the highest good (that would mean allowing all ways to achieve this, including doping but also technical aids, unfair-play, etc) but rather hard work through training of body and mind (ie discipline). In this context performance loses its value if it's based on the use of doping thus the need to ban doping in the first place. Imo, the same applies for eSports. Hard work and dedication (and of course talent) should lead to great games, not the use of drugs.
i don't understand the distinction you're drawing between "what should be allowed" and "ethics." is the point of ethics not what should and shouldn't be allowed?
you say people should only benefit from hard work and dedication, but now you're right back to my point about people who are born privileged with a lot of money, supportive parents and free time to burn. that's not "fair" to someone who grows up poor and has to work part-time to support their family but might have a higher skill upside than some other player. so what? life isn't fair and circumstances aren't the same for everyone.
to me, anyway, using a substance to increase your performance is indeed dedication. you're taking a step (potentially with a downside or risk, although that isn't the entire point) in order to make gains in your field. who cares if it's "easier" than practicing for 900 hours? what you call easy i call efficient. categorizing one thing as "training" and another as a "shortcut" is meaningless elitism in my eyes. if i invent a new natural exercise regimen that helps pro athletes get buffer more quickly, should they spurn it just because it's "easier"? it's totally arbitrary.
hell, you could even say that a player who practices for many hours a day and loses sleep and socialization over it is doing something harmful and that it's unfair to expect other players to do the same thing to achieve success. how is it that taking adderall creates an unfair standard of risk and sacrifice but obsessing over a video game to the point of isolation and sleep deprivation doesn't?
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On April 15 2015 04:48 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 03:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc. I don't know how true the above post is, but I'm not entirely sure I'm following you. As someone who's been prescribed Adderall for many years, I can say that a majority of users don't actually go pass the dosage the doctor gives you. When I was a child starting Adderall, they gave me 5mg doses which I was required to take 2 a day (one in the morning and one in the evening). Now that I'm over 21, I've only had to take 1 dose of a 15mg pill (once a day). These doses haven't done much physiological edits towards me. Amphetamine salts are essentially just controlled meth. So if someone is going to quadruple the doses, of course there are negatives to that. You can't assume all of us are trying to "performance enhance" or "abuse drugs" because of your anecdotal evidences. No offense, but your friends sound like they need some serious psychiatric help regarding abuse. Edit: honestly, there's a big difference between "Adderall as a mental enhancement" vs "steroids as a physical enhancement." One, people bypass steroids by using growth hormones. Two, people who are legitimately prescribed Adderall will often tell you they aren't gaining more focus or concentration. If anyone knows of the dirt bike racer James Stewart, he was accused of using Adderall to give him a mental edge on his dirt bike races. The spoiler will show a link to what I'm referring to. + Show Spoiler +http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-supercross-stewart-suspension-20141217-story.html Yes, the age old argument that it helps people with ADD. There are many issues with that line of thought. First, adderall is probably the most over prescribed drug in NA. The drug companies are pushing it like crazy. If you ask me, they are no different than the crack dealers selling on the corner. Not only is it handed out like candy, the doses are insane. It's not uncommon to get 2 20mg doses per day or higher. Your dose is mild in comparison. Second, even people who legitametely need the drug (probably 1% or less of those it is prescribed to) abuse the drug. Just search "adderall" on google and you'll find multiple forums with prescribed users describing abuse. It's not just my experience. It's rampant abuse and understandably so. How can you expect people to resist the urge to overdose when it's one of the most addictive drugs out there? (edit) After abusing it for a few months, it could potentially take years for your brain chemistry to revert to feeling "normal." I've heard the "it doesn't affect ppl with add" too. Honestly, believe it when I see it. Sure, it might only be my experience, but seems to affect everyone the same. It's all part of the new "meta" in psychiatry and our society in general, where every problem you have can be cured by a pill. Not just adderall, but anti-depresants are at an all time high in prescriptions.
I'm not sure where your illusion towards adderall is, but I can't find a site claiming it's one of the most prescribed drugs in the united states. In fact, neither WebMD nor medscape mention it within their reviews of prescribed drugs. So I'm going to need a source or two for you to back that claim up. However, psychiatric wise, it is on a list on a 2013 list from psych central.
Secondly, searching adderall on google doesn't link me to any boards showing abuse. In fact, it shows me multiple links from people trying to shill for the substance. I'm not saying abuse isn't likely like with other drugs controlled substances. However, to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous.
While there are misdiagnoses and people who front having symptoms of ADHD, due to it lacking a standardized method of testing, there are psychiatrists and neurologists already who do their best to watch out for people faking symptoms. And other than anecdotal claims, there's no true way of knowing if a person benefits from using amphetamine salts. However, I can say that people have at least benefited from feeling their smarter or feeling they can study more strongly. That alone is why the drug has been getting so much attention.
Finally, in regards towards the argument of it actually enhancing one's performance. Realistically, I would flat out say that isn't entirely true. Ginseng is technically a stimulant as well. Is that going to be an argument towards Asians and their ability to play games better? Stimulants in general, like coffee, are what's causing people to "study" or concentrate on things they like to do.
Medscape top 100 most prescribed drugs: + Show Spoiler +http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/829246
Psychcentral: + Show Spoiler +
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I'd like to present my newest performance enhancing drug....
Koreaniphonol
With Koreaniphonol you will be able to play just like a top tier Korean Pro gamer. Ever wanted to be able to control your speedlings like Life? Split your marines like Happy? Beat Mech and or Skytoss as Zerg? Now you Can! With Koreaniphonol.
Koreaniphonol may result in headaches, loss of bladder control, loss of vision, increase of APM to the point where it hurts, unable to speak proper English to friends anymore(Broken English or konglish only), being unable to breath , and also and or death.
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On April 15 2015 06:44 Shin_Gouki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 04:48 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 03:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc. I don't know how true the above post is, but I'm not entirely sure I'm following you. As someone who's been prescribed Adderall for many years, I can say that a majority of users don't actually go pass the dosage the doctor gives you. When I was a child starting Adderall, they gave me 5mg doses which I was required to take 2 a day (one in the morning and one in the evening). Now that I'm over 21, I've only had to take 1 dose of a 15mg pill (once a day). These doses haven't done much physiological edits towards me. Amphetamine salts are essentially just controlled meth. So if someone is going to quadruple the doses, of course there are negatives to that. You can't assume all of us are trying to "performance enhance" or "abuse drugs" because of your anecdotal evidences. No offense, but your friends sound like they need some serious psychiatric help regarding abuse. Edit: honestly, there's a big difference between "Adderall as a mental enhancement" vs "steroids as a physical enhancement." One, people bypass steroids by using growth hormones. Two, people who are legitimately prescribed Adderall will often tell you they aren't gaining more focus or concentration. If anyone knows of the dirt bike racer James Stewart, he was accused of using Adderall to give him a mental edge on his dirt bike races. The spoiler will show a link to what I'm referring to. + Show Spoiler +http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-supercross-stewart-suspension-20141217-story.html Yes, the age old argument that it helps people with ADD. There are many issues with that line of thought. First, adderall is probably the most over prescribed drug in NA. The drug companies are pushing it like crazy. If you ask me, they are no different than the crack dealers selling on the corner. Not only is it handed out like candy, the doses are insane. It's not uncommon to get 2 20mg doses per day or higher. Your dose is mild in comparison. Second, even people who legitametely need the drug (probably 1% or less of those it is prescribed to) abuse the drug. Just search "adderall" on google and you'll find multiple forums with prescribed users describing abuse. It's not just my experience. It's rampant abuse and understandably so. How can you expect people to resist the urge to overdose when it's one of the most addictive drugs out there? (edit) After abusing it for a few months, it could potentially take years for your brain chemistry to revert to feeling "normal." I've heard the "it doesn't affect ppl with add" too. Honestly, believe it when I see it. Sure, it might only be my experience, but seems to affect everyone the same. It's all part of the new "meta" in psychiatry and our society in general, where every problem you have can be cured by a pill. Not just adderall, but anti-depresants are at an all time high in prescriptions. I'm not sure where your illusion towards adderall is, but I can't find a site claiming it's one of the most prescribed drugs in the united states. In fact, neither WebMD nor medscape mention it within their reviews of prescribed drugs. So I'm going to need a source or two for you to back that claim up. However, psychiatric wise, it is on a list on a 2013 list from psych central. Secondly, searching adderall on google doesn't link me to any boards showing abuse. In fact, it shows me multiple links from people trying to shill for the substance. I'm not saying abuse isn't likely like with other drugs controlled substances. However, to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous. While there are misdiagnoses and people who front having symptoms of ADHD, due to it lacking a standardized method of testing, there are psychiatrists and neurologists already who do their best to watch out for people faking symptoms. And other than anecdotal claims, there's no true way of knowing if a person benefits from using amphetamine salts. However, I can say that people have at least benefited from feeling their smarter or feeling they can study more strongly. That alone is why the drug has been getting so much attention. Finally, in regards towards the argument of it actually enhancing one's performance. Realistically, I would flat out say that isn't entirely true. Ginseng is technically a stimulant as well. Is that going to be an argument towards Asians and their ability to play games better? Stimulants in general, like coffee, are what's causing people to "study" or concentrate on things they like to do. Medscape top 100 most prescribed drugs: + Show Spoiler +http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/829246 Psychcentral: + Show Spoiler +
I said OVERprescribed, not most prescribed. Though the link that you posted shows it among the most prescribed AND increasing at a high rate. Is this because more people have add? Is it because we are now more capable at diagnosing it? I would say no.
