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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 11:59 ikarigendo wrote:
(disclaimer: I'm only a diamond player)
I agree with their proposed solution, that corrupters be buffed. Right now, corrupters are TERRIBLE against void rays, which is funny because corrupters can only attack air while voids can attack everything.
Let's totally forget that Void Rays cost a whole 100 more mineral / 50 gas, have two less armor, take 50% more time to build, and cost one more supply (they're also slower)
(they do have a combined 150hp/100shields, which is more than the corrupter 200hp, I guess)
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On February 16 2011 12:02 cca1ss1e wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:59 ikarigendo wrote:
(disclaimer: I'm only a diamond player)
I agree with their proposed solution, that corrupters be buffed. Right now, corrupters are TERRIBLE against void rays, which is funny because corrupters can only attack air while voids can attack everything. Sure and phoenixes can't hit ground, but mutas can hit both.. :D
Yeah but phoenixes can pick up ground units to shoot at them. I don't really like trying to compare units. The game is special because it isn't a horrible mirror match-up every game, units are unique.
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Void ray col is not that dangerous if you engage in the right place
Also Nestea has proved to beat these by doing an early hydra drop
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On February 16 2011 11:26 ProfessorCold wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 09:52 StarcraftMan wrote:On February 16 2011 09:32 NearPerfection wrote:
Lol... Future episodes of imbalance! Viking Marauder imbalanced!, Carrier Archon Imbalanced!, Zealot/Sentry/Stalker Imbalanced! But one unit combo will never be on this show, Roach/Hydra...
I think u2 should go more in depth because it seems like alot of ur conclusions are based on "i feel". That's the problem. Artosis and Idra will never focus on the imbalance of Zerg unit. This show is really disappointing because of its bias. After reading this comment I just had to respond. There is an obvious reason why they don't focus on the imbalance of Zerg units - it's because Zerg isn't overpowered, it's underpowered. These two know the game in and out, and they can clearly tell that Protoss and Terran are significantly more powerful than Zerg right now. It honestly isn't because they're balanced, because these two aren't dishonest people. Idra is one of the most honest people I could think of, when on earth does he say something he doesn't honestly believe? There are obvious problems in Starcraft II, and these would mostly be solved by buffing Zerg.
Just believe he honestly believe something is true doesnt mean it is true. In scbw idra believed toss+cannon+expansion=op, but yet there aren't any dominating protoss like zerg or terran and toss is often considered the weakest race. They might be telling the "truth" they believe in. However, these truth is not facts.
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On February 16 2011 11:59 ikarigendo wrote:
(disclaimer: I'm only a diamond player)
I agree with their proposed solution, that corrupters be buffed. Right now, corrupters are TERRIBLE against void rays, which is funny because corrupters can only attack air while voids can attack everything.
Not as terrible as most people thing. It takes roughly 2 corruptors to kill a void ray, thats 250/150/3 vs 300/200/4. Its not cost efficient but its not terrible by any means. Obviously being precharged and upgrades and such will change this balance, but a slight inefficiency is fine as long as you can reinforce with a stronger econ after.
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This is the top rated comment on page.
Is there any source for it?
CORRUPTOR IS GETTING BUFFED. They are making it do +4 damage to armored, but removing its bonus vs massive (info from Slush that he got from dustin). Fungal Growth is going to last 4sec down from 8sec but do the same damage, and it will do MORE damage vs armored. And stim research timing is going to get increased. PLEASE thumbs this up so Artosis/Idra can see.
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Is every decent deathball build of Protoss imbalance? And people act like they want us to do something other than 4gate.
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mutas might beat this unit composition but the protoss just kills you with a gateway timing push if you try and go muta.
this is why muta ling fell out of popularity in this matchup a long time ago.
the protoss is already going gateways anyway, and with chronoboost they WILL have enough units to just steamroll you if you try.
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On February 16 2011 12:14 red_b wrote:
mutas might beat this unit composition but the protoss just kills you with a gateway timing push if you try and go muta.
this is why muta ling fell out of popularity in this matchup a long time ago.
the protoss is already going gateways anyway, and with chronoboost they WILL have enough units to just steamroll you if you try.
Even with many queens and crawlers? Also isn't this a build you at least kind of scout you see phoenix, ob or whatever that's alot of waste in a sense at the start and you should be able to cope with it no? It's not as if you need to go directly into muta but go into it if you see them forming this army.
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On February 16 2011 09:17 shaunnn wrote:
surely mass corrupters destroy this, i can understand trouble with mothership in pvz but not this:/
lol
maybe you should have just even a little bit of knowledge of something before you talk
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On February 16 2011 12:14 red_b wrote:
the protoss is already going gateways anyway, and with chronoboost they WILL have enough units to just steamroll you if you try.
If he goes heavy gateways, the deathball is going to be WAYYYYYYY delayed. It probably be on two bases, or he has to heavily cut units at some point.
You just can't support tons of gateway + 2stargate + robo on two bases.
EDIT: He also loses on the phoenix scout and the early observer.
