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On April 06 2011 10:40 MaxPro wrote:
big misconception that adderall makes you better. Only thing it would do is help people concentrate the entire game without their mind slipping off the game and think about the crowd etc..
being a former halo pro i know that 85% of the pros take adderall consistently at tourneys and the owners know it. which is why tests will not be enforced at mlg. remember adderall does not make you a better player. if it provides more exciting matches i dont see what the problem is. Amphetamine-based medications are banned in South Korea. They cannot be obtained at a South Korean pharmacy and are illegal to import. if you think you cannot beat someone because they are on adderall. take it yourself or get pwnd bro
:o Sup max didn't expect to see you round here but I remember seeing you in a couple of team in the 09 season? I think it was and to reinforce that point he made it was brought up a lot on the Halo forums about whether something should be done, a player in particular called Strongside takes it a lot last I heard, but it would be very impractical to enforce some form of testing when E sports is this small. Maybe when it becomes huge I would suggest doing tests but for the time being it wouldn't be very feasible.
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On April 06 2011 10:14 Tercotta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 10:11 Talin wrote:
I can't see how something like this would be enforced, but I indeed voted No. How about the way it is enforced in every other sport.
You mean the way it's not? People are still on performance enhancing drugs despite efforts to stop it. I voted no, but I don't see how you can enforce it.
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Performance enhancing drugs can only be good for the game popularity-wise in the grand scale of things. No one wants to watch a player get bored after his 20th straight bo3 at MLG and walk transfer his probes through a tank line.
Steroids gave us Roger Clemes, Barry Bonds, Lebron James etc. Can only be good!
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On April 07 2011 15:35 chonkyfire wrote:
You have no idea what you are talking about. Go back and re-read your posts. They make no sense.
Well that's me told. Thanks, I'll be sure to go tell my colleagues and professors that they're all wrong and should just ask the great chonkyfire's wikipedia skills next time they have a question.
Bowing out of this conversation now. This is literally the least intelligent thread I've participated in on TL yet.
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There would be no way to enforce this regulation. There are so many online tournaments plus... would SC players even be willing to do drug tests. NO.
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Should it be banned during tournament play? Yes absolutely.
Should it be banned during practice? That's another issue entirely, and I'd have to say no. This way, players achieve their maximum amount of practice and preparation, bringing the highest skill games. We still get to see them be human on stage. Also I think it would be pretty hard to enforce it in practice without major privacy invasions or regular urine screening (lol).
EDIT: Also, if you've ever taken ritalin/adderall, you'll know that they simply help you concentrate on one specific task and block out other distractions. They don't provide you with the motivation to do something, and they don't directly increase your performance. It's all focus.
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What if someone has these drugs on a prescription? Should they be excluded from competitive play because of it?
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On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?...
"Illegal"
"Downsides"
I laughed. Not only is it perfectly legal, but the "downsides" are purely subjective. Let's make a list:
Caffeine results in crashes.
Hand-warmers can make your hands stuffy and less reactive.
Comfortable clothes can make you more tired.
Personalized equipment has room for cheating via macro keys, etc.
Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs is akin to saying caffeine should be banned because some people steal soda from stores.
What's wrong with your heads?
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I think the best way to counter act this is to force players to smoke weed before the match.
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I'm sure someone has mentioned it by now, but most molecules can be considered performance enhancing. Heck, water improves performance, but is anyone complaining about athletes drinking Gatorade? What about caffeine, a very powerful psychostimulant?
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Stim allows you to attack and move 50% faster, but at what cost? 10 HP per use? IDK...
Seriously though, this sort of behavior should have a very negative stigma attached to it, there should be no acceptance about it explicitly and tacitly.
However, should there be testing and penalties? Not sure on that one since there isn't much info on the matter - links to official articles would be great. Questions then arise who'd regulate and administer this. Of course this problem wouldn't be endemic only to SC2, but all eSports. Is this phenomena currently pervasive or trending so. And has it become so serious that immediate attention is needed. eSports is still somewhat in its infancy and efforts are focused in making this activity mainstream.
No doubt it should be discussed and supporters, sponsors and teams should stress the dangers of using enhancing drugs and perhaps spend significant resources in employing alternatives such as meditation or other forms of mental training (gaging their effectiveness of course).