You can't find any forums showing abuse by people PRESCRIBED adderall? What? Try being the least bit creative with your searches.
http://www.xojane.com/issues/adderall-is-the-best-and-worst-thing-ever
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/634642-How-much-Adderall-do-you-take
Here's an article from the Wall Street Journal. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444301704577631591596516110
" to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous."
It's not preposterous at all. If you had a bag of cocaine in your room and you were only supposed to sniff .1 gram per day, how long before you got curious and sniffed half the bag? Especially when your doctor tells you it's okay. Not to mention, Adderall is cheap as fuck compared to Cocaine. Actually, funnily enough, you can snort Adderall.
The "tests" for prescribing Adderall to people are useless. The only important factor is whether you want it or not. I personally know 5 people who got it and none of them had to do anything special.
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On April 15 2015 08:03 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 06:44 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 04:48 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 03:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc. I don't know how true the above post is, but I'm not entirely sure I'm following you. As someone who's been prescribed Adderall for many years, I can say that a majority of users don't actually go pass the dosage the doctor gives you. When I was a child starting Adderall, they gave me 5mg doses which I was required to take 2 a day (one in the morning and one in the evening). Now that I'm over 21, I've only had to take 1 dose of a 15mg pill (once a day). These doses haven't done much physiological edits towards me. Amphetamine salts are essentially just controlled meth. So if someone is going to quadruple the doses, of course there are negatives to that. You can't assume all of us are trying to "performance enhance" or "abuse drugs" because of your anecdotal evidences. No offense, but your friends sound like they need some serious psychiatric help regarding abuse. Edit: honestly, there's a big difference between "Adderall as a mental enhancement" vs "steroids as a physical enhancement." One, people bypass steroids by using growth hormones. Two, people who are legitimately prescribed Adderall will often tell you they aren't gaining more focus or concentration. If anyone knows of the dirt bike racer James Stewart, he was accused of using Adderall to give him a mental edge on his dirt bike races. The spoiler will show a link to what I'm referring to. + Show Spoiler +http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-supercross-stewart-suspension-20141217-story.html Yes, the age old argument that it helps people with ADD. There are many issues with that line of thought. First, adderall is probably the most over prescribed drug in NA. The drug companies are pushing it like crazy. If you ask me, they are no different than the crack dealers selling on the corner. Not only is it handed out like candy, the doses are insane. It's not uncommon to get 2 20mg doses per day or higher. Your dose is mild in comparison. Second, even people who legitametely need the drug (probably 1% or less of those it is prescribed to) abuse the drug. Just search "adderall" on google and you'll find multiple forums with prescribed users describing abuse. It's not just my experience. It's rampant abuse and understandably so. How can you expect people to resist the urge to overdose when it's one of the most addictive drugs out there? (edit) After abusing it for a few months, it could potentially take years for your brain chemistry to revert to feeling "normal." I've heard the "it doesn't affect ppl with add" too. Honestly, believe it when I see it. Sure, it might only be my experience, but seems to affect everyone the same. It's all part of the new "meta" in psychiatry and our society in general, where every problem you have can be cured by a pill. Not just adderall, but anti-depresants are at an all time high in prescriptions. I'm not sure where your illusion towards adderall is, but I can't find a site claiming it's one of the most prescribed drugs in the united states. In fact, neither WebMD nor medscape mention it within their reviews of prescribed drugs. So I'm going to need a source or two for you to back that claim up. However, psychiatric wise, it is on a list on a 2013 list from psych central. Secondly, searching adderall on google doesn't link me to any boards showing abuse. In fact, it shows me multiple links from people trying to shill for the substance. I'm not saying abuse isn't likely like with other drugs controlled substances. However, to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous. While there are misdiagnoses and people who front having symptoms of ADHD, due to it lacking a standardized method of testing, there are psychiatrists and neurologists already who do their best to watch out for people faking symptoms. And other than anecdotal claims, there's no true way of knowing if a person benefits from using amphetamine salts. However, I can say that people have at least benefited from feeling their smarter or feeling they can study more strongly. That alone is why the drug has been getting so much attention. Finally, in regards towards the argument of it actually enhancing one's performance. Realistically, I would flat out say that isn't entirely true. Ginseng is technically a stimulant as well. Is that going to be an argument towards Asians and their ability to play games better? Stimulants in general, like coffee, are what's causing people to "study" or concentrate on things they like to do. Medscape top 100 most prescribed drugs: + Show Spoiler +http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/829246 Psychcentral: + Show Spoiler + I said OVERprescribed, not most prescribed. Though the link that you posted shows it among the most prescribed AND increasing at a high rate. Is this because more people have add? Is it because we are now more capable at diagnosing it? I would say no. You can't find any forums showing abuse by people PRESCRIBED adderall? What? Try being the least bit creative with your searches. http://www.xojane.com/issues/adderall-is-the-best-and-worst-thing-everhttp://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/634642-How-much-Adderall-do-you-takeHere's an article from the Wall Street Journal. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444301704577631591596516110" to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous." It's not preposterous at all. If you had a bag of cocaine in your room and you were only supposed to sniff .1 gram per day, how long before you got curious and sniffed half the bag? Especially when your doctor tells you it's okay. Not to mention, Adderall is cheap as fuck compared to Cocaine. Actually, funnily enough, you can snort Adderall. The "tests" for prescribing Adderall to people are useless. The only important factor is whether you want it or not. I personally know 5 people who got it and none of them had to do anything special.
Are you seriously going to argue with me using bluelight forums? You tell me to be creative, but you go to one of the most ridiculous websites. Bluelight is a typical website used, almost like erowid really, to discuss over-dosages or even attempts to retrieve substances when one cannot get them via a medical professional.
The over-prescription (which I originally misread, and for that, I apologize) lies within parents being unaware of ADHD and simply listening to their doctor. Of course, as a consequence, we're going to see an increase of children getting adderall or ritalin prescribed. I highly doubt my mother really knew what the kaiser psychiatrist was talking about towards "ADHD," like a majority of other parents. However, this still doesn't equate to people turning to and abusing adderall. You're running under the assumption that people are overly curious and will step out of bounds from what their doctor tells them. And you're also going to argue that doctors INSIST the patient further their dosage or even take DOUBLE the amount? What sort of allegation is that. Are you even aware of the potential consequences of the DSM regarding misdiagnosis? I highly doubt a doctor is going to put his license on the line in order for their patients to enjoy themselves.
That cocaine reference is also laughable. This is some serious "nanny state-esque" sort of statement. If I give a person over 160mgs of caffeine a day, how much longer will the person attempt to do 320 mgs? Or even boost themselves to caffeine pills. If a person naturally suffers from addictive properties, he or she is going to abuse. That doesn't relate to the rest of the U.S. population.
Not to mention, when it comes to adults suffering ADHD symptoms, doctors are even more cautious towards giving out the drug. Usually, they will start with an SSRI before considering a psycho-stimulant. Especially since adult ADHD is expected to be seen my medical records which showed you had those similarities as a child. ADHD isn't something that just appears out of nowhere. Even during TBIs, doctor's won't be quick to medicate the patient with psycho-stimulants.