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1543 Posts
On February 16 2011 12:14 red_b wrote:
mutas might beat this unit composition but the protoss just kills you with a gateway timing push if you try and go muta.
this is why muta ling fell out of popularity in this matchup a long time ago.
the protoss is already going gateways anyway, and with chronoboost they WILL have enough units to just steamroll you if you try.
It fell out of favour with zergs who never scouted and just blindly went muta/ling no matter what the protoss did, because protoss players started to respond with mass gateway units. Now those same zergs are blindly going roach/hydra, and wondering why they keep getting rolled by colossus armies.
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Discuss, my minions! Go forth and discuss!
All joking aside, this sounds like the opportune time we have been waiting for to get a real ability added to the corrupter. Imagine the pheonix with a 20% increase damage ability instead of gravitron beam. It would be useless. There are entire builds centered around the phoenix, but not the corruptor.
The zerg army needs to be able to use corruptors to punish large amounts of air based anti-ground with only a few ground-to-ground.
Potential corruptor abilities:
- Blind like the medic in SC1, except the corruptor latches its tentacles onto whatever ground unit it targets. Units with corruptors latched on have a 40% chance to miss, and grant no vision (keep in mind the corruptor can be killed by other units at this point).
- Creep Bomb projectiles which explode at the target, like fungal growth. This spreads creep around the size of a PF, slowly reducing in size. This allows for units like hydras or zerglings to more easily retreat and attack.
These abilities would be preferably be both implemented. The former ability would be used in situations mentioned in the video.
The latter ability would be used to increase zerg mobility temporarily. This is to keep corruptors useful if an enemy fakes going air and instead goes, lets say, stalkers.
Both abilities would take energy and the corruptor would have to be buffed for losing 20% damage.
The corruptor right now is like a pheonix that has 20% less damage, and no ability but a debuff that increases damage back to normal. It isn't a fun unit and should be changed.
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Was not expecting much when I saw the title. In IMYongHwa's game, Artosis was surprised at the build and said it was the first time he had seen that build, meanwhile I'm sure 70% of the viewers had seen or heard of this build before. Should have gave Idra more airtime.
I have been experimenting with this build since over a month ago (way before artosis), there are definitely solutions to this as zerg. I went through a period of dominance just like how artosis is going through but then soon zergs will start learning things that make this build kind of weak. I can say with 100% certainty his opponents are responding incorrectly if he is going void/colo off two base (ladder maps mind you) and managing to win. IMO the 'standards' have not been fully developed yet so in a month or so, when they have been much more figured out, artosis will revisit this video and disagree with what he said.
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I feel like all Zergs are trying to counter this with a unit composition with only a couple units. Think about it Protoss has typically 4 main units in this ball, stalker, sentry, collusus and void ray. Most Zergs are trying to counter this with just corrupter or something like roach corrupter. I feel if zerg tried to diversify with different 4 unit combinations they could counter this. I'm not saying this ball is OP or not, I just feel like Zerg is looking for somewhat of a quick and easy fix. Although corrupter broodlord does fairly well against this composition getting the perfect numbers of each is very tough.
So overall I think Zerg should be trying more unit combinations with 4 units. (corrupter broodlord roach with bling drops?) As well as use the spells that are given to them. Most Zergs I go up against have all these corrupters, and don't even use corruption. Its not the greatest spell but the damage bonus with 12+ corrupters will definitly make a difference. Add some baneling drops on the stalker ball to weaken them, and contaminate to slow down the production of the beefy units, aka void rays and collusus. I understand this requires way more effort from the zerg but these tactics would definitly help out. And feel these should be given more thought and testing before any balance changes are made.
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Mass mutas is the best way to stop this...
And if you go mass mutas and he switches to phoenix then you cut the number of VR and give yourself a chance to win the battle upon remax.
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On February 16 2011 09:17 shaunnn wrote:
surely mass corrupters destroy this, i can understand trouble with mothership in pvz but not this:/
it doesnt. like they said if they see you going mass corruptors then all the toss needs to do is add in more stalkers. because after all, corruptors cant atk ground units.........
so mass corruptors isnt the best way to go at all. not onlyy that but voids rays alone are good against corruptors because of the bonus dmg to armored and the charge.
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On February 16 2011 12:18 Aerakin wrote:
If he goes heavy gateways, the deathball is going to be WAYYYYYYY delayed. It probably be on two bases, or he has to heavily cut units at some point.
there is no deathball.
there is only you dying to his push before you get your mutas in any real number.
the pros are not going mutas in PvZ for a reason. argue against that all you like, but it's an unconvincing argument given what Ive seen in GSL VODs, replays, streams, etc.
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I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at.
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Mutalisks.
They go for phoenix/ stalker to counter? GOOD. now they arent going for the deathball.
The answer is really simple, its mass mutas. If they just 'go' for this ball, mass mass mutas with upgrades will rape it because your anti air is well, void rays and a few stalkers. And again, if they catch wind of the mass mutas and go phoenix, then they aren't going for colossus / void ray anymore
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EPT