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I pose a question simply because this conversation is so.... broad.
Lets take random awesome player and call him JimBob.
JimBob has ADHD. His mom and dad took him to the doctor when he was 12 because he could simply not pay attention to anything at all while at school and would constantly disrupt social situations in a very distracting way. After trying for a year with a non medicine approach the doctor convinces JimBob's parents to consider trying an adderall script.
JimBob's grades improve, he is calmer and gains more friends, and he and his parents are happier and thankful.
JimBob is now 14 years old, 8th on the North American ladder with a 84% win ratio, and his adhd is controlled through his doctors and parents choices.
JimBob has never once used his prescription in an illegal way or for malicious reasons. He uses it because it is treating a condition.
If JimBob's team sponsors him to go to MLG is JimBob supposed to beg his parents to take him off of the prescription that the doctor has suggested, that has improved his grades, that has improved his social fulfillment, that has basically solved the problem of ADHD that was the cornerstone of almost every problem he was having?
If we put a rule like this in place that will be his only option.
edit - Made my point more clear.
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On April 08 2011 06:13 vaderseven wrote:
I pose a question simply because this conversation is so.... broad.
Lets take random awesome player and call him JimBob.
JimBob has ADHD. His mom and dad took him to the doctor when he was 12 because he could simply not pay attention to anything at all while at school and would constantly disrupt social situations in a very distracting way. After trying for a year with a non medicine approach the doctor convinces JimBob's parents to consider trying an adderall script.
JimBob's grades improve, he is calmer and gains more friends, and he and his parents are happier and thankful.
JimBob is now 14 years old, 8th on the North American ladder with a 84% win ratio, and his adhd is controlled through his doctors and parents choices.
JimBob has never once used his prescription in an illegal way or for malicious reasons. He uses it because it is treating a condition.
Is JimBob supposed to beg his parents to take him off of the prescription that the doctor has suggested, that has improved his grades, that has improved his social fulfillment, that has basically solved the problem of ADHD that was the cornerstone of almost every problem he was having?
That one is fairly simple. JimBob has a prescription and sanctioned by his Doctor to take X mg of drug Y, Z times a day. If it's legit then you got a doctors note. Same situation happen in the Olympics and major sports - they have policies to manage it. There are banned and restricted substances.
Edit: Question is, should such monitoring be done for eSports? My opinion, not right now.
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If what you say is true Fwiffo, then it is already like this. Any use besudes a doctors sanctioned X mg of drug Y, Z times a day is illegal.
I am sure that MLG will not sanction the use of illegal drugs.
Testing and all that aside, this seems more of a question of do we want to ban this substance regardless of legal or non legal use.
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We could just even the playing field and enforce a rule that everyone has to drink 2 4Loko's at the start of every series. That way the playing field is balanced.
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On April 08 2011 06:22 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:13 vaderseven wrote:
I pose a question simply because this conversation is so.... broad.
Lets take random awesome player and call him JimBob.
JimBob has ADHD. His mom and dad took him to the doctor when he was 12 because he could simply not pay attention to anything at all while at school and would constantly disrupt social situations in a very distracting way. After trying for a year with a non medicine approach the doctor convinces JimBob's parents to consider trying an adderall script.
JimBob's grades improve, he is calmer and gains more friends, and he and his parents are happier and thankful.
JimBob is now 14 years old, 8th on the North American ladder with a 84% win ratio, and his adhd is controlled through his doctors and parents choices.
JimBob has never once used his prescription in an illegal way or for malicious reasons. He uses it because it is treating a condition.
Is JimBob supposed to beg his parents to take him off of the prescription that the doctor has suggested, that has improved his grades, that has improved his social fulfillment, that has basically solved the problem of ADHD that was the cornerstone of almost every problem he was having? That one is fairly simple. JimBob has a prescription and sanctioned by his Doctor to take X mg of drug Y, Z times a day. If it's legit then you got a doctors note. Same situation happen in the Olympics and major sports - they have policies to manage it. There are banned and restricted substances. Edit: Question is, should such monitoring be done for eSports? My opinion, not right now.