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On April 15 2015 08:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 08:03 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 06:44 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 04:48 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 03:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc. I don't know how true the above post is, but I'm not entirely sure I'm following you. As someone who's been prescribed Adderall for many years, I can say that a majority of users don't actually go pass the dosage the doctor gives you. When I was a child starting Adderall, they gave me 5mg doses which I was required to take 2 a day (one in the morning and one in the evening). Now that I'm over 21, I've only had to take 1 dose of a 15mg pill (once a day). These doses haven't done much physiological edits towards me. Amphetamine salts are essentially just controlled meth. So if someone is going to quadruple the doses, of course there are negatives to that. You can't assume all of us are trying to "performance enhance" or "abuse drugs" because of your anecdotal evidences. No offense, but your friends sound like they need some serious psychiatric help regarding abuse. Edit: honestly, there's a big difference between "Adderall as a mental enhancement" vs "steroids as a physical enhancement." One, people bypass steroids by using growth hormones. Two, people who are legitimately prescribed Adderall will often tell you they aren't gaining more focus or concentration. If anyone knows of the dirt bike racer James Stewart, he was accused of using Adderall to give him a mental edge on his dirt bike races. The spoiler will show a link to what I'm referring to. + Show Spoiler +http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-supercross-stewart-suspension-20141217-story.html Yes, the age old argument that it helps people with ADD. There are many issues with that line of thought. First, adderall is probably the most over prescribed drug in NA. The drug companies are pushing it like crazy. If you ask me, they are no different than the crack dealers selling on the corner. Not only is it handed out like candy, the doses are insane. It's not uncommon to get 2 20mg doses per day or higher. Your dose is mild in comparison. Second, even people who legitametely need the drug (probably 1% or less of those it is prescribed to) abuse the drug. Just search "adderall" on google and you'll find multiple forums with prescribed users describing abuse. It's not just my experience. It's rampant abuse and understandably so. How can you expect people to resist the urge to overdose when it's one of the most addictive drugs out there? (edit) After abusing it for a few months, it could potentially take years for your brain chemistry to revert to feeling "normal." I've heard the "it doesn't affect ppl with add" too. Honestly, believe it when I see it. Sure, it might only be my experience, but seems to affect everyone the same. It's all part of the new "meta" in psychiatry and our society in general, where every problem you have can be cured by a pill. Not just adderall, but anti-depresants are at an all time high in prescriptions. I'm not sure where your illusion towards adderall is, but I can't find a site claiming it's one of the most prescribed drugs in the united states. In fact, neither WebMD nor medscape mention it within their reviews of prescribed drugs. So I'm going to need a source or two for you to back that claim up. However, psychiatric wise, it is on a list on a 2013 list from psych central. Secondly, searching adderall on google doesn't link me to any boards showing abuse. In fact, it shows me multiple links from people trying to shill for the substance. I'm not saying abuse isn't likely like with other drugs controlled substances. However, to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous. While there are misdiagnoses and people who front having symptoms of ADHD, due to it lacking a standardized method of testing, there are psychiatrists and neurologists already who do their best to watch out for people faking symptoms. And other than anecdotal claims, there's no true way of knowing if a person benefits from using amphetamine salts. However, I can say that people have at least benefited from feeling their smarter or feeling they can study more strongly. That alone is why the drug has been getting so much attention. Finally, in regards towards the argument of it actually enhancing one's performance. Realistically, I would flat out say that isn't entirely true. Ginseng is technically a stimulant as well. Is that going to be an argument towards Asians and their ability to play games better? Stimulants in general, like coffee, are what's causing people to "study" or concentrate on things they like to do. Medscape top 100 most prescribed drugs: + Show Spoiler +http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/829246 Psychcentral: + Show Spoiler + I said OVERprescribed, not most prescribed. Though the link that you posted shows it among the most prescribed AND increasing at a high rate. Is this because more people have add? Is it because we are now more capable at diagnosing it? I would say no. You can't find any forums showing abuse by people PRESCRIBED adderall? What? Try being the least bit creative with your searches. http://www.xojane.com/issues/adderall-is-the-best-and-worst-thing-everhttp://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/634642-How-much-Adderall-do-you-takeHere's an article from the Wall Street Journal. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444301704577631591596516110" to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous." It's not preposterous at all. If you had a bag of cocaine in your room and you were only supposed to sniff .1 gram per day, how long before you got curious and sniffed half the bag? Especially when your doctor tells you it's okay. Not to mention, Adderall is cheap as fuck compared to Cocaine. Actually, funnily enough, you can snort Adderall. The "tests" for prescribing Adderall to people are useless. The only important factor is whether you want it or not. I personally know 5 people who got it and none of them had to do anything special. Are you seriously going to argue with me using bluelight forums? You tell me to be creative, but you go to one of the most ridiculous websites. Bluelight is a typical website used, almost like erowid really, to discuss over-dosages or even attempts to retrieve substances when one cannot get them via a medical professional. The over-prescription (which I originally misread, and for that, I apologize) lies within parents being unaware of ADHD and simply listening to their doctor. Of course, as a consequence, we're going to see an increase of children getting adderall or ritalin prescribed. I highly doubt my mother really knew what the kaiser psychiatrist was talking about towards "ADHD," like a majority of other parents. However, this still doesn't equate to people turning to and abusing adderall. You're running under the assumption that people are overly curious and will step out of bounds from what their doctor tells them. And you're also going to argue that doctors INSIST the patient further their dosage or even take DOUBLE the amount? What sort of allegation is that. Are you even aware of the potential consequences of the DSM regarding misdiagnosis? I highly doubt a doctor is going to put his license on the line in order for their patients to enjoy themselves. That cocaine reference is also laughable. This is some serious "nanny state-esque" sort of statement. If I give a person over 160mgs of caffeine a day, how much longer will the person attempt to do 320 mgs? Or even boost themselves to caffeine pills. If a person naturally suffers from addictive properties, he or she is going to abuse. That doesn't relate to the rest of the U.S. population. Not to mention, when it comes to adults suffering ADHD symptoms, doctors are even more cautious towards giving out the drug. Usually, they will start with an SSRI before considering a psycho-stimulant. Especially since adult ADHD is expected to be seen my medical records which showed you had those similarities as a child. ADHD isn't something that just appears out of nowhere. Even during TBIs, doctor's won't be quick to medicate the patient with psycho-stimulants.
I'm not using the forums as evidence of some scientific phenomenon. I'm using it as evidence of rampant abuse of Adderall by prescribed users.
"The over-prescription (which I originally misread, and for that, I apologize) lies within parents being unaware of ADHD and simply listening to their doctor"
I don't believe so. It's all about the $$$ i.e. sales of the product. More doctors prescribe adderall, more adderall is sold. It also helps that's it's a really popular drug.
Caffeine is not in the same category as Cocaine or Adderall. It's much easier to become addicted to adderall. I agree people with addictive personalities are more likely to become addicted, but that doesn't mean normal people will not become addicted as well. That's the nature of hardcore drugs like Meth, Heroine, Cocaine, and Adderall. They're addictive to everyone.
Anyway, are you one of the people who supposedly doesn't feel the affects from Adderall because you have ADHD? If so, please take 30 mg, then 60 mg the next day and report back. Been wondering about this for years.
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On April 15 2015 08:52 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 08:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 08:03 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 06:44 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 04:48 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 03:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc. I don't know how true the above post is, but I'm not entirely sure I'm following you. As someone who's been prescribed Adderall for many years, I can say that a majority of users don't actually go pass the dosage the doctor gives you. When I was a child starting Adderall, they gave me 5mg doses which I was required to take 2 a day (one in the morning and one in the evening). Now that I'm over 21, I've only had to take 1 dose of a 15mg pill (once a day). These doses haven't done much physiological edits towards me. Amphetamine salts are essentially just controlled meth. So if someone is going to quadruple the doses, of course there are negatives to that. You can't assume all of us are trying to "performance enhance" or "abuse drugs" because of your anecdotal evidences. No offense, but your friends sound like they need some serious psychiatric help regarding abuse. Edit: honestly, there's a big difference between "Adderall as a mental enhancement" vs "steroids as a physical enhancement." One, people bypass steroids by using growth hormones. Two, people who are legitimately prescribed Adderall will often tell you they aren't gaining more focus or concentration. If anyone knows of the dirt bike racer James Stewart, he was accused of using Adderall to give him a mental edge on his dirt bike races. The spoiler will show a link to what I'm referring to. + Show Spoiler +http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-supercross-stewart-suspension-20141217-story.html Yes, the age old argument that it helps people with ADD. There are many issues with that line of thought. First, adderall is probably the most over prescribed drug in NA. The drug companies are pushing it like crazy. If you ask me, they are no different than the crack dealers selling on the corner. Not only is it handed out like candy, the doses are insane. It's not uncommon to get 2 20mg doses per day or higher. Your dose is mild in comparison. Second, even people who legitametely need the drug (probably 1% or less of those it is prescribed to) abuse the drug. Just search "adderall" on google and you'll find multiple forums with prescribed users describing abuse. It's not just my experience. It's rampant abuse and understandably so. How can you expect people to resist the urge to overdose when it's one of the most addictive drugs out there? (edit) After abusing it for a few months, it could potentially take years for your brain chemistry to revert to feeling "normal." I've heard the "it doesn't affect ppl with add" too. Honestly, believe it when I see it. Sure, it might only be my experience, but seems to affect everyone the same. It's all part of the new "meta" in psychiatry and our society in general, where every problem you have can be cured by a pill. Not just adderall, but anti-depresants are at an all time high in prescriptions. I'm not sure where your illusion towards adderall is, but I can't find a site claiming it's one of the most prescribed drugs in the united states. In fact, neither WebMD nor medscape mention it within their reviews