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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 12:46 ffadicted wrote:
I'll have to give this episode a herp derp / 10 for failing to basically considering anything but corruptors as a counter. Corruptors don't work right now? Buff them. We must have easy counter to this.
Cmon guys, there's usually at least 5 different types of units in that ball, and you want one zerg unit to be savior of the race when it comes to dealing with the entire goddamn protoss tech tree (I've seen storm added in the ball to even further its usefulness). There are a number of combinations that are viable against this, as well as abusing mobility of the race and things like drops and mineral line harrass to never let him get comfortable with his set of units.
The first two episodes weren't bad because there was at least some discussion, but this one was pretty awful and to me seemed like just plain complaining
The only unit Zerg has that comes close to being able to engage this ball happens to be the Corruptor, anything else just gets obliterated and is less effective to consider counter-composing. Just think about what units Zerg has and how'd they actually fare against Colossi/Voidray. Anything on the ground excluding Ultras die to Colossi. Voidrays destroy broodlords, ultralisks, and perform well against corruptors. A simple addition of phoenixes destroy mutalisks. What's the most effective unit left? Mass Corruptors. It'd be a waste of resources to consider adding other units as they'd just die instantly before dealing any damage. I'm pretty sure they've considered a lot of different builds, strategies, and unit compositions to attempt to defend against this death ball, especially considering it's their career.
Voidray/Colossi is quite mobile and 2-base Protoss is very easy to defend against drops and mineral line harassment. The only reason this is really even being considered imbalanced is because the relative ease of obtaining this death-ball for Protoss. If it was super hard, it'd basically be like mass carriers or mass battlecruisers.
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On February 16 2011 12:54 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:52 Karthane wrote:On February 16 2011 12:51 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know... Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL. So you are implying that Code S is not the top tier of players? I'm implying that idra being code s has nothing to do with this
That was in response to someone claiming that Artosis was not high enough level of a player to suggest something was overpowered. Read the quote, he wanted Artosis to wipe the floor with Nestea or Fruitdealer before saying that. In response, I said Idra is Code S, and he is saying its a problem.
Please don't misrepresent me. I'm not saying IdrA's word is god because he is code S.
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Lol, how can people take this seriously?
Idra and artosis commenting balance of the entire game? Two zergs? Idra, known to ragequit and call imbalance every time he loses? Really?
At least, have 1 player from each race (as a main race and known to be good at it, not like Artosis "i play protoss too lulz and it's imbalanced"), then this might have a little bit of impartiality. But until then, it's totally biased and should not be taken into consideration (unless they change the name of the show to "zerg QQ").
User was banned for this post.
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Corruptor / Infested Terran?
w/ a couple overseerers?
What about instead of going mass corruptors to deal with everything, make only enough corruptors for the Collosus, and make 5-8 infestors. When the infestors have full energy, use all of it on infected terran to kill the voidrays. You may have to sacrifice corruptors to focus fire down the Collosus or to at least bring down the numbers. But One infestor with full energy makes A LOT of infected terran all while not using larva or spending money on the terran units.
sending overseerers may be all that you need to have the corruptors quickly kill any observers, why do this? stopping Void-rays and Collosus from attacking your infestors while they are burrowed, Infestors can shoot out infected terran while they stay burrowed keeping infestors alive to build more energy.
I suppose it would come down to positioning the infestors to be behind the protoss army, and other details. Hey it may not work either, but it got me thinking that infested terran might work well against void rays.
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On February 16 2011 12:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
You make the Mutas and do as much as you can with them until they inevitably die, hopefully in the back of the Protoss base while your ground army is hitting the front.
I think this is what they really avoided saying. They kept saying that a 200/200 zerg army will lose to a 200/200 protoss army, then they kept trying to find out how to win in a all-out head-on attack.
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On February 16 2011 12:57 LenfaL wrote:
Idra and artosis commenting balance of the entire game? Two zergs? Idra, known to ragequit and call imbalance every time he loses? Really?
To be fair, Artosis is now toss.
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On February 16 2011 12:56 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:54 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:52 Karthane wrote:On February 16 2011 12:51 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know... Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL. So you are implying that Code S is not the top tier of players? I'm implying that idra being code s has nothing to do with this Well obviously it sets him apart from just any random Zerg player. How does it not affect the validity of his statements?
The only thing his code S affects is the way people like you view his opinion. Some people take his word as if God said so himself. What I am saying is that whenever idra talks about balance, its 70% about nerfing the race that he is losing to and 30% about buffing zerg. Thus, reducing the validity of his statements to some random zerg, aka you.
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The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of Queen/Ling/Spine/Muta and eventually infestor.