Except that it's a fucking JOKE (in the USA) to get a legitimate prescription for these things. We're basically slaves to our corporate overlords and one of those overlords happens to be the pharmaceutical industry. Why would anyone waste time monitoring this shit when 9 times out of 10 the dude you end up catching pulls a prescription from some asshole doctor who gets plane tickets and hotel rooms in the bahamas from Shire pharma. every year?
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On April 08 2011 05:48 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?... "Illegal" "Downsides" I laughed. Not only is it perfectly legal, but the "downsides" are purely subjective. Let's make a list: Caffeine results in crashes. Hand-warmers can make your hands stuffy and less reactive. Comfortable clothes can make you more tired. Personalized equipment has room for cheating via macro keys, etc. Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs is akin to saying caffeine should be banned because some people steal soda from stores. What's wrong with your heads?
I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with you actually but way to be an ass.
On April 07 2011 12:11 shwick wrote:
Adderol increases focus but REDUCES creativity in the mind. Imo creativity is much more important than focus.
Adderol basically turns you into a drone. Would you rather be a drone or a blink stalker?
Reduced creativity and strategic thinking from Adderall is unproven according to the following paper...
+ Show Spoiler +When we enhance cognition with Adderall, do we sacrifice creativity? A preliminary study.
Farah MJ, Haimm C, Sankoorikal G, Smith ME, Chatterjee A.
Center for Cognitive Neuroscience, University of Pennsylvania, 3720 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA. mfarah@psych.upenn.edu
Erratum in:
* Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2009 Apr;203(3):651. Smith, M Elizabeth [added].
Abstract
RATIONALE: Adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) is used by healthy normal individuals to enhance attention. Research with healthy normal participants and those with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder indicate a possible inverse relationship between attentional function and creativity. This raises the possibility that Adderall could decrease creativity in people using it for cognitive enhancement.
OBJECTIVE: This study was designed to find out whether Adderall impairs creativity in healthy young adults.
MATERIAL AND METHODS: In a double-blind placebo-controlled study, the effects of Adderall on the performance of 16 healthy young adults were measured on four tests of creativity from the psychological literature: two tasks requiring divergent thought and two requiring convergent thought.
RESULTS: Adderall affected performance on the convergent tasks only, in one case enhancing it, particularly for lower-performing individuals, and in the other case enhancing it for the lower-performing and impairing it for higher-performing individuals.
CONCLUSION: The preliminary evidence is inconsistent with the hypothesis that Adderall has an overall negative effect on creativity. Its effects on divergent creative thought cannot be inferred with confidence from this study because of the ambiguity of null results. Its effects on convergent creative thought appear to be dependent on the baseline creativity of the individual. Those in the higher range of the normal distribution may be unaffected or impaired, whereas those in the lower range of the normal distribution experience enhancement.
This was written 2 years ago but non the of scientific databases my university subscribes to have anything more recent in this regard.
On April 08 2011 06:22 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:13 vaderseven wrote:
I pose a question simply because this conversation is so.... broad.
Lets take random awesome player and call him JimBob.
JimBob has ADHD. His mom and dad took him to the doctor when he was 12 because he could simply not pay attention to anything at all while at school and would constantly disrupt social situations in a very distracting way. After trying for a year with a non medicine approach the doctor convinces JimBob's parents to consider trying an adderall script.
JimBob's grades improve, he is calmer and gains more friends, and he and his parents are happier and thankful.
JimBob is now 14 years old, 8th on the North American ladder with a 84% win ratio, and his adhd is controlled through his doctors and parents choices.
JimBob has never once used his prescription in an illegal way or for malicious reasons. He uses it because it is treating a condition.
Is JimBob supposed to beg his parents to take him off of the prescription that the doctor has suggested, that has improved his grades, that has improved his social fulfillment, that has basically solved the problem of ADHD that was the cornerstone of almost every problem he was having? That one is fairly simple. JimBob has a prescription and sanctioned by his Doctor to take X mg of drug Y, Z times a day. If it's legit then you got a doctors note. Same situation happen in the Olympics and major sports - they have policies to manage it. There are banned and restricted substances. Edit: Question is, should such monitoring be done for eSports? My opinion, not right now.
As I've stated before, I disagree. While JimBob has a legitimate prescription for the medication and I have no issue with him consuming it for medical purposes, if JimBob requires a substance which is banned at an event in order to compete at that event the regardless of why he is taking the drug JimBob is not qualified to compete. People on steroids because they're recovering from an illness (I think this happens with cancer?) still can't attend the olympics, there's no good reason to make exceptions just because your doctor gave you a note.