of prescribed drugs. So I'm going to need a source or two for you to back that claim up. However, psychiatric wise, it is on a list on a 2013 list from psych central. Secondly, searching adderall on google doesn't link me to any boards showing abuse. In fact, it shows me multiple links from people trying to shill for the substance. I'm not saying abuse isn't likely like with other drugs controlled substances. However, to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous. While there are misdiagnoses and people who front having symptoms of ADHD, due to it lacking a standardized method of testing, there are psychiatrists and neurologists already who do their best to watch out for people faking symptoms. And other than anecdotal claims, there's no true way of knowing if a person benefits from using amphetamine salts. However, I can say that people have at least benefited from feeling their smarter or feeling they can study more strongly. That alone is why the drug has been getting so much attention. Finally, in regards towards the argument of it actually enhancing one's performance. Realistically, I would flat out say that isn't entirely true. Ginseng is technically a stimulant as well. Is that going to be an argument towards Asians and their ability to play games better? Stimulants in general, like coffee, are what's causing people to "study" or concentrate on things they like to do. Medscape top 100 most prescribed drugs: + Show Spoiler +http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/829246 Psychcentral: + Show Spoiler + I said OVERprescribed, not most prescribed. Though the link that you posted shows it among the most prescribed AND increasing at a high rate. Is this because more people have add? Is it because we are now more capable at diagnosing it? I would say no. You can't find any forums showing abuse by people PRESCRIBED adderall? What? Try being the least bit creative with your searches. http://www.xojane.com/issues/adderall-is-the-best-and-worst-thing-everhttp://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/634642-How-much-Adderall-do-you-takeHere's an article from the Wall Street Journal. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444301704577631591596516110" to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous." It's not preposterous at all. If you had a bag of cocaine in your room and you were only supposed to sniff .1 gram per day, how long before you got curious and sniffed half the bag? Especially when your doctor tells you it's okay. Not to mention, Adderall is cheap as fuck compared to Cocaine. Actually, funnily enough, you can snort Adderall. The "tests" for prescribing Adderall to people are useless. The only important factor is whether you want it or not. I personally know 5 people who got it and none of them had to do anything special. Are you seriously going to argue with me using bluelight forums? You tell me to be creative, but you go to one of the most ridiculous websites. Bluelight is a typical website used, almost like erowid really, to discuss over-dosages or even attempts to retrieve substances when one cannot get them via a medical professional. The over-prescription (which I originally misread, and for that, I apologize) lies within parents being unaware of ADHD and simply listening to their doctor. Of course, as a consequence, we're going to see an increase of children getting adderall or ritalin prescribed. I highly doubt my mother really knew what the kaiser psychiatrist was talking about towards "ADHD," like a majority of other parents. However, this still doesn't equate to people turning to and abusing adderall. You're running under the assumption that people are overly curious and will step out of bounds from what their doctor tells them. And you're also going to argue that doctors INSIST the patient further their dosage or even take DOUBLE the amount? What sort of allegation is that. Are you even aware of the potential consequences of the DSM regarding misdiagnosis? I highly doubt a doctor is going to put his license on the line in order for their patients to enjoy themselves. That cocaine reference is also laughable. This is some serious "nanny state-esque" sort of statement. If I give a person over 160mgs of caffeine a day, how much longer will the person attempt to do 320 mgs? Or even boost themselves to caffeine pills. If a person naturally suffers from addictive properties, he or she is going to abuse. That doesn't relate to the rest of the U.S. population. Not to mention, when it comes to adults suffering ADHD symptoms, doctors are even more cautious towards giving out the drug. Usually, they will start with an SSRI before considering a psycho-stimulant. Especially since adult ADHD is expected to be seen my medical records which showed you had those similarities as a child. ADHD isn't something that just appears out of nowhere. Even during TBIs, doctor's won't be quick to medicate the patient with psycho-stimulants. I'm not using the forums as evidence of some scientific phenomenon. I'm using it as evidence of rampant abuse of Adderall by prescribed users. "The over-prescription (which I originally misread, and for that, I apologize) lies within parents being unaware of ADHD and simply listening to their doctor" I don't believe so. It's all about the $$$ i.e. sales of the product. More doctors prescribe adderall, more adderall is sold. It also helps that's it's a really popular drug. Caffeine is not in the same category as Cocaine or Adderall. It's much easier to become addicted to adderall. I agree people with addictive personalities are more likely to become addicted, but that doesn't mean normal people will not become addicted as well. That's the nature of hardcore drugs like Meth, Heroine, Cocaine, and Adderall. They're addictive to everyone. Anyway, are you one of the people who supposedly doesn't feel the affects from Adderall because you have ADHD? If so, please take 30 mg, then 60 mg the next day and report back. Been wondering about this for years.
Caffeine is almost exactly the the same. The difference lies in potency, which of course it's way less than a direct psycho-active stimulant. That's why it isn't a scheduled drug. addiction is addiction regardless of how you wish to look at it. A man or woman could snort heroine habitually without actually being addicted in fact.
Your viewpoint towards medical professionals is something I can't contest. If you believe it's for money, I can't say my trust towards them is superior to your distrust. However, that still won't answer the question which is being proposed: are psycho-active stimulants considered mental enhancements. In some cases they are, but not what's currently being considered. If you take adderall, you aren't going to suddenly fly to GM from bronze. Many reports with share this.
Even if I was stupid enough to double or triple my dosage, winning an argument wouldn't be the reason. Idk what you're even attempting to prove with that.
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On April 15 2015 09:07 Shin_Gouki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 08:52 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 08:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 08:03 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 06:44 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 04:48 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 15 2015 03:39 Shin_Gouki wrote:On April 15 2015 03:22 TRaFFiC wrote:
Pretty much all my friends in the states have Adderall prescriptions and none of them have ADD. Normally, I'm pro legalization of all drugs, but in the case of adderall it is extremely addictive and horrible for your health when abused. Two of my friend are/were addicted. They take up to 160 mg at a time just to reach the same high they did when they started on 30s.
It's an amazing drug to take a few times a year. Gives incredible euphoria, concentration, and more importantly MOTIVATION to do anything. But... it's not good for long term practice or studying since you crash for 24 hours after using (time which could've been spent working).
It could be good for a 1 day tournament, though the signs of use are apparent if you look for them. Restlessness, twitching, rubbing lips and tongue, talking fast etc. I don't know how true the above post is, but I'm not entirely sure I'm following you. As someone who's been prescribed Adderall for many years, I can say that a majority of users don't actually go pass the dosage the doctor gives you. When I was a child starting Adderall, they gave me 5mg doses which I was required to take 2 a day (one in the morning and one in the evening). Now that I'm over 21, I've only had to take 1 dose of a 15mg pill (once a day). These doses haven't done much physiological edits towards me. Amphetamine salts are essentially just controlled meth. So if someone is going to quadruple the doses, of course there are negatives to that. You can't assume all of us are trying to "performance enhance" or "abuse drugs" because of your anecdotal evidences. No offense, but your friends sound like they need some serious psychiatric help regarding abuse. Edit: honestly, there's a big difference between "Adderall as a mental enhancement" vs "steroids as a physical enhancement." One, people bypass steroids by using growth hormones. Two, people who are legitimately prescribed Adderall will often tell you they aren't gaining more focus or concentration. If anyone knows of the dirt bike racer James Stewart, he was accused of using Adderall to give him a mental edge on his dirt bike races. The spoiler will show a link to what I'm referring to. + Show Spoiler +http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-supercross-stewart-suspension-20141217-story.html Yes, the age old argument that it helps people with ADD. There are many issues with that line of thought. First, adderall is probably the most over prescribed drug in NA. The drug companies are pushing it like crazy. If you ask me, they are no different than the crack dealers selling on the corner. Not only is it handed out like candy, the doses are insane. It's not uncommon to get 2 20mg doses per day or higher. Your dose is mild in comparison. Second, even people who legitametely need the drug (probably 1% or less of those it is prescribed to) abuse the drug. Just search "adderall" on google and you'll find multiple forums with prescribed users describing abuse. It's not just my experience. It's rampant abuse and understandably so. How can you expect people to resist the urge to overdose when it's one of the most addictive drugs out there? (edit) After abusing it for a few months, it could potentially take years for your brain chemistry to revert to feeling "normal." I've heard the "it doesn't affect ppl with add" too. Honestly, believe it when I see it. Sure, it might only be my experience, but seems to affect everyone the same. It's all part of the new "meta" in psychiatry and our society in general, where every problem you have can be cured by a pill. Not just adderall, but anti-depresants are at an all time high in prescriptions. I'm not sure where your illusion towards adderall is, but I can't find a site claiming it's one of the most prescribed drugs in the united states. In fact, neither WebMD nor medscape mention it within their reviews of prescribed drugs. So I'm going to need a source or two for you to back that claim up. However, psychiatric wise, it is on a list on a 2013 list from psych central. Secondly, searching adderall on google doesn't link me to any boards showing abuse. In fact, it shows me multiple links from people trying to shill for the substance. I'm not saying abuse isn't likely like with other drugs controlled substances. However, to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous. While there are misdiagnoses and people who front having symptoms of ADHD, due to it lacking a standardized method of testing, there are psychiatrists and neurologists already who do their best to watch out for people faking symptoms. And other than anecdotal claims, there's no true way of knowing if a person benefits from using amphetamine salts. However, I can say that people have at least benefited from feeling their smarter or feeling they can study more strongly. That alone is why the drug has been getting so much attention. Finally, in regards towards the argument of it actually enhancing one's performance. Realistically, I would flat out say that isn't entirely true. Ginseng is technically a stimulant as well. Is that going to be an argument towards Asians and their ability to play games better? Stimulants in general, like coffee, are what's causing people to "study" or concentrate on things they like to do. Medscape top 100 most prescribed drugs: + Show Spoiler +http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/829246 Psychcentral: + Show Spoiler + I said OVERprescribed, not most prescribed. Though the link that you posted shows it among the most prescribed AND increasing at a high rate. Is this because more people have add? Is it because we are now more capable at diagnosing it? I would say no. You can't find any forums showing abuse by people PRESCRIBED adderall? What? Try being the least bit creative with your searches. http://www.xojane.com/issues/adderall-is-the-best-and-worst-thing-everhttp://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/634642-How-much-Adderall-do-you-takeHere's an article from the Wall Street Journal. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444301704577631591596516110" to assume a massive amount of people being prescribed the drug "instantly" turn to abuse is preposterous." It's not preposterous at all. If you had a bag of cocaine in your room and you were only supposed to sniff .1 gram per day, how long before you got curious and sniffed half the bag? Especially when your doctor tells you it's okay. Not to mention, Adderall is cheap as fuck compared to Cocaine. Actually, funnily enough, you can snort Adderall. The "tests" for prescribing Adderall to people are useless. The only important factor is whether you want it or not. I personally know 5 people who got it and none of them had to do anything special. Are you seriously going to argue with me using bluelight forums? You tell me to be creative, but you go to one of the most ridiculous websites. Bluelight is a typical website used, almost like erowid really, to discuss over-dosages or even attempts to retrieve substances when one cannot get them via a medical professional. The over-prescription (which I originally misread, and for that, I apologize) lies within parents being unaware of ADHD and simply listening to their doctor. Of course, as a consequence, we're going to see an increase of children getting adderall or ritalin prescribed. I highly doubt my mother really knew what the kaiser psychiatrist was talking about towards "ADHD," like a majority of other parents. However, this still doesn't equate to people turning to and abusing adderall. You're running under the assumption that people are overly curious and will step out of bounds from what their doctor tells them. And you're also going to argue that doctors INSIST the patient further their dosage or even take DOUBLE the amount? What sort of allegation is that. Are you even aware of the potential consequences of the DSM regarding misdiagnosis? I highly doubt a doctor is going to put his license on the line in order for their patients to enjoy themselves. That cocaine reference is also laughable. This is some serious "nanny state-esque" sort of statement. If I give a person over 160mgs of caffeine a day, how much longer will the person attempt to do 320 mgs? Or even boost themselves to caffeine pills. If a person naturally suffers from addictive properties, he or she is going to abuse. That doesn't relate to the rest of the U.S. population. Not to mention, when it comes to adults suffering ADHD symptoms, doctors are even more cautious towards giving out the drug. Usually, they will start with an SSRI before considering a psycho-stimulant. Especially since adult ADHD is expected to be seen my medical records which showed you had those similarities as a child. ADHD isn't something that just appears out of nowhere. Even during TBIs, doctor's won't be quick to medicate the patient with psycho-stimulants. I'm not using the forums as evidence of some scientific phenomenon. I'm using it as evidence of rampant abuse of Adderall by prescribed users. "The over-prescription (which I originally misread, and for that, I apologize) lies within parents being unaware of ADHD and simply listening to their doctor" I don't believe so. It's all about the $$$ i.e. sales of the product. More doctors prescribe adderall, more adderall is sold. It also helps that's it's a really popular drug. Caffeine is not in the same category as Cocaine or Adderall. It's much easier to become addicted to adderall. I agree people with addictive personalities are more likely to become addicted, but that doesn't mean normal people will not become addicted as well. That's the nature of hardcore drugs like Meth, Heroine, Cocaine, and Adderall. They're addictive to everyone. Anyway, are you one of the people who supposedly doesn't feel the affects from Adderall because you have ADHD? If so, please take 30 mg, then 60 mg the next day and report back. Been wondering about this for years. Caffeine is almost exactly the the same. The difference lies in potency, which of course it's way less than a direct psycho-active stimulant. That's why it isn't a scheduled drug. addiction is addiction regardless of how you wish to look at it. A man or woman could snort heroine habitually without actually being addicted in fact. Your viewpoint towards medical professionals is something I can't contest. If you believe it's for money, I can't say my trust towards them is superior to your distrust. However, that still won't answer the question which is being proposed: are psycho-active stimulants considered mental enhancements. In some cases they are, but not what's currently being considered. If you take adderall, you aren't going to suddenly fly to GM from bronze. Many reports with share this. Even if I was stupid enough to double or triple my dosage, winning an argument wouldn't be the reason. Idk what you're even attempting to prove with that.
My view of doctors comes from my parents (ER doc and Psychiatrist) and ye, and it is quite negative. Corruption in the administration of hospitals, doctors killing patients and getting away with it because they are friends of higher ups etc. But, I think the biggest impression left on me by them is that medicine is not a perfect science. Doctors try things. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. In the case of Adderall prescriptions, who is to say the dose? You may be happy with your 15mg. Another guy might think he NEEDS 60. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Who is to say? At the end of the day though, he'll get it if that's what he wants if he keeps asking for it. So essentially, he might as well be prescribing himself. There is no exact science to it.
SC2 just like any "real sport" is a game of inches. Single actions can cause small leads which slowly snowball out of control. Adderall certainly won't bring you from bronze to GM. Most people will take years to make that journey. But it can, from my experience of taking it a few times, give you those few extra actions and a higher level of concentration. More importantly, it gives you superhuman endurance. Maybe you normally play 20 games in a session. Now you will play 60 and be ready for more... That can be a big help in an all day tournament. You can be awake for 12-24, pop an adderall, and within an hour, you feel like you just woke up and had your morning coffee.
Now, taking hardcore drugs in public could lead to problems if it's your first time or you don't like socializing. So it really depends on the player. But yes, I can see it being beneficial. As you point out, not on the same level as steroids in sports, but I would say significant enough.
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i tried discussing the possibility that i might benefit from adderall (or at least looking into adhd) with a GP once, she said she's never heard of an adult being diagnosed with adhd before and to FO t.t this is UK
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On April 15 2015 14:58 FFGenerations wrote:
i tried discussing the possibility that i might benefit from adderall (or at least looking into adhd) with a GP once, she said she's never heard of an adult being diagnosed with adhd before and to FO t.t this is UK
what the...either this one was a terible, terrible GP or you made the impression of a druggy
I know of 2 guys who got diagnosed with adhd in their early twenties (both went to the doctors because they were not able to take university exams successfully) and they were told that about a third of the children with adhd suffer from it even as adults.
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This explains why (almost) all the Koreans are so robot like: they are drugged!
All these drugs have terrible long term side effects (cancer & co) . A pro-player sacrifices a lot to play competitive, let's make sure we are not requiring them to sacrifice also their future health.
If performance drugs are tolerated, then they will become a requirement for anyone serious about competing. All the smart guys would (should) pass rather then killing themselves for a short time career and in the end, less and less quality guys will compete.
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The fuck is this necro, also no I don't want 11 - 16 year old kids (the official age limit to when people start to compete and get picked up by professional teams) hooked on prescription drugs that will probably fuck up their brain chemistry for their entire lives going through puberty.
What the fuck is wrong with you people.
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There is a big difference between saying you probably shouldn't do something and banning it. I don't think people should eat sugar but I don't want it banned.
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Bisutopia19215 Posts
Seems that drug testing will happen at least for counterstrike. Worth bringing this discussion up again.
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That's nice to hear.
I think the reason drugs are not allowed in sports is that it forces everyone to take them to remain competitive. We don't want that to happen obviously.
Same should be the case for SC2 and esports. No drugs except for when approved by doctor for special conditions.
Now.... what substances to test for??
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Katowice25012 Posts
What triggered this was a CSGO player saying his whole team was doing adderall at every event and that's the big one everyone talks about. Lesser known/discussed are certain kinds of beta blockers for stage nerves and Kennigit tweeted about those so that's likely being looked at.
Here's the ESL press release about it
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It's way too easy to get adderal if you want it legally. I don't see how this would change much other than drug testing companies making some money and the occasional player that didnt have a prescription getting in trouble. Doctor won't prescribe you adderal ? Switch doctor ask again repeat. Eventually it'll happen.
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Completely unnecessary, i can only think of negatives for this. A categorical NO.
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I think though that testing this runs the risk of entering in a negative, unending spiral. See it this way : as of today, there are probably progamers who take drugs to enhance their performances. Now, these are "simple", well-known, easy to get drugs like Adderall. What will happen when we start to test the players? Will they stop, or will they move on to other drugs? I think the second scenario will happen. Then we will test the players for the new drugs. Then they will move on again to more obscure, hard to get, dangerous, etc, drugs.
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On July 24 2015 01:48 PanN wrote:
It's way too easy to get adderal if you want it legally. I don't see how this would change much other than drug testing companies making some money and the occasional player that didnt have a prescription getting in trouble. Doctor won't prescribe you adderal ? Switch doctor ask again repeat. Eventually it'll happen.
While true all you have to do is look at the NFL and see that certain over the counter drugs and even prescribed asthma medication is banned (due to certain ingredients in them, not the concept itself of course).
So it's not unreasonable for new rulebooks to just ban out these things wholesale, prescription or not.
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On July 24 2015 02:11 OtherWorld wrote:
I think though that testing this runs the risk of entering in a negative, unending spiral. See it this way : as of today, there are probably progamers who take drugs to enhance their performances. Now, these are "simple", well-known, easy to get drugs like Adderall. What will happen when we start to test the players? Will they stop, or will they move on to other drugs? I think the second scenario will happen. Then we will test the players for the new drugs. Then they will move on again to more obscure, hard to get, dangerous, etc, drugs.
Congratulations, you've discovered how the sports world works. This is nearly every sport, actually imo, it is every sport, but can be argued otherwise.
What I fail to realize, is your point.