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On February 16 2011 12:54 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:51 Ballistixz wrote:
ppl that are saying "go mass muta" have no idea how much a void+stalker+sentry composition rapes mutas. it rapes them so hard that its not funny. the DPS of that comp is just to high for mutas alone to deal with. they wont ever need to make 1 phoenix. To have that kind of composition, they must skip Collossus. If they don't have that, the problem is not VR/Collossus. I'm sorry, but to have a significant amount of stalkers/sentries, the deathball isn't a problem, as it isn't coming.
you dont have to skip colls. you dont need that many sentries and stalkers to deal with the mutas because the voids already do good DPS against them. sure mutas own void rays in a void ray vs muta fight, but with ground to air support units backing void rays up makes them insanely more powerful. and you dont need to invest that much into the sentries. infact you dont need sentries at all tbh.
so really all you would need is Void+colls+some stalkers as filler. and like idra and artosis said this is only on 2 base. there is nothing stoping them from taking a 3rd base in order for them to support even more units.
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8751 Posts
And I'd just like to make one more point, which is sort of hypocritical: I don't think these types of discussions are incredibly useful for high level players. And if they're not useful for us, they're not useful for anyone. What high level players need are refined build orders. The specifics are what win games, or they are at least equally essential to overarching strategies and general unit compositions. How much effort has been put into every kind of response to this build? 10 games of each approach from a handful of players? I doubt even that much. And that wouldn't be enough. Even when you know a certain strategy works well and people are already successfully doing it, it can take a progamer 30+ games to really master it.
Basically, it's hard for me to believe that Zergs have been able to execute responses well enough, with the type of refinement and precision that an S-Class progamer puts into the builds he'll use for a starleague finals, such that any conclusions can be made. Conclusions about the strength of the build relative to other builds are premature. Conclusions about balance are beyond reach. It doesn't matter if tip top players are the ones playing these games. If they aren't doing what they need to do to play at a tip top level, their opinions and experiences are as irrelevant as the diamond league players.
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On February 16 2011 12:59 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:56 Karthane wrote:On February 16 2011 12:54 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:52 Karthane wrote:On February 16 2011 12:51 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know... Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL. So you are implying that Code S is not the top tier of players? I'm implying that idra being code s has nothing to do with this Well obviously it sets him apart from just any random Zerg player. How does it not affect the validity of his statements? The only thing his code S affects is the way people like you view his opinion. Some people take his word as if God said so himself. What I am saying is that whenever idra talks about balance, its 70% about nerfing the race that he is losing to and 30% about buffing zerg. Thus, reducing the validity of his statements to some random zerg, aka you.
Not sure what your point is...of course the fact that he is one of the best Zergs in the world affects the way i view his opinion. And if you actually watch the video he and Artosis bring up legitimate concerns. This isn't just them whining. They are actually discussing and bouncing ideas off of each other.
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On February 16 2011 13:02 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
And I'd just like to make one more point, which is sort of hypocritical: I don't think these types of discussions are incredibly useful for high level players. And if they're not useful for us, they're not useful for anyone. What high level players need are refined build orders. The specifics are what win games, or they are at least equally essential to overarching strategies and general unit compositions. How much effort has been put into every kind of response to this build? 10 games of each approach from a handful of players? I doubt even that much. And that wouldn't be enough. Even when you know a certain strategy works well and people are already successfully doing it, it can take a progamer 30+ games to really master it.
Basically, it's hard for me to believe that Zergs have been able to execute responses well enough, with the type of refinement and precision that an S-Class progamer puts into the builds he'll use for a starleague finals, such that any conclusions can be made. Conclusions about the strength of the build relative to other builds are premature. Conclusions about balance are beyond reach. It doesn't matter if tip top players are the ones playing these games. If they aren't doing what they need to do to play at a tip top level, their opinions and experiences are as irrelevant as the diamond league players.
I agree with you, what needs to happen is that they leave it open and say the meta-game is always changing. I think IdrA and Artosis could say it is plausible that this will become an imbalanced strategy that needs a patch in the future, but it is too early to tell.
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On February 16 2011 13:02 Ballistixz wrote:
you dont have to skip colls. you dont need that many sentries and stalkers to deal with the mutas because the voids already do good DPS against them. sure mutas own void rays in a void ray vs muta fight, but with ground to air support units backing void rays up makes them insanely more powerful. and you dont need to invest that much into the sentries. infact you dont need sentries at all tbh.
so really all you would need is Void+colls+some stalkers as filler. and like idra and artosis said this is only on 2 base. there is nothing stoping them from taking a 3rd base in order for them to support even more units.
If we're talking about mass muta, I doubt building stalkers from two warp gates is gonna cut it. I mean, it is possible. But I doubt it.
As for the whole 2 base thing, I think that the moment you take your third would be where you are very vulnerable. As much as some say that VR/Collo is "mobile", VR are still really slow air units (fun fact: they are as slow as off-creep hydras). Defending three bases with only VR vs Mutas isn't gonna be great (chances are you're gonna split your army). You can add stalkers to the mix, but non-blink stalkers aren't that great at defending three bases.