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On April 08 2011 06:54 dogmeatstew wrote:
As I've stated before, I disagree. While JimBob has a legitimate prescription for the medication and I have no issue with him consuming it for medical purposes, if JimBob requires a substance which is banned at an event in order to compete at that event the regardless of why he is taking the drug JimBob is not qualified to compete. People on steroids because they're recovering from an illness (I think this happens with cancer?) still can't attend the olympics, there's no good reason to make exceptions just because your doctor gave you a note.
So every underage gamer that is on ADHD medicine should be bared from events?
edit - Let me clear, I ask to make the point that this is beyond the competitors choice in many circumstances, be it for legal reasons (your parents are your legal consent in the USA) or medical reasons (JimBob might see a reason that even though he is one of the best players ever he can not risk his future by stopping a medicine that has helped him out so much).
You talk about steroids for cancer recovery and that is a short term medical state related to a conidtion that in general will make you not able to compete in the first place.
This discussion is focused on a medicine that people who are perfectly able to compete will be on for completely legit (as far as the law is concerned and that is all that matters) long term reasons.
Adderall is impossible to compare to steroids in terms of its use in legit medicine.
All questions aside I doubt we will see e-sports outlawing anything beyond the normal scope of law for a very, very long time. Many reason lead me to think this and they have been brought up already. In the meantime, please consider that it is perfectly legal and expected for a person with ADD to be medicated for ADD. Be it right or wrong thats what a doctor may conclude. I encourage everyone to approach the issue with an open mind until such a time as a rule or law changes due to evidence of it being a true problem with way esports work. Until then, you will come off as high and mighty to those that are using said prescriptions for a legit reason.
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On April 08 2011 05:13 Honeybadger wrote:
Well that's me told. Thanks, I'll be sure to go tell my colleagues and professors that they're all wrong and should just ask the great chonkyfire's wikipedia skills next time they have a question.
Bowing out of this conversation now. This is literally the least intelligent thread I've participated in on TL yet.
instead of admitting your wrong you continue to do that? Maybe your intelligence level isn't as high as you think it is? Aren't you the guy who claimed the ladder was failing when you couldn't get out of gold?
Maybe if you backed up your amphetamine isn't an amphetamine like cocaine/meth claim we could of avoided all this.
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On April 08 2011 06:54 dogmeatstew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 05:48 Zeke50100 wrote:On April 08 2011 02:53 delHospital wrote:On April 08 2011 02:20 PJA wrote:On April 07 2011 15:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
Caffeine should be banned, too, since it stimulates the body.
Oh, and hand-warmers, comfortable clothes, and personalized equipment all give advantages, too. To hell with all of them.
What's up with biased polls clearly directing people to vote in a certain way? It doesn't get the community's actual thoughts at all. Throw in "performance enhancing" in the title and of course people will say no. Yes, illegal substances with obvious downsides are clearly equivalent to comfortable clothing. WTF is wrong with your head? Oh, it's illegal and it has downsides. Now you've convinced me. Too bad I can't go back in time and change my vote. Energy drink consumption is tolerated, and even encouraged, if a sponsor happens to be an energy drink manufacturer, despite the fact that it (as advertised on Red Bull's website): - Increases performance
- Increases concentration and reaction speed
- Improves vigilance
- Stimulates metabolism
- Makes you feel more energetic and thus improves your overall well-being
And, yeah, WTF is wrong with his head?... "Illegal" "Downsides" I laughed. Not only is it perfectly legal, but the "downsides" are purely subjective. Let's make a list: Caffeine results in crashes. Hand-warmers can make your hands stuffy and less reactive. Comfortable clothes can make you more tired. Personalized equipment has room for cheating via macro keys, etc. Saying Adderall is illegal because people lie about their needs is akin to saying caffeine should be banned because some people steal soda from stores. What's wrong with your heads? I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with you actually but way to be an ass.
My post was entirely a reply to PJA (I was too lazy to edit out the rest of the quote). Well, I lied; the last line was there to continue the "What's wrong" chain. So almost entirely.
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EPT