Edit: also, dangerous drugs is definitely relative. For example, the American government classifies Cannabis to be one of the most dangerous drugs, but as we all know this is false. Bodybuilder's don't consider testosterone steroids to be dangerous, although most medical professionals a.k.a doctors, do. It's my belief that most drugs, if not all, within reason, are NOT dangerous if used in moderation and in safe doses.
Yes, there are chemical concoctions that are created in a laboratory that in any dose are extremely toxic/dangerous but can you really classify that as a drug, or just poison? For example cyanide isn't a drug.
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We have tournaments (in every game) that have shitty set ups, from small tables to awful chairs -- from long ass wait for payments to tournament saturation and multiple other issues, and this is where e-sports people are going to focus on. Great.
Don't get me wrong, i'm all for "fair play", but when players face issues that are simple as hell to fix, this just baffles me. Adderal and other performance drugs is the least of the problems in any scene.
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On July 24 2015 02:51 MasterShake1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 02:11 OtherWorld wrote:
I think though that testing this runs the risk of entering in a negative, unending spiral. See it this way : as of today, there are probably progamers who take drugs to enhance their performances. Now, these are "simple", well-known, easy to get drugs like Adderall. What will happen when we start to test the players? Will they stop, or will they move on to other drugs? I think the second scenario will happen. Then we will test the players for the new drugs. Then they will move on again to more obscure, hard to get, dangerous, etc, drugs. Congratulations, you've discovered how the sports world works. This is nearly every sport, actually imo, it is every sport, but can be argued otherwise. What I fail to realize, is your point. Edit: also, dangerous drugs is definitely relative. For example, the American government classifies Cannabis to be one of the most dangerous drugs, but as we all know this is false. Bodybuilder's don't consider testosterone steroids to be dangerous, although most medical professionals a.k.a doctors, do. It's my belief that most drugs, if not all, within reason, are NOT dangerous if used in moderation and in safe doses. Yes, there are chemical concoctions that are created in a laboratory that in any dose are extremely toxic/dangerous but can you really classify that as a drug, or just poison? For example cyanide isn't a drug.
Thank you for your congratulations, means a lot to me (:
nah what I meant was that we run the risk of being an active part in the development of drug use in eSports, while if we do nothing it might stay at a small scale.
edit : Cannabis is one of the most dangerous drugs at certain states of the human life. And yes the only difference between drug and poison is the dose, so I think at a very very small dose cyanide can be used as a drug.
edit² : a very, very quick google search leads me to the fact that Cyanide is used in emergency medical situations to increase blood pressure. Get your facts right. And bodybuilders don't consider steroids as dangerous for the same reason doped athletes don't consider the shit they take as dangerous, because the sweet money they gain from their activity makes them forget the dangerousness of the product.
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in my opinion if a person is prescribed medication then that medication should be allowed. However if a player is found to be taking meds illegally then that shouldnt be allowed.
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On July 24 2015 03:12 billynasty wrote:
in my opinion if a person is prescribed medication then that medication should be allowed. However if a player is found to be taking meds illegally then that shouldnt be allowed.
Yeah but everyone has ADHD nowadays, so it's really easy to get a prescription for that too. /s
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Where do you draw the line here? Some people have a serious problem that drugs like this help.... but then you have things like caffeine where it is shown to help with memory and reflexes while its a widely consumed product it still is considered a drug.... much like the many ingredients in a can of Monster... Do we ban all energy drinks for our players that sponsor them?
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On July 24 2015 02:59 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 02:51 MasterShake1 wrote:On July 24 2015 02:11 OtherWorld wrote:
I think though that testing this runs the risk of entering in a negative, unending spiral. See it this way : as of today, there are probably progamers who take drugs to enhance their performances. Now, these are "simple", well-known, easy to get drugs like Adderall. What will happen when we start to test the players? Will they stop, or will they move on to other drugs? I think the second scenario will happen. Then we will test the players for the new drugs. Then they will move on again to more obscure, hard to get, dangerous, etc, drugs. Congratulations, you've discovered how the sports world works. This is nearly every sport, actually imo, it is every sport, but can be argued otherwise. What I fail to realize, is your point. Edit: also, dangerous drugs is definitely relative. For example, the American government classifies Cannabis to be one of the most dangerous drugs, but as we all know this is false. Bodybuilder's don't consider testosterone steroids to be dangerous, although most medical professionals a.k.a doctors, do. It's my belief that most drugs, if not all, within reason, are NOT dangerous if used in moderation and in safe doses. Yes, there are chemical concoctions that are created in a laboratory that in any dose are extremely toxic/dangerous but can you really classify that as a drug, or just poison? For example cyanide isn't a drug. Thank you for your congratulations, means a lot to me (: nah what I meant was that we run the risk of being an active part in the development of drug use in eSports, while if we do nothing it might stay at a small scale. edit : Cannabis is one of the most dangerous drugs at certain states of the human life. And yes the only difference between drug and poison is the dose, so I think at a very very small dose cyanide can be used as a drug. edit² : a very, very quick google search leads me to the fact that Cyanide is used in emergency medical situations to increase blood pressure. Get your facts right. And bodybuilders don't consider steroids as dangerous for the same reason doped athletes don't consider the shit they take as dangerous, because the sweet money they gain from their activity makes them forget the dangerousness of the product.
I don't want to derail this thread much... so I'll just PM you.
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Thing is, banning Aderall is a tricky one cause some players may well take it legitimately for ADHD. Stopping them from using it will of course make their condition much worse which in turn can affect their ability to play.
That said, amphetamines, stimulants in general do offer significant advantages in videogames. I've played Heroes, SC2, Halo, Company of Heroes, all under the influence of amphetamines, cocaine, and the impact is noticeable - I focus better, make better decisions, my APM is higher, I am less affected by tiredness... in a 1v1 situation against a player of similar skill, drugs may well give the 'edge' needed to overcome the opponent. In team situations, obviously teamwork etc remains the most important factor. But if all of one team is drugged up and all the other team is not, it will still prove a significant advantage.
So yes, drug testing. Players who have genuine reasons to be taking Aderall, Ritalin or similar medication will just have to deal with it, I guess.
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I think that every pro gamer should go under doping tests. If they are positive to those, they should get banned from competition... I also think, that players that have to use those drugs due to medical reasons should also be forbidden from competition unfortunately... I am all for fair play...
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On July 24 2015 04:29 rotta wrote:
Legalize Stim!
lol Yes!
I don't think this abusing adderall thing is as big of a deal in starcraft as it is in FPS games.
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lol this thread again
same opinion as before, it's not a sports organization's place to nanny people's intake of substances. they only do it because they don't want to be held liable, which i understand, but it's still stupid
someone on the last page had said "i don't want young kids getting hooked on powerful meds" - OK? neither do i? but maybe their parents should be keeping track of that
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first time i heard of was it was in counter strike, guy rumored of on drug(meth) most was meth0d (asian guy), forgot what team he played for back then. who knows but there was plenty of such rumor when i was in the competitive counter strike scene around 03-05, a friend of mine from Rival even admitted it to me though this was after the competitive scene.
10 years later...well, not too late and it just means esports has grown that much.
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Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible.
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On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible.
"unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money.
making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in
do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions.
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On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions.
That is stuff for some pretty bad ass dystopian future, where before a promatch is started, super sexy babes walk into the player booths with trays, on the trays are needles and all sort of drugs, and they pick their poison.
B-Teamers deciding to shortening their life by a good 20 years just to win that one game. Stephano took cocain, Qxc takes a look at the Dimethocaine but decides for the Quillivant XR in the last second.
Meanwhile in the undercard match iNcontroL overdosed on Shabu, Naniwa who refused participation in the pre-game-consumption phase wins with his patented probe rush.
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On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions.
So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke
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On July 24 2015 07:19 HaRuHi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. That is stuff for some pretty bad ass dystopian future, where before a promatch is started, super sexy babes walk into the player booths with trays, on the trays are needles and all sort of drugs, and they pick their poison. B-Teamers deciding to shortening their life by a good 20 years just to win that one game. Stephano took cocain, Qxc takes a look at the Dimethocaine but decides for the Quillivant XR in the last second. Meanwhile in the undercard match iNcontroL overdosed on Shabu, Naniwa who refused participation in the pre-game-consumption phase wins with his patented probe rush.
Yeah. The reason drugs are banned in any competitive endeavor is the same reason why doctors don't (or rather, shouldn't) prescribe Adderall to anyone who asks. Drugs damage your body in proportion to the dose taken, and in their attempts to reach the perfect state of play and keep winning games progamers will invariably take hideous amounts of these potent chemicals and horribly damage themselves. The ones who don't will, barring a few miraculous players, be inevitably pushed out of the scene, and so we as spectators will be paying to watch young men and possibly young women ruin their bodies and minds irreversibly for our pleasure.
Saying that it's a lifestyle choice is a red herring. There isn't any other lifestyle that can cause so much damage so quickly and so irrevocably, with the possible exception of American football, which is also quite heinous. This kind of logic can justify the return of gladiatorial arenas. Risking a stab in the gut is just a lifestyle choice, after all.