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On February 16 2011 13:02 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
And if they're not useful for us, they're not useful for anyone.
I suppose it makes for somewhat interesting discussion, if anything.
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I think Tyler just ended this thread.
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Awesome video. I appreciate the time you guys are putting into this -- it's important to discuss game mechanics, especially if things are imbalanced.
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Tyler, I think this is more about brainstorming constructive criticism of flaws in the game at a high level of play. I doubt Blizzard can get better feedback than what is happening here. If you are completely happy with every unit and feature of this game then fine, denounce this thread. I think it could be better.
I do think that these sort of threads should change direction to finding solutions to imbalance that are 1) fun 2) not retarded 3) simple.
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On February 16 2011 13:03 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:59 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:56 Karthane wrote:On February 16 2011 12:54 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:52 Karthane wrote:On February 16 2011 12:51 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know... Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL. So you are implying that Code S is not the top tier of players? I'm implying that idra being code s has nothing to do with this Well obviously it sets him apart from just any random Zerg player. How does it not affect the validity of his statements? The only thing his code S affects is the way people like you view his opinion. Some people take his word as if God said so himself. What I am saying is that whenever idra talks about balance, its 70% about nerfing the race that he is losing to and 30% about buffing zerg. Thus, reducing the validity of his statements to some random zerg, aka you. Not sure what your point is...of course the fact that he is one of the best Zergs in the world affects the way i view his opinion. And if you actually watch the video he and Artosis bring up legitimate concerns. This isn't just them whining. They are actually discussing and bouncing ideas off of each other.
1) Day9 isn't code S, but I would take his word over Idra's any day of the week. I'm in Masters league and I would take my word over Idra's any day of the week too. Actually, I would take most Master league zerg's words over Idra's because Idra is so bias that I'd never be able to take anything he says without first really thinking of it. I would never accept Idra's advice without skepticism because of the way he presents his points.
2) I watched the video
3) I saw how they were bouncing the ideas of imbalance off each other and snowballing it into basically: "Roach/hydra/corruptor doesn't work, mass queen ultra ling isn't viable, therefore Collosus/Voidray is imba QED"
For one thing, discussing and bouncing ideas off each other means utterly shit-fuck-all because neither of them take an objective point of view. Furthermore, given that their point of view is skewed, there should be someone with an equally skewed point of view on the other side of the arguement to warrant any video discussion that is valid. Since both are presenting from the same point of view, it means NOTHING.
EDIT: I don't know how politics work in your country, but debates in my country usually present representation from each side in order to come to a conclusion.
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great episode, i do think macro game protoss is imbalanced, their units get to a critical mass when it doesnt matter if you have a perfect 300 army.. you barely touch his army.
you should be able to attack an early expanding oponent, but zerg doesnt have many good attacking units, gateway units deal great with roaches and lings.. and hidras..so slow..and need upgrade for 6 range.. u cant go muta to harras, becouse of the danger of a 6 gate.. so .. i think a macro toss will always win.
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Liquid'Tyler is spot-on, we can see that he actually has the mindset of a genuine progamer.
Sorry for the one-liner but I can't think of anything meaningful to add.
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On February 16 2011 09:32 gogatorsfoster wrote:
mutas are good vs voids and collosus, so whats the problem.
Am I being dumb or does anybody else think this
mutas are so fucking bad vs rays your post is laughable and against coll they are obviously good except the stalkers and vr around the coll will RAPE your mutas.
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On February 16 2011 13:02 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
And I'd just like to make one more point, which is sort of hypocritical: I don't think these types of discussions are incredibly useful for high level players. And if they're not useful for us, they're not useful for anyone. What high level players need are refined build orders. The specifics are what win games, or they are at least equally essential to overarching strategies and general unit compositions. How much effort has been put into every kind of response to this build? 10 games of each approach from a handful of players? I doubt even that much. And that wouldn't be enough. Even when you know a certain strategy works well and people are already successfully doing it, it can take a progamer 30+ games to really master it.
Basically, it's hard for me to believe that Zergs have been able to execute responses well enough, with the type of refinement and precision that an S-Class progamer puts into the builds he'll use for a starleague finals, such that any conclusions can be made. Conclusions about the strength of the build relative to other builds are premature. Conclusions about balance are beyond reach. It doesn't matter if tip top players are the ones playing these games. If they aren't doing what they need to do to play at a tip top level, their opinions and experiences are as irrelevant as the diamond league players.
I agree with this.
I'd like to add that these type of discussions aren't actually helpful for lower level players either because they just get trapped into "its imba, wait for nerf" mindset and basically just turn on the whine instead of trying to find a way around it.
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EPT