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On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke
i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing
and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you
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On July 24 2015 07:51 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 07:19 HaRuHi wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. That is stuff for some pretty bad ass dystopian future, where before a promatch is started, super sexy babes walk into the player booths with trays, on the trays are needles and all sort of drugs, and they pick their poison. B-Teamers deciding to shortening their life by a good 20 years just to win that one game. Stephano took cocain, Qxc takes a look at the Dimethocaine but decides for the Quillivant XR in the last second. Meanwhile in the undercard match iNcontroL overdosed on Shabu, Naniwa who refused participation in the pre-game-consumption phase wins with his patented probe rush. Yeah. The reason drugs are banned in any competitive endeavor is the same reason why doctors don't (or rather, shouldn't) prescribe Adderall to anyone who asks. Drugs damage your body in proportion to the dose taken, and in their attempts to reach the perfect state of play and keep winning games progamers will invariably take hideous amounts of these potent chemicals and horribly damage themselves. The ones who don't will, barring a few miraculous players, be inevitably pushed out of the scene, and so we as spectators will be paying to watch young men and possibly young women ruin their bodies and minds irreversibly for our pleasure. Saying that it's a lifestyle choice is a red herring. There isn't any other lifestyle that can cause so much damage so quickly and so irrevocably, with the possible exception of American football, which is also quite heinous. This kind of logic can justify the return of gladiatorial arenas. Risking a stab in the gut is just a lifestyle choice, after all. really? so ruining your sleep isn't causing damage with scientific articles coming out every day about how incredibly important sleep is? having no job skills and no friends isn't damage? i'm not saying this is every progamer but nor is everyone who dabbles in drugs a junkie burnout for the rest of their life. you're just generalizing based on social stereotypes about drug use. people make their own decisions and it's asinine to police them "for their health"
educate people about drugs yes, parents control their kids behavior yes, tell adults what they're allowed to ingest before joining a competition no. asinine.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you
When you allow perfomance enhancing drugs your competition turns from battle of exceptional sportsmen to battle of exceptional chemical laboratories. Personally, I don't see it as an entertaining one.
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On July 24 2015 08:55 Ingvar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you When you allow perfomance enhancing drugs your competition turns from battle of exceptional sportsmen to battle of exceptional chemical laboratories. Personally, I don't see it as an entertaining one. that's like saying football is a battle of who has the best weight training equipment. it's still a human playing and performing based on the thoughts in his brain. an adderall pill can't play starcraft o its own.
you have every right to your moral stance, but to me you're just choosing not to enjoy something based on an unnecessary ethic. speak against it and try to stop it all you want, you're entitled, but the people who act like not caring is comparable to allowing rape and murder or something are just silly
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brickrd i can somewhat understand where you are coming from, i also think people should be allowed to do whatever they want IN THEIR FREE TIME. Competition doesn't fall into this category though, it's about skill and skill only (well it should be), not who can cheat his way into the finals of a championship.
It's about competetive integrity.
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On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you
I don't think many people are against it on a moral authority basis or a "drugs are bad k" basis. People are against one side gaining a competitive edge by virtue of their taking drugs while the others that don't take drugs fall behind. The playing field should be level. It's like playing with an extra hand. Training regimens etc are one thing, practicing more etc is down to the player/his coaching staff etc. But as I said earlier, two players of equal skill facing off, if one has taken Aderall/speed/meth/coke/whatever it can give him the edge to win.
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interesting discussion, figure i'd weigh in.
as i see it drugs alter your body's chemistry drastically, and more easily than habits (i.e. poor sleeping, poor diet, poor exercise).
in that sense, it's not fair to simply compare 'this guy endures X to practice more' to 'this guy endures Y to take more drugs' -- here X might be sleep, and Y might be damage the drugs do to your body
Y is much greater than X in terms of chemical effect
*perhaps* 1 month of poor sleeping (X) will do more damage than 1 dose of some drug (Y), but then we are changing the time frames.
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I personally don't mind. I don't think anyone is abusing drugs and even if they are, then it's up to them.
As far as competitive advantage and integrity goes, it's obvious that SC is extremely mental in nature, but I don't see how focusing harder gives you an edge. I think it's hugely personal, some people welcome distractions to get out of their own head and the crowd hypes them up. Others likely want to do nothing but focus and if that's what they want then I believe that's what they should aim for whether it be through drugs or meditation or some shit.
Another particular for me is that there are so few players at this elite level and I would be sad to see any of the competition go due to their usage habits being cracked down on.
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The drug talk revolves around counter strike, as the necro post entailed. Reaction improving drugs have been rumored about as long as I can remember in cs.
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On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you
Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids.
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On the one hand, it's hard to go after Adderall because the only people who will suffer are the player who can't get a prescription. On the other hand, if whole teams of CS players are taking adderall regularly that's quite concerning for their health and maybe something should be done. We're talking about a drug where you can stay up playing for 3 days straight. If you take adderall regularly, the chemicals in your brain get drained fast. Pretty soon you can't focus or enjoy yourself without it.
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ADHD, depression, anxiety, Autism Spectrum, epilepsy, etc... There are a lot of things that are treated with mind/mood/chemistry altering drugs. These things are found in not only E-sports players but in actual athletes.
The only thing that should occur is that if a player is tested and they are found to have a drug in their system they show a prescription, not required to tell them for what diagnosis or anything else. That way we know the individual knows the risks and how to take the medication because hopefully their doctor explained that to them.
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On July 24 2015 09:00 brickrd wrote:
an adderall pill can't play starcraft o its own.
Congrats! You just found the reason why taking drugs is even worse than just practicing alone.
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On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all
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hmm, guess i'm late on the news
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On July 24 2015 12:08 jinorazi wrote:
The drug talk revolves around counter strike, as the necro post entailed. Reaction improving drugs have been rumored about as long as I can remember in cs.
More than just rumors. About a decade ago, a lot of the aging cs players were caught doing cocaine and speed to keep their reaction times on par with with their younger competition.
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"Adderall wont help you stop protoss all ins" - Moosegills
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On July 24 2015 20:33 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all
Yes, I do police their private lives, when it effects things outside their private life. Being on PEDs during a competition can effect the lives of hundreds to thousands of people directly and indirectly. You not only force your competitors to partake or risk being worse off for no reason other than not injesting something, but you also risk the integrity of the compeititon, and cost people hundreds to even a few thousand dollars, whether it be through legal betting, the prize pool you receive for winning on PEDs, or the salary you earn on your team for simply being better than the next guy because you're on PEDs. What you do is on you, but as soon as it starts effecting others, that's where most people draw the line, simply because that's the intelligent thing to do.
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On July 24 2015 23:40 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 20:33 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all Yes, I do police their private lives, when it effects things outside their private life. Being on PEDs during a competition can effect the lives of hundreds to thousands of people directly and indirectly. You not only force your competitors to partake or risk being worse off for no reason other than not injesting something, but you also risk the integrity of the compeititon, and cost people hundreds to even a few thousand dollars, whether it be through legal betting, the prize pool you receive for winning on PEDs, or the salary you earn on your team for simply being better than the next guy because you're on PEDs. What you do is on you, but as soon as it starts effecting others, that's where most people draw the line, simply because that's the intelligent thing to do. lol. ive made multiple posts already that smash this line of reasoning, read back for my reply because there's no point writing it again
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On July 24 2015 23:45 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 23:40 StasisField wrote:On July 24 2015 20:33 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all Yes, I do police their private lives, when it effects things outside their private life. Being on PEDs during a competition can effect the lives of hundreds to thousands of people directly and indirectly. You not only force your competitors to partake or risk being worse off for no reason other than not injesting something, but you also risk the integrity of the compeititon, and cost people hundreds to even a few thousand dollars, whether it be through legal betting, the prize pool you receive for winning on PEDs, or the salary you earn on your team for simply being better than the next guy because you're on PEDs. What you do is on you, but as soon as it starts effecting others, that's where most people draw the line, simply because that's the intelligent thing to do. lol. ive made multiple posts already that smash this line of reasoning, read back for my reply because there's no point writing it again
There's no point for me to because our point stands. It effects other human beings' lives so it gets regulated. A libertarian world only works in theory, bud. Sorry, but history of sports and competition proves you wrong. They wouldn't have decided to ban substances in every other respected sporting event and competition if you were right because there would have been no reason to.
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jathin used to be the pro scene's adderall dealer
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btw i was kidding, pls dont take away jatmans medical license..
cus im waiting for my next shipment ^_^
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On July 25 2015 00:03 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 23:45 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 23:40 StasisField wrote:On July 24 2015 20:33 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 12:47 awu25 wrote:On July 24 2015 08:46 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 07:32 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2015 06:41 brickrd wrote:On July 24 2015 06:13 Shikyo wrote:
Well.
On one hand I understand banning it as adderall seems to be very effective and it does give an unfair advantage... On the other hand, it would cause there to be higher quality gameplay and I enjoy watching as high quality gameplay as possible. "unfair" is totally arbitrary and up to opinion. if the idea is that it's unfair because you have to risk your health ingesting a substance then i think you could easily argue the standard way progamers practice for hours and hours a day to the detriment of physical health, proper sleep, social interaction, job skills, etc is also dangerous and not good for your health. why should some high GM ladder player be expected to make that kind of insane commitment to compete with the hardcore pros? that's just the world of competitive sports, it's demanding and unfair and can eat you alive, but you make sacrifices because you also get to play games for money. making a distinction between taking drugs and doing ridiculous practice regimens is honestly just alarmism and morality policing IMO. it comes from a nebulous fear of drugs as a big bad uncontrollable evil when really it's just a lifestyle choice. being a progamer at all is also a lifestyle choice not everyone would agree with, but if people are adults they can do what they want. and if they aren't adults their parents should be stepping in do i think taking powerful drugs to succeed in competition is a good idea, would i personally do it? no. but my morality doesn't dictate others' decisions. So what do you think about doping in sports then? A respectable and not unfair choice? fucking joke i don't see where you got "respectable" from anything i said. i don't have to respect someone to respect their right to their own choices. i don't think doping is respectable, but i also don't think i have some bullshit moral authority over those who do it. it's a choice and a sacrifice, and i don't see what separates it from the same kind of sacrifices almost every competitor makes to excel. because "drugs are bad, mmkay?" come on, it's not the 1950s. if the sacrifice is a social life and 8 hours of sleep then ooh, he's so dedicated! he's so passionate about the game! but if it's a chemical then he's a junkie dopehead? it's just arbitrary morality policing and yes, same view for any sport, why would it be different? saying "fucking joke" isn't an argument, it just sounds like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Many professional athletes are looked upon by younger generations. PEDs and drugs are banned because they don't want kids looking up to their idols and thinking it's okay to do the same thing. That's why marijuana is a bannable offense in the NFL. It doesn't help the players' on the field performance, but it sets a bad example for younger kids. so you police their private lives? again, it's a sporting competition, they aren't parents. kids HAVE parents to deal with this kind of thing. children are going to know about drugs one way or another through school, the internet, etc. blaming athletes or gamers is absolutely pathetic parenting and anyone who does it shouldn't have kids at all Yes, I do police their private lives, when it effects things outside their private life. Being on PEDs during a competition can effect the lives of hundreds to thousands of people directly and indirectly. You not only force your competitors to partake or risk being worse off for no reason other than not injesting something, but you also risk the integrity of the compeititon, and cost people hundreds to even a few thousand dollars, whether it be through legal betting, the prize pool you receive for winning on PEDs, or the salary you earn on your team for simply being better than the next guy because you're on PEDs. What you do is on you, but as soon as it starts effecting others, that's where most people draw the line, simply because that's the intelligent thing to do. lol. ive made multiple posts already that smash this line of reasoning, read back for my reply because there's no point writing it again There's no point for me to because our point stands. It effects other human beings' lives so it gets regulated. A libertarian world only works in theory, bud. Sorry, but history of sports and competition proves you wrong. They wouldn't have decided to ban substances in every other respected sporting event and competition if you were right because there would have been no reason to.
There is no reason to talk with him more about this topic. People on EPO who have get up every hour in the night to let their blood circle more, people who die in the age between of 30 or 40 after massvie use of drugs to gain "that one victory". He does not care because people do it privatly and are not forced to do so. But there are: In a world where doping is legal, people would have to choose between winning and ruining their health or get out of that sport. Someone takes adderal, no harm? One other will find out, that he plays on crystal meth better then on adderal. The next one finds out that the russian drug "crocodile" is even better. You will have a drug race which forces people to do drugs for sports and to ruin their health.
Now you can say again, nobody forces them, they can do other jobs? Can they? I am a better stox exchange dealer under cocain, a better therapist under dope, a better facility manager under X. Yeah. I am liberal to people who want to ruin their health with tabac, alcohol and other drugs for their fun, it does not force anyone to take em. But when you start supporting people taking health damaging drugs for competition, either in sport or any other job, you force people to ruin their health to make a living. Yeah, normal jobs can do that too, but why increasing it massive?
Isnt it easier to ban these drugs in that situation? To not force people to take them to competete? Whould anybody lose anything from it? I dont think so. When a player misses some shots he would hit on adderal, on crystal or on anything else, it does not make the overall sport worse watching. I dont care if they need 5 hours or 5 hours and 20 minutes per day at the tour de france, but I care when their record champion drugged the hell out (and all others there too up to a point where health is ruined for many).
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You guys need to read up on the effects of psychostimulants on those without ADHD. They're more likely to make a person without ADHD "feel like" they're doing better than actually make them perform better.
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Lol the physical effects of anyone, prescribed or not, will general include increased heart rate, increased total compasity in heart, brain recorded more blood, etc. Not sure if it's been said, the problem with testing is stimulants are out of your system after a day or two.
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And for all you kiddies pretending to have ADHD and crying that aderrall is necessary , stop lieing to yourselves. You take a drug that makes you feel good, that's why you take it. I've worked with enough crack babies, and special populations to know that anyone who sits down to get into sc2 doesn't need aderrall. The fact that they made a conscious choice to sit still and try to get into as slow a game as sc proves they don't have this made up ADHD
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I use Modafinil and Piracetam not for SC2 but for better focus, memory and heavy studying in general.
These Nootropics drugs have been booming in the last decade or so. Many people really find them useful for mental stressful tasks.
I think these drugs can help in Esports and I don't think they should be banned, they don't really produce an unfair advantage. Plus they don't have those nasty side effects like aderall and other stimulants.
I would like to elaborate more but I really have no experience with the testing and different types of drugs used for different mental "boosts", I just use www.nootriment.com for info about stacks and prices.
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On July 26 2015 23:11 00Zarathustra wrote:I use Modafinil and Piracetam not for SC2 but for better focus, memory and heavy studying in general. These Nootropics drugs have been booming in the last decade or so. Many people really find them useful for mental stressful tasks.
I never understood drug taking for studying.
At what point did you stop believing in your abilities that you feel the need to supplement them with drugs.(rhetorical)
At what point are you allowing yourself to grow mentally, or is the growth artificial.
I see people do it all the time for difficult subjects like engineering and medicine.
Do these people actually believe they'll get a degree and then walk into a professional environment and be capable of the same work without the drugs? Do they think they'll be able to continue to take the drugs on the job? and lose all their credibility when the bosses find out. Losing your credibility in a professional environment is as good as not having a degree.
For me, I believe in an equal playing field.
Either drugs are allowed or not allowed, no exception on what is or not.
If we want to conserve the integrity of the sports, it's better if no drugs are allowed.
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[QUOTE]On April 06 2011 19:31 Actuarial wrote:
I have been diagnosed with ADHD and have been prescribed Adderall.
Adderall helps me focus on things that I otherwise have trouble focusing on like school or anything that bores me. But when I am playing Starcraft, I naturally focus intensely on the game. "
..Tell your unqualified doctor this statement and he'd take your script away, news flash, you don't have anything wrong with you, you never did.
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Porting this over from a locked thread titled Drug Tests in E-Sports and Player Unions. Just to clear up some misconceptions, I am not advocating the use of any substance. I am against the ESL's drug testing policy because I don't think it will work.
I'm watching The Late Game episode 38 and the topic of drug tests came up. I would like to put forth an argument as to why drug testing is E-Sports is a bad idea, and why players should organize to fight it.
First I want to discuss the issue of player representation. At the moment players often have no legal representation, and are in fact encouraged by some organizations to not get legal help (according to Ryan Mossiron on TLG). Without representation, players find it harder to get basic rights (like being paid, the ability to appeal actions of organisations), have little recourse when they are mistreated.
Players also need legal representation before signing contracts, but often they can't afford it. If there was a player union, that union could hire legal assistance to help all players negotiate contracts and help mediate disputes. A player union could represent players in the establishment of pay standards, expectations of players, and give players the ability to protest things that are not in their best interests, such as the introduction of drug testing in E-Sports.
Drugs in E-Sports
The ESL announced recently that they were going to team up with NADA (the Nationale Anti Doping Agentur, which is headquartered in Bonn, Germany) to begin testing for performance enhancing drugs. The drugs they are testing for can be seen in this list.
"Our main goal is and always will be to maintain the fair play spirit and the integrity of our competitions, and we’re confident that the anti-doping policy is an important improvement that will help us advance as a sport."
The main discussion has been around Adderall, stemming from an interview with "semphis", a Counterstrike player who said "we're all on Adderall". I will focus on Adderall for the purpose of this discussion.
What if a player has a legitimate prescription for medication (such as Adderall) containing one or more of the banned substances?
In this case, they have to disclose this to us as soon as possible, but no later than the first match is scheduled to start. They will be required to provide proof (a letter from a physician, for example) that they need this specific medication.
So what I take from this is that the ESL wants to start drug testing young people, who often have no legal representation, for a legal substance that some people legitimately need, and that can be used as long as that person has a prescription. From what I understand, Adderall is not a difficult thing to get a prescription for. So all introducing drug tests will mean is that everyone in E-Sports who wants to use Adderall will have a prescription for Adderall. It will not effect competitive play at all. It will achieve nothing toward their stated goal.
I understand and agree with the viewpoint that it would be nice if everything was 100% fair 100% of the time. But If you want a level playfield, I think the area where the biggest imbalance lies is between players and E-Sports organisations like ESL. Drug testing is going to be a massive waste of money in an industry where players regularly get shafted financially. Do players want that money to go to a drug testing company to do tests that will cause inconvenience and not make any significant difference to the amount of Adderall used?
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EPT
